WEBVTT - Scams, Cons, Fraud + Netflix’s Ozark 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:04.600 Now really. 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:12.840 Now really well, Hello everyone, Hello to you Peter, and 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:13.760 hello to you Jason. 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:14.280 Hello. 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:17.200 Hello. I'm going to do this whole episode never know 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:17.799 what mood. 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:22.560 And this is my authentic accent everyone previously this is 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:23.040 a skepe. 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:25.000 You'll see how this thematically plays in this. 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:25.840 I didn't know better. 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:28.040 I think you want to rush my friends. 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:30.240 Welcome to another episode of Really No Really. I am 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:33.000 Jason Alexander, sitting here with my top three best friend, 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:36.000 mister the box of Peter came in the box that's right. 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:38.159 And this is really No Really, the podcast where we 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:41.240 explore things that make us say really no really, that's 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:46.880 exactly right now this one. This is kind of fascinating you, Peter. 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:49.519 So Peter likes to. 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:51.879 Complain to me. I don't know why me. 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:54.840 I guess because we are friends and because I have 0:00:54.960 --> 0:01:00.840 to complain, all right, Sure, So he's watching Ozar's watching 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:04.679 the wonderful series Ozark, which, by the way, I know 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:07.000 Jason Bateman like a scoch. 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:09.880 I've met Laura Linny. She's lovely. 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:12.039 It's not like I'm familiar with people on the show. 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:13.959 I like the show. I watch the show. I think 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:16.360 it's a really well done show, Bravo to everyone involved. 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.120 Peter will say to me a hundred times over. 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:23.400 Ridiculous, stupid. 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:27.200 You want a money launder? Why would you go to 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:32.279 the Ozarks and open a strip club and a gambling boat? 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:32.759 Please? 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:37.080 Oh sure, that's not gonna draw attention. That is the 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.800 stupidest idea I've ever heard. And I do want to 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:42.840 point out that he came up with money laundering in 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:44.839 the Ozarks as he had a gun to his head, 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:45.920 So it wasn't you know, no. 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:50.320 No, no, no, no, no, no exactly. So here's the problem. 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:52.280 I love the show too, and you went, really, no, 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:54.720 really is somebody would really no, really? 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:56.440 So we want to get an expert on to talk 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:59.320 about that, and also talk about fraud money laundering in general, 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:03.280 because there's so many stories of fraud and money laundering today. 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:05.000 But let's get to the Ozark thing for a second. 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:10.120 So Marty Bird's partner took off with drug money eight 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:11.799 million dollars, and they said, you get a launder eight 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:14.280 million bucks. He goes to Missouri to the Ozarks and 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:15.959 the first thing you do is walk into a strip club. 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:18.040 They don't know you, you don't know the neighborhood, and 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:22.880 you're gonna start spending on cash, okay, cash business. And 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:24.920 what you're gonna do is you're gonna say you're doing 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:26.840 all these renovations and then you only have to show 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:28.400 a little bit of the bill and just punk out 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:28.639 of time. 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:28.960 Okay. 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:31.240 Then he goes to buy another business the same and 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:33.560 within a second, these people are going, who is this guy? 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.280 Why's he got the cash? Within a second and then 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:39.480 season two or three, it's like Riverboat and you go, okay, 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:41.800 why not just put a target on my back and 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:43.560 say the government should check us out? 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:45.560 Who are you? They're going to do a deep dive 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:45.960 into you. 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:50.280 Why wouldn't you go somewhere where you could disappear and 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:51.600 launder money quietly? 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:52.640 Well, you wouldn't draw atten. 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:53.360 Where would that the. 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:59.880 Brooklyn, the Bronx other okay, the brocuse me? How about the. 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:06.760 South Midwest? Other cities where you're not that? Okay? Okay, 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:08.800 So we have onn't a special guest. 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:10.760 By the way, I don't want to spoilers. Five years 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:12.040 the show ran five years one. 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:16.440 But it was not fun. Did not want to say 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:18.160 it was brilliant fun, the characters great. 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:20.920 I just thought, all right, I'm happy to pursue this 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:22.840 conversation because we have a wonder. 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:23.640 Guest you introduce. 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:26.280 You introduced that where sorry. 