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Speaker 1: Now I'm joined by James Cleverly, who is one of

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Speaker 1: the four candidates to lead the Conservative Party. James, thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me. I want to start with

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Speaker 1: the latest from the Middle East, because of course you

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Speaker 1: are also former Foreign secretary. Israel says that it started

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Speaker 1: targeted ground raids in Lebanon. Has Benjaminettaya who gone too far?

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Speaker 2: So we have to understand that Israel has been receiving

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Speaker 2: rocket attacks from Hezbollah based out of southern Lebanon for months.

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Speaker 2: When I went to Israel as foreign sectory in the

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Speaker 2: days immediately after the October the seventh atrocities, I warned

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Speaker 2: the leadership around Israel in the Arab world, and I

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Speaker 2: sent the message via intermediaries to know through to the

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Speaker 2: leadership of these Iranian proxy terror organizations that it would

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Speaker 2: be really counterproductive for them to try and further provoke

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Speaker 2: at Israel. Clearly that's exactly what they've done, and Israel

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Speaker 2: has responded. Israel has the right to self defense. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and those rockets have been landing in civilian or aimed

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Speaker 2: at civilian territory in Israel for months.

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Speaker 1: But when has this gone too far? If it becomes

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Speaker 1: a larger and longer term operation. Should the UK suspend

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Speaker 1: more arms licenses to Israel or is our support unconditional?

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Speaker 2: No, It's what this is about is we've got to

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Speaker 2: recognize the sequencing here. Israel was attacked by terrorists from Gaza.

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Speaker 2: They then took action to recover hostages and people that

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Speaker 2: have been murdered from Gaza. Hezbollah, based in southern Lebanon,

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Speaker 2: nowhere near Gaza, took that as an opportunity to start

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Speaker 2: sending missiles into Israel. The Huthis, based nowhere near Gaza,

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Speaker 2: took that as an opportunity to send missiles into Israel.

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Speaker 2: Israel is now defending itself. I've always said to the

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Speaker 2: Israelis that we support their right to self defense, and

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Speaker 2: I stand by that. I've always said to the Israelis,

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Speaker 2: to the President, to the Prime Minister, to the Defense Minister,

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Speaker 2: they have to do so within the framework of international

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Speaker 2: humanitarian law. But you've got to remember the rockets came

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Speaker 2: into Israel before Israel sent troops into southern Lebanon.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's turn to your leadership, bid now. We're expecting

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Speaker 1: you to say later today that Tories should be fighting

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Speaker 1: four things rather than always appearing to be against change

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Speaker 1: and for you that includes being four building more homes.

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Speaker 1: Will you let more migrants in to build those homes?

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Speaker 2: Well, what we should be doing is making sure that

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Speaker 2: we develop skills with British workers. I think vocational training,

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Speaker 2: lifelong training, skills training is absolutely key. Not everyone wants

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Speaker 2: to wear a suit and sit behind a desk.

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Speaker 1: And everyone wants to build homes.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely But the point is if we if we make

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Speaker 2: those really key skills high status once again as they

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Speaker 2: once were, make sure that they are well paid as

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Speaker 2: they once were. There is every reason why British people

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Speaker 2: should be in the building trade and proud to be

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Speaker 2: in the building trade. So our first port of call

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Speaker 2: should not be importing cheap labor. We've done that for

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Speaker 2: far too long and actually the OBR now shows us

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Speaker 2: it is not a net benefit to the British economy.

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Speaker 2: So we shouldn't slip down that route again, and I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't do.

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Speaker 1: That, But of course wage inflation is a key concern

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Speaker 1: for the Bank of England with its inflation problem. You

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Speaker 1: also say that you want to cut the cost of childcare,

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Speaker 1: would you relax those migration rules to let in more

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Speaker 1: childcare workers?

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Speaker 2: Now again, that We can't just keep We can't just

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Speaker 2: keep going back to the old levers. We have tried,

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Speaker 2: and you know we were punished by the voters for this.

