WEBVTT - S.G. Goodman 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:22.876 Pushkin. When SG Goodman released her debut album, Old Time 0:00:22.876 --> 0:00:25.556 Feeling in twenty twenty, critics hailed it as a stunning 0:00:25.596 --> 0:00:28.956 introduction to a bold new voice in Americana. Co Produced 0:00:28.996 --> 0:00:31.916 with Jim James of My Morning Jacket, the album showcased 0:00:31.956 --> 0:00:35.676 Goodman's ability to balance classic Southern sounds with progressive ideas, 0:00:35.876 --> 0:00:38.716 earning widespread acclaim and landing on numerous year end best 0:00:38.716 --> 0:00:42.156 of lists. SG was raised in Hickman, Kentucky, and a 0:00:42.196 --> 0:00:46.316 family of roe crop farmers and storytellers. That upbringing shaped 0:00:46.316 --> 0:00:49.476 her worldview and her songwriting. She sings about small town 0:00:49.516 --> 0:00:53.516 living with both deep affection and clear eyed critique. Now, 0:00:53.556 --> 0:00:56.676 with her third album, Planting by the Signs, Goodman continues 0:00:56.716 --> 0:01:00.756 to mind rich themes like love, loss, and reconciliation. The 0:01:00.836 --> 0:01:03.236 record is inspired in part by the ancient tradition of 0:01:03.276 --> 0:01:05.756 farming according to the cycles of the Moon, a practice 0:01:05.796 --> 0:01:09.116 passed down through generations in her family. On today's episode, 0:01:09.236 --> 0:01:11.716 Bruce Helen talks to SG Goodman about growing up in 0:01:11.756 --> 0:01:14.836 a family of storytellers and how that tradition makes its 0:01:14.876 --> 0:01:18.556 way into her songwriting. She also discusses co producing her 0:01:18.596 --> 0:01:21.036 latest album and how she was able to make a bigger, 0:01:21.316 --> 0:01:26.076 more atmospheric sounding record, and she performs a song I'm 0:01:26.116 --> 0:01:34.396 in Love Live. This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations. 0:01:39.356 --> 0:01:41.476 Here's Bruce Headlam with SG Goodman. 0:01:42.876 --> 0:01:44.836 Tell me about planting by the signs. 0:01:45.956 --> 0:01:49.996 Well, Planting by the Signs, which is the title of 0:01:50.036 --> 0:01:54.076 my album, is an ancient belief system, and in fact, 0:01:54.116 --> 0:01:56.076 a lot of people. I guess there's been a lot 0:01:56.076 --> 0:01:59.316 of different cultures that have looked to the moon and 0:01:59.356 --> 0:02:05.156 the stars for guidance and planting by the signs, and 0:02:05.476 --> 0:02:08.676 I guess a simple way to put it is when 0:02:08.756 --> 0:02:14.716 people noticed that the moon affected water and everything that 0:02:15.356 --> 0:02:19.156 was made of water would probably be affected by the moon. 0:02:19.316 --> 0:02:21.836 Was this an idea you grew up with your dad 0:02:21.916 --> 0:02:22.476 was a farmer. 0:02:24.236 --> 0:02:30.156 Yeah, I kind of learned about this concept just over 0:02:30.196 --> 0:02:34.476 the kitchen table old people in my community. And it 0:02:34.516 --> 0:02:38.556 wasn't necessarily something that they pointed out that we believed in. 0:02:39.276 --> 0:02:43.396 But for instance, I was weaned for my mother by 0:02:43.436 --> 0:02:46.436 the signs. My brother cuts his hair by the signs. 0:02:47.716 --> 0:02:52.956 I remember, you know, my grandmother saying things like the 0:02:52.996 --> 0:02:55.436 signs are in the head, you'll if you pull a 0:02:55.476 --> 0:02:58.476 tooth threat in you're gonna bleed more these types of things, 0:02:59.116 --> 0:03:02.556 but in current day, because you know, I guess my 0:03:02.756 --> 0:03:06.516 lineage of knowing this belief system would have came through 0:03:06.636 --> 0:03:12.076 like probably Celtic, Irish ancestors, German whatever passed through the 0:03:12.116 --> 0:03:15.956 Appalachi Mountains settled in the South, and these are things 0:03:15.956 --> 0:03:20.476 that they still believed. But this was just kind of 0:03:20.476 --> 0:03:25.356 a common practice and still people use this to this 0:03:25.476 --> 0:03:28.116 day to plant and to do certain things. 