Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Saber production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 2: I'm Anniris and I'm Lauren vogel Baum, and today we
Speaker 2: have an episode for you about Tarragon, Yes.
Speaker 1: Which is an episode I fondly referred to as etymology Headache.
Speaker 1: Was there any particular reason this was on your mind? Lauren?
Speaker 2: There are a whole list of herbs and spices that
Speaker 2: I've got in our ideas sheet and this was one
Speaker 2: of them, and it's kind of it's kind of a nice,
Speaker 2: bright summary sort of herb.
Speaker 1: So yeah, Yeah, I have to say in the initial
Speaker 1: search results when I saw this, what I didn't know
Speaker 1: at the time would be Etymology Headache. It does have
Speaker 1: a lot of very fun names. I was very intrigued.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and dragon shows up in a lot of the names,
Speaker 2: so that's always fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a pretty good hook. I mean, I know,
Speaker 1: I know I've had tarragon before, but I can't like
Speaker 1: recall it very specifically. But in one of the articles
Speaker 1: that I use in researching this, they were talking about
Speaker 1: how French cuisine, or at least modern French cuisine in
Speaker 1: New York specifically, was moving away from Tarragon, which had
Speaker 1: been so closely associated with it for so long, and
Speaker 1: they were listing all these restaurants that, you know, don't
Speaker 1: use tarragon anymore. No, but they were like, but there
Speaker 1: is one holdout the Cuckoo. I've been there, and I
Speaker 1: was just there in December, and I got to meet
Speaker 1: up with the editor of the stuff when I never
Speaker 1: told you book. Gave a van wherever you'd get your
Speaker 1: books because we never met person to person, and she
Speaker 1: suggested this restaurant and I happen to get the one
Speaker 1: dish that had tarragon in it, the sweetbreads with tarragon.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, it was so good. Oh that
Speaker 1: sounds lovely. Yeah, but it made me very happy that
Speaker 1: I saw that the restaurant name. I had to look
Speaker 1: at the menu immediately. I yes, that is what I got.
Speaker 2: Oh delightful. Yeah. I actually don't like tarragon as much
Speaker 2: as I think I'm going to like. Every time I
Speaker 2: get some, I'm like, ah, it's like I don't dislike it.
Speaker 2: I'm always just kind of like, oh, right, it's sort
Speaker 2: of annest flavored. I feel like I always think I'm
Speaker 2: going to like it more because part of my brain
Speaker 2: still thinks it's fancy.
Speaker 1: Yes, due to.
Speaker 2: It's like heavy inclusion in things like the Silver Palette cookbook,
Speaker 2: which we're going to talk about later. So here we are.
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, we're speaking of for past episodes. You can
Speaker 1: see our episode on hawk cuisine. Mm, that was a
Speaker 1: whole other side quest that I could not go down.
Speaker 1: I did not have the time. No this episode. No
Speaker 1: other herbs that we've done, licorice, peppercorns.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's there's some overlap in there, maybe absinthe. Yeah, yes, so.
Speaker 1: That is quite the list of topics. Best to our question. Tarragon,
Speaker 1: what is it?
Speaker 2: Well, Tarragon is an herb with tender, narrow green leaves
Speaker 2: that tastes of annis or or like licorice or fennel,
Speaker 2: maybe kind of bittersweet, a little herbal medicinal, kind of
Speaker 2: tangy and peppery. It's used fresh or dried, and all
Speaker 2: kinds of savory dishes like roasts or stews, particularly with chicken,
Speaker 2: our fish, or in like egg or vegetable dishes, maybe
Speaker 2: chopped fine, in fresh salads or in various sauces and dressings.
Speaker 2: It's often used alongside other herbs for like like like
Speaker 2: multi dimensional herbal properties. It can also be used in
Speaker 2: sweet dishes and drinks to add a little bit of spice,
Speaker 2: perhaps especially alongside fruity flavors. It's sort of cool and
Speaker 2: pike in both at the same time. It's the herbal
Speaker 2: equivalent of like stepping from a warm sunny day into
Speaker 2: a cool room, like like having that residual heat on
Speaker 2: your skin and getting that that that cool woosh mmmm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a lovely feeling, especially right now it's
Speaker 1: so so hot outside.
