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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I don't come to Stephane.

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Speaker 1: Never told your protection of I Heart Radio. And today

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Speaker 1: we are thrilled to once again be joined by the amazing,

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Speaker 1: fantastic Bridget Todd. Hi, Bridget, thanks for joining us. Oh

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Always such a pleasure to be joining you ladies. An

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Speaker 1: happy belated birth I thank you. Yeah, I had a birthday.

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Speaker 1: I almost kind of forgot because it happened in a

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Speaker 1: weird time, but thank you. You were in the middle

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Speaker 1: of your travels, right, Yeah. I was in Austin, Texas

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Speaker 1: for south By Southwest. It's not a bad place to

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Speaker 1: spend your birthday, but it kind of happened very quickly,

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Speaker 1: and I kind of forgot about it. I was getting

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Speaker 1: on the plane to go back home and the person

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Speaker 1: who checked my idea was like, oh, happy belated birthday,

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Speaker 1: and I said, oh, that's right. I thank you. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think someone recently asked me how how old I was,

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Speaker 1: and I like paused to think about it. Um, get

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Speaker 1: back to you on that. But yeah, how was your

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Speaker 1: south By Southwest experience? It was good, It was interesting,

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Speaker 1: you know, it was the first time they had done

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Speaker 1: it since COVID. It was cool. I have to shout

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Speaker 1: out the fact that probably every other panel or like

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Speaker 1: talk like speech or talk that I saw was a

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Speaker 1: trans person or a non binary person really speaking out

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Speaker 1: against some of the like horrific legislation we've seen in Texas.

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Speaker 1: And there were lots of women speaking out about like

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Speaker 1: the horrible abortion legislation in Texas. So even though it

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Speaker 1: felt a little bit strange to be in Texas, I was,

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Speaker 1: I left so empowered and engaged and like leaned into

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Speaker 1: the fight to um, you know, really create change age.

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Speaker 1: And so I have to really shout out a lot

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Speaker 1: of you know, abortion advocates and trans advocates that I'm

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Speaker 1: sure being in Texas was like tough for them, but

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Speaker 1: I really have to shout out how incredible it was

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Speaker 1: for them to make space to open up conversations about

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Speaker 1: legislation that is harming their community. So it was good. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love that because I know, like it's kind of

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Speaker 1: so difficult to be in an area where it's so

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Speaker 1: toxic to you as a person, as a human being

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Speaker 1: going through your life and then feeling like, yeah, you

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Speaker 1: know what, I can't leave because I have to fight this.

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Speaker 1: There's just a double wayman. But that is amazing to

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Speaker 1: hear that such an event, which is an international event,

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Speaker 1: was able to push forward that conversation. Absolutely. I I

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Speaker 1: really think, like shout out to all of those people

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Speaker 1: who I don't even say, I'm not even like. I

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Speaker 1: think they took the space for themselves and I think

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Speaker 1: that was the right thing to do. Yeah, awesome, that's

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Speaker 1: that's amazing. And we were discussing before the one. Um,

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Speaker 1: this is a topic that is so important that you

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Speaker 1: brought to us today. It's a bit of a downer,

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Speaker 1: but it's incredibly important and and I think like we're

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Speaker 1: going to have a lot of there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: nuance with this that I appreciate that you brought to it.

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Speaker 1: So what did you bring for us to discuss today,

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Speaker 1: Bridget Yeah, as you said, it's a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a rough topic. So you know, we're gonna be talking

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Speaker 1: about sexual assault and you know, domestic violence and abuse,

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Speaker 1: so just know that going forward. So you know my podcast,

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Speaker 1: there are no girls on the Internet. It's really all

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Speaker 1: about the ways that issues that maybe don't seem like

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Speaker 1: tech issues, issues that impact women and other traditionally marginalized people.

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Speaker 1: You know, they might not be seen as tech issues,

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Speaker 1: but they're very much tech issues. And today's topic, I

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Speaker 1: think is a really great example of what I mean.

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Speaker 1: So today I want to talk about the platform YouTube

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Speaker 1: and their failure to remove a video of actor and

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Speaker 1: activist Evan rachel Would being sexually assaulted. So it is

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Speaker 1: really important to me, you know, as someone who makes

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Speaker 1: a tech podcast and cares about technology and works on technology,

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Speaker 1: to talk about this and especially frame it not as

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Speaker 1: kind of a quote celebrity story, which I've seen it

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Speaker 1: really framed as, or even worse as a quote he said,

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Speaker 1: she said, which is obviously not correct because that kind

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Speaker 1: of framing I think really lets tech companies that are

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Speaker 1: involved off the hook. I'm sure these tech companies like

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Speaker 1: YouTube would love it if this story was not framed

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Speaker 1: as a tech accountability story and it was just a

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Speaker 1: sort of you know, celebrity story, But unfortunately for them,

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Speaker 1: that's I'm not framing it that way. I am framing

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Speaker 1: it as a tech accountability story because that's what I

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Speaker 1: believe that it is. That's amazing because we literally were

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Speaker 1: just talking about an episode which came out when which TikTok.

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Speaker 1: I talked about the fact that are allowing these really bad,

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Speaker 1: like really misogynistic jokes about killing women on dates essentially

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Speaker 1: and allowing it saying it's not violating anything. Is just

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Speaker 1: a joke, and it's kind of like, wait, where's the accountability. No,

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Speaker 1: you are allowing this rhetoric that people are just latching onto,

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Speaker 1: which is so toxic, harmful and dangerous for women in general.

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Speaker 1: So we need to have a conversation about why you

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Speaker 1: are accountable for these things. But I digress, because let's

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Speaker 1: hear about exactly what you're talking about, especially with Van

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Speaker 1: Rachel Would. I think I know a little bit about it,

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Speaker 1: but if you can just kind of go into that, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: So here's what's happening with Evan Rachel Wood. Basically, would

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Speaker 1: have spent a few years now advocating for survivors of

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Speaker 1: sexual violence and abuse, and when she's done this, she's

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Speaker 1: often referenced her own, you know, heretofore unnamed abuser, but

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Speaker 1: on February one, Would publicly named her abuser in a

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Speaker 1: message on Instagram. She wrote, the name of my abuser

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Speaker 1: is Brian Warner, also known to the world as Marilyn Manson.

