Speaker 1: On the dol cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women in them? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
Speaker 1: Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing
Speaker 1: it with the Bedel Cast. Hi, and welcome to the
Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. His name is
Speaker 1: Jamie Lofts, and we talk about the portrayal of women
Speaker 1: in movies podcast that you're listening to. That's right. Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, oh that was a little chip and a
Speaker 1: little chip that was reminded me of your slurpers. My
Speaker 1: kissing sounds um alright, So anyway we talk about women
Speaker 1: in movies. We determine if movies pass the Bechdel test,
Speaker 1: which we do more than that. We do so much
Speaker 1: more than that. Yeah, But for those who aren't in
Speaker 1: the know, the Bechtel test is a test that requires
Speaker 1: that a movie has two female characters in it who
Speaker 1: have names, they talked to each other, and they cannot
Speaker 1: be talking about men whatsoever. Let's pay a test. Okay,
Speaker 1: Hey Jamie, hey, kit, do you like apple juice? I
Speaker 1: can't take it or leave it? And that passes the
Speaker 1: Bechtel test. Wow, and what an exciting premise for a
Speaker 1: movie will make content. Yeah, I see like a six
Speaker 1: or seven sequel franchise really fully bankrolled by Mots. We're sellouts. Mots.
Speaker 1: You listening all right? So we're here with a guest,
Speaker 1: as we always are. Um, they say, a friend of
Speaker 1: the show. But this is kind of an enemy of
Speaker 1: the show, my personal enemy. None of the show of me. Okay,
Speaker 1: so enemy of Jamie friend of me. Uh. He is
Speaker 1: a writer, a comedian and co host of the Culture
Speaker 1: King's podcast that's on the house Stuff Works Network. Edgar
Speaker 1: mon plus here and whoa coming in hot? Caitlin. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for having me. Caitlin. You're an old
Speaker 1: friend of mine. It's been so good. I was talking
Speaker 1: to Caitlin fine. Thank you for saying Jamie and I
Speaker 1: have a long running beef because she has outdone me
Speaker 1: as a guest how Stuff Works podcast. You know you
Speaker 1: have to wow. Should I be like the referee of this?
Speaker 1: That means a new outfit? That sounds fun. Well anyway, Edgar,
Speaker 1: We're so happy to have you here, and we are
Speaker 1: talking about Oceans eleven, the two thousand one version directed
Speaker 1: by Steven Soderbergh. Yeah, Edgar, when did you first see
Speaker 1: this movie? Probably when I was a kid. My dad
Speaker 1: and my uncle's are big fans of the Channel Networks
Speaker 1: USA and T n T, so I would watch this
Speaker 1: movie and many other movies like it rotation. Yes it is,
Speaker 1: Yes it is. So i'd watch this movie as a
Speaker 1: kid all the time. I do have a problem with
Speaker 1: this movie and that I don't know the difference between
Speaker 1: the three very well. So when watching it, I kept
Speaker 1: waiting for that Elvis scene and it never happened because
Speaker 1: that's not in this one. And I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: this Elvis scene is going to happen at some point.
Speaker 1: Wait which one is that? I think it's in twelve
Speaker 1: If I'm not really because I just also rewatched that
Speaker 1: and I don't remember it might be. I don't know.
Speaker 1: There's a scene where it's a bunch of elvis Is
Speaker 1: and then they all do and then that's when Bernie
Speaker 1: mac dies. Am I crazy? That does happen? I think
Speaker 1: maybe it is. Yeah, I don't think it's twelve, definitely
Speaker 1: not eleven. All right. Well, the only reason why I
Speaker 1: remember that scene specifically is because there was one time.
Speaker 1: This is a terrible story, but I'll tell this part
Speaker 1: of the story. Anyways, I was having sex with a
Speaker 1: person the day of my best friend's funeral. We were
Speaker 1: in a hotel and that movie was playing on the TV,
Speaker 1: and I think as a way to cope with the
Speaker 1: death of my best friend, I became immediately more focused
Speaker 1: on the movie and I was trying to see whether
Speaker 1: it was eleven, twelve or thirteen based on various clues. Interesting,
Speaker 1: I believe it was thirteen. I'm still not sure until
Speaker 1: this day, but probably the worst sexual experience I've ever
Speaker 1: had in my life. Yeah, you can never enjoy like
Speaker 1: you Trauma Bond speak for yourself, Jamie. That's true. I
Speaker 1: didn't enjoy it at all. Something very upset. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: had a really bad breakup. My boyfriend came over to
Speaker 1: be like, hey, I've been cheating on you. In the
Speaker 1: middle of a John ban A documentary I was really
Speaker 1: excited to watch, and I was so sad. Katie Perry, she, well,
Speaker 1: I'll never know how it ends, was she, Katie Perry. No,
Speaker 1: it was a really bad one that came out that
Speaker 1: where they smashed a pink said with a hand like,
Speaker 1: this is what it would have been like that. That's
Speaker 1: a very popular internet conspiracy is that John Baniy Ramsey
Speaker 1: grew up to be Katie Perry. What. I have never
Speaker 1: heard that before. The other good one is Avril Levine
Speaker 1: that she was dead and replaced with a body doublet
Speaker 1: I have heard that one. That's a good one. Interesting
Speaker 1: all right, Well, anyways, speaking of long cons wowsition, Jamie,
Speaker 1: what's your what's your history with Oceans eleven? I know
Speaker 1: that I thought it was the Big Chilly. It's not
Speaker 1: the Big Chill. It's actually a different movie. But I
Speaker 1: have seen it before. My mom made me watch it,
Speaker 1: and she was horny for various cast members, and so
Speaker 1: I think we probably watched that tant or something I
Speaker 1: guess I would like in middle school or something. Sure,
Speaker 1: I understand that particular attachment to it. Don cheatles like
Speaker 1: Cockney accident really really inspired a sexual awakening for me.
Speaker 1: Really not like a good Cockney accent though, right, Like
Speaker 1: it just sounds really fake. He's very hot in this movie.
Speaker 1: Don't in this movie? Don't you always? But his his accident?
