1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:10,480 Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. My guests today are two of 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: the leading voices in the fight for environmental justice, advocacy 4 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: for indigenous communities and the protection of their homeland. Paul 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:24,159 Speaker 1: Pasaminho is a human rights and environmental justice advocate. Is 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: also the deputy director of Amazon Watch, a nonprofit organization 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: that works to protect the Amazon rainforest and support indigenous 8 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: peoples in South America. Pasaminho has also worked for Amnesty 9 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: International and directed human rights programs for indigenous communities in 10 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: Mexico and Guatemala. Pasaminho joined Amazon Watch in two thousand 11 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: and seven to oversee its clean Up Ecuador campaign. It 12 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: was during this cleanup campaign that he met Stephen Donziger, 13 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: a human rights and environmental lawyer who has famously been 14 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: fighting the Chevron case for over thirty years. 15 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Stephen Donziger. 16 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 3: Hi I'm Paul Pasiminho. 17 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 4: We met in two thousand and seven when I began 18 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 4: working at Amazon Watch as the I Think Managing director 19 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 4: at the time, and one of the campaigns I was 20 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 4: overseeing was the clean Up Equador campaign. Stephen came into 21 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 4: our offices in San Francisco and shook my hand and said, 22 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 4: it's really great to meet you. You're joining at a 23 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 4: great time. This case is just about to be wrapped up. 24 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 3: We're going to win. 25 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: Famous last words, right, famous last words? And where was 26 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: the case at at that time, Stephen, where was the 27 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: case at? 28 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 2: Well, it was we were in trial in Ecuador and 29 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 2: I completely, all of us completely underestimated how long it 30 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 2: would take to do the case. So the trial started 31 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 2: in two thousand and three. That was four years later. 32 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 2: We were winding down. But you know, Chevron had a 33 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 2: lot of tricks up at sleeve to keep delaying the 34 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 2: trial because they never really wanted the trial to end. 35 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 2: They were very comfortable paying their lawyers lots of money 36 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 2: to keep litigating the case because they knew once it 37 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 2: ended they were going to lose. So, you know, the 38 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 2: case was in a procedural posture where we really had 39 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 2: put in a bunch of evidence, thousands of chemical and 40 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 2: water samples proving their pollution. And at that point they 41 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: started again engaging in all sorts of dirty tricks to 42 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 2: delay the end of the trial. 43 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: So we were on the cusp. 44 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 2: Of ending it and winning it, and we eventually did 45 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: win it, but at that point it would be another 46 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: four more years. 47 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: Now, I want to just clarify a couple of things. 48 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: What year was Caplain shoved into your life? 49 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 2: Caplan appeared in two thousand and nine. The lawsuit was 50 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 2: filed the way back in nineteen ninety three in New York. 51 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 2: Chevron wanted the case moved to Ecuador. They succeeded. That 52 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: took ten years, so the case, the trial began in 53 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 2: Ecuador in two and won, and then we litigated for 54 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: eight years. They were about to lose. They then sued 55 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 2: me in New York under civil of civil rico theory, 56 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 2: and that's when Kaplan came into my life. 57 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: Explain to people how the mechanism of how Caplin is 58 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: injected into this process, meaning you win, they want to 59 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 1: go back to New York and appeal that decision. How 60 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 1: are the captains of the world enabled to function in 61 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: that in that role you want a case, I'm assuming 62 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 1: you're going to go to an appeal, but then the 63 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: gates of hell opened. How were they able to install 64 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: that judge that way? 65 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I believe the whole entry of 66 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 2: Captain into the case was not an accident. I think 67 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 2: it was by design, and I think the way it 68 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 2: happened is Caplan is known for being very pro corporate, 69 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 2: very anti Planist lawyer. It doesn't like lawyers like me. 70 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 2: And I think Chevron's law firm at Gibson, Dunn and 71 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 2: Crutcher steered the case to him from behind the scenes, 72 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: and I think he totally in on it. The case 73 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 2: was not assigned randomly, and WOI la. They sued me 74 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 2: for sixty billion dollars and he's the judge and like 75 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 2: to this day, I don't know the details of how 76 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 2: that happened, other than to say that the case was 77 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 2: not assigned through random lot. Kaplan had overseen a minor 78 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 2: aspect of an action against Joe Berlinger, the filmmaker that 79 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 2: Chevron had filed, and he used the fact that he 80 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: presided over that very minor discovery matter to claim jurisdiction 81 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: over this major, major, major lawsuit they were filing against me. 82 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 2: And I'll say it was against me, but I was 83 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 2: really a stand in for the communities in Ecuador in 84 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 2: the Amazon rainforest who had won the judgment. They were 85 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 2: trying to destroy me so they didn't have to pay 86 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 2: the communities they poisoned. But Kaplan's entry was not an accident. 87 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 2: He's always been a very pro corporate judge, and I 88 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: think it was all part of a design by Chevron. 89 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 1: There was the discussion the notion that you were allowed 90 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 1: to ultimately sue Chevron in any country they did business. Correct. Yes. 91 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: In other words, once we won the judgment and the 92 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 2: amount of ten billion dollars, and it was affirmed on 93 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: appeal by Ecuador Supreme Court, we meaning the communities and 94 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:14,799 Speaker 2: their lawyers had a right to go try to see 95 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: Chevron's assets wherever they existed, anywhere in the world. As 96 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 2: people know, Chevron is a huge global company. They have 97 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 2: assets and dozens and dozens of countries. The irony is 98 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 2: the one place where we were legally barred from pursuing 99 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 2: their assets is right here at home in the United States, 100 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,239 Speaker 2: because Judge Caplan, at the outset of the case issued 101 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 2: what to me is a baseless nationwide injunction. 