Speaker 1: If you don't know what you're really like, there's nothing
Speaker 1: you can do to change. You can't move forward.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers
Speaker 2: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
Speaker 2: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 2: think ring true, and yet for many of us, our
Speaker 2: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 2: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 2: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 2: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 2: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 2: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 2: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 2: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. We
Speaker 2: hope you'll enjoy this episode from the archive. Thanks for
Speaker 2: joining us. Our guest on this episode is Anne Bogel,
Speaker 2: the creator of the popular blog Modern Missus Darcy and
Speaker 2: the podcast What Should I Read Next. She's the author
Speaker 2: of many books, including her newest book, Reading People, How
Speaker 2: seeing the world through the lens of personality changes everything.
Speaker 3: Hi, Anne, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you for having me.
Speaker 3: I'm happy to have you on and talk with you
Speaker 3: about your latest book, which is called Reading People, How
Speaker 3: seeing the world through the lens of personality changes everything.
Speaker 3: You're also the host of a podcast called What Should
Speaker 3: I Read Next? And listeners who closely follow us know
Speaker 3: that I had a short interview with Anne sometime I
Speaker 3: think around Thanksgiving to sort of cross promote some of
Speaker 3: our shows. We're both on the Wondering Network. But now
Speaker 3: we're going to do a full interview and we're going
Speaker 3: to talk about reading and her book. But before we
Speaker 3: get started, let's start like we always do with the parable.
Speaker 3: There's a grandmother who's talking with her granddaughter and she says,
Speaker 3: in life, there are two wolves inside of us that
Speaker 3: are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which
Speaker 3: represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the
Speaker 3: other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and
Speaker 3: hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops and thinks about
Speaker 3: it for a second and looks up at her grandmother says, well, grandmother,
Speaker 3: which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed.
Speaker 3: So I'd like to start off by asking you what
Speaker 3: that parable means to you in your life and in
Speaker 3: the work that you do.
Speaker 1: Well, that's such a great story, and even though I've
Speaker 1: heard you tell it many times, it never gets old. Well,
Speaker 1: that's so interesting, and I know you've had some guests
Speaker 1: come back to your show. I'm interested to hear if
Speaker 1: it's the kind of story that means different things to
Speaker 1: you at different stages of your life. But what I'm
Speaker 1: hearing now is that it's not just what you choose
Speaker 1: to pay attention to, but that it really influences what
Speaker 1: kind of action you take in your life. And what
Speaker 1: I mean by that is I did write a book
Speaker 1: about personality, so I spent three years like in it,
Speaker 1: finding out like what makes us who we are, and
Speaker 1: how much we do or do not have the power
Speaker 1: to influence that, and what things we do have control over.
Speaker 1: And I've learned that there's an enormous difference between pretending
Speaker 1: things aren't the way they are and striving to make
Speaker 1: them different. So now when I listen to you tell
Speaker 1: that story, I think about the proactive changes or decisions
Speaker 1: we make in our lives every day to become or
Speaker 1: act like a certain kind of person. And I mean
Speaker 1: that in a good way I don't mean like pretending,
Speaker 1: and how that's so very different from sticking your head
Speaker 1: in the sand or your fingers in your ears and
Speaker 1: going la la la la lah and pretending everything is fine.
Speaker 1: And in my work, I wrote this book about personality,
Speaker 1: but for eight years now I've written primarily about what's
Speaker 1: so important about the reading life in my work online.
Speaker 4: In books.
Speaker 1: And what I've come to believe is that when you
Speaker 1: have a vibrant reading life, it makes your life better,
Speaker 1: rich or fuller. You're more self aware of what you
Speaker 1: want and the direction you're heading in, and I think
Speaker 1: that spills over into the rest of your life as well.
Speaker 1: When you develop a stronger reading life, the rest of
Speaker 1: your life improves. And so I'm constantly thinking about what
Speaker 1: we are putting into our brains, what things we're choosing
Speaker 1: to think about every day, and just watching how that
Speaker 1: ought to if we're paying attention, flow out into our
Speaker 1: actions when we move into the world.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's two things you said there that I think
Speaker 3: are so useful. The first is about you know, not
Speaker 3: sticking your head in the sand, and I occasionally, you know,
Speaker 3: people will take the parable as you should only have
Speaker 3: good thoughts. You should only feel happier, should only feel
Speaker 3: kind or generous, And I think that's not really the point.
Speaker 3: The point, like you said, is here's what is right,
Speaker 3: whatever that emotion, situation, whatever it is, here's what it is.
Speaker 3: But then I'm going to be conscious and choiceful Is
Speaker 3: that a word? I don't think it is. I'm going
Speaker 3: to be conscious about the choices that I make. What
Speaker 3: am I going to do with what is? And I
Speaker 3: love that you point that out. And then I also
Speaker 3: agree with you about reading. My favorite place in the
Speaker 3: world is probably a library, and second favorite might be
Speaker 3: a bookstore, just in the libraries ahead of it, because
Speaker 3: it has more books usually and they're free. But so
Speaker 3: I agree with you. I think that reading is so essential.
Speaker 3: One of the things that I lament a little bit
Speaker 3: about the current role I'm in is that I'm reading
Speaker 3: all the time for the show, which I love, but
Speaker 3: it limits the scope of my reading a little bit,
Speaker 3: and I'm a huge fiction reader, and I do less
Speaker 3: of it than I would like. It's a worthwhile trade off,
Speaker 3: but I do occasionally miss that. So I love when
Speaker 3: I have a little bit of a lull that I
Speaker 3: can get into a good fiction book. So why don't
Speaker 3: we start there and then we'll head into personality. But
Speaker 3: what are a couple fiction books that you have read
Speaker 3: recently that you have loved? Ooh, A couple, yeah, I know,
Speaker 3: not twenty six.