Speaker 1: I was like, is that right? I don't know. I
Speaker 1: was struggling with I bought it. I have a clarification
Speaker 1: to make It's not Oceans eleven. It's a different two
Speaker 1: thousand and one's Las Vegas highest movie called three Thousand
Speaker 1: Miles to Graceland. Oh oh, well, that explains the Elvis
Speaker 1: is Yeah, why have I seen that scene? I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe you've seen that movie. Maybe I have seen and
Speaker 1: it's not Bernie mac who dies, it's bochim Woodbine. I
Speaker 1: would like to apologize to any Bokim Woodbine fans who
Speaker 1: were just like, how dare he disrespect him? There? I
Speaker 1: mean they're listening. They're listening. Get a lot of a
Speaker 1: lot of tweets. Thanks for your clarification. Community is gonna
Speaker 1: go fucking wild. I saw this movie in the theater
Speaker 1: Huge Break in two thousand one. At the time, I
Speaker 1: really liked it. I didn't know what this movie was about,
Speaker 1: or hadn't heard of the original nineteen sixty versions, so
Speaker 1: I like had no context for it, and I just
Speaker 1: went in kind of blind and I was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, this is the best movie ever. So cool.
Speaker 1: I wrote like a paper about it in college. I really,
Speaker 1: for the longest time, really really loved the papers about
Speaker 1: so many It's because we went to college so much.
Speaker 1: It's because I went to so many colleges including Boston
Speaker 1: University four master's degree in screen writing. I hate to
Speaker 1: bring it up, but but yeah, I really enjoyed this movie,
Speaker 1: but I haven't rewatched it in quite a few years,
Speaker 1: so I am excited to talk about it. It's interesting,
Speaker 1: and we have for some reason, covered a lot of
Speaker 1: movies that came out in the year two thousand and
Speaker 1: one on this podcast, because every time you talk about
Speaker 1: something that happens in two thousand one, you have to
Speaker 1: figure out what part of two thousand one it came
Speaker 1: out in, if it was pre or post Shrek exactly.
Speaker 1: That is where that is, of course, the major event
Speaker 1: of two thousand and one. Yeah, Shrek was the last
Speaker 1: knell of innocence that because I was like July and
Speaker 1: then this came out in December, which I you know,
Speaker 1: it's just worth saying because when you say two thousand one,
Speaker 1: you want to know. And also it in you know,
Speaker 1: nine leven, unfortunately informed all media consumption habits forever after that.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting that it came out post eleven, because
Speaker 1: it's a movie chalk full of explosives. Yeah. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then I was I was wondering that I had to
Speaker 1: stop it in the middle to be like, but it
Speaker 1: did so well, Like it was super sich like the
Speaker 1: highest grossing film two thousand one, right right, yeah, and
Speaker 1: like I don't I wonder why this movie like did
Speaker 1: so well, and it's I mean, I mean, it's an
Speaker 1: all star cast. It was like everyone hans of a
Speaker 1: listers in this movie. One of the reasons we're doing
Speaker 1: this movie is because Oceans eight is coming out, and
Speaker 1: of course there you can only have eight because there's
Speaker 1: only eight actresses total total in the word originally there
Speaker 1: aren't eleven actresses, so they can only have eight. Well,
Speaker 1: my guess is that they're gonna they're planning this as
Speaker 1: a trilogy, so they're going to do Oceans eight, nine,
Speaker 1: and ten, and then there's already eleven, twelve, and thirteen,
Speaker 1: and then they're going to bring it back around with
Speaker 1: a co ed cast. Is my guests for fourteen, fifteen,
Speaker 1: and sixteen. But if they're going to have to cut
Speaker 1: out so many people, I mean, I guess some of
Speaker 1: them are dead so they don't have to worry about that.
Speaker 1: But like, or they just totally recast it altogether, or
Speaker 1: they can just stop. I'm I'm tired, I'm tired. The
Speaker 1: extended Ocean in eleven Universe and then and then it's
Speaker 1: gonna be where do we leave off his four? Then
Speaker 1: it's going to be seventeen, eighteen and nineteen comprised entirely
Speaker 1: of non binary, gender fluid, gender queer people. Can they
Speaker 1: just make a movie like? Why does they have to
Speaker 1: be in? Oh? Okay, so we're well, let's let's get
Speaker 1: into the movie. But I just have to say that
Speaker 1: everyone hates Jeli right, but Danny Ocean is a worst
Speaker 1: name for a protagonist than Larry Jeelie and I will
Speaker 1: die on that hill. I couldn't. I was like when
Speaker 1: he's like, my name is Daniel Ocean, I was like,
Speaker 1: this is a fucking dumb name name. I disagree, I think,
Speaker 1: and honest I really do. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm surprised
Speaker 1: by this because it's not good and you thought I
Speaker 1: had better taste. I came in here being like, man,
Speaker 1: they're going to really dislike this movie. But then I'm
Speaker 1: surprised to see that. I'm more with Jamie being like, yo,
Speaker 1: this is this movie is kind of wild in some ways,
Speaker 1: and you're like, you're defending I'm kind of well, here's
Speaker 1: the thing. I love a good heist movie. And this
Speaker 1: is a fun romp. This is a romp and I
Speaker 1: love a good romp. And hey, all tender matches taken
Speaker 1: up this woman. Yeah, Daniel Ocean worst name than Larry
Speaker 1: ge sound off so my mentions, Look, Larry is a
Speaker 1: fun name, Larry with really terrible Okay, I'll do the recap. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's do it. So Danny Ocean best name in Hollywood,
Speaker 1: the best name of a character ever, mixing up up
Speaker 1: with played by George Clooney. He's released from prison. He
Speaker 1: was there because he's a comm man. He's a thief. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's that. But he was handsome. He was handsome. So
Speaker 1: they're like, here, you can be in prison for four
Speaker 1: years and we'll just let you go. It's handsome and
Speaker 1: white privilege. And so he's like, I have an idea,
Speaker 1: and he gets a gang together to rob three casinos
Speaker 1: in Las Vegas. Ever heard of it? And they're all
Speaker 1: owned by Terry Benedict. So that is a great name.