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Speaker 1: He started grooming me as a teenager and horrifically abused

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Speaker 1: me for years. I am here to expose this dangerous

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Speaker 1: man and call out the many industries that have enabled

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Speaker 1: him before he ruins any more lives. And so a

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Speaker 1: quick note for people who are listening, you will probably

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Speaker 1: be more familiar with Brian Warner as his stage name

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Speaker 1: as a musician, Marilyn Manson. But I am not going

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Speaker 1: to call him Marilyn Manson in this episode, and I

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Speaker 1: have basically stopped calling him Marilyn Manson in general because

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Speaker 1: I think it adds to this mythology that Brian Warner

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Speaker 1: has created around himself, and I believe that he has

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Speaker 1: exploited that mythology to continue to abuse women. I'll talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit more about what I mean later in

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Speaker 1: the episode, but when I say Warner, Bryan Warner, I'm

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Speaker 1: referring to the musician whose stage name is Marilyn Manson,

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Speaker 1: whose actual name is Brian Warner. And Evan rachel Wood

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Speaker 1: is not alone. Several women, including women who are not

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Speaker 1: famous and don't have a public profile like she does,

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Speaker 1: have made similar claims against Warner. So far, sixteen women

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Speaker 1: have accused Warner of sexual abuse, and four have sued

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Speaker 1: him for sexual assault. So, you know, I said earlier

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Speaker 1: that people were mistakenly framing it as he said. She said,

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Speaker 1: so even though that framing is not correct, Even if

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Speaker 1: that is how you were framing it, it wouldn't really

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Speaker 1: be a he said, she said. It would be more

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Speaker 1: like a he said, she said, she said, she said,

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Speaker 1: she said, you know, sixteen times up at the very

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Speaker 1: least exactly. I mean, like, like, who even knows you know,

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Speaker 1: this is what we know about. That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I remember when this came out and when it

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Speaker 1: first came out this kind of news, but it's recently

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Speaker 1: I saw it come up again that Warner is kind

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Speaker 1: of pursuing a legal a legal battle of his own

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Speaker 1: against her. So can you go into more like what

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Speaker 1: is going on right now? Right? So this you know,

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Speaker 1: we were talking about this when Evan Rachel would first

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Speaker 1: named Warner as her abuser back in one But the

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Speaker 1: reason why we're talking about it right now is because

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Speaker 1: Evan Rachel would just released a new documentary. But you

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Speaker 1: can watch on HBO Max the two part documentary called

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Speaker 1: Phoenix Rising that really chronicles her story. As you might

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Speaker 1: imagine it is a difficult watch. I watched the first

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Speaker 1: part of it, and I had to take a break

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Speaker 1: from the second part, which was watching last night, because

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Speaker 1: it's a little I mean, as you might imagine, it's

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Speaker 1: not the easiest watch. So just if you're planning on

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Speaker 1: a watch it, it it just know that. Um So the movie,

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Speaker 1: it's It's interesting in that it starts ostensibly as a

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Speaker 1: kind of erin Brockovich style story, chronicling would successful campaign

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Speaker 1: to pass the Phoenix Act, which is an legislation that

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Speaker 1: extends the statute of limitations on domestic by US in California.

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Speaker 1: But during filming, when Would publicly names Warner as her

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Speaker 1: own abuser, the film begins to follow that aftermath, and

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Speaker 1: so the documentary really chronicles her upbringing her her work

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Speaker 1: to become a you know, survivor advocate and domestic domestic

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Speaker 1: abuse advocate, you know, trying to pass this legislation, and

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Speaker 1: then kind of pivots when we see her publicly name

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Speaker 1: Warner as this person who had abused her that she

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Speaker 1: had been referencing as her abuser for so long in network.

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Speaker 1: And I know when we were originally seeing all of

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Speaker 1: this come because I remember seeing her testify before the

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Speaker 1: name was coming out in front of the Senate, trying

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Speaker 1: to talk about the statute of limitations and going into

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Speaker 1: this whole conversation. And how quickly after the fact she

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Speaker 1: shown herself as the survivor advocate and she named him.

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Speaker 1: How many people came behind her like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: this is why this is familiar. As well as the fact.

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Speaker 1: When she described some of the events that happened to her,

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Speaker 1: many women already came out because they had gone through

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Speaker 1: some similar things, um, including how they met. So can

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Speaker 1: you kind of talk about their relationship specifically Warner in Woods,

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Speaker 1: I really like how you have framed that because I

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Speaker 1: think that in her situation, so many other women spoke

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Speaker 1: up and said, this was exactly what happened with me.

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Speaker 1: He did this to me, you know her her sit

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Speaker 1: and I also think just her situation is really familiar

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Speaker 1: to me. And I think anybody who is dealt with

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Speaker 1: domestic violence or sexual abuse by an intimate partner, the

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Speaker 1: way that he operated in the beginning might be kind

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Speaker 1: of familiar. So Wooden Warner met at a party at

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Speaker 1: stau Marmont when she was eighteen and he was thirty seven.

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Speaker 1: They maintained a platonic friendship where Warner would talk to

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Speaker 1: her about things like her favorite books and her favorite artists.

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Speaker 1: Then the two started to date. Now she describes this

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Speaker 1: as a kind of grooming and love bombing situation where

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Speaker 1: you know, early on he was referring to her as

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Speaker 1: his soulmate and really was making her feel like he

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Speaker 1: was the only one who really got her, really loved her.

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Speaker 1: Early on, she describes him kind of starting to isolate

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Speaker 1: her from her friends and family, and that was the

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Speaker 1: beginning stages of their early romantic relationship. And so at

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Speaker 1: this point, you know, you might be thinking, you know,

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Speaker 1: why would someone like Evan Rachel would get involved romantically

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Speaker 1: with someone like Warner who was known for these shocking,

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Speaker 1: kind of gross antics on stage. And that kind of

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Speaker 1: really goes back to why I'm not going to call

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Speaker 1: him quote Marilyn Manson, And I think that big part

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Speaker 1: of that is because Warner's public persona as Marilyn Manson,

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Speaker 1: really helped him get away with gross abusive behavior in public.

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Speaker 1: So if you were a young person like me in

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Speaker 1: the nineties, you might remember that after the Columbine School

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Speaker 1: shooting in nineteen Warner was legitimately unfairly blamed for the

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Speaker 1: deaths of fifteen young people after it was misreported that

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Speaker 1: the Columbine shooters were big fans of his music and

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Speaker 1: that his music motivated them in the shooting. You know,

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Speaker 1: at this time, politicians were lobbying to have his performances banned,

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Speaker 1: citing these really over the top exaggerated, outlandish, untrue claims

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Speaker 1: things like at his shows, that he would have the

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Speaker 1: security guards spiked the drinking water at the shows and

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Speaker 1: give it to young kids in the audience, or that

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Speaker 1: he was engaging in bestiality on stage, or like ripping

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Speaker 1: apart animals. Warner's legal team actually sent the American Family

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Speaker 1: Association a cease and desist for saying that he encouraged

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Speaker 1: kids to engage in violent sexual acts from the stage

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Speaker 1: in the audience. And so none of that was true,

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Speaker 1: and Warner countered these legit unearned, unfair responses to the

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Speaker 1: rent that his music posts to kids by doing these

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Speaker 1: sort of very thoughtful, measured interviews where he was able

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Speaker 1: to portray himself indirect opposition to this outlandish onstage persona

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Speaker 1: that these politicians and conservative figures were sort of demonizing,

