1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. It 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: was an impossible dilemma in the sense that we realized 3 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 1: that any decision we made could lead to somebody's death. 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: We'd have to go through the rest of our lives 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,600 Speaker 1: knowing that someone had died because we had failed to act. 6 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: On the other hand, I had to ask myself, what 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: would it be like to go through the rest of 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 1: my life with my brother's blood in my hands. That's 9 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: David Kazinski, author of the book Every Last Tie, the 10 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: Story of the UNI Bomber and his family. David is 11 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: the younger brother of Ted Kazinski, a brilliant, troubled, reclusive 12 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: former mouth professor who began sending bombs through the mail, 13 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: in killing three people and injuring twenty three others. When 14 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: the FBI finally closed in on Ted kasins g after 15 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: a nationwide manhunt that spanned years, it was because they 16 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: received the ultimate tip the UNI Bomber's brother had turned 17 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: him in. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, 18 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: the secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we 19 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 1: keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 20 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: There were four of us in our family Mom and dad. Uh. 21 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: Dad made sausages at his uncle's delly. Mom was a 22 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: stay at home mom, at least until I get to 23 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: high school. My older brother, Ted is seven and a 24 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: half years older, was you know, idolized him. He was 25 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: kind to me. UM. But in addition, he seemed to 26 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: exemplify the family's values, which focused on integrity education. Um. 27 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: He was very very smart, skipped two grades in school, 28 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: went to Harvard at the age of sixteen on a scholarship. 29 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: Is a Q was tested it I think a hundred 30 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: and sixty seven at one. So you know, he represented 31 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: everything that I wanted to be at that point in 32 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: my life. And I never doubted for a moment that 33 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: I was loved by any of my three family members. 34 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm very very grateful for that. And 35 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: I have to say, you know, our our parents values. 36 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: There were there were two working class people, both of 37 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: whom had to drop out of school in high school 38 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 1: in order to support their families during the depression. I 39 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: had to go to work, and then they finished their 40 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: high school at night school. Sometime later. I think they 41 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: actually met in a book discussion club. So there was 42 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: this attraction to the life of mind um, a sort 43 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: of very powerful optimism, a belief that by developing your mind, 44 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: you've developed your spirit, you became someone who could really 45 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: contribute to the world. So it was part of it. 46 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: It wasn't only that I modeled myself and Ted. You know, 47 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: our family sort of had this framework of values that 48 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: it was around the life of the mind, the arts. 49 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: But even though David idealized and idolized Ted, there was 50 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: also a sense that there was another side to Ted 51 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: that had nothing to do with the families shared values 52 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: or academic achievement. There was a time a little bit 53 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: later when I asked my mom what's wrong with Teddy? 54 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: And she was a little taken aback. You know, what 55 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: do you mean, David, there's nothing with your brother? And 56 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: I said, well, he doesn't have any friends. Why is that? 57 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: Doesn't he like people and games? He did seem to 58 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: shy away from folks, you know, somebody would come over 59 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: unannounced and he would sort of leave the room quickly, 60 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: like he was upset that they arrived, a little frightened. 61 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 1: And it was then that Mom said that, you know, 62 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: Ted had had an experience as a child. He is, 63 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: at the age of nine months, he had gotten sick. 64 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: They took him to the hospital. Some kind of rash 65 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 1: had covered his body, apparently an allergic reaction, but they 66 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: couldn't diagnose it, and they kept him there for I 67 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: think well over a week, and our parents were only 68 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: allowed to visit during the regular visiting hours. Mom always 69 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 1: faulted the hospital for for that, and you know, she 70 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: felt that when they brought Teddy Holme from the hospital, 71 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: he was a very different child, at least for a while. 