Speaker 2: So I moved away from Florida anyway. Botanical name Artemisia
Speaker 2: dragon coolest Dracunculus. Sure, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: Tarragon is a sort of shrubby scre ruby herbaceous plant
Speaker 2: in the sunflower family astorossier. It's related to stuff like
Speaker 2: mugwart and wormwood. It grows lots of soft, like non
Speaker 2: woody stems from these underground rhizomes. The plant's true roots
Speaker 2: grow into the ground off of those rhizomes. Stems go up,
Speaker 2: roots go down. Yeah. The stems can reach about three
Speaker 2: feet or a meter in height. The leaves are narrow
Speaker 2: and sort of blade like, maybe an inch or two long,
Speaker 2: like three to six centimeters, and they're this like soft
Speaker 2: to glossy bluish green in color. It does grow wild,
Speaker 2: but the wild varieties don't often have a good flavor.
Speaker 2: A couple of different cultivars developed for their flavor are
Speaker 2: the ones that you're going to encounter for culinary use.
Speaker 2: Those two main varieties are French and Russian terragon. French
Speaker 2: is more anisey, a little sweeter, and more finicky to
Speaker 2: grow like. It will not tolerate frost. Russian is more
Speaker 2: mild and bitter, but more hardy. Both are d route resistant,
Speaker 2: which is cool. What's known as Mexican tarragon is from
Speaker 2: a different genus altogether, but apparently tastes really similar to
Speaker 2: French tarragon, but not really what we're talking about today.
Speaker 2: In French and Russian tarragon and wild tarragon, the tops
Speaker 2: of the stems will grow these clusters of small white
Speaker 2: to yellow to green flowers that may develop seeds, but
Speaker 2: not all cultivars do, and in any case, the plant
Speaker 2: does propagate more readily from those rhizomes, which will spread
Speaker 2: horizontally under the surface of the ground. The flowers are edible, too,
Speaker 2: but we're mostly interested in the leaves. You can harvest
Speaker 2: whole stems or just strip the leaves. In the supermarket,
Speaker 2: you'll usually find packs of whole stems. You can toss
Speaker 2: those whole into soups or stews to be taken out
Speaker 2: at the end of cooking, or you can strip the
Speaker 2: leaves and use those whole or chopped. Cooking tarragon for
Speaker 2: too long can turn it bitter, so you might want
Speaker 2: to add it towards the end of cooking, or use
Speaker 2: it in dishes that don't have a long cooking time
Speaker 2: to begin with, like eggs or fish or cream sauces.
Speaker 2: And it does lose flavor when it's dried, so it's
Speaker 2: best to use fresh or frozen when you can. And yeah,
Speaker 2: tarragon is either native or successfully introduced to basically the
Speaker 2: entire Northern hemisphere, so it plays roles in a lot
Speaker 2: of different cuisines. France, where it is not native, really
Speaker 2: picked it up during Elt cuisine, and so it is
Speaker 2: a key ingredient in modern classics like Breneise sauce, which
Speaker 2: is butter and eggyulk with vinegar, shallatte and tarragon, and
Speaker 2: the chopped herb blend Fiends herb, which is parsley, chives,
Speaker 2: sherville and tarragon. Tarragon is sometimes called referred to in
Speaker 2: French as the King of Herbs. It's also really popular
Speaker 2: as an ingredient in flavored vinegars and mustards and cheeses.
Speaker 2: And I did see a lot of suggestions for using
Speaker 2: tarragon in pasta and potato salads and to just generally
Speaker 2: brighten up kind of savory ingredients like mushrooms or be
Speaker 2: sor asparagus. Yeah, it is furthermore processed into oil powder
Speaker 2: and paste for use in the processed food and beverage industry.
Speaker 2: There's a popular, popular question mark soft drink around like
Speaker 2: Central Asia and former Soviet Union areas called Tarkuna or tarkun,
Speaker 2: which is flavored with it's soda flavored with tarragon, and
Speaker 2: it's colored like bright green, bright green soda tarragon flavored.
Speaker 2: And those words that I probably just mispronounced, I did
Speaker 2: look them up but couldn't find anything really reliable. Those
Speaker 2: are the Georgian and Russian words for tarragon, respectively. So
Speaker 2: also one of several etymological notes I'm going to be
Speaker 2: making here today. The flavor and or fragrance compound estragoal
Speaker 2: was named for the French word for tarragon, So that
Speaker 2: shows up in perfumes and stuff a lot and other
Speaker 2: personal care products.
Speaker 1: Oh, etymology, you really came for us in this one.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, this one was one of those cases of
Speaker 2: those like like ancient peoples were not thinking about modern
Speaker 2: podcasters at all.
Speaker 1: How could they? But I have to say I did
Speaker 1: appreciate how I've found so many instances of people arguing
Speaker 1: about it in like medieval times, and I.
