1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:24,236 Speaker 1: Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. I do think 2 00:00:24,236 --> 00:00:26,596 Speaker 1: we'll look back in ten years or twenty years at 3 00:00:26,596 --> 00:00:29,276 Speaker 1: this era of the Internet and be like, it's so 4 00:00:29,356 --> 00:00:32,596 Speaker 1: crazy and kind of cute that we thought that you 5 00:00:32,596 --> 00:00:36,796 Speaker 1: could connect all of human society through one hundred and 6 00:00:36,796 --> 00:00:40,156 Speaker 1: eighty or two hundred and thirty character snippets of text. 7 00:00:40,756 --> 00:00:43,796 Speaker 1: In the early two thousands, Eli Pariser was running move 8 00:00:43,836 --> 00:00:46,556 Speaker 1: on dot org and thinking about how to reach people 9 00:00:46,636 --> 00:00:49,716 Speaker 1: through the Internet. It was during that time that Pariser 10 00:00:49,756 --> 00:00:54,116 Speaker 1: realized something important. The algorithms being used by companies like 11 00:00:54,196 --> 00:00:57,716 Speaker 1: Facebook were standing between his work and the wider audience 12 00:00:57,756 --> 00:01:01,036 Speaker 1: he was trying to reach. Pariser introduced the world to 13 00:01:01,076 --> 00:01:04,196 Speaker 1: the idea of filter bubbles and warned that they could 14 00:01:04,196 --> 00:01:07,756 Speaker 1: be isolating us from ideas and perspectives we might not 15 00:01:07,876 --> 00:01:10,756 Speaker 1: already agree with. It. Now seems that many of the 16 00:01:10,796 --> 00:01:14,876 Speaker 1: algorithms used by social media companies, not just Facebook, have 17 00:01:15,036 --> 00:01:19,876 Speaker 1: contributed to the political polarization we're experiencing today. We saw 18 00:01:19,876 --> 00:01:25,076 Speaker 1: a kind of worst imaginable case scenario on January six. Yeah, 19 00:01:25,356 --> 00:01:27,676 Speaker 1: how much of the blame for that do you think 20 00:01:28,196 --> 00:01:32,716 Speaker 1: goes to the social platforms? The social part of It 21 00:01:33,596 --> 00:01:37,276 Speaker 1: allowed people both to coordinate and find each other and 22 00:01:37,316 --> 00:01:41,516 Speaker 1: then to create this kind of shared reality. People showed 23 00:01:41,596 --> 00:01:46,036 Speaker 1: up not totally knowing if they were playing a role 24 00:01:46,196 --> 00:01:49,636 Speaker 1: and they were coast playing or if they were actually 25 00:01:49,676 --> 00:01:54,516 Speaker 1: ready for battle, and that's a very volatile situation these days. 26 00:01:54,716 --> 00:01:58,516 Speaker 1: Pariser was working with Professor Talius Stroud from the University 27 00:01:58,516 --> 00:02:02,676 Speaker 1: of Texas on a project called Civic Signals. They're looking 28 00:02:02,676 --> 00:02:05,916 Speaker 1: at the social cues that are rewarded are punished across 29 00:02:05,996 --> 00:02:10,916 Speaker 1: social media and how online platforms might elevate different signals 30 00:02:11,156 --> 00:02:15,036 Speaker 1: to design healthier digital spaces for all of us. When 31 00:02:15,036 --> 00:02:17,756 Speaker 1: you think about all of the civic spaces in a community, 32 00:02:18,436 --> 00:02:21,036 Speaker 1: there are very few that are like, here's the place 33 00:02:21,036 --> 00:02:22,836 Speaker 1: where you go when you want to walk up to 34 00:02:22,916 --> 00:02:25,796 Speaker 1: strangers and tell them what you really think about the 35 00:02:25,836 --> 00:02:29,236 Speaker 1: most intense political beliefs that you have. Instead, we've got 36 00:02:29,276 --> 00:02:32,556 Speaker 1: basketball courts and tennis courts, which are really about like 37 00:02:33,436 --> 00:02:37,956 Speaker 1: coexisting across lines of difference. Paris Are believes that social 38 00:02:37,996 --> 00:02:42,636 Speaker 1: media can be redesigned to support social cohesion. My solvable 39 00:02:42,836 --> 00:02:46,276 Speaker 1: is creating digital spaces that we have a stronger social 40 00:02:46,316 --> 00:02:49,436 Speaker 1: fabric that help us come together as a community. As 41 00:02:49,436 --> 00:02:56,756 Speaker 1: a society. ELI, this interview is going to begin, unusually 42 00:02:56,916 --> 00:02:59,676 Speaker 1: with an apology from me to you. I don't know 43 00:02:59,956 --> 00:03:03,036 Speaker 1: how well you even remember this, but about a decade ago, 44 00:03:03,076 --> 00:03:05,636 Speaker 1: when your book The Filter Bubble came out, we did 45 00:03:06,436 --> 00:03:10,956 Speaker 1: public debate, one of those stage debates, and you argued 46 00:03:10,956 --> 00:03:12,676 Speaker 1: that you were right, and I argued that you were 47 00:03:12,716 --> 00:03:17,956 Speaker 1: wrong about filter bubbles. And I realized some years ago 48 00:03:18,076 --> 00:03:20,836 Speaker 1: that in fact, you were completely right and I was 49 00:03:20,876 --> 00:03:24,436 Speaker 1: completely wrong. I appreciate that I stopped clocks and all 50 00:03:24,476 --> 00:03:26,196 Speaker 1: of that. It's nice to be right once in a while. 51 00:03:26,996 --> 00:03:31,356 Speaker 1: We saw a kind of worst imaginable case scenario on 52 00:03:31,436 --> 00:03:36,916 Speaker 1: January six, yeah, with an insert violent insurrection at the Capitol. 53 00:03:37,636 --> 00:03:39,956 Speaker 1: How much of the blame for that do you think 54 00:03:40,476 --> 00:03:43,596 Speaker 1: goes to the social platforms? I mean, it's it's only 55 00:03:43,636 --> 00:03:45,756 Speaker 1: been a short time, But what have we learned about 56 00:03:45,796 --> 00:03:49,316 Speaker 1: that event in relation to the kind of social media 57 00:03:49,516 --> 00:03:53,156 Speaker 1: polarization that you've been focused on. I'm not a person 58 00:03:53,196 --> 00:03:56,796 Speaker 1: who would say one hundred percent. There are other forces 59 00:03:57,596 --> 00:04:02,076 Speaker 1: at work that are driving the kind of autocratic moment 60 00:04:02,276 --> 00:04:05,516 Speaker 1: that we were up against, and that are driving violent 61 00:04:05,636 --> 00:04:08,956 Speaker 1: extremism in the United States. But I think the social 62 00:04:09,196 --> 00:04:12,916 Speaker 1: part of it allowed people both to coordinate and find 63 00:04:12,956 --> 00:04:16,756 Speaker 1: each other and then to create this kind of shared 64 00:04:16,796 --> 00:04:22,636 Speaker 1: reality which was one part fantasy and one