Speaker 1: In book club last night we talked about Home Fire,
Speaker 1: a relatively new novel by Kamala Shamsy. It came out
Speaker 1: I think August or September twenty seventeen, but we just
Speaker 1: had our book club discussion last night. And that's a
Speaker 1: really interesting book because it has a nerdy appeal, and
Speaker 1: that is that it's a twenty first century retelling of
Speaker 1: Sophocle's play Antigony. But the way she's redone this for
Speaker 1: the twenty first century is she's made this this story
Speaker 1: about love and family and citizenship and obligations and terrorism
Speaker 1: and politics, and she has just created this really fascinating
Speaker 1: story that is so interesting to read. And when I
Speaker 1: first heard an Antigony retelling like that sounds like a yawner,
Speaker 1: I was skeptical. But it's so good and I was
Speaker 1: really impressed by just knowing the fact that she's retelling
Speaker 1: this play that came out it's something like the fourth
Speaker 1: century BC. It is a really long time ago and
Speaker 1: is human beings were still struggling with so many of
Speaker 1: the same issues, like how do we balance what is
Speaker 1: legal against what we perceive to be right? And this
Speaker 1: person we owe a strong loyalty to, but this this
Speaker 1: other person that we also feel committed to, and what
Speaker 1: we do is people when those values are in conflict,
Speaker 1: And it was just so interesting and the fact that
Speaker 1: she made it about terrorism and politics was just fascinating.
Speaker 1: I was really impressed with the way she did that.
Speaker 1: And oh, let me think. I also love and have
Speaker 1: read several times this spring actually and a Maggie O'Farrell
Speaker 1: novel called This Must Be the Place, which is a
Speaker 1: really interesting family saga told from many different points of
Speaker 1: view of all the characters. In this story, you get
Speaker 1: inside everybody's head. She has one chapter that's an auction catalog.
Speaker 1: She has one chapter that's an interview in like a
Speaker 1: gossip magazine that's going very, very badly for the subject involved.
Speaker 1: And I just love how she tells this family story
Speaker 1: that has lots and lots of sorrow. We've been through,
Speaker 1: Like everybody in this story has experienced something horrible or
Speaker 1: they're dealing with this massive incumberence, like addiction or a
Speaker 1: physical disability, or they're greathing the loss of a loved one,
Speaker 1: but they are working it through some to better effects
Speaker 1: than others. It makes me think you're parable. But I
Speaker 1: just love it so much. I love stories where that
Speaker 1: seem realistic but are a little more interesting and dramatic,
Speaker 1: usually in a bad way than my usual life. And
Speaker 1: I love it when people's stories on the page really
Speaker 1: have emotional resonance and make me think about my own
Speaker 1: life and what I want from it in my place
Speaker 1: in the world, and you know, all that deep thought stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that one of the things I love
Speaker 3: about literature that can do this is it's a good
Speaker 3: portal into other people's lives, depending on what you're reading,
Speaker 3: but in most cases that what that portal tells us
Speaker 3: at a very broad level is that we all go
Speaker 3: through really hard crap, and there's just something I think
Speaker 3: that's so normalizing about that. And I think it's one
Speaker 3: of the things on this show that you know, I've
Speaker 3: tried to emphasize over and over and work with, which
Speaker 3: is that you know, suffering is not personal. You know,
Speaker 3: pain that happens in life is not a failure. That's
Speaker 3: part of what's going to happen. It's not that all
Speaker 3: life is that way, but it's going to happen, and
Speaker 3: it's not a personal failing, and people aren't alone and
Speaker 3: going through that that. Everyone goes through stuff like this
Speaker 3: at some juncture in life, and I think literature can
Speaker 3: really be a great way to explore that in a
Speaker 3: more in depth way than a lot of other methods.
Speaker 1: Yes, I totally agree, And that's one of the main
Speaker 1: reasons I like to read. And that's so interesting because
Speaker 1: now that you articulate that idea about suffering being universal,
Speaker 1: it's interesting. I can see in the people that I
Speaker 1: interact with every day when something bad happens, they think,
Speaker 1: where did I go wrong?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 4: But you didn't go wrong. This is life.
Speaker 3: Yep, this is life.
Speaker 1: It's just which is weirdly encouraging and depressing at the
Speaker 1: same time.
Speaker 3: Right right. I use the words so for in a
Speaker 3: minute ago, and I actually make a real distinction between
Speaker 3: pain and suffering. And listeners have probably heard this a
Speaker 3: thousand times, but you know, I think that like pain is,
Speaker 3: you know, we're gonna have pain in life. Bad things
Speaker 3: are going to happen to a suffering tends to be
Speaker 3: to me the distinction of all the stuff that we
Speaker 3: layer on top of that that's optional. And one of
Speaker 3: those most common sufferings that we add to our burdens
Speaker 3: is what did I do wrong? Or why me? Or
Speaker 3: this shouldn't be happening, And all those thoughts, while perfectly
Speaker 3: normal and almost probably unavoidable, are also things that make
Speaker 3: what we're going through worse. And sometimes I think that's
Speaker 3: almost the best we can do, is just not make
Speaker 3: it worse, you know, I mean, just like, but that's
Speaker 3: a remarkable relief to not make it worse. It can
Speaker 3: be pretty remarkable in how much better.
Speaker 1: It feels, funny because it's true. Yep, yep, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3: I've not looked at all your podcasts are all your blogs,
Speaker 3: but I've looked through some of to see some different
Speaker 3: reading ideas. And there was somebody that I love that
Speaker 3: seems to be right up your alley that I haven't seen.
Speaker 3: And maybe it's just because I haven't seen it, but
Speaker 3: Kristin Hannah.
Speaker 1: You know, I have read, probably have her works and
Speaker 1: have enjoyed it over the years. But oh my goodness,
Speaker 1: I loved the Grade alone. I thought that was an
Speaker 1: amazing book.
Speaker 3: Me too, Yeah, the last two of hers. That one
Speaker 3: and I think it was The Nightingale just blew me away,
Speaker 3: both of them. It's just but it strikes me, is
Speaker 3: that exactly what we're talking about now, which is this
Speaker 3: view into somebody's life and how they deal with their
Speaker 3: challenges and just very nuanced, very rich, but also captivating.
Speaker 3: And you on your blog you've got sections. I think
Speaker 3: you call it literary fiction that's also easy to read
Speaker 3: or something. And I think that's what I prefer too,
Speaker 3: is that there's some depth to it, there's some meaning
Speaker 3: to it, there's some clear thought and nuance about the
Speaker 3: human condition, and it's a pleasure to read. You can
Speaker 3: get lost in it, and so I think we probably
Speaker 3: would like a lot of the similar books.
Speaker 1: I'm glad to hear that. And yeah, I thought that
Speaker 1: novel was very well written. I thought the craft was excellent,
Speaker 1: but I could not wait to find out what happened next.
