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Speaker 1: In February of sixteen seventy three, Thomas Cornell Junior was

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Speaker 1: in loads of trouble. His mother, Rebecca Cornell, was dead,

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Speaker 1: her body charred terribly in a tragic house fire. It

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Speaker 1: was initially ruled an accident by a coroner's jury in Portsmouth,

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Speaker 1: Rhode Island, but then after Thomas's uncle was visited by

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Speaker 1: Rebecca's ghost, he sounded the alarm about her death. Her

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Speaker 1: body was reexamined and a new coroner's jury claimed to

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Speaker 1: find a small fatal wound on her stomach, mostly hidden

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Speaker 1: by the burned flesh around it. The matrons who dressed

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Speaker 1: the corpse for burial hadn't noticed it before. Thomas and

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Speaker 1: his mother did seem to have a strained relationship. She

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Speaker 1: couldn't stand his wife, Sarah, and she was Rebecca might

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Speaker 1: have also been in poor health, But on February sixteenth,

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Speaker 1: that second coroner's jury ruled that Rebecca's death was a

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Speaker 1: suspicious one, and a surprise witness would soon solidify the

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Speaker 1: Colony of Rhode Island's case against Thomas Cornell. Thomas first

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Speaker 1: faced a murder indictment, and he would then go to trial.

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Speaker 1: That trial would take place at a tavern called the

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Speaker 1: White Horse in Newport, Rhode Island.

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Speaker 2: So usually they would do two stories for a tavern

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Speaker 2: because there would be some rooms that they would rent

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Speaker 2: out to travelers. And you can see from the beams

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Speaker 2: going across the ceiling they're quite thick, quite in their

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Speaker 2: original I'm actually surprised that the height, but that might

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Speaker 2: have been lifted over time because normally you would get

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Speaker 2: a second story that would be very low. Hard to

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Speaker 2: say whether or not that built in is original. Certainly

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Speaker 2: the woodwork is not, but that could be dating from

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Speaker 2: the nineteenth century, but the size of the fireplace is

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Speaker 2: very indicative of a seventeenth century building.

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Speaker 1: The White Horse actually still exists. It's now a wonderful restaurant.

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Speaker 1: Carrie Nolty and I went there on a November night.

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Speaker 3: This is a narrow circace.

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Speaker 4: Oh wow, Well, so this would have been what the

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Speaker 4: fireplace was like.

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Speaker 3: Actually probably smaller the central chimney stack, so.

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Speaker 2: They built around it, which is what I think that

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Speaker 2: they did with the Cornell House. I think they had

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Speaker 2: the one room originally because they had to have something

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Speaker 2: for all the elements that they were exposed to on

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Speaker 2: this island. I think it was really two rooms at

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Speaker 2: the time when we came back for then on community

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Speaker 2: to take pots.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, back in late February of sixteen seventy three, one

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Speaker 1: of Rebecca Cornell's friends, a man named John Russell, talked

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Speaker 1: with investigators. Portsmouth historian Gloria Schmidt says that John recounted

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Speaker 1: a story that really helped clarify the relationship between mother

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Speaker 1: and son, and it was really bad news for Thomas

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Speaker 1: Cornell Junior.

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Speaker 5: I think, you know, at that particular point, they start

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Speaker 5: getting testimony from other people. So on February the twentieth,

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Speaker 5: John Russell, who was from Dartmouth, toms to say, you

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Speaker 5: know what, she told me that she would be made

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Speaker 5: away with.

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Speaker 1: That's seventeenth century speak for I'm afraid that I'll be murdered.

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Speaker 5: And so that's the second thing that makes things suspicious.

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Speaker 5: So the you know, the first was the ghostly witness,

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Speaker 5: and the second was the John Russell saying, look, she

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Speaker 5: told me that she didn't want to be in this

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Speaker 5: household and that she feared that she would be done

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Speaker 5: away with. But she she's constantly complaining to people, so

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Speaker 5: this is not unusual. But he says, look, you know,

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Speaker 5: I just want to share this with you, and there's

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Speaker 5: a deposition from him.

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Speaker 1: So Rebecca really thought that someone in her family might

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Speaker 1: kill her if she stayed there much longer? Was there

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Speaker 1: that much acrimony between Thomas and Rebecca? Historia Nel Darby

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Speaker 1: says that violence between mother and son isn't all that unusual.

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Speaker 1: It can be the warped reaction of a frustrated violent person.

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Speaker 6: Well, then, obviously, if you're going to hit someone or

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Speaker 6: and plet violence on someone, you're more likely to do

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Speaker 6: it on your mother because she's going to.

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Speaker 4: Be weaker than you, or weaker than your other parents.

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Speaker 5: So there's that kind of reasoning behind it that this

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Speaker 5: violence from a young man.

