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Speaker 1: I'm a longtime listener, first second time caller. Now yeah,

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Speaker 1: right right, well, no, thanks for thinking me worthy to

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Speaker 1: be honored.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Off the Cup, my personal anti anxiety antidote.

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Speaker 2: I have a few surprises to tell you about today.

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Speaker 2: It's some breaking news, if you will. This is our

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Speaker 2: fiftieth show, if you can believe it. And I've had

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Speaker 2: so much fun talking to our incredible guests and our listeners.

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Speaker 2: We've really shared so much, from our personal mental health

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Speaker 2: challenges to our career struggles. We've covered addiction, loss, depression,

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Speaker 2: ayahuasca journeys, and we've had a lot of laughs. We've

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Speaker 2: also shared our obsession with all things coffee, which has

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Speaker 2: been so fun too. It's just been an honor to

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Speaker 2: be in your ears for the past year, and I'm

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Speaker 2: so grateful to iHeart, our guests, our listeners for giving

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Speaker 2: us this awesome platform and the space to escape politics

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Speaker 2: for even just an hour every week or so and

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Speaker 2: talk like human beings. Okay, now the news, I do

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Speaker 2: have breaking news. The first bit of news is Off

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Speaker 2: the Cup is returning for a second season. That means

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Speaker 2: all new guests, all new conversations, all new stories, and

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Speaker 2: all new answers to that most important question. When is

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Speaker 2: it iced coffee season? And I can't tell you who,

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Speaker 2: but we already have some incredible guests lined up for you.

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Speaker 2: I am so excited to come back, and we're coming

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Speaker 2: back bigger and better. So in addition to more Off

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Speaker 2: the Cup, we're bringing back Talking Coffee, where we share

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Speaker 2: coffee news. I talk to my producers Lauren and Derek

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Speaker 2: about my most favorite indulgence even if I am on

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Speaker 2: the DCAF train these days, we don't need to talk

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Speaker 2: about that. Plus, and this is really exciting, We're adding

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Speaker 2: a talking politics pod for you guys. Now listen. And

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Speaker 2: we know you like Off the Cup to be your

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Speaker 2: escape from politics in the news, and so that is

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Speaker 2: not changing. But I also know that politics is on

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Speaker 2: your mind. There's a lot going on. It's disorienting, it's confusing,

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Speaker 2: it's concerning, it's overwhelming. I'm going to talk you through it.

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Speaker 2: Every week we'll cover the latest news or the thing

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Speaker 2: that everyone's talking about. I will be your shirt bup.

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Speaker 2: We can commiserate together, we can freak out together, and

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Speaker 2: maybe once in a while I'll even help you calm

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Speaker 2: down a bit. So all new Off the Cup all

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Speaker 2: new Talking Coffee, all new talking politics. So we've got

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Speaker 2: all the important bases covered. The first episode of the

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Speaker 2: season launches October fifteenth, so put that date on your calendar.

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Speaker 2: We're really excited to see you again. And now this

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Speaker 2: is the last bit of news, the final episode of

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Speaker 2: Off the Cup for the season, and to cap off

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Speaker 2: a terrific year of podcasts. I thought we needed something

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Speaker 2: special and there's no person more special in my life

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Speaker 2: who is of podcasting age than my husband, John Goodwin.

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Speaker 2: You met him on Talking Coffee. He's everyone's favorite new Englander,

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Speaker 2: he's my favorite grown up and now he's got his

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Speaker 2: own episode. John Goodwin, Welcome to Off the Cop.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe him on the fiftieth. This is so exciting.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: Well, a special episode deserved a special guest.

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Speaker 3: I'm honored and a little, you know, teary eyed.

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Speaker 2: On a scale of one to ten, no nervous, are you?

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Speaker 4: Uh?

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Speaker 3: Maybe a four to eight?

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Speaker 2: Oh, four to eight is a wide swing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it keeps going back and forth to eight.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I mean you've listened to the podcast a lot,

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Speaker 2: so at least you know how it's gonna go, which

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Speaker 2: is an advantage at least forty.

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Speaker 3: Eight of them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly right. I wanted to have John

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Speaker 2: on because we have shared a lot on this podcast

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Speaker 2: and talking about mental health. It's a theme that runs

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Speaker 2: through it, and it's fun talking to famous people about

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Speaker 2: their lives and especially their challenges, because that can be

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Speaker 2: really meaningful for people when they hear that their favorite

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Speaker 2: comedian or actor or writer or performer had to struggle

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Speaker 2: or hit a speed bump or really needed help at

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Speaker 2: some point. It can have such a huge impact because

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Speaker 2: it makes us feel like we're less alone and it's

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Speaker 2: okay to not be okay if they can admit it,

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Speaker 2: surely we can. That's all great. But I think it's

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Speaker 2: just as important and impactful to hear from a normal

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Speaker 2: guy with a normal life about his mental health story,

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Speaker 2: because everyone's going through something and I bet, like me,

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Speaker 2: you've looked at your friends or your colleagues or your

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Speaker 2: neighbors and thought, why do they seem to be doing fine?

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Speaker 2: And I'm treading water or white knuckling it or drowning.

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Speaker 2: But you never know what other people are going through.

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Speaker 2: So that's what we're going to get into today.

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Speaker 1: Are you ready I'm ready, and I've always considered myself

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Speaker 1: perfectly average, normal, normal, and normal.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm happy to be the average show.

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Speaker 2: Well, that leads right into it. Would you describe yourself

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Speaker 2: if I described you as happy, go lucky and easy going,

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Speaker 2: would that be accurate?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I think so. I think most things roar right off me.

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Speaker 1: I'll get you know, knocked off my feet for a

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Speaker 1: few hours or a day or two, but I'd roll

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Speaker 1: right back and I'm just happy to be around with

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Speaker 1: my family and doing the things they like to do.

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Speaker 2: I think people, and I don't know if I would

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Speaker 2: include you in this, but people would describe me as

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Speaker 2: a cynic and someone who can be, you know, judgmental,

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Speaker 2: and I am not happy, go lucky. Do you think

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Speaker 2: that we're like good opposites in that way?

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Speaker 1: I don't know who opposite we are, but I think

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Speaker 1: there's there's some differences that really work well together. They

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Speaker 1: mesh and we're very good for each other to get

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Speaker 1: through the day, the month, and the year.

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Speaker 2: The day of the month and the year. That's such

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Speaker 2: a good way of putting it, because there is the

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Speaker 2: getting through the day, yeah, there's getting through a month, yeah,

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Speaker 2: And then there's getting through a year and like years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know you mostly do better getting through the

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Speaker 1: day without me around.

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Speaker 3: But I think for the month you'd like that. I

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Speaker 3: think for the month you really like having me around.

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Speaker 2: In totality, I want you around. Yeah, in a day.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it's when you're not here.

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Speaker 1: I think that nine to five block is uh, probably

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Speaker 1: ideal for no.

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Speaker 2: One needs an office, and by everyone, I mean you,

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Speaker 2: you need an office.

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Speaker 3: And by office you mean our basement.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, this is great. And I want you

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Speaker 2: to be like totally honest. And if that means you

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Speaker 2: disagree with me or correct me, well that's fine. Like

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Speaker 2: the point here is to be honest.

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Speaker 3: I'll deal with you later.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so be super honest. So let's just do some

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Speaker 2: biography because because you're not famous, people don't know you.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I was gonna push back.

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Speaker 2: People don't know you, which which is great. You grew

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Speaker 2: up in Rhode Island. You're the youngest of three, but

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Speaker 2: practically an only child, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I have two older sisters. One's eight years older, one's

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Speaker 1: twelve years older. So that's a huge difference. You know,

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Speaker 1: my older sister went off to college when I was

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Speaker 1: I don't know what's the math on this one? Like

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Speaker 1: Tannish kid didn't and my middle sister, you know, went

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Speaker 1: off to college. I remember being at her college graduation. Actually,

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Speaker 1: both of them as like a young.

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Speaker 2: Kid, a little kid. Yeah, yeah, would you say you

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Speaker 2: grew up like blue collar.

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Speaker 3: Very very blue collar.

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Speaker 1: I think my mom was a stay at home mom,

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Speaker 1: but did odd jobs, whether it's catering or working at

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Speaker 1: a women's boutique once in a while, but for the

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Speaker 1: most part, it was a stay at home mom. And

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Speaker 1: my dad worked outside in the construction trade, but not

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Speaker 1: initially in construction, but he was a he's a surveyor

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Speaker 1: and he was outside measuring.

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Speaker 3: Land all day long and that's all he did.

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Speaker 1: He didn't use computers. He you know, just just a

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Speaker 1: blue collar dad.

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Speaker 2: And he'd take you out on like landscaping jobs and

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Speaker 2: fishing excursions, and you were outside a lot.

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Speaker 3: With him, a lot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, during the summer, you know, I'd go to work

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Speaker 1: sites with him, whether he was laying out a new

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Speaker 1: road or a new construction site or new development or

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Speaker 1: just you know, for laying out land for gas lines.

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Speaker 1: That I just hang out outside with him, help him out,

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Speaker 1: learn the trade a little.