Speaker 3: I saw another post on your website about books that
Speaker 3: I read within like twenty four hours, and I think
Speaker 3: that that book, The Great Alone, is the most recent
Speaker 3: book and it's been a little while of something that
Speaker 3: kept me up till like four in the morning reading
Speaker 3: I could not put it down. I knew I needed to.
Speaker 3: I kept trying, and I'd lay down for a minute
Speaker 3: and I'd be like, oh, forget it, and I'd just
Speaker 3: get back up and start reading it again because it
Speaker 3: was so compelling to me.
Speaker 1: And it's a long book. It's four hundred something pages,
Speaker 1: I know, but I did the same thing. Well. I
Speaker 1: didn't finish it at four in the morning. Luckily, I
Speaker 1: think I started that early on a Saturday morning, so
Speaker 1: good to hinting myself on the back. I didn't know
Speaker 1: what a good decision that was at the time, but
Speaker 1: I was just so nervous for the characters. I really
Speaker 1: I needed to know if they were going to be
Speaker 1: okay and if something terrible was going to happen to them.
Speaker 1: I needed to have it in the past, tense and
Speaker 1: get it over with. So I just kept turning and
Speaker 1: turning and turning.
Speaker 3: Yep. It's remarkably well done, and I send out each
Speaker 3: month in our newsletter correcommendation. I'm trying to think of
Speaker 3: whether that one was in there in one of the
Speaker 3: recent ones. I'm pretty sure it was because I loved
Speaker 3: it so much. Do you ever feel like life is
Speaker 3: just one problem? After another, you finally feel like maybe
Speaker 3: there's a break, and then bam, another problem. This is
Speaker 3: how it is for many of us. But there is
Speaker 3: a better way to respond, a way of responding that
Speaker 3: brings greater ease into your life and return some of
Speaker 3: the energy that the problems drained from you. We are
Speaker 3: hosting a free live masterclass on Sunday, March third, called
Speaker 3: Learn the Keystone Habit to unlock energy and ease in
Speaker 3: your life. In it, I will teach you how to
Speaker 3: tap into resources already within you so that life feels
Speaker 3: less like a never ending fight and more like an
Speaker 3: ever evolving dance. You will learn the number one source
Speaker 3: of unhappiness that drains your energy and keeps you feeling stuck,
Speaker 3: and a simple mindset shift you can make right away
Speaker 3: so that life doesn't feel like such a constant struggle.
Speaker 3: This will be a live event and you'll have a
Speaker 3: chance to interact with me and each other. I've really
Speaker 3: grown to love these community events where we get to
Speaker 3: meet each other and deepen our connections, and I hope
Speaker 3: that you can become part of that. Go to oneufeed
Speaker 3: dot net slash live to learn more and register for
Speaker 3: this free event again that's one you feed dot net
Speaker 3: slash live. I hope to see you there. Let's turn
Speaker 3: and talk about personality, because we could spend the whole
Speaker 3: interview on books easily, but let's talk about personality because
Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of really interesting things. Your
Speaker 3: book is called Reading People, how seeing the world through
Speaker 3: the lens of personality changes everything. And what you're really
Speaker 3: talking about in the book is here are these various
Speaker 3: types of personality assessments. We all tend to take them,
Speaker 3: whether they be something incredibly in depth like the Myers
Speaker 3: Briggs or as you joke, like the BuzzFeed quiz about
Speaker 3: like what kind of cheese am I? So we all
Speaker 3: are intrigued by that stuff. And what I thought about
Speaker 3: the book that was a different take was it was
Speaker 3: your experience with how you used these different assessments to
Speaker 3: make your life better. And I thought that was really
Speaker 3: a useful way to look at it. But let's start
Speaker 3: with I think the direction we'll take this is what
Speaker 3: is personality? And then I think a lot of the
Speaker 3: book was about to what extent and you mentioned this
Speaker 3: in your introduction, to what extent are we able to
Speaker 3: change ourselves? And not to ourselves? And what should we
Speaker 3: even try to change and not change? And I think
Speaker 3: it's a really fascinating and nuanced question that I think
Speaker 3: you address in lots of different places. So let's start
Speaker 3: with what is personality?
Speaker 4: Wow?
Speaker 1: See that sounds like such a simple question, and that
Speaker 1: has been debated for hundreds of years what it really means?
Speaker 1: So in the book, what I'm talking about when I
Speaker 1: talk about personality are those things about us that we
Speaker 1: really can't change. I'm not talking about if you're kind
Speaker 1: or compassionate or generous, which are character traits that we
Speaker 1: do now see psychologists already say like, well, it's actually
Speaker 1: fairly difficult to become more conscientious or more generous unless
Speaker 1: you have like a real serious epiphany.
Speaker 4: You can move the needle, but just a little.
Speaker 1: But I'm talking about those things that are more or
Speaker 1: less hardwired. We were born an introvert or an extrovert,
Speaker 1: or you know, we're someplace on the spectrum. And while
Speaker 1: most of us tend to become a little more introverted
Speaker 1: over time, and while we can train ourselves to be
Speaker 1: in ways that make us more comfortable or quote unquote
Speaker 1: successful in certain situations, those are coping strategies not real
Speaker 1: fundamental change. Nobody decides they're going to be an extrovert
Speaker 1: and becomes one because they willed it to be. So
Speaker 1: I'm talking about those things about how our mind is
Speaker 1: inclined to work, how we tend to think about the world,
Speaker 1: the way we see things, and.
Speaker 4: It's hard to capture.
Speaker 1: But that's why I like the lens of these personality
Speaker 1: frameworks that let you systematically approach the way that you
Speaker 1: are inclined to think, feel, act about certain behaviors with
Speaker 1: this systematic framework that lets you think about one aspect
Speaker 1: of yourself at a time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you walk through a lot of different personality
Speaker 3: type tests, and this is what I'll say about personality
Speaker 3: tests and me, I find them maddening because I end
Speaker 3: up if there's a middle on everything, that's where I
Speaker 3: end up. Every question. I'm like, well, I just feel
Speaker 3: like none of it feel to me incredibly clear, which
Speaker 3: I actually think as I step back and look at
Speaker 3: my personality kind of goes Yeah, I think that's kind
Speaker 3: of where I gravitate too. Is you know a very
Speaker 3: you know, if you take a personality test, I look
Speaker 3: like I could almost be four different things. You know,
Speaker 3: It's like, well, where's the nuance in So I find
Speaker 3: them to be challenging for me in that regard because
Speaker 3: some of the questions I'm like, well, the answer is
Speaker 3: it depends.
