WEBVTT - Designing Digital Spaces That Bring Us Together Is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:24.236 Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. I do think 0:00:24.236 --> 0:00:26.596 we'll look back in ten years or twenty years at 0:00:26.596 --> 0:00:29.276 this era of the Internet and be like, it's so 0:00:29.356 --> 0:00:32.596 crazy and kind of cute that we thought that you 0:00:32.596 --> 0:00:36.796 could connect all of human society through one hundred and 0:00:36.796 --> 0:00:40.156 eighty or two hundred and thirty character snippets of text. 0:00:40.756 --> 0:00:43.796 In the early two thousands, Eli Pariser was running move 0:00:43.836 --> 0:00:46.556 on dot org and thinking about how to reach people 0:00:46.636 --> 0:00:49.716 through the Internet. It was during that time that Pariser 0:00:49.756 --> 0:00:54.116 realized something important. The algorithms being used by companies like 0:00:54.196 --> 0:00:57.716 Facebook were standing between his work and the wider audience 0:00:57.756 --> 0:01:01.036 he was trying to reach. Pariser introduced the world to 0:01:01.076 --> 0:01:04.196 the idea of filter bubbles and warned that they could 0:01:04.196 --> 0:01:07.756 be isolating us from ideas and perspectives we might not 0:01:07.876 --> 0:01:10.756 already agree with. It. Now seems that many of the 0:01:10.796 --> 0:01:14.876 algorithms used by social media companies, not just Facebook, have 0:01:15.036 --> 0:01:19.876 contributed to the political polarization we're experiencing today. We saw 0:01:19.876 --> 0:01:25.076 a kind of worst imaginable case scenario on January six. Yeah, 0:01:25.356 --> 0:01:27.676 how much of the blame for that do you think 0:01:28.196 --> 0:01:32.716 goes to the social platforms? The social part of It 0:01:33.596 --> 0:01:37.276 allowed people both to coordinate and find each other and 0:01:37.316 --> 0:01:41.516 then to create this kind of shared reality. People showed 0:01:41.596 --> 0:01:46.036 up not totally knowing if they were playing a role 0:01:46.196 --> 0:01:49.636 and they were coast playing or if they were actually 0:01:49.676 --> 0:01:54.516 ready for battle, and that's a very volatile situation these days. 0:01:54.716 --> 0:01:58.516 Pariser was working with Professor Talius Stroud from the University 0:01:58.516 --> 0:02:02.676 of Texas on a project called Civic Signals. They're looking 0:02:02.676 --> 0:02:05.916 at the social cues that are rewarded are punished across 0:02:05.996 --> 0:02:10.916 social media and how online platforms might elevate different signals 0:02:11.156 --> 0:02:15.036 to design healthier digital spaces for all of us. When 0:02:15.036 --> 0:02:17.756 you think about all of the civic spaces in a community, 0:02:18.436 --> 0:02:21.036 there are very few that are like, here's the place 0:02:21.036 --> 0:02:22.836 where you go when you want to walk up to 0:02:22.916 --> 0:02:25.796 strangers and tell them what you really think about the 0:02:25.836 --> 0:02:29.236 most intense political beliefs that you have. Instead, we've got 0:02:29.276 --> 0:02:32.556 basketball courts and tennis courts, which are really about like 0:02:33.436 --> 0:02:37.956 coexisting across lines of difference. Paris Are believes that social 0:02:37.996 --> 0:02:42.636 media can be redesigned to support social cohesion. My solvable 0:02:42.836 --> 0:02:46.276 is creating digital spaces that we have a stronger social 0:02:46.316 --> 0:02:49.436 fabric that help us come together as a community. As 0:02:49.436 --> 0:02:56.756 a society. ELI, this interview is going to begin, unusually 0:02:56.916 --> 0:02:59.676 with an apology from me to you. I don't know 0:02:59.956 --> 0:03:03.036 how well you even remember this, but about a decade ago, 0:03:03.076 --> 0:03:05.636 when your book The Filter Bubble came out, we did 0:03:06.436 --> 0:03:10.956 public debate, one of those stage debates, and you argued 0:03:10.956 --> 0:03:12.676 that you were right, and I argued that you were 0:03:12.716 --> 0:03:17.956 wrong about filter bubbles. And I realized some years ago 0:03:18.076 --> 0:03:20.836 that in fact, you were completely right and I was 0:03:20.876 --> 0:03:24.436 completely wrong. I appreciate that I stopped clocks and all 0:03:24.476 --> 0:03:26.196 of that. It's nice to be right once in a while. 