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Speaker 1: and so as he was being demonized by these people

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Speaker 1: and sort of, you know, them making up these outlandish

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Speaker 1: exaggerations and claims about him, he was able to really

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Speaker 1: present himself as this measured, thoughtful, reasonable person. And one

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Speaker 1: interview that really sticks out to me if anyone has

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Speaker 1: seen the documentary Michael Morris Bowling for columbun there's a

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Speaker 1: sit down segment with Marilyn Manson where he says things like, oh,

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Speaker 1: the young people who perpetrated the Columbine shooting would have

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Speaker 1: been safer had they purchased my cd s, you know,

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Speaker 1: rather than buying guns, and so he can remember specifically,

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Speaker 1: he comes off as this very thoughtful, measured, nuanced guy,

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Speaker 1: and it really created this, um, I don't know, the

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Speaker 1: sort of portrayal of him as someone who was being

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Speaker 1: unfairly maligned, and thus some of his other behavior was

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Speaker 1: really able to go unscrutinized because it was so clear

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Speaker 1: he was being unfairly demonized for this behavior that he

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Speaker 1: never actually engaged in, Like he wasn't actually spiking the

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Speaker 1: drinking water at his shows and having sexts with animals

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Speaker 1: on stage, right. And I know we're going to get

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Speaker 1: into this more later because I have a lot of

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Speaker 1: thoughts about all of this, and as I said, you

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Speaker 1: do such a great job of like there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of nuances to this conversation. But I remember I

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Speaker 1: listened to Marilyn Manson when I was really young and

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Speaker 1: I had a friend who was her parents really conservative

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Speaker 1: and they know jokes. Showed up at my mom's house

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Speaker 1: and yelled at my mom for letting their daughter listen

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Speaker 1: to it. And it became such a point of It's like,

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Speaker 1: it didn't have to become this point, but it became

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Speaker 1: such a point of like, oh, you you conservatives don't

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Speaker 1: get it. You're trying to like hold me down and

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Speaker 1: you don't understand, and like I feel so outcast and

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Speaker 1: you'll never get it, and it there kind of outrage

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Speaker 1: made it into a bigger thing than it would have

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Speaker 1: been if they had never said anything. Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: I have the same exact experience, right. So I was

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Speaker 1: a kid, I was in junior high. I'd say, hey, damn,

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Speaker 1: I'll say and you know, I was like an ALTI

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Speaker 1: I would to say I was like a goth kid,

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Speaker 1: but I was saying very alt and I totally had

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Speaker 1: the same experience. I ate up this idea that he

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Speaker 1: was being unfairly persecuted, and I, you know, I felt

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Speaker 1: like I was being unfairly persecuted as this like weirdo

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Speaker 1: ALTI kid as a junior high student. Never mind the

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Speaker 1: fact that like that wasn't actually necessarily happening. That's just

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Speaker 1: like how I felt because I was a teenager. And

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Speaker 1: I think he really really used that exact thing as

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Speaker 1: a way to avoid accountability for his other behavior. And

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Speaker 1: I honestly I agree with you. You know, I listened

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Speaker 1: to Warner's music a lot as a you, and I

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Speaker 1: really really liked him. Like at a poster a Marilyn

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Speaker 1: Manson poster in my locker next to a Prodigy poster Prodigy,

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Speaker 1: And I think that, like, I listened to all different

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Speaker 1: kinds of music, but the only music that had this

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Speaker 1: kind of over the top, exaggerated, like uh climate around

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Speaker 1: it was Marilyn Manson, And so that fed into the

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Speaker 1: idea that he was being unfairly persecuted at the time.

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't know if people remember what it

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Speaker 1: was like to be a young person after Columbine, if

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Speaker 1: you were like a little all tea or if you

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Speaker 1: were all black. It did kind of feel like, you know,

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Speaker 1: the powers that be were cracking down on who you

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Speaker 1: were in the aftermath of that shooting. And so I

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Speaker 1: think that had there not have been such a backlash

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Speaker 1: to the music, Warner's music when it has been another

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Speaker 1: in a mixed bag of stuff that I liked, you know,

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Speaker 1: I liked Prodigy, I like Somepice girls, I like so

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Speaker 1: many different things. But because of this over the top

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Speaker 1: response to his music, it pushed me that much further

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Speaker 1: into this kind of I don't know, dangerous vibe where

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Speaker 1: he gets to position himself that's unfairly persecuted at anybody

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Speaker 1: who doesn't like him or his behavior is just you know,

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Speaker 1: doesn't get it and doesn't get you any seen treating

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Speaker 1: I like it, well, I will say I was older

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Speaker 1: than you also like, yeah, I wasn't. Okay, everybody, we're

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Speaker 1: not going to the time frame of this, but I

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Speaker 1: do find that interesting that we have this conversation because

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Speaker 1: absolutely remembering all of the politicians coming in and saying

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Speaker 1: this is this kind of that whole time frame around

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Speaker 1: the matrix as well as video games and blaming all

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Speaker 1: of these things. Uh, but also how they like to

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Speaker 1: over demonize kind of like how it's happening with Q

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Speaker 1: and On and when we talked about sex trafficking and

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Speaker 1: that they are doing so much theatrical things that that

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Speaker 1: made no sense, that it's overshadowing the actual problems that

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Speaker 1: are happening, and therefore exactly like taking attention away from

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Speaker 1: the true crimes or the things that are so horribly wrong,

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Speaker 1: because it is being overshadowed by the caricature of accusations

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Speaker 1: merely for a platform, merely for politics, and it's so

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Speaker 1: obnoxious because yeah, because of that, Marilyn Manson got this

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Speaker 1: credibility for being um misunderstood a as you had already said.

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Speaker 1: And then also he's able to use that now as

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Speaker 1: a part of his defense today. But I know we're

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Speaker 1: gonna be able to talk about that in a minute, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I mean. And then also, like what you just said,

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Speaker 1: isn't it interesting how the American Family Association and all

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Speaker 1: these politicians we're trying to banish shows. We never did

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Speaker 1: much about guns though. That was just like we we

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Speaker 1: had the conversation about violent video games, the Matrix, black clothing,

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Speaker 1: trench coats, Bran Warner, but not the guns. So it's

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Speaker 1: exactly what you just said of kind of an intense

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Speaker 1: overreach that reaches to the wrong cause, I guess, and

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Speaker 1: then let's the real cause just go un analyzed. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think that, Um. Something that's been on our

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Speaker 1: minds a lot lately is this idea of consent and

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Speaker 1: how our environment is really set up where true consent

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Speaker 1: for women is almost impossible, and this situation being such

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Speaker 1: a grooming situation where you have this person coming in

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Speaker 1: who's much older and who was showing you with attention.