Speaker 4: Can I tell you something?
Speaker 1: Though, Eric, I do the same thing, and I wish
Speaker 1: I had known at the very beginning before I encounter
Speaker 1: my first personality test, whether or not those questions on
Speaker 1: a solid personality assessment, like I'm thinking of something like
Speaker 1: Myers Briggs, which psychologists do have some beef with sometimes
Speaker 1: because they don't think it measures you know, certain things,
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. We won't get into that right now,
Speaker 1: but some people make quizes on the internet. They really
Speaker 1: aren't worth anything. But I'm just saying, as opposed to that,
Speaker 1: it says.
Speaker 4: A lot about your personality. Truly.
Speaker 1: I'm not being silly about whether or not you can
Speaker 1: imagine your acting in all those different ways. You're not
Speaker 1: a black and white thinker. I'm guessing no, no, very much.
Speaker 1: Not so if what we're talking about when we talk
Speaker 1: about these personality frameworks is that it captures our characteristic
Speaker 1: patterns of thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. The fact that you're
Speaker 1: not a binary thinker does say a lot about yours. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I understand that doesn't help you answer the question,
Speaker 1: but it might still confirm something that you had a
Speaker 1: hunch about, which is that you're good at seeing lots
Speaker 1: of person or lots of possibilities.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And there's two things that you put early in
Speaker 3: the book that I thought were really important, because you
Speaker 3: talk about the importance of getting these things right, and
Speaker 3: you talked about your early mistakes were that you didn't
Speaker 3: answer the questions exactly as you are, but kind of
Speaker 3: what you wished you were or what you thought you
Speaker 3: should be. And that's a really subtle nuance, and I
Speaker 3: think is very very important because I think we all
Speaker 3: have a sense of here's the right way to be. Now.
Speaker 3: I don't think there is, but most of us think
Speaker 3: there is, and so then we're kind of, you know,
Speaker 3: we're answering questions in that. And then the other thing
Speaker 3: that I thought you said that was really helpful in
Speaker 3: this was that it's easy to type yourself by paying
Speaker 3: attention to how you're likely to screw up.
Speaker 1: Yes, it is the first thing you said about how
Speaker 1: it's important to pay attention and get it right to
Speaker 1: identify your personality, not as how you wish you were.
Speaker 1: And it's true there's not one right way to act.
Speaker 1: But in some careers, in some families, in some situations,
Speaker 1: there is a personality type that is valued more than others.
Speaker 1: And that's not a good thing, but it's still a
Speaker 1: true thing in many settings. So it's easy for us
Speaker 1: to unconsciously take that on. But that idea really goes
Speaker 1: back to the wolves where you're talking about in the parable,
Speaker 1: how pretending doesn't make it so. And if you don't
Speaker 1: know how things, if you don't know what you're really like,
Speaker 1: there's nothing you can do to change. You can't move
Speaker 1: forward and really knowing what kind of person you are.
Speaker 1: And again, I hate to use words like that because
Speaker 1: they're thrown around as cliche so often, but truly identifying
Speaker 1: your characteristic patterns of thoughts, feelings, and behavior can open
Speaker 1: up the world to you in so many ways, and
Speaker 1: it would be a shame to pass that by.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that there's a common I don't
Speaker 3: know if it's a criticism, but that you know, a
Speaker 3: personality test can be a way to put ourselves in
Speaker 3: a box, right, And I think we also have to
Speaker 3: watch for confirmation bias, right, which is once we think.
Speaker 3: Once we think one thing, we see that thing everywhere.
Speaker 3: And so if I take a personality test, that tells
Speaker 3: me I'm X, and I start looking for examples of
Speaker 3: me being X, I'm gonna be X. But I think
Speaker 3: you make a very important distinction, and I think the
Speaker 3: really useful one is that personality are things like introversion, extraversion,
Speaker 3: highly sensitive people. You know whether you have a higher
Speaker 3: happiness set point or a lower happiness set point. But
Speaker 3: then you go on to make a distinction of two
Speaker 3: other key things. And it's interesting because if I were
Speaker 3: to break down the way we approach things on the show,
Speaker 3: we would do it very similar to this. I'm always
Speaker 3: talking about, you know, the surroendy prayer, what can you change?
Speaker 3: What can't you change? And so so personality is okay,
Speaker 3: let's just say that's the that's the part that we're
Speaker 3: not going to do much with. That's the genetic inheritance
Speaker 3: to some degree, right, But the two things that are
Speaker 3: much more malleable, and again we can debate how malleable
Speaker 3: they are or not malleable. I'm in the more malleable
Speaker 3: with a lot of effort. Camp is our character and
Speaker 3: our behavior and and so as people who listen to
Speaker 3: the show know that I, you know, I'm all about
Speaker 3: behavior all the time. I'm all you know, we're always
Speaker 3: talking about how sometimes we can't think our way into
Speaker 3: right action. We have to act our way into right thinking.
Speaker 3: And that's because behaviors are are more malleable. And so
Speaker 3: I think that the way that you're talking about using
Speaker 3: personality tests is really the opposite of being a way
Speaker 3: to limit ourselves to say, like here's the box I
Speaker 3: put myself in, but much more as a way to
Speaker 3: understand ourselves in certain case, to arrange our life and
Speaker 3: our environment in a way that is going to work
Speaker 3: best for us given who we are, and to also
Speaker 3: use those things to give us a little bit of
Speaker 3: a break on being hard on ourselves when we just realize, like,
Speaker 3: you know what, that's the way I'm going to react
Speaker 3: to certain things, and you know that's what's going to happen. Again,
Speaker 3: there's degrees of improvement, but maybe the initial reaction I'm
Speaker 3: never going to change.
Speaker 1: Yes, I agree wholeheartedly, and I understand where this impulse
Speaker 1: comes to reject the whole idea, like, oh, I don't
Speaker 1: want to be put in a box. However, when you
Speaker 1: go into the store, you probably know about what size
Speaker 1: you're looking for when you need your new running shoes. Like,
Speaker 1: my hair is brown, it just is, and I can
Speaker 1: change it would die if I wanted to, but that
Speaker 1: is just part of who I am. However, you will
Speaker 1: hear people say, oh, I'm an ij so I couldn't
Speaker 1: possibly fill in the blank. Or people will say to
Speaker 1: me like, oh, I know you have to be an
Speaker 1: extrovert because you have a podcast and effort would die
Speaker 1: if they had to talk to people all day. And
Speaker 1: that's just not true. And you know, we can do
Speaker 1: any number of things.
