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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome my favorite murder. That's Georgia hard Start,

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Speaker 1: that's Karen Kilgariff. I'm shit all over my hand.

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Speaker 2: She's having a night, She's having a day, a night,

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Speaker 2: a year.

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Speaker 1: This feels and it's very stolen valor for me to

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Speaker 1: make this comparison. But coming back from a Thanksgiving break

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Speaker 1: to wait to go to on Christmas break very much

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Speaker 1: feels like when I first heard that they used to

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Speaker 1: make soldiers in Vietnam go for two weeks to like

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Speaker 1: meet their wives in Hawaii, right, and then come back

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Speaker 1: to war, where I'm like, wait, that's a horrible thing

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Speaker 1: to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I hear you. We have two more weeks until

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Speaker 2: we're on Christmas break. Yes, And this is hard to

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Speaker 2: go back, Like we went on tour, I was insane.

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Speaker 2: I still can't get over the back that it's over,

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Speaker 2: Like I'm still I believe that I know. And then

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Speaker 2: it's also like hard to go away from, like people

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Speaker 2: cheering from you for you forever. And then also now

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Speaker 2: it's like welcome back.

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Speaker 1: For two weeks, no one was excited to see me.

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Speaker 1: When I went home for Thanksgiving, someone cheered in I

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Speaker 1: kept looking at people going you do realize that I'd

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Speaker 1: just been spent three months experiencing.

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Speaker 2: Do you know who I think I am?

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Speaker 1: You better get on board with this.

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Speaker 2: How are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm good? I because we've been on tour. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to bring the dogs home for Thanksgiving, so I drove

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Speaker 1: up north. As if I don't count in the big

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Speaker 1: Thanksgiving travel nightmare. It's different for you. It's like different me.

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Speaker 1: I've been doing this for so long, I know how

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Speaker 1: to do it or something. The way home, it took

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Speaker 1: me twelve hours to get from San Francisco to Los Angeles.

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Speaker 2: Everyone needs to know it's six hour drive usually.

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Speaker 1: So it's as if I drove home to Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: and then back to San Francisco.

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Speaker 2: Essentially that feeling when you get to the Grapevine and

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Speaker 2: you're like, I'm almost there, but you're fucking not almost there,

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Speaker 2: because that's when the worst of the traffic.

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Speaker 1: Starts, because the ninety nine and then this thing with

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Speaker 1: the trucks comes and it is like a big nightmare,

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Speaker 1: big why of traffic, and then you sit there for

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Speaker 1: three more hours.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I'm sorry to deal with that. Listen, I'm at home.

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Speaker 1: It was you were excellent? Were you fully rested?

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Speaker 2: Right? Now, I don't want to tell you. I don't

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Speaker 2: want to say I don't want to make you go bad,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, pretty fucking rest. I did a nice ketamine

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Speaker 2: session over the weekend.

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Speaker 1: Hey, what does that mean?

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Speaker 2: Therapeutic ketamine?

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Speaker 1: You and some horses.

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Speaker 2: I went to the stables and kenemine and yeah, I'm rested.

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Speaker 2: I'm very rested and like clear minded. And I gave

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Speaker 2: you drugs just now though too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, George and I are doing drugs before the show.

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Speaker 1: It's a thing we're going to try out. See it

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Speaker 1: worked for Fleetwood Mac and we think it's going to

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Speaker 1: work for us.

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Speaker 2: It's just nicotine pouches. That is my like new thing.

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Speaker 1: I discovered it that Georgia was doing nicotine pouches, not

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Speaker 1: patches while we were on tour, doing both but pouches. Oh,

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Speaker 1: you're shooting it all. But then right before we started,

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Speaker 1: I was like, I drove over at twelve hours. Georgie

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Speaker 1: was like, do you want to travel on a nickete pouse?

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Speaker 2: It felt like such a I have definitely been when

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Speaker 2: I was younger, the girl who gave someone their first cigarette. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I was that, don't hang out with her. She's

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Speaker 2: a bad influenced person entirely. So I totally have flashbacks

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Speaker 2: to that with you. Yeah, just now, and it felt

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Speaker 2: kind of good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great feeling.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 1: It's the full rebel. It's like day drinking. We're like

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Speaker 1: not supposed to do it?

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Speaker 2: Do it? Do it? Do it? We corrupt you. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's fun for everyone, come over to our side. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we shouldn't get We shouldn't drink, right, it's stay. We

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Speaker 2: shouldn't have a drink, right, No, do you want to

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Speaker 2: have we should get a bottle?

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Speaker 1: And also it's like, are you super tired? This might work?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, but it's something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, are you feeling it?

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Speaker 1: I think I do. There's like a I feel like

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Speaker 1: things got a little more in focus.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: It does. Yeah. I did it so hard the other

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Speaker 2: day that I was such in such a good mood

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Speaker 2: that I called my mom and I had a great

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Speaker 2: conversation with her, which only happens when I have at

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Speaker 2: least one drink and we have a great conversation about

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Speaker 2: cats and about you know, nice things flowers. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but this time you were just like, oh, what's up?

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Speaker 2: I love you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean Look, as my therapist said, and I've

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Speaker 1: said a million times on the show, everybody needs a

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Speaker 1: little oblivion. They do, and even if it's nicotine oblivion

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Speaker 1: in a pouch like you're an old cowboy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love the I do too much oblivion. I

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Speaker 2: do what my therapist calls I win by losing, where

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Speaker 2: it's like I get back at something i'm mad at

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Speaker 2: by drinking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And it's not hurting the thing I'm mad at. No,

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Speaker 2: it's fucking up the thing I am, which is you,

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Speaker 2: which is me? Yep. Always I know.

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Speaker 1: But it's like then they shouldn't have invented it, and

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Speaker 1: they shouldn't have made it so effective, truly. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I have to say on par with drinking, though, what

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Speaker 1: we did a lot this holiday, I guess week weekend

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Speaker 1: was we played a lot of games. So it was

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Speaker 1: like Thanksgiving nine.

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Speaker 2: You guys love that shit.

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Speaker 1: We love games. The one that I really love is

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Speaker 1: the three. It's basically three rounds of charades where you

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Speaker 1: get to say full sentences. The first round one word,

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Speaker 1: the second round. Charade's the last round, but you have

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Speaker 1: to remember the clues people gave on the other teams

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Speaker 1: because it goes back in the same bowl, so.

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Speaker 2: You just point at that person.

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Speaker 1: Be likely I did exactly like that, and then like

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Speaker 1: bowling or whatever, and then people know, Okay, yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: very fun. And it's fun because people think they're not

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Speaker 1: going to be good at it, and they're great at

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Speaker 1: it because they just want to win. And it's hilarious.

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Speaker 2: We just played Jenga.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's good on a cruise cruise game, I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: of those. Have you seen those? Hilarious? Yeah, that's you

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Speaker 1: know what it is, whether it's drinking nicotine pouches, are

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Speaker 1: just like agreed upon fun. I want that cruise in

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Speaker 1: the afternoon feel.

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Speaker 2: I've never been on a cruise and I want that too.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know really what you mean, but I

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Speaker 2: bet I guess post snap yep, pre dinner. Yeah, like

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Speaker 2: cocktail hour.

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Speaker 1: Everyone's agreed that no one's gonna to talk about work

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Speaker 1: or no one's going to be worried. We're all just

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Speaker 1: gonna be weird versions of ourselves and have fun. No WiFi,

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Speaker 1: no Wi Fi, you don't need it. Everyone's in there

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Speaker 1: like socks and stuff. No one's in their shoes. I

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Speaker 1: get really like up titans, like are you about to leave.

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Speaker 1: Where are you going take those shoes? Yes, you have

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Speaker 1: to take your shoes off, and somebody has to spill

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Speaker 1: red wine on the carpet. So the consult up a

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Speaker 1: red wine stain.

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Speaker 2: I got it a minding one.

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Speaker 1: That's what Sophie did it to Anna. And it was

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Speaker 1: this big, huge thing and we couldn't stop laughing because

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Speaker 1: my aunt Jean who was there, and my mom every

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Speaker 1: single time we got together, someone would spill red wine

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Speaker 1: on the carpet. So it was like just the perfect

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Speaker 1: it's good luck.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, speaking of good luck, this is my favorite. No,

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Speaker 2: we don't do that anymore, but that's a live show thing,

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Speaker 2: I know. And that's that.

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Speaker 1: It's over.

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Speaker 2: We have some responses from you guys. We sent out

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Speaker 2: our newsletter asking you what what you're thankful.

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Speaker 1: For Thanksgiving in general, if you have anything to tell

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Speaker 1: us about stuff that went down, or yes, what you're

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Speaker 1: thankful for anything?

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Speaker 2: Okay, I write sweet one. Okay, here's mine. This one

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Speaker 2: is called thank you for more than just the tough times.

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Speaker 2: Dear Karen Georgia and the MFM team. I wanted to

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Speaker 2: take a moment to thank you for getting me through

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Speaker 2: not only the tough times, but also for teaching me

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Speaker 2: how to embrace the good ones. I may not be

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Speaker 2: your typical fan or listener. I'm a forty seven year

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Speaker 2: old Mexican father of two daughters twenty one and twenty four,

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Speaker 2: living up here in Edmunds, Washington. But I've been with

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Speaker 2: you since day one, a brother from another mother. As

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Speaker 2: they say, Yes, your insight and humor gave me the

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Speaker 2: tools to better communicate with my daughters.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I've passed.

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Speaker 2: Along the MFM protocols, encourage them to stand up for

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Speaker 2: what they believe in and remind them that caring for

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Speaker 2: their four legged friends is just as beneficial to their

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Speaker 2: own well being. Yes, those lessons have meant more to

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Speaker 2: me than you know. Although I have two sisters of

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Speaker 2: my own, you both have become the West Coast Sisters.

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Speaker 2: I never knew I needed.