72 00:04:55,400 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: He didn't smile anymore, he didn't make eye contact. And 73 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,679 Speaker 1: it was at that point that my mom had said 74 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: to me, Dave, whatever you do in your life, don't 75 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: ever abandon your brother, because that's what he fears the most. 76 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: And of course I love Teddy, I said, oh, I 77 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: love Teddy. I'd never abandoned Teddy. And I remember crying 78 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 1: thinking about the pain he had suffered this a little baby. 79 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: And I think there was another lesson that my mom 80 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: sort of wove into that sort of teachable moment, and 81 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 1: the lesson was that it takes some compassions empathy to 82 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: try to understand another human being. And how old were 83 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: you when she imparted this lesson? More or less would 84 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: think I'm not exactly sure, probably somewhere between seven and 85 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: nine years old, and when you said to your mom 86 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: what's wrong with Teddy? What? What was it beyond that 87 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: he didn't seem to have any friends? What prompted you 88 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: to say that? Do you think, Oh, I don't know 89 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: that I've been that question and it's an interesting one. Um. 90 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: I think there were times when Teddy just seemed like 91 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: kind of shut down, UM, like something was bothering him, 92 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: but he wouldn't express it. A strong sense of privacy, 93 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: an introversion that was unusual, I think, at least in 94 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 1: my experience, and I tended to be a fairly social person. 95 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I had friends, you know, it was natural 96 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: for me to to be interested in people and too, 97 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: I want to interact with people, and with Teddy it 98 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: was quite different. So probably I was trying to explore 99 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: wire Teddy and I different in this way. Did you 100 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: share a room? We did for a while until I 101 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: was maybe six or seven years old, and then our father, Um, 102 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: we had an attic that was unfinished. We had moved 103 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: at from Chicago out to one of the suburbs when 104 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: I was about three years old, and my father finished 105 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: the attic and you know, a beautiful knotty Pine just 106 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: made it another story of the house, and then that 107 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: became Ted's room, so that he and I weren't together 108 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: in a small bedroom. You know. In some ways it 109 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: was wonderful for Teddy. On the other hand, it became 110 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: a very very convenient escape for him. So on those 111 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: occasions when he wanted to avoid company, he would just 112 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: walk up the stairs up to his attic. And you know, 113 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: I call it an attic. It wasn't like it was, 114 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: you know, some place of banishment. It was very very nice, 115 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: nice room up there. Ted goes to Harvard as a 116 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: very young freshman. During his first year, he's identified as 117 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: a candidate for a psychological study, an experiment that Ted 118 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: took part in for three years during his undergraduate career. 119 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: The study, titled a Multiform Assessment of Personality Development among 120 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: Gifted College Men, was masterminded by a famous psychologist named 121 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: Henry Murray and was meant to measure the effects of 122 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: trauma ungifted male students. But here's the thing. In order 123 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 1: to study the trauma, first they had to inflict it. 124 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: Students were berated, emotionally and psychologically, beaten down, humiliated, these 125 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 1: students chosen for their vulnerability and high degrees of social alienation, 126 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: were purposefully being traumatized and gas lit because they weren't 127 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: told the purpose of the experiment, so they had no 128 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: idea why they were being treated. So sadistically, it's a 129 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: study that would never pass MUSTER today. At least I 130 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: hope that you know there are institutional review boards at 131 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: colleges and universities. I think that would look at a 132 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: study like this and say, no way, this is unethical 133 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: for various reasons. Um In fact, even if you go 134 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: back for the time of the study, there was the 135 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: Nuremberg Code that came out of World War Two, and 136 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: part of the code was that people should not be 137 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: harmed or deceived, and this study did both. To my brother. 138 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: He was asked by his defense attorneys, why didn't you 139 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: drop out? Why didn't you quit? And he said, well, 140 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 1: I wanted to prove I could take it, that I 141 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,560 Speaker 1: couldn't be broken. And in some ways this is so 142 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: much like Ted, because he has this kind of indomitable will, 143 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: this stubbornness, and yet what occurs to me is that 144 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: in some ways he may have been broken without realizing 145 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: it at the very least he was hardened. We didn't 146 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: know about it. Actually, Mom had had to sign a 147 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: release because Ted was only seventeen when he went into 148 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: this study, and so he needed parental permission. And Mom 149 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: is thinking, oh, you know Ted, he has some social 150 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:01,319 Speaker 1: adjustment and issues. Maybe these nice psychologists could help him. 151 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it was just the opposite. I think 152 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: there's a theme in a way running throughout this story 153 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: of misplaced trust and institutions in some way. You know, 154 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: the hospital at that time isolating a baby, I'm sure 155 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: thinking that they were doing the right thing, but you know, 156 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: with repercussions. And then Harvard itself, the idea that you know, 157 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 1: Ted would go to Harvard and find many other very 158 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: high i Q individuals just like him, and it would 159 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: be somehow a soft and gentle place, which is a 160 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: more accepting place, a more accepting place, right, And then 161 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: these psychologists under Harvard auspices who run a study like that, well, 162 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: surely that's going to be a good thing. Ted graduates 163 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: and continues his academic rise. David goes off to college himself, 164 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: and even though they're very different young men, they have 165 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: a really tight relationship for a pure of time, they 166 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: both love the woods and far At preserves, and they 167 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: go on joint camping trips. But then the summer after 168 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: David's junior year, Ted decides that he's going to quit 169 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: his job as an assistant professor at UC Berkeley. He 170 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: wrote a letter to our parents saying that he's decided 171 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: to quit that you know, he did not find mathematics fulfilling. 