Speaker 2: Was like, yes, yes, thank you.
Speaker 1: Well what about the nutrition.
Speaker 2: You're not really consuming enough to make a difference. But
Speaker 2: tarragon does contain a lot of micronutrients that can help
Speaker 2: your body do stuff, and it has been used in
Speaker 2: various traditional medicines for a long time and is indeed
Speaker 2: under investigation for various properties like antibacterial and anti fungal
Speaker 2: effects in food preservation and for extracts in various medicines.
Speaker 2: But you know saber motto, before you eat medicinal quantities
Speaker 2: of anything should check with a doctor or other medical
Speaker 2: professional who is not us, because bodies are complicated. Nutrition
Speaker 2: is complicated.
Speaker 1: There you go, our research is needed. Well, we don't
Speaker 1: really have numbers for you, but we have a fun
Speaker 1: on back to fun quote.
Speaker 2: I was looking up I was looking up like like
Speaker 2: global production numbers for tarragon and like global market value,
Speaker 2: and the numbers that I saw were so wildly different
Speaker 2: in every source that I was like, this is not
Speaker 2: this is not an actual number. I'm not going to
Speaker 2: try to report this. But cultural note, James Beard is
Speaker 2: quoted as having said, I believe that if I ever
Speaker 2: had to practice cannibalism, I might manage if there were
Speaker 2: enough tarragon around.
Speaker 1: It's such a fun quote because I feel like it
Speaker 1: has a couple of interpretations. One is that you like
Speaker 1: tarragon enough. One is that flag the flavor of tarragon
Speaker 1: is enough to distract you mm hmmm. And the other
Speaker 1: is like I can eat the tarra god. So I
Speaker 1: guess how turned to my fellow human.
Speaker 2: I think it's some of those first too. But but
Speaker 2: I like that, Yeah, I like that you're thinking about it.
Speaker 1: I think it's that he appreciated it so much.
Speaker 2: But I'm just saying, if this were a Fay deal,
Speaker 2: that would be real shaky ground.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, yeah, indeed, speaking of shaky ground, we got
Speaker 1: to get into some of this etymology mess.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we we do, we do, and we are we
Speaker 2: we are. But first We are going to take a
Speaker 2: quick break for a word from our sponsors, and we're back.
Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. Okay. So, historians suspect
Speaker 1: that tarragon, specifically wild Russian tarragon, originated in Central and
Speaker 1: Western Asia. French tarragon propagated with roots or cuttings, came
Speaker 1: later a few centuries ago. It doesn't appear in any
Speaker 1: European botanical literature until the fifteen hundred. So the general
Speaker 1: consensus is that it's a newer herb and the scheme
Speaker 1: of things, at least to Europe. That being said, new
Speaker 1: historical discoveries happen all the time, and it could be
Speaker 1: one of those things where historical descriptions and naming conventions
Speaker 1: mix it up with something else. There are definitely multiple
Speaker 1: instances in medieval text where authors complain about mistranslations leading
Speaker 1: to mix ups with other herbs when it comes to tarragon.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about a few of them. It's
Speaker 1: almost comical how many names it has gone by.
Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, yep, yep. But okay, it does seem that
Speaker 2: tarragon started out in like Mongolia and Siberia and slowly
Speaker 2: spread out from there through seed dispersal and human movement,
Speaker 2: and somewhere along the line people selected for what we
Speaker 2: now call the French variety, which yes, is a sterile variety.
Speaker 2: Does not propagate from seeds. It has to be propagated
Speaker 2: from rhizome cuttings. But that happened a long time before
Speaker 2: it hit France. Probably, Tarragon was written up in an
Speaker 2: Arab botanical text in the twelve hundreds as a seasoning
Speaker 2: for vegetables and also a sleep aid.
Speaker 1: Yes, and in some Middle Eastern countries, tarragon has a
Speaker 1: centuries long culinary history, winding up in several dishes that
Speaker 1: are still around today. It was also used.
Speaker 2: In traditional medicines in Central Asia.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Tiragon likely arrived in Europe towards the end of
Speaker 1: the Middle Ages via Arab traders, or perhaps through the
Speaker 1: Mongol invasion of Europe in the twelve hundreds.
Speaker 2: Or possibly even earlier around the eight hundreds with the
Speaker 2: Arab movement into parts of what's now Italy, or all
Speaker 2: three of these things.
