1 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: Clayton. What if I told you a medical doctor could 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: prescribe legal drugs and be charged as a drug trafficker. 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: A doctor like you're talking about a real doctor? Yeah, 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: medical doctor, not a dealer. A doctor not a dealer. 5 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: A new law means doctors are now only able to 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: write a prescription for a three day supply of opioids, or, 7 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: if medically necessary, seven days. Well, I mean, the thing 8 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: is that relying eighty percent of the people who are 9 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: getting in trouble are not prescribed these drugs. Directer regulations 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: aimed to stop people from misusing prescription drugs are leaving 11 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,919 Speaker 1: patients who use opioids responsibly with greater challenges to get 12 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: their medication. But we have made it much worse and 13 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 1: more people are dying. If I didn't have just a 14 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: little bit that I can, I can't even imagine what 15 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: I would do. I understand that people overdosed and died, 16 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: but I didn't do any of that, and I actually 17 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 1: need the medicine. I'm Greg Glode, and this is the 18 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: war on drugs playing. What's going on? Man? What's up? Greg? Doing? Great? 19 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: Really excited about this topic. I mean, one of the 20 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: things that we've learned is the drug war. You don't 21 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: have to be a drug addict, you have to be 22 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: in the criminal justice system, you don't have to be 23 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 1: involved in this stuff like it's going to impact you. 24 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: And Yeah, we were chatting before and talking about like 25 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: being back in high school and starting to hear about 26 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: like people taking pills and like these things. You're like, 27 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: what is it? And um, you know, I grew up 28 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: in a pretty white suburb, you know, outside of Annapolis, Maryland, 29 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: And was that your same experience within like the black 30 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: community as well, Like listen to this or like how 31 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: did this all? When was the first time you heard 32 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: about like oxy and opiates? And um, I'm trying to 33 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: think back when I first realized what was going on. 34 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: I guess as far as like opioid epidemic, you know, 35 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: the crack epidemic. Saw that you knew about that it 36 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: was prevalent, it was heavy in the black community, and 37 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: the opioid like, I don't guess I knew they were opioids. 38 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: I just knew people popped pills. Yeah, pill popping. Yet 39 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: for me probably going into high school, oxycodon I remember 40 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: those never partook, but remember those being a thing very 41 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: popular all this stuff around codeine, and then I guess 42 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: I didn't realize, like for black people, you know, sir 43 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 1: lean codeine, that's that's also opioid. I think a lot 44 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: of times we associate, oh, that's white people's strugs. It's like, no, 45 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: it's the same thing. Just want to just liquid it. 46 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: It might taste a little bit better. Yeah, yeah, over 47 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: ice in a styrofoam cup. It's a slushy. It is delicious. 48 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: I have to heat the summer. Have you tried lean? Yeah, yeah, 49 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: it'll definitely be a little way in here first. Man, 50 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 1: I would highly uh not recommend going out. I don't 51 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: know if I knew it was an epidemic, but I 52 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: knew something was going on with as far as people 53 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: pill popping and like being a problem. When it was 54 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: a kid at my school, I think he wrote my 55 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,920 Speaker 1: bus and he was on something, and I think somebody 56 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: asked what he was on. He told everybody that he 57 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: took the medicine that was for his cat, like it 58 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: was a cat trying. I don't know what it, but 59 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: I'm like, come on, man, you're gonna grow whiskers. You 60 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: don't know what's gonna happen. Man, you're gonna start licking yourself. 61 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: It's gonna be weird. So I knew then. I was like, 62 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: you may have a problem if you're taking medication that 63 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: was prescribed for your cat. Maybe they're getting a good 64 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: ship and we're listen, it's probably the same who's making 65 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: cat medicine. Nobody's making separate medicine for cats. That's a myth, 66 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: but it is like one of those things where like 67 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: you think it's something and then you start to learn 68 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: about it more and it's something else, because like I 69 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: think we all know some of the stories of like 70 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: Produe Pharma. They're marketing these opioids, are pushing and pushing 71 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: and saying they're not addictive. It can be addictive, and 72 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: how people are are using so much when they don't 73 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: need to just for the problem. And then you're kind 74 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: of like, all right, well let's stop prescribing these things, right, 75 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: But what we always do is like instead of just 76 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,839 Speaker 1: solving that little problem with a little scalpel, we bring 77 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: the fucking machete and we just started hacking everything to bits. 78 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: And so now people who actually need this medication to 79 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: just function can no longer get it because we have 80 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: no idea how just to like solve one problem not 81 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: exacerbate another. And so we're going to talk to my 82 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,679 Speaker 1: Salabates today. She's an amazing, amazing expert on this issue, 83 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: has her own real life experience recovering from addiction and 84 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: now works to allow people to understand like what addiction means, 85 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 1: what it is. And she's going to talk about a 86 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: lot of the complications now with the regulations and prohibition 87 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: of prescription opiates and how that's impacting people. Yeah, there's 88 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: gonna be people to abuse everything, and it's just a 89 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: shame that some of the people that need it most 90 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: got to suffer. And I think you don't have to 91 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: be a drug dealer for the port on drugs to 92 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: affect you. Yeah, I'm getting a little bit older, Clayton. 