Speaker 1: Hate Danny Ocean. Love Terry Benedict. I don't know. I
Speaker 1: had an issue with his name being Terry Benedict, and
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I was just like, how do
Speaker 1: you get pet Nade. He sounds like a breakfast. Give
Speaker 1: me the Terry Benedict, I wish, I wish that. Okay.
Speaker 1: My two favorite character names for men, Dan Mansion, I
Speaker 1: think is a better name than Danny Ocean Dan Mansion
Speaker 1: and then Mike randoma from what's that from? You say it?
Speaker 1: Say it, Mike Randma. My grandma sounds like my grandma innocent?
Speaker 1: What an innocent joke. I'm gonna edit that out. Okay, Okay.
Speaker 1: So Danny is getting his gang together. They form a plan.
Speaker 1: They're like, we gotta get past all this security. We
Speaker 1: gotta get inside the vaul. Then we have to get
Speaker 1: back outside the vault with all this money. They have
Speaker 1: to heck into the main frame. And everyone has this
Speaker 1: like certain specialty. There's eleven of them total, get it.
Speaker 1: That's the name of the movie. Everyone's playing a few
Speaker 1: different roles in this whole heist thing. And then Frosty
Speaker 1: tips others don't, such as Rusty Ryan played by Brad
Speaker 1: pitt Uh. He and Danny are bros. They are BFFs.
Speaker 1: But he figures out that the reason that Danny Ocean
Speaker 1: is going after these three casinos and Terry Benedict is
Speaker 1: because Terry Benedict is dating Danny Ocean's ex wife Tests,
Speaker 1: She's fully lost in the Benedict sauce she loves. She
Speaker 1: orders him for breakfast every day. Oh, I'm on Terry's team. No,
Speaker 1: I'm kidding. He's bad. He's real bad. Okay. So then
Speaker 1: Rusty's like, Danny, what are you doing bros? Before hose
Speaker 1: And Danny's like, no, this isn't going to affect the plan.
Speaker 1: And then they do the heights. There's like some twists
Speaker 1: and turns, mostly everything goes according to plan and they
Speaker 1: get the money. And then at the end, Test basically
Speaker 1: learns that Terry Benedict is a capitalist who loves capitalism
Speaker 1: and capitalists. He loves his money more than he loves women.
Speaker 1: So Tess leaves him to go back to Danny and
Speaker 1: then they all live happily ever after. It's competent because
Speaker 1: I love money more than men. So in that way
Speaker 1: I can connect with Terry Bennedict's point of view. Yeah
Speaker 1: you're yeah, I'm a Benedict apologis. So not surprisingly, there
Speaker 1: is only one female character in this movie, the entire movie,
Speaker 1: the entire there I I made a list of all
Speaker 1: the women with speaking roles, and I think it's only
Speaker 1: four of them that we see on screen, and then
Speaker 1: a couple of disembodied female voices at the very beginning,
Speaker 1: and a lot of disembodied female body parts, yes, that
Speaker 1: are not given voices. And I would, with some exception,
Speaker 1: to probably extend those criticism to like most movies that
Speaker 1: take place in Las Vegas, of like using women as
Speaker 1: set dressing in a major way. Like there's literally the
Speaker 1: first big card game in this movie. You can just
Speaker 1: see like legs, yeah, in a window, like you, but
Speaker 1: just legs. One woman is allowed to be playing cards,
Speaker 1: but she can't say, you know, she's and we I
Speaker 1: don't know if we ever learned her name. I think
Speaker 1: her name is Holly, the woman playing cards. Yeah, oh no, no, no,
Speaker 1: she's a celebrity. Well I don't mean to explain, but
Speaker 1: like she's like she's a celebrity, and I think she's
Speaker 1: the lead from Charmed and the ideas that Bratt Pitt's
Speaker 1: character now is teaching, yes, famous people how to play cards.
Speaker 1: So she's one of the famous people playing cards. But
Speaker 1: again I put an asterist on that famous because not
Speaker 1: a single one of the people playing cards at that
Speaker 1: table are relevant anymore anymore. The closest a long yeah,
Speaker 1: and josh Joshua Joshua Jackson and Shane West. And then
Speaker 1: I didn't recognize any of the other people, so I
Speaker 1: didn't he's the lead from Charmed, like not Shannon Dartie, Holy,
Speaker 1: Marie Combs. Let's see holl Marie Combs of One of
Speaker 1: my favorite was Pretty Little Liars. Oh, I think that
Speaker 1: I guess that could have but then she just, yeah,
Speaker 1: she was like she wasn't allowed to talk very much.
Speaker 1: She basically just says call over and over again because
Speaker 1: she's playing poker. So yeah, it was okay, okay, Yeah,
Speaker 1: she is one of the four women who we see
Speaker 1: on screen with speaking role, but yeah, she's only in
Speaker 1: the movie for a couple of scenes and then we
Speaker 1: didn't never see her again. Another one is the is
Speaker 1: a blackjack dealer in the very beginning that Danny Ocean
Speaker 1: talks to for maybe thirty seconds. That's frustrating too, because
Speaker 1: the first like a couple of minutes of the movie
Speaker 1: you see there's like a few female characters. One of
Speaker 1: the people interviewing Danny when he's like getting out of jail. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like you can tell, like it's a female voice, but
Speaker 1: you're just looking at George Clooney the whole time. And
Speaker 1: then the black jack scene you hear the voice. I
Speaker 1: think you see her once in like one shot, and
Speaker 1: then you just look at George Cluney the whole time,
Speaker 1: and then once Bernie Max on screen, then you cut
Speaker 1: back and forth. But for the first couple of women
Speaker 1: who could appear on screen, they just like to be like,
Speaker 1: or we could just look at George Clooney right, like,
Speaker 1: we don't need to see women women. Well, the fans
Speaker 1: paid to see George Clooney, and dammit, thir they spent
Speaker 1: their to this blackjack deal there they everyone saved up
Speaker 1: their hard earned clune bucks Clooney cash. When I was
Speaker 1: hitting it hard at that gas station in two thousand one,
Speaker 1: I wasn't saving my money to see some blackjack. You're
Speaker 1: saving for some Clooney. Do you guys accept car fresh
Speaker 1: off of that Batman and Robin fame. Oh sure, Yeah.