Speaker 1: We don't know. No one seems to know, no one
Speaker 1: is sure, no one is sure, all right, So in
Speaker 1: the early days it was used medicinally in a wide
Speaker 1: range of ways. In Asia, the Middle East, and Europe,
Speaker 1: perhaps specifically when it came to gastro intestinal distress, but
Speaker 1: really in a huge range of ways. And speaking of
Speaker 1: medicinal applications, the first known European mention of tarragon is
Speaker 1: from a fifteen thirty six book about medicinal plants by
Speaker 1: Jean Rouelle. Ruelle was a French physician, botanist and scholar,
Speaker 1: and the book was published first in Paris. The discussion
Speaker 1: of Tarragon is brief. The author discusses the roots and
Speaker 1: translations and mistranslations of the name of the Arab, how
Speaker 1: it grows, how it's used, and how it tastes. However,
Speaker 1: some sources claim that Tarragon was mentioned farlier, even by
Speaker 1: our old pal Plenty and Dioscurides. On top of that,
Speaker 1: Ruel was known for translating the work of Dioskerites, which
Speaker 1: did not mention Tarragon. But then Ruell wrote an original
Speaker 1: work based on this translation of Diaskerites and added his
Speaker 1: own bit about Tarragon. So I think some people attribute
Speaker 1: the mention of Tarragon to Diascrites, Okay, at least in
Speaker 1: my mind, that's part of the issue. And I same
Speaker 1: with Plenty. I think the same thing happened, But there
Speaker 1: is a lot of historical confusion around the name of
Speaker 1: tarragon what it actually referred to when people were using it.
Speaker 1: Most sources I read posit that Plenty, Diascurrites and the
Speaker 1: like were referring to a different species arab Dragcunculus, which
Speaker 1: is not I looked it up in is not the
Speaker 1: same thing, and is also that scientific name is not
Speaker 1: even used anymore from what I can tell.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and aram is either way a totally different genus.
Speaker 2: It's separate plant, separate plants, but also called dracunculus.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, And in fact, Plenty is often credited with
Speaker 1: giving terragon or not Terragon, as the case might be,
Speaker 1: its name and the first century CE because carrying it
Speaker 1: on your person, according to him, provided protection from snake bites.
Speaker 2: Okay, so yes, the etymology here is whibbley wobbly, because
Speaker 2: we're not sure exactly what plant different people were referring to.
Speaker 2: But it has been suggested that the name terragon roots
Speaker 2: from this Greek word for dragon dragon, and that the
Speaker 2: plant was called that because the rhizomes have a kind
Speaker 2: of like knobby snakelike sort of appearance. Or maybe that
Speaker 2: the leaves look like serpents tongues. I've read both, so
Speaker 2: like right, like you get dracon and that goes to
Speaker 2: an arab tarkon and then terragon.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Some have suggested that this association with serpents is why
Speaker 2: the plant was thought to have these anti snake medicinal
Speaker 2: properties of one kind or another. While we're here, the
Speaker 2: genus name Artemisia comes from the association of the goddess
Speaker 2: Artemis with some dang plant in like the mugwort, wormwood,
Speaker 2: tarragon family or not or a different plant.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: Again, there's like a bunch of historical confusion here.
Speaker 1: Yes, but all very interesting and great name landed on
Speaker 1: a great name.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, that's that's like metal. That's like
Speaker 2: really cool, very cool.
Speaker 1: Okay. So after this we kind of get a little
Speaker 1: bit of a cascade of other medicinal plant books sort
Speaker 1: of arguing about this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like they didn't have Blue Sky, so they had
Speaker 2: to do it through publication.
Speaker 1: And that they did so. A fifteen seventy eight text
Speaker 1: first published in fifteen fifty four but later updated, written
Speaker 1: by Rimbert du Dunn's, a Belgian botanist and physician tauted
Speaker 1: the benefits of tarragon, especially when it came to stomach
Speaker 1: ailments and feminist bites. This work was significant when it
Speaker 1: comes to tarragon because it was the first book in
Speaker 1: this medico botanical space to give tarragon an entire entry
Speaker 1: under the name dragon, complete with illustration. It was listed
Speaker 1: amongst other edible plants that have a sort of bright,
Speaker 1: spicy flavor with when fresh, so like a rocket or rugula,
Speaker 1: things like that. Do Dunes recommended it for salads. He
Speaker 1: also mentions that it wasn't common outside of France, apart
Speaker 1: from a few cities in Belgium where the French had
Speaker 1: introduced Then in fifteen fifty eight, Italian physician Pietro Andreya
Speaker 1: Mattioli described tarragon as having an extremely acrid taste. He
Speaker 1: wrote briefly about the belief some held that tarragon didn't
Speaker 1: grow naturally but instead required farmers to place linen seeds
Speaker 1: and hollowed out onions or something like an onion and
Speaker 1: bury them. And he ran his own experiment and it
Speaker 1: didn't work. Dismissed the whole thing. He was like, this
Speaker 1: is just not true.