102 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 4: What's fascinating about the Caplain Gibson Dunns situation is it's 103 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 4: similar to what we're seeing in the Greenpeace case. The 104 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 4: process of filing the RICO charges preemptively against Stephen and 105 00:05:54,800 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 4: the Ecuadorians. One, blocked the Ecuadorian people from seeking access 106 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 4: to justice in the United States. It basically served to 107 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 4: make the indigenous people and the communities invisible. That's what 108 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 4: they've done in the Green Peace case. 109 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: Two. 110 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 4: And what they did was before the judgment was finalized 111 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 4: in Ecuador, they sued to prevent a judge in the 112 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 4: United States from looking at the Ecuadorian judgment. Now, any 113 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 4: fair judge would have looked at Chevron's claims and said, well, 114 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 4: they've just got a judgment in Ecuador. 115 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 3: Presumably they're going to bring it to the United States 116 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 3: to enforce it. 117 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 4: At that time, you can bring up your claims of 118 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 4: fraud or anything else, and a judge will make a 119 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 4: determination is that legit or is it fraud, and then 120 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 4: the Ecuadorians can either get their payday or not. But 121 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 4: by suing preemptively under Rico and going after Stephen, they 122 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 4: said these people don't matter, this is a fraud and 123 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 4: we shouldn't ever look at the evidence of what happened 124 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 4: in Ecuador. And that was the caplain piece that is 125 00:06:55,320 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 4: so diabolical, prevented the real crime of Chevron's admitted contamination 126 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,359 Speaker 4: from seeing the light of day. In the US courtroom, 127 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 4: which was the Gibson Dunn's strategy. And that's what they 128 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 4: did in the green Peace case too. Instead of going 129 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 4: after Standing Rock, instead of saying these are the indigenous 130 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 4: peoples that have protested, these are the people that have 131 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 4: caused the harm quote unquote in their eyes to energy 132 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 4: transfer partners. They targeted green Peace, who had virtually nothing 133 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 4: to do with it, and they make the Indigenous people invisible, 134 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 4: which is part of Gibson Dune's strategy and one of 135 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 4: the reasons that they should be identified as a diabolical 136 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 4: law firm. 137 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: Now, Gibson Done wasn't involved in the Dakota. 138 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 4: They were the lead lawyers and the trial against green Peace. 139 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: Oh they were. And yes, so you're saying that Gibson 140 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: done this. So this is you only name two cases, 141 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: not that you need to name more, but you name 142 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: Dakota and you name Ecuador. Is this their playbook? Do 143 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: they do a lot of this kind of thing? 144 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 3: It is their playbook. And that's just two cases. 145 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 4: They actually pro bono have been taking a case to 146 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 4: try to undermine the Indian Child Welfare Act. So this 147 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 4: is a pattern of this law firm. There's actually a 148 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 4: report people can read on the website license to spill 149 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 4: dot org, which goes through all of these what they 150 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,239 Speaker 4: call legal thuggery, and judges have called them legal thugs, 151 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 4: not just people that they've targeted. 152 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 3: This is their pattern, this is what they've built their reputation. 153 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: Are they're assuming that they have a better chance at 154 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: achieving their goals now that Trump is in office. Is 155 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: that a part of that playbook as well. 156 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 4: Well, certainly in the energy transfer case because he's buddies 157 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 4: with the CEO of Energy Transfer. 158 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: Now what did they say? What did they maintain that 159 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: they proved in court that Greenpeace had done or orchestrated 160 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: or organized What was the damage or whatever? It was defamation? 161 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: How can you avoid a conversation about environmental disaster without 162 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: the perception you're going to talk down about somebody? But 163 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,320 Speaker 1: they wasn't defamation? Was that the main complaint? Were there 164 00:08:58,320 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: other things they said that they did? 165 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 4: There was defamation, trespass, and I believe was property destruction. 166 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: What was the property that was destroyed? 167 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 4: Well, all of basically everything that took place during the 168 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 4: Standing Rock protests they said Greenpeace was responsible for. 169 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 3: So at some. 170 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 4: Point during the protests things were set on fire. Green 171 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 4: Peace sent lock boxes allowing people to essentially chain themselves 172 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 4: to equipment to prevent that equipment from operating, which delayed 173 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 4: their work, and then they were eventually cut off and 174 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 4: were continued. That was really the only thing green Peace did. 175 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 4: But they said because Greenpeace did that, everything that happened 176 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 4: during the entire protests at Standing Rock was Greenpiace's responsibility, 177 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 4: including Greenpeace International, green Pieace, Inc. And Greenpeace Fund, three 178 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 4: different entities, one of which didn't have any staff in 179 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 4: North Dakota, and the other which didn't have any staff 180 00:09:58,720 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 4: at all. 181 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 3: Fund. 182 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 4: They're not activists, they fund other groups doing work. 183 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: And Standing Rock refers to a reservation of Indigenous. 184 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 4: People, Yes, exactly, their traditional lands were violated by the 185 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 4: Dakota and still are by the Dakota Access Pipeline. 186 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: How is that so it. 187 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 4: Crossed over what the Standing Rocks Sioux tribe believe, according 188 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 4: to their treaties is their territory. Now the reservation line 189 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 4: which was accepted by the state is slightly different, but 190 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 4: that doesn't negate that in the eyes of the Standing 191 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 4: Rocks Sioux and in the eyes of the United Nations, 192 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 4: this is all Indigenous land and indigenous water that they're protecting, 193 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 4: and so the pipeline crossed and violated their territory. It spilled, 194 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 4: it polluted their lands. It was done without their consent, 195 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 4: and when they protested, it delayed the construction of the 196 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 4: pipeline until Trump came into power, and then he gave 197 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 4: the go ahead and it went through. Ultimately, the pipeline 198 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 4: is operating. Energy Transfer has made billions of dollars. But 199 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 4: they wanted to send a message to Standing Rock, to 200 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 4: indigenous people's, to environmental justice activists, and to angeos like 201 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 4: Greenpeace that they don't want to accept this kind of 202 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 4: protest against the fossil fuel industry. And that's what that 203 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 4: case was about. And now it's six hundred and sixty 204 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 4: I believe million dollars and there's a trial. There's a 205 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 4: hearing actually today right after we finished talking about the amount, 206 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 4: because it's clearly an absurd amount, and Greenpeace has been 207 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:36,719 Speaker 4: requesting that the judge reevaluate that award and reduce it 208 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 4: because it's absurd on its face, but also it's well 209 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 4: above the damages that were even claimed by Energy Transfer. 