Speaker 4: We can't.
Speaker 1: We don't have options for close to us because we
Speaker 1: are or are not a certain personality type according to
Speaker 1: whatever framework you're going with. However, I do think you're
Speaker 1: right and that we understand fundamental things about who we are,
Speaker 1: how our mind tends to operate. We really can enable
Speaker 1: ourselves to have an easier time changing our behavior, improving
Speaker 1: our character in the direction we want to go. Those
Speaker 1: are not easy things. They are absolutely possible, But it
Speaker 1: is difficult to change your behavior and it is difficult
Speaker 1: to change your character, So why not make it easier
Speaker 1: on yourself? By understanding those things that are true about
Speaker 1: you that you can put to work for you instead
Speaker 1: of allowing to limit you.
Speaker 3: Right, I mean, I think there's a few things that
Speaker 3: are obviously the effort that we spend on changing things
Speaker 3: we can't change is wasted effort, and so it takes
Speaker 3: a certain amount of effort to make real change, and
Speaker 3: so let's put that effort where it can actually make
Speaker 3: a difference. It's also that idea of structuring things I
Speaker 3: think we all underestimate myself included the importance of our
Speaker 3: environment around us in who we become, how we act,
Speaker 3: what we do. I mean, the classic simple explanation, because
Speaker 3: I work with people on behavior and actually making change
Speaker 3: and transformation. The classic stupid example, right, is that if
Speaker 3: you don't want to eat junk food, don't have it
Speaker 3: in the house. Right, that's your environment. But that's pretty profound.
Speaker 3: I mean, it sounds simple, but do it and it
Speaker 3: makes a big difference. And so there's so many different
Speaker 3: things that are like that. And you use a phrase
Speaker 3: in the book, I'm just going to read what you
Speaker 3: say as you say, I'm the kind of person who
Speaker 3: blank is a powerful phrase no matter what goes in
Speaker 3: that blank. Our identities evolve as we move through life.
Speaker 3: Sometimes this happens without our even noticing, and I think
Speaker 3: that is such a profound statement that I watch so closely,
Speaker 3: for I'm the kind of person who X like, I
Speaker 3: work with people on making changes in their life, and
Speaker 3: so I'll often hear people say I'm the kind of
Speaker 3: person who just can't stick with anything. I'm the kind
Speaker 3: of person who has no self control. I'm the kind
Speaker 3: of person and my experience is those are traits that
Speaker 3: can be or behaviors that can be changed. I mean,
Speaker 3: there was a point where you know, all I did
Speaker 3: every day was steel and put an eel in my arm.
Speaker 3: You know, I'm a long long way from there, so
Speaker 3: so big change is possible in those ways. But I
Speaker 3: worry about that. I'm the kind of person who X.
Speaker 3: But the flip side of that is one of the
Speaker 3: things you talk about is like highly sensitive people, and
Speaker 3: we'll move to that next. A trait of highly sensitive
Speaker 3: people is the stimulus around them is, you know, up loud.
Speaker 3: That's the only way I can think to put it.
Speaker 3: And so I think I have some of those traits,
Speaker 3: like if somebody is eating really loudly next to me.
Speaker 3: I can't ignore it. I know that that's such a
Speaker 3: trivial thing to care about. I know it's but yet
Speaker 3: despite all my efforts, I mean, you know, all the
Speaker 3: changes I've made in my life, that one it just
Speaker 3: makes me crazy. If there are five or six people
Speaker 3: talking at the same time, I can't filter it out.
Speaker 3: So that's the sort of thing that I think is
Speaker 3: a useful understanding of personality because I go, oh, okay,
Speaker 3: that's that's kind of the way I am. So what
Speaker 3: do I do with that? First, I don't think I'm
Speaker 3: an awful person because I can't do it. And secondly,
Speaker 3: then I try and limit my exposure to those situations.
Speaker 3: So I think that's a really useful example of personality.
Speaker 3: And then you go on to talk about Carol Dwek,
Speaker 3: and we've had Carol on the show the fixed versus
Speaker 3: growth mindset. One of the more fundamental lessons that I
Speaker 3: think I've gotten from this show is to look in
Speaker 3: any situation and where am I being in a fixed
Speaker 3: versus growth mindset? And So what I liked about your
Speaker 3: book was it was very clear about here some things
Speaker 3: that you know, probably a fixed mindset makes sense about,
Speaker 3: like how tall I am, you know, being the most
Speaker 3: obvious example, but in the areas where a growth mindset
Speaker 3: is a more useful tool.
Speaker 4: But you could wear heels, and so could I.
Speaker 2: And I do.
Speaker 3: Oh well, never scratch up from the record. Course, nothing
Speaker 3: wrong with anybody wearing heels, don't. Don't anybody take that wrong,
Speaker 3: nothing else. As a matter of fact, the truth be told.
Speaker 3: I have worn heels. Okay, it's out there. Now we're
Speaker 3: gonna move on.
Speaker 4: I didn't mean that in a gendered kind of way.
Speaker 1: What I was thinking, though, was that I'm very familiar
Speaker 1: with Carol Dweck's work, and I think, I think eric
Speaker 1: that I'm the kind of person who has a growth mindset.
Speaker 1: But every once in a while I surprise myself by
Speaker 1: catching myself in a fixed mindset in a place I
Speaker 1: didn't realize. Yes, So all I mean is if you
Speaker 1: write something off immediately like oh, I'm five nine and
Speaker 1: I will be forever and there's nothing I can do
Speaker 1: about it, you could be forcing yourself to be stuck
Speaker 1: when that's not necessary. And height might be a silly example,
Speaker 1: but we also think things like I'm the kind of
Speaker 1: person who could never stick with an exercise plan or
Speaker 1: I'm the who could never do a handstand or a
Speaker 1: pull up, or I'm the kind of person who you know,
Speaker 1: It's funny. The kind of email I get the most
Speaker 1: about this book and about personality has to do with
Speaker 1: highly sensitive people. And I get emails that say I
Speaker 1: get them every week that say I thought I was
Speaker 1: the kind of person who wasn't cut out for family life,
Speaker 1: but it turns out I'm just a highly sensitive person
Speaker 1: who cannot tolerate six people talking to me at once,
Speaker 1: and knowing that about myself is fine. So just being
Speaker 1: clear on if the limitation we perceive is actually accurate
Speaker 1: is really important. But if we don't know to ask
Speaker 1: ourselves those questions, then then we are stuck.