93 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've woken up out of bed a couple 94 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 1: of times with you know, backs or something like that. 95 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: Are we just one, you know, fenderbender away from needing 96 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: some sort of prescription like this? And how's that going 97 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: to impact you? You never knowe to you put in 98 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: that situation or it's one of your loved ones, right, 99 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: you gotta watch an unbearable pain. Yeah, Like I said, 100 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: really really excited about this interview myself. It's is one 101 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: of the foremost experts on addiction in the world. We're 102 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: lucky enough to be able to interview for the War 103 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: on Drugs. So everyone, I really appreciate you all listening 104 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: and tune in. Let's let's get to it. Welcome to 105 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: the War on Drugs Podcast by I'm really great to 106 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: have you here. Welcome, Thank you so much for having me. 107 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 1: I think we're living in this almost twilight zone time 108 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: with the opoid epidemic, and I see so many parallels 109 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,919 Speaker 1: with so many other wars that we fought within narcotics, 110 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 1: but this one's a little bit more unique because you know, 111 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: it's actual pharmaceuticals are being created by private entities that 112 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: are within those medical communities. I think a lot of 113 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: people are familiar with how when oxycon came out, people 114 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: were kind of misled on the potential complications of it. 115 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 1: It was seen as a less addictive opioid, which doesn't really, 116 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: you know, necessarily exist. Actually, the thing that is so 117 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: messed up about our narrative about this is that, like 118 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: every piece of it is problematic, right, it is the 119 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 1: case that longer acting opioids cause less reinforcement than shorter 120 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: acting ones. Right, when people have to do it every 121 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: five minutes, it's really a lot more reinforcing, which is 122 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: why the fentinels, which are more shorter acting, are much 123 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: more dangerous than something like methodon. So okay, Perdue lied, 124 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: and they also claimed that OxyContin acted for twelve hours 125 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: when it actually only works for eight, which was an 126 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: outright lie. But the thing that people really misunderstand about 127 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: the opioid crisis is that eighty percent of people who 128 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: misuse prescription opioids do not have a prescription for them. Right. 129 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: Eighty percent of the people who are getting in trouble 130 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 1: are not prescribed these drugs. So it wasn't like, oh, 131 00:06:57,880 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: I went to my doctor and my doctor turned me 132 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: to an addict. That is not what happened in the 133 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: vast majority of cases. The other reason that this is 134 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: the case is because ninety percent of addiction starts when 135 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: people are in their teens or early twenties, and most 136 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: people with chronic pain, speaking in broad generalities, are middle 137 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: aged or older. If you've gotten to the point of 138 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: being middle aged or older without developing any addictions, your 139 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: odds of developing one are indeed less than one percent. 140 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: The reality is people have different levels of risk, and 141 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: the level of risk that you experience in medical care 142 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: when you are older and don't have a prior addiction 143 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: is very different from the risk that is encountered by 144 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: people who are using drugs recreationally. And so if you 145 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: look at people who try heroin, the addiction rate there 146 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: is about ten to twenty percent. And why is that? 147 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: It's partially because who tries heroin People who are serious 148 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: risk takers, people who have just given up. So you're 149 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: already selecting for people who are at high risk before 150 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: they even take the drug. It's really important to recognize this, 151 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: not to say that like, oh, people in pain can 152 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: never get addicted. No, it's just to say addiction is 153 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: much more than exposure, and if we continue to see 154 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: it as exposure, we will end up doing exactly what 155 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: we're doing, which is we have cut the medical opioid 156 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: supply by sixty percent or more, and we did most 157 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: of that by cutting off people who were on high 158 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,719 Speaker 1: doses for long term. And what do we find out 159 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: when we do that to people? They are four times 160 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 1: more likely to die of overdose or suicide. So we 161 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 1: have made it much worse. And if you just look 162 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: at the numbers, opioid prescribing starts falling significantly in twenty eleven. 