part real, right, 65 00:04:22,676 --> 00:04:25,796 Speaker 1: Like people showed up not totally knowing if they were 66 00:04:26,956 --> 00:04:31,276 Speaker 1: playing a role and they were coast playing right, or 67 00:04:31,316 --> 00:04:34,836 Speaker 1: if they were actually ready for battle. Yeah, I mean, 68 00:04:34,916 --> 00:04:36,636 Speaker 1: let's dig into that a little bit, because they're you know, 69 00:04:36,636 --> 00:04:39,996 Speaker 1: they're a bunch of things that are interesting and super 70 00:04:40,076 --> 00:04:43,236 Speaker 1: alarming about them. I mean, one of them is this, 71 00:04:43,476 --> 00:04:46,676 Speaker 1: you know, this point you make about extremists having a 72 00:04:46,716 --> 00:04:49,036 Speaker 1: way to get together. But the other aspect of it 73 00:04:49,236 --> 00:04:51,876 Speaker 1: you were kind of i think alluding to qan On 74 00:04:52,116 --> 00:04:53,956 Speaker 1: and the you know, in the nature of it, it's 75 00:04:53,996 --> 00:04:57,756 Speaker 1: not a classic conspiracy theory that comes out of politics. 76 00:04:57,756 --> 00:05:00,236 Speaker 1: It is more like, you know, some kind of you know, 77 00:05:00,316 --> 00:05:05,716 Speaker 1: science fiction narrative that has elements of fantasy and game right, 78 00:05:05,756 --> 00:05:08,036 Speaker 1: And part of the fun of it is that you 79 00:05:08,076 --> 00:05:10,796 Speaker 1: get to co create that reality. Right. It's it's not 80 00:05:10,876 --> 00:05:13,956 Speaker 1: just that you're being handed this narrative. Is that you 81 00:05:13,996 --> 00:05:16,236 Speaker 1: get to find the clues and you get to piece 82 00:05:16,276 --> 00:05:19,716 Speaker 1: together the pieces along with a lot of other people. 83 00:05:20,276 --> 00:05:22,956 Speaker 1: You know, It's like if you've ever watched a film 84 00:05:22,956 --> 00:05:26,796 Speaker 1: where a bunch of investigative journalists like discover the big 85 00:05:26,996 --> 00:05:29,956 Speaker 1: dark secret at the center of a country or whatever. 86 00:05:30,276 --> 00:05:35,276 Speaker 1: It's actually that same feeling that these conspiracy theories drawn, 87 00:05:35,476 --> 00:05:38,236 Speaker 1: which is like we're a team together, you know, kind 88 00:05:38,236 --> 00:05:41,596 Speaker 1: of pulling the curtain back and showing the world what's happening. Yeah, 89 00:05:42,196 --> 00:05:46,356 Speaker 1: thinking about how to reform social media, which is something 90 00:05:46,356 --> 00:05:49,476 Speaker 1: you've been thinking about a long time. One of the 91 00:05:49,956 --> 00:05:52,956 Speaker 1: key problems is how you prevent that. I mean, we'll 92 00:05:52,956 --> 00:05:54,756 Speaker 1: get into in a minute. You know, some of your 93 00:05:54,796 --> 00:05:59,156 Speaker 1: ideas about fostering you know, more positive democratic ideas, small 94 00:05:59,236 --> 00:06:02,396 Speaker 1: d democratic ideas in a minute, But at the very least, 95 00:06:02,476 --> 00:06:07,116 Speaker 1: you want to stop violent extremists from organizing activity. How 96 00:06:07,116 --> 00:06:11,516 Speaker 1: do you do that? It's starts with what drives people 97 00:06:11,556 --> 00:06:15,916 Speaker 1: toward violent extremism, right. A lot of that is a 98 00:06:16,036 --> 00:06:21,236 Speaker 1: sense of purposelessness and powerlessness and a lack of other 99 00:06:21,556 --> 00:06:25,356 Speaker 1: forums in which to feel like you have some agency, 100 00:06:25,756 --> 00:06:28,556 Speaker 1: and so you have to address things on that level. 101 00:06:28,956 --> 00:06:31,956 Speaker 1: But I also think, yeah, the platforms that we have 102 00:06:32,156 --> 00:06:37,156 Speaker 1: are so ill equipped still to really address these problems. 103 00:06:37,196 --> 00:06:41,716 Speaker 1: And I think there's a reason that empires historically have 104 00:06:41,716 --> 00:06:46,956 Speaker 1: have fallen, and that you know, well, which is that 105 00:06:48,436 --> 00:06:53,276 Speaker 1: having a huge human system of civilization dependent on the 106 00:06:53,316 --> 00:06:58,556 Speaker 1: decisions of one individual is an inherently fragile way to 107 00:06:59,076 --> 00:07:03,556 Speaker 1: organize social functions. And that's essentially what we have in 108 00:07:03,676 --> 00:07:07,116 Speaker 1: Facebook and Twitter both. Yeah, Well, the the algorithm problem 109 00:07:07,236 --> 00:07:12,436 Speaker 1: that they are trying to maximize for amount of use, 110 00:07:12,556 --> 00:07:16,116 Speaker 1: length of use, depth of use. But the other thing 111 00:07:16,196 --> 00:07:20,556 Speaker 1: I keep harping on is their seeming inability for them 112 00:07:20,596 --> 00:07:25,236 Speaker 1: to have real standards and hold to them. In the end, 113 00:07:25,436 --> 00:07:28,436 Speaker 1: these companies respond to public pressure and when the public 114 00:07:28,476 --> 00:07:31,956 Speaker 1: pressure is great enough, they eventually do something about it. 115 00:07:31,996 --> 00:07:33,956 Speaker 1: And you know, with the banning of Donald Trump, you 116 00:07:33,956 --> 00:07:37,236 Speaker 1: could argue that he violated their standards, but realistically, if 117 00:07:37,236 --> 00:07:41,356 Speaker 1: he violated their standards in January, he violated them, you know, 118 00:07:41,396 --> 00:07:44,836 Speaker 1: since he's been on the platform. Similarly, there are other cases, 119 00:07:44,996 --> 00:07:47,516 Speaker 1: you know, other dictators around the world who are you know, 120 00:07:47,556 --> 00:07:50,636 Speaker 1: who make more extreme and violence threats to Donald Trump 121 00:07:50,796 --> 00:07:53,116 Speaker 1: and aren't going to be kicked off anytime soon because 122 00:07:53,236 --> 00:07:57,036 Speaker 1: Facebook isn't being pressured about it. Now, Facebook does seem 123 00:07:57,076 --> 00:07:59,556 Speaker 1: to be taking some steps in the directions of standards. 