0:03:28.996 --> 0:03:31.636 What resonated for you when you were thinking of this 0:03:31.716 --> 0:03:32.956 album and the song. 0:03:33.556 --> 0:03:37.996 Well, I have five little nieces and a nephew, pretty young, 0:03:39.036 --> 0:03:42.676 and I guess there's probably this moment for everybody when 0:03:42.676 --> 0:03:46.556 you realize that you are going to be the one 0:03:46.596 --> 0:03:50.676 who's now the storyteller of the family. I remember my 0:03:50.836 --> 0:03:54.476 aunts and uncles and older people in my community telling 0:03:54.636 --> 0:03:59.076 stories and kind of giving me a context of things. 0:03:59.476 --> 0:04:02.676 And yeah, that was just kind of a little bit 0:04:02.716 --> 0:04:06.276 of burden that I felt to do to make sure 0:04:06.396 --> 0:04:11.796 that my art reflected something and more substantial than me 0:04:12.156 --> 0:04:15.916 just writing like a heartbreak song. You know, I mean, 0:04:16.676 --> 0:04:19.756 if people were looking back at music in this current moment, 0:04:20.396 --> 0:04:24.276 we could find a lot of heartbreak songs. But can 0:04:24.316 --> 0:04:29.876 we find songs that help us, you know, hold onto 0:04:30.316 --> 0:04:34.156 our history and kind of point to how our belief 0:04:34.196 --> 0:04:38.276 systems have always changed over time. Maybe that would help 0:04:38.916 --> 0:04:39.876 somewhere down the road. 0:04:40.436 --> 0:04:42.436 Are there songwriters who do that for you? 0:04:43.596 --> 0:04:48.876 Well, I would say that there are archivists that have 0:04:49.036 --> 0:04:50.596 done that for me, you know. I think of like 0:04:50.676 --> 0:04:59.156 Alan Lomax, and I think of how I've really enjoyed 0:04:59.196 --> 0:05:02.796 listening to old field recordings and people who've gone into 0:05:02.836 --> 0:05:05.996 different parts of the world and set up a little 0:05:06.556 --> 0:05:11.716 tape recorder and have captured something, especially when it comes 0:05:11.796 --> 0:05:17.956 to old traditional folk tunes and melodies and things. You 0:05:17.996 --> 0:05:22.556 can see we're connected across history, especially when it comes 0:05:22.596 --> 0:05:24.476 to musical traditions for sure. 0:05:25.236 --> 0:05:29.116 And that's also a sound, that field recording sound. That's 0:05:29.156 --> 0:05:31.356 something that finds its way into your albums. It finds 0:05:31.396 --> 0:05:34.596 its way into this album, I think, yeah. 0:05:34.596 --> 0:05:37.796 You know, I guess a better way to put what 0:05:38.036 --> 0:05:41.116 made me want to write this album is I was 0:05:41.156 --> 0:05:47.356 really interested in how stories are passed down, and one 0:05:47.476 --> 0:05:50.356 thing that was important to me while making the album 0:05:50.716 --> 0:05:54.116 was to represent a lot of different ways stories are 0:05:54.156 --> 0:05:57.396 passed down. So that's one reason I included some field 0:05:57.436 --> 0:06:00.996 recordings and the actual album. That's the reason I included 0:06:02.116 --> 0:06:08.316 tattoos as my artwork that showcased, you know, little images 0:06:08.396 --> 0:06:10.836 that show up in the album. Tattoos are a way 0:06:10.876 --> 0:06:14.116 that we actually put stories on our own bodies. You know. 0:06:14.796 --> 0:06:16.716 Were there great storytellers in your family? 0:06:17.316 --> 0:06:18.196 Oh? Absolutely? 0:06:18.516 --> 0:06:19.996 Who are the great storytellers? 