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:32.600 He wasn't prepared for those of you who have not 0:03:32.720 --> 0:03:36.400 yet met our guest. Doctor Kelly Richmond Hope is the 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:41.200 doctor Barry Jay Epstein is it Epstein or Epstein Epstein 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:44.840 in Dowed Professor of Forensic Accounting at the pol University 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:48.920 of Chicago, Illinois and a nationally recognized expert in risk 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:54.160 forensic accounting and white collar prime research. She's the author 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:57.200 of Fool Me Once, Scam Stories and Secrets from the 0:03:57.200 --> 0:04:00.800 trillion dollar Fraud Industry, which shows for an action and 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:03.920 uncovering what makes perpetrators like Bernie Madoff heard of him 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:07.360 and Elizabeth Holmes heard of her tick and delves into why. 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:09.640 Victims can be so easily duped. 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:12.880 And She also directed and produced the twenty seventeen award 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:16.880 winning documentary All the Queen's Horses, which explores the largest 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.159 municipal fraud in the United States. 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:21.760 Istory Welcome, Doctor Kelly Richmond Boop. 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:23.720 Hello, Hello, if. 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:26.120 You like murder, I mean podcasting now is all about 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:27.880 murder mysteries. When we always joked at the end of 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:29.960 the year one of us is going to kill the other, 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:31.559 and then year two is going to be a murder mystery. 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:34.159 I'm massively popular, but well. 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:36.000 Did a documentary about that. 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.359 That documentary is so great. We're gonna tell that story 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:40.520 in a minute. But what's cool about her too is 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:43.440 she befriended a lot of white collar criminals and got 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:46.960 to know and interview them to find out and dig 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:50.120 deep about could you commits frock Andonic comment what is it? 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:54.600 And identifies that the personality types, which is fascinating to me. 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.440 And I've lined up story after story about money laundering 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:01.520 and it's it's worrisome. But as far as Ozark, if 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:03.560 we can start with that, am I right? 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:03.719 Ear? 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:04.320 Am I wrong? 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:08.120 He immediately draws attention to himself by going into strip 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:11.120 club and throwing money around. You don't know who the 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:13.880 neighborhood is, who's talking to who. You haven't really figured 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:17.640 out who knows who, who's doing stuff there, so you 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.560 open yourself up for disaster, which, by the way, happened. 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.560 You don't feel you're leading the witness with the way 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:24.560 you've posed this question. 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:25.560 I think I need all the help. 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:26.880 I let me repose it with. 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:29.640 Going to the Ozarks and investing in the strip club 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:32.279 bring immediate No, it doesn't. 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:34.040 I don't think I think he did the right thing. 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:37.080 Wow when you think yeah, I mean, when you think 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:41.160 about the three steps of money laundering, placement, layering, and integration, 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:44.880 you have to find a cash based business in a 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:48.920 really remote area. Because you think about those types of 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:52.120 businesses don't question the money. They really don't. I mean, 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:54.200 if you go and spend ten grand a cash and 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:56.560 a strip club, no one's going to question you. So 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:58.440 no one was really going to question Marty when he 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:00.960 went in and said, here's one hundred thousand dollars. 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:02.600 I want to revamp this whole place. 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:04.680 Because they're like, all right, all right, see from you. 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:06.640 I listened from him. I don't take it now. I 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:08.719 say thank you for pointing that out. Server Boat. 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:12.800 Riverboat was a good escalation or stupid good escalation. 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:15.400 I mean it's, you know, casino driven. There's a lot 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:17.800 of cash coming through, coming in, coming out. No one's 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:21.479 gonna question when cash is being depositive a from a casino. 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.160 So it made sense to me, all right, and you 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:26.039 love to see it. I mean it's risky, it's riddled 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:28.800 with risk. I mean, that's what's interesting about money laundering 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:33.080 is I think, of all the schemes, that's the hardest 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.480 one to do because it's it's just stressful. 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:37.360 I mean, just think about it. 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:40.160 You gotta buy a business, you gotta inflate invoices. You 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:43.120 got to say, Okay, we know this renovation might cost 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:45.560 twenty thousand dollars, we're going to inflate it to fifty 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.680 five or sixty thousand dollars so we can layer some 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.359 additional unclean money on. 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:51.880 Top of it. 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:52.799 I mean, it's stressful. 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.360 So it's no surprise when a money laundering scheme gets 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:58.600 caught because it's complex to keep it going. 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:00.400 So let me ask, because I got a couple of 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:04.120 headlines here, it's amazing former Goldman Sachs investment bankers sentence 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:07.159 to two point seven billion bribery and money laundering scheme. 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:09.680 Banks you're a slide on report of ramp and money 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:13.360 laundering crypto platform. It's a lot of charging money laundering. 