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Speaker 1: This guy's trying to make me cry. I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to do it.

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Speaker 2: It says a bunch of really sweet things, and then

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Speaker 2: it says thank you for being exactly who you are

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Speaker 2: and for letting me be part of this community with

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Speaker 2: warmth and love. SSDGM Angel, this is such a delight

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Speaker 2: to know that you are here with us, Sweet baby,

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Speaker 2: Angel's here with us, sweet.

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Speaker 1: Baby Angel, we should send him a shirt.

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Speaker 2: Let's do it. Well.

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Speaker 1: This goes very much along with that email, and it

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Speaker 1: just says, hello, ladies, and felicitous compliments of the holiday

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Speaker 1: season to you.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, it's the.

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Speaker 1: Monopoly Man English major. Oh so I thought of something

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Speaker 1: that might help you. With Folks who frown upon the

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Speaker 1: idea of a true crime comedy podcast, tell them it's

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Speaker 1: just like how the TV show Mash is a comedy

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Speaker 1: about war. Oh how genius?

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Speaker 2: Is that? Brilliant? Like a dark comedy? Right?

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Speaker 1: This ought to helps soothe people's feelings, well, at least

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Speaker 1: people over forty years ago. Seriously, And then it says,

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Speaker 1: saw you in Chicago? You were great, Jenny. Isn't that nice?

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Speaker 2: It's so nice. I love that.

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Speaker 1: It's like, if you're listening to this podcast and you

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Speaker 1: think of things like that, if you have tips or

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Speaker 1: tricks for us, right, hopefully you know, what do you.

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Speaker 2: Tell your friends when you're like, you should listen to

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Speaker 2: this podcast. It's I know it sounds, but it's like,

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Speaker 2: what is that? Right? We want to know?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and Angel, if you have some suggestions, you've been

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Speaker 1: here since day one, get in here, get back in here.

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Speaker 2: Back in here, Angel recording from Angel.

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Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for that tip from Jenny and for

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Speaker 1: Angel writing.

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Speaker 2: Thanks guys, exciting. Hey, we have a podcast network. It's

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Speaker 2: called Exactly Right Media. Here are some.

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Speaker 1: Highlights well this week. Over on The Knife, Hanna and

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Speaker 1: Pasha talked to Ashley and Crystal, who are the daughters

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Speaker 1: of Donna Nelson, who was arrested in Tokyo in January

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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three on international drug smuggling charges. They

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Speaker 1: immediately suspected the man Donna had been dating online to

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Speaker 1: be responsible for this, and so they share their family's

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Speaker 1: heartbreaking story and their fight for justice and the warning

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Speaker 1: signs behind elder drug mule scams. Wow, I'd never even

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Speaker 1: heard of that.

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Speaker 2: That is something else, okay. And then over on That's

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Speaker 2: Messed Up, Kara and Lisa breakdown the SPU episode they'd

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Speaker 2: already disappeared with actor Blake DeLong. Then they dive into

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Speaker 2: the shocking real life case of Anatol Moskvin and his

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Speaker 2: twenty nine mummified human dolls.

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Speaker 1: Then on Ghosted, Ros reunites with comedian Oh Just truly

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Speaker 1: one of my very favorites these days. Vinnie Thomas. He's

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Speaker 1: the one. I'm sure I told you he has an

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Speaker 1: amazing TikTok and he does that bit where he goes

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Speaker 1: it's his impression of a pigeon at Pride Parade and

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Speaker 1: he's throw out some bad It's the funniest I love him.

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Speaker 1: So he's on Ghosted with Roz for a freaky, deeky

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Speaker 1: cosmic Kiki they call it, and they get into psychic Swindlers, Aliens,

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Speaker 1: a silicon based life, and Snookie's soon to debut paranormal

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Speaker 1: ghost hunting show.

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Speaker 2: Kind of love fits for her somehow, for like perfectly,

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Speaker 2: even though it makes no sense, it's not connected at all,

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Speaker 2: but it's like, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yes, please. I also think that Snookie's personality, I think

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Speaker 1: she was wronged in the time where they got popular, yes,

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Speaker 1: and it was so easy to dump on Snooky right,

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Speaker 1: And I think she deserves to do whatever the fuck

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Speaker 1: she wants because people want to watch and listen.

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Speaker 2: She's a star.

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Speaker 1: She is a star, okay, And then tomorrow we'll be

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Speaker 1: featured said about Snooky justice for Snooky. God damn it,

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Speaker 1: why are you o pressing Snookie?

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Speaker 2: And then tomorrow we'll be featuring episode one of Brief Recess,

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Speaker 2: our newest podcast here on the MFM channel. This episode

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Speaker 2: features Congressman Robert Garcia, the ranking member and top Democrat

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Speaker 2: on the House Oversight Committee. Then be sure to go

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Speaker 2: over to the Brief Recess feed and check out their

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Speaker 2: first four episodes. Please please please binge the newest podcast

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Speaker 2: on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcasts

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Speaker 2: and rate review subscribe.

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Speaker 1: Also Brief Recesses on YouTube. They're just as much a

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Speaker 1: video podcast as they are at audio one, so go

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Speaker 1: watch them at YouTube dot com slash at brief Recess.

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Speaker 1: Also attention holiday shoppers. The Exactly Right Store has been

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Speaker 1: fully stocked with gorgeous trinkets and treasures for you and

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Speaker 2: Sure? Ooh, I own this one already. We have the

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Speaker 2: and it's so beautiful, beautiful. I have the gold one

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Speaker 1: And also what a cute little bag it says my

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Speaker 2: Keep your nicotine pouches in it. It's worth it just

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Speaker 2: for that.

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Speaker 1: Let me see if I can pouch this up right now.

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Speaker 2: And then what else do we have?

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Speaker 1: We have a mothman plushy key chains hang your keys

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Speaker 2: This catnip one of these, Nicole, that's a great idea, okay.

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Speaker 2: And then our red flag beanie. You have that the cutest,

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Speaker 1: I love it.

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Speaker 2: And then our cozy MFM script zip up hoodie. So

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Speaker 2: it's just my favorite murder in script. It's pretty simple

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Speaker 2: and like straightforward. I love that. And then it says

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Speaker 2: Murderino on the sleeve.

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Speaker 1: I mean, do you want to come out as a Murderino?

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Speaker 2: That's pretty fucking cool if you're ready. It's like also

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Speaker 2: like really good material. Vince is always like really obsessed

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Speaker 1: I know. Nicole really does not slouch. She gets good one.

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Speaker 1: And there's more good news. We have extended this sale,

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Speaker 1: so now it's going to December seventh, so you can

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Speaker 2: Store dot com dot com support your local podcasts, that's right,

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Speaker 2: all right. So before we get started real quick, we

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Speaker 2: want to do our December donation announcement. You guys know,

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Speaker 2: every December, every week, every episode we like to donate

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Speaker 2: to a great cause. This month is no different.

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Speaker 1: No, that's right, And this is actually one of my

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Speaker 1: personal favorites. I used talked about this book, yeah, father

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Speaker 1: Greg's book. So we're going to kick off December donation

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Speaker 1: drive with ten thousand dollars being donated to Homeboy Industries.

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Speaker 1: And that's this nonprofit here in La dedicated to providing hope, training,

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Speaker 1: and support to formally gang involved in previously incarcerated people,

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Speaker 1: allowing them to redirect their lives and become contributing members

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Speaker 1: of our community.

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Speaker 2: They offer a wide variety of services, ranging from tattoo

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Speaker 2: removal to anger management and parenting classes. So if you'd

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Speaker 2: like to join us in giving to this very important cause,

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Speaker 2: go to their website at Homeboy Industries dot org.

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Speaker 1: They actually have a really great cafe and they are

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Speaker 1: making tiktoks where it's like a bunch of guys that

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Speaker 1: look like tough guys that go up and there they

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Speaker 1: order black coffee, but it's like the little we talked

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Speaker 1: about that, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're actually like getting their like SOI latte.

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Speaker 1: And then they're all like going over and sipping them

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Speaker 1: all cute. It's the funniest Yeah, so cute. Also, if

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Speaker 1: you're not in a place to give money right now,

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Speaker 1: they're looking for volunteers. So there's volunteer opportunities around tutoring.

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Speaker 1: They need experienced teachers and they would also like some

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Speaker 1: volunteers that are mental health professionals.

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Speaker 2: So I love that. So let's find ways to look

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Speaker 2: out for each other in the coming year.

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Speaker 1: Yay, yay the way Homeboy Industries does.

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Speaker 2: Thanks you guys for helping us donate. Yeah, all right,

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Speaker 2: I'm first I have been. I guess the word isn't

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Speaker 2: looking for to telling you this story, right because it's

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Speaker 2: mash it's a comedy about Vietnam.

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Speaker 1: There's yeah, there's real war in these right, so.

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Speaker 2: It's not looking forward to but the story is fascinating

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Speaker 2: and we're going to Australia for this one. So this

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Speaker 2: is a story of the mysterious death of a young

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Speaker 2: woman in Australia about fifteen years ago. It's a troubling

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Speaker 2: case that doesn't have a clear answer. It's not a

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Speaker 2: cold case necessarily, but the most troubling part is probably

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Speaker 2: how the initial investigation was handled. This is the story

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Speaker 2: of the mysterious death of Phoebe Handshick and I actually

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Speaker 2: heard about this from a twenty sixteen six part podcast

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Speaker 2: series called Phoebe's Fall, and it was an investigation by

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Speaker 2: Michael Bachelor and Richard Baker, who are both reporters for

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Speaker 2: the Melvin newspaper The Age. It's one of those classic

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Speaker 2: deep dive They interview the whole family and friends and

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Speaker 2: just really get into this case and ask great questions

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Speaker 2: that never were asked by their police. So it's a

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Speaker 2: really good podcast. Highly recommend it. And it all stuck

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Speaker 2: with me because the girl Phoebe reminds me of me

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Speaker 2: or us, or murderinos or people we would know. She

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Speaker 2: just seems very Oh, let's just get out of it, okay.