210 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: Is the entity that's been of green Peace that they're 211 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 1: referring to when they litigation. Is it green Peace of US, 212 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: Greenpeace North America? Which exactly which green piece is it? 213 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 4: In the United States? There are two entities for Greenpeace. 214 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 4: There's green Pieace Incorporated and green Piece Fund five one 215 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 4: C three and five one, And so green Peace Fund 216 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 4: just redirects funds to Greenpeace and to other environmental activities. 217 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:09,839 Speaker 1: Is it's safe to assume from what you and I 218 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 1: have discussed in recent weeks that they're facing potential bankruptcy. 219 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 4: Absolutely? Yeah, it's six hundred and sixty million dollars. 220 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: But that doesn't apply to other green Piece. 221 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 4: It applies to green Peace Inc. In the US and 222 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 4: green Peace Fund in the US that's collectively referred to 223 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 4: as Greenpeace US eight, but also green Peace International. 224 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: Oh, they are going after Internetional. 225 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 3: Yes, which was also defendant in that case. 226 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I thought it was just the 227 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: restricted to the US only and therefore if they went 228 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 1: bankrupt it wouldn't affect their international funds. But the international 229 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 1: was siddered as well. 230 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 3: Yes, and green Peace Inc. 231 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 4: And Greenpeace Fund also helped support the global green movement 232 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 4: of green Peace that the various Greenpeace entities because they're 233 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 4: the largest body there, So if they're damaged, it does 234 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 4: damage the entire movement. 235 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: So my question becomes, is it safe to assume that 236 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: in the Ecuador case is green Peace they dumped it 237 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: all on one guy, as opposed to in Dakota they 238 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 1: dumped it on a company. They were always looking for 239 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: a scapegoat, someone to blame, and so as Greenpeace in 240 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: the United States those two entities and also internationally, is 241 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: the fall guy in the Dakota case. Was Donziger alone 242 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 1: or was there another organization, a similar organization like Greenpeace 243 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: involved in the Ecuador case. 244 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the way it is. Donzinger is the green 245 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 4: pieace in this case. Because one of the things Stephen 246 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 4: was most successful at doing was raising financial support for 247 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 4: the Chevron case. He continued to be even after the 248 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 4: Rico judgment in order to pursue that enforcement that we 249 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 4: mentioned in other countries, right, which is part of the 250 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 4: reason not only was he targeting the Rico case, but 251 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 4: the subsequent contempt of court attacks that led to his 252 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 4: house arrest and incarceration. Those were to prevent him from 253 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 4: moving forward, raising some to keep trying to enforce the 254 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 4: Ecuador judgment, which is valid anywhere in the world outside 255 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 4: of the United States, and the other thing that that 256 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 4: was the challenge obviously for Gibson Dunn is Steven's the 257 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 4: only one based in the US, so they could try 258 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 4: all they want to go after the Ecuadorians and their 259 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 4: lawyers based in Ecuador. But Kaplan has no jurisdiction there, 260 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 4: there's nothing he could do. The person he could target 261 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 4: was Stephen. But one of the other elements of that 262 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 4: Rico case was targeting Steven's allies, not necessarily by making 263 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 4: them plaintiffs, by identifying them like Amazon Watch. I was 264 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 4: served at my home as a non party co conspirator. 265 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 4: So were their journalists, journalists that worked on the case, bloggers, 266 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 4: other NGOs, shareholder activists, all targeted during discovery as co conspirators, 267 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 4: and we had to go Amazon Watch into court in 268 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 4: San Francisco to defend ourselves against their absurd subpoenas. All 269 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 4: of our documents for that point almost twenty years. They 270 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 4: were trying to get us to have to turn over, 271 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 4: which is really meant to intimidate, like a slapsuit and 272 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 4: scare us into dropping out of the case. So these 273 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 4: to send us boxes of legal documents weekly saying if 274 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 4: you continue to work on this case, you're going to 275 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 4: be in violation of federal law. We have a lawsuit 276 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 4: against Stephen Donzinger trying to intimidate us. So at the 277 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 4: end of the case, I dumped all of those boxes 278 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 4: there at their San Francisco offices and left them there 279 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 4: in their waiting room. 280 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: How did that work? 281 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, they weren't too happy that day. I think it 282 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 4: was like forty five boxes. 283 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: Paul Passamino and Stephen Donziger. If you enjoy conversations about 284 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: the environment and environmental activism, check out my twenty fifteen 285 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 1: conversation with Antonia Hujas about her reporting on the deep 286 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: Water Horizon disaster in the Gulf of Mexico. 287 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 5: There are places like the bottom of the ocean where 288 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 5: natural releasing oil actually lives over thousands of years in 289 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 5: harmony with the environment. What this industry has done is 290 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 5: taken a natural resource and turned it into a weapon 291 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 5: of mass destruction. So I say, do we really want 292 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 5: them because they've done such a bang up job with oil? 293 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 5: Do we really want to give them the wind and 294 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 5: the sun? Do we really want them doing alternative energy? 