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Speaker 2: Bit, not everyone leaves your town. Oh yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: you know a lot of people that still live there. Yep,

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Speaker 2: that you grew up with. You do leave. What's your plan?

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Speaker 2: Say you're in high school, what's your plan or is

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Speaker 2: your plan to get out of there? Or is your

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Speaker 2: plan what are you thinking you'll do?

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Speaker 1: I think I always knew I would end up somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: And I was kind of nerdy in high school in

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Speaker 1: the sense that I was in an ap government class

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Speaker 1: and we learned about lobbying, and I was like, that's

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Speaker 1: what I want to do.

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Speaker 2: You're the guy that was like, at seventeen, I'm lobbying.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to be I'm going to be a federal

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Speaker 3: lobbyist and a mover and shaker.

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Speaker 2: To lobby.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, I think DC was probably where I

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Speaker 1: was going to be. Went to school down there, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I think I think I knew in high

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Speaker 1: school i'd probably leave Lockdown. Both of my sisters had

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Speaker 1: at the time. My oldest sister was in either Hong

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Speaker 1: Kong or Singapore, I can't remember, but she left right

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Speaker 1: after college, went to England, then Hong Kong and Singapore.

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Speaker 1: So my oldest sister had been international forever, and what

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Speaker 1: was she.

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Speaker 2: Doing in Singapore? This is before I even knew you.

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Speaker 3: She was in public relations at CNN.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so long before I came to CNN, Lisa, your

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Speaker 2: sister was traveling the world with Ted Turner, opening up

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Speaker 2: new bureaus and leading their pr exactly. Yeah, like what

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Speaker 2: we're talking like probably twenty years before I get journalism.

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Speaker 3: For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then my middle sister, you know, she moved to Boston,

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Speaker 1: so she had you know, it's not that far, it's

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Speaker 1: you know, an hour up ninety five, but they had

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Speaker 1: both left town, and I just knew that's what I

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Speaker 1: wanted to do. I think, you know, Cranston was It's

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Speaker 1: the third largest town ind which is saying a lot,

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Speaker 1: but it's still kind of a small town. And I

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Speaker 1: was ready to leave.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're awesome. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So you moved to DC for college, get a job

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Speaker 2: on the hell, and kind of early on your dad dies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. My dad.

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Speaker 1: I should have died in my first job, which was

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Speaker 1: at a company called New Media Strategies, which was a

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Speaker 1: great job as an entrepreneurial sort of startup, and my

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Speaker 1: dad died when I was probably twenty two or twenty

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Speaker 1: three in my first job out of college. And I

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Speaker 1: have two really interesting stories about that if you ever

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Speaker 1: want me to share them, but.

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Speaker 2: This is where you do that, Sure you share them

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Speaker 2: with me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the first one is I it's such a DC story.

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Speaker 1: I met a gentleman in a bar who turns out

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Speaker 1: worked for the CIA, and I expressed my interest in

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Speaker 1: doing the same thing. He took my number, and three

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Speaker 1: days later I got a call from the CIA. I

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Speaker 1: went through the process, I did a phone interview and

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Speaker 1: I got a letter in the mail saying you'll be

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Speaker 1: at Langley on this day for your evaluation for the

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Speaker 1: Clandestine Service.

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Speaker 2: So exciting.

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Speaker 3: I was going to be a spy. So yeah, and

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Speaker 3: I have the letter downstairs. I hope you know.

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Speaker 2: And can I just tell you it's so hot, it's

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Speaker 2: so hot.

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Speaker 3: Well, we wouldn't have met because they told me. They

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Speaker 3: told me in the interview you will not have a family.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you were like, that's fine.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So I have this letter, you know, this is the

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Speaker 1: day you'll appear at Langley for your interview.

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Speaker 3: And between the time I get the letter and an interview.

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Speaker 1: My dad dies and I contact the CIA and asked

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Speaker 1: for a deferment said, as my father not just a

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Speaker 1: death in the family. My father has died like days ago, yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: And I had to go to the funeral like the

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Speaker 1: time of this interview, and they said, sorry, that's the

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Speaker 1: time of your interview, and that's it.

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Speaker 2: Well, I listen weight for funeral, I know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if I have to put a package in a mailbox,

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Speaker 1: am I not going to do it because my dad died?

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Speaker 2: Well, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 3: Right, put a weight axe on a mailbox.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So that's one aspect which I think, you know, how

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Speaker 1: would my life have changed if you know, we know,

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Speaker 1: we wouldn't have met you, you know, and our son,

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Speaker 1: like entirely different trajectory had my dad not died when

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Speaker 1: he had, which I, you know, think about.

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Speaker 3: It's the way life works, right ye.

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Speaker 1: The other one was I was also bartending at the

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Speaker 1: number one night club in DC at the time, which

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Speaker 1: was Polyesters yep nineties floor eighties, floor seventies floor, number

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Speaker 1: one night club.

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Speaker 3: You know, two thousand people a night in this place, and.

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Speaker 1: I had worked there for probably five or six years

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Speaker 1: at the time, while working on the hill for extra

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Speaker 1: money alright, sorry, working you know, other jobs for extra money,

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Speaker 1: and a new manager came in and after like two

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Speaker 1: weeks he said, you know, I just don't like your

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Speaker 1: energy behind the bar. You do, you sell plenty of drinks,

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Speaker 1: you do, You're fine, but like there's just no flare,

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Speaker 1: there's no you know, you're not exciting.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, Okay, I.

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Speaker 1: Sell a ton of drinks, like I'm not flipping bottles,

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Speaker 1: I'm not Tom Cruise.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, but like, check the register rings now.

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Speaker 1: So so he he fires me after years of working

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Speaker 1: at this place, kind of out of the blue. But

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Speaker 1: I had worked bartending basically every Thursday, Friday, and Saturday

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Speaker 1: for six or seven years at this point, no weekends off.

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Speaker 1: And a few days after I get fired, my dad

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Speaker 1: dies and I had planned to go home for that

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Speaker 1: weekend anyway because it was my first weekend off in

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Speaker 1: like six years, and time between so planned the trip

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Speaker 1: at the flights, et cetera. Between the time I got

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Speaker 1: fired and I got home he had died, I wouldn't.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry he was. I was there when he died.

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Speaker 1: Had I not gotten fired, would not have been home

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Speaker 1: to say goodbye to my dad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Right, So, and that's like life's weird.

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Speaker 1: But it's spooky, like goosebumps for me. If I hadn't

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Speaker 1: gotten fired for this job, I thought, for no reason,

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Speaker 1: would not have been there to say bye to my dad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So you go back to d C. Do you

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Speaker 2: feel different?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I felt different.

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Speaker 1: And I tried to get back home because my mom

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Speaker 1: was going to be alone now. And I started to

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Speaker 1: apply for jobs in Rhode Island, Boston and went on

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Speaker 1: a bunch of interviews and thought that's what was going

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Speaker 1: to happen. Like time in d C was up. Time

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Speaker 1: to go home, take care of my mom. Because my

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Speaker 1: mom was not very independent. She would say, I've never

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Speaker 1: been anyone else but missus Goodwin. And I wasn't sure

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Speaker 1: she could take care of herself and knew how she was,

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Speaker 1: you know, stay at home mom.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I thought, all right, well this is what

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Speaker 3: I I do. Started to make plans to move up

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Speaker 3: and had two job opportunities, one in Boston one in Providence,

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Speaker 3: and I was like, don't do this, like this is

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Speaker 3: not where your career is, This not where your life

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Speaker 3: is supposed to be. You know, I'll be fine. So,

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Speaker 3: you know, I didn't want to go against their wishes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So I just stayed in DC.

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Speaker 2: Okay, do you need a zip of water before you

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Speaker 2: break into tears? I know my husband m let's recruit.

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Speaker 3: Let's just who's cutting onions in the kitchen?

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Speaker 2: You take an haser turn, because we're about to come

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Speaker 2: to the part of your story where your life changes

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Speaker 2: forever because you meet me.

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Speaker 5: Right, Okay, how do we meet?

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Speaker 1: We met at the Republican National Convention in Minnesota.

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Speaker 2: Oh sexy?

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Speaker 3: I mean, is this two thousand and eight? Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 3: two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was John McCain is the nomination.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was a lobbyist.

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Speaker 1: I had fulfilled my high school treatment coming to a

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Speaker 1: federal lobbyist.

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Speaker 2: And I was on the hunt.

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Speaker 1: And you were there, I think, promoting your book. And

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Speaker 1: we met and actually just became friends from there and

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Speaker 1: stayed friends for.

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Speaker 3: A few years.

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Speaker 5: Yea.

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Speaker 2: And then we eventually do get together, and it's an

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Speaker 2: exhilarating time, but it's a challenging time because I'm in

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Speaker 2: New York, You're in DC. And at this time we

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Speaker 2: both get like our dream jobs. I get a show

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Speaker 2: at MSNBC that you know I've been working toward. And

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Speaker 2: you become chief of staff to a member of Congress.