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:16.120 Now Global banks US cracked down. I mean, it's olikar. 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:19.400 Is every major bank in global bank involved? 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:19.720 In mind? 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:23.400 It seems like every article implies banks can be bought. 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.600 There's so much money that somebody within a banking system 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:27.920 is bribable. 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:31.080 Can banks be bought? 0:07:32.440 --> 0:07:35.440 You know, I think banks have a lot of protocols 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:37.800 that are set that are put in place so they 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:41.040 can't be bought. But you know, with any rule, you 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:43.520 can get around it. I'm not going to say on 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.040 a podcast that banks can be bought because somebody. 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:51.400 I agree to that rise three times a few And 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:53.800 by the way, we're still looking for sponsorships, so let's 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:55.800 not get to yes. 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:58.520 Wow. But I think what Peter's saying is that there 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.880 seems to be ramping frauds. 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:04.560 Forget that at the banking level, but you know, sort 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:06.800 of on every level, there seems to be ramping fraud. 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:08.400 Is there a reason? Why? 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.360 Is it one of those things where there's actually more 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:13.320 of it now than there was a couple generations back, 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:14.800 or are we just hearing about it more? 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:19.480 And is it so easy to do that everybody's doing it? 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:22.400 So I think it's a couple of things that you 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:22.880 just said. 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.520 I think we're hearing about it more, but I think 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:29.640 you're finding more people willing to try it out. So 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:32.800 think about all the schemes and scams we saw during 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:37.640 the pandemic and so when the PPP loans were announced, 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:42.079 there were bankers and lawyers and doctors and chiropractors like 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:45.280 willing to lie about their business to get more money. 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:47.920 So the controls relaxed because the government wanted to help 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:50.680 people put more money in the pockets of these business owners. 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.160 And so it was set up almost to fail because 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:56.840 the typical controls that were put in place were relaxed 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:57.600 to help people. 0:08:58.040 --> 0:08:58.760 So I think. 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.559 The schemes are pretty much the same. 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:06.040 What I've noticed is the profile of those willing to 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:09.480 engage in the schemes is a little bit different. So gone, 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:12.360 in my opinion, Gone are the days of just these 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:16.240 massive organized crime units that are taking everybody for their money. 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:20.320 Now you have people like you or me that might 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:22.679 try it. We might try We might get away with 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.040 it a couple times and don't get caught. But we 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:27.160 might get caught. We might not go to jail. We 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:29.280 may people are willing to roll the dice to see 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:30.920 what's going to happen. So I think you see more 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.679 people willing to try it out to see what's going 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:34.080 to happen. 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:36.839 And I know this may not be a question that 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:40.199 you can answer, but is that is that because there's 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.280 more opportunity or more desperation or have. 0:09:44.640 --> 0:09:49.240 Are we culturally just more willing to lie and defraud? 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:50.640 So this is the thing. 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:55.559 I think that what has changed a lot about how 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:59.280 what I think about my kids versus how I grew up. 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:05.040 Wasn't exposed to the riches of celebrities, and we didn't 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:08.679 see inside their homes, we didn't see inside their vacations. 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:12.800 We didn't see people just showcasing this lavish lifestyle. 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:13.280 You didn't know. 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:15.000 I mean, you knew somebody might be on TV. You 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.199 knew somebody might be the only the only time you 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:20.440 saw it was what was the show lifestyle? 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:23.320 Yes? 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:25.000 Right, yeah, I mean that was it. 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:27.880 And so even that was like wow, but you didn't 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:31.280 see it the way you see it now on social media. 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:33.880 So I think that this idea of I want to 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:35.680 have that too, How can I get it? I'm going 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:37.360 to try it out to see maybe. 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:40.360 So the enticement has increased, basically enticement. 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:43.199 And think about it, the enticement has increased, Like now 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:45.439 if I just pick up my phone to go to Instagram, 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:49.079 I can look and see what Rihanna did, maybe what 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:51.520 she ate where she's traveling, Like I could live her 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:54.679 life through Instagram, and that might make me feel a 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:56.640 certain way where I might be willing to say, you 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:00.880 know what, maybe just maybe I can and push this 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:04.200 invoice through and maybe I won't get caught. 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:06.000 So I think more people are willing to try. 