295 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 5: So my answer is no. 296 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Antonio Jujas go 297 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Paul 298 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: Passimino and Stephen Donzigger talk about the similarity between the 299 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: Chevron case in Ecuador and the current green Peace case 300 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: in North Dakota and their impact on indigenous lands. I'm 301 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin, and this is Here's the Thing. An unfortunate 302 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: truth facing environmental and human rights activists fighting big corporations 303 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: is legal retaliation. Many of these lawsuits are designed to intimidate, silence, 304 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: or exhaust activists and stifle their freedom of speech. The 305 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: legal term is called a slapsuit, which stands for strategic 306 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: lawsuits against public participation. I wanted to know more about 307 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: how these lawsuits worked and whether any states in the 308 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: US had protections against them. 309 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 2: A slap suit is very simply a lawsuit designed to 310 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 2: intimidate in silence someone from expressing their views, rather than 311 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 2: to actually litigate meritorious legal claims. It's essentially a powerful entity, 312 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 2: like a corporation in this case Chevron, or a government 313 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 2: a municipality, uses the process of the law to so 314 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,520 Speaker 2: burden the target that they can't even keep up, and 315 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 2: they just bow out and stop advocate even if the 316 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 2: lawsuit never gets resolved. So it's a law. It's really 317 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 2: a weaponization of the legal procedure to intimidate and silence 318 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 2: your opponent. It's illegal, it violates the First Amendment, but 319 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 2: far too many corporations still use it and judges let 320 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 2: it happen because I think half the judges don't even 321 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 2: know what it is. So that's a slapsuit. It's designed 322 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 2: to shut people up. 323 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: So it's not a federal statute, it's it's a state 324 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: by stated. 325 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 2: No, it can be I'm sorry. A slap suit can 326 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 2: be brought under federal law or state law, or any 327 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 2: any law. 328 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: It was the claim of a slapsuit Paul, brought by 329 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: Greenpeace's lawyers in accordance with what happened in North Dakota. 330 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, so Energy Transfer First tried to sue green Peace 331 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,639 Speaker 4: in federal court and it was thrown out because it 332 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 4: was so obviously a slap But the problem is in 333 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 4: North Dakota there's no anti slap legislation protecting people like 334 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 4: green Peace or entities like green Peace from these kinds 335 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 4: of suits. There's actually legislation being proposed, hopefully this Congress 336 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,959 Speaker 4: to have federal anti slap legislation that would have protected 337 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 4: greenpeace in a state like North Dakota, but only some 338 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 4: states have those laws on the books. California actually has 339 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 4: a slap back statute that says that if you are slapped, 340 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 4: and you can prove that you are slapped, you can 341 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 4: actually go after the slap fur and get them to 342 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 4: pay for having brought a frivolous lawsuit against you. It's 343 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 4: very rarely used, but some cases. Some states are seeing 344 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 4: this problem and taking action. But we need federal protection 345 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 4: so that they can't just forum shop like they did 346 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 4: in North Dakota. And you know, if we get into 347 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 4: the case in North Dakota, it's absurd on its face. 348 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 4: There's not a single person listening to this podcast who 349 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 4: would sit in that courtroom and not realize that that 350 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 4: was a sham trial. It was a complete joke. There 351 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 4: was no justice happening there. And that's the scary thing 352 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:57,479 Speaker 4: when you have a rich litigant like Energy Transfer or 353 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 4: Chevron and lawyers like Gibson dun that are willing to 354 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 4: play dirty in North Dakota or in Kaplan's core. 355 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: Would you say is it comparable that I don't know 356 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: the facts of this in terms of what was spilled 357 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: or what damage was caused by energy transfer. But is 358 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: it safe to say that, just as the indigenous people 359 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: of Ecuador were damaged by the water pollution Texico or Chevron, 360 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: whoever was responsible for that pollution, was there a similar 361 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: victim of that in the energy transfer case? Was there leakage? 362 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: Was there damage? Was there toxicity? 363 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 4: Yes, the pipeline has leaked already and construction caused environmental damage. 364 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 4: And when you add what it's pumping and being burned, 365 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 4: the destruction of our climate is much worse because of 366 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 4: the amount of oil that continues to flow from North 367 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 4: Dakota through the Dakota Access Pipeline to be refined and burned. 368 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 4: But the sacred sites, the lands, the rights, the water, 369 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,639 Speaker 4: all that area in North Dakota has been abused and 370 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 4: violated by energy transfer Endicota pipeline, and it's still happening 371 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 4: to this day. The Standing Rock Zoo Tribe is still 372 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 4: in court fighting against the Dakota Access Pipeline and energy transfer, 373 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 4: but that wasn't even brought up in this case because again, 374 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 4: this is about invisibilizing the indigenous people and targeting another 375 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 4: entity and trying to punish them. 376 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 2: These cases. The similarity between the Greenpeace case in North 377 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 2: Dakota and the Chevron problem in Ecuador. They both have 378 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 2: two fundamental components. One is massive in case of Ecuador, 379 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,400 Speaker 2: massive environmental pollution the case of North Dakota leaky pipeline. 380 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 2: But equally is important in both cases is the desecration 381 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 2: of indigenous ancestral lands and the violations of indigenous cultural 382 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 2: rights and the uprooting of really decades centuries of you 383 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 2: know of practices by indigenous peoples and energy transfer didn't 384 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,959 Speaker 2: give a flying hoot about the land that the Sandy 385 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 2: rockcho Sandy Rock Sioux Tribe has in North Dakota. They 386 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 2: just ram their pipeline right over it. And just as 387 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 2: in Chevron and Ecuador, really did not care about the 388 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 2: indigenous peoples in the Northern Amazon. They just built all 389 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 2: these waste pits and oil operations and dump stuff into 390 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,199 Speaker 2: rivers and streams that people were drinking out of. And 391 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 2: it's the same deep arrogance by corporations toward indigenous peoples 392 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,360 Speaker 2: that I think both that outrageous. People like Paul and I. 393 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 1: Just at a curiosity, is there a terminus in the 394 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: country for this pipeline. Does it end yea in some 395 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: midsection of the countries that go all over down to Louisiana. 396 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 2: It starts way in the top of North Dakota in 397 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 2: the Bakan oil fields and crosses multiple states, and it terminates. 