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Speaker 2: On Thursday December second, twenty ten, at about seven pm,

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Speaker 2: the concierge at a luxury high rise apartment complex in

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Speaker 2: Melbourne called the Valencia. Goes to the refuse room on

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Speaker 2: the ground floor where all the trash from the high

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Speaker 2: rises trash chute goes, so each floor has a trash chute.

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Speaker 2: Trash goes to this room. She is looking for a

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Speaker 2: room to sweep something up, but when she tries to

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Speaker 2: get into the refuse refuse, the door is stuck. When

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Speaker 2: she gets the door open, she sees blood and a

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Speaker 2: body and she panics. She first calls her boss, then

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Speaker 2: the police, and it's quickly determined that this is a

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Speaker 2: young building resident named Phoebe Handschick. Police very quickly come

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Speaker 2: up with an explanation that Phoebe had taken her own life.

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Speaker 2: And because of this, they make many mistakes over the

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Speaker 2: course that they're a very short investigation and it will

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Speaker 2: leave me any questions unanswered. The first thing they do

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Speaker 2: is they don't check for a pulse, they don't check

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Speaker 2: for signs of life. And it's homicide detectives, so like

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Speaker 2: you'd think that they know to establish that immediately, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: that's the first thing you do.

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Speaker 1: Is it assumed that if they're there, it's because it

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Speaker 1: already has been a stop.

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's supposed to be okay, because the

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Speaker 2: whole thing is like signs of life is like important,

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Speaker 2: and so they don't even check. I mean, yeah, so

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Speaker 2: that's what's going on. But let's talk about Phoebe. Phoebe

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Speaker 2: had been twenty four and she had lived with her boyfriend,

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Speaker 2: who's forty five. They live in that luxury apartment on

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Speaker 2: the twelfth floor of this building. The apartment belongs to

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Speaker 2: Phoebe's boyfriend, and they've been together for about a year

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Speaker 2: and a half, and Phoebe had moved in fairly shortly

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Speaker 2: after meeting him. We do know that the relationship was

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Speaker 2: somewhat rocky, and Phoebe had talked about ending it on

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Speaker 2: multiple occasions, and maybe even tried to end it and

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Speaker 2: just kept going back to him. This man is I'm

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Speaker 2: just gonna call him Anthony, that's his name. But he

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Speaker 2: had been cleared of any involvement in or knowledge of

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Speaker 2: her death by the coroner. So I'm not going to

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Speaker 2: say his last name, but you can find it anywhere.

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Speaker 2: The journalists from the Age take pains to say that

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Speaker 2: they are not arguing with that finding that he's not involved,

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Speaker 2: but because his name comes up a lot in connection

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Speaker 2: with this case, and at the same time, he's not

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Speaker 2: been charged with any crime. I'm not going to use

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Speaker 2: his last name, but in any case, his name's Anthony,

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Speaker 2: and he's kind of a mover and shaker in Melbourne

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Speaker 2: as he's a very successful producer of major events, so

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Speaker 2: he kind of is like in the know. He goes

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Speaker 2: to all the cool parties. He throws all the cool parties.

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Speaker 2: You know, he's got money, that kind of thing. His

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Speaker 2: parents are both judges. His father is a retired Victoria

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court judge and his mother is a district judge,

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Speaker 2: so you know, well off and like also well respected

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Speaker 2: in the community. His sister is sort of a socialite

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Speaker 2: and is known to be a minor cocaine dealer, although

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Speaker 2: she won't be convicted of this several more years. And

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Speaker 2: when that does happen, when she does get convicted of

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Speaker 2: it and found with as selling cocaine, she gets a

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Speaker 2: very light sentence because of her parents' connections.

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Speaker 1: I mean, so to have two parents as judges, yeah wow,

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Speaker 1: Like good luck going through yea the systems, Yeah you

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Speaker 1: are the system right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So meanwhile, Phoebe, Yeah, come on, she still got it. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: let's talk about Phoebe. She's born on May ninth, nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty six and grew up in a lovely part of

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Speaker 2: Melbourne with her parents and two brothers. Seems like she

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Speaker 2: had a really lovely childhood and she's known for being

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Speaker 2: creative and beautiful and like stops people in their tracks.

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Speaker 2: But she also seems like she's kind of she seems

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Speaker 2: like she'd be a murderer now she has. She seems

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Speaker 2: very artistic. She seems like the cool girl in high

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Speaker 2: school who like always took photos and was in like

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Speaker 2: art classes and photography classes, and you know, she had

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Speaker 2: a pierced lip and like short spiky hair.

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Speaker 1: She was just cool. She was a cool girl.

439
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd like someone you'd want to be friends with.

440
00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just really quick on that. I saw TikTok.

441
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,159
Speaker 1: That was all about having hobbies. Is not just like

442
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,160
Speaker 1: a pastime or a distraction. Like hobbies, especially in women,

443
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,800
Speaker 1: teaches you how to care about the things, like care

444
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,639
Speaker 1: about yourself and invest in yourself and then develop. So

445
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,560
Speaker 1: it's like you start it a hobby and you're like say,

446
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,760
Speaker 1: playing the guitar, and if you just keep doing it,

447
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,119
Speaker 1: eventually you'll get good and then you can actually do

448
00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,119
Speaker 1: something with it. And that idea where it's just like that.

449
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:26,639
Speaker 1: I love the idea of like girls in high school

450
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,440
Speaker 1: that are like, I want to be a photographer. I'm

451
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 1: into photography, and it's like, you don't have to do

452
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,200
Speaker 1: that forever, right, just like chase that kind of instinct and.

453
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,479
Speaker 2: Get into about those like temporary hobbies and just like

454
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:38,480
Speaker 2: what's new, what's next?

455
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,520
Speaker 1: Try it out, see how you feel.

456
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 2: And so she has a rebellious streak totally reminds me

457
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,879
Speaker 2: of Be in the nineties as a precocious teenager. She

458
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 2: starts going out to clubs with fake id's when she's thirteen,

459
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,200
Speaker 2: starts drinking and doing drugs. It's exactly what I did

460
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,440
Speaker 2: at sixteen. If Phoebe gets her first job at McDonald's,

461
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 2: and this is just kind of like a way to

462
00:20:58,080 --> 00:20:59,959
Speaker 2: show you how she was and what she was like.

463
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,520
Speaker 2: I love the story. She hates the job. She quits

464
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,959
Speaker 2: after her second day. But when you quit your job

465
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 2: at McDonald you have to return your uniform, and Phoebe

466
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,400
Speaker 2: had come to work wearing it, so she decides she's

467
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,800
Speaker 2: had enough. She quits. She goes into the back room,

468
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,399
Speaker 2: strips off the uniform and then runs home in her

469
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 2: underwear so she doesn't have to pay them for the uniform.

470
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 2: Like that, that's the kind of like like I want

471
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 2: that girl to be my friend. Yes, you know it's

472
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,400
Speaker 2: a cool girl for sure. Yeah, she seems like someone

473
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 2: you'd be like following on Instagram now, who's like an

474
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,800
Speaker 2: influencer who does really fun, cool stuff. And you know,

475
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 2: Phoebe's close with her family, but her parents get divorced

476
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,880
Speaker 2: when she's in her teens, and she is estranged from

477
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,320
Speaker 2: her father for a while, but they ultimately repair their relationship.

478
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,360
Speaker 2: And she's really close with her grandmother, a woman named Phyllis,

479
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 2: and Phoebe trusts her completely. She really tells her grandma anything,

480
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 2: including about her teenage exploits and experimentation with drugs, which

481
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 2: my grandma would have had a fucking heart attack I

482
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 2: had told her what I was doing. But this grandma's

483
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 2: cool and totally non judge mental. But she's also honest

484
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,240
Speaker 2: when she's worried about what Phoebe's telling her, Because the

485
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 2: grandma had done her fair amount of experimenting herself. Phyllis

486
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 2: is upfront with Phoebe about her own experiences with drugs,

487
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 2: including LSD, saying how she didn't tolerate psychedelics. Well, so

488
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,199
Speaker 2: be very careful. It's like not for everyone. And Phoebe

489
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 2: respects her grandmother but ultimately pays a normal amount of

490
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 2: teenage attention to this advice, which is.

491
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,119
Speaker 1: None, thanks so much, thanks for your input.

492
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 2: It's snare yea. And so she definitely struggled to some

493
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 2: extent with mental health and with drug and alcohol use,

494
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 2: as a lot of us do. It sort of blurrily

495
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,159
Speaker 2: fits into what is considered the expectations for young people.

496
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,680
Speaker 2: Her family isn't too phazed by her relationship with much

497
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 2: older men, which she's always had, including a relationship with

498
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,679
Speaker 2: a teacher when she was in high school. He was

499
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,199
Speaker 2: thirty and she was sixteen. But it seems like the

500
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 2: mother and the grandmother I both had always had relationships

501
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 2: with older men and didn't see it as problematic and

502
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 2: he like lived with them for a while. And it's

503
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 2: so hard to say nowadays, like you can't date your students.

504
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 2: There's a fucking children. Yes you're not supposed to. Yes,

505
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 2: no that's wrong, but they don't see it as problematic.

506
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 2: And yeah, so all it says to say, there's a

507
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 2: lot going on in Phoebe's life, much of it typical

508
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 2: for someone who's twenty four, but people can't seem to

509
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 2: agree if Phoebe's alcohol and drug use and relationships have

510
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 2: crossed over into a territory that's more worrying. In the

511
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 2: week leading up to her death, Phoebe was in close

512
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 2: contact with her psychologist and did seem to be in

513
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,679
Speaker 2: some amount of distress about her relationship with her boyfriend

514
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 2: and as well as her drinking, which she thought was

515
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 2: getting out of control. And there might have been some

516
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 2: drug use as well, because you know, he was in

517
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 2: the night life scene. Yeah, and his sister, as we

518
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 2: now know, was selling cocaine. Which all is to say,

519
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 2: if you already have mental health issues, adding those things

520
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 2: are very detrimental.