0:03:26.996 --> 0:03:31.356 We saw a kind of worst imaginable case scenario on 0:03:31.436 --> 0:03:36.916 January six, yeah, with an insert violent insurrection at the Capitol. 0:03:37.636 --> 0:03:39.956 How much of the blame for that do you think 0:03:40.476 --> 0:03:43.596 goes to the social platforms? I mean, it's it's only 0:03:43.636 --> 0:03:45.756 been a short time, But what have we learned about 0:03:45.796 --> 0:03:49.316 that event in relation to the kind of social media 0:03:49.516 --> 0:03:53.156 polarization that you've been focused on. I'm not a person 0:03:53.196 --> 0:03:56.796 who would say one hundred percent. There are other forces 0:03:57.596 --> 0:04:02.076 at work that are driving the kind of autocratic moment 0:04:02.276 --> 0:04:05.516 that we were up against, and that are driving violent 0:04:05.636 --> 0:04:08.956 extremism in the United States. But I think the social 0:04:09.196 --> 0:04:12.916 part of it allowed people both to coordinate and find 0:04:12.956 --> 0:04:16.756 each other and then to create this kind of shared 0:04:16.796 --> 0:04:22.636 reality which was one part fantasy and one part real, right, 0:04:22.676 --> 0:04:25.796 Like people showed up not totally knowing if they were 0:04:26.956 --> 0:04:31.276 playing a role and they were coast playing right, or 0:04:31.316 --> 0:04:34.836 if they were actually ready for battle. Yeah, I mean, 0:04:34.916 --> 0:04:36.636 let's dig into that a little bit, because they're you know, 0:04:36.636 --> 0:04:39.996 they're a bunch of things that are interesting and super 0:04:40.076 --> 0:04:43.236 alarming about them. I mean, one of them is this, 0:04:43.476 --> 0:04:46.676 you know, this point you make about extremists having a 0:04:46.716 --> 0:04:49.036 way to get together. But the other aspect of it 0:04:49.236 --> 0:04:51.876 you were kind of i think alluding to qan On 0:04:52.116 --> 0:04:53.956 and the you know, in the nature of it, it's 0:04:53.996 --> 0:04:57.756 not a classic conspiracy theory that comes out of politics. 0:04:57.756 --> 0:05:00.236 It is more like, you know, some kind of you know, 0:05:00.316 --> 0:05:05.716 science fiction narrative that has elements of fantasy and game right, 0:05:05.756 --> 0:05:08.036 And part of the fun of it is that you 0:05:08.076 --> 0:05:10.796 get to co create that reality. Right. It's it's not 0:05:10.876 --> 0:05:13.956 just that you're being handed this narrative. Is that you 0:05:13.996 --> 0:05:16.236 get to find the clues and you get to piece 0:05:16.276 --> 0:05:19.716 together the pieces along with a lot of other people. 0:05:20.276 --> 0:05:22.956 You know, It's like if you've ever watched a film 0:05:22.956 --> 0:05:26.796 where a bunch of investigative journalists like discover the big 0:05:26.996 --> 0:05:29.956 dark secret at the center of a country or whatever. 0:05:30.276 --> 0:05:35.276 It's actually that same feeling that these conspiracy theories drawn, 0:05:35.476 --> 0:05:38.236 which is like we're a team together, you know, kind 0:05:38.236 --> 0:05:41.596 of pulling the curtain back and showing the world what's happening. Yeah, 0:05:42.196 --> 0:05:46.356 thinking about how to reform social media, which is something 0:05:46.356 --> 0:05:49.476 you've been thinking about a long time. One of the 0:05:49.956 --> 0:05:52.956 key problems is how you prevent that. I mean, we'll 0:05:52.956 --> 0:05:54.756 get into in a minute. You know, some of your 0:05:54.796 --> 0:05:59.156 ideas about fostering you know, more positive democratic ideas, small 0:05:59.236 --> 0:06:02.396 d democratic ideas in a minute, But at the very least, 0:06:02.476 --> 0:06:07.116 you want to stop violent extremists from organizing activity. How 0:06:07.116 --> 0:06:11.516 do you do that? It's starts with what drives people 0:06:11.556 --> 0:06:15.916 toward violent extremism, right. A lot of that is a 0:06:16.036 --> 0:06:21.236 sense of purposelessness and powerlessness and a lack of other 0:06:21.556 --> 0:06:25.356 forums in which to feel like you have some agency, 0:06:25.756 --> 0:06:28.556 and so you have to address things on that level. 