Speaker 3: Yep, that's why I mean, I do think the wisest
Speaker 3: three lines ever written are probably that first part of
Speaker 3: the Serenity Prayer. I mean, the gold is in that wisdom.
Speaker 3: You know, what can I change and what can I
Speaker 3: I mean quality of I mean, that just is such
Speaker 3: a huge disclaimer. The thing about Carol Dweck also that
Speaker 3: really struck me and I thought was such a useful
Speaker 3: thing was that we can be both in a fixed
Speaker 3: and growth mindset about different things. It's not a I'm
Speaker 3: always like I'm fixed mindset about everything or I'm growth mindset.
Speaker 3: It's really interesting to see where I or other people
Speaker 3: bump up against the fixed mindset.
Speaker 1: And I love hearing how other people do encounter that
Speaker 1: fixed mindset or the growth mindset in ways I didn't
Speaker 1: expect in their own lives because it helps me come
Speaker 1: back and evaluate my own life and think, am I
Speaker 1: doing that. I love to hear other people's specific examples.
Speaker 1: Nothing else has been more effective for me in helping
Speaker 1: myself get out of the ways I tend to just
Speaker 1: get stuck in my thinking.
Speaker 3: So let's move on to highly sensitive people. I touched
Speaker 3: it very briefly, and the reason I want to move
Speaker 3: on to it is because I have heard from lots
Speaker 3: of listeners about you know, they'd like to hear more
Speaker 3: about this topic. So now I've got somebody who's written
Speaker 3: about the topic, it would be negligent of me not
Speaker 3: to take advantage of it. So tell me about highly
Speaker 3: sensitive people? What does that mean?
Speaker 1: Sure, well, people often hear that and think, oh, it
Speaker 1: means you're emotional, or it means you're touchy, or it
Speaker 1: means you're sensitive.
Speaker 4: But it doesn't.
Speaker 1: It refers to your nervous system, and basically it's running
Speaker 1: at a little bit higher frequency than that of the
Speaker 1: general population. Fifteen to twenty percent of people are highly sensitive.
Speaker 1: That is true across species. You could have a highly
Speaker 1: sensitive labrador or guinea pig.
Speaker 4: That is a thing. And what's funny is that.
Speaker 3: It's a title of mind really novel. Really the highly
Speaker 3: Sensitive Guinea Pig.
Speaker 4: I'd buy that.
Speaker 1: So this is a framework developed by Elaine Aaron and
Speaker 1: I love her books, especially The Highly Sensitive Person. And
Speaker 1: if you are a highly sensitive type, I might start
Speaker 1: actually with the Highly Sensitive Child instead because you will
Speaker 1: read your own story there as well as a child
Speaker 1: and teen. If you're highly sensitive as an adult, you
Speaker 1: were highly sensitive as a kid too. And the Highly
Speaker 1: Sensitive Person has some information about like sexual abuse and
Speaker 1: how that may affect highly sensitive people that may be
Speaker 1: very difficult for highly sensitive people to read. So to
Speaker 1: you know, thirty second book Plug. But the funny thing
Speaker 1: is that this is not actually a personality framework in
Speaker 1: the traditional sense, but I included it in the book
Speaker 1: because it has impacted me in so many other people
Speaker 1: and opened my eyes in similar ways. It gives me
Speaker 1: that lens through which to understand myself and the way
Speaker 1: I approach the world and the way I interact with
Speaker 1: the people around me.
Speaker 4: So I included it here.
Speaker 3: To what extent are there variations in being highly sensitive?
Speaker 3: Can you be highly sensitive in a particular sense, but
Speaker 3: the other senses don't really trigger you in the same way?
Speaker 3: What accounts for some variation in that? Because some of
Speaker 3: the stuff I look at and I go, that is
Speaker 3: absolutely me, and then others of it, I go, well,
Speaker 3: I don't think that's really you know, And looking at
Speaker 3: other people I know, you know, I look and I go,
Speaker 3: I can see a couple instances of what seems to
Speaker 3: be very high sensitivity, and yet everything else I see
Speaker 3: looks more or less like you know less. So some
Speaker 3: kind of curious, what's the level of variation look like
Speaker 3: in that? Do they know?
Speaker 4: It's pretty high?
Speaker 1: So highly sensitive people are more sensitive to stimuli than
Speaker 1: that of the general population. While there are common themes
Speaker 1: like the different stimuli can be diverse, like noise and
Speaker 1: sound are common triggers, but clutter can also be which
Speaker 1: surprises a lot of people at first. But if you
Speaker 1: think of a kitchen counter with no white space, it's
Speaker 1: that lack of white space that is just causing a
Speaker 1: mental overload. And the highly sensitive people. A classic highly
Speaker 1: sensitive trigger for children is like sock seams or the
Speaker 1: tags and shirts. I wish when I was a kid
Speaker 1: that they had those amazing tag free shirts that they
Speaker 1: have now that my kids have. People can be overwhelming
Speaker 1: to highly sensitive people because people are very stimulating. Big
Speaker 1: feelings can be very stimulating to highly sensitive people. So
Speaker 1: can emotional stimuli or like action movies or NPR. So
Speaker 1: if you see yourself as the type of person who
Speaker 1: wants to go curl up in a ball in the
Speaker 1: corner and suck your thumb after watching network news, you
Speaker 1: might be a highly sensitive person.
Speaker 3: It's definitely a useful concept, and I recognize, like I said,
Speaker 3: big parts of it in myself. We'll put in the
Speaker 3: show notes links to you, obviously your website book, and
Speaker 3: we'll also put a link into the highly Sensitive online test.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, and Elaine Aaron has that great self assessment.
Speaker 1: And the thing about high sensitivity that sets it apart
Speaker 1: from a lot of other personality frameworks is that most
Speaker 1: people don't feel ambiguous about this. They'll read the checklist
Speaker 1: and go like, huh, I didn't know some people were
Speaker 1: like that, or that's not me, but that's my brother,
Speaker 1: or they'll go like, oh, is that weird because that's me.
Speaker 1: I thought everybody was like this, Yes, this is me.