Speaker 1: So that's half of the characters already, women who we
Speaker 1: immediately cut away from and then don't see again. Another
Speaker 1: one who named Charmaine. She's a stripper who plays a
Speaker 1: very very small role in helping them get an access
Speaker 1: card that they need to like hack into the main frame.
Speaker 1: And she's also very important because she is, to my knowledge,
Speaker 1: the first mother and daughter strip repair I've ever heard of.
Speaker 1: M met me and my mind go to the Foxy
Speaker 1: Lady and Massachusetts. When I heard that joke, I was like,
Speaker 1: this is such a weird joke to be making. Was like,
Speaker 1: say hi to my mom. Right, well, I want to
Speaker 1: talk about that conversation a little bit later. But so,
Speaker 1: the main female character is test played by Julia Roberts.
Speaker 1: We do not see her on screen until forty four
Speaker 1: minutes into the movie, and when she does come on screen,
Speaker 1: Matt Damon's all like, who's the best part in my day?
Speaker 1: And then we cut to Julia Roberts wearing like a
Speaker 1: foxy red outfit. There's like sexy music playing and she's
Speaker 1: like walking down the stairs like very so it's like
Speaker 1: very male gaze, like, oh, look at this foxy lady,
Speaker 1: And then we learned that basically the plot of the
Speaker 1: movie is that Danny Ocean is targeting these three casinos
Speaker 1: because Terry Benedict stole his woman and he wants to
Speaker 1: win her back because he sees this woman as something
Speaker 1: he can steal, just like any other like con that
Speaker 1: he wants to pull, Like, yeah, classic, I see romance
Speaker 1: in this, I don't know, and I don't know, I
Speaker 1: truly do see romance in this. Is like it is
Speaker 1: an interesting version of the plot of so many movies,
Speaker 1: which is like, I'm gonna trick her into loving me again, right,
Speaker 1: like the little road, you know, George Cloney's rebin is
Speaker 1: a little pause together, He's gotta he's gotta a rack coloon,
Speaker 1: a little rack Cooney a little He's like like a raccoon.
Speaker 1: But yes, sorry, let me keep explaining. He's gonna out
Speaker 1: Benedict Terry at his own game. And there I forgot
Speaker 1: that that was the setup of the movie. I just
Speaker 1: remember that they were stealing stuff. I forgot that it
Speaker 1: was like and then she'll have to marry me like wright, right,
Speaker 1: So like that's a big romance. I mean, like it's
Speaker 1: a big romantic gesture. It's a wide swing. You could
Speaker 1: look at it that way. You could also look at
Speaker 1: it and that he basically views her as property because well,
Speaker 1: I mean, we don't know how necessarily Danny Ocean feels
Speaker 1: about the situation, but I think it's pretty clear that
Speaker 1: the movie is coming from a standpoint where she's essentially
Speaker 1: a plot device, because it doesn't really make any sense
Speaker 1: that she is with Terry Benedict, but it's convenient for
Speaker 1: the story because then that motivates Danny Ocean to pull
Speaker 1: this heist, because we as we see in so many movies,
Speaker 1: we don't necessarily understand why Tests and Terry Benedict are
Speaker 1: together because they don't seem that compatible. Because Tests is
Speaker 1: not actually a fully realized, developed character. She's with him
Speaker 1: because it serves the story and it's convenient for the plot,
Speaker 1: and Test is a really poor, like underwritten character where
Speaker 1: a lot of like the tropes they lean into, and
Speaker 1: and every character in this movie is underwritten, maybe with
Speaker 1: the exception of Danny, like he's the only character that
Speaker 1: you were like, okay, I think I fully get where
Speaker 1: this guy is coming from, even though you know, I
Speaker 1: don't agree with it, but whatever, But there's just like
Speaker 1: too many bull in this movie in general, where nine
Speaker 1: out of the eleven men blend together. For me, I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh there, why would you put Matt Damon and Bradbitt
Speaker 1: like they have the same face. It's confusing, But like
Speaker 1: Test Ocean classic. We gotta give this woman a job.
Speaker 1: She's an art curator, like that's so many movies, or
Speaker 1: like she runs you know she like because I I
Speaker 1: wonder why that's like a classic, like more of like
Speaker 1: a rom com trope of like, oh, she's does business,
Speaker 1: but like girl business, you know, like not it's not
Speaker 1: too threatening if she runs a gallery. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you know this, but women can only be museum curators,
Speaker 1: or they work at a magazine in New York City,
Speaker 1: or they own a bakery, or they're a wedding planner.
Speaker 1: I love when they're journalists, but then they get a
Speaker 1: little too into this story and then the lines blur
Speaker 1: in there that kiss. Those are all good jobs as
Speaker 1: high paying job was Okay, they're good five figures a year.
Speaker 1: It's true. They have gorgeous apartments all the time. Listen, Okay,
Speaker 1: I mean she was baiting a casino mogul, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean that's a good place to be. The terry
Speaker 1: they say that he's worth nearly a billion dollars, So
Speaker 1: is that in usd S or Benedict? But I did
Speaker 1: want to say that, like I found it a little
Speaker 1: bit interesting that like a trope that I hated movies
Speaker 1: is that, like the person that she's seeing is like
Speaker 1: a bad person. Like I've always hated that in movies
Speaker 1: because it's just like they broke up with you originally
Speaker 1: because you were a douche are like you know, like
Speaker 1: I don't like the idea of like you can steal
Speaker 1: someone away from their partner may be based on my
Speaker 1: own insecurities of that happening one day, but like, um,
Speaker 1: I was like kind of rooting for it to happen
Speaker 1: because I was like, yo, you know this Terry Benedict
Speaker 1: dude's kind of a douche. But oh sure, I mean
Speaker 1: we don't like him as the audience of course, right,
Speaker 1: but like the Terry Benic character being so flat out
Speaker 1: like cartoon villainy mustache, twisty evil. I feel like the
Speaker 1: reason that's done is because Danny is not a good guy.