124 00:07:59,596 --> 00:08:03,716 Speaker 1: It's set up this Supreme Court an idea I think 125 00:08:03,756 --> 00:08:07,556 Speaker 1: that my colleague Noah Feldman originally originated and they're they're 126 00:08:07,556 --> 00:08:11,716 Speaker 1: not ruling on this whether Donald Trump stays permanently banned, 127 00:08:12,036 --> 00:08:15,756 Speaker 1: But what do you think about the capacity of social 128 00:08:15,796 --> 00:08:18,396 Speaker 1: media platforms to do the right thing? I mean, are 129 00:08:18,436 --> 00:08:22,516 Speaker 1: they capable of it? To me? You know, all of 130 00:08:22,556 --> 00:08:26,916 Speaker 1: that points toward just the fragility of this model. It's 131 00:08:26,916 --> 00:08:28,916 Speaker 1: a bad way to organize things. Now. It's a bad 132 00:08:28,916 --> 00:08:31,916 Speaker 1: way even if you give him, even if he's a 133 00:08:32,036 --> 00:08:34,756 Speaker 1: very wise person, and it's especially you know, it gets 134 00:08:34,796 --> 00:08:39,236 Speaker 1: almost comically problematic when you imagine, you know, God forbid, 135 00:08:40,036 --> 00:08:42,676 Speaker 1: you know, he gets fit hit by a bus and 136 00:08:42,716 --> 00:08:45,116 Speaker 1: you have all of a sudden, the estate of Mark 137 00:08:45,196 --> 00:08:48,516 Speaker 1: Zuckerberg making these decisions. Nothing against Priscilla Champ, but like 138 00:08:49,156 --> 00:08:52,356 Speaker 1: you get into this very weird world of you know, 139 00:08:52,396 --> 00:08:55,876 Speaker 1: some of the most important decisions about speech, about how 140 00:08:55,876 --> 00:08:58,636 Speaker 1: we are related are in this the hands of this 141 00:08:58,796 --> 00:09:00,556 Speaker 1: you know, very small group of people who may not 142 00:09:00,676 --> 00:09:03,916 Speaker 1: have any direct expert chise. And even with a Supreme court, 143 00:09:04,476 --> 00:09:06,036 Speaker 1: you know, what does it totally mean to have a 144 00:09:06,076 --> 00:09:09,436 Speaker 1: supreme court but not a legislature or an to an 145 00:09:09,436 --> 00:09:15,196 Speaker 1: executive you know, those things generally go together. For a reason. Well, 146 00:09:15,236 --> 00:09:17,196 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess you could argue the analogy that 147 00:09:17,276 --> 00:09:20,476 Speaker 1: the Mark Zuckerberg is the executive and the Supreme Court 148 00:09:20,516 --> 00:09:25,476 Speaker 1: is deciding whether his decisions are compatible with the Constitution, 149 00:09:25,516 --> 00:09:27,236 Speaker 1: I eat the rules that are set in place, and 150 00:09:27,276 --> 00:09:30,756 Speaker 1: they do have, it seems, the ability to overrule him. 151 00:09:30,756 --> 00:09:34,756 Speaker 1: So if they decide that Trump wasn't fairly banned, they 152 00:09:34,796 --> 00:09:36,996 Speaker 1: can unban him. And Mark Suckerberg is said he'll be 153 00:09:36,996 --> 00:09:40,276 Speaker 1: bound by that. He's said that, but he isn't. Actually, 154 00:09:40,596 --> 00:09:45,476 Speaker 1: they're not able to enforce that over if he said no, 155 00:09:46,156 --> 00:09:50,036 Speaker 1: there's no recourse. There's no like sergeant at arms of 156 00:09:50,116 --> 00:09:52,676 Speaker 1: Facebook who's going to come and push the button to 157 00:09:53,356 --> 00:09:56,636 Speaker 1: put Trump back on. So what else would work or 158 00:09:56,676 --> 00:09:59,436 Speaker 1: what would work better in terms of governance for these 159 00:09:59,476 --> 00:10:02,356 Speaker 1: social media companies. I mean, if they have a Supreme Court, 160 00:10:02,356 --> 00:10:04,316 Speaker 1: as you say, do they need did they need other 161 00:10:04,356 --> 00:10:06,876 Speaker 1: branches of a government? How should they be structured to 162 00:10:06,916 --> 00:10:11,196 Speaker 1: be more accountable? That question? And if governance is really important, 163 00:10:11,316 --> 00:10:16,956 Speaker 1: And I'm not suggesting that every company, every platform needs 164 00:10:16,996 --> 00:10:21,556 Speaker 1: to have a kind of democratically elected board, but I 165 00:10:21,596 --> 00:10:25,796 Speaker 1: do think in the long run, these kinds of spaces 166 00:10:25,836 --> 00:10:28,556 Speaker 1: work best when they are accountable to the communities that 167 00:10:28,596 --> 00:10:32,676 Speaker 1: they serve, and part of what is missing right now 168 00:10:32,876 --> 00:10:36,836 Speaker 1: is any kind of feedback loop that requires them to 169 00:10:36,996 --> 00:10:39,436 Speaker 1: do that. In some ways, we in the United States 170 00:10:39,436 --> 00:10:41,836 Speaker 1: have it the best because at least a lot of 171 00:10:41,836 --> 00:10:45,036 Speaker 1: the folks who work at these companies live here. But 172 00:10:45,116 --> 00:10:47,876 Speaker 1: if you talk to folks in other parts of the world, yeah, 173 00:10:47,876 --> 00:10:51,396 Speaker 1: there's just very little resources or interest in figuring out 174 00:10:51,676 --> 00:10:55,876 Speaker 1: how do we make a platform like that serve folks 175 00:10:55,916 --> 00:11:01,556 Speaker 1: in South America or in Malaysia, And so really thinking 176 00:11:01,596 --> 00:11:06,196 Speaker 1: about models where there is some sense of collective ownership 177 00:11:06,236 --> 00:11:09,796 Speaker 1: collective governance is a piece of the p And one 178 00:11:09,836 --> 00:11:13,556 Speaker 1: of the things that my partner in this effort, Talia Strout, 179 00:11:13,596 --> 00:11:16,396 Speaker 1: and I have been thinking about is what lessons we 180 00:11:16,436 --> 00:11:20,236 Speaker 1: can take from physical public spaces that might inform digital ones. 181 00:11:20,716 --> 00:11:24,476 Speaker 1: So talk to me about some of the public infrastructure 182 00:11:25,316 --> 00:11:30,836 Speaker 1: things that could create a positive impact, positive influence here. Sure, yeah, So, 183 00:11:31,516 --> 00:11:34,196 Speaker 1: I mean I think it's useful again to start with, well, 184 00:11:34,196 --> 00:11:38,716 Speaker 1: what works in physical space and why. And I've been 185 00:11:38,796 --> 00:11:42,996 Speaker 1: very captivated by work that Eric Kleinenberg and other sociologists 186 00:11:43,036 --> 00:11:45,916 Speaker 1: have done showing, you know, for example, the value of 187 00:11:45,996 --> 00:11:49,236 Speaker 1: having parks in a neighborhood. It's not just about health 188 00:11:49,356 --> 00:11:52,116 Speaker 1: or about having a nice place to go with some 189 00:11:52,476 --> 00:11:56,956 Speaker 1: green trees. It's about those are the places where people 190 00:11:57,036 --> 00:12:01,196 Speaker 1: form a sense of familiarity with each other, where they 191 00:12:01,316 --> 00:12:03,796 Speaker 1: encounter other people in the community who they otherwise might 192 00:12:03,836 --> 00:12:06,716 Speaker 1: not seek out and are like it's okay, I can 193 00:12:07,156 --> 00:12:11,356 Speaker 1: I can deal. And ultimately where they form a sense 194 00:12:11,396 --> 00:12:14,356 Speaker 1: of collective identity where you know, they have this shared 195 00:12:15,036 --> 00:12:17,436 Speaker 1: reference point. You know, if you were to operate a 196 00:12:17,476 --> 00:12:21,196 Speaker 1: park like a business, some of those functions would fall away. 197 00:12:21,676 --> 00:12:24,116 Speaker 1: And so to me, you know, part of this is 198 00:12:24,116 --> 00:12:28,836 Speaker 1: about how do we build institutions that serve those functions 199 00:12:28,916 --> 00:12:31,476 Speaker 1: in digital life that are not going to be met 200 00:12:31,556 --> 00:12:36,676 Speaker 1: by you know, companies looking to maximize their their profits. Yeah, 201 00:12:36,716 --> 00:12:39,636 Speaker 1: but even with parks, it's a it's a really good example. 202 00:12:40,396 --> 00:12:42,836 Speaker 1: There are parks that really work from the point of 203 00:12:42,916 --> 00:12:44,796 Speaker 1: view of creating that kind of set and ones that 204 00:12:44,876 --> 00:12:47,236 Speaker 1: really don't. You know, the ones that don't or you know, 205 00:12:47,236 --> 00:12:50,516 Speaker 1: if people feel they're dangerous or they're dirty, or they're 206 00:12:50,716 --> 00:12:54,396 Speaker 1: you know, their crime taking place. And the ones that do, 207 00:12:54,556 --> 00:12:56,876 Speaker 1: I mean, they're even you know, people who study this 208 00:12:56,956 --> 00:13:00,236 Speaker 1: kind of thing point all sorts of really subtle design decisions. 209 00:13:00,236 --> 00:13:02,836 Speaker 1: I remember when they were opening Brian Park in New York, 210 00:13:03,036 --> 00:13:05,956 Speaker 1: they made a big thing out of the chairs not 211 00:13:06,076 --> 00:13:08,756 Speaker 1: being anchored down, and so people show up in the 212 00:13:08,796 --> 00:13:11,116 Speaker 1: park and they can adjust the chair, and someone would 213 00:13:11,276 --> 00:13:13,436 Speaker 1: before sitting in the chair adjusted, you know, even like 214 00:13:13,916 --> 00:13:16,476 Speaker 1: you know, a few inches. But somehow that you know, 215 00:13:16,516 --> 00:13:19,996 Speaker 1: gives them a sense of kind of ownership of the space. Yeah, 216 00:13:20,196 --> 00:13:22,276 Speaker 1: you know, never would have occurred to me. But what 217 00:13:22,396 --> 00:13:25,836 Speaker 1: are the social media equivalents of those that kind of 218 00:13:25,876 --> 00:13:30,236 Speaker 1: thinking about about public spaces. Well, so you're referring, I think, Tom, 219 00:13:30,636 --> 00:13:32,556 Speaker 1: there's a wonderful book that I've spent a lot of 220 00:13:32,556 --> 00:13:35,116 Speaker 1: time kind of thinking about the public life of small 221 00:13:35,196 --> 00:13:38,236 Speaker 1: urban spaces, which was written by William White in the seventies. 222 00:13:38,876 --> 00:13:41,156 Speaker 1: And he actually, you know, here's this great character who 223 00:13:41,156 --> 00:13:44,796 Speaker 1: like ran around New York with a video camera or 224 00:13:44,836 --> 00:13:48,956 Speaker 1: a film film camera, filming you know, Bryant Park for like, 225 00:13:49,236 --> 00:13:51,276 Speaker 1: you know, a day and trying to figure out like 226 00:13:51,756 --> 00:13:53,876 Speaker 1: when are people here, why are they here, what are 227 00:13:53,876 --> 00:13:56,556 Speaker 1: they doing? And he noticed this thing about the chairs 228 00:13:56,596 --> 00:13:59,716 Speaker 1: and the and how it offered people this sense of 229 00:13:59,756 --> 00:14:03,356 Speaker 1: dignity that they could like establish their relationship to each other. 230 00:14:03,676 --> 00:14:05,916 Speaker 1: Thank you, by the way, excellent giving me that the 231 00:14:05,996 --> 00:14:08,796 Speaker 1: real reference of what I was passing on. Well, it's 232 00:14:08,836 --> 00:14:14,836 Speaker 1: funny because I've I've used that example literally because it 233 00:14:14,956 --> 00:14:19,076 Speaker 1: is this small design decision that has these big consequences. 234 00:14:19,556 --> 00:14:22,316 Speaker 1: One of the things that White and Jane Jacobs and 235 00:14:22,396 --> 00:14:24,076 Speaker 1: a bunch of the other folks who have really thought 236 00:14:24,116 --> 00:14:27,276 Speaker 1: about public space note is so part of it is 237 00:14:27,356 --> 00:14:29,796 Speaker 1: about the design, and I think there are ways to 238 00:14:29,836 --> 00:14:34,836 Speaker 1: think about how you offer people that sense of dignity 239 00:14:34,916 --> 00:14:37,276 Speaker 1: and that sense of Another thing that he writes about 240 00:14:37,676 --> 00:14:41,556 Speaker 1: Bryant Park that Brian Park has varying degrees of publicness. 241 00:14:42,116 --> 00:14:44,196 Speaker 1: So this will mean more to people who have spent 242 00:14:44,236 --> 00:14:47,156 Speaker 1: a lot of time in New York. But there's areas 243 00:14:47,196 --> 00:14:50,356 Speaker 1: where you're in public, but you're really pretty private. You're 244 00:14:50,356 --> 00:14:53,516 Speaker 1: sitting at a chess table, you're not kind of making 245 00:14:53,556 --> 00:14:55,516 Speaker 1: a big scene of yourself, and then if you walk 246 00:14:55,556 --> 00:14:58,516 Speaker 1: out into the middle of the field, everyone can see 247 00:14:58,556 --> 00:15:01,436 Speaker 1: you and you can do your big spectacular thing. And 248 00:15:01,516 --> 00:15:04,876 Speaker 1: so it offers people this way to vary intuitively modulate, 249 00:15:05,236 --> 00:15:07,116 Speaker 1: like how much do I want to be seen? How 250 00:15:07,196 --> 00:15:10,196 Speaker 1: much do I want to be watching others and social media. 251 00:15:10,396 --> 00:15:13,636 Speaker 1: You know, it's very unintuitive and it's sort of a binary, right, 252 00:15:13,676 --> 00:15:17,036 Speaker 1: Like I can be seen potentially by everyone on the 253 00:15:17,036 --> 00:15:20,236 Speaker 1: Internet or no one. But having that sense of kind 254 00:15:20,236 --> 00:15:23,756 Speaker 1: of intuitive modulation isn't isn't part of the picture. The 255 00:15:23,876 --> 00:15:26,796 Speaker 1: other thing that folks like White and Jane Jacobs have 256 00:15:27,676 --> 00:15:30,916 Speaker 1: pointed to is like, part of this is about design, 257 00:15:30,956 --> 00:15:34,236 Speaker 1: and part of it's about people and programming. When you 258 00:15:34,276 --> 00:15:36,996 Speaker 1: look at spaces that are flourishing, there are a bunch 259 00:15:36,996 --> 00:15:39,076 Speaker 1: of people who kind of take some ownership or some 260 00:15:39,116 --> 00:15:43,276 Speaker 1: stewardship of those spaces, their activities that happen there that 261 00:15:43,396 --> 00:15:46,156 Speaker 1: draw people in. It's not just like a blank canvas. 262 00:15:46,396 --> 00:15:48,316 Speaker 1: And this for me was one of the big kind 263 00:15:48,316 --> 00:15:51,036 Speaker 1: of aha moments in this work that I've been doing 264 00:15:51,116 --> 00:15:54,676 Speaker 1: right now, because it's such a contrast to the kind 265 00:15:54,716 --> 00:15:58,716 Speaker 1: of Twitter notion of like let's build the minimal communications 266 00:15:58,796 --> 00:16:02,636 Speaker 1: platform and see you know what emerges from that. This 267 00:16:02,676 --> 00:16:05,236 Speaker 1: is really saying like, no, you've got to be really conscientious, 268 00:16:05,356 --> 00:16:07,996 Speaker 1: and this is what people observe about parts that are 269 00:16:08,036 --> 00:16:10,236 Speaker 1: really working, and especially that are working to be kind 270 00:16:10,236 --> 00:16:14,236 Speaker 1: of inclusive and equitable. You're thinking very actively about like 271 00:16:14,516 --> 00:16:17,236 Speaker 1: what's going to get which communities out and how do 272 00:16:17,276 --> 00:16:21,036 Speaker 1: we build the right kinds of activities and spaces that 273 00:16:21,156 --> 00:16:24,396 Speaker 1: are going to serve those communities. And ultimately a lot 274 00:16:24,436 --> 00:16:26,876 Speaker 1: of the time it comes down to co design. So 275 00:16:27,036 --> 00:16:29,676 Speaker 1: how are we actually working with the people in this 276 00:16:29,716 --> 00:16:32,836 Speaker 1: community together to come up with what we want this 277 00:16:32,956 --> 00:16:37,716 Speaker 1: space to be? You know, that to me is pretty 278 00:16:37,756 --> 00:16:41,396 Speaker 1: far from what it feels like to be on Facebook 279 00:16:41,476 --> 00:16:45,436 Speaker 1: or start a Facebook group. Yeah. When I think about 280 00:16:45,516 --> 00:16:50,596 Speaker 1: pro social behavior on digital media, the thing that springs 281 00:16:50,596 --> 00:16:54,156 Speaker 1: first to mind is Wikipedia, which is a company that's 282 00:16:54,276 --> 00:16:56,916 Speaker 1: it's a not for profit. It has a very large 283 00:16:56,956 --> 00:17:00,796 Speaker 1: number of very dedicated volunteers. You know, I'm sure there 284 00:17:00,836 --> 00:17:04,476 Speaker 1: are all sorts of this, all sorts of partisanship and stuff, 285 00:17:04,476 --> 00:17:06,196 Speaker 1: but there are also people who are very committed to 286 00:17:06,196 --> 00:17:09,756 Speaker 1: weeding it out. And often when you go to Wikipedia, 287 00:17:09,796 --> 00:17:13,476 Speaker 1: you find exactly what you're looking for, gives you the references, 288 00:17:13,516 --> 00:17:16,476 Speaker 1: and sometimes you find things that are like incredibly good. 289 00:17:16,756 --> 00:17:20,276 Speaker 1: And you know, volunteers have done this out of a 290 00:17:20,396 --> 00:17:22,596 Speaker 1: sense of you know, they enjoy doing it, but it's 291 00:17:22,636 --> 00:17:25,796 Speaker 1: it's for public good. How do you cultivate that? Well, 292 00:17:25,876 --> 00:17:28,236 Speaker 1: if you agree with me about Wikipedia, yeah, are there 293 00:17:28,276 --> 00:17:32,276 Speaker 1: other examples and how do we spread that ethic. I 294 00:17:32,356 --> 00:17:36,716 Speaker 1: totally agree about the promise of Wikipedia, and I think 295 00:17:36,756 --> 00:17:40,596 Speaker 1: it's also worth really noting again that you know, Wikipedia 296 00:17:41,316 --> 00:17:43,876 Speaker 1: is so amazing in so many ways, but even now 297 00:17:44,436 --> 00:17:48,036 Speaker 1: the ratio of male to female editors is like two 298 00:17:48,076 --> 00:17:50,396 Speaker 1: to one, and that's after a lot of hard work 299 00:17:50,476 --> 00:17:53,676 Speaker 1: by the Alcohen CEO Katherine Maher to like pull in 300 00:17:53,796 --> 00:17:57,036 Speaker 1: more female editors. And it had real consequences in terms 301 00:17:57,076 --> 00:18:01,516 Speaker 1: of what stories, you know, what articles got put on Wikipedia, 302 00:18:01,916 --> 00:18:04,196 Speaker 1: because you would have these kind of like, you know, 303 00:18:05,236 --> 00:18:08,716 Speaker 1: ninety page treatises on some Maga character that was a 304 00:18:08,796 --> 00:18:12,476 Speaker 1: venture us to like dudes who are nerds, and you know, 305 00:18:12,556 --> 00:18:15,476 Speaker 1: not the most basic information about Mary Cury or whoever. 306 00:18:15,796 --> 00:18:19,716 Speaker 1: So the point there is, I think the fallacy was 307 00:18:20,516 --> 00:18:23,236 Speaker 1: we'll just let everyone, anyone edit without a whole lot 308 00:18:23,236 --> 00:18:26,476 Speaker 1: of structure, and we'll find our community. And that kind 309 00:18:26,476 --> 00:18:28,596 Speaker 1: of worked, but it kind of didn't. And so I 310 00:18:28,636 --> 00:18:31,876 Speaker 1: guess the point is until they really started thinking seriously 311 00:18:31,916 --> 00:18:34,436 Speaker 1: about how do we get women editors, how do we 312 00:18:34,476 --> 00:18:37,436 Speaker 1: get editors from the global South, there were these big 313 00:18:37,476 --> 00:18:40,396 Speaker 1: gaps in what that product was. And so to me, 314 00:18:40,476 --> 00:18:43,436 Speaker 1: it's sort of just saying social problems are a bigger 315 00:18:43,476 --> 00:18:46,436 Speaker 1: part of the challenge than the technology problems. Where do 316 00:18:46,476 --> 00:18:49,116 Speaker 1: you see social media working? I mean, what are the 317 00:18:49,156 --> 00:18:52,756 Speaker 1: positive examples to build on in your mind? What's interesting 318 00:18:52,796 --> 00:18:56,396 Speaker 1: is when you get away from the need to show 319 00:18:56,596 --> 00:18:59,876 Speaker 1: a kind of like exponential up into the right growth curve, 320 00:19:00,276 --> 00:19:03,676 Speaker 1: there are lots of wonderful examples of communities that are 321 00:19:03,676 --> 00:19:06,916 Speaker 1: really functioning. One that I like to think about is 322 00:19:07,636 --> 00:19:12,956 Speaker 1: a platform in Vermont Front Porch Forum, which is it's 323 00:19:12,996 --> 00:19:19,276 Speaker 1: basically like a heavily moderated daily newsletter for your geographic area, 324 00:19:19,356 --> 00:19:22,196 Speaker 1: and anyone can post. You have to prove that you 325 00:19:22,236 --> 00:19:26,396 Speaker 1: live there. But if you write a nasty note or whatever, 326 00:19:26,836 --> 00:19:29,716 Speaker 1: it's sent back to you with a nice little like, hey, Eli, 327 00:19:29,796 --> 00:19:32,636 Speaker 1: it sounds like you're having a moment. Can you rewrite this? 328 00:19:33,276 --> 00:19:36,596 Speaker 1: And because you can only post once a day, like, 329 00:19:36,636 --> 00:19:40,196 Speaker 1: it's really hard to maintain a flame war for like 330 00:19:40,516 --> 00:19:43,436 Speaker 1: seventeen days running. It's possible, but you really got to 331 00:19:43,476 --> 00:19:45,916 Speaker 1: be into it, you know. I think that's a really 332 00:19:45,956 --> 00:19:50,436 Speaker 1: interesting example of like if you increase moderation and you 333 00:19:51,076 --> 00:19:55,396 Speaker 1: don't focus on engagement over you know, minutes and seconds, 334 00:19:55,436 --> 00:19:58,276 Speaker 1: but you're thinking about long term you can actually create 335 00:19:58,316 --> 00:20:02,356 Speaker 1: these really different kinds of conversations. And in Vermont, even 336 00:20:02,396 --> 00:20:04,996 Speaker 1: as Facebook use has gone up, two thirds of a 337 00:20:05,076 --> 00:20:08,956 Speaker 1: Vermont households are on front porch forum. So again it's 338 00:20:08,956 --> 00:20:13,156 Speaker 1: like if you were just trying to maximize engagement, it 339 00:20:13,196 --> 00:20:16,116 Speaker 1: wouldn't be the most effective way. Like flame wars are 340 00:20:16,156 --> 00:20:18,716 Speaker 1: great for engagement, but they're not actually very good for 341 00:20:18,996 --> 00:20:23,396 Speaker 1: substantive community conversation. I mean two thirds of households. That 342 00:20:23,436 --> 00:20:27,436 Speaker 1: sounds incredible, you know, is that just because things are 343 00:20:27,516 --> 00:20:30,316 Speaker 1: like that in Vermont and they're very specific minded and 344 00:20:30,516 --> 00:20:32,436 Speaker 1: people get along with each other. I mean, if you 345 00:20:32,476 --> 00:20:35,676 Speaker 1: try to do that in Florida, Arizona, you know, do 346 00:20:35,676 --> 00:20:37,836 Speaker 1: you think the same thing can work? Yeah, I mean 347 00:20:37,876 --> 00:20:40,796 Speaker 1: I think both. I really feel like it wouldn't be 348 00:20:40,876 --> 00:20:42,836 Speaker 1: the exact same thing. And I think this is one 349 00:20:42,836 --> 00:20:45,316 Speaker 1: of the challenges that we have with our tech environment 350 00:20:45,396 --> 00:20:49,276 Speaker 1: right now. It's just I really think there is no 351 00:20:49,316 --> 00:20:52,836 Speaker 1: one algorithm that is going to work for three billion humans. 352 00:20:53,356 --> 00:20:56,956 Speaker 1: It seems like that's just a very hard task from 353 00:20:57,356 --> 00:21:00,556 Speaker 1: the start. So figuring out how you build some of 354 00:21:00,636 --> 00:21:04,276 Speaker 1: the local character and local community into the spaces that 355 00:21:04,316 --> 00:21:08,396 Speaker 1: we're all relating in actually seems really important. But that said, 356 00:21:08,436 --> 00:21:13,636 Speaker 1: I think, you know, making healthy, flourishing communities is both 357 00:21:13,836 --> 00:21:17,756 Speaker 1: really difficult and not that difficult. And the part that 358 00:21:18,556 --> 00:21:20,916 Speaker 1: is not that difficult is you just need people who 359 00:21:20,956 --> 00:21:24,156 Speaker 1: are willing to spend a lot of effort making it 360 00:21:24,196 --> 00:21:28,276 Speaker 1: good and doing the hard work of like setting up 361 00:21:28,276 --> 00:21:32,236 Speaker 1: the events, managing different groups of people that may be 362 00:21:32,276 --> 00:21:37,276 Speaker 1: antagonistic to each other, building a sense of community identity. 363 00:21:37,756 --> 00:21:39,836 Speaker 1: And I feel like in the physical world there are 364 00:21:39,876 --> 00:21:43,396 Speaker 1: people who have those jobs. They're like the park you know, 365 00:21:43,516 --> 00:21:48,396 Speaker 1: activities coordinator, or the librarian or the social worker. They 366 00:21:48,516 --> 00:21:52,756 Speaker 1: like do those functions. We rely on, you know, kind 367 00:21:52,756 --> 00:21:56,596 Speaker 1: of volunteer moderators who have other jobs to do that 368 00:21:56,676 --> 00:21:59,396 Speaker 1: in digital life, and so I think that's the part 369 00:21:59,436 --> 00:22:01,476 Speaker 1: that's like, it's not that hard. It's just a lot 370 00:22:01,516 --> 00:22:04,036 Speaker 1: of work and it's expensive, and if you're trying to 371 00:22:04,036 --> 00:22:06,556 Speaker 1: create something that has a great growth curve, it's the 372 00:22:06,596 --> 00:22:08,636 Speaker 1: first thing that you take out of the balance sheet. 373 00:22:09,196 --> 00:22:12,836 Speaker 1: But there's a gap between people's express preferences and they're 374 00:22:12,836 --> 00:22:16,276 Speaker 1: revealed preferences. When you ask people, they often say they 375 00:22:16,276 --> 00:22:18,596 Speaker 1: want to hear a big range of viewpoints. They want 376 00:22:18,636 --> 00:22:21,956 Speaker 1: to be informed citizens, They want to participate in a civil, 377 00:22:22,556 --> 00:22:25,116 Speaker 1: constructive dialogue, and yeah, they'd like to be on a 378 00:22:25,156 --> 00:22:28,636 Speaker 1: social media platform that does that. But in fact, when 379 00:22:29,236 --> 00:22:33,116 Speaker 1: I mean from on Front Porch, sounds like it's an exception, 380 00:22:33,876 --> 00:22:36,156 Speaker 1: but a lot of the attempts I've seen to try 381 00:22:36,156 --> 00:22:42,676 Speaker 1: to create those more socially constructive forums flounder because people 382 00:22:42,756 --> 00:22:45,516 Speaker 1: don't find them as enjoyable. You know, when it comes 383 00:22:45,516 --> 00:22:48,756 Speaker 1: down to it, that's that's spinach, and there's there's candy 384 00:22:48,836 --> 00:22:52,516 Speaker 1: over a Twitter, right, and and you know, I'm not 385 00:22:52,676 --> 00:22:56,116 Speaker 1: someone who who wants to take candy away from anyone, 386 00:22:56,236 --> 00:23:00,076 Speaker 1: But I really think it's about actually increasing the diversity 387 00:23:00,116 --> 00:23:02,876 Speaker 1: of the options that we have for different ways of 388 00:23:02,916 --> 00:23:06,596 Speaker 1: relating to each other. Those two pieces can coexist, just 389 00:23:06,716 --> 00:23:09,316 Speaker 1: like you know, you have parks and then you have 390 00:23:09,356 --> 00:23:13,276 Speaker 1: amusement parks or whatever. Do you see positive things happening 391 00:23:13,476 --> 00:23:17,316 Speaker 1: anywhere in commercial social media either? I mean, these platforms 392 00:23:17,316 --> 00:23:19,956 Speaker 1: all have a different personality, and some of them at 393 00:23:19,996 --> 00:23:23,316 Speaker 1: least seem much less virulent. But you know, the kind 394 00:23:23,356 --> 00:23:26,956 Speaker 1: of thing you admire on Vermont Front Porch. Yeah, do 395 00:23:26,956 --> 00:23:30,116 Speaker 1: you see like the indications of that breaking out any 396 00:23:30,116 --> 00:23:32,556 Speaker 1: work in the commercial world. Yeah, I mean, I think 397 00:23:32,556 --> 00:23:36,796 Speaker 1: there are pieces all over the place. Talian I did 398 00:23:36,796 --> 00:23:39,916 Speaker 1: some so basically part of our work was trying to 399 00:23:40,076 --> 00:23:46,476 Speaker 1: identify the fourteen kind of qualities of healthy digital public spaces, 400 00:23:46,836 --> 00:23:49,396 Speaker 1: what we're calling kind of the signals, and we did 401 00:23:49,396 --> 00:23:52,996 Speaker 1: this survey where we asked people about different platforms and 402 00:23:53,036 --> 00:23:56,276 Speaker 1: how they felt the platforms were doing on those signals. 403 00:23:56,916 --> 00:24:00,076 Speaker 1: Reddit got pretty high marks on a number of these 404 00:24:00,156 --> 00:24:04,436 Speaker 1: kind of community functions from its users relative to a 405 00:24:04,436 --> 00:24:07,356 Speaker 1: Facebook or Twitter or some of these others. I think 406 00:24:07,836 --> 00:24:11,036 Speaker 1: that scans became as Reddit has been much more thoughtful 407 00:24:11,116 --> 00:24:13,876 Speaker 1: from the beginning about kind of how do you build 408 00:24:13,956 --> 00:24:18,996 Speaker 1: a sense of norms that are enforceable around these sub communities. 409 00:24:19,316 --> 00:24:21,556 Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean that you don't have the Donald 410 00:24:21,636 --> 00:24:23,636 Speaker 1: or you know, some of these other you know, pretty 411 00:24:23,676 --> 00:24:28,676 Speaker 1: toxic subreddits, but it does mean that at least, you know, 412 00:24:28,716 --> 00:24:30,436 Speaker 1: if you're a person who wants to take on the 413 00:24:30,476 --> 00:24:33,316 Speaker 1: task of building a community, you have some of the 414 00:24:33,316 --> 00:24:35,276 Speaker 1: tools that you need in order to do that well 415 00:24:35,316 --> 00:24:37,236 Speaker 1: and it doesn't become a kind of free for all 416 00:24:37,356 --> 00:24:41,196 Speaker 1: or you know, only the most high engaging posts, when 417 00:24:41,836 --> 00:24:45,436 Speaker 1: there's definitely like a step forward from what you can 418 00:24:45,596 --> 00:24:49,236 Speaker 1: see in some places on Twitter. Yeah. I started working 419 00:24:49,396 --> 00:24:51,476 Speaker 1: on the internet in nineteen ninety six at Slade, and 420 00:24:51,516 --> 00:24:53,876 Speaker 1: we had something called the Fray, which was an early 421 00:24:53,996 --> 00:24:57,436 Speaker 1: you know, open discussion board, and you know, we saw 422 00:24:57,716 --> 00:24:59,796 Speaker 1: had a preview of a lot of them. But one 423 00:24:59,876 --> 00:25:03,036 Speaker 1: of the things that was most apparent was the more 424 00:25:03,196 --> 00:25:05,956 Speaker 1: knowledge that was required to participate in the discussion, the 425 00:25:05,996 --> 00:25:09,676 Speaker 1: better that discussion was. So something on which everybody had 426 00:25:09,676 --> 00:25:13,716 Speaker 1: an opinion, ie, you know, presidential election politics generally would 427 00:25:13,756 --> 00:25:17,916 Speaker 1: tend to degenerate pretty quickly. But if we had a 428 00:25:18,316 --> 00:25:22,316 Speaker 1: we did have a you know, threat about the weekly poem, 429 00:25:22,476 --> 00:25:25,676 Speaker 1: you know, and there was that was that was optimal. 430 00:25:25,836 --> 00:25:27,996 Speaker 1: I mean, the only people who participate in that were 431 00:25:28,036 --> 00:25:30,796 Speaker 1: people who liked poetry. A lot of them knew something 432 00:25:30,836 --> 00:25:34,236 Speaker 1: about it. It was a great conversation. But similarly, something 433 00:25:34,236 --> 00:25:38,116 Speaker 1: that involved technical expertise you'd have a pretty good discussion 434 00:25:38,116 --> 00:25:41,436 Speaker 1: about because the people who were sort of know nothings 435 00:25:41,476 --> 00:25:44,796 Speaker 1: and just wanted to be disruptive didn't really have so 436 00:25:44,876 --> 00:25:47,316 Speaker 1: much of a way to participate. Right. I think it's 437 00:25:47,356 --> 00:25:52,716 Speaker 1: important to say that good social media both means you know, 438 00:25:52,796 --> 00:25:55,956 Speaker 1: having difficult conversations in a different way, but it also 439 00:25:56,036 --> 00:26:00,436 Speaker 1: means finding other conversations to have that aren't the incendiary 440 00:26:00,516 --> 00:26:03,356 Speaker 1: political ones. When you think about all of the civic 441 00:26:03,396 --> 00:26:06,876 Speaker 1: spaces in a community, there are very few that are like, 442 00:26:07,156 --> 00:26:09,036 Speaker 1: here's the place where you go when you want to 443 00:26:09,156 --> 00:26:11,516 Speaker 1: walk up to strangers and tell them what you really 444 00:26:11,516 --> 00:26:14,516 Speaker 1: think about the most intense political beliefs that you have. 445 00:26:14,956 --> 00:26:17,756 Speaker 1: That's not a thing for a reason, mostly, which is 446 00:26:17,796 --> 00:26:20,716 Speaker 1: it's very unpleasant and it doesn't work out well. Instead, 447 00:26:20,796 --> 00:26:25,036 Speaker 1: we've got basketball courts and tennis courts and community centers 448 00:26:25,036 --> 00:26:27,556 Speaker 1: and all these other places which are really about like 449 00:26:27,836 --> 00:26:33,756 Speaker 1: coexisting across lines of difference, not about like digging into 450 00:26:34,116 --> 00:26:38,996 Speaker 1: the places of deepest disagreement. And I think figuring out 451 00:26:39,076 --> 00:26:43,436 Speaker 1: how to build more of those spaces digitally is just 452 00:26:43,516 --> 00:26:46,076 Speaker 1: as important as solving the problem of like how do 453 00:26:46,116 --> 00:26:51,156 Speaker 1: we argue argue better or more civilly. Yeah, well, you're 454 00:26:51,196 --> 00:26:53,876 Speaker 1: starting to sound like Marshall McLuhan, which you know very 455 00:26:53,956 --> 00:26:55,876 Speaker 1: much agree with that there are things about the mode 456 00:26:55,876 --> 00:27:00,116 Speaker 1: of communication that end up dictating the tone and they've 457 00:27:00,276 --> 00:27:03,356 Speaker 1: the content. Yeah, I mean, I think we'll look back. 458 00:27:03,596 --> 00:27:05,716 Speaker 1: I do think we'll look back in ten years or 459 00:27:05,716 --> 00:27:08,116 Speaker 1: twenty years at this era of the Internet and be 460 00:27:08,236 --> 00:27:11,436 Speaker 1: like in a sort of amused way, like it's so 461 00:27:11,516 --> 00:27:14,756 Speaker 1: crazy and kind of cute that we thought that you 462 00:27:14,756 --> 00:27:19,276 Speaker 1: could connect, you know, all of human society through like 463 00:27:19,756 --> 00:27:22,396 Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty or two hundred and thirty character 464 00:27:23,036 --> 00:27:27,236 Speaker 1: you know, snippets of text. That's like a really hard 465 00:27:27,796 --> 00:27:32,156 Speaker 1: medium to connect people together. And you know, when we're 466 00:27:32,156 --> 00:27:35,956 Speaker 1: all living in whatever weird you know, augmented reality world, 467 00:27:35,996 --> 00:27:39,996 Speaker 1: I think we'll look back at this with some amusement. Yeah, well, 468 00:27:39,996 --> 00:27:42,716 Speaker 1: if you're not waiting around for Facebook and the other 469 00:27:42,756 --> 00:27:45,236 Speaker 1: social media companies to solve this problem on their own, 470 00:27:45,276 --> 00:27:47,996 Speaker 1: and I don't think either of us are. I wonder 471 00:27:48,116 --> 00:27:51,956 Speaker 1: what you can do to help solve the problem. How 472 00:27:51,996 --> 00:27:58,076 Speaker 1: can listeners fight polarization and social media and contribute to 473 00:27:58,636 --> 00:28:02,636 Speaker 1: more more constructive kinds of interactions. There's two pieces. One 474 00:28:02,796 --> 00:28:06,996 Speaker 1: is the value for everyone of those people who take 475 00:28:07,196 --> 00:28:11,396 Speaker 1: kind of ownership of making a space hospitable and welcoming 476 00:28:11,556 --> 00:28:15,756 Speaker 1: and doing the hard work of mediating between the different 477 00:28:15,796 --> 00:28:18,076 Speaker 1: people who are there and figuring out who's not there 478 00:28:18,076 --> 00:28:21,476 Speaker 1: who should be taking on those jobs at a kind 479 00:28:21,516 --> 00:28:25,276 Speaker 1: of social fabric level really matters. So that's I think 480 00:28:25,636 --> 00:28:28,436 Speaker 1: one place to go. I think the other places I'm 481 00:28:28,476 --> 00:28:31,796 Speaker 1: really excited about this kind of explosion that we're moving 482 00:28:31,796 --> 00:28:37,316 Speaker 1: into of other models for digital social spaces with parks 483 00:28:37,316 --> 00:28:41,356 Speaker 1: and with libraries. They're also mundane and every day that 484 00:28:41,396 --> 00:28:44,996 Speaker 1: we can forget that it took these real social movements 485 00:28:45,076 --> 00:28:48,756 Speaker 1: in moments of great upheaval to set up those kinds 486 00:28:48,756 --> 00:28:52,116 Speaker 1: of institutions, and I think now is this moment where 487 00:28:52,156 --> 00:28:54,636 Speaker 1: we need some new kinds of institutions to deal with 488 00:28:54,676 --> 00:28:57,036 Speaker 1: the upheavals who we're facing now. And so I'm just 489 00:28:57,076 --> 00:28:59,596 Speaker 1: really excited about people joining that. And I think it's 490 00:28:59,596 --> 00:29:01,836 Speaker 1: a project that you don't have to be, you know, 491 00:29:01,996 --> 00:29:07,396 Speaker 1: a coder to be able to contribute to how was 492 00:29:07,476 --> 00:29:11,836 Speaker 1: Eli pariser He and Alia Stroud codirect the Civic Signals project. 493 00:29:12,276 --> 00:29:14,716 Speaker 1: Will include a link to their work in our show notes. 494 00:29:15,156 --> 00:29:17,916 Speaker 1: Will also include links to the writers that Eli mentioned, 495 00:29:18,156 --> 00:29:20,196 Speaker 1: so that you can learn more about ways to get 496 00:29:20,236 --> 00:29:24,476 Speaker 1: involved designing and supporting more civically minded social media is 497 00:29:24,596 --> 00:29:27,356 Speaker 1: one part of the solution to the divisions we face. 498 00:29:28,316 --> 00:29:32,556 Speaker 1: Large companies, with their proprietary algorithms, will continue to impact 499 00:29:32,596 --> 00:29:35,916 Speaker 1: the health of the metaphorical air and water of our 500 00:29:35,956 --> 00:29:41,516 Speaker 1: so called digital cities. Next week, our polarization series continues 501 00:29:41,596 --> 00:29:46,836 Speaker 1: with a conversation with Cornell professor Nathan Bettius. He thinks 502 00:29:46,836 --> 00:29:49,556 Speaker 1: that just as Americle works to ensure its food safety 503 00:29:49,596 --> 00:29:52,956 Speaker 1: and air quality, it ought to enforce health standards around 504 00:29:52,996 --> 00:29:56,476 Speaker 1: algorithms too. I hope he'll join us for that conversation. 505 00:29:57,396 --> 00:30:01,116 Speaker 1: Solvable Senior producer is Jocelyn Frank, Research in Booking by 506 00:30:01,156 --> 00:30:04,796 Speaker 1: Lisa Dunn. Catherine Girardot is our managing producer, and our 507 00:30:04,836 --> 00:30:08,916 Speaker 1: executive producer is Mia Loebell. Solvable is a production of 508 00:30:09,116 --> 00:30:12,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. If you like the show, please remember to share, rate, 509 00:30:12,796 --> 00:30:15,156 Speaker 1: and review us really helps to get the word out. 510 00:30:16,036 --> 00:30:19,516 Speaker 1: You can find Pushkin podcasts wherever you listen, including on 511 00:30:19,596 --> 00:30:24,236 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app and Apple Podcasts. I'm Jacob Weisberg.