Speaker 1: I get it now.
Speaker 3: Excellent. So I want to throw in a couple other
Speaker 3: things here that I just picked out from the book.
Speaker 3: And one is I love to bring in ideas that
Speaker 3: have long resonated with me, that show up in a
Speaker 3: book that I have an opportunity then to talk about.
Speaker 3: And one that I love. I think I first discovered
Speaker 3: it in Stephen Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People,
Speaker 3: which I still claim is a masterpiece. It sounds like
Speaker 3: you learned it from a couple's group at church. But
Speaker 3: the idea of the emotional bank account, can you talk
Speaker 3: to us about what that means? And this also plays
Speaker 3: into more than just the emotional bank account. It ties
Speaker 3: into being highly sensitive, or the concept does in some ways.
Speaker 1: Sure, So we all have things that drain us of energy,
Speaker 1: and we all have things that fill us with energy.
Speaker 1: This is often talked about in the context of introversion
Speaker 1: and extraversion, with introverts recharge their mental and physical batteries
Speaker 1: by having quiet time alone, and for extroverts it's the opposite. Well,
Speaker 1: the same can really be true about our relationships with
Speaker 1: other people. So the people we love the most, who
Speaker 1: we live with, who we see the most, are the
Speaker 1: ones that will probably bring us the most joy but
Speaker 1: also disappoint us the most. And we know that as humans.
Speaker 1: But problems arise when we don't have a healthy balance
Speaker 1: in the positive. So when I think about the emotional
Speaker 1: bank account, emotional gas tank, what we're thinking about is
Speaker 1: properly balancing or you know, as much as possible, you
Speaker 1: want to be in the black and not in the red.
Speaker 1: You want to have a lot more deposits into that
Speaker 1: good feelings bank than you do withdrawals because we're all
Speaker 1: going to make hopefully we're all going to make deposits
Speaker 1: and our loved ones accounts, or our coworkers or bosses
Speaker 1: or you know, neighbors. But because we're people, we will
Speaker 1: make withdrawals. We'll do things that hurt them, will disappoint them,
Speaker 1: will be deliberately cruel or just casually forgetful, and ways
Speaker 1: that hurt their feelings and make them feel bad. But
Speaker 1: if we don't keep that balance in the positive or
Speaker 1: that fuel tank towards the upper end of the gage,
Speaker 1: we are going to be in trouble.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I love that idea because it takes into account
Speaker 3: the fact that, like you said, inevitably we are going
Speaker 3: to do something that disappoints the people we love, but
Speaker 3: that we also hopefully are doing lots of things that
Speaker 3: are positive. And so every time we do something kind
Speaker 3: and we can debate what other people think is kind
Speaker 3: the five love languages you talk about in the book,
Speaker 3: and I think that's a useful framework. We don't have
Speaker 3: time to go into it here, but the long and
Speaker 3: short of is time we do something positive for the
Speaker 3: other person. We're putting money into that bank account, you know,
Speaker 3: whether it's keeping a promise or doing something extra nice,
Speaker 3: or saying nice things or whatever they are. You know,
Speaker 3: there's that bank account. The balance builds up, and then
Speaker 3: you know, when inevitably we do something wrong, you pull
Speaker 3: out of that. But as long as to your point,
Speaker 3: there's enough in there, the relationship works. So I think,
Speaker 3: for whatever reason, that struck me as such a useful
Speaker 3: concept because it's another way to get away from what
Speaker 3: I think be Deevil's a lot of us, which is
Speaker 3: sort of very black and white or very extreme, thinking
Speaker 3: that anything we do wrong is a catastrophe. You know,
Speaker 3: that we have to be perfect all the time. I
Speaker 3: like the model because it sort of shows that, like,
Speaker 3: it's not what you do exactly in one moment, although
Speaker 3: that matters, but it's what you do consistently over a
Speaker 3: period of time. And by doing things consistently positive over
Speaker 3: a period of time, you get a positive result, even
Speaker 3: if there's some negatives mixed in there. And I think
Speaker 3: it's a useful perspective of exercise in that way. And
Speaker 3: then it also makes me think. You quoted John Gottman
Speaker 3: in the book Who's you know, a marriage family therapist counselor,
Speaker 3: but he has something that I think is really interesting.
Speaker 3: He says that you know, you need about five positive
Speaker 3: things for every one negative remark that you make to
Speaker 3: sort of balance it out. You know, to have a
Speaker 3: good relationship, you sort of need like five positive experiences
Speaker 3: for each one negative because negatives are, you know, so powerful,
Speaker 3: and we can talk about the negativity bias and all that.
Speaker 3: I think that's a really interesting concept. I can think
Speaker 3: of times where I've been in relationships where that ratio
Speaker 3: is completely flipped and it is just awful. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's just miserable. You know, it's five negative things for
Speaker 3: every positive thing. I just have found that concept to
Speaker 3: be useful when I'm dealing with people. I found it
Speaker 3: very useful as my son was growing up, because you know,
Speaker 3: I'm trying to do really good things and all that,
Speaker 3: and there become a time where I'm like, it happened
Speaker 3: very rarely, but like, I'm going to miss this event
Speaker 3: of his and I try to never miss any of them,
Speaker 3: and blah blah blah, but I'm going to miss this.
Speaker 3: And I could look at that in a context of
Speaker 3: overall actions and go, you know what, Okay, I'm in
Speaker 3: balance here. I'm in the positive here with him because
Speaker 3: of all these other things. So this one thing isn't
Speaker 3: isn't this catastrophic thing. It's just I think it's a
Speaker 3: way to sort of help us think about how we
Speaker 3: interact with people, and also to put our interactions with
Speaker 3: people into a broader context.
Speaker 1: Yes, and I love how viewing your relationships in this
Speaker 1: way can positively change the stories you tell yourself. So
Speaker 1: instead of saying, oh, I'm as terrible father because I
Speaker 1: wasn't at my kid's game, you can think, look how
Speaker 1: many deposits I've made in his account? This is a
Speaker 1: withdrawal and that's fine because I'm the kind of person
Speaker 1: who continually makes deposits. And it also you talked about
Speaker 1: how sometimes you need to act your way into it.
Speaker 1: This is something you can do without getting obsessed about.
Speaker 1: Am I the kind of person who will never disappoint
Speaker 1: my loved ones? You don't have to go into that story.
