1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from stuff 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly fry. So that's time. 4 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 1: I went to the Museum of Fine Art Boston and 5 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: saw that time capsule that had been pulled out from 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: the cornerstone of the Old Statehouse. I had three things 7 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: on my to do list on that trip. There was 8 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: that time capsule. There was Gustav Klimps Adam and Eve, 9 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: which was on loan from a museum in Vienna. And 10 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: there was a huge exhibition of artwork by the Japanese 11 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 1: artist best known as Katsushika Hokusai. And in addition to 12 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:47,479 Speaker 1: that to do list, I wound up also seeing lots 13 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: of Leonardo da Vinci sketches and some World War One 14 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: propaganda posters, and a whole series of photos inspired by 15 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: the earthquake and tsunami that stretched Japan in So just 16 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: to give you a sense of how many amazing things 17 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: there are at the Museum of Fine Art in Boston. Uh, 18 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: if you've never heard of Hokusa, you will probably still 19 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: recognize his most famous work, which is under the Wave 20 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: Off kind of Gawa, which is better known as the 21 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: Great Wave. This is the one that shows three little 22 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,919 Speaker 1: boats in the shadow of an enormous, menacing frothing wave, 23 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: with Mount Fuji shown in the background. Hokus I lived 24 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: during a time when there was not a lot of 25 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: contact between Japan and the West, but even so he 26 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 1: drew some influence from Western art, and then Western art 27 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: was later greatly influenced by his own work and from 28 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 1: others from the time period when he lived. His career 29 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: was also extremely long and diverse, and his work was 30 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: just prolific. This collection of work at the m f 31 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: A in Boston is huge, and the temporary exhibition of 32 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: it is so big that we actually had to take 33 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: a break from looking at it and go eat and 34 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: come back because it's enormous. Uh. The m f A 35 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: actually describes its collection of Japanese art as the largest 36 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: and finest outside of Japan. So Hokusi is who we 37 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: were going to talk about today. Hokosa I was born 38 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: in Edo, which is now Tokyo, in seventeen sixty and 39 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: he lived during Japan's Edo Period, also called the Tokugawa Period. 40 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: The Edo period lasted for about two hundred fifty years 41 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 1: starting in the early sixteen hundreds. Hoka size work grew 42 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: directly from a number of social changes that took place 43 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: in Japan during this period. The period before the Tokugawa 44 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: came to power was known as the Sengoku period, and 45 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: it was also nicknamed the Warring States period because it 46 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: was marked with war, unrest, and strife. The Tokugawa took 47 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: several steps to try to secure their power and prevent 48 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: a return to the state of perpetual conflict once they 49 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: were in power. The first was that the Tokugawa Shoguns 50 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: banned Christianity and expelled all Europeans from Japan except for 51 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: the Dutch, and the Dutch were exempt because they had 52 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 1: and tried to convert the Japanese, but even Dutch contact 53 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,839 Speaker 1: with Japan was limited, as was Japan's contact with its 54 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: nearer neighbors of China and Korea. The second was that 55 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: the Tokugawa required the feudal lords, who were known as 56 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: the damio who ruled Japan's provinces in their stead, to 57 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: maintain two residences. One was an edo and the other 58 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: was back in their home province. The daimyo were expected 59 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: to travel back and forth between these residences while their 60 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: families stayed in Edo full time. The residences of the 61 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: Daimio were expected to be lavish and opulent, and when 62 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,040 Speaker 1: they traveled back and forth between their home provinces and Edo, 63 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: they were expected to do so at great luxury and 64 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: with a large retinue of mostly unmarried samurai. There was 65 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: an ulterior motive to all this. The Tokugawa and Edo 66 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: always had an eye on the Damio's families, which basically 67 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: functioned as a tacit threat to their safety to keep 68 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: the Imo in line. And in addition to all of that, 69 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: they had to spend so much money on these multiple 70 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 1: residences and the travel back and forth that the daimio 71 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: could never afford to raise an army to challenge the 72 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,039 Speaker 1: Tokugawa's power. So it was sort of a way to 73 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: keep everybody in line. And as a side note, this 74 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 1: plan was not entirely successful. In one a group of 75 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 1: ronan or masterless samurai tried to orchestrate a coup against 76 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: the Tokugawa. Even though the Daimio were employing quite a 77 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: lot of samurai, there were many others who were effectively 78 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 1: out of work. Once the Warring States period was over. However, 79 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: these requirements that were placed on the Daimio affected life 80 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: for other people in Japan as well. Number One, people 81 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: were traveling a lot. Even though Japan wasn't having much 82 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: contact with the rest of the world, travel within its 83 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: own borders really became its own industry. Five major highways 84 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: connected Eddo to the rest of Japan and and these 85 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: were lined with places to rest, eat, arranged transportation, buy things, 86 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: and make religious observances. The most famous of these was 87 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: the Tokaido Road also called the Eastern Sea Road, and 88 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: this connected Edo to Kyoto before going on to Osaka. 