163 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: If you look at the line on the graph of 164 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: overdose death, it's going way up as the medical supply 165 00:08:55,559 --> 00:09:00,319 Speaker 1: goes down. In fact, more people are dying somewhere right 166 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: and so like right exactly, and we're following in the 167 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: same cycles that we always have. When the crack epidemics 168 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: started coming off, it's like, there's a problem. Things are happening. 169 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 1: What are we going to do about it. Let's get 170 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: rid of essentially treatment and just cracked on these people 171 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:15,319 Speaker 1: and throw them in prison. You saw this in the 172 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties with hair when doctors are pleading, please let 173 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: us continue to prescribe to these individuals or we're just 174 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: gonna have millions of addicts. And you're seeing the exact 175 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: same thing with this opiated epidemic. And yeah, may if 176 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: you could kind of like talk about that shift. Because 177 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: we did see that opioid overdoses were going up, we 178 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: started blaming the pharmaceutical companies and oxycoton being out there 179 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: and how that was a gateway into all these other 180 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: worst behaviors. And you slowly started seeing states put together, 181 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: you know, inventory lists of who's prescribing how much. Well, 182 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: I mean, the thing is that we're lying. We are 183 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: claiming that now that it's white people who we see 184 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: as addicted, we're not using the criminal justice system, and 185 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:57,199 Speaker 1: that's not true. What you see is we're not criminalizing 186 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: people directly. We're just cutting off their source of medical opioids. 187 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: So the people who were going to pill mills mostly 188 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: did not get arrested. The people who ran the pill 189 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: mills did get arrested, but the customers were just left. 190 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: That created this disaster. Some of the reporting in this 191 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: area focuses on how when the pill mills got shut down, 192 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: a lot of gangs began introducing heroin to rural areas 193 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: where it previously hadn't been. Yeah, we had a golden 194 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 1: opportunity every time we shut a pill mill down to 195 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: prescribe medical opioids, just to keep people from entering withdrawal 196 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: until we can stabilize themselves. Like you had all these 197 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: people's names, you have a database, you shut down a 198 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: pill mill, it's like these are the people that are 199 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: on these pills, like right here, Yeah, Like it's it's 200 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: like you know, you don't usually get a list of 201 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 1: customers from Yeah, yeah, yeah, a ledger, and the ledgers 202 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: aren't releasing Christian names of all the clients. Yeah, I 203 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: don't believe either. Yeah. And another thing that you said 204 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: was the pain patients just turning into heroin buyers or whatever. 205 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: That's actually more dangerous for them. If you're a person 206 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: who suffers from pain, now you're going to go into 207 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: a situation where people know you have money. You probably 208 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: can't fight back the best. You may even be getting 209 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: a check from the government every month, like you're a 210 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: piggy bank rolling up to shark confested waters. It's crazy. 211 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 1: So what often happens in that instance is that the 212 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: pain patients don't turn to the illegal market, but turned 213 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: to a gun and die. And I have heard many 214 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: horrible stories. One of them I remember specifically where this 215 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: guy got cut off by his doctor and his wife 216 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 1: held his hand while he shot himself because she knew 217 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: that he couldn't live like that. It's just who has 218 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 1: helped by this. It's all about let's get the numbers down. 219 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with let's actually help people. 220 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: And you know they think, like, well, we can show 221 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: that we reduced opioid prescribing by x percent. Right, well, great, 222 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: do the patients die? Yeah? The thing that's always never 223 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: brought up is patient outcome, is that becoming better with 224 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: these things? And I kind of want to nail down 225 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: on that because you mentioned the reductions and prescriptions. What 226 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: is causing this vast reduction and prescriptions, Like, what are 227 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 1: the actual factors going into denying people essentially the care 228 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: that they Yeah, well, so what basically is happening is 229 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: that the law is really vague. According to a nineteen 230 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 1: nineteen Supreme Court decision, it is not legitimate medicine to 231 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: prescribe for the comfort of somebody with addiction. It's fine 232 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: to prescribe for their comfort if they have pain, but 233 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: not if they have addiction. And this is sort of 234 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: made into the Controlled Substances Act. And right now we 235 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: have doctors who are literally being prosecuted, you did, for 236 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: prescribing to people when they believed that they were treating pain. 237 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: But the DA says it's overex dose, which was in 238 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: the CDC guidelines, and therefore it's not legitimate medicine, and 239 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: they are unconsciously becoming drug dealers. So the easy way 240 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: to deal with this is just not prescribe. And what 241 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: doctor is going to risk their license or their