172 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: That in addition to that, he'd come to this conclusion 173 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: that technology that most people celebrate kind of uncritically is 174 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: actually has many, many negative consequences. And he did not 175 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 1: like the mathematics supported technology. But also on a personal level, 176 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: he wanted to get as far away from it as 177 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: is he good, and he wanted to go in and 178 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: live in the woods someplace. And I remember at that time, 179 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: I don't know if you're old enough to remember the sixties, 180 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,839 Speaker 1: but it wasn't that uncommon, you know. I think there 181 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: were time magazine had say a cover stories about people 182 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: dropping out, quote dropping out or going back to nature. 183 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: You know, there was a little bit of a movement 184 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: to countercultural movement that Ted, you know, wasn't that he 185 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: wasn't personally aligned with it, but we could understand where 186 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: he was going, and remember hearing what he was planning 187 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: to do, and I thought, oh, this is fantastic. Wow. 188 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: You know, I've always admired my brother, but this is 189 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 1: even better. I mean, how many people um get to 190 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: do what they really want to do in life instead 191 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,839 Speaker 1: of what other people expect them to do, And how 192 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: many people have the courage to follow their own deepest 193 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: instincts instead of sort of conforming with the social expectation. 194 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: So I thought it was wonderful. Our parents, you know, 195 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: were accepting. They didn't try to talk Chet out of 196 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: what he was doing. But I remember Mom saying to 197 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: me at one point, you know, they've just I don't 198 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: really think this has a lot to do with technology. 199 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: I'm afraid that the problem is that Ted doesn't doesn't 200 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: really know how to relate to people, and he's running 201 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: away from a society that he doesn't know how to 202 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: fit into. It gave me pause. That summer Ted said 203 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: he was going to go look for land up in 204 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: Canada and Alaska, and did I want to join him 205 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: in that search? And so we spent a couple of 206 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: months together camping in British Columbia. Mostly we've got up 207 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: to the Yukon. There was definitely a brotherly closeness. I 208 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: remember we took one long hike and I don't know 209 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: if it was something I ate or if it was 210 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: altitude or something, and I got a very upset stomach, 211 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: and we were like four or five miles from the 212 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: car and Ted ran back to the car to get 213 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: some tept this fault that we had there, and ran 214 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: came all the way back to help me so that 215 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: I could feel better. You know, there was a kindness 216 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: in him towards me that I always sensed, but there 217 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: were also the times when he was very shut down 218 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: and I didn't know what to make of it. I 219 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: remember sitting around the campfire one morning and he just 220 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: looking into the flames and he stopped talking, and I 221 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: asked him a few questions and he just didn't respond. 222 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: It was like a stone there and that. So I 223 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: went off and took a walk, and by the time 224 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: I got back, he was back to talking again, and 225 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: I asked him, you know, what was that about. What 226 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you answer me? Says So I was just 227 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: just deeply thinking. So I accepted it. But there were 228 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: a couple of times when he was in a state 229 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: that Gosh seemed close to what you would call catatonicum, 230 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: and I sometimes wondered, if, you know, if he was 231 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: coming to terms with the idea that you know, maybe 232 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: Mom was right, maybe the really wasn't the answer just 233 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: running away. Both David and Ted are drawn as young 234 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: men to living solitary lives, but that, it seems, is 235 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 1: where the similarity between them ends. While Ted seems to 236 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: be pushing further and further away into a world that 237 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: appears dangerously hermetic, with nothing but the contents of his 238 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: own mind for company. David's solitary time has more of 239 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 1: a feeling of a pilgrimage. Ted's in Montana, David's in 240 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: a small cabin in the Texas