Speaker 1: And so you know exactly like you have to make
Speaker 1: someone wearse and the rules of this cinematic universe is
Speaker 1: girl has to be with someone so rofully, the one
Speaker 1: that is more handsome and less bad like, and that's
Speaker 1: just sort of what the rules of engagement are. There's
Speaker 1: never there's never a moment in the movie where it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: she's gonna she's gonna strike out, you know, yeah, and
Speaker 1: then open up her own museum. But no, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: So we find out at the end that Danny has
Speaker 1: set it up so that she will have a choice,
Speaker 1: but the choice is to pick between two men. So
Speaker 1: it's either do you want this ex con criminal who
Speaker 1: steals and lies about it or do you want this
Speaker 1: capitalist who treats you poorly and doesn't want to kiss
Speaker 1: you in public, which, like, what was that all about?
Speaker 1: I don't I mean. Also, it's like maybe Terry thatgic
Speaker 1: just like shy, maybe he does. Maybe maybe he doesn't
Speaker 1: defense of about it? Now all people like PDA makes
Speaker 1: some people uncomfortable. Who knows. Basically he is a bad
Speaker 1: guy and it doesn't make any sense that she would
Speaker 1: be with him. But yeah, So the movie sets it
Speaker 1: up so that she has given a choice, but her
Speaker 1: only two options are to be with one guy or
Speaker 1: different guy. And that's that's the thing with so many movies.
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, do you want to be with the
Speaker 1: vampire or the wear wolf? Do you want to be
Speaker 1: with the boy who bakes cakes or the boy who
Speaker 1: calls you cat nip, I just see good choices here.
Speaker 1: I I'm so stuck, guys. I'm truly you know, I
Speaker 1: truly said Edgar, come onto this podcast with an open mind,
Speaker 1: and I did, and all I'm hearing are good choices,
Speaker 1: you know. Like I think about Juno in the very
Speaker 1: very good movie Juno, where she had to pick between
Speaker 1: a high school senior or married Jason Bateman, and like,
Speaker 1: that's a good place for a pregnant underage girl. Good choice,
Speaker 1: good choice icon Jason Bateman really ally to all. The
Speaker 1: bottom line is that this movie, like so many movies,
Speaker 1: if they have a female character, it's usually just one
Speaker 1: of them in the movie treats them like they're a
Speaker 1: prize to be one. To borrow a phrase from Aladdin,
Speaker 1: where Jasmine says, I Am not a prize to be one,
Speaker 1: but she sort of is, but is like so many movies.
Speaker 1: But um, no time is spent developing her character. If
Speaker 1: she is on screen, she's usually like seems mean and
Speaker 1: yelly and like naggy. I wonder how much, like okay,
Speaker 1: if we did screen time, how much Julie robertis on
Speaker 1: screen versus how much time of this movie is used
Speaker 1: with long shots of a large pack of men walking
Speaker 1: down to hall ominously like it has to be three
Speaker 1: times longer in walking down halls. This movie cut out
Speaker 1: all the men walking down all the halls. Toymn is
Speaker 1: long A short film, a short film best, But there's
Speaker 1: just we've seen this peg and I was like, this
Speaker 1: is this is scary. There might be more security camera
Speaker 1: footage than Julia Roberts screen time. Honestly, yeah, absolutely, Like
Speaker 1: they're caseyf like problematic. Cacyf like probably has more right,
Speaker 1: right right. I just yeah, there, this movie didn't And
Speaker 1: I still love a heist movie, and I hope that,
Speaker 1: like I hope Oceans eight like knocks it out of
Speaker 1: the park and it's a fun, highst movie that you
Speaker 1: don't have to feel shitty watching because heist movies can
Speaker 1: be so fun. But I mean, obviously with Ocean's eleven,
Speaker 1: they're adapting it from an even more problematic version that's
Speaker 1: has anyone seen that one from I've seen it once
Speaker 1: a long time ago. I haven't seen it, so yeah,
Speaker 1: but like so basically, yeah, we've got the all female
Speaker 1: reboot coming out. Oceans eleven from two thousand one is
Speaker 1: already a reboot, and it's like forty years later, but Mr.
Speaker 1: Hollywood was like, let's make an Ocean's eleven reboot, but
Speaker 1: we're still going to keep it all men. So it
Speaker 1: took another almost twenty years later for them to be like, actually,
Speaker 1: what if women this time? Yeah, Frank Sinatra plays Danny
Speaker 1: Ocean otherwise known as Larry Jalie in the original version,
Speaker 1: and I don't remember how much is changed from that
Speaker 1: version to this. I'm assuming that some changes are made
Speaker 1: and hopefully this movie, right they Yeah, And the first
Speaker 1: time it's just was just Sammy Davis Jr. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: just so dumb because all like all eleven dudes, like
Speaker 1: nine of them are so criminally underwritten that literally any
Speaker 1: of them could be women because they're not even written
Speaker 1: as like toxic male character. They're just written as like
Speaker 1: nothing right there. It would be so easy to have
Speaker 1: And I'm kind of surprised that by two thousand one
Speaker 1: they weren't doing like a wink wink. Even this is
Speaker 1: like set in the bar Sola, but like you can't
Speaker 1: even tokenize the woman in this part of Like there
Speaker 1: were so many opportunities where it was like, oh, this
Speaker 1: would be if there were one woman on the team
Speaker 1: where she would prove her competence and all the guys
Speaker 1: would be like, WHOA love that scene and that well
Speaker 1: that sort of happens in Ocean's twelve. I haven't I
Speaker 1: didn't watch Ocean's thirteen, so I can't totally remember who
Speaker 1: the extra person is. And yeah, so Tessa's character is
Speaker 1: introduced as one of the twelve in the sequel. That
Speaker 1: movie is I would say, even worse than this one,
Speaker 1: because even I think that's two four see and that
Speaker 1: to me, I would like to applaud Steven Soderbergh because
Speaker 1: he said, you know what, just wait three years and
Speaker 1: I get you guys frustration and you guys anger of
Speaker 1: your lack of representation, but like progress does take time,
Speaker 1: and to get Julia robertson there three years later, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's pretty impresive, stunning turnaround. Well, there's even a couple
Speaker 1: more female characters that one, because Catherine data Jones is introduced.