freedom 242 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: because some of these really difficult patients that they don't 243 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: really want to deal with it anyway, because chronic pain 244 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: is really hard to treat. We can just you know, 245 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, we don't use opiods anymore. Go to a 246 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: pain management clinic and they have waiting lists and are 247 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: not available locally in a lot of places. And also 248 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: if you're a patient and you travel to get your 249 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: pain care, that's a red flag. So the prescription drug 250 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 1: monitoring thing will flag you, and the pharmacists will say 251 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: I won't feel your prescription because you went to a 252 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: doctor in California instead of New York. It's terrified a 253 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: lot of doctors who would otherwise just maintain these patients 254 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: into cutting them off and just getting them out of 255 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: their practice. However they can. You know, I've heard about 256 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: quite a few good doctors who thought they were doing 257 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: the right thing. Sometimes they got fooled by people with addiction. 258 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 1: But doctors don't have a wide detector anymore than police 259 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: people do. Right, But again, if I fool you and 260 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: get drugs from you and going overdose. Why is that 261 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: your fault, right MAYA. One of the things that sticks 262 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: out to me is how you make a separation between 263 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: what you say are the high risk drug users addicts 264 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: versus people who actually have pain and need some type 265 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: of relief. And I think when people hear about the 266 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: world drugs, they think, you know, that doesn't have anything 267 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: to do with me. I'm not a drug user. We're 268 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: in the suburbs, My kids are good. You know what 269 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: I'm saying. The only thing I'm addicted to it Starbucks. Yeah, 270 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: lock those people up for as long as you can, 271 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: throw away the key, take away their drugs anyway necessary. 272 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: But I think everybody, at some stage in their life 273 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: it is going to come to a point where you 274 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: might have somebody in your family who has cancer. You 275 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: might have somebody who suffered like we spoke about earlier 276 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: tragic accident. And this is when I kind of realize, like, oh, 277 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: the War on drugs affects everybody, just it may not 278 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: have affected you yet. And this is one of those 279 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: instances where you can kind of clearly see that absolutely, 280 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: I mean, prescribing of opioids for terminal cancer has fallen 281 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: by forty during this period, and the CDC guidelines explicitly 282 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: exempted both cancer and sickle cell and you can be 283 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: prone to having strokes if you have that, and people 284 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: go into hospital and they are having a stroke and 285 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: the doctors think they're overdosing and they don't treat the stroke, 286 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: and if they don't have an advocate there, they can 287 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 1: die of that. I hear from these people all the time, 288 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: like from people with chronic pain and people with terminal pain, 289 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: where the pharmacist laughs at them. And one of the 290 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: things I've really tried to do is connect the harm 291 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: reduction addiction community with the chronic pain patient community, because 292 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: we really should be both on the same side. Right. 293 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: It's not that the people with addiction want nobody to 294 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: ever have opioids. I mean, one of the things that 295 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: I think is crazy is that like, Okay, you're in 296 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: the hospital, you get opioids. You're not going to grow 297 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: a drug dealer on the way out, right, Like, you know, 298 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: it's not the exposure to euphoria that turns people into 299 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: people with addiction. It's the lack of stuff in the 300 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: rest of their life exactly. Clayton wasn't cheap to get 301 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: so we had to cut a couple commercials. We'll be 302 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: right back. Somebody got a payment. Hi. I'm Jason Flam 303 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: CEO and founder of Lava for Good podcasts, Home to 304 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War on Drugs, and many 305 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: other great podcasts. Today, we're asking you, our listeners, to 306 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: take part in a survey. Your feedback is going to 307 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: help inform how we make podcasts in the future. Your 308 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: complete and candid answers will help us continue to bring 309 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: you more insightful and inspiring stories about important topics that 310 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: impact us all. So please go to Lava for Good 311 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,919 Speaker 1: dot com slash survey and participate today. Thank you for 312 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 1: your support. The War on Drugs podcast is sponsored by 313 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: Stand Together, the philanthropic community that partners with America's boldest 314 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: change makers to tackle the root causes of our country's 315 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: biggest problems. More than twenty five years ago, Alice Marie 316 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 1: Johnson experienced personal difficulties that led to single parenthood and unemployment, 317 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 1: all while grieving her son's death in a motorcycle accident. 