Desert. The brothers are 241 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: both geographically, psychologically, and spiritually on very different paths. Ted 242 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: is becoming angrier, more and more hostile. He's written a 243 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: series of terrible letters to their parents, blaming them for everything, 244 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: cutting off all contact. David uses his time to arrive 245 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: at a deep sense of self knowledge, and eventually he 246 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: comes to realize that he's in love with his old 247 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: friend from childhood, Linda, and that he wants to marry her, 248 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: and so David writes to Ted to tell him the 249 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: good news. At one point I told him that I 250 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: was going to be leaving the desert. I said, be 251 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: happy for me. I finally found the person I want 252 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: to get married to. It's it's Linda Patrick, this girl 253 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: I've known since elementary school. And he just wrote this 254 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: very cruel letter. He had never met Linda, and yet 255 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: he was saying, it's obvious, just David, just from your letter, 256 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: that she's a horrible person. You know she's going to 257 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: take advantage of you. But no, you never listened to 258 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: my advice. So um, you know, it's just too painful 259 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: for me to be your brother anymore. So don't don't 260 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: contact me. I don't want to have anything to do 261 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: with you anymore. It was just a shock and surprised 262 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: to me, although I had some precedent with his sort 263 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: of out of the blue abuse of letters to our parents, 264 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: angry letters to our parents. And also puts you in 265 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: a situation where by choosing to love another person, you're 266 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: losing this person who you love deeply. Yeah, and it's 267 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of like was Ted thinking that 268 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: love is finite. You know that it's like a piece 269 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,239 Speaker 1: of pie, and if Linda gets a piece, he has 270 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: less um. Now love isn't like that, it's it can 271 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: expand um amazingly. You know, I thought maybe he just 272 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: didn't understand that, maybe he felt abandoned in some way, 273 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: and again my mother's request but I never abandoned came 274 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 1: to mind at that point. But I was also pretty angry. 275 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: I have to admit thinking, how dare he? You know, 276 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: our parents were just I think, lovely parents and kind 277 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: to him and generous to him, and he hurt them 278 00:17:55,240 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: terribly and now he's lashing out as another person. But 279 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: I love as it turned out from his diaries later. Ever, 280 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: of course, nobody ever read his diaries until after he 281 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: was arrested and the defense team and asked me to 282 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,959 Speaker 1: read through his diaries. It was like thirty thousand pages 283 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: of diaries. It was unbelievable, um, But it was like 284 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: opening a window into a tortured soul because I realized 285 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: he had this tremendous longing for human contact, for companionship, 286 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 1: would have liked nothing better than to be married and 287 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: to have a family. We'll be back in a moment 288 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 1: with more family secrets. David and Linda Settle into married life. 289 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: David works as an assistant director of a shelter for 290 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 1: runaway and homeless youth. Linda is a professor of philosophy 291 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: at a local college. He and Ted are completely estranged. 292 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,959 Speaker 1: David's never even heard of the unibomber. Remember these are 293 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: pre internet days, where news stories are run the old 294 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: fashioned way, the literal actual newspaper, or, if the story 295 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: is big enough, the nightly broadcast news. David and Linda 296 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: are living in Schenectady, New York, and it's before the 297 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,120 Speaker 1: unibomber story makes headlines near them after a mail bomb 298 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: kills New Jersey advertising executive Thomas Masser. At this time, 299 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: the unibomber contacts several national newspapers and asks them to 300 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: publish what he refers to as his manifesto. He says 301 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 1: that if his manifesto is published, the bombs will stop. 302 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: So then Linda, who's never met your brother, has this 303 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:52,239 Speaker 1: kind of lightning Boltova thought, And as to you, I 304 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: think that Ted maybe the unibomber, and I was very 305 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: moved by the way at the two of you navigated 306 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: that whole period of time after the manifesto was published, 307 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: because your your initial response was that that was completely 308 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: out of the question, of which, of course it was. 309 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 1: Of course it was. But then you read the manifesto 310 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: and somewhere within you a tiny little sliver of doubt 311 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 1: creeps in. There's a phrase that I came across when 312 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 1: I was writing my most recent book. It's a psychoanalytic phrase, 313 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 1: and it's the unthought known. What we what we know, 314 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 1: but it's a live wire. We cannot it's way too 315 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 1: dangerous to think. And so you're somewhere in the territory 316 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,400 Speaker 1: of the unthought known, and you and Linda are parsing, 317 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 1: you know, the manifesto, looking for clues, and at the 318 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: same time it's like