Speaker 2: That's accurate. It's not true that that's what you have
Speaker 2: to do to grow terragon. But again, probably the type
Speaker 2: of tarragon that they were growing even at this point
Speaker 2: was French tarragon, which is propagated through the rhizome. So yes, yes,
Speaker 2: he was onto something with the seeds not being plantable, yeah,
Speaker 2: step by step, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: Which speaking of then, John Gerard published in fifteen ninety
Speaker 1: seven his work The Herbal Out of London, including a
Speaker 1: translation of Doe Dune's writings about tarragon along with his
Speaker 1: own notes around medicinal properties and the name in other languages.
Speaker 1: He also describes how in Greek myth, the fisherman Glaucus
Speaker 1: became immortal after eating tarragon. However, it seems he mistranslated
Speaker 1: a word for tarragon, so there's like, there's a plant
Speaker 1: you eat and it gives you this immortality, and he
Speaker 1: thought it was tarragon, but I think the word he
Speaker 1: mistranslated was actually a descriptor for the plant, not actually
Speaker 1: the plant.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So anyway, that kind of got dismissed, and I believe
Speaker 1: Doe Dunes came out with another edition of his book
Speaker 1: and was like, I don't know where your sources are
Speaker 1: but that's not correct. It really was a whole back
Speaker 1: and forth. There were a couple more after this, but
Speaker 1: then it kind of settled down for a minute. English
Speaker 1: gardens were growing at Tarragon by the sixteenth century. Europeans
Speaker 1: brought tarragon over with them to the America's beginning in
Speaker 1: the sixteen hundreds, but it seemed to remain pretty niche
Speaker 1: at first, at least in the US.
Speaker 2: But wild tarragon did spread in North America, or was
Speaker 2: possibly already here. A few ethnobotanies list tarragon as a
Speaker 2: traditional medicine for peoples like the Chippewa and the Chequetnic.
Speaker 1: So yes, ooh and then okay. By the eighteenth and
Speaker 1: nineteenth century, Europe had generally embraced tarragon as a spice,
Speaker 1: but none more so than France. They added it to
Speaker 1: a whole variety of things, including biernet sauce, a devoration
Speaker 1: of the French mother sauce holland Dais, which, by the way,
Speaker 1: we're just gonna have to do a whole episode on
Speaker 1: these sauces.
Speaker 2: On the sauce as we are. Yeah, I've been putting
Speaker 2: that off because of all of the heck in French
Speaker 2: that I am going to mispronounce.
Speaker 1: That is fair. That is fair. U. Well, the first
Speaker 1: recipe for beernais appeared in eighteen thirty six, or that's
Speaker 1: the general consensus. Future episode. Yeah, august Escoffier's landmark nineteen
Speaker 1: oh three work Leaguide Colinaire mentioned to Tarragon over sixty times.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 1: He was also the first to define France's fiene herbs
Speaker 1: in nineteen oh three, which is a seasoning of equal
Speaker 1: parts Parsley, Chives, Sherville and Tarragon. So yeah, it was
Speaker 1: a big part of that, like new classic French cuisine,
Speaker 1: Hawk cuisine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, huge, it was everywhere in there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but that's future as will deal with that
Speaker 1: because I tried to fit it all into this episode
Speaker 1: and I was like, no, we can do all episode
Speaker 1: just on Tarra God and Friends.
Speaker 2: Yeah, during that specific time period. Yes. Meanwhile, that Tarragon
Speaker 2: soda pop that I mentioned was invented in eighteen eighty
Speaker 2: seven by this Georgian pharmacist by the name of U.
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry if I mess this up a metrofun Leginze,
Speaker 2: I think I'm not sure. I'm so sorry. Yeah, But
Speaker 2: he was working with a bunch of different herbs and
Speaker 2: fruits and spices to make syrups for soft drinks. The
Speaker 2: tarragon one did get popular throughout the USSR in the
Speaker 2: nineteen eighties when, which is when it saw mass production
Speaker 2: and is still available and is always just absolutely emerald.