0:06:20.436 --> 0:06:26.116 My favorite storytellers would be my aunt Sally, And you know, 0:06:26.196 --> 0:06:30.636 I think Southerners sometimes they have their little signature thing 0:06:30.676 --> 0:06:35.356 that they say. I would say that if people who 0:06:35.396 --> 0:06:39.076 are close to me, I tend to go, well, Comma 0:06:39.676 --> 0:06:43.236 and then go into it. Well. My aunt Sally, her 0:06:43.316 --> 0:06:46.876 husband my uncle is named Walter, and the way she 0:06:47.036 --> 0:06:50.516 always starts a story is, well, I laughed and told 0:06:50.556 --> 0:06:54.756 Walter and whatever it is, and so she always says that, 0:06:54.956 --> 0:06:57.556 and that's, you know, it's something I'll never forget. But 0:06:57.636 --> 0:07:00.916 it's the it's really kind of the cadence and the 0:07:00.956 --> 0:07:04.676 flow of a story that I think is you know, 0:07:04.756 --> 0:07:07.876 one of the most special things about a Southern story 0:07:07.996 --> 0:07:10.396 because they're going to be long, they're going to be winding, 0:07:11.396 --> 0:07:13.876 and it's an art form for sure. But yeah, I 0:07:13.916 --> 0:07:15.676 was raised with best I'd say I was raised with 0:07:15.676 --> 0:07:16.636 the best storytellers. 0:07:16.676 --> 0:07:18.476 Are you very conscious of that. When you sit down 0:07:18.556 --> 0:07:21.236 to write, are you thinking of telling stories in a 0:07:21.276 --> 0:07:21.836 certain way. 0:07:22.916 --> 0:07:26.716 I feel like it's something that comes kind of natural 0:07:26.756 --> 0:07:31.156 to me, and also I'm a little bit sometimes too 0:07:31.236 --> 0:07:34.876 aware of it and self conscious of it. So, for instance, 0:07:34.916 --> 0:07:39.476 in this album, my song's Snapping Turtle, it is a 0:07:39.516 --> 0:07:42.756 real stream of consciousness, but it is a story and 0:07:42.796 --> 0:07:46.436 they do connect. But it is a very Southern story 0:07:46.996 --> 0:07:49.996 because I go from talking about kids in a Snapping 0:07:49.996 --> 0:07:53.436 Turtle too all of a sudden, we're not hearing about 0:07:53.436 --> 0:07:57.316 a snapping turtle anymore for quite a while, and that's 0:07:57.396 --> 0:07:59.236 kind of a Southern story. And then at the very 0:07:59.316 --> 0:08:01.436 end you wrap it together and it all makes sense, 0:08:01.476 --> 0:08:03.476 and you might have sat on somebody's porch for an 0:08:03.476 --> 0:08:05.996 hour and a half, but you know it's a whole 0:08:06.036 --> 0:08:08.796 cohesive story, but it might take you a minute to 0:08:08.796 --> 0:08:14.116 get there. So I did find myself really leaning into 0:08:14.676 --> 0:08:18.076 Southern storytelling in this album on several songs. 0:08:18.916 --> 0:08:23.316 These are character driven stories often, and the character in 0:08:23.396 --> 0:08:27.476 Snapping Turtle is whether there's the narrator and there's Leanne. 0:08:28.596 --> 0:08:30.956 So when you were writing that, were you writing the 0:08:31.076 --> 0:08:34.836 Leanne part and then the Snapping Turtle which is almost 0:08:34.876 --> 0:08:37.996 an image that starts it. Yeah, how do you put 0:08:37.996 --> 0:08:39.396 those things together in your mind? 0:08:40.716 --> 0:08:45.556 Well, actually, the line I guess that started the song 0:08:45.676 --> 0:08:50.676 Snapping Turtle was something that I actually heard when I 0:08:50.796 --> 0:08:55.956 was maybe twelve or thirteen, where a girl that I 0:08:55.996 --> 0:08:59.476 grew up with actually came to school after we were 0:08:59.716 --> 0:09:04.116 back from summer to tell us, you know, our friend group, 0:09:04.196 --> 0:09:07.756 that she had spent the whole summer in Paris, which 0:09:07.836 --> 0:09:10.996 was Paris, Tennessee, and it was just like a little 0:09:10.996 --> 0:09:15.916 Paris that had an Eiffel Tower and everything. But I 0:09:15.956 --> 0:09:20.516 remember being in college several years later, I was in 0:09:21.116 --> 0:09:25.276 a little short story writing class and that image came 0:09:25.356 --> 0:09:28.236 up to me, and I thought it was really an 0:09:28.276 --> 0:09:37.836 interesting way to think about worldview, maybe economic status, opportunity, fate, 0:09:38.276 --> 0:09:43.036 all these things, just in the fact that what's really 0:09:43.116 --> 0:09:48.676 sad is that my friend back in grade school to 0:09:48.796 --> 0:09:52.836 this day I know, really doesn't know the difference of Paris, 0:09:52.876 --> 0:09:55.996 France and Paris, Tennessee. And it's not coming from a 0:09:56.076 --> 0:10:03.076 judgmental place. It's just saying something really true about where 0:10:03.716 --> 0:10:08.476 I come from and about how I have been trying 0:10:08.516 --> 0:10:14.316 to process us how different people are growing up right 0:10:14.356 --> 0:10:19.956 beside you and have been handed very different hands than others. 