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Speaker 1: And I was saying recently on an episode, like I'm

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Speaker 1: ashamed to admit it, but I shouldn't be because I

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Speaker 1: was raised to be this way. But like when I

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Speaker 1: was eighteen and people can't call me, I'd be like flattered,

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Speaker 1: It's be good. Oh my gosh, I have desirability. That

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Speaker 1: means I have value, um, and that put me in

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Speaker 1: some unsafe situations. So this I hate this. I hate

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Speaker 1: that she was young and there was this older person

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Speaker 1: that she respected and she was getting this attention and

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Speaker 1: it's just absolutely predatory, absolutely praying on her. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean I can really identify I'll just say that. And

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Speaker 1: it's one of those things where you don't necessarily realize

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00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 1: it until you're older, and I mean it applies in

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Speaker 1: this situation too. I want to I want to be

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Speaker 1: careful about how I speak about this because it is

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00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,359
Speaker 1: part of the conversation. But when Evan Rachel Wood was

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Speaker 1: in a relationship with Marilyn Manson early on, and keep

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Speaker 1: in mind, she's eighteen, she's very young. I remember very

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Speaker 1: clearly her an interview saying like, oh, people need to

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Speaker 1: stop saying that I'm being taken advantage of or groomed.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's easy for people to say, like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: now we're supposed to believe her when she says that

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Speaker 1: she's being that she was being groomed or commerced. Well,

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Speaker 1: she was eighteen when that happened. There, she was eighteen

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Speaker 1: when they met. Like, you're so young, and so it's

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Speaker 1: completely tracked with my own personal experiences that you might

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Speaker 1: not have the world experience or just the life experience,

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Speaker 1: or you know, your own understanding of your place in

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Speaker 1: the world at eighteen. It might take a few years

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Speaker 1: for you to look back on that and say, hey,

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Speaker 1: I was being coerced, or hey, you know, was being groomed,

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00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,639
Speaker 1: or something's happened that shouldn't have happened, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: have the language or the voice yet to say I

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Speaker 1: don't want this to happen. And I think that's one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons why this story is one that needs

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Speaker 1: to be told, because I think that's all of ours.

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Speaker 1: I think that's so many of our stories. It's so common.

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Speaker 1: I think it's completely unfair to use that as a

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Speaker 1: reason to not support survivors, not listen to survivors, because

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Speaker 1: it is so common. I think that big portion of

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Speaker 1: this conversation is that the early sexualization of young girls

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Speaker 1: point blank is part of this problem because I know

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Speaker 1: a lot of this conversation. When Evan Rachel Woods came

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Speaker 1: out in her acting career, she was thirteen fourteen and

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Speaker 1: came out with this big indie film that pretty much

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Speaker 1: talked about young women growing older real quick, trying to survive,

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Speaker 1: and thinking that way to survive is to be sexual

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Speaker 1: and grown like that was the whole basis of the movie,

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Speaker 1: which has the whole conversation in itself. But because of that,

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Speaker 1: because of things like that, that's where she came into

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Speaker 1: the eighteen year old and no one, no one listening

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Speaker 1: to the fact that this is grooming. Like I don't

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Speaker 1: care if she's legal now, which is which is a

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00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,840
Speaker 1: bullsh term, the whole barely legal books that I really

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00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:23,719
Speaker 1: want to push everybody in the face every time they

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00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,640
Speaker 1: say it. That's that conversation is really sexualizing these young

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Speaker 1: girls and telling them they are of more worth because

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Speaker 1: they're acting grown, because they are finally in their way

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00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,200
Speaker 1: of being a woman and finding out and not having

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Speaker 1: the support and understanding or people even letting her know

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Speaker 1: the whole concept of consent and why that is a

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00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 1: big conversation that needed to be had way back when,

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Speaker 1: and because of that feeling trapped because she is being

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Speaker 1: told this is what you put yourself in. You knew

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Speaker 1: what you were getting into, which is the formula of

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00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,760
Speaker 1: all of the victim blaming which we see today that

398
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 1: has not gone away, that for some reason is used

399
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:03,400
Speaker 1: by everyone, not just men, women all between, because it's

400
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 1: so hard to let go of that internalized misogyny of saying,

401
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:11,679
Speaker 1: but you knew absolutely, And she explicitly says that in

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00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 1: some of the things that experiences that happened to her

403
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:15,879
Speaker 1: that we'll talk about in a moment, like she explicitly

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00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 1: says exactly what you're referencing that you know, she had

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00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,399
Speaker 1: internalized that she was meant to just go along with whatever,

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00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 1: and that was that was like what she was supposed

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00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 1: to do. And that is something that I think that

408
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,199
Speaker 1: we all internalized and we have to sort of like,

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Speaker 1: I know that I have a lot of un learning

410
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 1: to do around, you know, at like saying no when

411
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 1: something doesn't feel right or when you know, And for

412
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 1: me it has been a lifelong process, and so it

413
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 1: sounds like for her she had to learn that as well.

414
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 1: And as you said, I mean, it starts so early,

415
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 1: and eighteen really is so young. You know. She talks

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00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,160
Speaker 1: about how when she first met Brian Warner, she said

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00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:52,879
Speaker 1: that she really liked him at what he stood for,

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00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,439
Speaker 1: and she wrote in his in her journal that she

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00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 1: thought that he was the hero and the spokesperson of misfits,

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00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:03,360
Speaker 1: and I it just really does sound like he did

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00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,160
Speaker 1: a very good job of making her feel like that

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00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: was true, that she maybe felt like a misfit, and

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00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 1: that he was an advocate for people who felt like

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00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 1: they didn't belong and that he really used that persona

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00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 1: to continue to abuse women and girls pretty much in public.

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00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: There's this great piece in the Atlantic that sums it

427
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: up nicely called Marilyn Manson told us what he was.

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00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,359
Speaker 1: It sums it up very nicely. They right, if we

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00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: believe would and more than a dozen women who have

430
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 1: accused Manson of abuse. Then a strange twist is that

431
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 1: the aftermath of Columbine seems to have enabled Manson to

432
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,679
Speaker 1: become what Would's brother describes in the documentary as quote

433
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 1: a wolf and wolf's clothing. The hysterical invented accusations leveled

434
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: at Manson then that he molested children on stage, killed animals,

435
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 1: had a security guards, drug underage fans with liquid ecstasy,

436
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: minimized other things that might have been happening in plain sight.