89 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,359 Speaker 1: And although the Daimio traveled these roads at great expense, 90 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: ordinary people were also using them. Society under the Tokugawa 91 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 1: became divided into four classes. There were warriors, farmers, artisans, 92 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: and merchants. And even though the merchants were technically at 93 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: the bottom of the pile since they just sold the 94 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,799 Speaker 1: work of other people rather than creating work of their own, 95 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: a lot of the merchants became quite rich. Japan became 96 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: home to a thriving middle class thanks to all of 97 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 1: these different industries and the increased commerce that was coming 98 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: with people traveling everywhere and maintaining multiple residences in Edo. 99 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,359 Speaker 1: Visiting Daimio and their large retinues of samurai tipped the 100 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: gender balance within the city, spawning another industry, one of 101 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: pleasure and entertainment to cater to their interests. This whole 102 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 1: world of fashion, luxury, and amusement became known as the 103 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: floating world or okio. The newly wealthy merchants and artisans 104 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: had access to the floating world as well, but also 105 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: spawned a whole school of art called you ki o 106 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: A or Pictures of a Floating World, and these were 107 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: basically pictures, paintings and wood black prints of things like 108 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: pleasure districts, courtisign's, geisha tea houses, kabuki actors, that sort 109 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: of thing, and they were hugely popular among the growing 110 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: middle class. It was in this school of art that 111 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: Hokuside trained as an artist, and we're going to talk 112 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,559 Speaker 1: about how that training came about after a brief word 113 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: from a sponsor. So to return to Hokusai specifically, we 114 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: know a lot more about his professional life than about 115 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 1: his personal life. There's a fair amount of contradiction when 116 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: it comes to the details of his biography. Thanks to 117 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: its age and the fact that a lot of knowledge 118 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: of it that survives today. It's kind of glean from 119 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 1: a wide range of sources, like introductions he wrote to 120 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: his own books and notes from other artists that were 121 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: compiled well after his death. He was born Kawamura Tokitao. 122 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: He had an uncle named Nakajima isay who was a 123 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: mirror polisher. This was actually a prestigious position because mirrors 124 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: at the time were mainly made from bronze rather than 125 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: silvered glass. Mirror polishing required a special and exact set 126 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: of skills, and Hocusized uncle had no heir to train 127 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: to take over this position, so hocusis uncle adopted him, 128 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: and later on reflections, refractions, lenses, and optical effects would 129 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: become a huge part of hocusized work. Hocus I started 130 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: writing and drawing at the age of six, and these 131 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: are two skills that are really connected quite closely in 132 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: Japanese culture thanks to the use of kanji in written language. 133 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: Later on, hokus I would also say that anyone who 134 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: could write could also draw, and he would create the 135 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: paintings that were basically built up from a series of 136 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: written words. It's unclear whether hokus I just didn't want 137 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: to be a mirror polisher, or whether he didn't get 138 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: along with his uncle, or whether he correctly concluded that 139 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: bronze mirrors were going to go out of fashion, but regardless, 140 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: as a teen he did not pursue his uncle's line 141 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: of work. He worked instead for a publisher and a 142 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: lending library, and he worked as a block carver, making 143 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: blocks for woodblock prints, even though he demonstrated a talent 144 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: for art at a very young age, and his uncle's 145 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: position meant he could get access to the showgun's official 146 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: painters hocus, as formal education in art didn't actually start 147 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 1: until he was nineteen, he joined the studio of Katsukawa 148 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: Centual a uk O a artist in seventeen seventy nine. 149 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: Katsukawa some shows specialty was woodblock prints of kabuki actors. 