Speaker 1: We meet someone's mom eventually, but so tests becomes one
Speaker 1: of the twelve, one of the people pulling off the heist.
Speaker 1: But her skill, the thing that she contributes to the heist,
Speaker 1: like the only thing that she has to offer is
Speaker 1: her physical resemblance to another woman. So it's not as
Speaker 1: though she has like this great skill like, you know,
Speaker 1: because everyone like don cheatles good at um like explosives.
Speaker 1: There's a surveillance guy, there's Yen who does like all
Speaker 1: the like fitting into tight spaces, which isn't that glamorous
Speaker 1: of the job. True, it seems very claustrophobic. Um, but
Speaker 1: they all have like a distinct specialty. Whereas yeah, TESSAs
Speaker 1: just like, oh, you look like another woman, so you're
Speaker 1: going to help us out, and also we're going to
Speaker 1: make you seem pregnant time. And then the plot of
Speaker 1: that movie is basically just one big dick measuring contest.
Speaker 1: At least Ocean's eleven has the decency to not even
Speaker 1: really mention whom in one time. There's it was interesting
Speaker 1: watching um and I don't even know what this indicates
Speaker 1: about the movie or at this point in time at all,
Speaker 1: but you know, you keep seeing obviously these scenes with
Speaker 1: like eleven guys talking to each other, and I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: they're gonna say something sucked up there. It's gonna be gross,
Speaker 1: it's gonna be whatever. But they don't. They really just
Speaker 1: talk about the heist. That's all they talk about. Women
Speaker 1: don't come up in this movie really ever, which is
Speaker 1: weird because it's the thrust and the reason they're doing
Speaker 1: it is because George Clooney want him wife back. But
Speaker 1: the dialogue of the movie largely like, you never know
Speaker 1: women existed. That's because we don't. And I don't know
Speaker 1: if you guys have ever hung up with ten or
Speaker 1: eleven men, but it's something I do every other day.
Speaker 1: We don't talk about women in those times. We usually
Speaker 1: are talking about heist. You know, different casinos that we
Speaker 1: want to hit. Any group of ten and see ten
Speaker 1: or eleven men together, they're probably planning a heist or
Speaker 1: hoping that a woman who looks like another woman comes by, right,
Speaker 1: just just to help out the team, you know Julia
Speaker 1: Real Guys Galt and Oceans Well in Oceans eleven. Whenever
Speaker 1: they are talking about a woman, that's usually Brad Pitt
Speaker 1: confronting George Clooney basically being like, you're not doing this
Speaker 1: for tests, are you were? You're just doing this because
Speaker 1: you're also a capitalist and you want a bunch of money, right, Basically,
Speaker 1: like Brad Pitt sees her as a complication, like she's
Speaker 1: poised as this thing that's potentially going to funk up
Speaker 1: their plans. And I do agree that one should not
Speaker 1: steal from casinos for the purpose of tricking. Julia Roberts
Speaker 1: pits point there, but I think there it's like an
Speaker 1: interesting like that's made another way that the test character
Speaker 1: is like used by the movie and then never developed.
Speaker 1: Because it's fine for characters to have specific reasons to
Speaker 1: be in the movie, pure you also have to write it,
Speaker 1: and they forgot they slipped. But the fact that, like
Speaker 1: George Clooney, displaying emotion or attachment to anyone is viewed
Speaker 1: as this massive liability for the for the group. Another
Speaker 1: thing I wanted to say in regards to Tests is
Speaker 1: that at the end, whenever she makes her choice, the
Speaker 1: very important choice that the movie presents her with where
Speaker 1: she only has two options to pick one man or
Speaker 1: a different man and not Oh, maybe I should leave
Speaker 1: these men all together and move to somewhere else and
Speaker 1: pursue Maybe I'll go and date someone who doesn't have
Speaker 1: a silly last name, or maybe I'm going to go
Speaker 1: back to school and study art history and open up
Speaker 1: my own museum. Anyway, basically, what's going to happen to
Speaker 1: the economy in seven years. She's basically made to look
Speaker 1: stupid at the end, where whenever she is like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I didn't know what you were doing, Danny,
Speaker 1: and he was like, well I did, so it's fine.
Speaker 1: So the whole movie she's who are my wife? Again?
Speaker 1: When she's on screen, she's like yelling and seems really mean,
Speaker 1: and then she makes her choice to go back with Danny,
Speaker 1: and then she's like, oh, wow, what a stupid mistake
Speaker 1: I made dating Terry Benedict. I should have been with
Speaker 1: you all along, Danny. And it's just very frustrating her characters.
Speaker 1: I wants to talk about their first their first conversation
Speaker 1: together Danny and Tess, because he is looking for her.
Speaker 1: She does not want to see him and expresses that
Speaker 1: several times in the conversation. This is like another where
Speaker 1: there's like a bunch of rom com tropes inside of
Speaker 1: this highst movie where the guy shows up, he is
Speaker 1: not welcome. That is stated. She says, don't sit down,
Speaker 1: go away, Like there there's a bunch of different indicators
Speaker 1: that she doesn't because Terry fucking Addict is on the
Speaker 1: way a god among men is blazing down the hall,
Speaker 1: you know, but like she she doesn't want him to
Speaker 1: be there, and him staying there is like, oh what
Speaker 1: a you? You little devil? You like it's not made
Speaker 1: to seem inappropriate. It's just like George Clooney cluning the
Speaker 1: fuck out and it's like, no, but she actually wants
Speaker 1: him to stay, which is like implying that subtext and
Speaker 1: an underwritten female character happens all the time, and it's
Speaker 1: like super damaging and bad for sure. Get out of
Speaker 1: their clue, get out. I just wish that Clune with
Speaker 1: like two do one match dot Com is around. He's
Speaker 1: George Clooney. You can't but listen, okay, you can't. You
Speaker 1: can't gather up your boys for just some match dot
Speaker 1: Com like person. You know what I'm saying, Like it's
Speaker 1: got to be somebody special. I'm just saying he should steal,
Speaker 1: absolutely steal from Terry Benedict. But like, but also, I
Speaker 1: have an interior life. If and have your match dot
Speaker 1: Com profile, and that's a separate thing. Don't involve your
Speaker 1: don't don't mix work and and play. Have you ever
Speaker 1: had unrequited love before? No, I'm I've only been loved
Speaker 1: by who I want all the time my whole life.