318 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: Although she had never previously possessed or sold an illegal substance, 319 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: faced with foreclosure on her family home, Alice made a 320 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 1: mistake and was charged in a drug conspiracy. She was 321 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: sent to life without parole plus twenty five years for 322 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: a first time non violent offense. However, her face sustained 323 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: her through her daunting and draconian life sentence, during which 324 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: she helped other women and became a certified hospice worker, 325 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: ordained minister, and playwright. After serving twenty one years, an 326 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: advocacy campaign led to Alice's sentence commutation in twenty eighteen 327 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: and an official pardon in twenty twenty. Today, Alice works 328 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 1: tirelessly in the fight to reform the criminal justice system, 329 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,959 Speaker 1: helps others earn and receive a second chance, and she 330 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: serves as the CEO of Taking Action for Good. To 331 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: learn more about stand Together their Partners or how you 332 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: can partner will stand Together, go to Stand Together dot org. 333 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about your journey year 334 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: experience and you know what worked for you and what 335 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: do you think is the most critical aspect that I 336 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 1: think they'll be helpful for people to really realize like 337 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: what works and what doesn't. A very short version would 338 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: be that I was a really geeky, kind of aspy 339 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,159 Speaker 1: sort of kid, and I felt really disconnected from people 340 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: and Drugs were the first interest that I had. Like 341 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: previous ones involved things like opera and science fiction, drugs 342 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 1: were a thing that other people actually did want to 343 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: hear me talk about. In fact, they still do, you know. 344 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: So that led to some issues, eventually led to me 345 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: getting arrested, getting expelled from Colombia, and all kinds of 346 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 1: things like Columbia, the college, not the country. I was 347 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: about to say, if you got expelled from Colombia for cocaine, 348 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 1: you had quite a done. Yeah, maya were you? Were 349 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: you in the Cinelo cartel? No, I'm just kidding. I'm 350 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: just kidding. No, No, I mean I was definitely selling 351 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 1: coke in the eighties at Columbia, but not in Colombia. 352 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: So anyway, when I got to college, I would is 353 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: just like, what do I do with all these prep 354 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: school people that I just feel I can't connect to. 355 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: I feel like completely less than and unable to figure out, 356 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: you know, a way to get together. But if I 357 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: had cocaine, I got invited to the parties and all 358 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: of the things. You know. Then I got suspended from school, 359 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: and then I decided I'd already ruined my life, so 360 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: I may as well do heroin, and that did not help, 361 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: although at first it seemed like it helped. Because part 362 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 1: of the reason that we have our own brain opioids, 363 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: indogenous opioids in our heads, is to make social connections soothing, right, 364 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 1: And so when you feel like the warmth of a hug, 365 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 1: or you look at a cute baby, or you see 366 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: your beloved person, that's opioids. That's our natural opioids doing 367 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: their natural job and making you feel warm, safe, loved, 368 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: and comfortable. And so somebody who doesn't have that social 369 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: connection and feels really isolated suddenly experiences that at not surprisingly, 370 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: they're going to love it, and not surprisingly, it can 371 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: cause a problem. And so I basically declined from there. 372 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: I got arrested. I continue to use for another two years. Yeah, 373 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: I was like shooting up forty times a day. At 374 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: the end, I weighed eighty pounds. I looked terrible, I 375 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: felt terrible, and I eventually just realized that I am 376 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: addicted and I need help, and so I called my 377 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: parents and got into treatment. Basically, I had to stop 378 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: at court because I had a court date that day 379 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: and I knew my dad would be there, and I said, 380 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: I'm getting help. This is not working, and I then 381 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: chose to go to treatment, and they have been in 382 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 1: recovery since. The thing is that we can't base policy 383 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,360 Speaker 1: on anecdote. The treatment that I went through was your 384 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: traditional twenty eight day, twelve step based treatment, and I 385 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 1: was told this is the only way, and if you 386 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: don't do this, the only alternative is jails, institutions, and death. 387 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: So I did this and I managed to stay in recovery. 388 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 1: And one of the things that really does help people 389 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: get into recovery is social support. And I got a 390 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: lot of social support from those programs, which I attended 391 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: every day for at least five years. So am I 392 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: going to say, well that's what everybody should do, no, 393 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: because that really doesn't work for a lot of people, right. 394 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: And I mean, if you weren't at Columbia or other places, 395 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 1: if you were just a kid in Harlem or Queens 396 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: or something else and you get arrested, you know, you're 397 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: not getting the opportunities to even deal with any of 398 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: this stuff. And you know, I was extremely lucky. One 399 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: of the reasons that I do the things that I 400 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: do is because when I got arrested, I was facing 401 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: fifteen to life a felony under the Rockefeller Laws for cocaine. 