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Speaker 3: You kind of understand.

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Speaker 6: Why relationships might become so fractured living in a very

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Speaker 6: kind of close.

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Speaker 5: Confines where that violence does belover and sometimes become fatal.

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Speaker 1: So was this over the money Thomas owed his mother,

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Speaker 1: or specifically their family property. Portsmouth historian Ann Burns says

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Speaker 1: she doesn't think so.

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Speaker 7: Well, then property had already been transferred into his knee.

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Speaker 1: Anne believes that if Thomas and Sarah didn't properly take

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Speaker 1: care of the aging Rebecca, then Rebecca might have been

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Speaker 1: willing to reneg on the agreement and take the property back.

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Speaker 7: Was it the fear that she could leave because part

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Speaker 7: of the agreement for the property being transferred into his

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Speaker 7: name was that Thomas moved in onto the property and

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Speaker 7: took care of it and took care of his mother.

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Speaker 1: Anne wonders if Rebecca's relatives might have brought that up

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Speaker 1: if Rebecca had tried to leave the home, maybe they'd

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Speaker 1: insisted that she refused to leave Thomas the property because

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Speaker 1: elder abuse certainly shouldn't be rewarded.

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Speaker 7: I'm kind of thinking like her brother would have been

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Speaker 7: the one that said, you know, the deal was, you

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Speaker 7: took care of your mom. She's not here anymore. Did

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Speaker 7: that give him a reason to contest the property transfer

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Speaker 7: into his name?

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Speaker 1: And Anne has another interesting theory, one that hasn't shown

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Speaker 1: up in historical records, so there's no way to actually

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Speaker 1: verify it, and it centers on John Briggs, Rebecca's younger brother.

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Speaker 7: Did John Briggs or what of the siblings have something

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Speaker 7: to gain by Rebecca passing away?

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Speaker 1: We don't know. What we do know is that Rebecca

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Speaker 1: Cornell sounded miserable before she died. Friends and neighbors began

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Speaker 1: offering their recollections in depositions for the colony, as prosecutors

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Speaker 1: began to put together an indictment against Thomas.

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Speaker 5: And when you look at the deposition and there are

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Speaker 5: things like I'm too cold, I don't have enough covers,

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Speaker 5: I have to do all these chores on my own.

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Speaker 5: He promised, you know, to take care of some of these,

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Speaker 5: and I have to take care of the pigs myself.

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Speaker 5: I don't have enough food to eat.

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Speaker 1: Witnesses repeated Rebecca's complaints against Sarah Earl, her daughter in law.

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Speaker 5: You know, my daughter in law is a maniac, you know,

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Speaker 5: all of these types of things.

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Speaker 1: Remember that Rebecca had claimed that Sarah had once threatened

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Speaker 1: one of her own step sons with an axe. But

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Speaker 1: Gloria points out that no one else testified to seeing

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Speaker 1: Sarah act violently to anyone, including Rebecca or her own children.

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Speaker 5: Well, the testimony for that is from Rebecca, So you

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Speaker 5: don't have anybody else, you know, saying that Sarah was

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Speaker 5: doing that. So I don't know whether we rebelieve Rebecca,

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Speaker 5: you know.

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Speaker 1: But also Rebecca seemed very sad much of the time.

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Speaker 1: Anne Burns and Gloria Schmidt say it might not have

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Speaker 1: been because of Thomas and Sarah.

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Speaker 8: And the only person who provided any possible support that

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Speaker 8: her brother was innocent was his sister, who said, a

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Speaker 8: couple of years ago, you know, basically I came to

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Speaker 8: visit her mother.

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Speaker 7: The daughter had been going through a really hard time

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Speaker 7: and had some dark thoughts about ending her life, and

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Speaker 7: Rebecca Cornell did, well, so have I had those dark thoughts?

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Speaker 5: You know, she would complain, but that she would also

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Speaker 5: tell people that there were times in which she was depressed,

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Speaker 5: Like she told her daughter. Her daughter had shared with

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Speaker 5: her that she had had been, you know, ill and

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Speaker 5: had been despondent, and Rebecca says, well, you know, I've

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Speaker 5: been through periods like that too, and you just you know,

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Speaker 5: have to, you know, flee from the devil, and the

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Speaker 5: devil will flee from you type thing. You know.

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Speaker 7: She talked about a pen night you're using to stab herself,

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Speaker 7: and then she said, but I pray to God and

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Speaker 7: he makes me come back and everything's going to be okay,

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Speaker 7: and I'm going to be okay, and you're going to

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Speaker 7: be okay. So the daughter provided the testimony that maybe

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Speaker 7: her mother actually committed suicide.