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Speaker 2: This is your biggest job at the time on the

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Speaker 2: hell and my biggest job in media, and neither of

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Speaker 2: us want to leave our lives. But we are newly

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Speaker 2: in love and about to get engaged. What's going on

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Speaker 2: in your mind at this time as we're like both

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Speaker 2: just so happy in our lives, but our lives are

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Speaker 2: not together.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I didn't think we had to necessarily

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Speaker 1: disrupt our lives to be together. We were doing modern people. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we were mobile, We know how to use trains and drive. Right,

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Speaker 1: you know, we weren't just pen pals anymore. Right, but

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Speaker 1: we you know, New York DC Quarter, it's not that far.

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Speaker 1: And I think I calculated back then there was probably

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Speaker 1: one weekend that we weren't together, kind of through our courtship,

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Speaker 1: if you will, right, Like, it didn't seem hard, and

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Speaker 1: we had great weekends together and we'd take a trip

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Speaker 1: during the week like it just yeah.

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Speaker 3: It almost made it both.

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Speaker 1: It made it easy for us to have our careers

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Speaker 1: and our jobs but also be together. Like I didn't

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Speaker 1: it didn't seem hard at all for me.

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Speaker 2: Well, and I wasn't pressuring you, You weren't pressuring me.

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Speaker 2: We were actually okay with things how they were, and

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Speaker 2: then I don't know, disx Macina or maybe one of

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Speaker 2: these life interventions. Jeff Zucker comes to the rescue. He

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Speaker 2: had just left NBC for CNN and was trying to

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Speaker 2: get me to go to CNN, not just to leave,

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Speaker 2: but to go to DC CNN to launch the new

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Speaker 2: Crossfire reboot. And even though this would have solved all

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Speaker 2: our problems, Jeff Zucker wants me to move down to

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Speaker 2: DC we can finally be together. I said no to him.

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Speaker 1: Three times, and and I encourage you to do what

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Speaker 1: you had to do. Yeah, you know, even though like

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Speaker 1: you said, it would have brought you down to DC

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Speaker 1: would have solved these problems, the problem.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I wanted you to do what was right for

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Speaker 3: you in your career, not just.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, you like no pressure. You were happy to

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Speaker 2: let me reject these offers, and then the offer got

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Speaker 2: too good. Finally said yes, and I'm so glad I did.

380
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Speaker 2: I enjoyed MSNBC a lot, but obviously change my life.

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Speaker 2: Everything about that vision when it came, how it happened,

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Speaker 2: changed my life. And then we get to be together.

383
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Speaker 2: So then we have that chapter. We have Jack CNN

384
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Speaker 2: again wants to move me back up to the city,

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Speaker 2: this time for a new show. And it's my own show.

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Speaker 2: So another big career opportunity. We move up to Connecticut.

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Speaker 2: You have to leave the place you've been for twenty years.

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Speaker 2: All your friends, all your jobs have been there, Your

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Speaker 2: entire life is there. It's a company down. What are

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Speaker 2: you thinking as you're preparing to leave all of that behind?

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Speaker 2: For me? I mean one for my job.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I never thought I would leave DC. I never

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Speaker 3: envisioned it.

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Speaker 1: And I had always said and this sounds so cliche,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure other people have said it, like when

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Speaker 1: I stopped being impressed by the Washington Monument in the

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Speaker 1: White House and the Capitol Building and these sites that

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Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to see every day that most

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Speaker 1: Americans probably get to see, you know, once in a

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Speaker 1: lifetime or on a postcard. When I got tired and

401
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:00,960
Speaker 1: no longer impressed than I it would be time to go.

402
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,400
Speaker 1: And I hadn't reached that now at this point, right,

403
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,440
Speaker 1: and I had a strong network. It's such a networking town.

404
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,359
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's the currency.

405
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Speaker 3: It is the currency.

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Speaker 1: That's how you survive there by having these networks and

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Speaker 1: that's how you get your next job and three jobs

408
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Speaker 1: down the road. So I just didn't see it happening.

409
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Speaker 1: But the family was too important, and I knew again,

410
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Speaker 1: happy go Lucky, I'd figure something out. Yeah, Like it

411
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Speaker 1: wasn't gonna be the end of the world.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: At this point, friends had family, so it was a

414
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Speaker 1: different town than it was when it was my twenties

415
00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,399
Speaker 1: or thirties, right, And you know, I missed New England.

416
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Speaker 1: I think folks who'll argue whether or not Connecticut is

417
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Speaker 1: New England, particularly this part of Connecticut it's Yankeeville. But

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Speaker 1: I know, but you know, I was excited the opportunity

419
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Speaker 1: to raise Jack as a New england Er like I was.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's how I sweetened the deal. I

421
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,640
Speaker 2: was like, we won't move to the city, right, I'll

422
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Speaker 2: work in the city, but we'll move to a New

423
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Speaker 2: England town. I'm from New England too, Like, we'll move

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Speaker 2: to a place you love.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. If this had been moved to New York City,

426
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Speaker 3: it would have been different cover.

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00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:01,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know you wanted to know part of that.

428
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. I also think career wise, I saw it was

429
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Speaker 3: an opportunity.

430
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I had been in politics and government relations

431
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,679
Speaker 1: are in and around the government for so long. I

432
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Speaker 1: had always wanted to take that next step to go

433
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Speaker 1: in house corporate communications. After being a pre secretary and

434
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Speaker 1: a communications director and a PR consultant.

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Speaker 3: I was like, Okay, this is an opportunity.

436
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Speaker 1: I'm leading to the biggest city, go to the biggest

437
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 1: city leaving DC. Yeah, and maybe this is my chance

438
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,760
Speaker 1: to be in house corporate comms. So I was excited

439
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,479
Speaker 1: about the prospects of that as well. And it just

440
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 1: made sense, you know, kind of mature career wise, professionally,

441
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 1: but also you know, personally with the family.

442
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:44,720
Speaker 2: And it did. I mean, it all worked out. You

443
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 2: got a great job. I start my job, We move

444
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,560
Speaker 2: up to Connecticut, We settle into a very nice suburban

445
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,919
Speaker 2: New England town, small town, great schools, literal white pick offense,

446
00:21:54,800 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 2: literal white pick offense, adorable, kiddo, black lab, I mean, perfection.

447
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 2: Accept a couple years and I have a nervous breakdown.

448
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 2: And I want to talk about this from your point

449
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 2: of view, because I've already talked about from mine a

450
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 2: lot on this show. It's COVID, but we've gotten through

451
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 2: COVID pretty well. But I have this nervous breakdown. I'm

452
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 2: very clearly not okay. How do you interpret those first

453
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 2: days before we really know what's going on, what's going

454
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 2: through your mind?

455
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,640
Speaker 1: I'll be very candid, please. And I think I've said

456
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 1: this for a long time. I'd never understood mental health

457
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,159
Speaker 1: and people's mental health challenges because I had not felt

458
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,959
Speaker 1: them myself. I couldn't empathize. I couldn't understand, you know.

459
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 1: I'd always think, just get over it, just move past it.

460
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 1: How bad can it be? Despite having family members who

461
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 1: had struggles, yeah, very some very close to the members

462
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 1: who had struggled, It's still I still couldn't comprehend it

463
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 1: because it just didn't affect me. And I was, you know,

464
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,159
Speaker 1: out of bed, figure it out, shake it off, right,

465
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 1: But you know, I didn't understand it. So this was

466
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: a shock because the closest person to me was now

467
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:13,160
Speaker 1: going through it and I didn't understand it. Yeah, And

468
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 1: I think it took me weeks or months or maybe

469
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: I'm still working on understanding it, right, But in that moment,

470
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 1: I just knew I had to take care of Jack. Yeah,

471
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 1: make sure things are in the house, kept going, Yeah,

472
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 1: continue working my job, and support you with whatever you needed. Yeah,

473
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 1: that's that's all I knew, without knowing exactly what was

474
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 1: going on, how you got there where you were going.

475
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 3: I had to support.

476
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 2: But to your credit, you never asked me like explain it,

477
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 2: make it make sense to me. You never put that

478
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 2: on me to like help you, really convince you of anything.

479
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,479
Speaker 2: I would tell you how I felt, you'd accept that

480
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,360
Speaker 2: completely unconditionally, and you'd move to what do we need

481
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 2: to do? What can I do? How can I be helpful?

482
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 2: So even though maybe you weren't understanding, maybe you were

483
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 2: even judging, I don't know, you didn't share any of

484
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,640
Speaker 2: that with me, so that didn't become part of my problem.

485
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,120
Speaker 3: I could see it with my own two eyes.

486
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 2: What could you see?

487
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 3: I could see what it was doing.

488
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 1: To you, that I was a different person, And I

489
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 1: could see it manifesting physically in how you were acting,

490
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: caring yourself, how you looked.

491
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 2: So you did you didn't think I was like indulging some.

492
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: Bad day, Oh right, okayah No, But despite you know,

493
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: family members, I had never seen it up close and personal,

494
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 1: physically manifest.

495
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 3: Itself like I did with you. Yeah, and that hurt.

496
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: I never want to see you like that. But you

497
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: know I I that brought it home, like this is

498
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,920
Speaker 1: real and you know I just need to support her,

499
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:54,959
Speaker 1: help her figure out how to get through it.