Speaker 1: Green listeners right in. Yeah, yeah, okay, stepfing back a bit.
Speaker 1: After returning to the US from Europe, famous Francophile Thomas Jefferson,
Speaker 1: that guy ran into trouble getting his hands on tarragon,
Speaker 1: which had been readily available while he was in France,
Speaker 1: and Jefferson had been particularly taken with tarragon mustard, so
Speaker 1: he really wanted to make this. He went on this
Speaker 1: whole quest to get seeds to grow his own tarragon,
Speaker 1: but he ran into dead ends at every turn. And yeah,
Speaker 1: part of the problem was that tarragon grown for culinary
Speaker 1: purposes was the French variety propagated using root division or cutting.
Speaker 1: So yeah, he just wasn't having it. Wasn't going to work. Yeah,
Speaker 1: wasn't going to work. So he sent this message, this
Speaker 1: really lamenting message about his tarragon loves to horticulturists Bernard
Speaker 1: McMahon in eighteen o six and McMahon sent him some
Speaker 1: roots to grow his own. I think a month later
Speaker 1: was like here You're.
Speaker 2: Like, here you go, bud.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just good luck. But still it was not smooth sailing.
Speaker 1: Over several years in the early eighteen hundreds, Jefferson struggled
Speaker 1: to cultivate tarragon at Monticello, where he lived. Based on
Speaker 1: the sources I read, he never really succeeded, but he
Speaker 1: did turn more people onto tarragon in the United States.
Speaker 2: It's honestly, probably too wet around Monticello.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2: Wants it to be a little bit drier. But or
Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe it was karma for him being
Speaker 2: a terrible heck in person.
Speaker 1: There could be any number of things. Yeah, he also
Speaker 1: moved it a lot. I think he was I couldn't tell,
Speaker 1: but it sounded like he was pretty impatient. He really
Speaker 1: wanted this mustard, which I'm sure wasn't helping with the crow. Yeah. Yes,
Speaker 1: But in either gate, whatever happens. Starting in the eighteen hundreds,
Speaker 1: recipes for things like tarragon vinegar started appearing in American cookbooks,
Speaker 1: and then in the mid nineteen hundreds, Julia Child helped
Speaker 1: popularize tarragon and French dishes and spice mixes that called
Speaker 1: for it for mainstream American audiences. And then something I
Speaker 1: never heard of, but it sounds like you had Lauren.
Speaker 1: The team behind the Silver Palette carry out shop in
Speaker 1: New York City as Shila Lukens and Julie Russo, included
Speaker 1: several recipes that called for tarragon, and their two cookbooks,
Speaker 1: The Silver Palette and The New Basics. These books came
Speaker 1: out in the nineteen eighties and they were incredibly popular.
Speaker 1: They wove together American in international cuisines, and they created
Speaker 1: some new takes on old classics. When it came to tarragon,
Speaker 1: a lot of Americans did have this sort of long
Speaker 1: associated thing where they always thought of it as this
Speaker 1: is for francy French dishes, that's where it belongs. I
Speaker 1: can't make those, But these cookbooks featured recipes in other
Speaker 1: ways using it in other ways, like in tarragon pea
Speaker 1: soup and teargn chicken salad, and so the addition of
Speaker 1: tarragon was accessible, but it made many feel like the
Speaker 1: resulting dish was fancier, which I think is what you
Speaker 1: were talking about. The top one.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, yeah, well, we'll definitely have to do a
Speaker 2: whole episode about the whole silver palette thing. These were
Speaker 2: two cookbooks that I grew up with my parents using
Speaker 2: extensively at home. And also because because my dad was
Speaker 2: a professional cook or chef for you know, whatever, whatever
Speaker 2: you want to call someone who smokes too many cigarettes
Speaker 2: outside of kitchens, he took a lot of inspiration from
Speaker 2: that kind of cooking.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, I would love to come back to it.
Speaker 1: Because I was I was looking just out of curiosity
Speaker 1: tarragon dishes available near me, and so many of them
Speaker 1: were things that were in this cookbook. I was just
Speaker 1: kind of cross matching, so it had quickly out of impacts.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really emblematic of those books are really emblematic
Speaker 2: of the kind of nineteen eighties wave of novelle cuisine
Speaker 2: that was talking about. Yeah, just like, get good ingredients,
Speaker 2: don't mess them up, try to eat nice fresh things.