played out against this backdrop of 319 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: this profound impossible choice. When you finally do reach the 320 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: sense that it's possible, you know that it's possible that 321 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: Ted is the UNI bomber. I mean, can you talk 322 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: a little bit about that. Of course I had talked 323 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,719 Speaker 1: a bit about my brother a lot. Perhaps Linda had 324 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: many questions why he didn't come to the wedding. I 325 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: hadn't showed her the letter that Ted had written to 326 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 1: me because it was so awful. But you know, I 327 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: remember some years earlier it was shortly after our father died. 328 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: Ted reconnected with my mom briefly. Um she invited him 329 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: to explain a little bit about why he had been 330 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: so angry before, and then he wrote a letter that 331 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: just sailed off back into that anger. And Mom sent 332 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,919 Speaker 1: me the letter. I showed it to Linda. Remember this 333 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,239 Speaker 1: is years before David or Linda have ever heard the 334 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: term unibomber. Linda's looking at this letter. This is in 335 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: so it's shortly after we're married. She's looking at this 336 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 1: letter and she says, she looks up at me and 337 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: she says, Dave, you know your brother is sick, don't you. 338 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 1: I mean he's mentally ill. And I said, no, no no, no, no, 339 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: he's really really smart. He's got a you know, a 340 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: genius like you, and this is the way he thinks. 341 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: And Linda said, David, look at this passage. You know, 342 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: people who are healthy in their minds don't think like this. 343 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: She actually persuaded me at that point to bring some 344 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: of my brother's letters to a psychiatrist who we knew socially, 345 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: and his viewpoint was that yes was sick. He said 346 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: he couldn't make a diagnosis based on some letters, but 347 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: possibly it was schizophrenia, which ends up being because eventual diagnosis. 348 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: So now we're in the mid nineties, you and a 349 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: bomber has been at it for you. Between ninety he 350 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: placed or mailed sixteen bombs that killed three people and 351 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: injured twenty three others. Linda reads his manifesto and she's 352 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: able to have the clarity of thought that this letter 353 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 1: and the letter she read and had analyzed by the 354 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: psychiatrist years earlier, may well have been written by the 355 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: same person. Yeah, I mean, it was an impossible dilemma 356 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: in the sense that we realized that any decision we 357 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: made could lead to somebody's death, and my brother was 358 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 1: the un obamber. Of course, we didn't know at this 359 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 1: point that if it turned out he was and another 360 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: person was killed, we'd have to go through the rest 361 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: of our lives knowing that someone had died because we 362 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: had failed to act. On the other hand, at this 363 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: point in time, the un obamber was like public enemy 364 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: number one, and if he was sentenced to death and executed, 365 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: I had to ask myself, what would it be like 366 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: to go through the rest of my life with my 367 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 1: brother's blood in my hands. You know, Ultimately we realized 368 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 1: there was one thing we could control. We could save 369 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 1: the next person's life. We could set the violence, and 370 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: then maybe, since you know, we had some evidence, we'd 371 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 1: already gone to a psychiatrist, maybe we could convince the 372 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: Justice Department that Ted was mentally ill and that there 373 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: was reason to mitigate the sentence of death, and maybe 374 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: he could get a prison sentence. Sad anyway, that was 375 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: the hope. I'm struck again and again by the care 376 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: and thoughtfulness David and Linda put into their impossible decision. 377 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: They want to be certain, or at least as certain 378 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: as possible. Linda's oldest friend is a private detective, and 379 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 1: she submits one of Ted's letters anonymously to an expert 380 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: in forensic analysis of language. The expert comes back at 381 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: that the author of a letter and the author of 382 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: the manifesto are one and the same person. Her father 383 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: was gone at this point, but Mom was still alive, 384 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: and we had another choice to make. Do we do 385 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 1: involved Mom and this, Do we tell her what's going on? 386 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,120 Speaker 1: Do we ask her advice? Certainly she was a stakeholder 387 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: in this thing, But you know, my sense at the 388 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: time was, oh my god, I just can't this could 389 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: kill mom, And what if Ted's innocent? You know that 390 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: her paying her sleeplessness would be for nothing. Anyway. I 391 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: don't know if that was the right decision, but we 392 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: decided to go forward without telling them. But then ultimately, 393 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: when it turns out that it is Ted and that's 394 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: been confirmed and it's about to be public, you you 395 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 1: go to your mom and she reacts really remarkably right right. 396 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: I mean, it's probably my defining memory of my mother. 