500
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: Are you sad or angry that I've thrown this new

501
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 2: wrench into our dynam at this moment? You can be

502
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 2: completely honest. Are you as part of you selfishly but

503
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 2: but normally saying this is not what we need? Like

504
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 2: what everything was going great?

505
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:15,199
Speaker 3: No? I don't think so.

506
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 1: I think I just I felt bad for you, and

507
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 1: I think without being able to empathize, I was sympathizing, yeah,

508
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 1: and feeling very bad for you and wanting to protect

509
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 1: Jack and make sure Jack wasn't as disrupted. You know,

510
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: there were some moments where I didn't know what to

511
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: do or how I was going to step up or

512
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: a role, what role I was to play, or how

513
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: long this would last? Like is this the the future?

514
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: Is this long term? Is this the new normal? For ever?

515
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 3: And ever? I didn't know any of those things, So

516
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 3: there was some feeling sorry for myself.

517
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: Sure a little bit, Yeah, that was that was hard.

518
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 2: Did you ever go to like the worst possible place,

519
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 2: like what if my wife needs to be institutionalized.

520
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 3: Worse than that you.

521
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 2: Went to worse than that? Yeah, what was worse than that?

522
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 3: You doing something to hurt myself? Yeah yeah I went there.

523
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, uh yeah.

524
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: It was hard and I did feel a little sorry

525
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: for myself at I think it's I'd like to think

526
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: it's hard not to.

527
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 2: I think that's totally normal.

528
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,959
Speaker 3: It's you know, extra burden that you were anticipating. It

529
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 3: was new. Yeah, you didn't ask for it, like overnight,

530
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 3: it was.

531
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 1: It happened so fast and flipped a lot of things

532
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: on its head. So yeah, that was tough, and you know,

533
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: I don't want to sound like like I'm the victim.

534
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,360
Speaker 2: No, This is the important conversation to have because if

535
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: someone's listening who is not experiencing a mental health crisis,

536
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 2: but is the spouse of someone who is, or the

537
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 2: parent of someone who is, or the child of someone

538
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 2: who is, it's important to hear how this impacts everyone

539
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 2: and the things that like helped me in this moment,

540
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 2: and the things that you did to help yourself, because

541
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 2: what if we had both.

542
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 3: Fallen apart nightmare for our kido?

543
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so it would have been unreasonable to expect

544
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 2: you to not take any of this on emotionally, Yeah,

545
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 2: but you also knew I've got to I've got to

546
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 2: navigate this as the strong parent right now. And I

547
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 2: not that I was always the strong parent, but I

548
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 2: was always a very strong partner in this family. And

549
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 2: suddenly I needed to be taken care of, which was new.

550
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

551
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: I think you know two things that I think helped

552
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: me in the situation. One is going through my dad's

553
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: death at a young age, where I had to call

554
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 1: the funeral home to.

555
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 2: You had to be like a grown up.

556
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I had to tell my grandfather.

557
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

558
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: So having had to step up for my mom, my sisters,

559
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: other people in my family, I kind of had lived

560
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: through that. It's not, you know, to apples, but I

561
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: had almost had training and okay, it's time to step up.

562
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 3: And I think.

563
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 1: Secondly, you know, acts of service is kind of how

564
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 1: I show love sometimes.

565
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 2: That's your love language.

566
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it helps that. Okay, No, I have to

567
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 3: do X Y zero in the house. I have to

568
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 3: make sure Jackets fed. I have to make sure Jackets

569
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 3: off to school. I have to make sure Sarah is

570
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 3: you know, see is getting the water. You know.

571
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: I feel like there wasn't a didn't feel like a

572
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: burden to me because that's how.

573
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 3: I show I love to you anyway.

574
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, those having those two things actually helped me a

575
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: little bit in those tough few days.

576
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I imagine you didn't tell many people what we

577
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: were going through because it was private. Was that lonely?

578
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 3: Yeah?

579
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was only I didn't you know, I didn't

580
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: have a whole lot of folks to talk to up

581
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: here anyway after moving up. Yeah, and you know, you know,

582
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: your son's little league friends dads aren't your friends. Those

583
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: are different friends than friends you grew up with or

584
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: had talked more shaded and yeah, you know, I wasn't sure.

585
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: It's also tough to talk to your family about it

586
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: because I think when you're in a marriage, there's always

587
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: the chance of some judgment from the in laws.

588
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 3: I don't think we have that in.

589
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: Our We have great in laws all around, but.

590
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: It's always it's in the back of my mind. Yeah,

591
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: you know, is this when my mom is like, I

592
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: always knew there was something, is this one that's going

593
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 1: to come out?

594
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 3: So I think that was always in the you know.

595
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: But also I just respected your privacy because not only

596
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: is this a private matter, but being a public person,

597
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: it's so much more important to be private about it.

598
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 2: But then I tell everyone, Yep, I didn't ask you

599
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 2: if I could write about my breakdown, which I did,

600
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 2: or talk about it on TV or in podcasts, which

601
00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 2: I did. I just did it. Was Is that okay

602
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 2: that I didn't even ask you?

603
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 3: Yes?

604
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 2: I actually feel bad about that. I don't I don't

605
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: need permission to tell my story, but like I probably

606
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: should have asked you, I'm about to tell people this

607
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 2: and it's very personal about our family. Are you okay

608
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 2: with this?

609
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: I don't remember at the time, but I do think

610
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: I knew is your story to tell, and I think

611
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: there was some healing in it for you to tell it.

612
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of good, positive reasons for

613
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: you to tell this story. I think I remember being

614
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: okay with it, and maybe maybe we.

615
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 2: Did talk a little bit before I did. Maybe I

616
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 2: did say, like I want to start talking about it.

617
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 3: I recall that.

618
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: But also to the previous point, you know, the muzzles off,

619
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: and now I can talk to my family, my friends.

620
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 2: Right, and you're not hiding a secret, right, Yeah?

621
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: I can just send them to your you know, your

622
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: an article will be like, see this link.

623
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 3: This is why I've been at laughed in mind to

624
00:30:59,040 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 3: work lately.

625
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: Yeah insert Lincoln slack Yeah yeah, yeahah No.

626
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 3: I think it made it easier.

627
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: But also the most important part of this is by

628
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: reading what you're writing, by hearing you talk about it,

629
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: helped me understand it, but also gave me tools to

630
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: talk about it. So I wasn't using the wrong terms,

631
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: the wrong phrase.

632
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 2: Here is how she's talking about it, so I can

633
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 2: use the same language.

634
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. It gave me the language and helps me

635
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 3: talk about it with others.

636
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I didn't want to get sick over it

637
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 2: because I was already dealing with a lot, and secrets

638
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 2: keep you sick, So I just wanted to release it

639
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 2: and get it out there because I wasn't ashamed of it.

640
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 2: I was scared and I was confused, but I wasn't ashamed,

641
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: and keeping the secret felt like shame, and it's why

642
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 2: I not in that moment, but eventually, over time, in

643
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 2: an age appropriate way is to talk to Jack about

644
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 2: it as well, because I don't want him to think

645
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 2: it's something I'm ashamed of afraid to talk about. Because

646
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 2: I don't want him to be afraid to talk about it.

647
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 2: So it's not like we celebrate it. But you know,

648
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 2: I think that was intentional for me. This is not

649
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: a shame situation we're going to have in this family.

650
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 2: And I remember telling him once. I think I remember

651
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 2: telling him that I had missedcarried before him, and he

652
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I don't know, I don't want to

653
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 2: talk about it. Let's keep that secret that's private in

654
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 2: our family. And I said, we don't have to talk

655
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 2: about it, but it's not a secret because I'm not

656
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 2: ashamed of it, and I don't want you to be

657
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 2: ashamed of some of these things that happen in life. Yeah,

658
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 2: so that was part of my reason in talking about

659
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: it too.

660
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: Sure, it's funny because our son is one who is

661
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: embarrassed of hearing good things about himself.

662
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: Yes, he gets very embarrassed.

663
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: He cannot stand praise or you know, if I tell

664
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: a story of something I'm proud of. So it's yeah,

665
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: you know, I can't imagine I'm talking about this kind

666
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: of stuff.

667
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 2: I know.

668
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 3: No, I think.

669
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: I think in a weird way, I liked you talking

670
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: about it for a number of reasons, you know, like not.

671
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 3: Living in secrecy, giving me the tools, et cetera.

672
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: But I also wanted you to heal, and I think

673
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: if you thought that was important for you to heal,

674
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: then you should one hundred percent be doing it.

675
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 3: And it was, yeah, helpful, And I'm not embarrassed at all.

676
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 2: Uh huh.

677
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: I'm proud of what you've done since and how you've

678
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: handled it and how you've taken steps to feel better

679
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: and understand it. So I have zero embarrassment about this

680
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: at all. And I hope that's okay.

681
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 2: That's that's more than anyone could ask for. So I

682
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: get help. I'm struggling, but I'm getting better. I'm working

683
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 2: through it. And then you lose your job. Yeah, until then,

684
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 2: you'd been employed consistently, one very big job after another

685
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 2: since moving up here, lots of people working under you,

686
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 2: and this one wasn't a total surprise. You knew the

687
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: company was going to restructure. You knew that you were

688
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 2: going to be given a package to leave, which was helpful.