402 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: And I'm a white woman, and I was also at 403 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: an Ivy League school, and I had family, and I 404 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: could show the judge after I came out of treatment, 405 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: I went from this sort of eighty pound, very scary 406 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: looking person covered with acts to somebody who had hope 407 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: in my eyes again. And she saw that, and she said, 408 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: I want to try to keep you out of prison, 409 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: and she went to bat for me, even though the 410 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: prosecutors were kind of like, well, we're not locking enough 411 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: white people. So oftentimes, because this thing dragged out out 412 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: of a four or five years, oftentimes I would be 413 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,959 Speaker 1: the only white defendant in the courtroom. And it's just 414 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 1: fucked up. I'm sorry. I hope I'm allowed to say that. 415 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: It's just like wrong, and I feel that like everybody 416 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: should have the opportunities that I had, and that taking 417 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: stuff away from people is the exact opposite of what 418 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: you need to do, when basically addiction is a cry 419 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: for help right here, already down like you're already trying 420 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: to scratching claws. I think, let's say it's a situation 421 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: where you're in poverty, that's one hole you're in. Now 422 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: you're addicted to drugs. That's another hole that you're in. 423 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: Now you get a resident, you get a felony on 424 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: top of that, and like, now, what jobs are you 425 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 1: gonna get? What chance do you have out of getting 426 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: out of any of these holes? When your three holes 427 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: deep and then you've got something stamped on you that 428 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: basically prevent you from ever being able to make anything 429 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: out of yourself. Well, I'm happy to speak to this. 430 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: So right now, Colorado decided to create a felony for 431 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: possession of fentanyl. And what that means is you have 432 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,400 Speaker 1: all kinds of disabilities in the future because it makes 433 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: it really hard to get a job, It makes it 434 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: really hard to get housing, It makes it really hard 435 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: to find a partner, It makes it hard to do 436 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: all of the things that we do that can actually 437 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: get us out of addiction. It makes it much harder 438 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: to recover. It increases self hatred, it stigmatizes you, and 439 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: it adds all of these things such as not being 440 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: allowed to get housing and not being allowed to get 441 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: food stamps. And it's infinite punishment. And we're in the 442 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: midst of the spentel crisis. We have felonized drug possession 443 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 1: in many states for many years. It did not work. 444 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: It does not work. This is not what works, and 445 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 1: yet we're still pushing back into this ancient, harmful stuff. Yeah, 446 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: I got a question. I'm sure you said a lot 447 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: of times you were the only white person in these courtrooms. 448 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: What was something white defendant? That's yeah, it was white. 449 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 1: But on the other side of now we hang out 450 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: of court, right, So, um, what was something that was it? 451 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: Anything that you noticed in the difference of how you 452 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: were handled in the courtroom as opposed to some of 453 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,360 Speaker 1: the other defendants that were there that might have been 454 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 1: black or brown. Well, that's I mean, that's the thing. 455 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: I just saw people hugging their families and going away 456 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: for like fifteen years. It was horrible. Most of the 457 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: court appearances that I had were what's known as calendar dates, 458 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: and you basically just have to sit there and wait 459 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 1: through other people's cases till they get to yours. And 460 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 1: so yeah, like I mean, I had a private lawyer. 461 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: I just had an enormous amount of privilege, and it 462 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: just like it just broke my heart to see this. 463 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: It just wasn't right. And the court that I was 464 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: in actually was a special narcotics court, so most of 465 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: the people there were just being sent for dealing. It 466 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 1: was just horrifying. The whole system needs to be started 467 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: in a better way from the ground up, because this 468 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 1: is not justice. It's just prejudice. Right. It wasn't some 469 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: kind of medical decision that went into, Okay, we'll make 470 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,719 Speaker 1: cigarettes legal and we'll make marijuana illegal, because you couldn't 471 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 1: make a science based decision on that. That had to 472 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: be racism, because it's just crazy, like one of those 473 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: drugs kills fifty percent of its long term users. The 474 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: other drug is not associated with reductions in lifespan at all, 475 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: and that's the one that's illegal. I guess the thing 476 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: I think about is the opioid epidemic. We touched on 477 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: it a little bit. I know people in the black 478 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,719 Speaker 1: community like, oh, it's an epidemic now because it's affecting 479 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 1: those people. But I think if it's getting people's eyes 480 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: and is making people that ordinarily weren't looking at drug 481 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: addicts or users as human beings, then in a strange 482 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: kind of messed up way, it's almost a good thing. 483 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 1: It's almost a good thing. If we could get these 484 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: conversations open. If we could get these these talks going 485 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: about you know, harm reduction and actually helping people, I 486 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: think that's one good thing that's coming out of the negativity. Yeah, 487 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: and I mean I'm glad you said that, because it's 488 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: if we get towards more compassionate and caring and respectful 489 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 1: treatment for people with addiction, not only will we have 490 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: a more humane society, we will also have more effective treatment. Well. Well, Maya, 491 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 1: this has been amazing. Again. I think we could have 492 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 1: talked to you for another three hours. This could have 493 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: been its own podcast series just on this. I want 494 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: to thank you again for your time and sharing your 495 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 1: story with us and your expertise on this issue. And 496 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: you just don't realize the consequences of some of these 497 00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: issues and how the people that really need help and 498 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,360 Speaker 1: assistance are just not getting it anymore. Again, thank you, Bye, 499 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: I really appreciate this. And yeah, hopefully well to sing 500 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: it against in. Thank you, Thank you so much. We 501 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: have a few bills to pay, so we're gonna go 502 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: to a couple of commercials right now. Wow, Right off 503 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: the bat, the thing that's stuck with me since that 504 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: interview was the story about the man and his wife 505 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: holding each other's hands as he put a gun to himself, 506 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 1: till himself because he was aggressively weaned off of opiates, 507 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: the only thing that was actually giving him a quality 508 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: of life for chronic back pain after a car accident. Yeah, 509 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: and he didn't go the illegal route, which was something 510 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: that she said, She said, most of them don't turn 511 00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: to the legal route. They turned to the gun, and 512 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: he turned to the gun. And this is prime example. 513 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: Like we say, this affects everybody, and it impacts everybody, 514 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: and so much of the stuff we've been talking about 515 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: has been addicts, and we look at these people as 516 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: drug users and criminals, and I think this one just 517 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: kind of hits home. You know, sometimes we don't really 518 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: have names or faces to go with these people, and 519 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: we were able to, you know, find obituary for j. O. Lawrence, 520 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: age fifty eight, of Hendersonville, Tennessee, passed away suddenly on 521 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: March second, twenty seventeen. And you know, I think it's 522 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: important just to say who he was to the people 523 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: that cared about the most. I mean, he was a 524 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: proud father, devoted husband, He has daughters, he has brothers, 525 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: he has This is a person that was important to 526 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: the people in his life and is survived by his wife, 527 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: Meredith Lawrence, who was arrested for assisting in his suicide 528 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: on probation. That's the craziest thing. Yeah, she literally has 529 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: just lost the love of her life, the person that was, 530 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: you know, trying to support their family this and she 531 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: got caught up in the crone because of that. I mean, 532 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: if you don't think that's just screwed up, that's a 533 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: double blow to that family. And both blows came from 534 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: the war on drone. Yeah, instead of being like what 535 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: is happening where we allowed for that to be the 536 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: most logical decision for this man in his head and 537 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: his family. Right, So we said, oh, okay, the problem's 538 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: not the laws. The problem is this woman who held 539 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: her husband's hand while I shot himself because he was 540 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: in too much pain. Yeah, it's insane, definitely backwards man. 541 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: It's it just gets frustrating and like it's like this 542 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 1: one any of us could be in this situation easily, 543 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: car accident, bad injury, sports, bicycling, whatever, picking up a 544 00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: frigging box like woral world is shipping now claying Like 545 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: I wake up with stuff and I'm like, why is 546 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: why is that sort like what's going on here? And 547 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: I'm not doing anything like yeah my joints. Craig very loud, Yeah, 548 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: I thought I got shot this morning. It was my shoulder. Yeah, 549 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: I'd lay down. Yeah. I mean I read this quote 550 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: from the doctor to that guy and the last thing 551 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: he said was my patient's quality of life is not 552 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: worth risking my practice or my license. Over we're forcing 553 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: doctors to essentially remove a quality of life because they 554 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: feel that they're going to be heliable and they will. 555 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: I mean doctors have been criminally charged, not ones that 556 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: are trying to run pill mills or anything, just trying 557 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 1: to prescribe care. And we have these guidelines, and you know, 558 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: the guidelines we're supposed to be just kind of like 559 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: advisory for doctors to kind of show, and though obviously 560 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: became law and a lot of states, and we're allowed 561 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: to essentially target doctors who were prescribing above those guidelines, 562 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: around those guidelines, but cops can get at those lists 563 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: of people that have PC. That's a crazy thing too, 564 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: Like you think you're you're here medical informations like protected. No, 565 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: it ain't. The FEDS think that they can get it regardless, 566 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: and then a couple states require a warrant, but the 567 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: other ones it's just we know what you're being prescribed, 568 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: who's prescribing it, and the last thing you want to 569 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: be is on the top of that list as a doctor. 570 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: It's crazy. And so luckily they're trying to change some 571 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: of the laws around that, and also the CDC stopped 572 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: labeling guidelines for like amounts and they just said doctors 573 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: use your caution and discretion to go about this. And 574 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: then that allows for prosecutors if someone's running a pill 575 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: mill and has intent is acting like a drug dealers 576 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: selling is off, then they're still able to prosecuting. They 577 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: don't need this at all. It just makes it easier. 578 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: We just have to figure out this line at some point. 579 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: And I want to thank Maya for coming out and 580 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: talking to us and taking the time to hopefully educate 581 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: a lot of you all on this, because I think 582 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: there's misconceptions about opiates and how they need to be utilized, 583 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: and I think, you know, people went crazy when they 584 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: first came out and they were pumped down the system, 585 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: and then we try to go complete the other way, 586 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: and we're seeing the effects of that, and the CDC 587 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: can change their guidelines, but states still have the laws 588 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: in there. Prosecutors are still going to use these to 589 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: prosecute doctors. It's going to have a chilling effect on prescriptions. 590 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: I mean, terminally ill cancer patients can't get opiates last 591 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: thirty days of the life. They're just in immense pain, right, 592 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: you know, coming to terms with the final days and 593 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: reconciling with their family, are saying goodbye and everything. If 594 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: if you could make it to where I could talk 595 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: to my family in these last few days without being 596 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: in excruciating pain, are being extremely exhausted, that's the least 597 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: you can give those people, all right, Well, on that 598 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: real happy note, like all our episodes and not all 599 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: our episodes in like the beginning of up. But it's okay, 600 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: we'll try, we'll try together, we'll try to throw something 601 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: in there a little bit more. But with that, you know, 602 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: I'm I'm Greg Glad, I'm Clayton English and thanks for listening. 603 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: Make sure you follow the War on Drugs podcast so 604 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,719 Speaker 1: you don't miss any new episodes or any of our 605 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: quick fixed bonus content. I don't know if it actually 606 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 1: helps the Maybe if you follow it and unfollow it 607 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: and then follow it again. If we get two that 608 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: don't count, I don't know. Maybe you never know. Michael's 609 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: mess with the algorithm a bit. We'll see. Just give 610 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: it a shot. What's what's the harm? But we'll be 611 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: back next week with another episode of War on Drugs. 612 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: Until then, thanks for listening. Executive producers for War on 613 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 1: Drugs are Jason Flam and Kevin Wards. Senior producer is 614 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 1: Michael Epstein. Editing by Nick Massetti and Michael Epstein, Associate 615 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: producer and mix and mastering by Nick Massetti. Additional production 616 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: by Jeff Clapburn and Anna mcintee. Be sure to follow 617 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: the show on all social media accounts you know what 618 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: they are, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook at lava like molten Lava 619 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: for good. You can follow me on Twitter at Greg Gloud. 620 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: That's it great, that's it. There's nothing, there's nothing fancy 621 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 1: about me. It was available, it always will be. No 622 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: one wants to go out in there. Yeah, so you 623 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: never have to go one. Two, You never have to 624 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: go to Greg Glove, never having in my life. Yeah yeah, 625 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: it's me and my dad are the only two Greg 626 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,480 Speaker 1: lads in an entire world. Is your dad's Gregory Glood 627 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: doesn't have a Twitter. Oh he even gets crazier than that. 628 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: So oh yeah, he doesn't have Twitter. Yeah, he couldn't 629 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: get on Twitter. He tried. But the nice thing was 630 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: I never had to buy a triple A membership when 631 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: I was growing, right because I just used my dad's 632 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: name for everything, any membership or anything that he had 633 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 1: if I got in trouble, Hey, greg Old right here. Yeah, 634 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: it's been perfect right, you be grown not since you 635 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 1: were six? Yeah, exactly. Why does this kid have his 636 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: own Costco card? You have Twitter, Instagram where he didn't 637 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 1: work with, you know, just just Instagram over here. Man. 638 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 1: You know I don't have a Twitter. Okay, you know 639 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: how I feel about that. I know how you feel. Yeah, 640 00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,480 Speaker 1: but you can definitely follow me at Clayton English on Instagram. 641 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 1: Warren Drugs is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts 642 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 1: in association with Signal Company Number one. I'm Greg Glaude 643 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: and I'm Clayton English. Thanks for listening. M