Speaker 1: I've only had unrequited love in my life. And I
Speaker 1: can tell you that there are so many things I've
Speaker 1: done that have never resulted in the woman. And uh,
Speaker 1: to see this workout was you know, very very continued
Speaker 1: in't like not good behavior. No, I didn't say that.
Speaker 1: I didn't say that. I didn't say that. I wanted
Speaker 1: to be very clear that I'm not telling young men
Speaker 1: out there to do anything. Actually, I'm telling most young
Speaker 1: men out there don't do anything. Please. Still, bad things
Speaker 1: happen when you do things. But I want to be like,
Speaker 1: it feels good to see a man win for once,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like an even better see
Speaker 1: eleven men win Jesus. I mean I had to contain
Speaker 1: myself while watching this. Yeah, I mean there's a reason,
Speaker 1: I know, what look groundbreaking cinema to watch a group
Speaker 1: of men win. I mean, there's a reason I like
Speaker 1: this movie and I still like this movie. Um yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I was entertained while I was rewatching it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's just the fact that he does
Speaker 1: this whole thing to basically prove his masculinity over another man.
Speaker 1: He's like, I have to like make sure that my
Speaker 1: ex wife, who doesn't love me anymore because she filed
Speaker 1: for divorce, I have to prove to her that I'm
Speaker 1: more of a man than this new man that she
Speaker 1: has chosen for whatever reason, and I'm better than him. So,
Speaker 1: I mean, just so much of his behavior is like
Speaker 1: not like that when when someone slips her a phone
Speaker 1: terrifying behavior and then called and like and and then
Speaker 1: the fact that it one of his big romantic gesture
Speaker 1: moments is like, I've been secretly taping your new boyfriend,
Speaker 1: Terry Benedict. Like, if you apply this to rettal life,
Speaker 1: you're like, holy sh it. This is if your ex
Speaker 1: comes out of the woodwork to be like, actually, your
Speaker 1: new boyfriend is not a good guy. I know because
Speaker 1: I've been secretly surveilling him for weeks. And well, then
Speaker 1: I would ask you, Jamie and Caitlin, what would you
Speaker 1: propose us to do? Would what would you propose? What
Speaker 1: would you say that he Danny Ocean should approach Tess
Speaker 1: and say, hey, look, I've done really bad things in
Speaker 1: the past. I've been a jerk, I've manipulated you, I
Speaker 1: lied to you, and I'm sorry I'm not expecting anything
Speaker 1: in return for this apology. I'm just saying that, is
Speaker 1: that what you're proposing he should do, right, That sounds silly,
Speaker 1: That sounds dumb, because I mean, that sounds like a
Speaker 1: lot of work. And if she says, if she is
Speaker 1: open to the idea of maybe rekindling a thing like
Speaker 1: a romance, there probably doesn't need to be a huge
Speaker 1: grand gesture. Maybe he just needs to pay attention to
Speaker 1: her and cater to her emotional needs. Well, I counter that,
Speaker 1: Caitlin by saying, every piece of media I've seen since
Speaker 1: I was born tells me otherwise. Then you're right. You
Speaker 1: should do what media tells you to do, because it's
Speaker 1: always right there, I don't, I mean. And then part
Speaker 1: of the reason she didn't want to be with him
Speaker 1: is because he went to jail for like stealing, stealing,
Speaker 1: and thenlined her right, and then he wins her back
Speaker 1: by once again stealing, un lying to her, and then
Speaker 1: it's like, but this time nothing, It's exactly. The only
Speaker 1: difference is he does not get fully caught, like he
Speaker 1: pulls it off. That the only difference. But we all
Speaker 1: know that things are only bad when you get caught
Speaker 1: and you get. Well, that is true there, but the
Speaker 1: the lesson there of like no women want you to
Speaker 1: keep doing exactly what you were doing, but just be
Speaker 1: the best at doing it. And it's like the terrible
Speaker 1: behavior that caused her to you know, he went to
Speaker 1: jail and then I don't know if they broke up
Speaker 1: forfore he went to jail, or if they broke up
Speaker 1: because he went to jail. I don't know if that's
Speaker 1: explicitly stated. He says that he received the divorce papers
Speaker 1: the last day he was inside, so they were technically
Speaker 1: married for a for the most of the time he
Speaker 1: was in jail, which I think we're led to believe
Speaker 1: is a few years, right, And it sounds like she
Speaker 1: wasn't like visiting him, right, but like just setting that
Speaker 1: precedent of like do the exact same thing, but as
Speaker 1: long as you get away with it, she'll love you.