437
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 1: But they also allowed Manson to detach his artistic persona

438
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 1: from himself and allowed others to infer that anything offensive

439
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 1: he did was just performance art, winking commentary on America's

440
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: hypocritical and a moral core. And that to me really

441
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: sums up why I'm not comfortable calling him quote Marilyn Manson,

442
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: because you know, inventing this persona and saying that its

443
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: performance art should not be a way to avoid and

444
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 1: excuse accountability for your own abusive behavior. And I believe

445
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 1: that's what the Marilyn Manson persona has allowed him to do. Hello,

446
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 1: Kanye West, exactly exactly, thank you. I mean, it's all

447
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 1: it's all part of the same, like the abusive ball

448
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: of yarn right genius artistic, like it's I can talk

449
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: all day about this, but it's all like two sides

450
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: of the same messed up coin. Well, that's I'm referencing

451
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 1: that Kanye literally is hiding a little bit behind Brian

452
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 1: Warner about bringing him on stage and putting him as

453
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: like he's an ally because we're the same. You're like, yeah,

454
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,919
Speaker 1: you are. That should tell you something. Yeah, I like,

455
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: I remember I had I had forgotten until you just

456
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 1: mentioned that he brought him up on stage during his

457
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: Easis tour, And you know, I think it was meant

458
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,360
Speaker 1: to be like all of these malign people who don't

459
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: understand our genius. And it's like, you're right, I don't

460
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: understand your genius. I think it's abusive, yes, yes, And

461
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: I think you're hiding behind that to get away with it.

462
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 1: And that's problem exactly exactly exactly. This is his thing,

463
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: And in interviews, Warner pretty much is open and in

464
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 1: public about some of the abusive behavior that he has

465
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,439
Speaker 1: put wood through you know he's hot. In a pretty

466
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 1: notorious Spin interview, he talks about how he fantasized about

467
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 1: smashing her head with a sledgehammer, or how after they

468
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 1: broke up and she stopped taking his calls that every

469
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:48,479
Speaker 1: time I called her that day, and I called her

470
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty eight times, I took a razor

471
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: blade and cut myself on my face and on my hands.

472
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: But then later he is able to say, oh, well,

473
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 1: I didn't really mean those things, or I didn't really

474
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 1: feel those things. I didn't actually do those things. I

475
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: was just playing a character. And I believe that that

476
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: excuse allows him to skirt accountability for his actual behavior.

477
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: As Brian Warner. You can't say that that was just

478
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 1: me playing a rock and roll character who is Marilyn

479
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: Manson when you have an actual partner who was accusing

480
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 1: you of abusing her. Yeah, And it's really terrifying because

481
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 1: we're also seeing this in politics form, seeing politicians being like, oh,

482
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: that was just a joke and you didn't get it right,

483
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 1: like doing that same sort of thing, and that's been

484
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 1: that's been really damaging. And also, I again, I grew

485
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: up listening to a lot of like punk rock and

486
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: emo of the like two thousands, early two thousands, and

487
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 1: we were just talking about this, like the lot of

488
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: the lyrics and that, which is a lot of men

489
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:50,360
Speaker 1: singing about like pretty much hating women, um and blaming

490
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: them for their sort of violent actions. And then and

491
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 1: also the TikTok thing you were talking about. Man, it's

492
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: the same thing. We're seeing it again, like being like, no,

493
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just that's is who I am. That's

494
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: my art. Let's I expressed myself. You took it too seriously. Yeah,

495
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: I mean I completely agree. And maybe it's because I'm

496
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 1: older now I'm going back and thinking like, wow, I

497
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: was listening to music that was like there's this brand

498
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: new song where he's like, have another drink and drive

499
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: yourself home. I hope there's ice on all the rooms,

500
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 1: and it's like that's pretty like like I look like

501
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: a very young person screaming along to lyrics that were

502
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: pretty dark. And you know, I'm someone who like I

503
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: love I love music, and I think people should listen

504
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 1: to what moves them, but we should also be a

505
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 1: little critical about whether like what that what that was,

506
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: and and if that was Okay, there's actually a TikTok er.

507
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 1: I can't remember her name off off the top of

508
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: my head. But she goes back and replays kind of

509
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: like scream oh punk bands from or you know, from

510
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 1: that era, and unpacks the way that they are really

511
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 1: unfair to women. And it's like, wow, that I had

512
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 1: no idea you that I was basically singing along happily

513
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: for an anthem that's about disrespecting women. And I'm a woman,

514
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: you know, right, I mean and Andy and I've been

515
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: talking about this for a lot while about the romanticizing

516
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: of abuse, as if it's something like that that should

517
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: be a part of your relationship and not understanding this

518
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 1: is really not good, that these like the constant phone

519
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: calls not great, the the I'm gonna kill myself if

520
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: you don't love me back, like this whole level of like,

521
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: oh my god, what is happening? And we've allowed that

522
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: to be because somehow we've allowed that to be romanticized

523
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: in our head. It's this is true love, right, like,

524
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: this is what it means to be in love, to

525
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: want to die if we're not together, and then going

526
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: beyond that for men and be like if I really

527
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 1: want you have to show you my power, and my

528
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 1: power mats me hurting you maybe or someone else for sure,

529
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: in order to show you that I am the man

530
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: who can protect you quote unquote in so many different ways,

531
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: and like kind of this whole other trope we've allowed

532
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: to be. Yeah, that's just men being men. This is

533
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: this is normal, this is good, right, and no one

534
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 1: really questioning until after the fact of realizing, oh my god,

535
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: there's so much trauma here. Why did we think this

536
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: was okay? Yeah, I completely agree, and we should really

537
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: be asking the question about what we depict as romantic.

538
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: And I think something that you said I can't stop

539
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: thinking about is that it starts so young, Like how

540
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: many of you all remember when if you're a girl

541
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: and then maybe I got a guy when you were

542
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: a kid pushes you on the playground, and some adults

543
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: somewhere it's like, well, it's probably because he likes you that, like,

544
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: you know, like we should not be it happened so

545
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: early that we make it okay when quote unquote affection

546
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: or love is actually abuse, and I should really be

547
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: asking questions about it. Honestly, I just one of my

548
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: go to comfort movie that I kind of tease about

549
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: all the times of rather tui and recently, I like,

550
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: there's a scene in and I was like, oh my god,

551
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: why did we allow this? In which the rat comes

552
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: through the roof and do you see a couple fighting

553
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: with a gun? It goes off and he's like, oh

554
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: my god, goes back and they're kissing and making out

555
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: and he just he just laughs in shrugs and walks off,

556
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: And I'm like, is that okay? This is this wait,

557
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: Like we're not even gonna talk about how people are

558
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: really upset about periods, but this is okay. This scene

559
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: has made it. But you know, like this is that

560
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: level of like it literally was just a blip in

561
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: the screen of a very g rated movie and it's

562
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: romanticizes like oh but they just love each other. That's

563
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: just one of those one one more couple like that. Yeah,

564
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: you know how you know how marriage is, how you argue,

565
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: get at the gun. Later you're kissing, a gun goes

566
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: off and you forget about it. Everything is fine. But

567
00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: that's the thing is, like what are we teaching? I mean,

568
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: I don't want to be one of those people like,

569
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: but what is this movie teaching? But like that is.