521
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,680
Speaker 1: And proximity with stuff like that, it's like, if you

522
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: can get away from it, that's why people are like,

523
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 1: then I moved to the country or whatever, exactly, because

524
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 1: if you're right in it and that's where all your

525
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 1: friends are and that's what they're doing, and.

526
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 2: You're trying to keep up with this older crowd. And

527
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 2: she wasn't the type of person who was like she

528
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 2: shouldn't have a ton of money. But this crowd that

529
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 2: he ran in, you know, they threw parties for like

530
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 2: famous people, and they had all this money and you know,

531
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,119
Speaker 2: designer things, and so she was kind of twenty four

532
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 2: in trying to keep up.

533
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a world we've all been told we're supposed

534
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: to want to be.

535
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 2: In, right, Yeah, So, her therapist says that during that week,

536
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 2: Phoebe was talking about taking her own life, but it

537
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 2: hadn't risen to the level that she thought she should

538
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 2: send a crisis assessment team to the apartment, like she

539
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,159
Speaker 2: had mentioned it before, but not with any concrete plans,

540
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 2: which I think is the thing that they always look for.

541
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,960
Speaker 2: But she later says that she regrets not sending someone

542
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 2: to help her. All that said, while people close to

543
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 2: Phoebe agree that she was experiencing mental health struggles, perhaps

544
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 2: even more severe ones, no one can understand how she

545
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 2: could have possibly taken her own life. And this is

546
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 2: how she died by stepping feet first into the garbage

547
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 2: chute of the twelfth floor. So problematic, and that's why

548
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 2: she was found down in the trash room, right, I

549
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 2: get it. Yeah, so many things are weird, there's no

550
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 2: fingerprints or handprints left behind in the garbage shoot. You

551
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 2: can imagine like remember when I had at my old apartment. Yeah,

552
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 2: it's tiny, it's like you open, it's the size of

553
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 2: a laptop. So if someone were to put her in,

554
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 2: or she were to go in herself, there would be

555
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 2: hand prints, clear handprints, yep. But there weren't any. And

556
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 2: it's unclear totally if it was like they just weren't

557
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 2: any usable prints or no prints at all, like fully

558
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 2: wiped down exactly, both of which are you know, don't

559
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 2: make a lot of sense. The other thing, too, is

560
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,359
Speaker 2: that her family and friends say that, you know, she

561
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 2: did struggle with mental health. She did have a hard

562
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 2: time taking her medications all the time, so her being

563
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 2: suicidal wasn't totally out of the realm of possibility. But

564
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 2: they point out that she had a balcony and or

565
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 2: they point out that she was just this free spirit

566
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 2: who loved nature. She would have taken her own life

567
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 2: in a different way. You know, she was an artistic,

568
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 2: creative person. You don't put yourself in a fucking trash

569
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 2: shoot like that's not you don't do that.

570
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: It sounds yeah, it sounds unrealistic. But it's also just

571
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: like it feels like if you're in a moment like that,

572
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,440
Speaker 1: you're not also trying to torture yourself.

573
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 2: Right way, it's very very suspicious. Like you'd think that

574
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 2: the police first thing they would do when they got

575
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 2: there would be to assume immediately that that is suicide.

576
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 2: Is so far fetched, Yeah right, Yeah, like to conclude

577
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 2: it eventually maybe, but to assume it immediately and treat

578
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 2: the investigation at that way is super suspicious.

579
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 1: Yeah.

580
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 2: So on Tuesday, November thirtieth, two days before her death,

581
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 2: Phoebe goes out partying and gets so drunk that she

582
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 2: spends pretty much the entire day Wednesday, December first, in

583
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 2: bed with a hangover. Phoebe's family says this happens sometimes,

584
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 2: And on the morning of December first, at about ten

585
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 2: thirty am, Phoebe sends out a group text to her mom,

586
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 2: brother's grandma, her boss, and her boyfriend, the one she

587
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 2: lives with. And it's concerning and so I'm gonna read

588
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 2: it to you. It's very odd. It says, quote, Hi, family,

589
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 2: I am in bed and about to sleep, and when

590
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 2: I wake, I will turn into the most incredible human

591
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 2: being you've ever seen not. I will go to the hospital.

592
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 2: It's safer there, and I hear the special tonight is

593
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 2: tomato soup. This is known as a tomato soup litter, delicious, nutritious.

594
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 2: I love you all very much, but not enough to

595
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 2: send an individual text. Sorry about that, but time is

596
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 2: sleep and I must be on my way merrily, merrily, merrily.

597
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: Life is but a dream exo. So that is the

598
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 2: text she sends to everyone. Try to wrap my head

599
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 2: around it, having been hungover really bad myself and the

600
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 2: like shamis that you get and the guilt and you're awful,

601
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: and I need to fix this and I want to

602
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 2: tell my friends and family that, like I swear, I'm

603
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:09,640
Speaker 2: going to fix this and I'm going to get better.

604
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 2: But it doesn't make sense. It's just a weird text.

605
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

606
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 2: When she receives this text, Phoebe's mom is about to

607
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 2: get on a plane home from Western Australia and she's

608
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 2: so concerned that she asked her mom, Phoebe's grandma, to

609
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 2: contact Phoebe's boyfriend, so he picks up the call. He

610
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 2: says he's at work, but he'll check on Phoebe after

611
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 2: work and This story gets even more muddy and strange because,

612
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 2: by some accounts, and it's so convoluted, Phoebe's boyfriend had

613
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: her cell phone at the time that message was sent.

614
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 2: He said he had taken it to work that day

615
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 2: because it was broken, so it's going to drop it

616
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 2: off at the store. But why would that text then

617
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 2: come from it? It seems like someone else wrote the text, right,

618
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 2: And it's also like perfect punctuation, perfect you know, casing.

619
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: Like if she was drunk or high or it was

620
00:28:59,040 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: something like that.

621
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

622
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: But also it's like he receives the text, he's on

623
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: that thread, right, But then he also has the phone, right,

624
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: he says yeah.

625
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 2: And there's a huge amount of confusion about the timeline

626
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 2: and whereabouts of this iPhone. It sounds like Phoebe maybe

627
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 2: had two phones and still had the second one on Wednesday,

628
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 2: but it's just hard to tell. That evening, Phoebe does

629
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 2: talk on the phone with her father for about ten minutes,

630
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: but the call happens on her boyfriend's phone, not hers,

631
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 2: and they make a plan to have dinner together the

632
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 2: next night. So the next day, Thursday, the day Phoebe dies,

633
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 2: Phoebe's boyfriend leaves her work, and by some of his

634
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 2: later accounts, Phoebe had her iPhone up until this point,

635
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: and this is the day he takes it to be fixed.

636
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 2: He kind of changed his story a couple times, which

637
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 2: is suspish because it's all making sense to any questions.

638
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: No, no, I'm right with you. It's just weird knowing

639
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: that you already kind of gave the caveat that he's

640
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: not involved and has been cleared, where it's like, but

641
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: all these things.

642
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, we don't believe we've I think that the

643
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 2: reason he's cleared is because it was not properly investigated,

644
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 2: not because he actually had nothing to do with it. Okay,

645
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 2: So regardless, he leaves in the morning while Phoebe's still sleeping.

646
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 2: Later that morning, there's a fire alarm in the building,

647
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 2: and Phoebe's seen on the CCTV footage with her dog

648
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: filing out of the apartment. Some people point out that

649
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 2: she seems to stumble in the footage at one point,

650
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 2: saying like maybe she had been drinking, but she seems

651
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 2: surefooted walking back into the building, so it's hard to say.

652
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 2: Around noon, Phoebe's boyfriend's house cleaner comes to the apartment,

653
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 2: and she's the last person we know of to see

654
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 2: Phoebe alive and speak to her. She says Phoebe seems

655
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 2: sick and hungover, but not depressed otherwise normal. So at

656
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 2: six pm, Phoebe's boyfriend returns to the apartment. He says

657
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 2: it was empty when he got there, but he saw

658
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: a broken glass on the floor, as well as a

659
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: small amount of blood in some places, including on the

660
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 2: computer keyboard. He says, Phoebe's purse with her wallet in

661
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 2: it is on the counter, which is where she always

662
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: takes her purse with her, so he doesn't know where

663
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,719
Speaker 2: she is. He has a cigarette, has a beer, and

664
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 2: then orders thy Food, which is a weird thing because

665
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 2: he and Phoebe were supposed to meet with her dad

666
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 2: that night for thy food at the same restaurant, but

667
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 2: he doesn't know where she is. They have plans, and

668
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 2: then he orders typhood. They have plans for dinner, right

669
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: doesn't add up. When the typhood comes just after seven pm,

670
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 2: the delivery guy mentions that there are police and the

671
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 2: building's foyer. Something's going on, and that's when Anthony, the boyfriend,

672
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 2: goes downstairs to discover that Phoebe's body had been.

673
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: Found, right, Yeah, I'm just thinking, like, you have these

674
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: plans and then your girlfriend is like you can't get

675
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: a hold of her. The idea that you're just going

676
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: to have some dinner, right feels odd?

677
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 2: Yes? Yeah, Like I wonder what Vince would think if

678
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: he came home and I wasn't there and my purse

679
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 2: was there, Like he'd be he'd know something was wrong.

680
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: Just be working on that probably.