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Speaker 5: She spoke of it before so she does admit that

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Speaker 5: she's gone through periods where she's been depressed. So there's

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Speaker 5: some that question, well, was there something that triggered at

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Speaker 5: a suicide attempt? So there's so many different angles from

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Speaker 5: what these different depositions add to it. To me, it's

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Speaker 5: really very unclear.

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Speaker 1: And if this story seems unclear, now just wait. There

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Speaker 1: was a tremendous amount of reasonable doubt. It should probably

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Speaker 1: have been unclear for the coroner's jury and for the

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Speaker 1: court's jury. But based on the depositions, Thomas was presented

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Speaker 1: as an abusive, neglectful so yun who wanted to get

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Speaker 1: rid of his mother to finally have some autonomy like

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Speaker 1: other men in colonial America. But now Thomas Cornell had

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Speaker 1: no autonomy. He sat in jail waiting for the wheels

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Speaker 1: of justice to grind. Now, let's talk about a modern

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Speaker 1: case filled with reasonable doubt, one that led not just

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Speaker 1: to a wrongful conviction but also a wrongful execution. Cameron

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Speaker 1: Todd Willingham. Author David Gran wrote an incredible piece in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and nine about Willingham for The New Yorker

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Speaker 1: called Trial by Fire. That's in reference to the nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety one house fire that killed Willingham's two year old

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Speaker 1: daughter and one year old twins in northeast Texas.

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Speaker 9: Willingham with somebody who had been arrested for allegedly setting

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Speaker 9: of fire that had killed his three children in his house.

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Speaker 1: Arson investigators came into the Willingham house and found evidence

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Speaker 1: of what they believed were the telltale signs of arson.

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Speaker 1: So during Willingham's trial, the experts presented this evidence, and

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Speaker 1: there were also disclosures that Willingham had abused his wife. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: even she came to believe he was guilty of killing

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Speaker 1: their kids. Based on this evidence. Willingham was convicted and

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Speaker 1: sentenced to execution.

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Speaker 9: But before he went to the death chamber, a arson

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Speaker 9: investigator looked at the case and reviewed the evidence, and

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Speaker 9: he was one of the leading scientists of fire in

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Speaker 9: the country, you know, really advanced scientists, and he looked

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Speaker 9: at the evidence of the arson investigators had used and

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Speaker 9: he's like, a lot of his stuff holds up the

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Speaker 9: scientific scrutiny.

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Speaker 1: Grant says that back then, arson investigators often had very

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Speaker 1: little scientific training. They were trained, but not officially educated,

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Speaker 1: like receiving folklore from mentors.

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Speaker 9: And so for example, they had gone into the house

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Speaker 9: and they had looked at spidery glass on the windows,

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Speaker 9: and they believed if he saw the spidery glass on

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Speaker 9: the window, it was an indication that a fire had

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Speaker 9: accelerated because of an accelerant, that it clearly intensified in

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Speaker 9: heat and it caused this fire.

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Speaker 1: Arson. Investigators in Willingham's case believed that the spidery glass

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Speaker 1: was a sign that someone had used some kind of accelerant,

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Speaker 1: a clear sign of arson.

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Speaker 9: But as this scientist who was later reviewing the case knew,

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Speaker 9: there had been an instance where there had been a

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Speaker 9: forest fire and when many investigators had gotten to these

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Speaker 9: houses in this forest fire, they had seen this spidery

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Speaker 9: glass kind of looked like, you know, almost like you

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Speaker 9: fracture your wingshield. And so they went back to the

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Speaker 9: laboratory and what they learned was, well, actually the spider

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Speaker 9: glass isn't cause from intensifying heat, just the opposite. It

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Speaker 9: was caused by when the firefighters arrived and they actually

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Speaker 9: blasted cold water onto the houses to put out the fire.

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Speaker 9: So it was actually the sudden cooling. So this is

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Speaker 9: just one example of a theory that was completely bunked.

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Speaker 1: There was nothing in Willingham's house that indicated that the

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Speaker 1: fire had been started on purpose, and if it had,

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Speaker 1: there was no proof that he was the one who

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Speaker 1: did it. Graham says that the scientist was anxious to

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Speaker 1: follow his report before Willingham's execution, which was set for

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Speaker 1: two thousand and four.

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Speaker 9: He is just terrified that an innocent man is going

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Speaker 9: to be executed, because that was really the main evidence

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Speaker 9: that had convicted this man of this crime. And you know,

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Speaker 9: he puts out a report showing how this is bunk,

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Speaker 9: but there's no scientific evidence to sustain this.

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Speaker 1: All of that, and still the execution moved forward.

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Speaker 9: And subsequently, you know, leading fire investigators and scientists from

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Speaker 9: across the country have reviewed this case and found that

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Speaker 9: there is no credible evidence of evidents at all indicate

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Speaker 9: that this was an intentionally set fire. People have compared it.