689
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 2: It's not like the rugs pulled out from under you.

690
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 2: One day you have a big job, the next day

691
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 2: you don't. We knew this was coming, but still, what

692
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 2: are you thinking as you're about to be unemployed for

693
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: the first time in your life.

694
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 3: Yeah.

695
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: So in a way, I was a victim of my

696
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 1: own success because my company was acquired by a much

697
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: bigger company. Yeah, and as these things go, you know,

698
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,439
Speaker 1: the executive team was given packages because they didn't need

699
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: a second head of comms and a second head of legal,

700
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: et cetera. So, you know, my first thought was, I'm

701
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: going to find a new job in two months. I

702
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: am sought after. I know I'm good at this. I'm

703
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 1: coming off a huge job. People knew who I am.

704
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 2: Several huge jobs.

705
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 1: Yeah right, several huge jobs are row plus the political background,

706
00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: which I think helps.

707
00:34:58,920 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 3: This is going to be easy.

708
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: Have you know, nice padding in my bank account? When

709
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 1: I get rehired in just a couple of months.

710
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 2: And you're thinking, gosh, I hope I I'd like to

711
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 2: take a little time off. I hope I have enough off. Yeah,

712
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 2: get some hunting and fishing exactly right.

713
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: I wanted like just a couple of months to play

714
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 1: some golf and hunting fish before I, you.

715
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:19,919
Speaker 2: Know, get back in the next.

716
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 1: Big job, which I thought would be very similar on

717
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: par you know, either lateral or a step up for

718
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:25,879
Speaker 1: the next job.

719
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 4: That did not happen, right, right, Yeah, Months go by, yes,

720
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 4: and you are I mean, you were actively looking for

721
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 4: jobs every single day, talking to everyone, headhunters, recruiters.

722
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 2: Months go by. What are your fears as the months

723
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 2: go on and you're not employed?

724
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think as I started getting some rejections, and

725
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 1: you know, I was working with the recruiters sometimes for

726
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 1: months on the same job and had six, seven, eight

727
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: interviews for these positions to get to the final sort

728
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: of interview and then be told, you know, we're going

729
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: to a different direction. Mostly because of geography, the people

730
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: weren't hiring remotely anymore. But but every as those started

731
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 1: to add up, I started to get pretty nervous, pretty

732
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: scared nobody wants me.

733
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 3: I started to blame certain.

734
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 2: Things, you know, social factors, social.

735
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,319
Speaker 3: Factors, political factors, you know, really.

736
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 1: Started to blame those and you know, almost justify that

737
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: as the reason these things are happening, economy getting worse,

738
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: and I heard that from the people. Then I just

739
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: stopped getting interviews. So it went from I mean, at

740
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: one point I had four jobs that I was interviewing

741
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 1: for and I was like, oh shit, I have to

742
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: choose one of these. And it was like am I

743
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 1: ready to go back to work, Like what if I

744
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 1: choose the wrong one? None of them materialize, and then

745
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,320
Speaker 1: you know, the crew started to fall off. I'd apply

746
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: for a job and not get any response, or you know,

747
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 1: we're going in a different direction. And just kept happening

748
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: and happening, snowballing and snowballing, and I eventually get to

749
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 1: the point where I just thought I was never going

750
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: to get hired, like ever, like no one's gonna want me.

751
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: I remember you saying that, like I'll never get a job,

752
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 2: and you know me saying, of course you will, of

753
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,879
Speaker 2: course you will. But I'm also watching this and you're

754
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 2: not the only one going through it. And I think

755
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 2: that's why it's important to tell this story because a

756
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 2: lot of men were in this situation, and so we're women,

757
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 2: but specifically men suddenly out of work or not getting

758
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 2: the jobs that they believed they were always going to have,

759
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 2: and that's so disorienting and disruptive, and it made you angry,

760
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 2: very angry.

761
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think i'd always put some value on

762
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 3: my job for who I am.

763
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 2: I don't think you put some value. I think, like me,

764
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 2: we're a lot alike in this regard. We're very identified

765
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 2: by our work, and that was a big part of

766
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: who you think you are.

767
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: Your work absolutely, yeah, and I think you know, whether

768
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: it's networking purposes, you know, in DC, it's the first

769
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: question everyone asked, you.

770
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 2: Know, what do you work for?

771
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 3: It? For it?

772
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: And for twenty years I had been proud of my jobs,

773
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: and that's had defined me, despite my first boss and

774
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: one of my mentors saying, your job does not define you.

775
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:26,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, you forgot that real quick.

776
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 3: Forgot it real quick. Yeah, And it had been part

777
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 3: of who I was for so long.

778
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, those months turned into two years

779
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 1: and I started my own PR firm and had some

780
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: great clients and clients that I loved and and you know,

781
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: had some money coming in.

782
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 3: But the work was sort of fulfilling and I love those.

783
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,880
Speaker 1: Clients, but it wasn't the full time job that I

784
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: thought I would get. So my expectations were actually tanking

785
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 1: the reality and that I had a good job. I

786
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:01,919
Speaker 1: was enjoying it, I had great clients, I had money

787
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,919
Speaker 1: coming in, but I was so mad that I wasn't

788
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,280
Speaker 1: getting the job I thought I was going to get. Yeah,

789
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: it just kept kind of snowballing into more and more

790
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: anger and dread. I think dread is probably even more

791
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: descriptive the worker.

792
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 2: So that dread and that uneasiness, I'm sure was defined

793
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 2: a lot by Okay, I've been in this job, in

794
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 2: this industry for a long time and I want to

795
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 2: be back in it and I'm not, and that's annoying.

796
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 2: What percentage of it, though, was as a man, as

797
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 2: a father, as a provider? Like, did that factor in

798
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 2: at all? Because you know, because I work too. It's

799
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 2: not like you are the soul breadwinner, but I know

800
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 2: you feel very responsible for a family and you are,

801
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 2: so how much of it was provider man stuff?

802
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 3: Yeah? A lot, right, you know. I mean you know

803
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 3: I pay our shape of our expenses course, yeah, and

804
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 3: you know we we well for.

805
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 2: People who don't know. Sometimes I have been low in

806
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 2: the job count, and you are like one responsible for,

807
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 2: you know, keeping up our life. So it's not like,

808
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,359
Speaker 2: you know, it's not like you're married to an heiress. Yep,

809
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 2: that's not our life, guys.

810
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 3: One of these days that will line up for we're

811
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 3: both in the best jobs possible, No, but usually we're not.

812
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 2: Usually it's you know, one of us is carrying the load,

813
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 2: the other one's working really hard. But and then it

814
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 2: goes back and forth, and so you've been in the

815
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 2: position of carrying the load and now you're sort of

816
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: under underwater in that respect. And so you know, I

817
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 2: just want for people who know, like, I'm not an heiress. No, okay,

818
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:49,879
Speaker 2: we both have to work here.

819
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's a lot because whether you think about it,

820
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: it's just traditional roles.

821
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 3: But it's actually more than that. It's reality, right.

822
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: I think it takes two incomes to survive now, and

823
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 1: I wanted to do my share.

824
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 3: And even if you were an heiress, I think I

825
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 3: still would have these feelings.

826
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 2: Of wanting to work, Yeah, to work.

827
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: And provide and I have, you know, on top of

828
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: the family, I also have hobbies, right that I want

829
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: to support and do. And I think one of the

830
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 1: tough aspects of this is I started to feel like

831
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: I didn't deserve my hobbies.

832
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, talk about that a little more, because that

833
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 2: was hard. I would convince you, like, go fishing today,

834
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 2: and you felt like I don't deserve to, Yeah, because.

835
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,439
Speaker 1: Because I didn't think I'd earned the right to go

836
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: fish or to do any of my hobbies because I

837
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: wasn't working hard enough or enough, or earning enough to

838
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,280
Speaker 1: feel like I deserved some recreation, whether it was fishing

839
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 1: or hunting or a round of golf. And you know,

840
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: fishing doesn't cost money. I have the equipment already. Yeah,

841
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 1: I just got to go down to the beach, right

842
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 1: and you know, throw some lures in the water. But

843
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 1: that was a block for you, Yeah, because I felt

844
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 1: like I should be doing something else, I should be working,

845
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: even when there necessarily wasn't work. It was a total

846
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 1: block that I did not deserve to enjoy myself, take

847
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,720
Speaker 1: care of myself, treat myself, do things I like because

848
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 1: I wasn't providing and earning and doing the job that

849
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: I thought I deserved.

850
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 2: And I also remember, you know, obviously I traveled this

851
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 2: journey with you. It got to a point where I

852
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 2: got where you were angry. We talked about why you

853
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 2: were angry, We talked about why you were frustrated. We

854
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 2: were talking the whole time, but it got to a

855
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 2: point where you just weren't yourself anymore, and I felt

856
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 2: like I was losing you. And you kept saying, well,

857
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 2: once I get the job, all of this will turn around.

858
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 2: And I'll be fine again. And that could have been true,

859
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 2: But I also know the slippery slope of mental health

860
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 2: and the slope to depression, which is so hard to

861
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 2: pull yourself out of when you get too far into it.