570
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: It's it's become so normalized in these conversations that women

571
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 1: really truly a girl, young girls really truly think this

572
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: is the epitome of being a woman. This is the

573
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: epitome of being in a relationship. Tough times means he

574
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: hits me, but I forgive him, Like that's that conversation

575
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: until you realize, oh my god. I couldn't see it

576
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 1: until I left, and until I figured out talking to

577
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: other women how it was not just him loving me,

578
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: that this is him controlling women in general, exactly exactly that. Yeah, gosh,

579
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: I feel like we could go I we need a

580
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: venting session, we need a podcast because I'm like, yeah,

581
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: let's talk about what we're not allowing for consent and

582
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 1: all this stuff. So I know we're not going to

583
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: go too deep into is, but could you go kind

584
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: of briefly into what would says about what Warner put

585
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: her through? Yeah, the list of abuses that he put

586
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: her through are truly horrifying. I honestly don't want to like.

587
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 1: This is why I couldn't finish the documentary because it's

588
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: a lot, So I don't want to spend too much

589
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: time on it, because they really are sickening. But among

590
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: them are the allegations that Warner, who would says, collected

591
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: Nazi memorabilia, So just a really great guy would whip

592
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: her with a Nazi whip and would her mother is

593
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: Jewish and she was raised Jewish herself, and so this

594
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: is obviously really messed up. She said that he also

595
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: deprived her of sleep, forced her to drink his blood

596
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: in a blood pack where he also drank hers, raped

597
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: her while she was sleeping, forced her to take drugs,

598
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: and a lot more of the abuse. She says, I

599
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 1: felt my brain changed, I felt it almost calcified. And

600
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: the world is never the same. And it's just the

601
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: list of And I should also say that the kinds

602
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: of things that she says that he put her through,

603
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,959
Speaker 1: other women who so dated him say the same thing,

604
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: and so it's a lot of it's a lot of

605
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: the same kind of stuff. Like other women that she

606
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: talks to have said that he branded her or like

607
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: carved things into their body like it's it's it's horrifying allegations.

608
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: And so I should mention that Warner he denies these allegations,

609
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: and he says that Wood has been contacting and coercing

610
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,239
Speaker 1: women into saying they were abused by him. He is

611
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: currently suing Would and her Phoenix Rising contributor Il mcgore.

612
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: According to Time, he's accusing the women of a quote

613
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: conspiracy in service of which they supposedly quote secretly recruited, coordinated,

614
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: and pressured perspective accusers to emerge simultaneously with allegations of

615
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: rape and abuse against Warner. Yeah, I find it interesting

616
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: that we have like sixteen women at least coming out

617
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: at the same time, and we're as a society it

618
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: seems so much more ready to be like, but there's

619
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: this video of her at eighteen saying she was into it, right,

620
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: So that's all lies. She manufactured this whole thing, and

621
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: he is downtroud and once again the one that is

622
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: getting unwarranted exactly in women don't make this kind of

623
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 1: stuff up, This idea that they would be simultaneously trying

624
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: to come together to come up with these lies about him. Why, Like,

625
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: who who would do that? Who would want the kind

626
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: of scrutiny that comes with being a public survivor of

627
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: this kind of abuse? Who would welcome that into their lives?

628
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: Some of these women are also, you know, not public figures.

629
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: People don't make this kind of thing up, Like it

630
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: is so rare for people to make up allegations of

631
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: this kind of abuse that it just let alone sixteen

632
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: different people. It's like it just it just doesn't cold water.

633
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 1: It's like, isn't the way it works. And again, probably

634
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: more than sixteen that's coming out. But the conversation is

635
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: too that the actual events and abuse were so similar

636
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: to each other, even the game of throws or something

637
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 1: as may Bianca I think it's her name, she had

638
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 1: similar stories to Wards, like being deprived of food, being

639
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 1: like to cut, like there's so many things. It's like,

640
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: this is beyond just maybees. And I do remember that

641
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: he had one partner who actually was like that didn't

642
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: happen to me, And people lashed onto that story so hard,

643
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 1: and it was kind of like, but that doesn't mean anything.

644
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean it just negates the entirety of the

645
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: story of who he is at this point in time.

646
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: And I can't stand this because it also comes back

647
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: to the point of demonizing these women and shaming them

648
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: in every way possible, taking any work of art that

649
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 1: they did so as actors who may have portrayed a

650
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,760
Speaker 1: nude scene at any point in time. So she's a slut,

651
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: how do you she want? Obviously she knew what she

652
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: was getting into. This whole level of conversations where they

653
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: just completely try to discredit someone based on this and

654
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: really feeling like, obviously, these women are doing it for

655
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,720
Speaker 1: attention when it actually hurt a lot of their careers.

656
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: Evan Rachel was for a long time out of so

657
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 1: many things, as out of projects because of the trauma alone. Yeah,

658
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 1: so he did have a ex partner say he was

659
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: always nice to me. And I'm not going to discount

660
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: what she's saying, but as we know, you know, someone

661
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: being nice to you doesn't mean that they are never

662
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: abusive to other people. And so people absolutely latched onto that,

663
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: and you're absolutely right that it certainly has not helped

664
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 1: the careers or the trajectories of the people who are

665
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: speaking out. And it's just like that's not how it works,

666
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: Like people don't lie about this kind of thing. It

667
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: does not help. It hurt Evan Rachel would to come out,

668
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: She risked a lot to come out, and this idea that, oh,

669
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 1: they're doing it for attention. Who would want this kind

670
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: of attention? Right? Right? And also let's talk about the

671
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: side that Warner is not in jail exactly. He was

672
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: on a damn Kanye West show I I Hate It,

673
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: I Need It, So you might be wondering, well, okay,

674
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 1: in what way is this a tech issue? And so

675
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 1: there is one specific incident in the abuse that Wood

676
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 1: talks about that I want to focus on right now,

677
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: and that is the music video for Warner's song heart

678
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 1: Shaped Glasses. Um That music video features Evan Rachel Wood.

679
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: She was in that video when she was nineteen years old,

680
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: and he kind of casts her as a modern day

681
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: Lolita because apparently the story goes that she was wearing

682
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 1: these heart shaped sunglasses at the party where they met,

683
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 1: and in you know, Lolita wears heart shaped sunglasses in

684
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 1: the book. And so in the documentary, Wood says, of

685
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: the music video, we were doing things that were not

686
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 1: what was pitched to me. We had discussed a simulated

687
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he started

688
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: penetrating me for real, and she goes on to say

689
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 1: it was a really traumatizing experience filming the video. I

690
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: didn't know how to advocate for myself or how to

691
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: say no because I had been conditioned and trained to

692
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: never talk back to just soldier through I felt disgusting,

693
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,839
Speaker 1: like I had done something shameful, and I could tell

694
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: the crew was very uncomfortable and nobody knew what to do.

695
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 1: I was coerced into a commercial sex act under false pretenses.