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Speaker 9: When leading scientists reviewed the case, you know, compared it

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Speaker 9: to witchcraft and folklore.

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Speaker 1: Witchcraft sounds familiar. Wrongful convictions are an epidemic around the world,

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Speaker 1: but in America, our justice system is plagued by them.

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Speaker 1: Maurice Shama is a reporter with the Marshall Project. He

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Speaker 1: says that one of the issues with forensic arson experts

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Speaker 1: is that they might not be experts at all.

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Speaker 10: Sort in the absence of professionalized law enforcement, there's a

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Speaker 10: lot of room for people to sort of lay claim

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Speaker 10: to special access to knowledge and truth that can be

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Speaker 10: very convincing if they're a convincing person. I should say

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Speaker 10: that even in the late twentieth century, you had arson

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Speaker 10: investigators with very little training saying the fire speaks to me,

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Speaker 10: you know, and using this very like witchy cosmic language

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Speaker 10: around their skills, and come to find out that this

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Speaker 10: was often bullshit, and that innocent people went to prison

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Speaker 10: for accidental fires because there was sort of a fraudulent

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Speaker 10: claim that it was set intentionally.

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Speaker 1: Investigators need to look for motives to solve crimes, and

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Speaker 1: they need to consider clues that are left behind. But

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Speaker 1: Marie says that solving a crime shouldn't risk actual justice

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Speaker 1: for the survivors or the victims, and innocent people shouldn't suffer.

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Speaker 10: But I also think that we need to be sort

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Speaker 10: of careful and humble, because I mean, this case in

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Speaker 10: sixteen hundreds just sounds like a lot of tragedies in

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Speaker 10: the last fifty years where gossip about the relationship between

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Speaker 10: family members leads to a motive, a sense of a motive,

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Speaker 10: and then once you have that motive in your head,

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Speaker 10: you can kind of find evidence to support it because

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Speaker 10: human relationships are complex.

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Speaker 1: They certainly are, and in the sixteen hundreds that was

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Speaker 1: definitely true, especially in the frigid New England winters. Thomas

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Speaker 1: Cornell had really struggled along with his wife, who had

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Speaker 1: to raise their children, and Rebecca Cornell clearly struggled. Now

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Speaker 1: that we've heard more evidence, I asked relative Caring Nolty

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Speaker 1: what she thinks murder or accident or even suicide.

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Speaker 3: Do you see any way that this could have been

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Speaker 3: in an accident?

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Speaker 2: She catches fire, she's got the needle, she accidentally hurts herself,

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Speaker 2: The fire could have been an accident. There's absolutely a

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Speaker 2: chance that that could have been an accident. You can

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Speaker 2: get a piece of SAP that explodes and sparks out,

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Speaker 2: and you know she's sleeping or she's already dead. Because

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Speaker 2: one of the things that they do in the trial

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Speaker 2: transcript is that they interview friends, neighbors, and her children,

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Speaker 2: and they find out that she had at several times

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Speaker 2: talked about potentially killing herself.

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Speaker 1: I asked Carrie why Rebecca might have taken her own life.

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Speaker 1: She says, maybe because of Thomas's treatment of her. It

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Speaker 1: does sound like he said some very hurtful things to her.

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Speaker 2: She's treated so horribly by her son. At one point,

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Speaker 2: her son tells her, your name doth stink about the island.

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Speaker 2: And she is commiserating with my direct ancestor, Rebecca Junior

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Speaker 2: at one point, who had smallpox and had lost a

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Speaker 2: child and had been expressing to her mother that she

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Speaker 2: just sometimes felt like ending it all, and her mother

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Speaker 2: was saying, I have also felt that sometimes, you know,

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Speaker 2: when I thought of my lot in life and how

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Speaker 2: difficult it's been, and then I just put my faith

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Speaker 2: in the Lord, and he sustains me, and then I

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Speaker 2: am satisfied.

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Speaker 1: Carrie brings up Rebecca's complaints how heartbreaking they were.

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Speaker 2: At one point, she's forced to chase her own pigs

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Speaker 2: that have escaped their pen and she falls.

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Speaker 3: This is a seventy year old.

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Speaker 2: Woman, and she's just crying and she's upset, and she

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Speaker 2: is saying, I want to end it all. And then

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Speaker 2: again she turns to her faith in these transcripts, which

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Speaker 2: is hearsay, of course, and says, the Lord comes to

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Speaker 2: me and then I am satisfied and I'm able to

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Speaker 2: move on and stuff. So it seems as though she

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Speaker 2: has perhaps a flair for the dramatic, but also that

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Speaker 2: she is trying to commiserate with other people when they

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Speaker 2: are expressing doubts being a good n doing it in

302
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:06,399
Speaker 2: regards to her daughter, and also expressing frustration at her lot.