0:06:28.956 --> 0:06:31.956 But I also think, yeah, the platforms that we have 0:06:32.156 --> 0:06:37.156 are so ill equipped still to really address these problems. 0:06:37.196 --> 0:06:41.716 And I think there's a reason that empires historically have 0:06:41.716 --> 0:06:46.956 have fallen, and that you know, well, which is that 0:06:48.436 --> 0:06:53.276 having a huge human system of civilization dependent on the 0:06:53.316 --> 0:06:58.556 decisions of one individual is an inherently fragile way to 0:06:59.076 --> 0:07:03.556 organize social functions. And that's essentially what we have in 0:07:03.676 --> 0:07:07.116 Facebook and Twitter both. Yeah, Well, the the algorithm problem 0:07:07.236 --> 0:07:12.436 that they are trying to maximize for amount of use, 0:07:12.556 --> 0:07:16.116 length of use, depth of use. But the other thing 0:07:16.196 --> 0:07:20.556 I keep harping on is their seeming inability for them 0:07:20.596 --> 0:07:25.236 to have real standards and hold to them. In the end, 0:07:25.436 --> 0:07:28.436 these companies respond to public pressure and when the public 0:07:28.476 --> 0:07:31.956 pressure is great enough, they eventually do something about it. 0:07:31.996 --> 0:07:33.956 And you know, with the banning of Donald Trump, you 0:07:33.956 --> 0:07:37.236 could argue that he violated their standards, but realistically, if 0:07:37.236 --> 0:07:41.356 he violated their standards in January, he violated them, you know, 0:07:41.396 --> 0:07:44.836 since he's been on the platform. Similarly, there are other cases, 0:07:44.996 --> 0:07:47.516 you know, other dictators around the world who are you know, 0:07:47.556 --> 0:07:50.636 who make more extreme and violence threats to Donald Trump 0:07:50.796 --> 0:07:53.116 and aren't going to be kicked off anytime soon because 0:07:53.236 --> 0:07:57.036 Facebook isn't being pressured about it. Now, Facebook does seem 0:07:57.076 --> 0:07:59.556 to be taking some steps in the directions of standards. 0:07:59.596 --> 0:08:03.716 It's set up this Supreme Court an idea I think 0:08:03.756 --> 0:08:07.556 that my colleague Noah Feldman originally originated and they're they're 0:08:07.556 --> 0:08:11.716 not ruling on this whether Donald Trump stays permanently banned, 0:08:12.036 --> 0:08:15.756 But what do you think about the capacity of social 0:08:15.796 --> 0:08:18.396 media platforms to do the right thing? I mean, are 0:08:18.436 --> 0:08:22.516 they capable of it? To me? You know, all of 0:08:22.556 --> 0:08:26.916 that points toward just the fragility of this model. It's 0:08:26.916 --> 0:08:28.916 a bad way to organize things. Now. It's a bad 0:08:28.916 --> 0:08:31.916 way even if you give him, even if he's a 0:08:32.036 --> 0:08:34.756 very wise person, and it's especially you know, it gets 0:08:34.796 --> 0:08:39.236 almost comically problematic when you imagine, you know, God forbid, 0:08:40.036 --> 0:08:42.676 you know, he gets fit hit by a bus and 0:08:42.716 --> 0:08:45.116 you have all of a sudden, the estate of Mark 0:08:45.196 --> 0:08:48.516 Zuckerberg making these decisions. Nothing against Priscilla Champ, but like 0:08:49.156 --> 0:08:52.356 you get into this very weird world of you know, 0:08:52.396 --> 0:08:55.876 some of the most important decisions about speech, about how 0:08:55.876 --> 0:08:58.636 we are related are in this the hands of this 0:08:58.796 --> 0:09:00.556 you know, very small group of people who may not 0:09:00.676 --> 0:09:03.916 have any direct expert chise. And even with a Supreme court, 0:09:04.476 --> 0:09:06.036 you know, what does it totally mean to have a 0:09:06.076 --> 0:09:09.436 supreme court but not a legislature or an to an 0:09:09.436 --> 0:09:15.196 executive you know, those things generally go together. For a reason. Well, 0:09:15.236 --> 0:09:17.196 I mean, I guess you could argue the analogy that 0:09:17.276 --> 0:09:20.476 the Mark Zuckerberg is the executive and the Supreme Court 0:09:20.516 --> 0:09:25.476 is deciding whether his decisions are compatible with the Constitution, 0:09:25.516 --> 0:09:27.236 I eat the rules that are set in place, and 0:09:27.276 --> 0:09:30.756 they do have, it seems, the ability to overrule him. 0:09:30.756 --> 0:09:34.756 So if they decide that Trump wasn't fairly banned, they 0:09:34.796 --> 0:09:36.996 can unban him. And Mark Suckerberg is said he'll be 0:09:36.996 --> 0:09:40.276 bound by that. He's said that, but he isn't. Actually, 0:09:40.596 --> 0:09:45.476 they're not able to enforce that over if he said no, 0:09:46.156 --> 0:09:50.036 there's no recourse. There's no like sergeant at arms of 0:09:50.116 --> 0:09:52.676 Facebook who's going to come and push the button to 0:09:53.356 --> 0:09:56.636 put Trump back on. So what else would work or 0:09:56.676 --> 0:09:59.436 what would work better in terms of governance for these 0:09:59.476 --> 0:10:02.356 social media companies. I mean, if they have a Supreme Court, 0:10:02.356 --> 0:10:04.316 as you say, do they need did they need other 0:10:04.356 --> 0:10:06.876 branches of a government? How should they be structured to 0:10:06.916 --> 0:10:11.196 be more accountable? That question? And if governance is really important, 0:10:11.316 --> 0:10:16.956 And I'm not suggesting that every company, every platform needs 0:10:16.996 --> 0:10:21.556 to have a kind of democratically elected board, but I 0:10:21.596 --> 0:10:25.796 do think in the long run, these kinds of spaces 0:10:25.836 --> 0:10:28.556 work best when they are accountable to the communities that 0:10:28.596 --> 0:10:32.676 they serve, and part of what is missing right now 0:10:32.876 --> 0:10:36.836 is any kind of feedback loop that requires them to 0:10:36.996 --> 0:10:39.436 do that. In some ways, we in the United States 0:10:39.436 --> 0:10:41.836 have it the best because at least a lot of 0:10:41.836 --> 0:10:45.036 the folks who work at these companies live here. But 0:10:45.116 --> 0:10:47.876 if you talk to folks in other parts of the world, yeah, 0:10:47.876 --> 0:10:51.396 there's just very little resources or interest in figuring out 0:10:51.676 --> 0:10:55.876 how do we make a platform like that serve folks 0:10:55.916 --> 0:11:01.556 in South America or in Malaysia, And so really thinking 0:11:01.596 --> 0:11:06.196 about models where there is some sense of collective ownership 0:11:06.236 --> 0:11:09.796 collective governance is a piece of the p And one 0:11:09.836 --> 0:11:13.556 of the things that my partner in this effort, Talia Strout, 0:11:13.596 --> 0:11:16.396 and I have been thinking about is what lessons we 0:11:16.436 --> 0:11:20.236 can take from physical public spaces that might inform digital ones. 0:11:20.716 --> 0:11:24.476 So talk to me about some of the public infrastructure 0:11:25.316 --> 0:11:30.836 things that could create a positive impact, positive influence here. Sure, yeah, So, 0:11:31.516 --> 0:11:34.196 I mean I think it's useful again to start with, well, 0:11:34.196 --> 0:11:38.716 what works in physical space and why. And I've been 0:11:38.796 --> 0:11:42.996 very captivated by work that Eric Kleinenberg and other sociologists 0:11:43.036 --> 0:11:45.916 have done showing, you know, for example, the value of 0:11:45.996 --> 0:11:49.236 having parks in a neighborhood. It's not just about health 0:11:49.356 --> 0:11:52.116 or about having a nice place to go with some 0:11:52.476 --> 0:11:56.956 green trees. It's about those are the places where people 0:11:57.036 --> 0:12:01.196 form a sense of familiarity with each other, where they 0:12:01.316 --> 0:12:03.796 encounter other people in the community who they otherwise might 0:12:03.836 --> 0:12:06.716 not seek out and are like it's okay, I can 0:12:07.156 --> 0:12:11.356 I can deal. And ultimately where they form a sense 0:12:11.396 --> 0:12:14.356 of collective identity where you know, they have this shared 0:12:15.036 --> 0:12:17.436 reference point. You know, if you were to operate a 0:12:17.476 --> 0:12:21.196 park like a business, some of those functions would fall away. 0:12:21.676 --> 0:12:24.116 And so to me, you know, part of this is 0:12:24.116 --> 0:12:28.836 about how do we build institutions that serve those functions 0:12:28.916 --> 0:12:31.476 in digital life that are not going to be met 0:12:31.556 --> 0:12:36.676 by you know, companies looking to maximize their their profits. Yeah, 0:12:36.716 --> 0:12:39.636 but even with parks, it's a it's a really good example. 