0:10:20.716 --> 0:10:23.916 So that line started that many years ago and reappeared 0:10:23.956 --> 0:10:27.436 here in this song. And the snapping turtle line that 0:10:27.556 --> 0:10:30.996 was also a lived experience from childhood. 0:10:32.236 --> 0:10:35.156 When does that snapping turtle? When does that happen? What's 0:10:35.196 --> 0:10:37.876 the realization that you can put those together? 0:10:40.196 --> 0:10:44.196 I think really the moment when I realized that the 0:10:44.316 --> 0:10:52.916 snapping turtle was lee Anne was when I realized the 0:10:52.956 --> 0:10:57.676 protagonist or you know, the narrators I guess purpose in 0:10:57.716 --> 0:11:00.716 that song, which was that they were they were playing 0:11:00.876 --> 0:11:04.156 God when I say, when I raised my hand, I 0:11:04.196 --> 0:11:09.116 brought down the wrath of God himself. You know, I'm 0:11:09.116 --> 0:11:16.196 I'm really really intrigued with, you know, religion, free will, 0:11:16.276 --> 0:11:21.116 but mostly predestination. If I was honest with myself, I 0:11:21.156 --> 0:11:23.916 wasn't a philosophy major because I was going to take 0:11:23.916 --> 0:11:26.636 the LSATs and be a lawyer. I think I was 0:11:26.876 --> 0:11:33.996 obsessed with the question of predestination, and I took every 0:11:34.076 --> 0:11:38.916 course I could to understand more about this because it 0:11:39.036 --> 0:11:42.236 was a really important question for me in the context 0:11:42.236 --> 0:11:44.636 of how I was raised. I was raised Southern Baptist, 0:11:46.156 --> 0:11:50.436 I wasn't raised a Calvinist necessarily, but I was intrigued 0:11:50.476 --> 0:11:52.756 by it. I've always been really weird into doctrine and 0:11:52.796 --> 0:11:56.156 things like that. So the idea that an all knowing 0:11:56.276 --> 0:12:00.996 God would know someone's fate and is said to be 0:12:01.076 --> 0:12:05.076 the creator that has to bother you when you see 0:12:05.316 --> 0:12:06.716 things that don't seem fair. 0:12:07.316 --> 0:12:10.716 There is a line in that song small Towns where 0:12:10.756 --> 0:12:15.116 my mind gets stuck. You grew up in a small town. 0:12:15.156 --> 0:12:18.716 You very much identify still with that town. Tell me 0:12:18.796 --> 0:12:21.956 about that line in the context of your growing up. 0:12:22.796 --> 0:12:29.316 You know, especially around how I moved from talking about 0:12:29.316 --> 0:12:33.276 the snapping turtle to going into le end. The way 0:12:33.476 --> 0:12:39.516 this song kind of folded for me really started when 0:12:39.556 --> 0:12:44.436 I started therapy. A line that didn't make it in 0:12:44.476 --> 0:12:47.396 this song was don't look at me when I'm crying. 0:12:47.876 --> 0:12:50.836 I had this chorus and actual chorus that was in 0:12:50.876 --> 0:12:55.516 this song, and I didn't I scrapped it. But when 0:12:55.556 --> 0:12:59.436 I first started therapy, I wasn't raised in an emotional family. 