696
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 1: That was the first crime committed against me, and I

697
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: was essentially raped on camera. And so, according to Wood,

698
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: the music video for Heart Shaped Classes is actually a

699
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: video of her rape, and that video is available, not

700
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 1: to mention, monetized on the platform YouTube as we speak.

701
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 1: Anybody who wants to go see it can look it up.

702
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: And so Warner's campus they deny these allegations, and they

703
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: say that Wood was coherent and involved in the planning

704
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 1: of the video. They say, of all the false claims

705
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: that Rachel Evan Wood is made about Brian Warner, her

706
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: imaginative retelling of the making of the Heart Shaped Classes

707
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: music video fifteen years ago is the most brazen and

708
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: easy to disprove because there were multiple witnesses. So they

709
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: maintain that the scenes in that video were actually simulated. However,

710
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone spoke to a crew member from the video

711
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,760
Speaker 1: shoot under the condition of anonymity, who corroborated Wood's claims, saying,

712
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: I do believe that there were some moments of actual

713
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: intercourse and so that for me is really how this

714
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: becomes a tech issue and a tech accountability issue. Is that,

715
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 1: according to Would, YouTube is promoting housing and monetizing a

716
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: video of where she says she was being sexually assaulted,

717
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 1: and frankly, I'm inclined to believe her. And so the

718
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: question is what is YouTube going to do about this?

719
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: Are they going to just allow a video of a

720
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: sexual assault to be on their platform and continue to

721
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: profit off of it. I would say if that's the

722
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: choice they're making, it's pretty questionable. Yeah, I'm afraid to

723
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: ask what they're making. I you know, YouTube they quickly

724
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 1: took the video down and then they made a donation

725
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: to anti rape organizations. Oh wait, just kidding, they do

726
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: any of that? They they basically so there's a change

727
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: that Art petition with overt signatures calling for YouTube to

728
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,240
Speaker 1: remove the video, and Evan Rachel would share this petition,

729
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 1: and they pretty much have signaled that they're not going

730
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: to take it down. Their spokesperson Jack Malone says, we're

731
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: monitoring the situation closely and we'll take appropriate action if

732
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 1: we determine there is a breach of our creator responsibility guidelines.

733
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: And so this is really why I see this as

734
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 1: a tech accountability issue. You know, YouTube, like most online platforms,

735
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: have community guidelines that users have to follow, and according

736
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: to those community guidelines, content that includes quote non consensual

737
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: sex acts and unwanted sexualization is very much against their

738
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 1: own stated community guidelines. The community guidelines in terms of

739
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,359
Speaker 1: service says that a user can have monetization suspended or

740
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: have their entire channel terminated if their behavior away from

741
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: the platform harms YouTube users, and so to me, it

742
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: seems pretty clear they have publicly stated that their community

743
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: guidelines prevent non consensual sex acts or unwanted sexualization in

744
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,879
Speaker 1: their content. And here we have a video where Evan

745
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: rachel Wood says this is exactly that, and yet they're

746
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: continuing to host this video and profit off of it,

747
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: because we know that's how YouTube makes their money. It's

748
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: from advertisements that are on the content hosted on their platform.

749
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I think that YouTube is really expecting

750
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,720
Speaker 1: people to only grapple with this as a quote celebrity story,

751
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 1: not an issue of YouTube and their own adherence to

752
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: what they say their community guidelines are. And you know,

753
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: I really take issue with that. I really have not

754
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: seen a lot of folks in the tech community talking

755
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,280
Speaker 1: about this story as an example, a really clear example

756
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:29,240
Speaker 1: of YouTube, I think, failing to create a reasonably safe

757
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,280
Speaker 1: environment for its users and and just for the world,

758
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,439
Speaker 1: right and out of curiosity because I don't know much

759
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 1: about how YouTube works. Not take savvy. Is Warner making

760
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: money from this as well? When he gets all these views?

761
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: Oh that is a good question. I actually wouldn't really,

762
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: I'm actually not totally sure if he specifically is making

763
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 1: money from these videos being hosted, but I do know

764
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,919
Speaker 1: that he has a YouTube account, and so just how

765
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: monetization works, I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not I'm not

766
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: able to say one way or another, but I wouldn't

767
00:41:58,040 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: be surprised. I checked to see if the video was

768
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: still on the platform before we started this this talk,

769
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: and you know, right before the video played there's ads,

770
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: and so I can I can imagine I wouldn't be

771
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 1: surprised if he if he is making money from that

772
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 1: as another income stream, And yeah, I guess that's that's

773
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: really the crux of why I wanted to talk about

774
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: this is that this is what happens when women and

775
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: other traditionally marginalized people are not really meaningfully centered and

776
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: reflected in tech. It allows one platforms to harm us

777
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: and make money from our harm and be able to

778
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: do so with without any kind of real accountability and

779
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 1: to it allows for there are so many tech publications

780
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: that are that are missing an opportunity to spotlight this

781
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 1: as a tech issue in terms of the harm that

782
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 1: that YouTube is allowing to be spread on their platform. Right,

783
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the big conversation is that who is

784
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: making money off of sometube with trauma? And this is

785
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: absolutely what is happening, is that they're making money the

786
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 1: off of it and giving views and giving credibility to

787
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: the abuser once again as a musician. And this is

788
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:10,560
Speaker 1: such a whole other conversation of like, you have responsibility

789
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 1: in making sure that people are not continually retraumatized and

790
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 1: or being harmed by your content, and yes, if it

791
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 1: is your platform, you are responsible, point blank exactly. And

792
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: I also think you know YouTube there in their community

793
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: guidelines to say, oh, we can take things down if

794
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 1: there is a confession or a conviction. YouTube is owned

795
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,280
Speaker 1: by Google. Right, Google is one of the biggest companies

796
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: in the world, and how things work in the platform

797
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 1: accountability space, when a huge player in the space does something,

798
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: it creates pressure for other people to do things. And

799
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: so if Google was to do something, that would create

800
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,479
Speaker 1: the conditions for other smaller platforms to follow a suit

801
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 1: because big platforms really do set the tone. And so

802
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: I believe that a company like Google, who owns YouTube

803
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 1: should be able to say, we don't need to wait

804
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 1: for Brian Warner to confess that he, you know, sexually

805
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 1: assaulted Evan rachel Wood on the side of this video.

806
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: We don't have to wait for a legal conviction. We

807
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 1: are Google, and we can set the standard for what

808
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 1: is it is not appropriate on our platform, and a

809
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: video of someone being sexually assaulted is not appropriate. But

810
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 1: I believe that they're really just throwing up their hands

811
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: and saying, not our problem. Call us when he confesses,

812
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 1: call us if there's a conviction, We're gonna just ignore

813
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: this and hope that you do too. I think they

814
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: are absolutely just abdicating responsibility. And guess what, you don't

815
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 1: get to do that when you're Google. When you're a

816
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 1: huge company like Google, you have a responsibility that is very,

817
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: very powerful, and you don't get to just say it's

818
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: not our issue. We're gonna wait for the course to

819
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 1: figure it out. We're gonna wait for him to confess

820
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 1: when you're Google that that is so irresponsible and it

821
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,879
Speaker 1: sets up a dynamic where other platforms can follow suit.