862
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 2: And so I remember just saying to you at some

863
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 2: years in Okay, I think I want you to talk

864
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 2: to someone, like I'm gonna need you to talk to someone,

865
00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 2: because I don't want to lose you to this on

866
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 2: your road to getting the job that you think is

867
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 2: going to solve it all. Because I believe that you'd

868
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 2: get there, I don't want to lose you in the process.

869
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 2: So I think I gave you like an ultimatum you

870
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 2: gave me ultimate I don't know if that was the

871
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 2: right thing to do, but like that's what I did.

872
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 2: I said, you need to talk to someone. Now.

873
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I would have if you hadn't, So

874
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: you know, it felt like tough love and felt a

875
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: little harsh, and I was a little angry.

876
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, when ultimatum came through.

877
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 2: Did I But did I say do this or I didn't.

878
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 2: I don't think there was an or else.

879
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 3: I don't know if there was an exact sort of

880
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 3: it wasn't like.

881
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,280
Speaker 2: You need to do this or something's going to happen.

882
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 2: I just say you need to talk to someone now, Yeah,

883
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,720
Speaker 2: because I think I talked to you about like this.

884
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 3: Is irresponsible now, like we can't do this anymore.

885
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:06,439
Speaker 2: We can't do this and to be a responsible partner, father, employee,

886
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: all the things you need to start talking to someone.

887
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 2: I think that was the conversation.

888
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, I think so. Yeah.

889
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 1: It wasn't like you know, you have to do this

890
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 1: or else or I'm gonna do x y ze either. Yeah,

891
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 1: more of like you you have to do this, yeah,

892
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 1: for yourself and for us. And you know, I'd always

893
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 1: my whole life he I'd never had challenges with mental health, right, right,

894
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: So this was new to me. And also even if

895
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 1: I did, I always thought I was smart enough to

896
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: figure it out on my own and I don't need

897
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: to talk to someone. I'll just work it out in

898
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: my brain and I'll be fine, which I think I

899
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 1: did for some minor things, you know, whether it's my

900
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: dad passing or you know, some other things that were

901
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 1: traumatic or had caused some challenges, I'd always just thought

902
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: myself through it. Yeah, And I think my positive attitude

903
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 1: always just.

904
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 3: Helped me get through.

905
00:44:51,560 --> 00:45:00,320
Speaker 1: Also, this was different, and the blocker here was the practical.

906
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 3: Solution that I thought.

907
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: I knew and had, which was, I'll just get this

908
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 1: job and every feeling, every feeling I have will go away.

909
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: I'll no longer, you know, be angry, I'll no longer

910
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: be sad, I'll no longer have this sense of dread

911
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 1: and whatnot.

912
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 3: But I remember, I.

913
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: Mean, this was happening when like I was on the

914
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: couch for like three days straight and crying, not eating.

915
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: The physical manifestation in me was shocking, Like I'd.

916
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 2: Never treated yourself that way.

917
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had never felt this way, particularly not eating

918
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: as we do. It's probably shocking, but I wasn't hungry.

919
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 1: I lost my appetite. I didn't, you know, I didn't

920
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 1: want to go do my hobbies. I just wanted to

921
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 1: sit on the couch. And you know, I didn't want

922
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: to do that anymore either, But I still just thought,

923
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: as soon as I get this job, I'll jump up

924
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 1: off the couch. I'll be great. I'll get back out

925
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 1: there and this will be behind me. It's not going

926
00:45:57,880 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 1: to linger. They'll have none of these feelings.

927
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:00,479
Speaker 2: I never have to think about again, never.

928
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 3: Have to think about again.

929
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 1: This is this one sort of you know, rifle shot

930
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 1: solution of a new job will take care of all

931
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:12,800
Speaker 1: these concerns. But when was that going to happen. It

932
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: had been years of looking for this job that hadn't materialized,

933
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: and so I couldn't let this go on, and definitely

934
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: I had to. I had to figure that out.

935
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 3: And then I.

936
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: Think to your point, there was other feelings and needs

937
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 1: beyond that practical solution around whether it's middle age parenting.

938
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 1: You know, it's not going to hurt to talk to

939
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 1: someone figure out all these things so.

940
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 2: Right, and new things could come up as we go

941
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 2: through life together. Yeah, where having someone to talk to

942
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 2: might be really helpful, especially if that's someone has been

943
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 2: talking to you for some time and you don't have

944
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:59,240
Speaker 2: to catch them up, you know, in a in dress

945
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 2: you know well, but you've been talking to them and

946
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,439
Speaker 2: they know your story and they know your journey. I

947
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 2: just thought it was, yeah, helpful. What were some of

948
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 2: those early conversations and therapy like for you?

949
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: I just want to point out though without that ultimatum,

950
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:13,919
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I would have done this on my own.

951
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I would have found someone to talk to.

952
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: I would have just kept focused on that practical solution.

953
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 3: And yeah, and who knows how bad things would have

954
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 3: gotten if I just kept searching and searching and searching

955
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 3: and thinking I'd find it. And it doesn't appear.

956
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 2: Well because what I was telling you was you could

957
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 2: be right. Maybe for you, this is completely circumstantial and

958
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 2: related to a specific problem, and once that problem changes,

959
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 2: everything in your life gets better. That's possible. But I

960
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 2: also talk to you about like perspective shifts, helping you

961
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 2: along the way, because the way you were seeing this,

962
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 2: I don't deserve to go do my hobbies because I'm

963
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 2: not working. I'm not valuable as a person because I'm

964
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 2: not working. Those were shifts we needed to make because

965
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 2: like my irrational anxiety, those were irrational things to think,

966
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 2: and the more you think them, the more you open

967
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 2: yourself up to more irrational thoughts and more anxiety and

968
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 2: more depression. And so it was let's get you help

969
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 2: along the way. And maybe when this panacea comes, great,

970
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 2: but maybe it doesn't for a while, so let's get

971
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 2: you help along the way. So what were some of

972
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 2: those early conversations, like for you.

973
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 1: With a professional, Yeah, yeah. So the first one was

974
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: an online service because I didn't necessarily know where to start. Yeah,

975
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: you know, so I had seen ads for the online service,

976
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: and I just got the app and went through the process,

977
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 1: you know, age, gender, Yeah, what are you concerned with today?

978
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: And they, you know, paired me with a professional to

979
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 1: talk to you, and I set up my first.

980
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 3: Sort of online call.

981
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 2: And this was a woman. It was a woman, and

982
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 2: I remember, are you not being super impressed after your

983
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:04,479
Speaker 2: first talk?

984
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 3: Not even close? Yeah.

985
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: I felt the most disappointing thing is I didn't feel

986
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:15,240
Speaker 1: that she understood me or the problem at hand, or.

987
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:20,479
Speaker 2: Like you're the life you're in yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah,

988
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,240
Speaker 2: like your career worry is she didn't get.

989
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, or you're just the sort of world I

990
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: lived in and and the sort of work I did

991
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: and the executive level I was at, and you know,

992
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 1: it was not I just didn't feel a connection or

993
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 1: a real understanding. And she signed me some workbook type

994
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 1: stuff to do and just you know, write down how

995
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: you're feeling every day, and it just didn't do anything,

996
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: and I actually made it soured me on the process

997
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: a little bit.

998
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, because this pairing was just not right.

999
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 2: It wasn't right. It was not right, And I remember

1000
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 2: talking to my therapist about it and she was like, no, no, no,

1001
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 2: John needs a man. He needs a man who's super

1002
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 2: compassionate and understands John's world. Yeah, the people John interacts with,

1003
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 2: the life he has, the job he has, Like, that's

1004
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 2: what he needs.

1005
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1006
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,320
Speaker 1: I felt like, no matter what I how much detail

1007
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 1: I got into with the first therapist, the response, her

1008
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 1: responses and her feedback was never going to change. Almost

1009
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:34,240
Speaker 1: like I could have been anybody describing a generic issue

1010
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: and it would have been the same generic sort of treatment.

1011
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, or conversation.

1012
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 1: I needed it to be very very specific to what

1013
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 1: I was going through and personal to how I was feeling.

1014
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 2: And we got you a great therapist.

1015
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's great.

1016
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 2: Who is like I think, but you clearly know better

1017
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 2: because I know him as well. Like, such a great

1018
00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 2: match for you.

1019
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not sure there'd be a a better match.

1020
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's lots of great therapists and folks wh

1021
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: will come close.

1022
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 3: But he's he's perfect.

1023
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 1: I think he understands my upbringing, he understands my career

1024
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: arc and path, he understands where I am in my life.

1025
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1026
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 3: He's a father, yeah, so he understands that aspect of it,

1027
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 3: and a husband, so he understands that aspect of it.

1028
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1029
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 1: And I think he's a very accomplished professional in his field,

1030
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 1: which is also very helpful.

1031
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:32,319
Speaker 2: Who meets other professionals exactly? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, well yeah,

1032
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 2: I mean, not to generalize or stereotype, but like, I

1033
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 2: don't think what you needed was an older woman coming

1034
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 2: in and giving you homework no and tasks no, like

1035
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 2: a teacher, like a mom like that. I don't think

1036
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 2: that's what you in this dynamic and you're you know.