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:09.000 Check fraud is going through the roof now. And I 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:11.840 found out in one of the mailboxes near the bank 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:16.280 they'd put sticky stuff so that the letter doesn't go 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:19.480 all the way down and people come fish out your check. 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:23.760 Wash it what they call where they actually take your 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:26.000 name off put a different name on a different amount. 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:29.000 And that happened to me. It's easy, it's and it's 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:30.480 about mailbox fishing. 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:32.360 I mean, this is like going back to like the 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:35.040 fifties taking envelopes on a mailbox automatic. 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:37.040 Think about when you see that flag up that means 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:39.240 there's something in there. Let me just peek and see 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.280 what is. And another thing, you think you could probably 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:44.520 go to YouTube right now and we can figure out 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.480 all the steps on how to wash a check. It's 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.560 so easy, and so people are willing to say, hey, 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:52.200 let me try, let me see if I can get 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:52.640 this through. 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:53.600 That's crazy. 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:55.959 I had got thought of that that a lot of 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.760 the how tos of this are out there. So that's 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:03.199 what to that extent to me, and please correct me 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:08.640 if I'm wrong. The proliferation of fraud to me, has 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:12.959 a direct correlation of our ethics, and I'm just wondering 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:15.520 if there isn't if that isn't an issue. 0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:22.040 Oh yeah, and we talk about ethics fraud in the 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:25.040 classroom in a new way, you know. So there are 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:29.120 now more classes on fraud and forensic accounty than there 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:33.160 ever were before because to your point, it's just rampant. 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:38.599 I think so many people can rationalize bad decisions, and 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:40.839 we have to talk about it more and more and 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:44.240 more than just when you join an organization sign the 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:47.000 code of conduct, but we have to understand what are 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:49.840 ethical breaches, what do they look like, what do they 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:53.040 feel like. So one of the things that I did 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:55.760 is I created this game. I should have sent it 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.840 to you all. It's called the Fuomi Once Fraud Experience, 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.079 And so you go through it and it'll tell you 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:03.439 what type of perpetrator you would be. Would you be 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:07.720 intentional perpetrator, would you be an accidental perpetrator, or would 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:09.720 you be a righteous perpetrator? And we can talk about 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:12.400 those three things as we move in our conversation. But 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:16.960 what's interesting is how people can rationalize all of these 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:21.880 bad decisions. For example, if you ordered a Louis Vuitton briefcase, 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:25.440 it came to your house, and then on Tuesday another 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:27.400 one came to your house, would you send it. 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:28.679 Back or would you keep it? 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:30.200 Oh? 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:31.600 I would send it back. It's not mine. 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:32.920 I believe I would send it back. 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:36.040 I'd like to believe. How dare you well? I mean, 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:40.200 you had to admit that you. 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.800 Got it in large audiences, I probably have about six 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:48.240 thousand responses at this point. Half of these corporate professionals, 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:50.760 they could be CPAs, they could be internal auditors. 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:54.040 Half the people say I'd keep it and I'd sell 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:54.640 it to a friend. 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.959 Half the people, probably less than half, would say they 0:13:58.160 --> 0:13:59.480 would send it back. 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:01.800 With the people that keep it, do they have a 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:02.640 rationale for that? 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:05.600 Yeah, it was a company's mistake, not mine. I didn't 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:08.599 ask for it, so I'm going to keep it. So 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.559 what the problem is. I think we can justify these little, 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:17.480 small ethical lapses, and that just that just becomes bigger 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:19.640 and bigger when you get into corporation and you see 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:23.040 that you have access to one hundred, one hundred million, 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:25.840 two million, whatever the amount of zeros you want to 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:28.680 put on the end of that number, And with just 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.800 a easy click of a pin, you can make a 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.840 fraudulent transaction and you can justify it, especially if the 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:36.840 end result is good news for your company. 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:40.720 Makes it easy, It makes it easy to rationalize why 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:41.240 you should do it. 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:49.880 Could you're doing? 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:52.640 You a favorite this point because it's I saw the 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:54.960 documentary and if people don't know this story, because it 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:57.200 is one of the mind blower o Wells of all time. 0:14:57.800 --> 0:14:59.920 Is the greed to Clunwell's story because of who she is, 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.280 her background, and what she was able to do and 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:06.840 the guts that she to do this to perpetrate this crime, 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:07.400 it's amazing. 