398 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 2: The terminus is in Illinois on the Mississippi River. So 399 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 2: the ideas of the oil flows from North Dakota down 400 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 2: to the river, it's loaded onto barges, it's taken down 401 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 2: to the Gulf of me for either refining or export. 402 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: Who is I'm always curious in terms of my ceaseless 403 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: hope for some heroism in terms of enforcement appointments, which, 404 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: of course that's a dead issue now with Trump. But 405 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: members of Congress, members of the Senate, anybody beyond NGOs 406 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: and your colleagues and other organizations. Who are people who 407 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: you think are sensitive to your issues in the government now? 408 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: Who are political leaders and the Senator of the House 409 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: that you have their ear. 410 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 2: Well, there's not a lot, honestly, But I would say 411 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 2: look on the health side. Jim McGovern, representative from Massachusetts 412 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 2: human rights champion, is the only member of Congress ever 413 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 2: who have visited Chevron's cancer zone and equator, he's really 414 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 2: led so many other members and caring about this issue, 415 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 2: you know. And then others including Sheldon Whitehouse, Ed Markey, 416 00:23:54,920 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Warren, you know, Pat Leahy retired, was very helpful 417 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 2: when he was in office, Barack Obama when he was 418 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 2: a senator way back. 419 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 1: In the day. 420 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 2: So we've had champions in the Congress for this particular cause. 421 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 2: But if you're looking for like a real environmental champion 422 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 2: in the Congress, it's difficult to find. 423 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: To be frank, they might have the sympathy, but they 424 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 1: don't have a voice for it right now. 425 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 2: Well, I think that the structure of the Congress in 426 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,479 Speaker 2: our political system is in my opinion, I think it's 427 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 2: been so degraded over the last fifteen twenty years by 428 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 2: corporate money that it's very hard to get any of 429 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 2: these individuals to form enough of a critical mass of 430 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 2: people to really get anything significant done. It's like you 431 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 2: have a lone voice here and a lone voice there, 432 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 2: and it's very hard to get movement on a lot 433 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 2: of these issues now in the Congress, and particularly hard 434 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 2: under Trump for obvious reasons. 435 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 3: There's two people to add in there. 436 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 4: One Jamie Raskin is the lead on that anti slap 437 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 4: legislation that I talked about. And the other thing I 438 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 4: think is important to say, and I know Steven's not 439 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 4: going to say this himself, but his representative, Jerry Nadler, 440 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 4: didn't respond to a single call. We sent him thousands 441 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 4: of emails when Steven was under house arrest. He's walking 442 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 4: distance from him. Did he send a staff person to visit? 443 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 4: Did he respond no? 444 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 3: For years? Nothing? 445 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: And why do you think that is somebody who's been 446 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 1: typically on average or reliable colleague of your concerns. Why 447 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: do you think he turned around and ran and. 448 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,479 Speaker 2: Hit I think that it had to do with his 449 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 2: lack of courage. I think is a lot of it's personal. 450 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 2: And also it turns out that his son is a 451 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: major lawyer, Gibson Dunn, the Dingo you know, Gibson Done. 452 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 2: Is a lot of lawyers there donate money to Nadler, 453 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 2: and I don't think he wanted to know they were 454 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 2: making a lot of money off attacking me. But again, 455 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 2: it really shows a lack of courage, you know, lack 456 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 2: of integrity. I was very disappointed in Jerry Nadler. I mean, 457 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 2: Alec I was trying to get support in Congress, and 458 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 2: I was detained in my apartment and I can't say 459 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 2: the number of Congress persons and said, well, what about 460 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 2: what's Nadler doing? Like if Nadler, who's if my own 461 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 2: guy wouldn't do anything? They were like, well why should 462 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 2: I do anything? So it really cost me. It's a 463 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 2: lot of support the fact that Jerry wouldn't move on it, 464 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 2: but ultimately others did move despite Jerry and help me 465 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 2: a lot. 466 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: Paul, what's next in terms of are we at the 467 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: stage now where the appeal of the decision against Greenpeace 468 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: is coming or is it going to be a while? 469 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 4: Well, like I said, today, there's a hearing about the 470 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 4: award amount, so we'll find out whether or not it's 471 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 4: going to be adjusted or will still remain. 472 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: At single or judge would adjust that. 473 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 4: I'm out yes, in this case, it could be Judge Gion. 474 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,400 Speaker 4: This is a name who is as he said himself, 475 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 4: I thought I was going to be handling divorce cases. 476 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:54,959 Speaker 4: I never thought I'd have a case like this. So 477 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 4: he's way in over his head on this. Then it 478 00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 4: will be appealed for sure, but that will go to 479 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 4: the North Dakota Supreme. 480 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: Court, you think they're in the bag for energy transfer. 481 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 3: Well, they have not proven very helpful. 482 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 4: For example, during the trial, we were trying to get 483 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 4: access to send the video and the audio out to 484 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 4: the world so everyone could witness what was happening here, 485 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 4: and the North Kota Supreme Court denied the Washington Post, 486 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 4: major news outlets requests just get access to the live 487 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 4: stream of the trial. They want this to be done 488 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 4: in the shadows. This is the North Dakota Supreme Court. 489 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 4: So I don't have a lot of faith that there's 490 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 4: going to be a good judgment coming down from them. 491 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 1: Who is in possession of that footage the state? 492 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 4: You have to pay what is it, Stephen, twenty thousand 493 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 4: dollars if you want to buy the trends, if you 494 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 4: want to buy the transcript of what happened in that courtroom, 495 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 4: which is why Stephen and I and others were there 496 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 4: every day taking notes to have our own accounting of 497 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 4: what happened in order for the truth to come. 498 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: Were you were allowed to release your note? 499 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 4: We were, we were, But you know, trying to write 500 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 4: that fast and capture every word, it's quite a challenge. 