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Speaker 1: Carrie thinks that Rebecca had finally realized that her life

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Speaker 1: wasn't what it was supposed to be. She wasn't being

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Speaker 1: cared for properly, and her son didn't respect her.

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Speaker 2: At one point, she says that she never would have

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Speaker 2: set up the inheritance agreement the way that it's set

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00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,000
Speaker 2: up now if she knew that Thomas Junior's first wife

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Speaker 2: was going to die. So it seems like the first

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Speaker 2: wife was some kind of a buffer between them, that

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Speaker 2: there might have been some long standing friction there. It

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Speaker 2: just seems so shocking that that would be considered evidence,

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Speaker 2: that that would somehow like this person got indicted.

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Speaker 6: Also, you know it was at one time, you know

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Speaker 6: it was an accident, and no that changes after the

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Speaker 6: ghost thing.

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Speaker 5: Like there's so many any components just from like an

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Speaker 5: administrative decision making thing.

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Speaker 3: That I'm like, what, and of course I'm looking at it.

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Speaker 3: From twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like Thomas Cornell might have been an abuser

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Speaker 1: and neglectful, even cruel, but none of that necessarily made

323
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Speaker 1: him a killer. But then his wife offered some evidence

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Speaker 1: that seemed to cast even more suspicion on her husband,

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Speaker 1: and it had to do with the fact that Rebecca

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Speaker 1: Cornell was a proficient weaver.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that we get from the reports

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Speaker 2: is that Thomas is seen and this is actually, I

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Speaker 2: want to say, this is his wife who says this,

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Speaker 2: Sarah Earle, that he comes out of her room and

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Speaker 2: he's actually winding yarn on a spindle as he comes

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Speaker 2: out of her room.

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Speaker 1: We don't know much about this story. If it's true,

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Speaker 1: then that's incriminating. Remember we've said that an iron spindle

335
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Speaker 1: could be very sharp, and if this were murder, then

336
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Speaker 1: it could have been the murder weapon. It also could

337
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 1: have been nothing. Maybe he was just helping his mother

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Speaker 1: wind yarn. Regardless, in this circumstance, it was suspicious. The

339
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,199
Speaker 1: prosecutors for the Colony of Rhode Island finished interviewing witnesses

340
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Speaker 1: for depositions. Then they convened a grand jury.

341
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Speaker 2: And part of what gets them to convene a grand

342
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Speaker 2: jury to indict Thomas is the spectral evidence that John

343
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Speaker 2: Briggs has where his sister comes to him and says, look,

344
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Speaker 2: how I am burned with fire. The other thing is

345
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Speaker 2: that she had spoken to someone in months prior. We

346
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,199
Speaker 2: don't know exactly when, but she had said, I am

347
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 2: afraid that I will be made off with before the year,

348
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Speaker 2: and I'm planning on moving in with one of my

349
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Speaker 2: other sons.

350
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Speaker 3: But she didn't point to Toma's directly in that statement. No, Wow,

351
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Speaker 3: who else would it be?

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.

353
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Speaker 3: Okay, So he's indicted for what first degree murder?

354
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Speaker 2: First degree murder for murdering his mother.

355
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Speaker 3: And I'm assuming Sarah Earl is flipping out at this point.

356
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Speaker 2: She's kids, sure, she's pregnant. She is, She's a few

357
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Speaker 2: months after all of this is concluded, she gives birth.

358
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Speaker 1: In the spring of sixteen seventy three, Thomas Cornell Junior

359
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 1: went on trial at the White Horse Inn in Newport

360
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Speaker 1: for murdering his mother. The plethora of witnesses who testified

361
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 1: virtually all leaned toward the prosecution. As you can imagine

362
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 1: from what we've been hearing, there was a lot of

363
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 1: hearsay in the trial. There was even one instance that

364
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: was particularly egregious hearsay of hearsay, but oh boy, was

365
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:20,400
Speaker 1: a damaging Carrie Nulty and Gloria Schmidt say it sounded

366
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Speaker 1: like to someone that Sarah and Thomas were colluding.

367
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Speaker 2: One of their neighbors reported that another neighbor told her

368
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Speaker 2: that she had been at the prison and heard Thomas

369
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 2: and Sarah go into a separate room, but she could

370
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Speaker 2: overhear them and they said to each other, if you

371
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Speaker 2: keep my counsel, I will keep yours.

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Speaker 5: It sounded like a conspiracy. Someone said, well, you know,

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Speaker 5: I won't talk about you and you don't talk about

374
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 5: me type thing. But we don't know you know much

375
00:23:58,800 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 5: about it other than.

376
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Speaker 2: That, now small town gossip. You already think somebody is guilty,

377
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:06,679
Speaker 2: and you could be the kind of person that just

378
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 2: makes something up but could also be true.