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.800 Yeah, So Rita Crunwell, So I did a documentary came 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:14.960 out in twenty seventeen, still lives in the world today 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:19.720 because it's so crazy. So Rita Crunwell was the city comptroller, 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:24.600 the finance person in this small town called Dixon, Illinois. Dixon, 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.280 Illinois has about sixteen thousand people, So we're talking about 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:31.000 small town USA. And what she was able to do 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:35.080 over a twenty year period was embezzle about fifty three 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:38.400 point seven million dollars in plain sight. 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:40.000 So she. 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:43.160 Lived out in the open. 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:48.360 She owned over four hundred quarter horses and lived this 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.480 lavish life style, really this double life. So by day 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:54.680 she was this controller, a government employee, and by night 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:58.560 she was this horsewoman, you know, in firs and going 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:02.200 to horse competitions all around the country. She won about 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:04.880 fifty two world championships in the quarterhorse division. Don't know 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.280 if anybody has a quarter horse out there, but if 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:10.480 you do, then you know who Rita is. And how 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:14.840 she got discovered was by the city clerk who reported 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.720 to her and noticed that there were these unusual transactions 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:22.280 coming out of an account that Kathy Swanson wasn't aware of, 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:22.760 and she was. 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:24.240 Like, huh, this looks odd. 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:26.160 I don't know what to do with this, so I'm 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:29.440 just going to tell my mayor about that. She reported 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:34.320 to the mayor Burke, and they launched an investigation to 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:37.240 get their own little personal investigation, and then contacted the FBI, 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:41.240 and the rest is history. Rita was sentenced to nineteen 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:45.440 years and seven months in federal prison and during COVID 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:49.640 she got released early. The end of the story of 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:52.560 probably from Rita's perspective, it does well. 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.200 We should also mention Rita did not have a college education. 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:57.680 She was like an assistant when she started. 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.560 She graduated from high school, started working for the city 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:02.920 and a princess type program. 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:06.359 And you know, she didn't have a top MBA. She 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:07.639 didn't work on Wall Street. 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:08.359 She just worked. 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.240 You know, she learned the system and knew the system 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:12.920 so well. 0:17:13.119 --> 0:17:16.159 So yeah, she was able to take money just so 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:19.520 not only was she scamming the city, but how did 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:22.480 she how did she account for it in her tax returns? 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:23.680 Did she have two sets of books? 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:27.080 Well, something that one of the reasons why I always 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.160 say everybody needs to take an accounting class is something 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:32.360 that we talk about, like the first day in accounting 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:36.879 is the accounting equation assets equals liabilities plus stockode ex equity. 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:41.560 The interesting thing to your question is because financial statements 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:45.040 have to balance. She was taking money out, so she 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:48.720 had to put fraudulent transactions in to make those financial 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:53.080 statements balance. So people were looking at lies when they 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.080 were looking at the financial statements overall, if they knew 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:59.480 what they were looking at. So this is why auditors 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:02.040 tend to get in trouble because the auditors come in 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:05.720 and they say, okay, the financial statements reflect accurately. 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.800 What management or the leaders of an organization are saying. 0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:12.439 And so auditors get in trouble when fraud happens because 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:14.960 everyone says, well, why did you sign off that these 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:18.280 financial statements were okay? So how Rita was able to 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:21.919 get away with it is still shocking because there were 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:25.800 so many people that looked at the financial statements. So 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:30.520 how she was able to execute the fraud was really simple. 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.920 She just moved money from one account to the next. 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:34.480 That's it. 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:38.399 And because most people don't like talking about money, they 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:41.280 don't care about accounting, when you find a person that 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:43.359 is really good at managing the books, you sort of 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:44.920 let them be, leave them alone, You don't ask a 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:47.680 lot of questions. And so that's who Rita was, so 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:49.359 it made it easy for her to steal the money. 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:52.200 The other thing though, that blows me away about this 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.000 was the quarter horses, et cetera, her other life, but 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:00.520 this town did not have that big an account. She 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:05.000 took fifty three million dollars from a municipality that only 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:08.000 made how much money on a monthly weekly. 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:10.520