397 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 1: I mean, of all the memories I have of her, 398 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: but the moment that I told her that I suspected 399 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: Ted and that I had gone to the authorities, she 400 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: looked at me for a moment like she just couldn't 401 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 1: believe what she was hearing. And then she, you know, 402 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: she got up and came up to me and put 403 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: her arms around my She was very short woman, like 404 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: five ft tall and about six ft tall, and so 405 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: she had to kind of pull me down and put 406 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: a kiss on my cheek, and then she said, David, 407 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: I can't imagine what you've been struggling with. But then 408 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: she said the thing that I most needed to hear. 409 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: She said, David, I know that you loved Ted. I 410 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: know that you wouldn't have done this unless you truly 411 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: felt that you had to, And that was that was 412 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,479 Speaker 1: the greatest relief I could have experienced at that moment. 413 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: It was just amazing, and in some sense too, it 414 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: exemplified the family values. The values were raised with to 415 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: do the right thing. So David and Linda do the 416 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: right thing. They are promised they'll be treated as confidential informants, 417 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: that their names not be revealed publicly, But then the 418 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: opposite happens. Their suburban home is surrounded by reporters and 419 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: camera crews. Their names and faces are plastered everywhere. Someone 420 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:34,360 Speaker 1: in the huge chain of people, who I guess had 421 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: knowledge of this, made a mistake. At this point, they 422 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 1: had investigators planted in the woods around my brother's cap 423 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: and apparently, from what I understand, one of them revealed 424 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: things we should not have revealed to a person in 425 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: the media. We were, in a sense barricaded in our house. 426 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: At one point, there was this reporter who got up 427 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: on a little ladder and tried to film something inside 428 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,199 Speaker 1: our house through one of our windows, and and I 429 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: remember Linda putting a blanket over all the lower four 430 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: windows to block the media's few of us, and you know, 431 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: people were asking themselves questions like what kind of a 432 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: family would produce the univalm or what kind of a 433 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 1: brother would turn in his own brother. But there was 434 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: one of the late night comedians, I think I didn't 435 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: see this myself. I guess he thought it was being funny, 436 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 1: but he says, yeah, I think of this um in 437 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: one family. You've got the un Obama and the Unite snitch. Yeah, man, 438 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: I thought that was called. When the authority surrounded and 439 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: then swarmed Ted's cabin in the woods, any lingering doubts 440 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: that David and Linda might have harbored about whether turning 441 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: him in was indeed the right thing, we're starkly addressed. 442 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: Among the incriminating evidence found was another live bomb beneath 443 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: Ted's bed, wrapped up, ready to be mailed to someone. 444 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: But though one very hard part of this story is over, 445 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: Ted is a UNI bomber, he's now been arrested and 446 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: can cause no more harm, another new, very hard part 447 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: of this story has yet to unfold, a hard part 448 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: that eventually becomes a beautiful part. David and Linda begin 449 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: reaching out to Ted's victims, so does David's mom for 450 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: a family who has always been set on trying to 451 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: do the right thing, the ethical thing. It seems the 452 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: next logical step, if anything here can be called logical. 453 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: One of these victims is a man named Gary Wright. 454 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: One February morning, Gary Wright pulled into the parking lot 455 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: of a computer company he owned in Salt Lake City. 456 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: A piece of lumber appeared to be in his way, 457 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: and when he went to move it, a homemade bomb 458 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: blew up, grievously, injuring him. He went through three surgeries, 459 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: spent three years in and out of casts, and had 460 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: two hundred pieces of shrapnel removed. It was years before 461 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: that bomb was connected to the unit bomber. I gave 462 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: him a call and, UM, you know, my heart skin 463 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: of in my throat, and at this point I'm trying 464 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: to think what am I going to say, and don't 465 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: want it to be too rehearsed. I wanted to be natural. 466 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: And then I get this voice that says, you have 467 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: reached the right house at the wrong time, please leave 468 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: the enough So I wasn't prepared for that, but I awkwardly, 469 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: you know, said you know my name is David Kazinski. 470 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: I think you know who I am, and I would 471 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: like to talk to you. If you're open to that, 472 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: I'll try calling that. And then a few days later 473 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: I called back and again I didn't didn't get Gary directly. 