0:12:40.396 --> 0:12:42.836 There are parks that really work from the point of 0:12:42.916 --> 0:12:44.796 view of creating that kind of set and ones that 0:12:44.876 --> 0:12:47.236 really don't. You know, the ones that don't or you know, 0:12:47.236 --> 0:12:50.516 if people feel they're dangerous or they're dirty, or they're 0:12:50.716 --> 0:12:54.396 you know, their crime taking place. And the ones that do, 0:12:54.556 --> 0:12:56.876 I mean, they're even you know, people who study this 0:12:56.956 --> 0:13:00.236 kind of thing point all sorts of really subtle design decisions. 0:13:00.236 --> 0:13:02.836 I remember when they were opening Brian Park in New York, 0:13:03.036 --> 0:13:05.956 they made a big thing out of the chairs not 0:13:06.076 --> 0:13:08.756 being anchored down, and so people show up in the 0:13:08.796 --> 0:13:11.116 park and they can adjust the chair, and someone would 0:13:11.276 --> 0:13:13.436 before sitting in the chair adjusted, you know, even like 0:13:13.916 --> 0:13:16.476 you know, a few inches. But somehow that you know, 0:13:16.516 --> 0:13:19.996 gives them a sense of kind of ownership of the space. Yeah, 0:13:20.196 --> 0:13:22.276 you know, never would have occurred to me. But what 0:13:22.396 --> 0:13:25.836 are the social media equivalents of those that kind of 0:13:25.876 --> 0:13:30.236 thinking about about public spaces. Well, so you're referring, I think, Tom, 0:13:30.636 --> 0:13:32.556 there's a wonderful book that I've spent a lot of 0:13:32.556 --> 0:13:35.116 time kind of thinking about the public life of small 0:13:35.196 --> 0:13:38.236 urban spaces, which was written by William White in the seventies. 0:13:38.876 --> 0:13:41.156 And he actually, you know, here's this great character who 0:13:41.156 --> 0:13:44.796 like ran around New York with a video camera or 0:13:44.836 --> 0:13:48.956 a film film camera, filming you know, Bryant Park for like, 0:13:49.236 --> 0:13:51.276 you know, a day and trying to figure out like 0:13:51.756 --> 0:13:53.876 when are people here, why are they here, what are 0:13:53.876 --> 0:13:56.556 they doing? And he noticed this thing about the chairs 0:13:56.596 --> 0:13:59.716 and the and how it offered people this sense of 0:13:59.756 --> 0:14:03.356 dignity that they could like establish their relationship to each other. 0:14:03.676 --> 0:14:05.916 Thank you, by the way, excellent giving me that the 0:14:05.996 --> 0:14:08.796 real reference of what I was passing on. Well, it's 0:14:08.836 --> 0:14:14.836 funny because I've I've used that example literally because it 0:14:14.956 --> 0:14:19.076 is this small design decision that has these big consequences. 0:14:19.556 --> 0:14:22.316 One of the things that White and Jane Jacobs and 0:14:22.396 --> 0:14:24.076 a bunch of the other folks who have really thought 0:14:24.116 --> 0:14:27.276 about public space note is so part of it is 0:14:27.356 --> 0:14:29.796 about the design, and I think there are ways to 0:14:29.836 --> 0:14:34.836 think about how you offer people that sense of dignity 0:14:34.916 --> 0:14:37.276 and that sense of Another thing that he writes about 0:14:37.676 --> 0:14:41.556 Bryant Park that Brian Park has varying degrees of publicness. 0:14:42.116 --> 0:14:44.196 So this will mean more to people who have spent 0:14:44.236 --> 0:14:47.156 a lot of time in New York. But there's areas 0:14:47.196 --> 0:14:50.356 where you're in public, but you're really pretty private. You're 0:14:50.356 --> 0:14:53.516 sitting at a chess table, you're not kind of making 0:14:53.556 --> 0:14:55.516 a big scene of yourself, and then if you walk 0:14:55.556 --> 0:14:58.516 out into the middle of the field, everyone can see 0:14:58.556 --> 0:15:01.436 you and you can do your big spectacular thing. And 0:15:01.516 --> 0:15:04.876 so it offers people this way to vary intuitively modulate, 0:15:05.236 --> 0:15:07.116 like how much do I want to be seen? How 0:15:07.196 --> 0:15:10.196 much do I want to be watching others and social media. 