501 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 2: Look, normally a trial has a court reporter and it's public, 502 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 2: especially post COVID, like a lot of trials you can 503 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 2: watch on zoom, I would say, especially at State Court 504 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 2: like this energy transfer went and the Gibson dun lawyers 505 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 2: went out of their way to prevent people from watching 506 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,919 Speaker 2: this trial. I mean it is unbelievable, for example, that 507 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 2: there's a live fee of the proceedings but they kept 508 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 2: at private and a journalist, say in Washington to cover 509 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 2: the trial had to travel all the way to Bismarck, 510 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 2: North Dakota and the dead of winter and sit in 511 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 2: court for three weeks and it really limited the coverage, 512 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 2: limited the scrutiny, and that's what it was designed to do. 513 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,479 Speaker 2: What's aggravating. I get why Energy Chanser wanted to shroud 514 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 2: it in secret. See they're embarrassed, you know, they want 515 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 2: to go after green Peace quietly. What is more mystifying 516 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 2: to me is why the judge went along with it. 517 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 2: But again we're seeing sort of a mini version of 518 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 2: Kaplan in the green Peace trial in terms of his 519 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 2: willingness to just give the big fossil fuel company what 520 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: it wants to go after, you know, an activist group 521 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 2: that was fighting, you know, fighting the abuses that were 522 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 2: being visited upon indigenous people. So it's very disappointing. You know, 523 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 2: not every judge is bad. Let me be clear, right, 524 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 2: most judges are not bad, you know, but I think 525 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 2: Gibson Doune is expert at finding those judges when they 526 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 2: bring these types of cases, who are going to facilitate them. 527 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: Paul Pasimino and Stephen Donziger. If you're enjoying this conversation, 528 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the 529 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 1: Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify, or wherever you get 530 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: your podcasts. When we come back, Paul Pasimino and Stephen 531 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: Donziger talk about how the current Trump administration's policies will 532 00:29:51,800 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: affect future slapsuits, climate activists, and environmental legislation. I'm Alec 533 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Stephen Donziger 534 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: traveled to Ecuador to represent indigenous communities. The plaintiffs were 535 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: accusing Texaco and their parent company, Chevron, of severe environmental 536 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: damage and pollution. This lawsuit continued for thirty years, leading 537 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: to Chevron suing Donziger in the United States for fraud 538 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: and racketeering. The lawsuit culminated with Donziger's disbarment and a 539 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: two year house arrest in his Manhattan apartment. I first 540 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: spoke with Stephen Donziger on the podcast almost ten years 541 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: ago about the Chevron case. In March of twenty sixteen, 542 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: I was curious for an update on how things stood 543 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: for him now and what his career is focused on today. 544 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 2: I had no idea, just as a frame of reference 545 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 2: at that point, no idea, not in my wildest imagination, 546 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 2: not in my most you know, you game out negative scenarios, right, 547 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 2: you're going up against all. I never thought such a 548 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 2: thing could possibly happen. It was a shock to me 549 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 2: and my family. My son at the time was thirteen, 550 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 2: and he came home one day and his dad had 551 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 2: an ankle brace and couldn't leave the apartment. And you know, 552 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:27,840 Speaker 2: I thought it did last a week. It lasted two 553 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 2: years and two months. So, you know, we had to adjust, 554 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 2: and we made a couple of vows, my wife and I, 555 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 2: my wife, Laura Miller and I. One vow was that 556 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 2: we would not let them steal our happiness, but we 557 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 2: would maintain within the walls of our homes joy and 558 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 2: we wouldn't just obsess over this and talk about it 559 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 2: all the time. We would live continue to live to 560 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 2: the extent that we could. And we also refused to 561 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 2: let a trauma because it was very traumatic turn into 562 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 2: a pathology. We're like, we're not going to let that happens. 563 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 2: And even though we had to sort of endure a 564 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 2: lot of pain, I think in the end of the day, 565 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 2: we grew from it and got bigger, better and stronger. 566 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 2: And one of the reasons is Paul posse Minho sitting 567 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 2: here on this podcast, really kept the cause alive in 568 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 2: the environmental community, and many other people stepped up, you 569 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 2: know you being among them, Alec Roger Waters, another one, 570 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 2: Susan Sarandon, and just the ecuador and diaspora in New York. 571 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 2: I got huge support. I had people coming by our 572 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 2: two bedroom apartment almost every day to visit or to 573 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 2: express support or to have dinner. My wife and I 574 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 2: were like laughing because like our social life ironically got 575 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 2: so much better when I was detained, because everyone wanted 576 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 2: to come talk to us and see me and find 577 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 2: out what was happening. But the crazy part is the 578 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 2: maxim penalty I could get under captain's contempt, charged with 579 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 2: six months in prison, I served over four times that 580 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 2: amount before I could even get a trial at home. 581 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 2: And when I told the judge that Caplin appointed Judge Prescott, 582 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 2: I said, you got to let me free because I've 583 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 2: already served over four times my sentence. And she's like, actually, 584 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 2: you are free. She gave me this Kafka esque response, 585 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 2: you are free. I let you go home. You're not 586 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 2: in jail, and all I did was impose some conditions 587 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 2: on you. So she called my two year, two month 588 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 2: home detention freedom And you know, that's sort of how 589 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 2: they tried to justify it legally. But right now we're well, 590 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 2: I mean moving on. I'm writing a book, doing some speaking. 591 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 2: My son's in college, he's doing great. You know, we're good. 592 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 2: But it has made a huge dent in aspects of 593 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 2: our life that can never be recovered. Right, what else 594 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 2: do you work? 595 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: Are there similar? I mean a country under Trump? This 596 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: country under Trump? Is it seems like every day, you know, 597 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:04,239 Speaker 1: this something to be dismayed about and upset about. Do 598 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: you feel like this is the time we're going to 599 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: see more of this kind of thing? Are you going 600 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: to see corporations moving toward slap and other kinds of 601 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: activities on a greater scale in the coming three and 602 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: a half years. 