0:12:59.476 --> 0:13:02.516 You know, we didn't cry. I've gotten a little bit 0:13:02.596 --> 0:13:06.556 better at crying publicly in the last maybe like four 0:13:06.636 --> 0:13:09.636 years of my life. But I remember being in this 0:13:09.716 --> 0:13:14.836 therapy session and she something came, but she had me 0:13:14.916 --> 0:13:18.836 do this thing eft this tapping stuff, and I just 0:13:18.876 --> 0:13:22.436 started crying, and I was so unbelievably embarrassed, and of 0:13:22.476 --> 0:13:27.036 course because instead of allowing myself to be vulnerable, I 0:13:27.116 --> 0:13:30.236 just got angry and I was yelling at this therapist 0:13:30.316 --> 0:13:33.756 and saying like, don't look at me right now, like 0:13:33.836 --> 0:13:36.396 why are you staring at me when I'm doing this? 0:13:37.196 --> 0:13:41.876 And that led me kind of to write this entire 0:13:42.036 --> 0:13:46.156 song because I look at this song as a looking 0:13:46.316 --> 0:13:50.876 back and processing the past and context of my life 0:13:51.676 --> 0:13:52.196 growing up. 0:13:52.276 --> 0:13:54.316 Was the church your first exposure to music? 0:13:55.436 --> 0:13:59.476 Definitely, yeah, I would say the church was was where 0:13:59.516 --> 0:14:02.756 I went to three concerts a week. But there was 0:14:02.796 --> 0:14:07.756 also even though not everyone in my family was musical, 0:14:08.396 --> 0:14:11.876 I think it was a very commonplace that every house 0:14:11.916 --> 0:14:15.556 had a piano and someone in the family could play. 0:14:16.076 --> 0:14:19.156 And I do remember, you know, my aunt Sally could play, 0:14:19.556 --> 0:14:24.436 my brothers could play different ones. And I remember very 0:14:24.476 --> 0:14:27.916 as I was a really small child when my dad 0:14:27.956 --> 0:14:30.996 and his brothers still farm together. They had a fish 0:14:31.036 --> 0:14:33.876 fry at our at our family farm shop and had 0:14:33.916 --> 0:14:37.276 a string band there and that was probably I was, 0:14:37.796 --> 0:14:40.716 you know, three four years old at that time, so 0:14:40.756 --> 0:14:43.396 I've been around it. But church is probably the biggest 0:14:44.236 --> 0:14:45.236 musical influence. 0:14:45.356 --> 0:14:47.196 Now, when you say there were concerts at church, were 0:14:47.196 --> 0:14:49.396 these secular music concerts or were these old you? 0:14:49.476 --> 0:14:49.636 No? 0:14:49.996 --> 0:14:52.076 I just make a joke because I get asked a 0:14:52.116 --> 0:14:53.676 lot of time, like what was your first concert? And 0:14:53.756 --> 0:14:56.476 I said, well, I went to three a week. Yeah, okay, 0:14:56.996 --> 0:14:59.276 oh no, there was never secular music. There wasn't even 0:14:59.316 --> 0:15:02.676 you weren't allowed to have. I didn't grow up in 0:15:02.676 --> 0:15:04.956 a church where you had like a drum set or 0:15:05.236 --> 0:15:08.876 there was nothing like that. They believed that anything passed 0:15:08.916 --> 0:15:12.716 may in organ You might have been carried away by 0:15:13.996 --> 0:15:17.276 the energy, and we wanted to stay focused. 0:15:17.556 --> 0:15:22.236 Okay, when when were you first carried away by the energy? 0:15:22.316 --> 0:15:25.396 What music did you hear that made you think this 0:15:25.476 --> 0:15:26.436 is something I want to do. 0:15:28.516 --> 0:15:31.316 My dad was a big music lover, he still is, 0:15:31.636 --> 0:15:35.596 and being in such a rural area, we spent a 0:15:35.596 --> 0:15:38.516 lot of time in the truck and tractor cabs and 0:15:38.556 --> 0:15:41.676 all that. He loves Super Tramp. You know that song 0:15:41.756 --> 0:15:45.676 take the Long Way Home? Sure, Okay, the harmonica. I 0:15:45.756 --> 0:15:48.996 just remember my dad just cranking that up in his 0:15:49.076 --> 0:15:52.236 old Chevy. So I guess what people are. What I've 0:15:52.316 --> 0:15:55.196 thought of is like classic rock. My dad was really 0:15:55.236 --> 0:15:59.356 into that, and I had a neighbor who was really 0:15:59.396 --> 0:16:05.516 into old country. This one of our landowners wives that 0:16:05.556 --> 0:16:08.876 we took care of as she aged. But she would 0:16:08.876 --> 0:16:11.836 get on her piano and play old Hank Williams and 0:16:12.756 --> 0:16:15.876 Lefty Frizell and different different songs like that for me. 0:16:16.516 --> 0:16:19.516 And that's how I was introduced to old country. 