474 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: I think it was his daughter and I heard her say, Dad, 475 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: you know, some of these un a line for you, 476 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: And then Gary came up. Though most of Ted's victims 477 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: and their families wanted nothing to do with anyone named Kazynski, 478 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: Gary Wright had a very different response. I wanted to 479 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: understand what was going through Gary's head, how he was 480 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: able to afford a sense of compassion for the brother 481 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: of the man who nearly killed him. I've asked Gary 482 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: Wright to join this conversation now here on family secrets. 483 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: It was really kind of I guess for both of us, 484 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: uh nervous dance if you will, in the beginning, But 485 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: I think I quickly got over it in that I 486 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: had had quite a bit of time to process, um, 487 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: what I've been through, whereas David and his family had 488 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: much less time. So um, when we first began to speak, 489 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: you know, Dave called and said, you know, I want 490 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: to apologize on behalf of my family, um for what 491 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: had happened to you and you know, we're really sorry. 492 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: And I just told him, I said, look, David, everybody 493 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: has someone in their family they probably want to apologize for. 494 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: And I know my family probably wants to apologize for 495 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: me on a lot of fronts, maybe not at the 496 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: same level, but um, you can't carry it up the 497 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: rest of your life. And we went back and forth 498 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: a little bit and kind of chatted briefly, but I 499 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: did let him know. I said, look, sometimes you might 500 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: need to speak with someone outside of family, close friends 501 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: or whatever. Um, just even if it's the screaming get 502 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: something off your chest. And I said, feel free to 503 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: call me anytime. I mean Gary's invitation to talk at 504 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: any time, I mean it was like wow. And believe me, 505 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: he was incredibly helpful. Um. That's just the notion that, 506 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: you know, the people affected in different ways could have 507 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: something in common that we could not be divided by 508 00:32:55,520 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: our relationship to Ted. Gary was Ted's victim, as Ted's brother, 509 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: that if we could build a bridge across this chasms 510 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: abyss of human suffering, then there was hope. And I 511 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: really felt that deep in my heart. The first time 512 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: that David and Gary actually meet, David is driving across 513 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: country After Ted enters an insanity plea in court in Sacramento, California, 514 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: the plea that will ultimately spare him the death penalty, 515 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: David realizes that the drive will take him right through 516 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: Salt Lake City, where Gary lives, and with that first 517 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: meeting begins an important friendship that David describes in his 518 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:43,040 Speaker 1: book as being like virtual blood brothers. Our bond forged 519 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: through violence is as powerful and deep as any other. 520 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: He writes, nothing can compensate me for losing Ted, but 521 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: I find a poetic balance in having gained a new 522 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: brother in Gary. Our choices end up reshaping the universe, 523 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: at least the universe we know. I'm so struck by 524 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: this beautiful idea that our choices end up reshaping the universe. 525 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: We know that really could be the model for this podcast. 526 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 1: I think something that's very important when you take one 527 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: of these risks to reach out to the what people 528 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: think of is the other side, is is to do 529 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: so without a lot of expectations, Like I couldn't say 530 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: I want this from Gary, I want X, I want Y. 531 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: I guess with openness comes some vulnerability, but you have 532 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: to just be open, I think, and drop the expectations. David, 533 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: you were describing what you and Linda were afraid of 534 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 1: when the news broken. Your house is surrounding reporters are 535 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: trying to, like, you know, crawl in through every cravass 536 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: in your house, and that you know, it seems from 537 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: what I've read and watched that your friendship in both 538 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: directions has been I know I hesitate to you this word, 539 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: but you know, a healing one. Would you characterize it 540 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 1: that way? From my aspect? And I'm definitely one of 541 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: the things I think that seems to be missing or 542 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: has been pushed off to the side these days, just 543 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: in regular day life is empathy and being able to 544 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: visualize yourself in someone else's shoes. There's so much of 545 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: the inwardly focused or you know, me focused stuff out 546 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,280 Speaker 1: there that I mean, there's just not that time taken 547 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: to look at what would this be if it were me? 548 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: And I think in my case, I feel like the 549 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: ability to be empathetic with what I had seen David 550 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: and his family go through UM and being open genuinely 551 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: allowed for us to be able to have conversations and 552 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: believe me, we've had crazy conversations, but it's really cathartic 553 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: in a way, both on my end and I won't 554 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: speak for David, but it's cathartic in that Number One, 555 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: you realize there's a great human being on the other 556 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 1: side of a divide, right