150 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: While working in Katsukawa's studio, hokus I signed his Prince 151 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: Shun rule, which is a combination of a character from 152 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 1: his teacher's name plus an additional character, and this was 153 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: traditionally how art students would sign their work with like 154 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: a character from their teacher's name plus another character of 155 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: their own choosing. Hokus I worked with the Katsukawa School 156 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: until seventeen, and these years are known as hokus as 157 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: Chunro period. During this period, he also illustrated about fifty books, 158 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: and he made woodblock prints of a lot of subjects 159 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: that were common in the u k o A School. 160 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: Although little of his painting work survives from this period, 161 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: it's clear that he studied painting at the Katsukawa School 162 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: as well. Hokus I also started experimenting with Western style 163 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: vanishing point perspectives in his work during this time, and 164 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: that's a theme that would resurface later on. I will 165 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: find some visual resources to look at and link them 166 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: from our show notes about Western style banishing point perspectives 167 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: services the way that perspective has traditionally worked in in 168 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: various Asian art. Because it's hard to explain with word, 169 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: some show died in seventeen ninety two, and two years later, 170 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: for reasons that aren't completely clear, hokus I left the 171 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: school and stopped using the name shun Row. He found 172 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: another position now that Tawaria family hired him to train 173 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: their son, whose father, an artist, had died. Hokus I 174 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: was allowed to use the name Suli, which was the 175 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: name of the deceased father, until his son was ready 176 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: to assume his role as heir and leader of the 177 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: family's school. The Tawaria family apparently had quite a bit 178 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 1: of wealth and status, so while he was with them, 179 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: hokus I had access to the best paints, inks, and 180 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: other art materials, and for about four years he produced 181 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: a large number of privately commissioned prints known as surimono, 182 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: as well as a number of paintings. Working with privately 183 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: commissioned prince gave Hokusi some artistic freedoms he didn't have before. 184 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: He didn't need to worry about sticking with less expensive 185 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 1: printing inks because the print runs themselves were much smaller 186 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: and everything was being paid for by his patrons. A 187 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: lot of these works were commissioned by poetry clubs as 188 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: accompaniment for playful works of poetry. Because of this work 189 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 1: in private commissions, Hokusai developed friendships with many prominent poets 190 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: and other well known figures, and he seems to have 191 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: been quite financially prosperous during his story period as well. 192 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: It was in the spring of when the Tauriyah Air 193 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: assumed control of the family school that Hokosa gave up 194 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: on the soul Re name and began working under the 195 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: name Hokusai Tokimasa. He would continue to change his name 196 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: from time to time after this point, which is a 197 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: pretty common practice among artists in the Edo period, but 198 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: the name Hokusai is the one that he really became 199 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: recognized for. He became so well known under that name 200 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: that even as he used other names, he would often 201 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: add Saki no Hokusai or the former Hokusai to his works. 202 00:11:55,280 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 1: It's like the artists formerly known as prince Um. After 203 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: leaving the Tawaraya family, he also experimented with a lot 204 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: of forms of art besides the standard prints, paintings, and 205 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: book illustrations that had made up a large portion of 206 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: his work before. He made a board game depicting a 207 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: journey from Edo to several pilgrimage sites and back again. 208 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: He also created puzzles and a deck of playing cards 209 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: based on the tail of Genji. He produced books of 210 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: his own, including manuals on how to draw, and he 211 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 1: published sketch books known as manga. He also made lots 212 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 1: and lots of dioramas. These were intricate illustrations that were 213 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: printed on one flat sheet or maybe two. You really 214 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: needed a lot of them, and they were meant to 215 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 1: be carefully cut out and then assembled, with the cut 216 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: pieces standing up vertically, which would create a three dimensional scene. 217 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: Many of these were extremely complex and detailed. One of 218 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: the prints in the m f AS exhibition is one 219 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 1: of these, uncut and working from a copy of it. 220 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: Curators tried to create an assembled version to kind of 221 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 1: accompany it so you could see the flat one as 222 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: it was printed and the assembled one. It's took them 223 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: multiple tries to get it to do. We mentioned before 224 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 1: that we don't know a great deal about Hokusai's personal life, 225 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: but what we do know is that he experienced a 226 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: series of tragedy starting around eighteen twenty. His oldest daughter 227 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: had married one of his students, and they divorced in 228 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: eight six. Hokosa became very very ill, and a year 229 