681
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, he ordered dinner. I better eat right. So this

682
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 2: is all pretty awful. Trigger warning. Phoebe had fallen twelve

683
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 2: stories through that shoot, more than one hundred feet feet first,

684
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 2: so the blade of the compactor machine at the bottom

685
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 2: of the chute had badly injured her ankle on the

686
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 2: way down. Once it gets to the bottom, there's a

687
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: blade for the trash, nearly severing her foot. Sorry, but

688
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 2: it's clear from the blood on the floor of the

689
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 2: refuse room that Phoebe had survived. That she had climbed

690
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: out of the bin and crawled across the room trying

691
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: to get out before ultimately dying of blood loss is

692
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 2: what she died wrong.

693
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: Oh that's horrible, I know, I mean, that's worst case scenarios.

694
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: It's really awful. She's found with her jeans down around

695
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 2: her ankles, which is a weird mystery too. Did they

696
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: come down when she fell or a lot of people

697
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: are like a way to get her legs together to

698
00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 2: fit her in the chute if someone else had put

699
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 2: her there would be to pull grip cheans down around

700
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 2: her ankle, you know what I mean. So that's really suspicious.

701
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 2: There's no signs of sexual assault, but she does have

702
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: some bruises on various parts of her body, like her wrist,

703
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 2: in her arm, places where someone would have had to

704
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: grab her to have those those bruises. But that's inconclusive.

705
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 2: And then so Phoebe's blood alcohol content is zero point sixteen,

706
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 2: which is twice the legal driving limit in the US

707
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 2: and triple the legal limit in Australia. So this part

708
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 2: is like what people point to when they're like, she

709
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 2: did it herself. And she's found to have what is

710
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 2: essentially ambient in her system, which is amount consistent with

711
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 2: a normal dose, but she'd also had a lot of alcohol.

712
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,719
Speaker 2: The coroner writes in his report that he believes Phoebe

713
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 2: climbed into the chute in a sleepwalking state induced by

714
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,479
Speaker 2: the alcohol and sleeping pills. But Phoebe's family points out

715
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 2: that they had seen her drunk on numerous occasions because

716
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 2: she didn't have a particularly high tolerance, and they did

717
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 2: say she was very quick to lose her sea legs.

718
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:03,719
Speaker 2: But they are extremely skeptical that she could have climbed

719
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 2: into the shoot with that amount of alcohol in her system.

720
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 2: So it's almost like they're saying that the alcohol and

721
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 2: ambien made her do it. Everyone else who doesn't think

722
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 2: so are saying, how could she have done that if

723
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 2: she were on that much alcohol and ambien? Yeah, and

724
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 2: why you have to ask why she would do that?

725
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 2: I just don't.

726
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense, especially knowing that she lived through it,

727
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: where it's like, why would you do a thing that

728
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: wouldn't if you're going to go through something like that

729
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: and make a decision.

730
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 2: Right, And it's the version if she put herself in there,

731
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 2: I don't think she would have known she was going

732
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 2: to die, So she actually was wanting to take her

733
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 2: own life. There's so many other ways to do it.

734
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,240
Speaker 1: But if she was like totally impaired, right alcohol and ambient,

735
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 1: maybe it wasn't a decision making process. That was like

736
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,239
Speaker 1: normal or linear, And if she.

737
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 2: Was totally impaired on alcohol and ambient how could she

738
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 2: have climbed up into the chute fit her entire body,

739
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 2: you know, like yeah, and without leaving prints behind. Yeah, right,

740
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 2: it's just weird. Yeah, it's weird completely either way. So

741
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 2: the shoot is about three feet off the ground, and

742
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 2: it's one of those ones that doesn't stay open unless

743
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 2: you hold it open, and there's really nothing to hold

744
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 2: on to if you were going to climb in. It's

745
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 2: just in a wall, and it would be easy enough

746
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: to get one leg in, but you'd have to be

747
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 2: very small and very strong and very agile to get in.

748
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 2: And that said, Phoebe is actually incredibly fit. She is

749
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 2: learning karate and kickboxing. She spends hours at the gym.

750
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 2: She's also a great climber, and so it might be

751
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 2: physically possible for her to climb into the garbage chute.

752
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 2: But at the same time, the fact that there's no

753
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 2: usable fingerprints or handprints Phoebe's or anyone else's is very suspicious.

754
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 2: So this is the botched investigation. There are many many

755
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 2: missed opportunities. At the beginning of this investigation, where the

756
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 2: Melboyn homicide squad does not gather crucial evidence for starters.

757
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 2: As I said, no one checks her body for signs

758
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 2: of life. She clearly was alive for some amount of

759
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 2: time after her fall because of the crawling, so there

760
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 2: might have been a chance that she was hanging on

761
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: still when help first came. So the investigating officers are

762
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 2: part of Melbourne's homicide squad, as I said, So it's

763
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,760
Speaker 2: not like the idea of this case involving foul play

764
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 2: would have immediately been dismissed out of hand, like that

765
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 2: is not the first thing I would think if I

766
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 2: saw the scene. Is she took her own mind?

767
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 1: Not at all, right, No, I mean I wouldn't.

768
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 2: When they investigate Phoebe and her boyfriend's apartment, they do

769
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,760
Speaker 2: find the small bloodstains on the wood floor shattered dishes nearby,

770
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 2: but they don't take the shattered dishes to see where

771
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 2: it came from. There's two glasses that have been used

772
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,399
Speaker 2: like cups on a bench, like to me, that says

773
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,760
Speaker 2: two people had been there. They also don't take samples

774
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: of her blood, and they don't take her cell phone

775
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 2: that she has and her computer as evidence to just

776
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: see what's in there. There could be a you know,

777
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 2: a suicide note. Maybe they don't even check that, and

778
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 2: they don't take the laptop for that reason. There's also

779
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 2: blood on the laptop and they still don't take it, right.

780
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 1: It's crazy.

781
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, police also don't take the building's CCTV footage on

782
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 2: the day of Phoebe's death, they look at it. The

783
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 2: building manager, who is in this podcast says that like

784
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 2: he offered it to them. He told them that it's

785
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,720
Speaker 2: on a two day loop and so it erases itself

786
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 2: every two days. He lets them know that he offers

787
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 2: it to them, and they don't take it, and they

788
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 2: don't even look to see like just like.

789
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: Who's in the building, Yeah, at entrances and exit like.

790
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 2: Even just to like rule it out that no one

791
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 2: was there.

792
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very strange.

793
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,240
Speaker 2: Right. It's only after more than two days have elapsed

794
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 2: that the police contact the company that services the building

795
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 2: CCTV footage to try to recover it, and unsurprisingly, most

796
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 2: of it's gone. And this includes all the footage of

797
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 2: the garage under the building, which would have shown who

798
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 2: came and went around the time of Phoebe's death.

799
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:49,879
Speaker 1: It just that doesn't track at all.

800
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 2: No, it's just basic police work, no matter what kind

801
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: of crime you're you're looking at. There also appears to

802
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,879
Speaker 2: be no footage from Phoebe's hallway or the room where

803
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 2: the garbage shoot was. The police also don't lock down

804
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 2: any particular crime scene, so there's actually three crime scenes

805
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 2: if you really look at it. Here there's the apartment,

806
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 2: there's the room where the shoot is, and then there's

807
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: the refuse room. Those are three crime scenes that should

808
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 2: have been cordoned off, not one of them are. And

809
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 2: Phoebe's boyfriend and his family judges are in the apartment

810
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 2: the whole time this is going on. Allowed back in

811
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 2: the apartment. Oh no, allegedly allegedly. Allegedly. They don't take

812
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 2: any of Phoebe's electronics for months, and by this time

813
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:32,879
Speaker 2: the SIM card from her iPhone is gone, and her

814
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,760
Speaker 2: boyfriend admits to getting rid of it, thinking it wouldn't

815
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 2: be useful for anything. I have never gotten rid of

816
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 2: a SIM card. I don't even know how to do it.

817
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: You know who does, like weird spies and stuff, exactly

818
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 1: like anyone that's like, oh, pop this out and throw

819
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 1: it into the river lake.

820
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,399
Speaker 2: That's the Karen Reid case. Remember the one cop who

821
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 2: like fuck threw away a SIM card that's so sketchy.

822
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 2: Jesus very yeah, very very rid of SIM cards. I

823
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 2: have my phones from like two thousand and six stuff.

824
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 2: If you can find out what's on there, I've tried.

825
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 2: It's really boring. Oh it's like just photos of it's

826
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 2: so dumb, it's so.

827
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: Don't look back, don't look back. But also I didn't

828
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: really put that. I mean sitting with this, and then

829
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: it's like you suddenly can see like and allegedly, allegedly

830
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 1: I'm making this up, but it's just like trying to

831
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: assemble some sort of idea of what was going on

832
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 1: that night where it's like two judges are in the

833
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:27,240
Speaker 1: apartment basically dictating what is and is not going to happen.

834
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,919
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe not, who knows, but that idea as one

835
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: theory suddenly is like, oh, right, don't look at that,

836
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: shut that down, don't go over there, like this is you.

837
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,959
Speaker 2: Also think that they would want that to happen. Yeah,

838
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 2: they didn't think that he had anything to do with it.

839
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 2: They would be like, what are you doing? This isn't protocol?

840
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: Right, yes, and let everybody in here and have everybody.

841
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 2: Talking people who think it's suicide and who think she

842
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,479
Speaker 2: took her own life is him and his family? Yeah,

843
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: like that fucking it's not great. That's not great. They

844
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: immediately are telling, like their friends and people they now

845
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 2: that it's suicide, like putting on facebo to figure out

846
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: what happened. And they are the only ones who think

847
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 2: that it's not suspicious. That's to me is like the

848
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 2: biggest red flag.

849
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: It's not great.

850
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 2: No, Also, her sunglasses were found with her. Why would

851
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 2: you have her sunglasses on? I mean, you know what

852
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 2: else they didn't do is check the trash bins where

853
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 2: she was found. They didn't check.

854
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 1: Inside something that was in the room where.