379
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Speaker 1: What do we think about that? Sarah Earle did seem

380
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: very sneaky, But what if they weren't even talking about

381
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 1: covering up a murder? Who knows what they were discussing

382
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:27,479
Speaker 1: exactly Regardless Thomas Cornell was in a bad position before

383
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,679
Speaker 1: the trial and during the trial because he had no

384
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,880
Speaker 1: real representation, no one was really defending him.

385
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,840
Speaker 5: They were taking depositions from either people that heard something

386
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Speaker 5: from Rebecca or they had been there that night and

387
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 5: had seen something. So they had depositions from Sarah and

388
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Speaker 5: from the boys, not all of the boys, I think

389
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 5: you know, one or two of the boys, and from

390
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 5: this Henry Strait that was the border that had gone

391
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 5: into the room. And so those the people that they

392
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 5: were taking the depositions from.

393
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: Prosecutors even traveled to New York to take a deposition

394
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Speaker 1: from one of Rebecca's daughters who still lived in the

395
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: Bronx area. And during all this time there was infighting

396
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 1: between Cornell family members. Thomas's brother, William Cornell, had never

397
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: liked his second sister in law, Sarah, and now before

398
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 1: the trial was even over, everyone was anticipating a guilty verdict.

399
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 5: They know there are problems between William and the rest

400
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 5: of the family if he's trying to get Sarah tried.

401
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 5: There's also the whole matter of the fact that because

402
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 5: Thomas was considered a murderer, he could not inherit the

403
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 5: property and so there were all kinds of fights with

404
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 5: people who would be custodians of the sons, or Sarah's

405
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 5: part of her for her dowry, for her husband, and

406
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 5: all those kinds of things. Normally, the town would come

407
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 5: in and the town would take that property from someone

408
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 5: who was a murderer, so that a murderer could not

409
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 5: benefit from their crime.

410
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 1: A big question that needed to be settled quickly was

411
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 1: who would get the property if Thomas Cornell were found guilty.

412
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: Maybe not Sarah and the kids.

413
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 5: Who does it go to do the Thomas's children who

414
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 5: are innocent and get any part of it. You know,

415
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 5: they have uncles that are guardians for them, and so

416
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 5: who is protecting them. There was always a problem when

417
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 5: you had a household. The eldest son would gain the

418
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 5: property and the others would have to try and find

419
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 5: their own way. So it was messy anyway with any death,

420
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 5: But in this situation, they couldn't go from Rebecca to

421
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 5: Tom and then from Thomas to his children if he

422
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 5: was considered a murderer.

423
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: We're lucky to have these depositions from the late sixteen hundreds.

424
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 1: Besides offering specific details about the case, their existence alone

425
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: tells us a lot about the case's importance at the time,

426
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 1: and of course this was the first and maybe last

427
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: trial in which a ghost was an important witness. But

428
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 1: in addition to specifics of this case, the depositions also

429
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: show us how murder trials in the seventeenth century worked.

430
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 5: It's not like we have today, where you have a

431
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 5: trial and the witnesses come and you have cross examination

432
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 5: or something like that. It wasn't like that. They would

433
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 5: go to different people and get a deposition, and then

434
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 5: they would add all that up and the jury would

435
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 5: look at the depositions or here the depositions. Some of

436
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 5: them may not have been able to read, so they

437
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 5: would be presented the testimony any of these people. Nobody

438
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 5: was ever cross examined. And Thomas never had a lawyer.

439
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 5: He never had anybody. He couldn't say that's not true,

440
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 5: or that's a lie, or he didn't have that choice.

441
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 1: Sounds like a sham. Frankly, I asked carry noulty to

442
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: shorthand this for us.

443
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 3: So how does this go? This trial? Essentially, so it.

444
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 2: Doesn't go well for Thomas. So it seems from the

445
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 2: record that he has the right and he does take

446
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 2: the right to challenge a lot of the potential jurors

447
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 2: on the jury because you know, he's too close to me,

448
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 2: he's part of my family, he's you know, he's always

449
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: hated me, et cetera, et cetera.

450
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 3: Everybody knows.

451
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: But finally they come to a group of people who

452
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 2: are going to be the jury that he can no

453
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 2: longer argue against that there's not really any problem with.

454
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: Then the depositions from loads of people are read for

455
00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 1: the jury, loads of hearsay.

456
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 2: Lots of interview, use of friends' neighbors, them talking about

457
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 2: what they've heard Rebecca say that she was afraid and

458
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: that her son was always cross with her and using

459
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 2: terrible words.

460
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: Witnesses claimed that Sarah and Thomas treated Rebecca so poorly

461
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: that the children started treating her poorly too.

462
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 2: His wife was treating her terribly, and what grief she

463
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 2: had over it, that she was going to move the

464
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 2: report about that she was afraid that she was going

465
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 2: to be made off with.