0:16:19.796 --> 0:16:20.636 And did you like it? 0:16:20.996 --> 0:16:24.516 Oh? I loved it. And I remember finding Miss Betty 0:16:24.796 --> 0:16:28.676 was this lady's name, and my job. Since I think 0:16:28.716 --> 0:16:30.996 I was probably about ten years old, I started cleaning 0:16:31.036 --> 0:16:33.596 her house and she lived right across the street from 0:16:33.636 --> 0:16:37.636 my parents. Miss Betty couldn't sing, God bless her. But 0:16:37.796 --> 0:16:40.596 when she'd sit down at that piano and start singing, 0:16:40.796 --> 0:16:43.156 you know, I was walking after midnight, you know, it 0:16:43.236 --> 0:16:45.596 was nice. I loved the song, but Miss Betty couldn't sing. 0:16:45.676 --> 0:16:49.196 So when I found a little CD of some old 0:16:49.236 --> 0:16:53.316 country classics at Walmart, I could not wait to take 0:16:53.396 --> 0:16:56.276 my little CD player over there for Miss Betty. And 0:16:56.476 --> 0:16:58.876 she enjoyed it, and I enjoyed our time a lot 0:16:58.916 --> 0:16:59.356 better too. 0:16:59.916 --> 0:17:02.356 You know, we'll be. 0:17:02.316 --> 0:17:04.716 Back with more from SG Goodman after the break. 0:17:08.796 --> 0:17:13.636 There are some Kentucky writers that right. Character songs. I 0:17:13.636 --> 0:17:15.196 thought of them when I was listening to her out 0:17:15.276 --> 0:17:18.316 like Tom t Hall oh yeah, and Keith Whitley, Who's 0:17:18.996 --> 0:17:21.356 and a little Loretta Lynn. I have to say, oh yeah, 0:17:21.476 --> 0:17:23.996 she's got strong characters in her song. It's usually the narrator. 0:17:24.356 --> 0:17:25.436 Were they influences on. 0:17:25.476 --> 0:17:30.516 You, I mean, of course I would imagine that. I 0:17:30.636 --> 0:17:34.276 deeply appreciate what they do. Yeah, I think when it 0:17:34.316 --> 0:17:39.556 comes to character development, I have to give tribute to 0:17:39.636 --> 0:17:43.876 my writing mentor. His name's del Ray Phillips. He was 0:17:43.916 --> 0:17:48.956 a short story writer Pulitzerprise nominee actually, and I was 0:17:49.036 --> 0:17:51.316 lucky enough to study under him in college and then 0:17:51.476 --> 0:17:56.516 we've remained very good friends. You know. He's the one 0:17:56.516 --> 0:18:01.316 who taught me to really respect your characters. In fact, 0:18:01.796 --> 0:18:05.636 I remember he was a big smoker up until recently. Actually, 0:18:06.396 --> 0:18:10.516 our college ram was on the first floor of this building, 0:18:10.676 --> 0:18:14.516 and he'd go outside and teach us through the window 0:18:15.556 --> 0:18:20.596 while he Jane smoke, okay, And I remember him yelling 0:18:20.596 --> 0:18:24.356 through the window one day that we were not good 0:18:24.436 --> 0:18:27.156 enough writers to kill our characters, and that he better 0:18:27.236 --> 0:18:31.156 not have any papers turned in where somebody killed off somebody. 0:18:31.316 --> 0:18:34.076 He said, you got to earn that wow. And he 0:18:34.156 --> 0:18:36.596 also said something to me that made me think about 0:18:36.676 --> 0:18:41.556 characters differently. He said, when you die, like nobody's going 0:18:41.596 --> 0:18:44.556 to remember your name, but they might remember your characters, 0:18:45.076 --> 0:18:47.276 and that's how people actually live. 0:18:47.156 --> 0:18:51.396 On tell me about the song, Michael told me, it's. 0:18:51.276 --> 0:18:54.756 A special song for me. I lost a kind of 0:18:54.756 --> 0:18:58.636 a father figure called himurried dad, Mike, and he was 0:18:58.916 --> 0:19:03.436 super special to me. And this song actually kind of 0:19:03.436 --> 0:19:07.476 revolves around his death. But who I'm speaking to in 0:19:07.556 --> 0:19:12.036 this song is not my it's actually a close friend 0:19:12.036 --> 0:19:16.636 of mine bandmate, actually co produced this record, someone who 0:19:16.636 --> 0:19:20.556 I've collaborated with for you know, thirteen fourteen years now. 0:19:21.476 --> 0:19:25.516 But at the time that Mike passed away, we were 0:19:25.556 --> 0:19:28.196 about on our second year of not speaking with each other. 