um, the event doesn't describe 557 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,800 Speaker 1: an entire family, even though some families are completely stigmatized 558 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: by an event that they had no control over. So 559 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 1: you realize the human on the other side and the values, 560 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 1: and you you get the opportunity to dig into what 561 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 1: really lies behind a family. And when you do that, 562 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: that's when the opportunity for friendship comes into play. And 563 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: friendship in my case, you know, I count maybe on 564 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,839 Speaker 1: two hands who I call friends, and David is one 565 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: of those. Right If I called him up and said, hey, Dave, 566 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: I need a B C or D if it was 567 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: within his power, he would do it. And if I 568 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:54,799 Speaker 1: needed him there and he could do it, he would 569 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: be there. I'm thinking a little bit about, you know, 570 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 1: the notion of rust, and it's been a bit of 571 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 1: a theme of our conversation from the beginning, and where 572 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: is that balance between you know, sort of trust and 573 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: self protection. I think if I'm going to err, I 574 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:20,800 Speaker 1: probably want to err on the side of trust. David 575 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: and Garry's friendship deepened into the two men doing healing 576 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 1: work together, appearing at speaking engagements to spread their message 577 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: of trust, healing and forgiveness. David and I have. He's 578 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 1: been really gracious to invite me to a lot of 579 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 1: events um to speak, but one of the things that 580 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 1: has always stuck in my head from day one, the 581 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 1: very first time we were ever asked to speak. I 582 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 1: can still remember. My thought process was, if I can 583 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: just shorten the amount of time that it takes a 584 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,919 Speaker 1: person to heal, and I'll do this forever. It could 585 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: be a room of five hundred, but if one person 586 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: goes away and says, wow, you made me think differently, 587 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,399 Speaker 1: or I can incorporate some of what you've been through 588 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,760 Speaker 1: into my own personal space and developed my own path forward, 589 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 1: that was pretty much my motivating factor. I feel sometimes 590 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: I'm just a human experiment on myself, on my own 591 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:21,760 Speaker 1: guinea pig, but happy to share the results. Gary describes 592 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 1: picking up the phone and taking David's call as probably 593 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 1: one of the top five decisions he's ever made in 594 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,280 Speaker 1: his life. Remember when I said earlier that something beautiful 595 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 1: would come out of all this violence, pain, and horror. 596 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,320 Speaker 1: Just think what would have been lost if Gary or David, 597 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 1: either one or both of them had shut down, Had 598 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 1: either man allowed himself to be made smaller rather than 599 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,800 Speaker 1: larger by the circumstances he found himself in, then the 600 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,720 Speaker 1: ripple effect of the peace and healing each of them 601 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,319 Speaker 1: together and separately has brought into the world would never 602 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,720 Speaker 1: have happened. You know, we we live in a culture, 603 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: be in a species that has practiced a lot of violence. 604 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, violence looks powerful because you 605 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 1: can impose on somebody else something that you know they 606 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 1: can't change, and it may be irreversible. Violence has this 607 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,879 Speaker 1: illusion of power. But I think one thing that I 608 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,280 Speaker 1: feel I've truly learned is that violence is not powerful. 609 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: It's it's weak. It it is only destructive. It only 610 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 1: makes the world worse. Love doesn't look so powerful. I mean, 611 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: it's works in more subtle ways. It's results are not 612 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 1: immediate often. But I think I've known through my parents, 613 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 1: through Linda, through Gary, through others, so many others, that 614 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,240 Speaker 1: love is by far the more powerful force in this world. 615 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 1: And the more we recognize that love is powerful and 616 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 1: violence as week um, the better chance we'll have to 617 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 1: make this world a better place. Many thanks to David 618 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 1: Kazinski and Gary Wright for speaking with me today. David 619 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: is the author of Every Last Tie, the story of 620 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: the UNI Bomber and his family, and Gary is an 621 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,720 Speaker 1: activist and speaker. Find out more about the work Gary's 622 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:39,800 Speaker 1: doing at g B Right dot com. Family Secrets is 623 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 1: an I Heart Media production. Dylan Fagan is the supervising producer. 624 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,320 Speaker 1: Julie Douglas and beth Ann Macalouso are the executive producers. 625 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 1: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 626 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 1: get in touch with us at listener mail at Family 627 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 1: Secrets podcast dot com. You can also find us on 628 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: Instagram at day any Writer, Facebook at Family Secrets Pod, 629 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 1: and Twitter at fami Secrets Pod. For more about my 630 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:24,880 Speaker 1: book Inheritance, visit Danny Shapiro dot com. For more podcasts. 631 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,239 Speaker 1: For my Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, 632 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,320 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.