822
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 1: So it really is irresponsible, cowardly and also just harm

823
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 1: whole And again, they're making money from this inaction. They're

824
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: continuing to just let this video rack up millions and

825
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 1: millions and millions of views that are being made from

826
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 1: a video of someone being sexually assaulted. And let's also

827
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: point out that it's a video, not the entire artist,

828
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 1: not his whole genre of music. One video. That was

829
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: the request. It shouldn't be that hard exactly, and I

830
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 1: guess I just I mean, yeah, it shouldn't be this hard.

831
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: And I want so desperately to believe that a different

832
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,720
Speaker 1: world for survivors as possible in the scheme of things.

833
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: So small asking for one the music video to be

834
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 1: removed in the scheme of things, what is that? You know?

835
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: I feel like that is such a small ask that

836
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 1: a survivor has clearly made and they're just able to

837
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: say no. I want to believe in a world where

838
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: survivors can expect more, survivors can expect dignity and respect

839
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: and to be listened to and meaningfully centered. And I

840
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: believe Google has a chance to do that. That they're

841
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:11,240
Speaker 1: just giving away. And it's exactly what you were saying,

842
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: that this is a question of believing women respecting women.

843
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 1: Let's say it was consensual just for the sake of argument,

844
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: and she's like, I don't like this because whatever happened

845
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 1: beforehand in this relationship, it was traumatic. Please take it off.

846
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: That should be enough. That should be enough without having

847
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: to regarditate the same experience as and tell them exactly

848
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: how it hurt you, which is also traumatizing. We shouldn't

849
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: have to be that we have to put on a

850
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: fanfare for someone to believe that we are in pain

851
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,879
Speaker 1: point blank. Yeah. I mean, we shouldn't have to scream

852
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,280
Speaker 1: just to be heard, you know. In this week's episode

853
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 1: of my podcast There Are No Girls on the Internet,

854
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 1: we talked to a survivor and an advocate, Alison Turkos,

855
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 1: who was sexually assaulted in a lift, and she talks

856
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: so eloquently about how she is back, did too regurgitate

857
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,240
Speaker 1: the most traumatic, painful thing that happened to her over

858
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 1: and over and over again, and that we create a

859
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 1: world where that is supposed to be the pathway for

860
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: survivors to get justice. And I don't think that survivors

861
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,920
Speaker 1: A owe you their stories or B should have to

862
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 1: relive this pain just to get anyone to do something.

863
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 1: YouTube has the power. They could, they could decide to

864
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: take this one video down tomorrow. They take things down

865
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 1: all the time for all different kinds of reasons. And

866
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: I believe that making a survivor retell her pain in

867
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: this way to then do nothing, it's just survivors are better,

868
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: Survivors should be able to expect better. Yeah, I mean

869
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 1: that's an excellent point because it's someone who used to

870
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: like upload YouTube videos a lot, and they get taken

871
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: down all the time because the music was too close

872
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 1: to other music. So it's like, we're clearly I've been

873
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: thinking this whole time as we've been talking about this,

874
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: the messages that young girls are picking up from witnessing

875
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: this from a celebrity that they see and this is

876
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 1: the response that she gets. And you know, we care

877
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: more about copyright infringement, the survivors and how that influences

878
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 1: you and what you think is normal and what if

879
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 1: you're going to report um, which again that is very

880
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: personal and complicated and does have a lot of fallout often,

881
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 1: but also just this idea of men getting this kind

882
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: of genius artistic card and the like women that they've

883
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 1: left behind, this path of trauma that they left behind

884
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,839
Speaker 1: that we've determined is okay because we've got this art

885
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: out of it. And that's what it takes. And I've

886
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 1: done I've done some work in acting before, and it

887
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 1: is very you will get that messaging hardcore where it's like,

888
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 1: but this is gonna be great, and this is going

889
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,240
Speaker 1: to launch your career, and this is what it takes.

890
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 1: This is what you have to do because it's so

891
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: competitive and oftentimes it's just like an excuse to take

892
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: advantage of you and then you'll never hear from them again.

893
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: God like if you were And so that's how it

894
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 1: is in a lot of entertainment industries. Let's say that

895
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 1: you were an accountant and someone was like, well, Joe

896
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: is a really gifted accountant, so you're just gonna have

897
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,720
Speaker 1: to put up with him sexually assaulting you and physically

898
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: abusing you and treating you horribly because he's just a

899
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,840
Speaker 1: really talented accountant. Uh No. And it should be the

900
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 1: same way across industries. There shouldn't be these huge carve

901
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: outs for men to get away with abusive behavior and

902
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: have that abusive behavior be repackaged and sold back to

903
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 1: us as genius. No. I completely agree that whether you

904
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: are a musician, an actor, or an accountant, there should

905
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: be some clear standards for how you are expected to behave.

906
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 1: And you know, a music video is a workplace. You

907
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: know that's that has a crew and has people who

908
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: are paid to be there, and you know, there's just

909
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 1: no excuse for that. And I'm I'm unwilling to accept

910
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 1: that that's, you know, the marker of genius, or that

911
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 1: we have to put up with men's powerful men ends

912
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 1: bad or abusive behavior to get great art. No, I'm

913
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 1: just unwilling. That's unacceptable to me. Agreed, Agreed, I can't wait.

914
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 1: We gotta have a venting session on I need it.

915
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 1: I obviously I need it. I feel like we all do.

916
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: I can feel it in me. Um Well. In the meantime,

917
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 1: thanks so much for bringing this topic to us, Bridget

918
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: and giving it the nuance that it deserves. Always appreciated.

919
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 1: Where can the good listeners find you? Well, I would

920
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 1: love it if you listen to my podcast. There are

921
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 1: no girls on the internet. Not all of our conversations

922
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 1: are about heavy, sad issues, but we would love to

923
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 1: have you listen. You can check it out on this

924
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,880
Speaker 1: very network. I Heart Radio. Can follow me on Instagram

925
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 1: at Bridget Marie in d C or on Twitter at

926
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 1: Bridget Marie. Yes and definitely do that. And we can't

927
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 1: wait to talk some more, Bridget. Maybe we got some

928
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 1: other things in the works coming up, very exciting, so

929
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: look out for that. Listeners. Um if you would like

930
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 1: the emails that you can our emails Sefidium, stuff that

931
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 1: I Hurt Me you dot com. You can find us

932
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 1: on Twitter at most of podcast or Instagram A stuff

933
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: under Told You. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina.

934
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: We love you, Christina, Yes, and thanks to you for

935
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 1: listening Stuff under Told You his prediction of I Heart Radio.

936
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the heart

937
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your

938
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 1: favorite shows.