0:19:28.236 --> 0:19:31.556 We weren't on speaking terms. We had a little falling out, 0:19:32.036 --> 0:19:34.516 and that wasn't our first falling out. We've gone a 0:19:34.596 --> 0:19:37.796 year without speaking prior to that. So maybe in another 0:19:37.876 --> 0:19:41.116 like five years, will you know, something might happen. We'll 0:19:41.156 --> 0:19:46.396 do that. But it's because he's a chosen brother. Sometimes 0:19:46.436 --> 0:19:50.116 siblings fight and we were just in our moment in 0:19:50.196 --> 0:19:54.076 that time. But when Mike passed away, we reached out 0:19:54.116 --> 0:19:57.876 to each other. And I think sometimes death gives you 0:19:57.916 --> 0:20:02.596 a good reason to put your bullshit aside and say 0:20:02.916 --> 0:20:06.556 I love you and I'm glad we're here together. And 0:20:06.596 --> 0:20:09.756 now look what's happened. You know, the song is on 0:20:09.836 --> 0:20:15.316 the record. Matt was kind enough and wanted to collaborate 0:20:15.396 --> 0:20:19.636 with me again, and I believe in his gifts so much. 0:20:19.676 --> 0:20:22.956 I as going to be a co producer and it's 0:20:22.996 --> 0:20:26.596 been a really great way to reconcile. And now we 0:20:26.676 --> 0:20:27.956 have this to show for it too. 0:20:28.596 --> 0:20:29.276 That's wonderful. 0:20:29.356 --> 0:20:29.716 Yeah. 0:20:29.756 --> 0:20:32.116 Now, I think when you're young, everybody thinks, gee, why 0:20:32.236 --> 0:20:35.436 the Beatles break up so soon? And then anytime you're 0:20:35.436 --> 0:20:37.876 in a creative endeavor with other people, you're like, how 0:20:37.876 --> 0:20:38.996 did they last so long? 0:20:39.396 --> 0:20:42.116 Yeah, well, I think there's something special. You know. A 0:20:42.156 --> 0:20:46.676 friend told me once, She's like, sometimes the only thing 0:20:47.436 --> 0:20:53.116 a person can imagine is having been wronged. Sometimes when 0:20:53.116 --> 0:20:57.916 you don't have the experience of of reconciling with people, 0:20:58.076 --> 0:21:00.596 you can't imagine what's on the other side. Like, it's 0:21:00.716 --> 0:21:07.556 it's safer to remain in hard feelings than it is 0:21:07.636 --> 0:21:12.036 to be vulnerable and imagine what it could be if 0:21:12.036 --> 0:21:16.036 you reconciled. Because sometimes you can't imagine what that would 0:21:16.116 --> 0:21:19.516 look like. That was a part of this album for sure. 0:21:20.356 --> 0:21:21.956 Now you write with him as well? 0:21:22.036 --> 0:21:24.956 Is that Yeah, we've written a few things. He ended 0:21:24.996 --> 0:21:27.556 up out. We were fighting, not in a bad way, 0:21:27.596 --> 0:21:30.676 but you know, we fight all the time. We're both 0:21:30.756 --> 0:21:34.516 really passionate people. But I had a song on the 0:21:34.556 --> 0:21:39.356 album Satellite. He was making suggestions for some the chord 0:21:39.436 --> 0:21:43.836 progression in that song, and I'm pretty hard headed, but 0:21:44.436 --> 0:21:47.636 Matt was right, so he helped me with the music 0:21:47.676 --> 0:21:48.116 on that one. 0:21:48.556 --> 0:21:51.516 Okay, what's your typical writing process? How do you write? 