Speaker 1: You can be the kind of person who chooses to
Speaker 1: for ways to make deposits into their accounts. So it
Speaker 1: breaks into tiny pieces. It's very actionable, and it turned
Speaker 1: you into the kind of person who accomplishes that big
Speaker 1: scary thing that you might not claim right off the
Speaker 1: bat because it feels a little too audacious. I would
Speaker 1: never becomes Oh, I do this every day, step by step.
Speaker 3: I agree, and that makes me think of you know,
Speaker 3: we've talked about people and changing behavior and all that,
Speaker 3: and that's one of the things I work with people
Speaker 3: that I'm doing coaching with is that I say, you know,
Speaker 3: our goal is to get to whatever the thing is
Speaker 3: you want to change, Like, if we can be upwards
Speaker 3: of ninety percent consistently, you've won, Like so let's just
Speaker 3: say it's I want to have an exercise or a
Speaker 3: meditation habit. If you are doing it ninety percent of
Speaker 3: the time, you want to do it. But you do
Speaker 3: that one month, three months, six months, three years, and
Speaker 3: you do that, that's a huge victory. But even within that,
Speaker 3: you'll notice that ninety percent leaves you with you know,
Speaker 3: roughly say, thirty six days a year that you will
Speaker 3: screw up.
Speaker 1: And I find that just knowing that if you screw
Speaker 1: up thirty six days a year you can still be
Speaker 1: winning is such.
Speaker 4: I mean, it sounds so stupid.
Speaker 1: Like of course, we wouldn't think if it was our
Speaker 1: friend doing it that achieving ninety percent of the time
Speaker 1: was bad. We would think that was amazing. But we
Speaker 1: can be so hard on ourselves because we just don't
Speaker 1: have the tools to picture it in a way that
Speaker 1: really helps us exactly.
Speaker 3: We can make one of those screw ups into a catastrophe.
Speaker 3: And that's a way I see a lot of people,
Speaker 3: myself included, to get off track. We're doing well and
Speaker 3: then life intervenes and we suddenly don't do very well
Speaker 3: for a day or a couple of days, and then
Speaker 3: the old back to the fix versus growth mindset, the
Speaker 3: old story starts up here, I go again. I'm the
Speaker 3: kind of person that can't do it. See I knew
Speaker 3: I wouldn't be able to do it. I can't stick
Speaker 3: with anything, And before you know it, we're off track
Speaker 3: again in a permanent way, versus going, oh, that was
Speaker 3: just a temporary blip on a much bigger picture. And
Speaker 3: so tying this back to the emotional bank account, it's
Speaker 3: a way of broadening perspective to realize that. I think,
Speaker 3: Gretchen Ruben, who you quote in your books, as you know,
Speaker 3: it's not what we do once that matters. It's what
Speaker 3: we do every day or consistently. And again, not that
Speaker 3: once of certain things isn't bad, but it's a perspective.
Speaker 1: Yes, And I think what the human brain needs on
Speaker 1: any Tuesday afternoon when we're faced with an emotional crisis
Speaker 1: or even a small decision, is we don't know how
Speaker 1: to approach that issue, We don't know what matrix to
Speaker 1: plot it upon, we don't know how to think about it.
Speaker 1: And what I love about the emotional bank account, or
Speaker 1: like any of the frameworks in the personality books, they
Speaker 1: give us simple tools for like, oh, this is going on.
Speaker 1: This is how to think about it in a way
Speaker 1: that will help you and not send you into a
Speaker 1: downward destructive spiral.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we're near the end of our time. And
Speaker 3: the last thing I'm going to say is that the
Speaker 3: one chapter of your book I didn't read because I
Speaker 3: was a little bit time limited was the one on
Speaker 3: the enneagram. It's so fun, and the enniagram happens to
Speaker 3: be the personality test that I most get value out
Speaker 3: of and the reason I get value out of it,
Speaker 3: and maybe it's built into some of the other ones
Speaker 3: and I just haven't gone deep enough. I love of
Speaker 3: what the aneagram does. And this goes back to your like,
Speaker 3: if you want to type yourself, well, see where you
Speaker 3: screw up. I love that the aneagram shows like, okay,
Speaker 3: so like I'm a nine, I think, but I'm very
Speaker 3: close to a three and a seven, but I'm a nine.
Speaker 3: And it says, you know, a nine who's functioning well
Speaker 3: will look like this, and I go, yeah, that's me
Speaker 3: sometimes most of the time, hopefully. And then a nine
Speaker 3: who's not doing well will look like this, and I go, oh, yeah,
Speaker 3: those two people look completely opposite in the way they're behaving.
Speaker 3: In the way they're manifesting. So if you just looked
Speaker 3: at the outward behavioral symptom, you'd go those people are very,
Speaker 3: very different, you know. But if you look at it
Speaker 3: from that perspective of there's this underlying sort of personality
Speaker 3: traits and that depending on whether that person is thriving
Speaker 3: or not thriving, those things are going to go different directions.
Speaker 3: I've just found that to make that framework particularly useful
Speaker 3: for me.
Speaker 1: Yes, I resonate with you there, maybe especially because I
Speaker 1: am a nine and I said that enneagram was fun,
Speaker 1: and I think it is, but it is also brutal
Speaker 1: because it's true that Enneagram, more than any other personality framework,
Speaker 1: your type is confirmed for most people by hearing a
Speaker 1: story of how that type is likely to self destruct.
Speaker 1: So if you can look at how you tend to
Speaker 1: sabotage yourself and what things tend to send you crying
Speaker 1: to the corner, you can get your type right. And
Speaker 1: you know that's not fun to go through, but like
Speaker 1: having those insights about yourself is amazing.
Speaker 3: I agree. I have found that to be a particularly
Speaker 3: useful framework. Well, and thank you so much. This has
Speaker 3: been a fun conversation. I'm sure, we could do it
Speaker 3: for a lot longer, but like I said in the
Speaker 3: show notes, we will have links to your site, your podcast,
Speaker 3: and a couple of the books and resources we talked
Speaker 3: about in the interview.
Speaker 5: So thank you so much, thank you for having me
Speaker 5: all right bye.
Speaker 2: If what you just heard was helpful to you, please
Speaker 2: consider making a donation to the One You Feed podcast.
Speaker 2: Head over to oneufeed dot net slash support. The One
Speaker 2: You Feed Podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors
Speaker 2: for supporting the show.