Speaker 1: Interesting. Yeah, yes, another interesting thing. In two thousand and one,
Speaker 1: the publication su Herb had a feature specifically highlighting tarragon
Speaker 1: titled only Elegance. I tried so hard to track this
Speaker 1: down so I could read it, and I could only
Speaker 1: find like a small shot oh, desperate to read it.
Speaker 1: But a lot of the newer stuff I've read made
Speaker 1: it sound like Tarragon is kind of old fashioned and stuffy. Now,
Speaker 1: like the thing that I was talking about with the
Speaker 1: restaurant I went to the Cuckoo where they're like, that's
Speaker 1: the only restaurant that uses it. They were saying it
Speaker 1: was at this high and now yeah you can't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess. I guess it probably especially for right
Speaker 2: for like a certain caliber of restaurant that has gotten
Speaker 2: burnt out on doing like classical cuisine type dishes. They're like, no,
Speaker 2: no more terragone. Man, I'm sick of Tarragon. We did enough,
Speaker 2: Terragon done. We're done there, Let's move on to literally
Speaker 2: anything else.
Speaker 1: But it's nice. It's nice.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think that, you know, like like
Speaker 2: something like fennel, you know, it's just gonna come in
Speaker 2: waves of popularity where like suddenly it's going to be
Speaker 2: the it's spice for everything, the herb for everything, and
Speaker 2: but then people are gonna be like, no, we're sick
Speaker 2: of that. Now.
Speaker 1: I agree. I agree because I feel like I've seen it,
Speaker 1: like maybe even in cocktails and things. So I thought
Speaker 1: it was fancy in that way, but maybe it's maybe
Speaker 1: it's more niche right now, but it'll come back and
Speaker 1: have another big moment. But yeah, listeners, let us know
Speaker 1: if there are ways that you like to use it,
Speaker 1: or dishes that you love that have tarragon in them.
Speaker 1: We would love to hear from you. But I think
Speaker 1: that's what we have to say about tarragn for now.
Speaker 2: It is. We do have some listener mail for you already, though,
Speaker 2: and we are going to get into that as soon
Speaker 2: as we get back from one more quick break for
Speaker 2: a word from our sponsors.
Speaker 1: And we're back. Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you. Now
Speaker 1: we're back with name stepping inside cool room after being outside.
Speaker 1: Hmmmmmm okay. Janet sent an email with the subject line
Speaker 1: speaking of desecrated coconut that reads, I was so excited
Speaker 1: when I heard my last letter read aloud. You really
Speaker 1: brought both the whimsy and horror of Lamington Pizza to life.
Speaker 1: For the listeners, please find attached pictures of my bond
Speaker 1: Me inspired Schmorgas tort extravaganza witcher cake, so named for
Speaker 1: reasons that I promise made since during lockdown, much like
Speaker 1: the tsunami of Witcher fanfic, also written in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: It is made only using ingredients mentioned are shown by
Speaker 1: Joey Batty and his Chaos Grimlin masterpiece of a YouTube
Speaker 1: video Joey's Great Witcher Bakeoff. Therefore, my bond me Schmorgas
Speaker 1: Torte is made by spreading pet over gluten free non
Speaker 1: or lebonese bread and layering with a salad of red
Speaker 1: wine and sugar pickled carrots, avocado, cucumber, baby spinach, and
Speaker 1: fresh basil, then dressed with lime juice, chili flakes, and
Speaker 1: more red wine vinegar, then loaded with coconut and pepper
Speaker 1: fried beef and omelet as proteins. The torte is then
Speaker 1: liberally frosted with strained Greek yogurt and lime juice around
Speaker 1: the sides, and deep fried lasagna sheets are stuck on
Speaker 1: Decoratively to this frosting optional extra top with slices of
Speaker 1: avocado arranged into a wolf's head symbol. It was truly delicious,
Speaker 1: and I regret that I have yet to make it again.
Speaker 1: I hope you've enjoyed the second foray into foods with
Speaker 1: threatening auras. If so, please mention a favorite food each
Speaker 1: and I'll try to create a combined savory treat for you.
Speaker 1: Oh oh wow, I'm a little nervous. Yeah, you might
Speaker 1: have to ponder.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna take a minute
Speaker 2: to think about that one. But in the meanwhile, a
Speaker 2: the wolf's head is truly gorgeous, like really a sculptural
Speaker 2: work of avocado art.
Speaker 1: It really is.
Speaker 2: And and b uh, this sounds great. This sounds like
Speaker 2: it shouldn't be great. But I totally believe you that
Speaker 2: it was delicious.