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Speaker 2: We as a society, we have slipped into the habit

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Speaker 2: of turning into cheap imported labor to solve all our

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Speaker 2: problems rather than productivity. One of the points I was

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Speaker 2: making about childcare is government intervention through red tape and

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Speaker 2: tax has made it more expensive than in France or

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Speaker 2: in Germany. We then tax working mums in order to

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Speaker 2: subsidize those working mums to pay for the childcare that

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Speaker 2: we made more expensive. It is a nonsense. We should

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Speaker 2: be reducing the cost of childcare, having career to child

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Speaker 2: ratios more in line with our European counterparts. That would

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Speaker 2: bring down the cost, rather than having to tax working

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Speaker 2: mums in order to subsidize the process.

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Speaker 1: As suppose, I'm trying to work out if you're serious

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Speaker 1: about these ideas or if you're telling people what they

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Speaker 1: want to hear. Because you served loyally in the Johnson

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Speaker 1: Trust and Sunat government, so people want to know what

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Speaker 1: you've stand for. What is cleverlyism?

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Speaker 2: Well, so when I was a minister in someone else's administration.

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Speaker 2: I abided by a collective responsibility and I would often

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Speaker 2: be the spokesperson for that Prime minister. I am putting

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Speaker 2: my forward. I'm putting myself forward to be the next

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Speaker 2: Conservative Prime Minister of this country. So it is now

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Speaker 2: it's not just appropriate, but I am duty bound to

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Speaker 2: set out my vision and what that So my vision

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Speaker 2: is a more productive economy. We have regulated ourselves to

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Speaker 2: be a less productive economy than many of our international competitors.

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Speaker 2: That has got to change. We are too highly taxed

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Speaker 2: compared with many of our international competitors. That has got

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Speaker 2: to change, so less tax, less red tape. We've also

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Speaker 2: got to make sure we are properly defended, which is

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Speaker 2: why I'm committed to three percent of defense spending. And

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Speaker 2: also when I say less tax I don't just mean

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Speaker 2: nibbling away at margins, which is really important. I want

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Speaker 2: to make sure we send a message both domestically and

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Speaker 2: internationally that Britain is open for business. We're going to build, build, build,

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Speaker 2: We're going to get our economy firing again. We're going

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Speaker 2: to do that by taking the limiters away to unlock potential,

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Speaker 2: both in individuals and in British based businesses. We've got

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Speaker 2: to get the energy optimism, positivity, but some real energy

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Speaker 2: and that will attract international investors and support British worker.

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Speaker 1: Just to go back to defense, since you say it's

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Speaker 1: central to your vision, is the UK government doing enough

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Speaker 1: to extract those British citizens from Lebanon?

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Speaker 2: Well, when I was foreign sectary, I changed the travel

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Speaker 2: advice to advise people not to go to Lebanon. The

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Speaker 2: British government has been telling people for weeks they should

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Speaker 2: they should leave Lebanon. The point is it may well

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Speaker 2: be it is quite likely to be impossible to do

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Speaker 2: a facilitated evacuation from Leven. This is why we tell

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Speaker 2: people to leave. If people don't leave, we can't guarantee

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Speaker 2: that we can get them out, which is why we

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Speaker 2: told them to leave in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and you say that economics is going to be

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Speaker 1: at the heart of your vision. I was listening to

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Speaker 1: Liz Trust yesterday. She said she hadn't seen any evidence

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Speaker 1: that any of you running for the Tory leadership really

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Speaker 1: understand why things are so bad for the Conservatives. Is

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Speaker 1: she right?

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Speaker 2: Look, I'm a really good friend of Liz. She was

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Speaker 2: a good boss when she was foreign sectary.

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Speaker 1: She's not back to you, She's not back to anyone.

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Speaker 2: No, she's not back to anyone. We're trying to understand.