1037
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 2: But the lesson here is to everyone, like, try a

1038
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 2: different therapist, yeah, because the differences between the right one

1039
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 2: and the wrong one are huge, huge.

1040
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 1: I would venture to guess a lot of folks give

1041
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: up because of a mis mismatch therapist. And that's a

1042
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 1: shame because if you can shop, yeah you yeah, if

1043
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 1: you can shop for a therapist that does understand you,

1044
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 1: I think you'll find the help you need.

1045
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 2: What's the benefit of therapy most people wouldn't think of.

1046
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 3: I think for me, it's that you can talk about

1047
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 3: anything that's kind of bothering you.

1048
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 4: You know.

1049
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: For example, this will sound so trivial to folks, but

1050
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:29,439
Speaker 1: like I used to be a good golfer and I'm

1051
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 1: just not anymore. Right, I'm older, I don't hit the

1052
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: ball as far, I don't hit it as well. And

1053
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:36,479
Speaker 1: it actually made me angry and sort of depressed because

1054
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 1: I used to be good at something and I'm no

1055
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 1: longer am. I'm sure lots of men my age feel

1056
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:42,240
Speaker 1: this way about one thing or another.

1057
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 3: And you know, I talked to my therapist about.

1058
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 1: It and he said, you know, yeah, yeah, because like

1059
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 1: it was really bothering me, and you know, maybe this

1060
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:55,480
Speaker 1: is part of sort of what the you know, midlife crisis,

1061
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: sort of like you're just not a young man anymore.

1062
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 1: And he said exactly that, like you're just not a

1063
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:02,839
Speaker 1: young man anymore. Of course you can't hit the golf

1064
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 1: ball as far as you can, like, you know, there's

1065
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 1: just this is part of growing older and you just

1066
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 1: need to accept it and get through. And I think,

1067
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 1: you know, again, it sounds trivial, but like it was

1068
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 1: actually bothering me and.

1069
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 2: That you're just getting old.

1070
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, not not the sort of

1071
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:24,840
Speaker 3: thing you want to hear. But in that perspective shift

1072
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:28,280
Speaker 3: on why that was happening, it was helpful.

1073
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 2: You're not a bad person, you're not lazy, You're just

1074
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 2: getting older.

1075
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And these are things that come with age, right,

1076
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm sure there's a lot of men

1077
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 1: my age who feel pretty shitty about getting old and

1078
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: the way it impacts what they can do, whether it's

1079
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 1: you know, they're jogging speed or how far they can

1080
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 1: ride a bike. Like, you know, life changes and you

1081
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 1: do get older, and there's lots of things that come

1082
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 1: with it. And I think if you having someone to

1083
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:59,320
Speaker 1: talk to is helpful. For sure, you know things are changing,

1084
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,359
Speaker 1: and these things can make you angry, they can make

1085
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 1: you depressed, you can feel like less of a man.

1086
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 2: And we have some guy friends in our lives who've

1087
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 2: gone through this exact thing that you've gone through. They're

1088
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 2: going through it now. It's a struggle for them too.

1089
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 2: I feel like the men are not okay, Like what's

1090
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 2: going on with guys?

1091
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I'm not sure it's a new thing

1092
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:23,279
Speaker 1: because I think back in my dad, my dad had

1093
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 1: he thought the world.

1094
00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:25,239
Speaker 3: Was against him.

1095
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 1: He thought, you know, it was never his fault that

1096
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,719
Speaker 1: he wasn't, you know, moving up in his job or

1097
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 1: getting a new job he applied for. He thought the

1098
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: world was against me. It's not my fault, you know,

1099
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:37,320
Speaker 1: why does.

1100
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 3: Everyone hate me?

1101
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 1: And struggled with what I would now look back on.

1102
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:45,760
Speaker 1: Some sort of depression, definitely some anger issues, alcohol problems,

1103
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: But I think the alcohol was tied to what he

1104
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 1: was going through, right, I mean, self medicating and not

1105
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 1: getting help and not getting help. And you know, he

1106
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:59,280
Speaker 1: was a marine and not big on help, whether it's

1107
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, or mental health wise. In fact, you know,

1108
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 1: he probably would have lived through his cancer had he

1109
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 1: not been too proud to get help with it. But

1110
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 1: I think that also applied to sort of, you know,

1111
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,719
Speaker 1: his mental health. I couldn't a million years picture my

1112
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 1: dad talking to someone, right, right, even my mom, you know,

1113
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:21,399
Speaker 1: Like I yeah, I couldn't picture him being this tough

1114
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 1: guy and talking about things that are bothering him.

1115
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:27,919
Speaker 2: But people in our generation are talking. We are more. Yeah,

1116
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 2: I think there's still a stigma among men in our generation,

1117
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 2: which is why it's so important that you're just here

1118
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:38,360
Speaker 2: talking openly and honestly about this. But like, what do

1119
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 2: you say to guys who are struggling? What do they

1120
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 2: need most? Is it another guy friend to talk to.

1121
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 2: Is it a family that's understanding and supportive. Is it

1122
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 2: a good therapist? Is it all of the above, Like,

1123
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 2: what's your advice to a guy who just feels like

1124
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:54,919
Speaker 2: I don't have a handle on my life. I don't.

1125
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:56,879
Speaker 2: I'm not happy and I can't figure out why.

1126
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:05,120
Speaker 3: I think closing yourself off, not being open, not finding

1127
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 3: someone to talk to.

1128
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 1: Whether it is buddies in a group chat, you know,

1129
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:13,319
Speaker 1: like I have a very beneficial group chat with my

1130
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:17,320
Speaker 1: college friends. Yeah that I think it can be funny

1131
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 1: as hell, but gets pretty serious at deep at times.

1132
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:21,440
Speaker 2: When you guys need it to.

1133
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we know it's a safe space. I mean

1134
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:25,960
Speaker 1: it's just the ten or eleven of us, no wives,

1135
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 1: no kids, right, and we can talk about anything, right.

1136
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:33,239
Speaker 1: I think that's incredibly helpful. If we were sharing a beer,

1137
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: it would be even better. Yeah, but you know, the

1138
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 1: way we're sort of spread out, that helps so people

1139
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 1: to talk to, people to share stuff with. If it

1140
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 1: can't be your family, if it can't be someone that

1141
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 1: lives near you, definitely one hundred percent, find a professional.

1142
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 1: It can't be someone you work with that's the like

1143
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:53,879
Speaker 1: the worst, you know, the worst idea, right, like.

1144
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 2: Don't bother your pod mate, yeah.

1145
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 1: Don't yeah, right, do not bring this up at the

1146
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:03,880
Speaker 1: company Christmas party. But I think finding the right people

1147
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 1: to talk to and be open with it, because you know,

1148
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 1: the more I've talked about it with friends, the more

1149
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 1: I realize they're going through similar but also getting similar help.

1150
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, which I think makes you makes me feel better

1151
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 3: about getting help.

1152
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you wouldn't know, oh my, like one of

1153
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 2: my best buddies also getting help. You only know that

1154
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 2: because one of you went first and said it.

1155
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't, I don't, you know.

1156
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:29,960
Speaker 1: I think there's some stigma and we probably don't talk

1157
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 1: about it much, but I think talking has been great

1158
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:37,600
Speaker 1: for me, not keeping it inside. But also, you know,

1159
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: I think trusting those closest to you, like I know

1160
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:42,919
Speaker 1: I can trust you to talk to you about it

1161
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 1: and be vulnerable when probably we weren't supposed to be.

1162
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 1: And you know, I think if you and your partner

1163
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 1: are healthy and strong, you should be able to trust

1164
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 1: them with things like this. Obviously, I think there's things

1165
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 1: you could talk to your therapist about that you can't

1166
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 1: talk to your partner, but absolutely, but for the most part,

1167
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 1: like closing it off from your partner because you're embarrassed

1168
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 1: or because you don't want them to see you that

1169
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 1: way or that vulnerable. Yeah, I think that's dangerous and

1170
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 1: just going to lead you down a hole you don't want.

1171
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:13,840
Speaker 3: To go to.

1172
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 2: Well, I don't want to make you cry it. I

1173
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 2: just think you're the best. Thanks, hold it in. I'm

1174
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 2: about to say some nice things to hold it in.

1175
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 2: Hold it in. I just want to thank you for

1176
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 2: being so open and honest about your mental health, because

1177
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 2: it really does take a lot of courage. You know,

1178
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 2: We've had like big celebrities come on and do this,

1179
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 2: but you don't have, you know, the massive platform and

1180
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 2: support and fan base and that they have. You're just

1181
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 2: a guy. You're the most important guy in my life.

1182
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 2: But it's really brave that you come and talk honestly

1183
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 2: about this. And I just think you're the best husband, friend, dad,

1184
00:58:54,640 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 2: grill master, oyster, shucker, hunting, buddy, travel companion, bird watch,

1185
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:03,919
Speaker 2: sure boat captain, dog dad, and everything else anyone could

1186
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:04,440
Speaker 2: ever have.

1187
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you. My pleasure, My pleasure is my.

1188
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 2: Pleasure to be all those things. Okay, let's do a

1189
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 2: lightning round. Okay, Red Sox Patriots or Bruins.