466
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 5: Mostly hearsay, so a lot of the testimony that works

467
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 5: against him are her comments about how he mistreats her,

468
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 5: and she tells lots of people about things that she

469
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 5: wants to complain about. You know, when I look at

470
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 5: the transcript of their deposition type things, most of them

471
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 5: are talking about his not treating her as well as

472
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 5: he could good.

473
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: I asked Carrie Nolty again about the physical evidence. How

474
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: could the matrons have missed the wound the first time around,

475
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: even if there was a wound, What if it was

476
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: simply decomposition.

477
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 2: It seems like it was. So it was two women

478
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 2: that laid out the body at first, and one of

479
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 2: them was I believe Sarah Earl's mother.

480
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: So Sarah's mother was one of those matrons. I'm not

481
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: sure that means anything, but it could mean something, and

482
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: it does speak to how close knit the community was.

483
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: Thomas did try to defend himself by using the depositions.

484
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: There was so much there to choose from that perhaps

485
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: he could connect the dots differently.

486
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: They hear all of this testimony that Rebecca had been suicidal,

487
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 2: that there was a black dog that leapt out of

488
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: the room, that it was the implication that it was

489
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: God himself, you know, passing judgment on Rebecca for being

490
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 2: a bad mother, but therefore not burning down the house

491
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: because she caught fire, and not burning the clothes etc.

492
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 1: But the negative certainly outweighed the positive.

493
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 2: Rebecca was in distress that Thomas owed her money, that

494
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 2: he was withholding her rent, that he was saying things

495
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 2: like your name stink about the island.

496
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: And then one witness reported something awful that Thomas supposedly said.

497
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 2: After she died. He remarked to a neighbor that in life,

498
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 2: my mother wanted a good fire, and I guess the

499
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: Lord hath provided for now she has it. Yeah, exactly,

500
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 2: I mean, my goodness, wow.

501
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: If that's true, then Thomas really disliked his mother, regardless

502
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: of his guilt. It all framed Thomas Cornell very poorly,

503
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 1: and soon the jury reached a verdict.

504
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 2: So he is found guilty. And a lot of people

505
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 2: like to make the point that this was spectral evidence

506
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 2: and that that's why he was convicted, and it was

507
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 2: a precursor to the Salem witch trials, and it was

508
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: used as a reference in the Salem witch trials. The

509
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: spectral evidence, yes, this particular case was, However, which part.

510
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 3: John Riggs and his sister's ghost or Sarah Earle and

511
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 3: the dog the ghost.

512
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 2: The spectral evidence of the ghost is the one because

513
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 2: Sarah Earl Cornell's testimony was not under oath. Everybody else's was,

514
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 2: so people like to say that that's you know, it

515
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 2: was completely unjust because of that. But it's very clear

516
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 2: from the record to me that they used the spectral

517
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 2: evidence as a way of convening a grand jury to

518
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 2: find the initial charges, and then that in conjunction with

519
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 2: the rest of what was reported, that she was afraid

520
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 2: that some harm would come to her, that there was

521
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 2: tension about find Nancy's.

522
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 1: Okay, now let's talk about ghosts. I do believe in them,

523
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: but I'm not sure I believe in them in this case,

524
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: and neither does Carrie.

525
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 2: To me, the spectral I mean, whether or not you

526
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 2: believe in ghosts. I think we can all agree that people,

527
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 2: especially families, you know, things weigh heavily on you. And

528
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 2: you can wake up and have a dream about something

529
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: that tells you something that you may have known internally

530
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 2: but you hadn't really verbalized it or really had it

531
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 2: come to the front of your mind. That to me

532
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 2: seems like what happened with John Briggs. If I was

533
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 2: going to be very rational about it.

534
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: It actually doesn't matter if Rebecca Cornell visited her brother

535
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: in spectral form. The ghost didn't even accuse her own

536
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: son of doing anything. Anne Burne says, all that matters

537
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: is that the jury believed the evidence.

538
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 7: He got convicted on gossip and people taking sides like,

539
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 7: you know, it's like elder abuse. So they they're taking

540
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 7: the side of the you know, poor elderly mom who

541
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 7: isn't being taken care of the way she should be,

542
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 7: Like she's not being fed well, and she could he

543
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 7: wouldn't hire and made for her, and you know, he

544
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 7: wouldn't warm her bed before she got in, and then

545
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 7: she would complain to anybody who would listen. And they

546
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 7: came forward and said, yes, he's a terrible hun he's

547
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 7: a terrible fun But did that account.