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: later his wife died. His grandson, son of the daughter 230 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: who had divorced, did something. The details of what exactly 231 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: it was are unclear, but whatever it was led Hokusai 232 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: into some really huge financial problems. His third daughter, on 233 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: the other hand, was named katsushika Oi, and she became 234 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,599 Speaker 1: a wonderful artist on her own, and it's possible that 235 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 1: she helped her father with some of his work. I 236 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: actually originally wanted to do the episode on her because 237 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: she seems to have been quite a character who loved 238 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: sake quite a lot, and she would sometimes substitute one 239 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: of the characters in her name for one meaning drunk 240 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: instead when she signed her artwork. But unfortunately, yeah, we 241 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: know even less about her and have way less of 242 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: a body of work to drop round to talk about 243 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: uh katsushika Oi than we do about her father. And 244 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: it's possible that all these tragedies and the lack of 245 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: money that followed were what spurred hokus I into making 246 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: his most famous work of art, thirty six Views of 247 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: Mount Fuji. As its name suggests, there are thirty six 248 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: prints each featuring Mount Fuji in some way, and the 249 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: Great Wave is one of those. The series fit in 250 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: well with a trend that was rushing through Japan at 251 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: that point, which was sets of full sized landscape prints 252 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: that worked together as a series. Another of these series 253 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: that you may have heard of is Hero. She gaves 254 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: fifty three stations of the Tokaido Road. Hokusai himself also 255 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: did a series on the stations of the Tokaido Road, 256 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: but hero she Gays became more famous than than hocus 257 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: Size did. Thirty six Views of Mount Fuji was also 258 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: inspired by Prussian blue ink, which was newly available in 259 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: Japan and known as Berlin Blue there. It led to 260 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: a huge demand for artwork that used the color blue, 261 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: and while the public clamored for azerier or prints done 262 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: entirely in shades of blue, hocus I started using the 263 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: blue paint for the outlines on his landscapes, which had 264 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: traditionally been black, and he also used them for prints 265 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: of birds and flowers. Hocus I also used lots of 266 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: blue in his work in general during this craze for blue, 267 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: and some of the prints in the thirty six Views 268 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: of Mount Fuji in their first edition printing, are almost 269 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: entirely blue. As people became less enamored with the color blue. 270 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: The same blocks would then be used to print new 271 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: editions of these works, but with more colors in them 272 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: that they weren't quite so overwhelmingly blue. After the success 273 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: of the thirty six Views of Mount Fuji, hocus I 274 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 1: created just an enormous number of landscape prints, but around 275 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty four eighteen thirty five, he ran into some 276 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: trouble with his publisher, and the details, as is often 277 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: the case with his story, are unclear, although it seems 278 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: as though a publisher that he'd been working with on 279 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: several multi volume books of Prince suddenly went bankrupt, and 280 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: consequently later books that were supposed to come out went unpublished. 281 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: With this problem with his publisher, hoku Size commercial output 282 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: really dropped tremendously. Japan was also hit with an enormous 283 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: economic depression from eighteen thirty three eighteen thirty seven, and 284 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: that dried up demand for hokus Size work, and his 285 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: studio and its contents were destroyed in a fire in 286 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty nine. In spite of all this and of 287 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: the changes in the market for artwork, hokus I continued 288 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: to be tremendously creative right through the end of his life. 289 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: He experimented with paintings and festival floats, and he designed 290 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: a sculpture. He died in eighteen forty nine, at the 291 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: age of ninety by the Japanese method of counting and 292 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: eighty nine by the Western method. Uh. He said he'd 293 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: be a truly skilled painter if he lived to be 294 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: a hundred. And at that point he had put out 295 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: just an enormous body of work, a lot of it 296 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: just extremely playful. He experimented with new ways of approaching artwork, 297 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 1: he made all of these creative strides. But he was like, Yeah, 298 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: if I could just live to be a hundred, then 299 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: I'd be a really skilled painter. Just ten more years 300 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: to get me there. So he drew and painted so 301 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: many things, but so much of his work was in 302 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: the form of wood black prints, And we're going to 303 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about how these prints were 304 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: made and also about how hokus I later influenced Western art. 305 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: After another brief word from a sponsor. So often when 306 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: we talk about visual artists on the show, we're talking 307 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 1: about people who made each piece of art as one thing. 