Speaker 1: Like it's Yeah, it's a dangerous message to send it rules. Yes,
Speaker 1: I'm in love with Criminals. Does anyone have any other
Speaker 1: final thoughts about the movie? Uh, it's weird. There's there's
Speaker 1: really just test to talk about. Uh, this movie largely
Speaker 1: ignores women and a way that's so blatant. I find
Speaker 1: it almost adorable where it's like we've got eleven men
Speaker 1: in every scene and women don't exist. Like it's just
Speaker 1: very very haisty, hive mind. I think this movie could
Speaker 1: have done with more hacking sequences. I would have loved
Speaker 1: to see more hallway walks. I would have loved to
Speaker 1: see more emotional repression. And I think Alfred Molina would
Speaker 1: have been a great Terry Benedict. Oh, sure, see. I
Speaker 1: think there should have been more Danny Ocean standing in
Speaker 1: front of Trump Plaza. I thought they also should have,
Speaker 1: you know, between like Casey Affleck and then like Matt
Speaker 1: Damon saying tone deaf stuff all the time. I think
Speaker 1: they really could have gotten more problematic men in there. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the fact that we get shout out to Trump,
Speaker 1: very pro casino, pro gambling movie. I loved that we
Speaker 1: were seeing women's legs but never their faces or hear
Speaker 1: their voices and not know if it was attached to
Speaker 1: a body at all. Just the mystique, the feminine mystique. Really,
Speaker 1: I think it's fair to assume, and I'll say it,
Speaker 1: Oceans eleven a feminist text, definitely hundred sent. One other
Speaker 1: thing I wanted to say, just in regards to Steven Soderberg,
Speaker 1: I do think it's interesting that he goes on to
Speaker 1: direct movies that are far more progressive and far more
Speaker 1: sex positive. He directed Magic Mike. Oh yeah, so it's
Speaker 1: Girlfriend Experience and the Yeah yeah. So It's like, it's
Speaker 1: interesting and encouraging to see that the same director who
Speaker 1: could direct this competent but ignoring basically everything kind of
Speaker 1: movie can go on to make better, more conscious and
Speaker 1: just like generally those two I like those two movies
Speaker 1: way better in general. Um so, uh so that's good.
Speaker 1: Is Steven Soarderburg Sex Criminal are winged? Not that I
Speaker 1: have heard, But it's also hard to keep track of
Speaker 1: them all because there are so many. One last thing
Speaker 1: that I wanted to say, this is very important is
Speaker 1: that inside of the briefcase that ends up in the
Speaker 1: vault in the movie Oceans eleven inside is basically four
Speaker 1: mean Heart of the Oceans from Titanic. They're like little
Speaker 1: green jewels. And also Danny's last name is Ocean, so
Speaker 1: his heart could technically be called of the Heart of
Speaker 1: the Ocean. I don't know. This movie just completely swooned.
Speaker 1: It's so confusing to me, um, does it pass the
Speaker 1: Bechtel tests? Not even close? But okay. So I wanted
Speaker 1: to call back to that conversation that Brad Pitt is
Speaker 1: having with that character Charmaine, because the closest thing this
Speaker 1: movie has two women interacting with each other is Rusty
Speaker 1: saying to Charmaine, say hi to your mom for me.
Speaker 1: So he's encouraging her to talk to another woman. But
Speaker 1: she responds and says, tell her yourself. She'll be on
Speaker 1: stage in five minutes. So she's like, I don't want
Speaker 1: to talk to another woman. That can't happen in this movie.
Speaker 1: You talk to her. I want to see that movie, Like,
Speaker 1: that's the movie that is more interesting than the one
Speaker 1: I'm wanting. All right, let's write the movie based on
Speaker 1: our nipple scale, based on its portrayal of women zero
Speaker 1: to five nipples. I mean, gosh, it's confused, zero nipples.
Speaker 1: Like the one woman who has any significant screen time,
Speaker 1: which is still hardly any, and who has any sort
Speaker 1: of bearing on the story is basically just a plot device,
Speaker 1: a prize to be one. She's given no character development. Yeah,
Speaker 1: She's really just there to serve as motivation for one
Speaker 1: of the male characters. And to make him seem more
Speaker 1: complex and more sympathetic. So yeah, I have to give
Speaker 1: it a zero NIP rating. Even though I do enjoy
Speaker 1: this movie, I almost want to say, like not applicable
Speaker 1: because women are just not in this movie or mentioned
Speaker 1: in this movie, which I don't think we've ever had
Speaker 1: a movie quite like this, where usually if we give
Speaker 1: something zero poles, it's like it treats women terribly. This
Speaker 1: movie doesn't treat women like anything. They don't exist in
Speaker 1: this world. For Julia Roberts, who is you know, a
Speaker 1: prop I would give this movie five nibbles because I
Speaker 1: think that a woman could watch this movie and if
Speaker 1: there's a woman out there who's just like, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm in this relationship with this person that I'm not
Speaker 1: sure I like, or I had this career that I'm
Speaker 1: stuck in, that they can know there's a man out
Speaker 1: there who's been purposefully keeping her in the dark and
Speaker 1: you know, manipulating her and stuff like that, but with
Speaker 1: good intention, and that it's all going to work out
Speaker 1: in the end. We're all looking for art. Terry Benedict.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm looking for mind, Terry Benedict, and I
Speaker 1: hope that he's listening right now. Well, I'll do you
Speaker 1: one better and hope that you get a Danny Ocean.
Speaker 1: I don't want to Danny Ocean if you've been listening.
Speaker 1: But it's not about what. I'm an art gallery, I'm
Speaker 1: an art curator, I'm an art I'm in Please marry me.
Speaker 1: Uh well, Edgar, thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 1: It was my pleasure. Where can we Where can we
Speaker 1: find you? On the web? You can find me on
Speaker 1: Instagram at awful gram, on Twitter at Edgar Mope. Was
Speaker 1: here on the Culture Kings podcast on how self works
Speaker 1: and I got this project coming out soon call sad
Speaker 1: Boy Edgar. Make sure to check that out and you
Speaker 1: can follow us on social media at Bacto Cast. You
Speaker 1: can rate and review us on iTunes. You can go
Speaker 1: to our website where you can buy our merch and
Speaker 1: also sign up for our Matreon and check out Oceans
Speaker 1: eight if you want we didn't really talk about. If
Speaker 1: you want more more well, speaking of our matren, if
Speaker 1: you want more of a take on female reboots and
Speaker 1: whether or not they are useful at all, check out
Speaker 1: our Ghostbusters episode. The two thousand and sixteen all female
Speaker 1: reboot episode of that only on our Matreon for more
Speaker 1: discussion on the all female reboot concept we get into
Speaker 1: it and otherwise. Jamie, I just want you to know
Speaker 1: that I would never steal a hundred and sixty million
Speaker 1: dollars from you. Thank you so much. I aspired to
Speaker 1: be your Tarry Bennett. I will betray you, all right.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.