548
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 1: From her her? So Thomas Cornell was convicted. Now what

549
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 1: murder convictions in the sixteen hundreds were rare, and when

550
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 1: there were convictions, they weren't typically involving people like Thomas,

551
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: someone with no criminal record. He and Sarah Earle were

552
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: both from good families in New England and now he

553
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: faced a hanging. But Thomas seemed more worried about what

554
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: would happen after his execution, How would his family be

555
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 1: taken care of?

556
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 2: So one of the interesting things about probate at this

557
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 2: time period in this place is that if you die

558
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 2: by suicide or if you commit a crime and are hanged,

559
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: then you forfeit your property and then they can parcel

560
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 2: it out or.

561
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 1: The Colony of Rhode Island could take it over. None

562
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: of that would have been good news for the Cornells.

563
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: A murder conviction was terrible, but if Rebecca had taken

564
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: her own life, that would have also been bad for them.

565
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 1: So maybe that was the cover up.

566
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,439
Speaker 2: The question is, did Rebecca die by suicide and her

567
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 2: son burned her body to cover it up so that

568
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 2: he wouldn't lose any of his inheritance that he had

569
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 2: been waiting so long for, or did either Thomas or

570
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 2: Sarah kill Rebecca and then cover it up so that

571
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 2: again they wouldn't have to pay for it, either by

572
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: being hanged or by losing the property.

573
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 1: Burns and I can't shake the idea that John Briggs

574
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: started all of this. Was it really just based on

575
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: a ghost and was he really telling the truth?

576
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 7: What did John Briggs have to gain from creating this drama?

577
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 7: He could have just let it go. Like the whole

578
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 7: thing is that John Briggs.

579
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 6: Brought this to the authorities. He is to me the

580
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 6: most curious person of all of this. Why did he

581
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 6: feel the need to go to the authorities and have

582
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 6: them reexamine her body? What did he have to gain?

583
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 7: Who was he mad at?

584
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 5: Like?

585
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 1: You know, did you think remember that John Briggs was

586
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: a founder of Portsmouth, one of the most esteemed people

587
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: in New England. Ultimately, Anne Burns and Gloria Schmidt believe

588
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: that Thomas Cornell was railroaded.

589
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,760
Speaker 7: Was Thomas Cornell Junior just a scapegoat of the time,

590
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 7: Let's hold somebody accountable, Let's, you know, show that you

591
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 7: can't commit murder and get away with it.

592
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 5: I almost think that he was convicted of being a

593
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 5: poor son rather than an eyewitness saying, you know, he

594
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 5: committed this crime. It was more while he didn't do

595
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 5: her right, those kinds of comments are I think, what

596
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 5: has the jury thinking? You know, there's something wrong here.

597
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: So Thomas Cornell Junior was set to die by the news.

598
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: But remember he allegedly had that conversation with his wife

599
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: in jail, that one about keeping secrets, And soon Sarah

600
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:43,800
Speaker 1: Earle would face accusations of her own. This story isn't

601
00:37:43,800 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 1: over yet. On the final episode of this season of

602
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: tenfold More Wicked on exactly right.

603
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 7: I think her exact words were, a great black dog

604
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:12,879
Speaker 7: leaped out of the doorway at them.

605
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 8: I interpreted that as her trying to claim in court

606
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,320
Speaker 8: that our mother in law was a witch.

607
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 5: Thomas Junior's brother sought to have Sarah pride for the murder.

608
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 2: And that's not her mother. It's an old woman that

609
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: just won't die.

610
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 3: We don't think there's anything that's been missing in.

611
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 2: This case, right, No, But in the sense that both Wikipash,

612
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 2: the former servant, and Sarah were arrested, was there conspiracy?

613
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 7: It was like a gossip mongering festival against this guy.

614
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 7: You know, they wanted to find somebody guilty.

615
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 10: In the conversations I have with people, we've reached a

616
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 10: tipping point where there is an awareness of innocent people

617
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 10: being in prison and that this is a tragedy and

618
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 10: that this is not something we as a society want.

619
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 10: But then the second question that immediately follows is well,

620
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 10: what are we going to do about it?

621
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: If you love true crime, check out my books American

622
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Speaker 1: Sherlock and All That Is Wicked. I also have an

623
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: audio book called The Ghost Club. I can't wait to

624
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: tell you the real story about the world's most famous

625
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Speaker 1: ghost hunter, who was the head of the world's most

626
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Speaker 1: famous ghost club, and how he investigated England's most famous

627
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Speaker 1: haunted house. This has been an exactly right tenfold more

628
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Speaker 1: media production producer Jason Whaling, Senior producer Alexis and Morosi,

629
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: Consulting producer Kyle Ryan, researcher Nicole Brown, sound designer Eric Friend,

630
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: additional sound design by Nicholas Mooney's composer Curtis Heath, artwork

631
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive producers Georgia hart Stark, Karen Kilgarriff and

632
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold

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Speaker 1: more Wicked