308 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: So painters and sculptors and potters and textile artists, they 309 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: make a work of art, and while you can see 310 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: pictures of that work of art or maybe make prints 311 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 1: of it, there's only one original. Like you go to 312 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: a museum and you see the Mona Lisa, there's one 313 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: of it. That's not the case for one of hokusis 314 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: primary media, the wood block print. Hokus size wood block 315 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 1: prints include all the typical subjects of the ukio A school, 316 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: as well as waterfalls, birds and flowers, dragons, ghosts and monsters, fish, lanterns. 317 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: It goes on and on in a huge range of subjects. 318 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 1: Printmaking isn't unique to Japanese art, but in the Edo 319 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: period in particular, wood black prints were a very popular 320 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: form of art in Japan. First, the artist would create 321 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: the picture. Then a block cutter would put that picture 322 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: face down onto the wooden block, secure it there, and 323 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: very very carefully cut out the block along the lines 324 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 1: of the artwork. A black and white work could use 325 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 1: just one block, but for a color work, the block 326 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: carver would take an impression of that original carving to 327 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: make a different block for each layer of color. To 328 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: make the actual print, print printmakers inked the block lay 329 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 1: paper over it, and they rubbed the back to transfer 330 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: the ink onto the paper. This made print making a collaborative, 331 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 1: collective form of art, and says Hocusi himself had worked 332 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,120 Speaker 1: as a block carver, he had perspectives that came from 333 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: all parts of this process. There was no press involved 334 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: that a lot of people think of when making prints. 335 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 1: With these blocks, printmakers could make lots and lots of 336 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: copies of the same work of art, which is why 337 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: you can find copies of the Great Wave and other 338 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: Edo period prints that came from those original blocks in 339 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: museums all over the world rather than just one museum. 340 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: And it also meant that a lot of people living 341 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: at the time were able to afford to buy his 342 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: work and have artwork on their walls. Hocusis work was 343 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: actually at one point even printed on papers for rice snacks, 344 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: almost like collectible cereal boxes like the the snack manufacturer 345 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: was was hoping that people would want to buy their 346 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: snacks more so they could have more hocus I art 347 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: from the wrappers. I love it. I wish we could 348 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,479 Speaker 1: get works of art with our snakes. Uh. Commodore Matthew 349 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 1: Perry arrived in Japan on July eighteenth of eighteen fifty three, 350 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,679 Speaker 1: just a few years after hokusis death, and acting on 351 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: behalf of the U. S Government, he demanded that Japan 352 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 1: open trade to the West. Although Perry's fleet was small, 353 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: Japan had no navy with which to defend itself, and 354 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: so it was forced to negotiate. Japan and the United 355 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: States signed a trading agreement in eighteen fifty four. Further 356 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: treaties followed, most of them unequal and benefiting the other 357 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 1: trading partners more than Japan. Naturally, this affected Japan as 358 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: a nation dramatically. For example, the Tokugawa Shogunate fell and 359 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: was replaced by an emperor. But our focus here is 360 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: really going to stay on the artwork. While hokusized work 361 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: had begun to fall out of imperial favor, this newly 362 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: opened trade with the West sparked a craze for Japanese 363 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 1: art and culture fans. Kimonos, screens, and porcelain were in 364 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 1: huge demand in the West. Diplomats, tourists, and officials who 365 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: visited Japan also came home with the artwork that they 366 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: bought while living there. A big part of the m 367 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: f as Japanese artwork collection is actually a donation from 368 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: Dr William Statist Bigelow, who lived in Japan from eighteen 369 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 1: eighty two to eighteen eighty nine and then donated the 370 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: collection of art that he acquired while there to the 371 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: museum in nineteen eleven. For those who didn't acquire their 372 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 1: Japanese art and artifacts by visiting Japan. All this enthusiasm 373 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: for Japanese culture had the unfortunate effect of giving Westerners 374 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: a rather warped and stereotypical view of Japan. However, would 375 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 1: black prints and other Japanese art wound up being hugely 376 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: influential to artists in the West as well, and this 377 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: are this influence became known as japan is m. Felix Brequamant, 378 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: who was a French Impressionist painter, found a set of 379 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,439 Speaker 1: Hoku sized manga in Paris in eighteen fifty six. He 380 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: started sharing hocusize work with his artist friends, and soon 381 