603 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 2: I do so this is my quick take on that 604 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,760 Speaker 2: the slap threat comes from both government and private corporations. 605 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 2: We're seeing more and more of it from government. I mean, 606 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 2: it existed prior to Trump, but it's intensified greatly with 607 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 2: the politicization of the Department of Justice, you know, slapping 608 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 2: political opponents of Trump, crazy cases happening, investigations of climate 609 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 2: after this and that sort of thing. But you know, 610 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 2: if you look at what happened to me back in 611 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, you look at what's happening, you know, to Greenpeace, 612 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 2: you look at all of the people Chevron tried to 613 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 2: sweep up in the attack on me, including Paul and 614 00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 2: Amazon Watch. I think we are seeing a real danger 615 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 2: out there that this is going to happen more and more. 616 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 2: All we can do is keep talking about it, keep 617 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 2: educating when people ask me what do they do if 618 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,759 Speaker 2: they get slapped. I just spoke last night, by the way, 619 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,839 Speaker 2: to a group of animal rights activists who are you know, 620 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,240 Speaker 2: rescuing animals from poultry farms. 621 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: You know that are whatever. 622 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 2: I mean, It's not my world so much, except that 623 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 2: these people are facing enormous slap attacks from like Purdue 624 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 2: and some of these poultry companies, And what I tell 625 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 2: people is A, don't be intimidated. B make sure you 626 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 2: have a good legal team. C Build solidarity, and DE 627 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 2: build your own power. You know a lot of people 628 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 2: who get hit with these cower because they don't know 629 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 2: who to turn to. And they got to look at 630 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 2: this battle as a multi front battle, a multi platform 631 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 2: advocacy exercise. You know, as a lawyer, I never really 632 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 2: thought of my Oh, I'm just a lawyer. I'm going 633 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 2: to solve the equitor problem in the four walls of 634 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 2: the courtroom. Never thought that way. I'm like big oil company, 635 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 2: huge money, huge power. My clients have nothing but their 636 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,280 Speaker 2: moral claims and their you know, their right to life. 637 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 2: And we are going to raise hell about this in 638 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 2: every corner of the world that we can that will 639 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 2: listen to us, through the media, through social media, through shareholders, 640 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 2: through the state attorney generals who can investigate chevrons. So 641 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 2: it's very important that when people deal with these slabs, 642 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 2: they build broad based advocacy campaigns to beat them back, 643 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 2: and they really take the offensive and go after the 644 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 2: entities that are bringing them and for that you need 645 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 2: you know, you need a team of people, good lawyers 646 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 2: and the like. But you can people can build this. 647 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 2: So it's very important to fight back. But really look 648 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 2: at it as a broad based effort involving lots of people, 649 00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 2: lots of angles. So these companies or law firms like 650 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 2: get in this case Gibson dumb which by the way, 651 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 2: Chevron used against me in energy transfers using the same 652 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 2: law firm against Greenpeace that they also pay a price. 653 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 2: You know, they're in it for the money. 654 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, they make. 655 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 2: I mean, I can't even tell you the hundreds of 656 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 2: millions of dollars of fees that Gibson done is charged 657 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 2: Chevron and energy Transfer and energy transfer case has gone 658 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,280 Speaker 2: on eight years. My case has gone on fifteen years. 659 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 2: These are the biggest fees this firm has ever collected. 660 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 1: They don't want to end. 661 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 2: They don't want it to end. 662 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, and they need. 663 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 1: To be called out. Now, Paul, let me ask you. 664 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 1: There's slapsuits and your name is Slapsuit. Where the villain 665 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: with the energy transfer if you will, or the Chevron 666 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: where they lost where they were challenging this. Was there 667 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: any big cases you know of were they lost. 668 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,760 Speaker 4: Oh sure, There's a case called the Weed nine, which 669 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 4: was a case brought against local activists I believe in 670 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 4: Oregon who were fighting a company to try protect the 671 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 4: rights to their water and they were slapped for a 672 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 4: conspiracy alleged conspiracy against this corporation, and they fought and 673 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 4: won at the case thrown out. And there are multiple 674 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 4: cases like that. Sum Devin Nunez cow right, this was 675 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 4: the Twitter a fake Twitter account. Devin Nunez slapped him 676 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 4: for making jokes about it, and that case was thrown out. 677 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 3: So at times, when this comes. 678 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 4: Before a judge who's reasonable, you have a chance to win, 679 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 4: but you've already had to defend yourself. So it's done 680 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 4: part of its job just by being able to bring 681 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 4: the slapsuit. But I did want to add that the 682 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 4: thing about Trump now is that free speech, as we 683 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 4: all know, is completely under attack. It's being literally criminalized. 684 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 4: So this unholy alliance between a federal government that will 685 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 4: make speech illegal and in corporations who will sue on 686 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 4: top of that to say, yeah, what you did was 687 00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 4: illegal even according to the government, We're going to sue 688 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 4: you on top of that more money. So when Greenpeace 689 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 4: locks down a protest or stops a bank from operating 690 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,879 Speaker 4: by protesting in front without using any violence or any 691 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 4: property destruction that can be determined illegal, and then that 692 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,919 Speaker 4: bank is going to go and sue those activists for 693 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 4: stopping their operations and prevent them from the next protest. 694 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,839 Speaker 1: You can't rule it anything with this administration. Yeah, no 695 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: matter how nefarious and amount of complicated and kind of insane, 696 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,080 Speaker 1: you can't rule it at it. And I'm thinking they're 697 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 1: going to get closer and closer and closer to you know, 698 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 1: sequestering and corralling people in terms of their rights, to 699 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: where they're going to declare martial law in order to 700 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 1: kill the election in twenty twenty eight. 