0:15:10.396 --> 0:15:13.636 You know, it's very unintuitive and it's sort of a binary, right, 0:15:13.676 --> 0:15:17.036 Like I can be seen potentially by everyone on the 0:15:17.036 --> 0:15:20.236 Internet or no one. But having that sense of kind 0:15:20.236 --> 0:15:23.756 of intuitive modulation isn't isn't part of the picture. The 0:15:23.876 --> 0:15:26.796 other thing that folks like White and Jane Jacobs have 0:15:27.676 --> 0:15:30.916 pointed to is like, part of this is about design, 0:15:30.956 --> 0:15:34.236 and part of it's about people and programming. When you 0:15:34.276 --> 0:15:36.996 look at spaces that are flourishing, there are a bunch 0:15:36.996 --> 0:15:39.076 of people who kind of take some ownership or some 0:15:39.116 --> 0:15:43.276 stewardship of those spaces, their activities that happen there that 0:15:43.396 --> 0:15:46.156 draw people in. It's not just like a blank canvas. 0:15:46.396 --> 0:15:48.316 And this for me was one of the big kind 0:15:48.316 --> 0:15:51.036 of aha moments in this work that I've been doing 0:15:51.116 --> 0:15:54.676 right now, because it's such a contrast to the kind 0:15:54.716 --> 0:15:58.716 of Twitter notion of like let's build the minimal communications 0:15:58.796 --> 0:16:02.636 platform and see you know what emerges from that. This 0:16:02.676 --> 0:16:05.236 is really saying like, no, you've got to be really conscientious, 0:16:05.356 --> 0:16:07.996 and this is what people observe about parts that are 0:16:08.036 --> 0:16:10.236 really working, and especially that are working to be kind 0:16:10.236 --> 0:16:14.236 of inclusive and equitable. You're thinking very actively about like 0:16:14.516 --> 0:16:17.236 what's going to get which communities out and how do 0:16:17.276 --> 0:16:21.036 we build the right kinds of activities and spaces that 0:16:21.156 --> 0:16:24.396 are going to serve those communities. And ultimately a lot 0:16:24.436 --> 0:16:26.876 of the time it comes down to co design. So 0:16:27.036 --> 0:16:29.676 how are we actually working with the people in this 0:16:29.716 --> 0:16:32.836 community together to come up with what we want this 0:16:32.956 --> 0:16:37.716 space to be? You know, that to me is pretty 0:16:37.756 --> 0:16:41.396 far from what it feels like to be on Facebook 0:16:41.476 --> 0:16:45.436 or start a Facebook group. Yeah. When I think about 0:16:45.516 --> 0:16:50.596 pro social behavior on digital media, the thing that springs 0:16:50.596 --> 0:16:54.156 first to mind is Wikipedia, which is a company that's 0:16:54.276 --> 0:16:56.916 it's a not for profit. It has a very large 0:16:56.956 --> 0:17:00.796 number of very dedicated volunteers. You know, I'm sure there 0:17:00.836 --> 0:17:04.476 are all sorts of this, all sorts of partisanship and stuff, 0:17:04.476 --> 0:17:06.196 but there are also people who are very committed to 0:17:06.196 --> 0:17:09.756 weeding it out. And often when you go to Wikipedia, 0:17:09.796 --> 0:17:13.476 you find exactly what you're looking for, gives you the references, 0:17:13.516 --> 0:17:16.476 and sometimes you find things that are like incredibly good. 0:17:16.756 --> 0:17:20.276 And you know, volunteers have done this out of a 0:17:20.396 --> 0:17:22.596 sense of you know, they enjoy doing it, but it's 0:17:22.636 --> 0:17:25.796 it's for public good. How do you cultivate that? Well, 0:17:25.876 --> 0:17:28.236 if you agree with me about Wikipedia, yeah, are there 0:17:28.276 --> 0:17:32.276 other examples and how do we spread that ethic. I 0:17:32.356 --> 0:17:36.716 totally agree about the promise of Wikipedia, and I think 0:17:36.756 --> 0:17:40.596 it's also worth really noting again that you know, Wikipedia 0:17:41.316 --> 0:17:43.876 is so amazing in so many ways, but even now 0:17:44.436 --> 0:17:48.036 the ratio of male to female editors is like two 0:17:48.076 --> 0:17:50.396 to one, and that's after a lot of hard work 0:17:50.476 --> 0:17:53.676 by the Alcohen CEO Katherine Maher to like pull in 0:17:53.796 --> 0:17:57.036 more female editors. And it had real consequences in terms 0:17:57.076 --> 0:18:01.516 of what stories, you know, what articles got put on Wikipedia, 0:18:01.916 --> 0:18:04.196 because you would have these kind of like, you know, 0:18:05.236 --> 0:18:08.716 ninety page treatises on some Maga character that was a 0:18:08.796 --> 0:18:12.476 venture us to like dudes who are nerds, and you know, 0:18:12.556 --> 0:18:15.476 not the most basic information about Mary Cury or whoever. 