855
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 2: Her body was. Right, so like, maybe, okay, maybe she

856
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 2: went to take trash out legitimately ran into some awful

857
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 2: monster and that happened. But then also like, why was

858
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,280
Speaker 2: their glass broken in the apartment, Why was their blood?

859
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,840
Speaker 2: Why did she have her sunglasses with her? It's just baffling.

860
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 2: At least also didn't take samples. I guess there were

861
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 2: mysterious large shoeprints leading away from the apartment, and they

862
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 2: didn't check that out at all. And then the other

863
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 2: phone she had had been lost, so it's just her laptop.

864
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: And it's months months later that they finally take it.

865
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: So Phoebe's grandfather, len is a retired police detective, so

866
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 2: he's like, fuck this shit. Yeah, And while he's devastated

867
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 2: to loose his granddaughter, people who have spoken to him

868
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 2: tend to agree that he's approached the question around her

869
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 2: death logically and rationally. He gets in contact with the

870
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 2: company that makes the garbage shoot, and the company allows

871
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 2: him basically they make him a reproduction of the shoot.

872
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: He's like, there's no way she would have put herself

873
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 2: in there, gets a reproduction of the shoot, and then

874
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 2: asks her friend a couple of her friends for the

875
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 2: same size to reenact like how she would have gotten

876
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 2: into the shoot, and films the whole thing, and with

877
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 2: tremendous effort and there's video of it, they're able to

878
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 2: get themselves into the shute, but not without bracing themselves

879
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 2: on the shute and the wall around it, which would

880
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,880
Speaker 2: have left like I think clear finger and pom prints,

881
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 2: And they can't fit into the shoote without lifting their

882
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 2: arms above their heads. Like it's just it's very hard

883
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 2: to do. It's not impossible, but it's very hard to

884
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 2: do and this is not something the cops would have

885
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 2: tried to reenact, you know, yes.

886
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 1: And it's just such a horribly unpleasant thing to do.

887
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 2: I guess like maybe I'm just identifying with her way

888
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 2: too much, but like, I would never do that. I would.

889
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 2: That's it's gross, it's gross, it's awful, it's scary. Her

890
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 2: friend said she was claustrophobic too, so like doing that,

891
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense, It doesn't make sense.

892
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 1: But that, on top of no print, right, is something is.

893
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 2: Wrong to have. There's so many things. Yeah. So meanwhile,

894
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 2: in Victoria, Australia, at this point, they still use the

895
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,319
Speaker 2: antiquated coroner system, which you used to see in the

896
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 2: UK and United States as well. And so when we

897
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 2: talk about old murder cases, you hear us talking about

898
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: the coroner convening a jury to determine whether or not

899
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: a murder has taken place. It's like the coroner's inquest,

900
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 2: and then criminal charges stem from there. So the coroner

901
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 2: initially rules it an open finding. That's what he rules

902
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 2: the death as, meaning there's not enough information to determine

903
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: Phoebe's manner of death. So it's an open case. It

904
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: takes years of pressure from Phoebe's family to open an

905
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 2: official and full inquest into this, like you have to

906
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 2: petition the government. I've listened to other podcasts and better

907
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 2: the stories where it's just so hard for the family

908
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 2: to do it. In fact, they have to pay for

909
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 2: it themselves, the family of the victim that they're trying

910
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 2: to get an inquest for. Part of the reason it's

911
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 2: so hard is that Phoebe's boyfriend's parents are such prominent judges,

912
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 2: which means that they know every lawyer in town, so

913
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 2: no lawyer can actually take the case right because it's

914
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 2: a conflict of interest. They finally get a lawyer, and

915
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 2: the inquest finally happens in twenty fourteen, four years after

916
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 2: Phoebe's death, and not until her mother, Natalie, is able

917
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 2: to raise fifty thousand dollars from donations and her own

918
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 2: savings to cover the family's legal cost to have them

919
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 2: properly look into her daughter's death. Wow. Right. The other

920
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:58,959
Speaker 2: reason it takes as long is that Phoebe's boyfriend tries

921
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 2: to petition again since there being an inquest at all,

922
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: but ultimately goes through and it's determined at the inquest

923
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 2: that it is very difficult to make any kind of

924
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 2: ruling because of the amount of evidence that was lost

925
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 2: or not gathered, how convenient at the time of her death. Ultimately,

926
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 2: the coroner rules that Phoebe died quote by misadventure, meaning

927
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 2: an accident. This is against the advice of his counsel,

928
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 2: the lawyer who is tasked with working with the coroner

929
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 2: to parse through the evidence. Oh Wow, she had written

930
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 2: that she believed the case should be left open. The

931
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 2: coroner writes that he believes Phoebe had gotten into the

932
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,240
Speaker 2: shoot herself in an altered state brought on by alcohol

933
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 2: and ambien, despite several medical experts testifying well alcohol ambien

934
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 2: can make people deliriously do things they believe, it's highly

935
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 2: unlikely Phoebe would have been able to climb into the

936
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 2: chute on her own. So like everyone's telling you not

937
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 2: to rule it that way, and you just do it anyways.

938
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 2: Inside John In two thousand and eight, so four years

939
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 2: before Phoebe's death, a new law had made it harder

940
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 2: for people to appeal the coroner's find based on their

941
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 2: own interpretations of police evidence, and so this was part

942
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 2: of an effort to modernize the coroner system. So if

943
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 2: the coroner had left the case open, Phoebe's family wouldn't

944
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 2: have had to appeal because he ruled death by misadventure.

945
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 2: They would need to appeal in order to change that.

946
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 2: So under the two thousand and eight law, if the

947
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 2: appeal didn't go in their favor, they would be responsible

948
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 2: for all of the legal fees incurred by that appeal,

949
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:32,760
Speaker 2: so pay for justice. This is speculation and allegedly Phoebe's

950
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 2: boyfriend has another girlfriend die by suicide in twenty eighteen,

951
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 2: which people do or don't think is suspicious depending on

952
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 2: the case, whether or not you know, and it's possibly

953
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 2: had nothing to do with either woman's death, but this

954
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 2: is always brought up when people talk about the case.

955
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 2: The widespread attention to Phoebe's case has led to calls

956
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 2: for change to the coronial court system, which makes it

957
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 2: extremely difficult for families to appeal the coroner's decision, and

958
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,040
Speaker 2: so in twenty eighteen, partly because of this case, the

959
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 2: Victoria Attorney General announces that there will be some reform

960
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 2: to the two thousand and eight Coroners Act, and it's

961
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 2: tied directly to the issues raised in the podcast that

962
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 2: was used as my main source that I listened to,

963
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 2: called Phoebe's Fall, So they actually were able to enact

964
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 2: changes just with this podcast, which I think is so incredible.

965
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 2: Families are now able to challenge corners decisions based on

966
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 2: more factors than they had been originally able to do so,

967
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 2: and they are less financial risk to do so. So

968
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 2: we're recording the show right at the fifteenth anniversary of

969
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 2: Phoebe's death, and she'd be thirty nine if she were

970
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 2: alive today. And it's still one of those stories that

971
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 2: people are just always talking about because it just doesn't

972
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 2: make sense and.

973
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:43,240
Speaker 1: There's so much to discuss. I mean, like there's layers

974
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: and levels of like even if there was no boyfriend,

975
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,439
Speaker 1: right right, but then it's like but then you lay

976
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 1: that on there, Yeah, all that additional information where it's

977
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: like it kind of reminds me of the staircase in

978
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: that way.

979
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 2: Oh, it totally reminds me that they discovered.

980
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: The other wife. And then of course at that point,

981
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: yeah me the way I you know ingest things where

982
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: it's just like, well, there we go. It doesn't happen twice, No,

983
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 1: it doesn't happen twice. But but it does, it does,

984
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 1: it can and it does. But it makes something that

985
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: is already suspicious seem like, well, come on, yeah, it's

986
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: at least worth a second serious looking into totally.

987
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 2: You think they'd want to do that to show that

988
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 2: they weren't being you know, vice, Yeah, but nope. And

989
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 2: it's just really sad. I just I think about her

990
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 2: and how she was twenty four and struggling and then

991
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 2: so were we, and we got the chance to straighten

992
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 2: things out and she didn't, and it's just so tragic

993
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 2: and I just don't. I just don't. It just doesn't

994
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 2: make any sense. She deserved better than that, yeah, than

995
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 2: what she got. Yeah, And that's the story of the

996
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 2: mysterious death of Phoebe Handschick.

997
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 1: Wow. That's that's a lot. That's a heavy, Yeah, that

998
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,440
Speaker 1: needs to get solved. There's Phoebe's fault. Definitely listen to it.

999
00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 1: It's from twenty sixteen and they've done other stories since then.

1000
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 1: It's just a really great investigative podcast and interview. That's

1001
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 1: a lot of people, a lot more details than I

1002
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: was able to put out there, and it's making change,

1003
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 1: Like it's actually affecting people who are wanting to look

1004
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 1: at it. Wow, unbelievable.

1005
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 2: So can you change direction now please?

1006
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 1: I would love to, And I'm going to great although

1007
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 1: it's not you know, it's still over in the dark

1008
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: place where we like to spend our time. Because today

1009
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,919
Speaker 1: my story is about a legendary maritime disaster. It's about

1010
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,320
Speaker 1: a massive ship that gets caught in a horrible storm

1011
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: and then vanishes into thin air. Oh but it's not

1012
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: on the open ocean. It takes place on one of

1013
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 1: the vast, volatile Great Lakes. Fifty years ago. Many loved

1014
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: ones of those who are lost in this maritime disaster

1015
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 1: are still alive and still grieving. It inspired a legendary

1016
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: Gordon Lightfoot song. This is the story of the sinking

1017
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 1: of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald.