1190
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 3: Red Sox love them all but Red Sox, Yeah, Live

1191
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 3: or Die.

1192
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 2: What's the best movie about hockey?

1193
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 3: Young Blood?

1194
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 2: Which one is that?

1195
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 3: Rob Loo? Patrick Swayzee.

1196
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 1: He's a young American kid eighteen years old, Skinny kid's

1197
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 1: gotta go to Canada and fight his way through the

1198
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: Junior A leagues classic?

1199
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 2: Does it stand up today for.

1200
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 3: A hockey player? Does? Absolutely?

1201
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 5: Right.

1202
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 2: If there's one thing you'd like to watch me you

1203
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 2: the first time that I have not, is it watch

1204
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:06,160
Speaker 2: a Star Wars, watch a Lord of the Rings, or

1205
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 2: watch a college hockey game.

1206
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:12,200
Speaker 3: Well, if we're talking about entertainment value and how funny

1207
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 3: it would be, you know probably Star Wars Order Rings. However,

1208
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 3: you would drive me nuts trying to watch those with

1209
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 3: me and just making up the making up the name

1210
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:26,760
Speaker 3: ears like that, and which would the who was that?

1211
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 2: Why they are they related?

1212
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 3: Yeah? Exactly, So.

1213
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 1: College hockey would be fun and enjoyable and I can

1214
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 1: talk you through it, and you probably wouldn't be too

1215
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: annoying during.

1216
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 2: That annoying Yeah, I mean, don't disagree with.

1217
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 3: You and respect I do, just so annoying for you

1218
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 3: to shop on Lord of the Rings while.

1219
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 2: We're watching it, and that's all I would do with

1220
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 2: that the whole time. There's no chance I'd sit there

1221
01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 2: and be like, you were right, this is amazing. Where's

1222
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 2: this been all my life? No, there's no way.

1223
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 3: You'd be like, that's eleven and a half hours of movies,

1224
01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:58,439
Speaker 3: but I'll never get back.

1225
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:00,640
Speaker 2: I'd be like, this decision that they just made makes

1226
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 2: no sense. Forget the Ring, it's not important. Whatever.

1227
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 3: Dragons don't exist.

1228
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 2: Well that's a fact. Okay, this is a really tough

1229
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:13,760
Speaker 2: question for you, so be careful. What's the best Rhode

1230
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 2: Island food stuff? You can only save one? I know

1231
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 2: this is the hardest question John's ever probably had to act.

1232
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:25,280
Speaker 3: I mean, my brain's in a pretzel. I don't know

1233
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 3: if I can wait.

1234
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:26,920
Speaker 2: Pretzel isn't one?

1235
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 3: No, what is the best.

1236
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 2: You can only save one?

1237
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 4: Can?

1238
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:33,800
Speaker 2: I can I list some for you for our listeners?

1239
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 3: You can list them?

1240
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 2: Dell's Steamers, I know, coffee milk, hot red Hot Wieners,

1241
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 2: Hot Wieners, pizza strips, the best oh Rhode Island Calamari.

1242
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:57,960
Speaker 2: That's one of my favorites. That's a really good one. Yeah,

1243
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:00,080
Speaker 2: uh yeah.

1244
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:02,680
Speaker 3: I mean I do not know if I can answer

1245
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:11,800
Speaker 3: this question. Wow, I'm gonna say coffee milk.

1246
01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 2: I am shocked.

1247
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:16,520
Speaker 3: I can't. I don't know how to choose that.

1248
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 2: I like that just mister seafood is not saving a bivalve.

1249
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:26,480
Speaker 3: This is like trying to crazy take my favorite child.

1250
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 2: I know, I know this is hard.

1251
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 3: I don't and I don't. I can't even tell you

1252
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 3: why I said coffee milk.

1253
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 2: It's just I'm shocked at that.

1254
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 3: I just said something to get it out, to get

1255
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 3: to get to the next question. Wow, okay, I just

1256
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 3: want to move on.

1257
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 2: Wow, just get me out of here. Catch a record

1258
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 2: tuna on a lure or a record trout on a fly.

1259
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 2: Think about the words record tuna record.

1260
01:02:51,120 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 3: Yeah right, that's like a twenty two hundred pound tuna.

1261
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:57,920
Speaker 2: Yes, but we'd be millionaires. Okay, catch a record tuna

1262
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 2: or a record word trout to No, yeah, I.

1263
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 1: Mean I think I think the world record is twenty

1264
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 1: hundred So like twenty two hundred or twenty four hundred

1265
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 1: pound is massive and awesome, And.

1266
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 3: That's like in your world famous.

1267
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, world famous exactly.

1268
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:22,800
Speaker 1: A few people care if you catch a world record

1269
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 1: out the world cares if you catch.

1270
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, a place you've never been that you'd love to go,

1271
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 2: pretending Jack and I don't have to be with you,

1272
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 2: you're not considering, like well, but i'd have to bring

1273
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 2: my fans anywhere on the planet you can go alone.

1274
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 1: I want to go fishing in New Zealand. I'd love

1275
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 1: to go to New Zealand with y'all.

1276
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:45,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I want to do We're not instrumental.

1277
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 3: I want to do the things I want to do

1278
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 3: in New Zealand, right and probably.

1279
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:58,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, what's your favorite thing about our life?

1280
01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 3: How supportive we are of each other? And I learned

1281
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 3: I don't say learned this, but I one of my

1282
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 3: best friends told me this, JG. And he said, you know,

1283
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 3: if the two of you support each other, even the

1284
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 3: hardest things will be easy.

1285
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:16,120
Speaker 2: Right.

1286
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:20,080
Speaker 3: If that ever erodes, then we're in trouble. So that

1287
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 3: mutual support, where there's professional, personal, whatever it is.

1288
01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, parents, Yeah.

1289
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, being supportive of each other is the best thing. Yeah,

1290
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 1: And I think it not only helps us conquer tough things,

1291
01:04:34,640 --> 01:04:37,920
Speaker 1: it also enables us to be successful and to strive

1292
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 1: for the nice things that we want to.

1293
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, collect yourself. When is iced coffee season?

1294
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 4: Year round.

1295
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:47,400
Speaker 3: Yes, three hundred and sixty five days.

1296
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 2: Can I share something you came up with that question?

1297
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:57,040
Speaker 2: I did Derek's face right now. Before we started this podcast,

1298
01:04:57,080 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 2: I was like, I want a question to ask at

1299
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:01,400
Speaker 2: the end of every episode that is a little offbeat,

1300
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 2: but like reflects my interests. You came up with that question,

1301
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 2: and it's been the question of the pod.

1302
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:15,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can learn a lot from someone and we have. Yeah.

1303
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well that's it for Off the Cup. Thank you

1304
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 2: so much for being here.

1305
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

1306
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:23,040
Speaker 2: In my life but also on this podcast.

1307
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 3: Yeah it's fun.

1308
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:28,760
Speaker 1: I'm a longtime listener, first second time caller now yeah

1309
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:32,360
Speaker 1: right right, but no, I thanks for thinking me worthy

1310
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:33,000
Speaker 1: to be on it.

1311
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:36,680
Speaker 2: Honestly, We'll be back October fifteenth with a brand new

1312
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 2: season of Off the Cup plus Talking Coffee plus Talking Politics.

1313
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:42,760
Speaker 2: We are going to be your one stop shop for

1314
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:45,680
Speaker 2: the most important things in life. And I just want

1315
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:48,160
Speaker 2: to say, as we wrap up our first season, thank

1316
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 2: you to iHeart, Thank you to Will and Charlemagne and

1317
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:55,720
Speaker 2: Lauren and Derek for an awesome first season. This is

1318
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 2: such a great family to be in and I've loved

1319
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:03,880
Speaker 2: every second of it. As always, we want to hear

1320
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:07,480
Speaker 2: from you, especially as we head into our second season.

1321
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 2: We're going to be talking coffee, politics, and mental health.

1322
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 2: We want all your thoughts, so please email us at

1323
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 2: off the Cup at gmail dot com. That's Off the

1324
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:20,200
Speaker 2: Cup with two p's at gmail dot com. Tell us

1325
01:06:20,280 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 2: some things you'd like us to cover on the mental health, coffee,

1326
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 2: news and politics. What do you want to hear more of?

1327
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:31,320
Speaker 2: What topics do you want us to cover? Because I

1328
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:34,280
Speaker 2: want to bring you guys into this and I might

1329
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:36,960
Speaker 2: even read some of your mail on the air, So

1330
01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:43,760
Speaker 2: don't be shy. Tell us what to do. Off the

1331
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:46,160
Speaker 2: Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as part of

1332
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 2: the Reason Choice Network. If you want more, check out

1333
01:06:48,880 --> 01:06:52,800
Speaker 2: the other Reason Choice podcasts, Politics with Jamel Hill and

1334
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 2: Native Lamb pod For Off the Cup, I'm your host,

1335
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 2: se Cup. Editing and sound design by Derek Clements are.

1336
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:02,440
Speaker 2: Executive producers are me A se Cop, Lauren Hanson, and

1337
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 2: Lindsay Hoffman. Rate and review wherever you get your podcasts.

1338
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:07,560
Speaker 2: See you next season.