0:18:15.796 --> 0:18:19.716 So the point there is, I think the fallacy was 0:18:20.516 --> 0:18:23.236 we'll just let everyone, anyone edit without a whole lot 0:18:23.236 --> 0:18:26.476 of structure, and we'll find our community. And that kind 0:18:26.476 --> 0:18:28.596 of worked, but it kind of didn't. And so I 0:18:28.636 --> 0:18:31.876 guess the point is until they really started thinking seriously 0:18:31.916 --> 0:18:34.436 about how do we get women editors, how do we 0:18:34.476 --> 0:18:37.436 get editors from the global South, there were these big 0:18:37.476 --> 0:18:40.396 gaps in what that product was. And so to me, 0:18:40.476 --> 0:18:43.436 it's sort of just saying social problems are a bigger 0:18:43.476 --> 0:18:46.436 part of the challenge than the technology problems. Where do 0:18:46.476 --> 0:18:49.116 you see social media working? I mean, what are the 0:18:49.156 --> 0:18:52.756 positive examples to build on in your mind? What's interesting 0:18:52.796 --> 0:18:56.396 is when you get away from the need to show 0:18:56.596 --> 0:18:59.876 a kind of like exponential up into the right growth curve, 0:19:00.276 --> 0:19:03.676 there are lots of wonderful examples of communities that are 0:19:03.676 --> 0:19:06.916 really functioning. One that I like to think about is 0:19:07.636 --> 0:19:12.956 a platform in Vermont Front Porch Forum, which is it's 0:19:12.996 --> 0:19:19.276 basically like a heavily moderated daily newsletter for your geographic area, 0:19:19.356 --> 0:19:22.196 and anyone can post. You have to prove that you 0:19:22.236 --> 0:19:26.396 live there. But if you write a nasty note or whatever, 0:19:26.836 --> 0:19:29.716 it's sent back to you with a nice little like, hey, Eli, 0:19:29.796 --> 0:19:32.636 it sounds like you're having a moment. Can you rewrite this? 0:19:33.276 --> 0:19:36.596 And because you can only post once a day, like, 0:19:36.636 --> 0:19:40.196 it's really hard to maintain a flame war for like 0:19:40.516 --> 0:19:43.436 seventeen days running. It's possible, but you really got to 0:19:43.476 --> 0:19:45.916 be into it, you know. I think that's a really 0:19:45.956 --> 0:19:50.436 interesting example of like if you increase moderation and you 0:19:51.076 --> 0:19:55.396 don't focus on engagement over you know, minutes and seconds, 0:19:55.436 --> 0:19:58.276 but you're thinking about long term you can actually create 0:19:58.316 --> 0:20:02.356 these really different kinds of conversations. And in Vermont, even 0:20:02.396 --> 0:20:04.996 as Facebook use has gone up, two thirds of a 0:20:05.076 --> 0:20:08.956 Vermont households are on front porch forum. So again it's 0:20:08.956 --> 0:20:13.156 like if you were just trying to maximize engagement, it 0:20:13.196 --> 0:20:16.116 wouldn't be the most effective way. Like flame wars are 0:20:16.156 --> 0:20:18.716 great for engagement, but they're not actually very good for 0:20:18.996 --> 0:20:23.396 substantive community conversation. I mean two thirds of households. That 0:20:23.436 --> 0:20:27.436 sounds incredible, you know, is that just because things are 0:20:27.516 --> 0:20:30.316 like that in Vermont and they're very specific minded and 0:20:30.516 --> 0:20:32.436 people get along with each other. I mean, if you 0:20:32.476 --> 0:20:35.676 try to do that in Florida, Arizona, you know, do 0:20:35.676 --> 0:20:37.836 you think the same thing can work? Yeah, I mean 0:20:37.876 --> 0:20:40.796 I think both. I really feel like it wouldn't be 0:20:40.876 --> 0:20:42.836 the exact same thing. And I think this is one 0:20:42.836 --> 0:20:45.316 of the challenges that we have with our tech environment 0:20:45.396 --> 0:20:49.276 right now. It's just I really think there is no 0:20:49.316 --> 0:20:52.836 one algorithm that is going to work for three billion humans. 