1018
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,440
Speaker 2: Holy shit, Vince has been watching because he's from Mission again, right,

1019
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,720
Speaker 2: so like he knows all about it. Yeah, I've been watching,

1020
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 2: like the documentaries and TV shows.

1021
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:05,799
Speaker 1: It's crazy.

1022
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 2: I don't know anying about it though.

1023
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:09,959
Speaker 1: I didn't really either, and I didn't think I knew

1024
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: the song. And then I listened to the song. I

1025
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: was like, oh, this has just been kind of playing

1026
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: in the background because like I grew up in the

1027
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: what do they call the am gold era of the seventies,

1028
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: where you just turned on the radio and there was

1029
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 1: like amazing music music, and Gordon Lightfoot was one of

1030
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: those voices, a famous Canadian kind of traditional singer. But

1031
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 1: then he had like some amazing hits and he just

1032
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 1: very recently died.

1033
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 2: Okay.

1034
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: So the main source used in the story today is

1035
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: Christopher Rowley's excellent nineteen ninety six Discovery Channel documentary called

1036
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,839
Speaker 1: Shipwreck The Mystery of the Edmund Fitzgerald, and the rest

1037
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: of the sources are in our show notes. So it

1038
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: all begins on a beautiful sunny autumn morning on November ninth,

1039
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, in Superior, Wisconsin, on the shores of

1040
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 1: Lake Superior. This part of the lake is lined with

1041
00:49:57,239 --> 00:49:59,399
Speaker 1: enormous docs. I don't know if you've ever seen those

1042
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,359
Speaker 1: really gigant antic docks on the Great Lakes. They look

1043
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: like several sets of train tracks that extend half a

1044
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:09,240
Speaker 1: mile out over the lake and eighty feet above the water.

1045
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 1: And then basically big freighters come up and they wait

1046
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: to be loaded with their cargo there. And in the

1047
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: mid seventies that cargo would typically be pellets of processed

1048
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 1: iron ore, which is an important industrial mineral that gets

1049
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: converted into steel. So the ore arrives by rail from

1050
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 1: mines in places like Minnesota, and then once it's loaded

1051
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: onto the ships several tons at a time, it gets

1052
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: hauled through the Great Lakes and out to steel mills

1053
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 1: in Rust belt cities like Cleveland and Detroit. And this

1054
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 1: is why the SS Edmund Fitzgerald is doc today is

1055
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 1: named for the president of the insurance company that owns

1056
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: the ship, Edmund Fitzchair.

1057
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 2: Okay, you need a legacy, gotta have a legacy, Gotta

1058
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 2: do it.

1059
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 1: But you're risking, but this could be your legacy. So

1060
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 1: the ship has a twenty nine person crew that's currently

1061
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,760
Speaker 1: tasked with freighting iron or eastward towards Sue Saint Marie, Michigan,

1062
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 1: and then down to the lower Great Lakes and then

1063
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 1: ultimately landing in Detroit. So it's a massive freighter. It's

1064
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 1: seven hundred and twenty nine feet long. It's the length

1065
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 1: of two football fields. As a ship, it towers nearly

1066
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: forty feet off the water. The height is a basically

1067
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: about a four story building. Oh my god, it weighs

1068
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 1: more than thirteen thousand tons when it's empty, and it

1069
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 1: can carry around twenty six thousand tons of cargo, and

1070
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 1: it is lovingly nicknamed Big Fits. So the Fitzgerald is

1071
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 1: so gigantic that when it was first unveiled in the

1072
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 1: late fifties, around ten thousand people showed up to the

1073
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: christening ceremony just to see what it looked like. But

1074
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: that ceremony devolved into chaos when the Fitzgerald gets launched

1075
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 1: and it basically slides sideways into the harbor and creates

1076
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:55,800
Speaker 1: this huge wave that breaks onto nearby docks and drenches

1077
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: the thousands of spectators, and then as it kind of

1078
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,919
Speaker 1: bobbles to right itself, it crashes into a nearby pier.

1079
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 1: And in that documentary for the Discovery Channel, they say,

1080
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 1: quote one man is so shaken by this site that

1081
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 1: he suffers a heart attack and dies. And another swears

1082
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 1: that the Edmund Fitzgerald is trying to climb right out

1083
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:16,760
Speaker 1: of the water.

1084
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:17,800
Speaker 2: Craepy.

1085
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: So just to be there and see all of that happening,

1086
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: the idea that a guy had a heart attack, I'm like, wait,

1087
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 1: is that my weird like fear of gigantic ships, am

1088
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 1: I the reincarnated soul of that man must be. It's

1089
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 1: all about us at the end of the day. So

1090
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 1: this takes place twenty five years after that, and since

1091
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 1: that time, the Big Fits has proven itself to be

1092
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 1: a reliable workhorse of a freighter. Its next trip is

1093
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: old hat. It's a two day run. They've done it

1094
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: a lot of times over the seventeen years on the

1095
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: Great Lakes. The captain of the Edmund Fitzgerald is sixty

1096
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:53,320
Speaker 1: three year old Ernest M McSorley, who, over his forty

1097
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 1: four year career, has climbed the ranks. He starts as

1098
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 1: a deckhand and gets all the way up to the captain.

1099
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 2: I mean, with a name like Sorely, what else are

1100
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 2: you going to do with your life?

1101
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 1: Come on, and you better drink whiskey, and you better

1102
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 1: tell a good story, and you better belly up to

1103
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 1: that bar. So there are very few people who know

1104
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 1: gigantic ships like the Edmund Fitzgerald or the Quirks of

1105
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 1: the Great Lakes better than Captain McSorley. And of course,

1106
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 1: like any great tragic story, he's about to retire. His

1107
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 1: wife Nelly's recovering from a stroke and so he has

1108
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 1: promised her that after this shipping season is over, he

1109
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: will finally come home for good. Come on, this hall

1110
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 1: will be the last one for Captain McSorley, son of

1111
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 1: a fucking bit. But he thinks it's the last one

1112
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: for a different reason then it will. It takes dozens

1113
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: of deckhands about six hours to load all the iron

1114
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 1: ore pellets into the Fitzgerald cargo holds just below deck.

1115
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: Then it takes another half hour to close those holds,

1116
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:53,359
Speaker 1: and they have to manually seal the hatches, and those

1117
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 1: hatches are above deck and once the hatch cover clamps

1118
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 1: are shut. And I'm going like this, but I don't know,

1119
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:02,359
Speaker 1: I know nothing about what I'm talking about.

1120
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 2: That way could go differently.

1121
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,919
Speaker 1: I'm picturing it like those hermetic jars with the ball

1122
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: jars with a little bit of rubber. It's probably nothing

1123
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: like that, but anyway, that's a very important part of

1124
00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 1: it where they have to seal that and then they'll

1125
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 1: be weather tight once those clamps are sealed. Around two o'clock,

1126
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 1: the Edmund Fitzgerald is ready to set out. It's a warm,

1127
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: beautiful autumn day and Superior Wisconsin. It makes it seem

1128
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:28,919
Speaker 1: like everything's going to be smooth sailing, but the Great

1129
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 1: Lakes are known to throw a few curveballs weather wise,

1130
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 1: especially at this time of year because it's autumn, so

1131
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 1: the water's still a little bit warm from the summer.

1132
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 1: But the cold fronts come in and that's how you

1133
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 1: get all the action. Okay, again, I don't really know

1134
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 1: this I am reading. So if you grow up in

1135
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 1: this part of the United States or Canada, you know

1136
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: kind of how all this works. But if you didn't

1137
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 1: like us, The Great Lakes are very large. Collectively, they

1138
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:01,320
Speaker 1: span ninety five thousand square miles hold about twenty percent

1139
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: of the entire planet's fresh water. Yeah, they're big deal.

1140
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:09,879
Speaker 1: And one of them, the one that the Edmund Fitzgerald

1141
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 1: will be crossing in this run, is Lake Superior, and

1142
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 1: it's by far the largest. Superior contains about half of

1143
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 1: the Great Lake's total water. So of the twenty percent

1144
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:23,359
Speaker 1: on the planet, ten percent is Lakesperior. Not sure if

1145
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 1: that math is right, but basically that would be somewhere

1146
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:32,719
Speaker 1: around three quadrillion gallons of water. Fuck, so we're up

1147
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 1: above trillion into an area I don't like to go to.

1148
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:36,439
Speaker 2: I'm not there.

1149
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,719
Speaker 1: Please, let's not that's enough to flood the entirety of

1150
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:42,959
Speaker 1: both North and South America one foot deep in water.

1151
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 1: Holy shit, it's roughly the size of Maine Lake Superior

1152
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 1: is and at its deepest point you could submerge the

1153
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 1: Empire State Building and only its antenna would be sticking

1154
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 1: out of the lake.

1155
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 2: So just what's down there?

1156
00:55:57,120 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 1: The fish with the light, Yeah, there's some fresh water

1157
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 1: version of that and Merman. So what Captain mcsorely is

1158
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 1: now sailing across? I don't think sailing is the right word.

1159
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:12,839
Speaker 1: Traversing has the ability to generate and amplify its own

1160
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:16,759
Speaker 1: weather systems, just like the ocean in autumn. I just

1161
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 1: explained to you this part. Cold fronts move in and

1162
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 1: it clashes with the warmer lake water, still not warm water,

1163
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 1: but warmer than the cold fronts, and that causes these

1164
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 1: violent storms that are called the Witches of November. So

1165
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 1: Captain mcsrely isn't fooled by the beautiful afternoon weather. He

1166
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:39,399
Speaker 1: knows conditions on the lake's turn quickly. He's been doing

1167
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,160
Speaker 1: it for forty years. He's also been following the weather reports.

1168
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 1: But it is the mid seventies, so they're slower and

1169
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: of course more rudimentary than we're used to. Still, when

1170
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: they start this journey, there's no weather warnings in effect.