Speaker 1: I believe it too. I believe it too. I did
Speaker 1: struggle reading through the description just now. There were a
Speaker 1: couple of retakes, yeah, because it kept going.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. When she when she got to
Speaker 2: the deep fried lasagna sheets, like we both just cracked up.
Speaker 1: We were like, and then what, I love it. It's fantastic.
Speaker 1: It just kept going and going and going.
Speaker 2: Indeed, what chaos. I love it.
Speaker 1: It does sound absolutely chaotic, and you know we love
Speaker 1: nerd nerd based dishows.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, experiments, oh yeah, and fan fix yeah yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1: So yes, And if anybody's interested, Janet did send links
Speaker 1: to videos of making this. So yeah, it sounds like
Speaker 1: truly delicious chaos that is nerd themed and we're on board.
Speaker 2: We're on board, so on board. But yeah, yeah, we'll
Speaker 2: get back to you and we are going to choose wisely.
Speaker 2: But who knows where where youre chaos will take us.
Speaker 1: I guess I can't wait.
Speaker 2: Oh okay uh. Jamie wrote, so excited that you did
Speaker 2: an episode about taiyaki. Our family went to Japan in
Speaker 2: March of this year. My husband loves taiyaki and was
Speaker 2: so excited to eat it while we were there. Luckily,
Speaker 2: there was a taiyaki shop across the street from one
Speaker 2: of our hotel and we found snoopy shaped taiyaki at
Speaker 2: the Nishiki market in Kyoto. He especially loves the red
Speaker 2: bean paste ones. Sometimes in the frozen section at Costco
Speaker 2: they will have little fish shaped taiyaki that you can
Speaker 2: warm up in the air fryer, which is a nice
Speaker 2: way to have them here in the States. We also
Speaker 2: had ten yen bread, which is taiyaki adjacent. We bought
Speaker 2: two of those, one cheese and one chocolate. Relating to
Speaker 2: another recent episode, we were also very excited to see
Speaker 2: Krispy Kreme in the train stations They had all sorts
Speaker 2: of different neat flavors that you don't typically see here
Speaker 2: in the States. I could go on and on about Japan,
Speaker 2: but suffice it to say it was amazing and we
Speaker 2: are planning on going back again at some point paying
Speaker 2: the pet tax. I have attached a picture of our
Speaker 2: fourteen year old docs Rusty and are new to us
Speaker 2: nine year old beagle Red. We had to say goodbye
Speaker 2: to our seventeen year old beagle Rowdy in February, and
Speaker 2: his brother Rusty was devastated, so we rescued Red to
Speaker 2: be his emotional support dot and Red is fitting in
Speaker 2: great and is helping fill the beagle sized hole in
Speaker 2: our hearts. Oh my goodness, Okay, so it's so attached. Yes,
Speaker 2: there are photos of the snoopy, the snoopy head, Taiyaki,
Speaker 2: the cheese filled pastry mentioned and then oh those Krispy
Speaker 2: Kreme look gorgeous. Oh, and the doggoes are so cute.
Speaker 2: Those are real good dogs. They're all very relaxed as beagles. Uh,
Speaker 2: and docsins tend to be.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: I mean at a point like that, this is when
Speaker 2: they have like borked all of their borks out and
Speaker 2: they are recharging the bork.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's so adorable.
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, what buddies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much. Preparing the checks, Oh, I
Speaker 1: appreciate it, and sending pictures and this all sounds. I
Speaker 1: love the wide array of taiyaki yeah, uh huh, and
Speaker 1: all these different pastries people are writing in about, so
Speaker 1: please keep that coming.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, feel free to just inundate. It's with as
Speaker 2: much details as you would like to give. You'd never
Speaker 2: have to worry about going on and on like that
Speaker 2: is what we are absolutely into. And so sorry for
Speaker 2: your for your recent pet loss. It's so yes, it's
Speaker 2: their Their time is so brief, but so so worthwhile.
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely well, Thank you to both of these listeners
Speaker 1: to writing in. If you would like to try to us,
Speaker 1: you can or emails hello at saberpod dot com.
Speaker 2: We're also on social media. You can find us on
Speaker 2: Blue Sky and Instagram at saber pod. That's the name
Speaker 2: of our show. Holy heck, we do hope to hear
Speaker 2: from you. Savor is a production of iHeartRadio. Four more
Speaker 2: podcasts from iHeartRadio. You can visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Thanks as
Speaker 2: always to our super producers Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard.
Speaker 2: Thanks to you for listening, and we hope that lots
Speaker 2: more good things are coming your way.