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: other Impressionist artists were really seeking out and learning from 382 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 1: hocus size art as well as the other as well 383 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: as the work of other artists from the uk O 384 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: A school. The Impressionist painters started to imitate the use 385 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: of color, lines and perspectives along with hocus eyes, often 386 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: very playful treatment of visual subjects. Claude Money acquired about 387 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty Japanese prints, twenty three of them 388 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: by Hokusai, and then, like Hokusai, he made a practice 389 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: of painting the same thing in many angles and from 390 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: many settings, you can see this clear Japanese influence, for 391 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: example in Ari DeLux, Devan Japonet and Vincent van gos 392 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 1: La Cartisen and a series of etchings by Mary Cassatt. Yeah, 393 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: if you, if you sort of line up lots of 394 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 1: uh hocus i prints and other work from the uk 395 00:22:54,880 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: A school next to lots of Impressionist and post Impressionist work. Um, 396 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 1: it's pretty easy in a lot of cases, even for 397 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: a late person who's not like deeply uh and meshed 398 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: in the world of art and art history, to see, um, 399 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: to see the progression from this Japanese art style into 400 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: Western art. It's pretty fascinating. I love it. I love it. 401 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: I do too this well. And so I did not 402 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: know how enormous this exhibition was when I went in there. Uh. 403 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 1: I thought it was about half the size that it was. 404 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: And then I came around a corner and there was 405 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: basically that entire size of what I had just seen, 406 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: doubled again or stuff. Uh. And a lot of it 407 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 1: is really incredible. Um, some of it. You know, there's 408 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 1: a whole, a whole Japanese artwork section of the museum 409 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: that you can see at any time, even when this 410 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 1: exhibition is not part of it anymore. UM. But I 411 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: do really like that, uh, that this artwork was printed 412 00:23:55,440 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: on mass and popularly consumed. UM. And so you know, 413 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: lots of folks just bought prints as a matter of course, 414 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: And you have all these prints that are still in 415 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: pristine condition that date back to the eighteen fifties and 416 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: before in museums all over the world. I think that's 417 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: pretty interesting. It's fabulous. Do he has it has less 418 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,199 Speaker 1: of the concern about where that art should rightfully be 419 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 1: since the same prints are also available in many museums 420 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 1: in Japan. And it's a question that comes up sometimes 421 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: when we're talking about art and what is in museums 422 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 1: around the world and where it came from. Yeah, do 423 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: you also have some interesting listener mail to share with us? 424 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: I do. It is about our recent two part episode 425 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 1: on Frankie Manning. I have been pleasantly surprised by our 426 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: email about Frankie Manning. Uh. Based on past experience, I 427 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: had expected our conversation about cultural appropriation, which you could 428 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: say applies to this episode two. Uh. I expect that 429 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: that to make people really mad based on some previous 430 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: experience on the podcast but most of the people who 431 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: have written and have been extremely sweet. Um. I some 432 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: of the email we've gotten has been a little misguided, 433 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: but it's mostly very nice. So I this is a 434 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: case where like sometimes we've read really angry email that 435 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: people have sent us to explain why why. That's not 436 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: the point of view that we were talking about. But 437 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: like people who have written have just been so sweet 438 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: that I don't really want to embarrass anyone who sent 439 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: us sweet email. UM. Instead, I'm going to read this 440 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: one from Stephen. Stephen says, Hello, Tracy and Holly. You 441 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 1: do a great show. I've been listening to the podcast 442 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:40,719 Speaker 1: for years now and it really got me interested in 443 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: the other house stuff works, podcasts and beyond. This has 444 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 1: truly given me great listening for long car drives and 445 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: working around the house. Keep up the good work. You 446 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: guys did a great job covering Frank Frankie Manning. So 447 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: about your question regarding whether it is appropriate or not 448 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 1: to have Lindy Hop dancing at your wedding, I started 449 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,080 Speaker 1: dancing back when the Revival was at his height. In 450 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: I've enjoyed six counts swing at eight count Lindy Hop 451 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: and eventually Blues dancing in quotation marks that's another story. 452 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,439 Speaker 1: Though I've listened to and taken lessons from Frankie Manning. 