0:21:51.756 --> 0:21:55.596 I wish I knew, I really do. You know a 0:21:55.596 --> 0:21:58.556 few of the songs we've already talked about, they've come 0:21:58.596 --> 0:22:02.476 together over years, and what I've found works best for 0:22:02.596 --> 0:22:07.236 me is to always be willing to just keep notes, 0:22:07.796 --> 0:22:10.356 to not overthink. You know, I don't feel like you 0:22:10.436 --> 0:22:12.956 have to have a song written every day to be 0:22:12.996 --> 0:22:16.196 a songwriter. I don't write like that. Do I write 0:22:16.196 --> 0:22:18.636 every day? I would say I do, But what I 0:22:18.716 --> 0:22:22.556 consider writing every day might be just humming a little 0:22:22.596 --> 0:22:27.436 melody into a recorder or my phone, or writing down 0:22:27.596 --> 0:22:32.556 a word that I think is interesting. And I think 0:22:32.636 --> 0:22:35.236 that allows me to always be in a creative state, 0:22:35.356 --> 0:22:38.596 but as far as having a fully finished product, I 0:22:38.596 --> 0:22:39.476 don't write like that. 0:22:39.796 --> 0:22:42.516 Does there come a point where you've got a collection 0:22:42.556 --> 0:22:45.316 of images things you want to put together and you 0:22:45.356 --> 0:22:48.476 do have to sit down and work. 0:22:48.316 --> 0:22:52.516 It out well, like, for instance, with this album. I 0:22:52.596 --> 0:22:56.796 knew when I knew that I wanted to write about 0:22:56.796 --> 0:22:59.996 Planting by the Signs, and I knew that my goal 0:23:00.316 --> 0:23:03.196 was I didn't want to write a college dissertation. I 0:23:03.236 --> 0:23:07.836 wanted to write songs that have picked apart and looked 0:23:07.836 --> 0:23:13.116 at individually, could stand alone by themself. But I knew 0:23:13.156 --> 0:23:16.996 that I really wanted to try to write a cohesive 0:23:17.876 --> 0:23:20.516 song that would lead back to Planting by the Signs. 0:23:20.556 --> 0:23:22.956 So the way I dealt with that was I read 0:23:23.116 --> 0:23:26.356 everything I could get my hands on. I watched everything 0:23:26.356 --> 0:23:28.276 I could get my hands on, I could talk to 0:23:28.876 --> 0:23:32.516 everywhere I was. I was even well Jason isbel in 0:23:32.676 --> 0:23:37.516 Europe last fall. Late last fall, I was in Scotland 0:23:37.996 --> 0:23:42.196 and I asked the the coffee guys, like you happen 0:23:42.276 --> 0:23:45.916 to know anybody who's into moon planting or planting by 0:23:45.956 --> 0:23:49.396 the Signs around here? And he did, isn't that cool? 0:23:49.516 --> 0:23:49.756 Wow? 0:23:49.916 --> 0:23:53.676 So I went to this, yeah, this little nursery and 0:23:54.236 --> 0:23:59.836 asked around. I knew, even if I couldn't recall, you know, 0:24:00.436 --> 0:24:02.836 every single sign of the zodiac or whatever, if I've 0:24:02.876 --> 0:24:06.236 read enough and just entrenched myself in it, that it 0:24:06.276 --> 0:24:09.956 would come out in my writing. And it did, you know, 0:24:10.916 --> 0:24:14.236 it did, and it wasn't in a natural way. When 0:24:14.276 --> 0:24:17.916 it came time to actually write it, the details were there. 0:24:18.916 --> 0:24:22.276 You do have a song called fire Sign, which I did, 0:24:22.596 --> 0:24:25.876 seems to be the most explicit reference to that kind 0:24:25.916 --> 0:24:28.876 of thinking. How, for example, does it appear in Solitaire, 0:24:28.916 --> 0:24:31.276 which I is probably my favorite song on the album. 0:24:31.396 --> 0:24:32.356 Oh well, thank you? 0:24:33.116 --> 0:24:33.436 Well? 0:24:34.036 --> 0:24:37.836 Have you ever noticed how a deck of cards has 0:24:37.876 --> 0:24:44.356 four suits? Right, there's four seasons. How many weeks are 0:24:44.356 --> 0:24:46.636 in a year. It's how many cards are in a deck. 0:24:47.556 --> 0:24:54.476 It's set up actually to mimic a calendar and your 0:24:54.556 --> 0:24:58.876 experience passing through a year. In order to live by 0:24:58.876 --> 0:25:01.396 the belief of planting by the signs, you have to 0:25:01.436 --> 0:25:05.396 be aware and be able to tell what could possibly 0:25:05.436 --> 0:25:08.836 happen in the future by looking at the past. And 0:25:08.916 --> 0:25:12.156 so so for me, that song is about seasons that 0:25:12.236 --> 0:25:15.396 have passed you. Now, that's the way I would make sense. 0:25:15.196 --> 0:25:18.356 Of it, and there's a beautiful line it's about betting 0:25:18.396 --> 0:25:21.116 against yourself and I don't remember the precise line. What 0:25:21.196 --> 0:25:21.356