1171
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 1: But what Captain McSorley doesn't know is there is a

1172
00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:59,359
Speaker 1: powerful weather system moving out of the Great Plains and

1173
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:02,360
Speaker 1: doing what's called a panhandle hook. You know this one.

1174
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:06,359
Speaker 1: It's a storm that originates in the Texas and Oklahoma panhandles.

1175
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:10,760
Speaker 1: It moves east before making a hook shape motion northeast

1176
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 1: and straight toward the Great Lakes. And this type of

1177
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: weather pattern is rare and it comes as a surprise

1178
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 1: even to the forecasters. So several hours after the Edmund

1179
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 1: Fitzgerald leaves Superior, Wisconsin, the lake suddenly becomes rough.

1180
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 2: That scares me so much because it's like you can

1181
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 2: plan all you want, like that recent Tahoe storm.

1182
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 1: Came out of nowhere, yes, and just killed people that

1183
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 1: were out like on kayaks.

1184
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 2: Because it was a beautiful day and no one expected that.

1185
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,480
Speaker 1: No way hailing. I saw a video of people on

1186
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: the shore where it was just like huge balls of hail.

1187
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 2: It's just not fair weather.

1188
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 1: It's a little crazy, okay. So nine o'clock that night,

1189
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: it's seven hours into the Fitzgerald's trip, and the National

1190
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 1: Weather Service issues a gale warning for Lake Superior, meaning

1191
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 1: that they're anticipating sustained winds between thirty nine and fifty

1192
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 1: five five miles an hour, And just for perspective, a

1193
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 1: Category one hurricane falls between seventy five and ninety five

1194
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 1: miles an hour, so it's approaching hurricane levels. Not there yet.

1195
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 1: It's not an ideal situation. But Captain mcsorly, he's seen

1196
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: it all, and also he's not alone out there. There's

1197
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 1: another big iron ore freighter called the SS Arthur m Anderson.

1198
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 1: These fucking men in their boat name a boat after me,

1199
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 1: Name a boat after me. I demand it. So that

1200
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 1: ship is also completing the same trip across Lake Superior,

1201
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 1: and that ship is helmed by Captain Bernie Cooper, a

1202
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 1: thirty year veteran of the field, and they're only about

1203
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 1: ten miles behind the Fitzgerald. So those two captains see

1204
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 1: each other on each other's ship's radar and they radio

1205
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 1: to each other, they check in. Captain Cooper is charting

1206
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 1: the weather himself and based on the latest forecast, so

1207
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,280
Speaker 1: he warns Captain McSorley the situation is going to get

1208
00:58:56,360 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 1: much much worse. And Captain mcsorly heeds that warning. He

1209
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 1: wants to ensure everything on the Fitzgerald is weather tight

1210
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:05,959
Speaker 1: and secured so the ship won't take on any water

1211
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 1: as the weather deteriorates, so the crew is dispatched to

1212
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 1: double check all the clamped hatch covers. Around midnight, the

1213
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 1: National Weather Service upgrades its existing gale warning to a

1214
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 1: storm warning. Now it's predicting the northeast winds of up

1215
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 1: to fifty seven miles per hour or more. It's getting close.

1216
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 1: But even before that issue is posted, the Fitzgerald is

1217
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 1: already clocking winds out of the north northeast at sixty

1218
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 1: miles an hour and waves that are ten feet tall

1219
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 1: in a lake in a lake.

1220
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 2: Weird, yeah, lakes, how do they work lakes?

1221
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:45,200
Speaker 1: And suddenly it's just like a bank is sitting next

1222
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 1: to you on your boat. So of course there's rainfall,

1223
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:52,600
Speaker 1: so there's very low visibility, but the Fitzgerald and the

1224
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 1: Anderson can see each other on their radars. They remain

1225
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 1: in radio contact, so they're not that worried about that part.

1226
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 1: The buddy system, yes, exactly. These big boats have friends.

1227
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 1: Not long after the upgraded warning is posted, the captains

1228
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 1: decide they're going to re route north and charte a

1229
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 1: new path that runs along the Canadian shoreline. So, even

1230
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 1: though it makes the trips longer, being closer to land

1231
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 1: will give them cover from these northeasterly winds. And of

1232
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 1: course it's not an ideal situation, but because these captains

1233
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 1: have eighty years of experience between them, they feel like

1234
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 1: they have it under control. But by five am the

1235
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:31,880
Speaker 1: next morning, on November tenth, the situation becomes more volatile.

1236
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 1: The skies above the two ships on Lake Superior darken,

1237
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 1: the clouds swell, and the captains find themselves in the

1238
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 1: thick of a brutal storm. The freighters are hit with

1239
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 1: wind gusts at nearly one hundred miles an hour, so

1240
01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:46,440
Speaker 1: we've gone double.

1241
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 2: Hurricand one hundred.

1242
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's actually what you'd see in a Category two hurricane.

1243
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 1: Huge waves dump water onto the decks as these ships

1244
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 1: rise and fall on the Superior like little bath toys,

1245
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 1: they have no other option than to keep moving. So

1246
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,240
Speaker 1: around noon that day, the two captains decide it's time

1247
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:08,600
Speaker 1: to turn back south towards Sue Saint Marie. But this

1248
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 1: is a little tricky because it requires passing an area

1249
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:15,880
Speaker 1: called the six fathom shoal, which is a shallow, mile

1250
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 1: long underwater reef. But it's not a coral reef. It's

1251
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 1: made up of huge jagged rocks. Cool huh, And those

1252
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 1: are rocks that could absolutely, of course rip up the

1253
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:30,040
Speaker 1: belly of a ship like this. Normally captains have to

1254
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 1: avoid the shoal. In this storm, they can't maintain the

1255
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:36,680
Speaker 1: control to avoid the shoal. Large waves are knocking the

1256
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:39,400
Speaker 1: freighters around while making it hard to get a visual

1257
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 1: on the shoals themselves, so they can't see and they

1258
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 1: know they're going toward them. And then it starts to snow,

1259
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 1: and it snows really hard, and before long they're in

1260
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:51,440
Speaker 1: wide out conditions on the lake and they can only

1261
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 1: track each other by radar. Then around three pm, which

1262
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 1: is a full twenty four hours into this trip, Captain

1263
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 1: Cooper looks at his radar and he sees that the

1264
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 1: Fitzgerald is dangerously close to six fathom shoal. So around

1265
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:08,960
Speaker 1: three ten he radios Captain McSorley. But McSorley brings up

1266
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 1: an entirely different problem, which is he says the seas

1267
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:15,800
Speaker 1: are so high they're interfering with the Fitzgerald's radar system,

1268
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 1: and so he's now blindly navigating on Lake Superior in

1269
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 1: wide out conditions with waves the size of three story buildings.

1270
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 1: They've gone to three no, thank you. Mcsorly tells Cooper.

1271
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 1: The Fitzgerald is taking quote heavy seas over the deck

1272
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 1: and listing to one side, which means the ship is

1273
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:37,760
Speaker 1: taking on water, but McSorley doesn't know if that's purely

1274
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:40,960
Speaker 1: because of the waves or because of their structural damage

1275
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 1: below deck. He tells Cooper's crew is working to pump

1276
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 1: out all the water to write the ship. So then

1277
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 1: the captains come up with a plan. McSorley is going

1278
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 1: to slow the Fitzgerald and give Cooper a chance to

1279
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 1: catch up to him, because they were about ten miles apart,

1280
01:02:56,600 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 1: and then McSorley is going to follow the Anderson to

1281
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 1: the nearest safe harbor because they have radar, and that

1282
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:07,160
Speaker 1: will be several miles away in Whitefish Bay, which is

1283
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:10,600
Speaker 1: on the eastern end of Lake Superior between Ontario and Michigan.

1284
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:15,040
Speaker 1: But by four pm, hurricane force winds are still blowing.

1285
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 1: More snow is dumping down and in these violent waves,

1286
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 1: Captain Cooper struggles to keep a visual on the Fitzgerald,

1287
01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 1: so the Fitzgerald couldn't see them, and now he can

1288
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 1: barely see the Fitzgerald. The navigation issues that McSorley mentioned

1289
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:32,680
Speaker 1: also mean that Anderson can only intermittently see the ship

1290
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 1: on his radar, and it keeps basically dropping on and

1291
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,880
Speaker 1: off the map. So now it's five pm, Anderson's still

1292
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 1: trying to catch up to the Edmund Fitzgerald, and of

1293
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:46,959
Speaker 1: course Captain McSorley is on edge. He's radioing to any

1294
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:49,480
Speaker 1: and all reachable ships to check his position since his

1295
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:52,880
Speaker 1: radar is down. He actually connects with a Swedish vessel

1296
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:56,880
Speaker 1: in Whitefish Bay. McSorley tells that ship's crew that waves

1297
01:03:56,880 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 1: are still washing over his cargo deck and that in

1298
01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:03,120
Speaker 1: his forty years he's never seen a storm this powerful.

1299
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 1: At six forty pm, Captain Cooper reports a succession of

1300
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 1: two thirty five foot rogue waves that knock into the Anderson.

1301
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:16,600
Speaker 1: The Discovery documentary describes these waves as quote as powerful

1302
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:19,920
Speaker 1: as those found in a mid ocean cyclone.

1303
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:22,640
Speaker 2: So it just goes, you've seen that video of the

1304
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:27,080
Speaker 2: fucking wave in the ocean on that tanker. Oh, my god,

1305
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 2: it's the scariest.

1306
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:30,520
Speaker 1: Fucking When they used to do the North Sea things,

1307
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:34,720
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, whatever, Yeah, how do they do that?

1308
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 2: I don't know?

1309
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:37,360
Speaker 1: And then they kind of just get used to it.

1310
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 1: It's like that's what regular life is. Like. No, please, no, please,

1311
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 1: don't make us do that.

1312
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 2: Stop making us become sailors.

1313
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 1: Just start crying. At seven to ten pm, