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Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of people incarcerated in the US have

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Speaker 1: been wrongfully convicted and are being held in captivity for crimes,

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Speaker 1: even as they adamantly maintain their innocence. What's it like

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Speaker 1: to be one of those imprisoned people, and what's it

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Speaker 1: like to be their ally, the one outside committed to

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Speaker 1: fighting for their freedom. I'm Lauren Bride Pacheco, and this

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Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction. On February fourth, nineteen seventy nine, the

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Speaker 1: bodies of a mother and her teenage daughter were found

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Speaker 1: in an apartment in Norfolk, Virginia, known as a party

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Speaker 1: house due to a steady flow of visitors. Twenty one

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Speaker 1: year old Joe Giarretano lived there in the month before

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Speaker 1: and the night of the murders. Waking up upon the

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Speaker 1: scene with no recollection of the events due to excessive

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Speaker 1: drug and alcohol use, Jerretano assumed that he was the

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Speaker 1: one who'd committed the murders. Over time, he provided five

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Speaker 1: different confessions to the police, each of which were inconsistent

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Speaker 1: with the facts of the crime. Although no physical evidence

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Speaker 1: indicated he'd committed the crimes, He was ultimately convicted and

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Speaker 1: sentenced to death for the murders. Which placed him in

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Speaker 1: the path of our second guest. Joe Ingle, is a

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Speaker 1: former death row minister, which is where he devoted his

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Speaker 1: adult life. While the death penalty is an issue for many,

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Speaker 1: for Joe Ingele, it is primarily about the people caught

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Speaker 1: in the killing machinery. His work against mass incarceration and

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Speaker 1: the death penalty, while with the Southern Coalition on Jails

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Speaker 1: and Prisons, which he helped create, led him to visit

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Speaker 1: every Southern death row. That experience created deep bonds with

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Speaker 1: the men and women imprisoned there, and Ingle's effort to

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Speaker 1: save their lives led him to meetings and churches, synagogues,

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Speaker 1: bishop on archbishop offices, as well as governor's offices, legislators

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Speaker 1: and courtrooms. It also led him into the homes of

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Speaker 1: the families of the condemned and victims. Realizing many of

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Speaker 1: the condemned lacked legal representation, he joined in the efforts

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Speaker 1: to create the Southern Center for Human Rights to represent them.

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Speaker 1: Joe Garretano and Joe Ingele, Welcome to wrongful connect you

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Speaker 1: nice you have. Now in terms of simplicity, how shall

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Speaker 1: we deal with the fact that you're both named Joe?

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Speaker 1: May we do Reverend Joe and Joe.

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Speaker 2: Well, I will never use the Reverend except when it's handy,

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Speaker 2: so it seems to be handy for you, so we'll

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Speaker 2: use it.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate it, sir. All right, Joe, I would love

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Speaker 1: to start with you. You know, I usually begin these

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Speaker 1: episodes asking people to tell me a little bit about

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Speaker 1: their childhoods, but having researched yours, I feel compelled to

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Speaker 1: start with an article pull just for context. Born to

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Speaker 1: a Bronx family involved with drug rings and organized crime,

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Speaker 1: Gerretano started shooting demrol when he was eleven, under the

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Speaker 1: watchful eye of his junkie mother.

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Speaker 3: That's a lot, it is. I mean at the time,

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Speaker 3: you know, I was a kid and just following my

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Speaker 3: mother's leave. But she was a junkie herself. My mother

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Speaker 3: was a paranoid, schizophrenic and a criminal genius.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 1: And I've read that she actually ran one of the

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Speaker 1: largest drug smuggling operations on the East Coast.

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Speaker 3: She did. She worked with Carlos later Revus out of

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Speaker 3: Columbia with the Medaine drug cartel.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Was your father involved in your upbringing? Was he

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Speaker 1: part of your household?

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Speaker 3: No, my father left when I was a child. I

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Speaker 3: don't really have any memories of him. And then sometime

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Speaker 3: in the nineties, People magazine did an article about me.

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Speaker 3: I was supposed to get cover the Sammy Davis Junior

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Speaker 3: died that week, so they gave him the cover and

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Speaker 3: gave me the centerfold. So I've been at the centerfold.

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Speaker 3: No dat. My father apparently saw he was imprisoned in

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Speaker 3: Florida and reached out to me and contacted me.

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Speaker 1: How old were you then when you reconnected with him.

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Speaker 3: After the murders, so probably sometime the early nineties.

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Speaker 1: We mentioned that you were exposed to drug use at

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Speaker 1: a very very young age. How did that change the

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Speaker 1: way you saw yourself and the world in general?

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Speaker 3: Back then? The only thing I knew to do from

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Speaker 3: the way I was brought up with the followers. Whatever

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Speaker 3: my mother told me to do, that's what I did.

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Speaker 3: And everybody that I knew was a criminal. They were

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Speaker 3: either made ment for the mafia or street hoods, and

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Speaker 3: then the Columbians got involved. Thing I knew was criminal activity.

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Speaker 3: That's how we survived.

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Speaker 1: I've also read that you were sent to a reform

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Speaker 1: school in Florida as a child, which later was known

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Speaker 1: for its ridiculously troubling abuse of the children in its care.

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Speaker 1: Is that description in keeping with what you experienced there?

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Speaker 3: Yes, And in fact that's very relevant now because Governor

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Speaker 3: DeSantis down in Florida should be signing an authorizing compensation

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Speaker 3: for the survivors from nineteen forty to nineteen seventy five

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Speaker 3: who were at the Dosia School for Boys, and I

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Speaker 3: have been working all by affidavit for that. Wow.

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Speaker 1: How long were you there? What age?

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Speaker 3: Oh? I was young. I was there twice. The last

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Speaker 3: time was probably seventy five. I was raped there under

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Speaker 3: the watchful eyes of a cottage parent who stood there,

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Speaker 3: laughed and did nothing, and then told me to clean

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Speaker 3: myself up and forget about it. If I knew what

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Speaker 3: was good for me.

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Speaker 1: Wow, Joe, I'm so sorry that you experienced what you experienced.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it was tough. I've been working on the Affidavid

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Speaker 3: now for almost two months. It's going back revisiting. That's hard.

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Speaker 1: So, given everything that you had on your plate, being

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Speaker 1: raised by somebody with mental illness and addiction illness on

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Speaker 1: top of surrounded by criminal activity, and then sexually and

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Speaker 1: physically abused at a school where you were supposed to

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Speaker 1: go to become a better person.

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Speaker 3: They're still finding bodies at that school. They're still digging

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Speaker 3: up bodies of people that were killed.

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Speaker 1: It's not surprising that you ended up dropping out of

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Speaker 1: school altogether.

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Speaker 3: No, I dropped out of school, and does you're really

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Speaker 3: set the course After that was released from Doser, the

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Speaker 3: only place they would allow me to go was back

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Speaker 3: to my mother, back into criminal activity. And then in

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Speaker 3: nineteen seventy eight, seventy late seventy eight, early seventy nine,

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Speaker 3: my mother wanted to expand her criminal activity into virgin

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Speaker 3: She had two friends. She said, you're going with them

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Speaker 3: to Virginia. You're going to work on the fishing boats

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Speaker 3: up there, and we're going to use the boats to

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Speaker 3: smuggle cocaine into virgin.

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Speaker 1: So I was going to ask you how you ended

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Speaker 1: up being a scallop fisherman in Norfolk, Virginia. But it

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Speaker 1: was just a front for your mother's drug smuggling operations exactly.

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Speaker 3: So actually enjoyed being on the boats. I loved the work,

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Speaker 3: but the main focus was smuggling cocaine into this state.

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Speaker 1: Wow, And that takes us pretty much up to the

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Speaker 1: time when this tragedy unfolded. You're twenty one years old. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: all of this makes much more sense to me now

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Speaker 1: that I know that cartels were in the landscape of

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Speaker 1: how this unfolded too. But just the facts of the

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Speaker 1: case were that on February fourth of nineteen seventy nine

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Speaker 1: in Norfolk, Virginia, a forty four year old named Barbara Ann,

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Speaker 1: also known as Tony Klein, and her fifteen year old

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Speaker 1: daughter Michelle were murdered, and that you had arrived at

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Speaker 1: the apartment at six o'clock, nobody was there. You come

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Speaker 1: back at eight. You're under the influence of drugs and alcohol.

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Speaker 3: I was wasted. I was injecting de lawds, which is

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Speaker 3: a major painkiller for cancer patients. I was probably using

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Speaker 3: five to six lawns a day as well as drinking.

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Speaker 1: So you wake up on the couch, wake up.

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Speaker 3: On the couch and didn't see anybody. Initially went to

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Speaker 3: the bathroom and that's when I saw Barbara before and

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Speaker 3: the bathroom face one of the bedrooms, and when I

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Speaker 3: turned I saw Michelle lane on. I panicked. My criminal

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Speaker 3: instincts kicked in and I said I need to get

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Speaker 3: back to my mother.

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Speaker 1: But it must have been like waking up into a

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Speaker 1: scene from a horror movie.

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Speaker 3: It was a nightmare. It was a nightmare. I still

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Speaker 3: see it through this day sometimes in my head.

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Speaker 1: In that moment of complete blackout, brain fog. You just

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Speaker 1: assumed you had something to do.

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Speaker 3: With it exactly. I was there. I don't remember anybody

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Speaker 3: else being there. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And I mean not to get into too much detail

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Speaker 1: or gore, but was there any physical sign that you

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Speaker 1: had been involved in two bloody murders?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: On you?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 3: There was one little speck of blood on my boot,

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Speaker 3: a little tiny speck of blood, and they sent it

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Speaker 3: off to lab to be analyzed. But at blood's convinced me.

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Speaker 3: At that point, I didn't know where the blood came from.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't remember. I must have done it. We found

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Speaker 3: out years later that the blood on shoe didn't company

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Speaker 3: the one of the victims, and I had been in

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Speaker 3: a fight at some point at one of the bars.

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Speaker 3: That's how the blood got off the sheet.

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Speaker 1: You panicked initially and fled to Florida, Yes, only to

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Speaker 1: then turn yourself in at a greyhound bus station at

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Speaker 1: three am to a uniformed police officer who was just

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Speaker 1: sitting minding his own business and we were sitting.

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Speaker 3: There eating breakfast. All I could see was dead body.

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Speaker 3: All I could see was Barbara and Michelle laying here.

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Speaker 3: And I just walked up to the cop and sat

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Speaker 3: down and said, hey, I think I killed two people

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Speaker 3: in Aufolk.

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Speaker 1: And you thought you did, but had no idea of

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Speaker 1: how it was done. So you end up waving your

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Speaker 1: miranda right.

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Speaker 3: Well, I waved my Miranda rights. I gave the Jacksonville

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Speaker 3: police officers what amounted to a full confession. They said, well,

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Speaker 3: how'd you do it? I said, I don't know, and

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Speaker 3: they started suggesting to me, did you do it like this?

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Speaker 3: Did you do it like that? And I just said yes.

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Speaker 3: Then the contacted the No off Of Police Department, and

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Speaker 3: two detectives from an off came to Florida, brought me

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Speaker 3: back to Virginia, and that's where the series of other

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Speaker 3: five confessions came in. They said, no, it couldn't have

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Speaker 3: happened like this. It had to have happened like this,

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Speaker 3: and I just followed their lead. And these were police

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Speaker 3: certain confessions. I didn't write these confessions they wrote, but

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Speaker 3: they started doing it before they had actually investigated the

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Speaker 3: crime scene. They hadn't been to the crime scene.

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Speaker 1: Yet I know that this was ten years before DNA

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Speaker 1: evidence was of value, truly, but a proper investigation at

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Speaker 1: the time would have uncovered all of the things you

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Speaker 1: ended up uncovering a decade later exactly.

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Speaker 3: And what they did because they hadn't seen the crime scene,

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Speaker 3: they had to keep coming back and revising the confessions and.

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Speaker 1: The autopsy afterwards just to keep this clear. So you

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Speaker 1: end up giving five different versions of the confession, and

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Speaker 1: basically you're playing charades and they're feeding you what to say,

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Speaker 1: so by the time you come up with your fifth confession,

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Speaker 1: you're just parroting back what they have told you are

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Speaker 1: the crime scene exactly.

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Speaker 3: Then I get a quarter pointer to Turney had just

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Speaker 3: gone to trial, had a head a decent atturning because

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Speaker 3: it was physical evidence which we didn't find till later.

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Speaker 3: And none of that physical evidence bloody footprints, headhairs, pupa hairs,

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Speaker 3: and sperm, none of it matched me. And they hid

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Speaker 3: that promise.

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Speaker 1: So before we even get to that shamble of a

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Speaker 1: half day trial, on February sixth of nineteen seventy nine,

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Speaker 1: at the age of twenty one, you're indicted for rape

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Speaker 1: of the daughter statutory burglary, capital, murder of the daughter

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Speaker 1: and murder of the mother. You're twenty one. Who was

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Speaker 1: your support person at that time? Who did you reach

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Speaker 1: out to?

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Speaker 3: Didn't have any except my mother. I reached out to

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Speaker 3: my mother, and my mother's response was let him kill you.

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Speaker 3: She was worried that I would run my mouth about

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Speaker 3: her business. She hadn't been under the radar at that time.

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Speaker 1: Your mother's first response is your dispensable. She wants to

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Speaker 1: protect herself and her business structure. So exactly your life

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Speaker 1: is insignificant as far as she's concerned. Exactly that is

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Speaker 1: a lot. Okay, So now we get to that shamble

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Speaker 1: of a trial. How long did that trial last and

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Speaker 1: was there a jury involved?

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Speaker 3: There was no jury. It was a half day trial,

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Speaker 3: including the launch break. They appointed an attorney who decided

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Speaker 3: to plead me not guilty by reason of insanity, even

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Speaker 3: though all the experts said he's not insane. So a

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Speaker 3: trial the facts never occurred. There was no discovery when

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Speaker 3: you plead not guilty, there were reasons insanity. The only

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Speaker 3: thing that gets tried is whether or not you're insane.

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Speaker 3: And the psychiatrist come in and said, this man has

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Speaker 3: no memory of the crime. His memory shot. He actually

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Speaker 3: said that when they did the blood work at twenty

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Speaker 3: one years old, I had the liver of a seventy

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Speaker 3: eight year old man. I shouldn't have been alive.

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Speaker 1: Wow, I just so there's no one in that courtroom

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Speaker 1: supporting you. No, you must have felt so alone.

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Speaker 3: No, they had me drugged and fact to judge stopped

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Speaker 3: the trial at one point and instructed to sharef to

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Speaker 3: find out where I was getting the illegal drugs from.

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Speaker 3: I was literally drooling out the side of my mouth

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Speaker 3: and falling to sleep, and my attorney stood up and said, no,

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Speaker 3: he's under psychiatric care. They had him on high doses

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Speaker 3: of thors.

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, which is just basically your body, mind, everything

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Speaker 1: is just frozen.

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Speaker 3: It's a horse tranquilizer, it's an animalizer. So I was

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Speaker 3: just sitting there and a drug and do stupor.

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Speaker 1: We're going to get into this, but very much, Reverend Joe,

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Speaker 1: after reading your book Too Close to the Flame, it's

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Speaker 1: very obvious that at that point Joe was already caught

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Speaker 1: up in the machinery of the legal system and on

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Speaker 1: his way to the belly of the killing machine beast

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Speaker 1: because you were in no shape really to probably even

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Speaker 1: absorb what had happened during the trial or your sentence.

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Speaker 1: But you're convicted and in nineteen seventy nine for thirty

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Speaker 1: years confinement for the rape of the daughter, life imprisonment

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Speaker 1: for the murder of the mother, and death for the

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Speaker 1: capital murder of the exactly, so you're sentenced to death.

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Speaker 3: I went straight from the core group now of you're

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Speaker 3: back to the jail. They took me straight the death house.

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Speaker 1: You had a date with execution five times over the years.

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Speaker 1: I mean, how do you what is that like psychologically

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Speaker 1: to feel like it's just there, could happen at any time.

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Speaker 3: Well, for several years, nothing registered in my head because

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Speaker 3: they kept me on thwarsen for most of the years

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Speaker 3: I was in prison, I was walking around like a sam.

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Speaker 1: While you were incarcerated, Joe, you at some point woke

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Speaker 1: up from your drug stupor.

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Speaker 3: It took a court order to get me off the drugs.

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Speaker 3: The prison was injecting me with the drugs whether I

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Speaker 3: wanted them or not. If I refused, and I often

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Speaker 3: did refuse, they would dress up and riote here, open

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Speaker 3: my cell door, come in, beat me down, chain to

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Speaker 3: the bed and hit me in the hill.

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Speaker 1: It's just the cruelty of it seems to be the point.

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Speaker 3: At one point I just said enough kill, I'm ready

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Speaker 3: to go. And that's when Joe Angle and Redanes got involved.

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Speaker 1: Enter Reverend Joe. Reverend Joe, can you just tell me

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Speaker 1: a little bit about the path that took you to

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Speaker 1: where your path ended up crossing with Joe? In other words,

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Speaker 1: how did you choose to make Death Row your congregation.

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Speaker 4: I sort of backed into it.

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Speaker 2: Native of North Carolina and went to Sanders Presbyterian College

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Speaker 2: and then said I want to do more studying. So

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Speaker 2: I went to Union Theological Seminary in New York and

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Speaker 2: there was a program there where you could live and

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Speaker 2: work in East Harlem, which really attracted me. So here

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Speaker 2: I am a white boy moving up from North Carolina

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Speaker 2: to East Harlem, which was a class ghetto when I

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Speaker 2: arrived in nineteen seventy. So you had forty five five

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Speaker 2: percent African American, forty five percent Puerto Rican, ten percent

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Speaker 2: everything else. And as part of that, you worked in

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Speaker 2: the community, You took your classes at Union Seminary, and

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Speaker 2: the idea was your theology would emerge from your interaction

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Speaker 2: with people in the community and also your theological studies,

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Speaker 2: and it certainly.

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Speaker 4: Did for me.

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Speaker 2: My senior year of seminary, I visited men at the

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Speaker 2: Bronx House of Detention because my neighbors were dealing with

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Speaker 2: cops and das all the time, and I'd never even

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Speaker 2: been in a jail or a prison, and Attica happened

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Speaker 2: that fall in seventy one, and watching that all my

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Speaker 2: fuzzy black and white TV. Because the prisoners gave press

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Speaker 2: conferences every day they were in control of the prison,

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Speaker 2: I thought, if ten percent of what these guys are

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Speaker 2: saying is true, I would be upset too. So all

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Speaker 2: that motivated me to go visit prisoners at the Bronx

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Speaker 2: House of Detention, and that's where I had my revelation

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Speaker 2: about what the machinery we have created in this country

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Speaker 2: we call criminal justice system, which it is not. It's

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Speaker 2: a criminal legal system. There's no justice in it. Justice

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Speaker 2: is almost totally absent. It's criminal, it's legal, and it's

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Speaker 2: a system. And these guys were all, as I learned,

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Speaker 2: awaiting trial, average length of time eighteen months.

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Speaker 4: No one's convicted.

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Speaker 2: They're just there because they're poor and they're charged with

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Speaker 2: the crime, and when I walked in there for the

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Speaker 2: first time, I was a nause seminary student. I got

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Speaker 2: up to the sixth floor and guard saw my little

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Speaker 2: badge that the chaplain had given me, and he opened

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Speaker 2: the door to this enormous cage there with human beings

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Speaker 2: in it. And he walks along and I follow him.

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Speaker 2: He says, lawyers and clergy visiting this room, and he

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Speaker 2: gestured to the left.

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Speaker 4: There.

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Speaker 2: I'm a naive seminary student, so I said, why don't

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Speaker 2: you let me in.

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Speaker 4: Here with these guys.

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Speaker 2: That guard looked at me and shrugged, opened the door,

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Speaker 2: asked up to cross a threshold. Now, as i'd casually

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Speaker 2: glanced into the cell block, I'd assumed everybody's in a cell,

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Speaker 2: they're locked, and I'll just visit through the cell doors

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Speaker 2: of each cell. But when I walked across the threshold,

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Speaker 2: I realized all these cell doors are open, and he

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Speaker 2: slams that door behind me. I'll never forget this. My

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Speaker 2: first thought was, oh my god, he's locked me in

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Speaker 2: here with these animals, because that's what we're taught to

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Speaker 2: think by virtue of someone being in a prison or

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Speaker 2: a jail, they're less than us. So Once you reach

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Speaker 2: that point in your understanding of who you are versus

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Speaker 2: everybody else, you realized how lost you are. Because those

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Speaker 2: guys taught me a lot that year. I didn't do

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Speaker 2: much for them. I showed up. I gave him my

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Speaker 2: twenty hours a week.

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Speaker 4: We talked.

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Speaker 2: If I could afford it, I'd buy stamps for him.

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Speaker 2: I had no contacts to lawyers, but boy did they

355
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Speaker 2: ever educate me. So when I came back south and

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Speaker 2: to Nashville, Tennessee, I was involved the fellow named Will

357
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Speaker 2: Campbell and Tony Dunbar, and we started something called Southern

358
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Speaker 2: Prison Ministry, then the Southern Coalitional Jails and Prisons in

359
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Speaker 2: the spring of six, nineteen seventy four.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about that moment of walking through

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Speaker 1: that threshold figuratively as well, because reading your book, I

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Speaker 1: so clearly understand the power of compassion and empathy to

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Speaker 1: alter one's mindset. Because you stopped seeing the individuals behind

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Speaker 1: those bars as less than you saw them actually as human.

365
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Speaker 1: And that is a mind shift that negates the US

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Speaker 1: versus them mentality.

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Speaker 2: Well, it does completely. And what it's all about is

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Speaker 2: judgment and Jesus. In the Gospel of John the eighth chapter,

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Speaker 2: there is this great little story of this woman who's

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Speaker 2: guilty of adult at the time, which means she gets stoned.

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Speaker 2: Of course, a man would not get the death penalty

372
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Speaker 2: at that time, but she's guilty, she's going to get stoned.

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Speaker 2: These people brought her to Jesus and they basically want

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Speaker 2: her to say, oh yeah, do away with her. And

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Speaker 2: he looks at him and looks at her and says,

376
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Speaker 2: let he is without sin, throw the first stone. Well,

377
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Speaker 2: they realize they're not without sin, so they walked away,

378
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Speaker 2: and Jesus looks at her and says, woman, has no

379
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Speaker 2: one condemned you? And she says no, Rabbi, no one.

380
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Speaker 2: He says, neither do I condemn you? Go and sin

381
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Speaker 2: no more. Now a lot of folks think that is

382
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Speaker 2: against the death penalty, it is against the deathenally, but

383
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Speaker 2: it's a greater statement than that. It's a whole judgment issue.

384
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Speaker 2: Who are we to judge, like for Joe Garontano and

385
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Speaker 2: say this guy, well, he's not fit to live, We're

386
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Speaker 2: going to kill him.

387
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Speaker 4: Who are we to do that?

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Speaker 2: And once you realize that this whole system we have built,

389
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Speaker 2: this adversary system, the so called retributive justice model, where

390
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 2: you have a defense lawyer and a prosecutor and the

391
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 2: truth comes out of this. The truth hardly ever comes

392
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 2: out of this because it's a stag.

393
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Speaker 1: Deck and a lucrative one for the ones who have

394
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Speaker 1: the game.

395
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Speaker 2: Exactly, And Steve Bright says, who's a great anti death

396
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 2: only lawyer? It's not the people who commit. The worst

397
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 2: murderer go to death row, So people have the worst lawyers.

398
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 2: He's exactly right. And that's all based on poverty and race.

399
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 1: Now back to when your pads first cross. Tell me

400
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: how you two met and what your initial thoughts were

401
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,199
Speaker 1: of one another. Joe, why don't you go first?

402
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 3: Well, initially, Joe got involved in Virginia because of another gentleman,

403
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 3: a volunteer to be executed named Frank, a former Newport

404
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 3: News police officer who volunteered to be executed. Frank and

405
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 3: I were very good friends, and after he was executed,

406
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 3: I was the next volunteer. And that's when Joe came

407
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 3: into the picture and sent redeems to.

408
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: Me, explain what you mean by volunteer, volunteer.

409
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 3: To be executed? Wave all appeals, set a date, let's

410
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 3: do this.

411
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 1: What led you were. You just so exhausted at that point.

412
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 3: Exhausted and they had just executed by best friend. Right,

413
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 3: just lack of bother you to me.

414
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: And that was something that was sorely lacking in your life.

415
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was hard hitting guards keeping hear me. I

416
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 3: would attack him every day, getting beat down, getting shot

417
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 3: up with Thorsen, and Frank pulled me to decide, said

418
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 3: you can't win that way. He said you have to fight,

419
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 3: and then he gave up.

420
00:25:59,440 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 4: Well.

421
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 2: I spent that weekend with Frank prior to his execution,

422
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 2: and Joe at that point was in Mecklenburg, where death

423
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 2: row was. Frank had been moved up to the Virginia

424
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 2: State Penitentiary in Richmond, and so I'm visiting with him,

425
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 2: trying to hopefully get him to persuade him to change

426
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 2: his mind. If you can image a very intense situation.

427
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 2: His ex wife is there, o lovely woman, and she's

428
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 2: just torn up by this whole thing.

429
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 4: He has two children.

430
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: Of course, when you're on death row, you get a notoriety.

431
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 2: It's in the newspapers. People read about it and talk

432
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 2: about it. And part of the thing that had driven

433
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 2: Frank to this extreme was in one of the kids' classes.

434
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 2: One of the classmates had made a little paper electric

435
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 2: chair and put it on his son's chair, and when

436
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 2: Frank found out about that, he realized the cruelty his

437
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 2: family was being submitted to. I think that was one

438
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,959
Speaker 2: of the key reasons. I just can't keep going like this.

439
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: I can't keep having my family having to deal with

440
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 2: what I'm facing. So ultimately I was not able to

441
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 2: persuade him. It was a horrifically painful time, and he

442
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 2: was executed.

443
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 4: And then there was Joe.

444
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,239
Speaker 1: Do you remember the first time you met Joe and

445
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 1: what your thoughts were.

446
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 2: So I went to Mecklenburg, which was a hell hole, violent,

447
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 2: all sorts of stuff going on there. Look fine on

448
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 2: the outside, you know, it's pretty, got flowers and everything,

449
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 2: but inside it's the abyss.

450
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 4: So that's where death Row is.

451
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 2: When I meet people in prison for the first time,

452
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 2: I try to be just totally open. So that was

453
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: my approach with Joe. And although clearly he had some issues,

454
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,679
Speaker 2: he was also a very bright guy. I really felt like,

455
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: here's a guy who could help us. We got a

456
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: ways to go before we get there, that this guy

457
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 2: can actually really help us, and after Frank's execution, I

458
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 2: looked around the state of Virginia. Then you've got virtually

459
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: no organized opposition in the entire state of the death penalty.

460
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 2: There are no lawyers involved, and I'm just shaking my head.

461
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 2: So I directed the Southern Coalitional Jails and Prisons. We're

462
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 2: fighting mass incarceration in the death penalty, so I said,

463
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 2: I think we need to expand in Virginia. It's a

464
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 2: woman named Marie Deans who wants to do this. Let's

465
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 2: hire and set up the Virginia Coalitional Jails and Prisons

466
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: and hire Marie Deans to do that work. The decider

467
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 2: was the total absence of help for guys like Joe Jarontana,

468
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 2: I mean, zero help. So that's what Marie walked into

469
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 2: and began her amazing work to help all these guys

470
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: for you.

471
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: At this point, Joe, at the point that your pads crossed,

472
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:58,520
Speaker 1: you had already given up.

473
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 3: Well, Joe was a nice guy, but he couldn't convince

474
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 3: me to pick up my peels. I was determined, but

475
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 3: he had a secret weapon. He set readings and I

476
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 3: was in the death house. They had moved me to

477
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 3: the Open's ind and State penitentiary on Spring Street, an

478
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 3: old Civil War prier was a little green from MI

479
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 3: the top table and two chairs. Immediately to the right

480
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 3: of that there was a big, huge oak door and

481
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 3: behind that door was the chair. They had the entry

482
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 3: on the other side. They'd walked the prisoner in strap

483
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 3: and then execute them and then bring them out that

484
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 3: door and set them on that table to cool off

485
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 3: table and basically put sandbags on them to stretch them out.

486
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 3: And that's where we and Marine met, but that's where

487
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 3: we ate lunch. My first meeting with Marie was intense.

488
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 3: I remember a woman came through some administrator in the

489
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 3: prison and pardon me, we was saying this. She had

490
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 3: a big butt and I commented on that, and Marie

491
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 3: doubts me the hot cup of coffee. I looked at

492
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 3: her and I said, woman, are you crazy? Don't you

493
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 3: know them on death row I could kill you? And

494
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 3: she just last she said, you're not gonna hurt anybody.

495
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 3: We talked and she convinced me to pick up my pills.

496
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 3: She found her in attorney to represent me Lloyd Snook

497
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 3: fresh out of law school.

498
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: Now you're in the process getting off of drugs and

499
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: you're also opening up law books on your own.

500
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 3: My mother introduced me to drugs. Marie got me off

501
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 3: the drugs and introduced me to books, and I began reading,

502
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 3: and I started picking up law books, and Virginia was

503
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 3: getting ready to execute another man mentally challenged black gentleman

504
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 3: named Earl Washington. Marie said, you know, we have no

505
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 3: attorneys to represent these guys. They're setting execution dates. You

506
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 3: need to figure out how to get them stays. You

507
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 3: need to learn to teach yourself how to help these guys.

508
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 3: And that's what I I was finally states of execution,

509
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 3: not just in Earl's case, but several of the other guys.

510
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 3: I'm brown.

511
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: What was that awakening like for you? At what point

512
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: did you start seeing beyond your own day to day

513
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: to the point where you wanted to help others?

514
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 3: Aside from Marie, there was one very memorable incident while

515
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 3: I was in the death house. The head of the

516
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 3: execution squad, Captain Parker, Anthony Parker, he asked that you

517
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 3: could pray with I said, sure, go ahead, and I

518
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 3: looked into his eyes and what I saw was my

519
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 3: own reflection, and I realized at that point that Marie

520
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 3: was right, this was wrong, and I began working to

521
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 3: stop Earl's execution.

522
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Lauren Bright Pitch Ecko.

523
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: You can listen to this and all all the Lava

524
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: for Good podcasts one week early and ad free by

525
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. In

526
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: terms of law in general, you got to the point

527
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: where you were noted as a legal scholar, to the

528
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: point that you were actually published in the Yale Law Journal.

529
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 3: Yes, I was invited to write an article for your help.

530
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 3: It was their centennial edition, a special edition. But I

531
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 3: was convinced that Earl, and by this time we had

532
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 3: DNA and Earl's case was another interesting case. It was

533
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 3: a police raper confession. They actually took him to the

534
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 3: crime scene and pointed everything out to him, and Earl

535
00:32:55,200 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 3: just said okay and landed on death roAP, falseley confession

536
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 3: to crime.

537
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 4: And remember Earle is mentally challenged, yes, and.

538
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: Had mental illness on top of addiction as well. Ultimately,

539
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: Washington would be exonerated a year after another man confessed

540
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: to having committed the murder, but not before he served

541
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: seventeen years and came within nine days of being executed

542
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: and arguing with both of your help his case all

543
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: the way up to the Supreme Court. Now back to

544
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: Joe's legal situation. When you two first met, I was.

545
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 2: Really disturbed at the mess of his case. I mean,

546
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 2: his case was just one of the worst I'd ever seen,

547
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: and so far off any map of proper judiciary conduct

548
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 2: that it was abominable. So I felt like he could

549
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 2: help us and we could help him.

550
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: Joe, what for you was the moment where you had

551
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: the aha shift that you actually were innocent.

552
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 3: Well, we got the labor word from the forensic expert

553
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 3: who tested the boots, and she gave us an affidavit

554
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 3: and said the blood on the boot is not Jose.

555
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 3: She said, if his boots had stepped in the blood,

556
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,439
Speaker 3: it couldn't have been washed off. She said, there would

557
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 3: have been evidence of it. There's nothing there. That was

558
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 3: the point for me that I said, Okay, I didn't

559
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 3: do this. It was the blood that convinced me that

560
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 3: I did it, And now I know it's not their blood.

561
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 3: And this was like the nineteen eighty five she was

562
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 3: willing to testify in court. And this is where as

563
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,319
Speaker 3: Joe said, my case was a mess because of my

564
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 3: quarter pointed tourney. He handled my direct appeal, but he

565
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 3: didn't raise anything. And in Virginia at the time, if

566
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 3: you didn't raise all your issues in your direct appeal,

567
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 3: they were waiting raise them Habeus corpus. So my appeals

568
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 3: were never hurt. Not my state, Havi, it's not my

569
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 3: federal haters. They were never heard. The issues weren't hurt.

570
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,360
Speaker 3: So the facts of my case and the constitutional violations

571
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,240
Speaker 3: of my case were never considered.

572
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 1: And then you open up that file and you realize

573
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: that there's discrepancy as to whether or not the person

574
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: who committed the murdered would have been right handed or

575
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 1: left handed, and it's at odds with the reality.

576
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 3: I'm left handed. I've got a neurological deficit on my

577
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 3: right side from being beaten ahead so much as a kid. Yeah,

578
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 3: if I used this hand, my right hand, and I

579
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,720
Speaker 3: dragged my right foot, so if I had a stepped

580
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 3: in anything, it would have been smeared all over. And

581
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 3: then we found out that none of the physical evidence

582
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:51,280
Speaker 3: actually matched me, So we tried raising that, but Virginia

583
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 3: had what's called twenty one day would any new evidence

584
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 3: in the case had to be raised within twenty one

585
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 3: days of the final conviction. If you raise it on

586
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 3: the twenty second day, it's forever bought.

587
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,720
Speaker 1: So it doesn't matter if you're innocent, doesn't matter.

588
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 3: In fact, this is the exact quote from the state

589
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 3: Attorney General at that time, MARYS. Terry. Evidence of innocence

590
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 3: is they're relative under Virginia procedural law, and every court

591
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 3: from that point on adhere to that. They said they

592
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 3: could not intervene. Luckily we got that rule loose and

593
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 3: later with Earl's case, took some years, but we got

594
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 3: it done. But and then DNA comes about, so we

595
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 3: check with the lab. We Marie digs to the records.

596
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 3: She realized that the lab retained some of the evidence.

597
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 3: So we go back to court to Norfolk. We put

598
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 3: the medical examiner on the stand. He said, yes, we

599
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 3: retain the evidence, but we can't find it. So the

600
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 3: lawyer asked, have you lost it? He said, no, we

601
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 3: haven't lost it, we just don't know where it's at.

602
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 3: And the judge said, well, I'm going to have to

603
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 3: dismiss this case without prejudice, and if y'all ever find

604
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 3: the evidence, you can come back to this day. It's

605
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 3: never been found.

606
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, which seems very convenient. Again, it's the murders happened

607
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,720
Speaker 1: in seventy nine, and it's a full decade before DNA

608
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,319
Speaker 1: is of true use in terms of how it can

609
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: be used in these sort of cases. And they conveniently

610
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: lose everything.

611
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 3: They lose by they said they haven't lost, They just

612
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 3: said they can't find it.

613
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: They still haven't. Just breeks of corruption.

614
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 2: We need to think about Joe's situation because it's not

615
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 2: a one off. I mean, this happens again and again

616
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,720
Speaker 2: and again. I've seen it personally. It all makes sense

617
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 2: if you look at the system as a killing machine.

618
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 2: That's what it's about. It's not about helping Joe, Jorantano,

619
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 2: it's not about grain in clemency in some cases, it's

620
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 2: not about any of that. It's all about killing people.

621
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 2: And so that's the context for this work and you

622
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 2: have to understand that. And once you see that, it

623
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 2: all kind of makes a sickening sense. And so that's

624
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 2: the way Joe and I got to know each other.

625
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 2: We're in a context of me visiting him at Mecklenburg,

626
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 2: of a relationship growing. Then he gets in all his

627
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 2: escapades with the Virginia Department of Corrections who fly him

628
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: all over the freaking country because they don't know what

629
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 2: to do with him. His his nonviolent witness and his

630
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 2: legal effectiveness has freaked him out. So they're putting them

631
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 2: on airplanes in the middle of the night and flying

632
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 2: him into Utah.

633
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 4: Not just an.

634
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 3: Airplane, the Governor's personal of jet.

635
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 2: So I mean it's like it's macab This whole thing

636
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 2: is crazy.

637
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 4: So through all of this.

638
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 1: They're hoping, hoping you can get killed in the process

639
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: or just die.

640
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

641
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, that's the whole point. It's killing machine.

642
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: I kept thinking of the twenty third Psalm. Both of

643
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,760
Speaker 1: you really met in the Valley of the Shadow of Death.

644
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 3: We were trenches, that's what we call We were in

645
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 3: the trenches. Yeah, and there I was. I'm going up

646
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 3: against attorney general's system, attorney generals, judges, I'm going up

647
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 3: against skilled the terms, and frankly, I was kicking the

648
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 3: asses and every turn.

649
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, how what would that must have been

650
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: like on the other end of it for you, Reverend Joe,

651
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: You know, fighting for someone's life really and at the

652
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:55,280
Speaker 1: same time realizing that their life is in constant flux

653
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 1: and jeopardy aside from the chair.

654
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 2: Well, it's a battle. I think when you think of

655
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,919
Speaker 2: our fight against the death penalting those terms, that makes sense.

656
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 2: Joe says, we're in the trenches. We're literally in the trenches.

657
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 2: We're being shot at. They're trying to kill us, they're

658
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 2: trying to kill him, They're trying to do whatever they

659
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 2: can to deter me. You get death threats, you get

660
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,359
Speaker 2: all this stuff. That's just part of it. And I

661
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 2: think the reality is the ancient Greeks they had people

662
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 2: who would come from the battle and report back the

663
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 2: results of the battle. They were called battle singers. That's

664
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 2: what Joe and I are now. We are battle singers.

665
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 2: We have been in the war and we are now

666
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 2: singing about what is actually happening. And that's what I

667
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 2: try to do in the book to let people know

668
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 2: what is actually happening in the criminal legal system that

669
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 2: we call the killing machine. And that's what's so important

670
00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,720
Speaker 2: for people to understand that, by the great of God

671
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 2: and a lot of effort, Joe Garontino is talking with

672
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 2: us today. If you had asked me in nineteen eighty

673
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 2: two what I thought the chances of that it were,

674
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 2: I would have said slim and none, not only for today,

675
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 2: but maybe the next year, because that's how bad it was.

676
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: Can you tell me the story of at one point

677
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: you gifted Joe with a replica of cross that you carry.

678
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 2: Yes, it's the symbol of the Committee of Southern Churchmen,

679
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 2: and it's the symbol of the world with an equal

680
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 2: marks in it. And then the cross is on top

681
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 2: of that, and it means we're all equal in the

682
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 2: world under the cross.

683
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 4: It's as simple as that.

684
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 2: And we all are and that's what we need to

685
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 2: act on the basis of. And it goes back to

686
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 2: my first trip to the Bronx of Detention when I

687
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,919
Speaker 2: realized I'm all equal to these guys. You know, we're

688
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 2: I come into prison to meet people, to get to

689
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 2: know Jesus. That's who we're talking about here. That's what

690
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 2: it's all about.

691
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 3: The last time I was in the death House, I

692
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 3: was wearing that cross.

693
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 1: Now I read that you then eventually were robbed and

694
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 1: someone took it from you.

695
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 3: Yes, that was after I got off death row. I was.

696
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 3: I left the death House. It brought me straight to

697
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 3: Power Tech Wrexable Center h exactly what we call it

698
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 3: the slaughter house. People died there every day. I was

699
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 3: there two days, two guys came to my shell with

700
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:48,839
Speaker 3: nines and threatened to kill me. Took the cross, I

701
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 3: took a few canteen tickets I had.

702
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: It seems to be a strange coincidence too, that.

703
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, because some of the guards that worked that unit

704
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 3: were alled the Desk Walk. The Desk Walk with volunteers.

705
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: Now, I just want to clarify because you're talking about

706
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,400
Speaker 1: the fact that in nineteen ninety one, the then Governor

707
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: Douglas Wilder commuted your sentence to life with a part

708
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: in sentencing you to life imprisonment with a recommendation for

709
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: a new trial and the possibility of parole after twenty.

710
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 3: Five years, which was unhurt and given the.

711
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: Time that you'd already served, it would have been parole

712
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 1: in thirteen years. And that didn't sit well with.

713
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 3: A lot of people. For some people didn't sit well

714
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 3: with me. When Marie walked into death House, she had

715
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 3: the draft of his order. She showed it to me.

716
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 3: She said, you want I said, let me see the

717
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 3: order and I read it and I said I'm not

718
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,240
Speaker 3: accepting it. I said, the new trial will never happen

719
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 3: and it didn't. That's Marris you Terry's famous quote. And

720
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 3: I said, they'll never parole, and marieka something she had

721
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 3: never done. She'd never asked me for anything. She said, Joe,

722
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:17,839
Speaker 3: you have to do it for me. I accepted. Mary

723
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 3: Terry came out with her evidence of entis Is it

724
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 3: irrelevant everything I said what happened would happen. I'll get

725
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 3: into the parole thing later, because that's a whole other

726
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:28,720
Speaker 3: interesting story.

727
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I was going to say that that. Okay,

728
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: so you find out that you're not going to be

729
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: put to death, but you still have life in prison,

730
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,240
Speaker 1: and you're sent to a place that in some ways

731
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 1: is just as deadly.

732
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 3: I was sent there to be killed.

733
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 1: And so immediately you're robbed. You were stabbed at one point.

734
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 3: I was stabbed the next prison.

735
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: So you're robbed, you're stabbed, and then at one point

736
00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 1: you actually lose a leg because of the lack of

737
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:03,280
Speaker 1: medical treatment.

738
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,919
Speaker 3: They had me trying to remember where I was at

739
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 3: at the time. I can't.

740
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 2: So while you're thinking, let me just say, lack of

741
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 2: medical treatment is a severe understatement here, Okay.

742
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 3: I know.

743
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: Absolutely, because it was intentional neglect and abuse.

744
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 3: Really correct, heaven a cell. I've been on a hunger strike.

745
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 3: Actually hunger struck my way all the way across the

746
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,359
Speaker 3: country to get back to Virginia. I went to stand up,

747
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 3: fell flat on my face, and they just left me

748
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 3: laying around for doctors came in and looked at me

749
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 3: and said, just leave me. A psychiatrist came through. A

750
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 3: visiting psychiatrist came through, saw me laying on the floor,

751
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:48,959
Speaker 3: came in and took one look at me and said,

752
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 3: you need to get this man to the hospital now.

753
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,879
Speaker 3: The local hospital said we can't deal with it. It's too

754
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 3: severe for us. You have to fly to MCB and Richard.

755
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 3: They decided not to fly. They drove seven and a

756
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 3: half hours to Richmond. I get to Richmond. One of

757
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 3: the young guards I'll never forgetting his name was most

758
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 3: really nice kid. He looked at me and he said, Joe,

759
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 3: you know you're supposed to die and rout. They rolled

760
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 3: me into the hospital. They made me sign paper stamp

761
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 3: to take both my legs. They were able to shave

762
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:30,800
Speaker 3: my left leg at the last minute.

763
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 1: So that seven hour that seven hour drive was basically

764
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: supposed to kill you, supposed to which would have made

765
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 1: your legal expertise and your fight for freedom miraculously disappear exactly.

766
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 3: He told me, Joe, you were supposed to die and rot.

767
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:58,240
Speaker 1: How did you keep persevering? Where did you get the strength.

768
00:46:59,560 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 4: Anger?

769
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,280
Speaker 3: Just looking at the system and seeing what was happening

770
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,320
Speaker 3: and recognizing How I got the skill? I don't know.

771
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 3: I mean I took to the law like a fish

772
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 3: takes to water, and I realized I had a talent

773
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 3: that I never knew. I had readings and Joey, they

774
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 3: were manners and they were my strength, and without them,

775
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 3: it wouldn't have happened.

776
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 4: You or my brother, Joe. It's as simple as that.

777
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 3: Yes, we are.

778
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 4: So.

779
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: Finally, on November twentyth, in twenty seventeen, twenty six years

780
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: after Governor Wilder had commuted your death sentence to life,

781
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 1: the Virginia State Parole Board finally voted to grant you parole.

782
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 1: Can you, gentlemen, take me to that moment and what

783
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: that meant for both.

784
00:47:52,760 --> 00:48:00,359
Speaker 3: Of you relief. I was at Deerfield Correctional Center where

785
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 3: they send Jerry Actor prisoners in the dormitory style prison.

786
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 3: It was a nightmare there as well. I was released

787
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 3: five days before Christmas. Marie wasn't there to see it,

788
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 3: but lawyers, a lot of folks there. I stepped out.

789
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 3: I was using a walker. I had a different leg

790
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 3: than the one I had, basically a peg leg, almost,

791
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 3: and I wheeled myself out the door, and I couldn't

792
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:32,359
Speaker 3: believe it, like I felt lighter than there. But I

793
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,320
Speaker 3: immediately stepped out the door and went to work with

794
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 3: the Innocence Project at the University of Virginia. I was

795
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 3: hired to clean up their back lagger cases. When I

796
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 3: finished with that, after about almost two years, I went

797
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 3: to work for a small law firroom. I was in

798
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 3: and out of courtrooms all over Virginia. I think I've

799
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 3: been to every courthouse in Virginia.

800
00:48:55,280 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: You've also lectured at University of Virginia, American University, Universe

801
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: of Richmond.

802
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 3: New York University Albany, probably a few about the death penalty.

803
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 3: And I think I want over some people.

804
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: That's amazing.

805
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 3: I don't go. I don't go to preach to the choir.

806
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:17,919
Speaker 3: I don't have time to preach to the choir. Give

807
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 3: me the people to.

808
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,720
Speaker 1: Believe in it, and you can change their minds.

809
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:23,719
Speaker 3: I gave a lot of talks like that.

810
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: So, Reverend Joe, I haven't gotten your take on when

811
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 1: you found out that he had been granted parole.

812
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 2: Well, I was elated because, like Marie, you know, I

813
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:43,279
Speaker 2: can appreciate Joe not wanting a conditional pardon, but look,

814
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 2: you grab whatever straw you can get and then you

815
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: worry about the next problem.

816
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 4: At least you've got that one. Uh.

817
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 2: We're not in the perfection game here. We're taking what

818
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 2: we can get. And when I heard that he had

819
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 2: received the harden was walking was going to be walking out,

820
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 2: that just really made my day. I was really elated

821
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 2: that he.

822
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 4: Was stepping out and experiencing freedom.

823
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,399
Speaker 1: What does your friendship look like today and what does

824
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 1: it mean to you today?

825
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad to see his face because I haven't

826
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 2: seen him in a while.

827
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 3: It's great, it's been it's been a while.

828
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 4: It's really great.

829
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 1: I have to ask you a question that I had,

830
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: Reverend Joe. In many ways, I see how you're religious

831
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:33,320
Speaker 1: calling dovetails with ending mass incarceration and the death penalty,

832
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 1: But how do you factor in and process the additional

833
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 1: layer of wrongful convictions into that? You know, it's not

834
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 1: just a situation where the system is broken. It's that

835
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,760
Speaker 1: the system has gotten it completely wrong.

836
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 2: It's going to happen repeatedly as long as we stick

837
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 2: with this system. So we need to move from the

838
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:04,280
Speaker 2: retributive just system to the restorative justice system. Whole different model.

839
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 2: You bring the victim and a fender together with a

840
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:10,959
Speaker 2: trained facilitator. I've done hundreds of these things and they talk.

841
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 2: So after you met with each one of them individually

842
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 2: and learn where they're coming from. It's a voluntary process

843
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 2: and that whole process, that's a way to deal with

844
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 2: the suffering and hurt, because that's what we're talking about.

845
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 2: Our current system is all about punishment, creating more suffering,

846
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:32,759
Speaker 2: more hurt, more harm. It has nothing to do with

847
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 2: restoring anyone. It does nothing for victims. So wrongful convictions now, God,

848
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 2: we're going to be having wrong convictions as long as

849
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,759
Speaker 2: we keep doing the system. It's just baked into the

850
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 2: cake because it's such a stack deck. There is no

851
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 2: way it's going to be fair for anybody who's caught

852
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 2: up in it. Without monetary resources.

853
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 3: We're dealing with the system that does not like to

854
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 3: admit mistakes, will bite you tooth and nail to the end.

855
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,839
Speaker 3: To this day, people in the system, including some people

856
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,800
Speaker 3: in the Attorney General's office, even after DNA cleared girl,

857
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 3: still say it's guilty. They back the machine, and most

858
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 3: of us are still looked out on.

859
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 2: That's why I wrote that book. That's a key hole

860
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 2: into the system so people can see how it's operating.

861
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 2: And then once you see it and realize what's going on, hopefully,

862
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 2: like Joe says, you're going to be moved to do

863
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 2: something about it.

864
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 1: I love the concept of empowering everyone to become not

865
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: only their own hero, but the champion for someone who

866
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 1: needs one.

867
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 3: The truth is out there, people just have to see it.

868
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 1: Is there anything else from your europe shared experience?

869
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 2: When someone is killed by the state, as Joe described

870
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 2: what happened to the body in Virginia, take it to

871
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 2: the cooling table. After that, there's a doctor, It performs

872
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 2: a medical examination and issues a death certificate. And on

873
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 2: that death certificate it has cause of death. The cause

874
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 2: of death is homicide.

875
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 4: Even the state is clear what they're doing.

876
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 2: This is a public murder, homicide documented by the state

877
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 2: medical examiner. We use euphemisms like executions and death penalty etc.

878
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 2: It's a cold blooded public murder, and this is being

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00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,720
Speaker 2: done in our names. These people are acting on our behalf.

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00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 2: Welcome to the murder club. I mean, I don't think

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00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 2: we really want to be a part of that.

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00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 3: We no longer have capital punishment in Virginia. I don't

883
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 3: think it's going to come back. And I can say

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00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 3: I was somewhat instrumental in help bringing that about. I

885
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:01,839
Speaker 3: testify the Senate and the House here in the jail

886
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:08,760
Speaker 3: about capital punishment, and it was abolish and the governor

887
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 3: signed and the law.

888
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 1: I sincerely appreciate your time, both of your time. I

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00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:20,760
Speaker 1: am very glad that you two are battle singers, and

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00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 1: I very much appreciate you sharing your voices with.

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00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 4: Me a pleasure.

892
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:27,800
Speaker 3: You're welcome, You're welcome.

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00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco.

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00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,319
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the

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00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 1: links in the episode description to see how you can help.

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00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler,

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00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, as well as our producers Annie Chelsea,

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00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 1: Athleen Fink, and Jackie Pauley. This series is produced, edited,

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Speaker 1: and hosted by me Lauren Bright Pacheco. Our senior producer

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00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 1: is Kara Krnhaber. Story editing by Hannah Bial, research by

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00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 1: Shelby Sorels, mixing and sound design by Nick Massetti, with

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00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 1: additional production by Jeff Clyborne. Our theme music is by

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00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,240
Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all social

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Speaker 1: media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: You can also follow me on all platforms at Lauren

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00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: Bright Pacheco. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for

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Speaker 1: Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one