701 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 2: Where this is really moving, and I think what we 702 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 2: have to be most concerned about, it's already started. It's 703 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 2: trying to equate activism with terrorism. That's where this is heading. Think, Okay, 704 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,800 Speaker 2: if you look at the pro Palestinian students essentially snatched 705 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 2: off the streets with no warrant in New York, the 706 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 2: Food Khalil case, the Rumesa Osturk case at Tufts University, 707 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 2: the Columbia students and others. Okay, the justification for that 708 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 2: according to Trump and Secretary of State Marco Rubio, is 709 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,080 Speaker 2: that these are terrorist sympathizers, that the mere fact of 710 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 2: protesting peacefully as protected by the Constitution in the First Amendment, 711 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 2: somehow turns them into terrorist sympathizers. And once you throw 712 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 2: around the word terrorist. 713 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 1: Well that's what they did to the animal rights people 714 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,800 Speaker 1: in the years exactly totally. 715 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 2: And even someone Jessica Resisk, who's someone I've gotten to know, 716 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:42,960 Speaker 2: who protested the Dacode access pipeline that Greenpeace protested. She 717 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 2: ended up vandalizing the pipeline in an act of nonviolent 718 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 2: civil disobedience. She faced a maximum three year term. She 719 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 2: got to court, the judge not only gave her the 720 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 2: maximum three year term, put a five year enhancement on 721 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 2: it by calling her a terrorist. She called her a 722 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 2: terrorist for trying to vandalize an oil pipeline. That's not terrorism. 723 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,120 Speaker 2: You know, protesting the policies of the Israeli government is 724 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 2: not terrorism. I'm sorry, but this is where they're trying 725 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 2: to shove all this stuff. So you know, we start 726 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,719 Speaker 2: as these slap cases. Oh, I'm suing Steven Donziger for 727 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,600 Speaker 2: defamation or I'm going to I'm suing Greenpeace under a 728 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 2: civil racketeering theory, and then it goes from there. It's 729 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 2: a very short hop to trying to criminalize all the 730 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,280 Speaker 2: people involved as terrorists, and of course once that happens, 731 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 2: you're facing twenty thirty year jail terms, life in prison. 732 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 2: And you know, look, I'm not necessarily necessarily saying they're 733 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,839 Speaker 2: going to get away with that much, but it's it's 734 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 2: looming on the horizon, and it really is intended as 735 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,839 Speaker 2: an intimidation mechanism. It's intended to shut people up by 736 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,839 Speaker 2: instilling fear in the populace, and we have to really 737 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:55,839 Speaker 2: understand what it is. 738 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: Would you say, Paul Pasn mean that the path now 739 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 1: is whatever my you can give to donate to Greenpeace, 740 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: donate for their legal defense fund. Is that accurate or no? 741 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,640 Speaker 4: I'm not sure about Greenpeace's legal defense fund. I think 742 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 4: they actually have a lot of support they've gotten internationally 743 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 4: to come together. But what you need to do, in 744 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 4: my opinion, is look for the local groups that are 745 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,920 Speaker 4: challenging who do need your support. If you look around 746 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 4: at what issues are happening where you are locally, you 747 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 4: will find a group, an environmental justice group or a 748 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,480 Speaker 4: civil rights group that is challenging those actions and needs 749 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 4: support locally to be in the streets and needs to 750 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,839 Speaker 4: know one that you have their back and two that 751 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:39,839 Speaker 4: you're going to financially support them. 752 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 3: Because with the cutbacks. 753 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 4: That we've seen from the federal government, everybody is turning 754 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:49,799 Speaker 4: to nonprofits, they're turning to foundations. USAID disappearing has put a. 755 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:50,759 Speaker 3: Burden on Amazon Watch. 756 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,439 Speaker 4: For example, in Peru, we have indigenous allies who've been 757 00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 4: threatened because of their work against illegal activity in the 758 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:02,840 Speaker 4: proving Amazon USAID helping keep them alive. They're getting death threats. 759 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,319 Speaker 4: All that money is gone, and now they're turning to 760 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,080 Speaker 4: NGOs there, attorneys to nonprofits, attorney to foundations. So there's 761 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,120 Speaker 4: an increased need to step up to fill the gap 762 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,400 Speaker 4: where the government was in some way supporting. 763 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: Well in this country, where forever a turney to NGOs 764 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:19,440 Speaker 1: to do things the government used to do. 765 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:25,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, in other civilized countries the government does do and yeah, 766 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,800 Speaker 2: totally true. But I would say people want to help. 767 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,080 Speaker 2: I would suggest donating to Amazon Watch. We're always frontline 768 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,800 Speaker 2: defenders in the Amazon The other thing I would recommend 769 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,760 Speaker 2: is take a look at the civil liberties Defense Center 770 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 2: and Eugene organ It came to my rescue when I 771 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,680 Speaker 2: was under attack. You know, in this trial Lauren Reagan 772 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,839 Speaker 2: as their executive director. They are probably the leading group 773 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,239 Speaker 2: in the country sort of protecting people who were hit 774 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 2: with these slaps in the protest context. It's the Civil 775 00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:01,360 Speaker 2: Liberties Defense Center and Eugene organ but they operate on 776 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 2: a national scale and they do amazing stuff in the courtroom, 777 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 2: and they could use more support. And I really like 778 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 2: them and they helped me. So it's the Civil Liberties 779 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,879 Speaker 2: Defense Center and Amazon Watch. This is really about us, 780 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 2: the people banding together to protect those of us who 781 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,719 Speaker 2: are on the front lines, speaking out and facing the 782 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,040 Speaker 2: brunt of these attacks. And you know, we want to 783 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 2: get this to a place where we're not just on 784 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:32,279 Speaker 2: the defensive. We take offense to really try to create 785 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:33,440 Speaker 2: the world we all deserve. 786 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:43,360 Speaker 1: My thanks to Paul Pasaminho and Steven Donziger. This episode 787 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:46,959 Speaker 1: was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. We're 788 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,800 Speaker 1: produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Victoria de Martin. 789 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is 790 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,719 Speaker 1: Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin, here's the thing that is 791 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,240 Speaker 1: brought to you by Art Radio