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Speaker 2: None of the former prime ministers have are backed the

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Speaker 2: leadership candidates, and that makes perfect sense. I don't always

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Speaker 2: agree with Liz, and I don't agree with her on

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Speaker 2: this case. I am setting out a very very clear agenda,

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Speaker 2: which is to ease the tax burden on both businesses

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Speaker 2: and individuals to really get activity back in the UK economy.

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Speaker 2: I want to push for greater productivity, particularly when excessive

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Speaker 2: regulation is stifling that productivity. I want to make sure

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Speaker 2: that we defend ourselves properly. Three percent is an upturn

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Speaker 2: from where we are at the moment, but three percent

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Speaker 2: on defense is considerably less expensive than going to war.

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Speaker 2: Ukraine is spending forty percent of its GDP on de

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Speaker 2: ending itself. Three percent is cheap and creating a safe

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Speaker 2: environment is good for British people, good for British.

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Speaker 1: Business, which Trump right on NATO.

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Speaker 2: Well that I've been advocating that all NATO members spent

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Speaker 2: at least that two percent. I speak to friends in

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Speaker 2: Eastern Europe who are literally bordering Russia and they are

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Speaker 2: crying out for all NATO members to spend the two percent,

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Speaker 2: which is a commitment that Karris Bay commitment is really,

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Speaker 2: really key. I've always said that I want to go further.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to spend three percent of GDP on defense.

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Speaker 1: And you know you talk about business regulation, cutting red tape,

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Speaker 1: and yet there are very few CEOs here. Why do

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Speaker 1: you think they've abandoned the party.

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Speaker 2: Well, I we've got to recognize that we're not in

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Speaker 2: government anymore. Of course, people want to influence the party

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Speaker 2: of government and because we dropped the ball that is

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Speaker 2: not us. We need to win back the ear of

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Speaker 2: British business, British voters, British people. I know that I

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Speaker 2: am best placed to do that. That is why I

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Speaker 2: am running, and that is why I know I'd be

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Speaker 2: the best leader of the opposition and ultimately take us

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Speaker 2: back into government and become Prime minister.

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Speaker 1: Do you worry that Kemmy Badenox's comments on maternity pay

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Speaker 1: are going to put women off the party.

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Speaker 2: Well they shouldn't. This is a party that has had

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Speaker 2: not one, not two, but three female prime ministers. We

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Speaker 2: promote on merit I very much, and I've made this point.

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Speaker 2: I really value, the embedded talent in working women, and

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Speaker 2: those who want to go back to work should be

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Speaker 2: able to do so. The cost of childcare, as I say,

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Speaker 2: is putting a lot of them off. That's what I

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Speaker 2: want to tackle, so that everyone in society, whether you're

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Speaker 2: a parent or not, can play an active part in

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Speaker 2: the economy, and that will remain a priority for me.

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Speaker 1: But just finally, some of the briefing again, kemmy Badenock

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Speaker 1: has been pretty toxic. Are you Tom Tooganheart and Robert

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Speaker 1: Jenerick colluding against her?

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, no no. I've made it absolutely clear

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Speaker 2: in my campaign right from the start that we would

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Speaker 2: run an optimistic and positive campaign. I said, anyone in

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Speaker 2: my team involved in blue and Blue is off the team.

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Speaker 2: No yellow card, no second chance, You're off the team.

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Speaker 2: I intend to campaign as I intend to lead, as

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Speaker 2: I intend to govern, which is by putting the best

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Speaker 2: foot forward, being optimistic, promoting my values and my ideas,

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Speaker 2: and not talking down of my friends, because every single

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Speaker 2: one of these other candidates is not just a colleague

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Speaker 2: but also a friend.

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Speaker 1: The manager James Cleverly, Shadow Home Secretary well hoping to

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Speaker 1: be the next leader of the Conservative Party, good to

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Speaker 1: join you in Birmingham. Thank you, thanks very much.