0:20:53.356 --> 0:20:56.956 It seems like that's just a very hard task from 0:20:57.356 --> 0:21:00.556 the start. So figuring out how you build some of 0:21:00.636 --> 0:21:04.276 the local character and local community into the spaces that 0:21:04.316 --> 0:21:08.396 we're all relating in actually seems really important. But that said, 0:21:08.436 --> 0:21:13.636 I think, you know, making healthy, flourishing communities is both 0:21:13.836 --> 0:21:17.756 really difficult and not that difficult. And the part that 0:21:18.556 --> 0:21:20.916 is not that difficult is you just need people who 0:21:20.956 --> 0:21:24.156 are willing to spend a lot of effort making it 0:21:24.196 --> 0:21:28.276 good and doing the hard work of like setting up 0:21:28.276 --> 0:21:32.236 the events, managing different groups of people that may be 0:21:32.276 --> 0:21:37.276 antagonistic to each other, building a sense of community identity. 0:21:37.756 --> 0:21:39.836 And I feel like in the physical world there are 0:21:39.876 --> 0:21:43.396 people who have those jobs. They're like the park you know, 0:21:43.516 --> 0:21:48.396 activities coordinator, or the librarian or the social worker. They 0:21:48.516 --> 0:21:52.756 like do those functions. We rely on, you know, kind 0:21:52.756 --> 0:21:56.596 of volunteer moderators who have other jobs to do that 0:21:56.676 --> 0:21:59.396 in digital life, and so I think that's the part 0:21:59.436 --> 0:22:01.476 that's like, it's not that hard. It's just a lot 0:22:01.516 --> 0:22:04.036 of work and it's expensive, and if you're trying to 0:22:04.036 --> 0:22:06.556 create something that has a great growth curve, it's the 0:22:06.596 --> 0:22:08.636 first thing that you take out of the balance sheet. 0:22:09.196 --> 0:22:12.836 But there's a gap between people's express preferences and they're 0:22:12.836 --> 0:22:16.276 revealed preferences. When you ask people, they often say they 0:22:16.276 --> 0:22:18.596 want to hear a big range of viewpoints. They want 0:22:18.636 --> 0:22:21.956 to be informed citizens, They want to participate in a civil, 0:22:22.556 --> 0:22:25.116 constructive dialogue, and yeah, they'd like to be on a 0:22:25.156 --> 0:22:28.636 social media platform that does that. But in fact, when 0:22:29.236 --> 0:22:33.116 I mean from on Front Porch, sounds like it's an exception, 0:22:33.876 --> 0:22:36.156 but a lot of the attempts I've seen to try 0:22:36.156 --> 0:22:42.676 to create those more socially constructive forums flounder because people 0:22:42.756 --> 0:22:45.516 don't find them as enjoyable. You know, when it comes 0:22:45.516 --> 0:22:48.756 down to it, that's that's spinach, and there's there's candy 0:22:48.836 --> 0:22:52.516 over a Twitter, right, and and you know, I'm not 0:22:52.676 --> 0:22:56.116 someone who who wants to take candy away from anyone, 0:22:56.236 --> 0:23:00.076 But I really think it's about actually increasing the diversity 0:23:00.116 --> 0:23:02.876 of the options that we have for different ways of 0:23:02.916 --> 0:23:06.596 relating to each other. Those two pieces can coexist, just 0:23:06.716 --> 0:23:09.316 like you know, you have parks and then you have 0:23:09.356 --> 0:23:13.276 amusement parks or whatever. Do you see positive things happening 0:23:13.476 --> 0:23:17.316 anywhere in commercial social media either? I mean, these platforms 0:23:17.316 --> 0:23:19.956 all have a different personality, and some of them at 0:23:19.996 --> 0:23:23.316 least seem much less virulent. But you know, the kind 0:23:23.356 --> 0:23:26.956 of thing you admire on Vermont Front Porch. Yeah, do 0:23:26.956 --> 0:23:30.116 you see like the indications of that breaking out any 0:23:30.116 --> 0:23:32.556 work in the commercial world. Yeah, I mean, I think 0:23:32.556 --> 0:23:36.796 there are pieces all over the place. Talian I did 0:23:36.796 --> 0:23:39.916 some so basically part of our work was trying to 0:23:40.076 --> 0:23:46.476 identify the fourteen kind of qualities of healthy digital public spaces, 0:23:46.836 --> 0:23:49.396 what we're calling kind of the signals, and we did 0:23:49.396 --> 0:23:52.996