453 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 1: Based on my experience, you were correct when you mentioned 454 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: that Frankie was more than happy to teach anyone who 455 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: wanted to learn. He devoted most of the rest of 456 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 1: his life to teaching after Aaron and Steve Mitchell Ridge 457 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,719 Speaker 1: reached out to him. Whenever I saw him teach a class, 458 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 1: he was having the time of his life. I have 459 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: also attended lectures slash sermons given by another wonderful person 460 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: from that area, Don Hampton, as I understand it, though 461 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: I cannot confirm it from research. She was fourteen years 462 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: old and on that trip to Rio with Frankie in 463 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 1: the dance troupe. In fact, at the outbreak of the war, 464 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: she was the first person they sent back home since 465 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: she was so young. She is of that era to 466 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: knew Frankie and a number of the original dancers intimately, 467 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: so when she talks about dancing, she is a person 468 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: of authority who was around and it was all beginning. 469 00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,719 Speaker 1: Below is a link to a video of John Hampton 470 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: talk can get Frankie Manning's birthday party in New York City. 471 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 1: This echoes a talk I heard her give at Swing Out, 472 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 1: New Hampshire in two thousand five. She discussed her becoming 473 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: aware of the swing revival that was occurring in the nineties, 474 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 1: and that a friend brought her to the dance club 475 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: where people were swing dancing. She was absolutely tickled that 476 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: people had started up dancing again, and one of her 477 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: comments was and most of them were white. Her words, 478 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: she didn't shouldn't mind that the dance wasn't as fully 479 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: attended by African Americans. She was just happy someone was 480 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 1: continuing the tradition, even if they were of a different 481 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: different ethnicity. She's one of the sweetest people you could 482 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: ever meet, and it has always been a joyed to 483 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 1: hear her talk about dancing and it's positive impact on 484 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 1: our culture and how it can bridge human differences. And 485 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: then he gives us a link. I'm gonna stick that 486 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: link in the share notes. The sound isn't great, but 487 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: you'll get a great feel for what she's like as 488 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 1: a person. Pay particular attention to her talk at the 489 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 1: seven minute mark. I've heard Frankie talk a number of 490 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: times and would be happy to share for the stories 491 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: you have about his life and dancing if you want 492 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: to hear them. Sorry about the length of this email, 493 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: don't apologize. It's great. I'm sure you get plenty of mail, 494 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: which we definitely do, and then he says, I hope 495 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 1: you have a good time at your wedding. Um, I 496 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: wanted to read this one. We've gotten several great emails, 497 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: and I wanted to read this one because it's sort 498 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 1: of another perspective from somebody who was dancing UH at 499 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: the time I have. We've gotten several that sort of 500 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: echo the thing that I said, which is that when 501 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: I was learning swing dancing, zero of this information about 502 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 1: where Lindy Hop came from was really included in uh 503 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: in the class, like sometimes Frankie Manning would be mentioned, 504 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: but not a lot about his history or where he 505 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: came from or how this dance developed. Um. We did 506 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: even get an email from somebody who said this like 507 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: her experience was similar to that, and she had just 508 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: assumed that Frankie was white because everyone else who was 509 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: taking dance with her was also white. So it seems 510 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: like a logical conclusion. So I think there are Uh. 511 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: The trend in our email is that we have had 512 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: lots of folks who started Lyndy Hop dancing while Frankie 513 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: Manning was still alive and had the opportunity to learn 514 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,239 Speaker 1: directly from him, um and who all seemed to have 515 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 1: a very uh nuanced and thoughtful approach to the idea 516 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: of cultural appropriation in money hup. And then a lot 517 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: of people who came along after uh Frankie Manning had 518 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: passed away and and he wasn't so personally present in 519 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: Lindy Hop anymore, who had similar experiences to what I had, 520 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: which is that that just was never mentioned and it 521 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: was not something we thought about or knew about it 522 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: all until much later. So all of that ties together 523 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: and a big ongoing conversation that basically boils down to 524 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: just think about what you're doing, and be thoughtful and 525 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: listen to other people. Uh and and and don't take 526 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: for granted that something is okay to just do without 527 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: thinking about it. If you would like to write to 528 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: us about this or any other podcast, we are at 529 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: History Podcast at how Stuffworks dot com. We're also on 530 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: Facebook at facebook dot com, slash missed in History and 531 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: on Twitter at miss in History. Our tumbler is missed 532 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: in History dot tembler dot com and or on Pinterest 533 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: at pents dot com, slash missed in History. 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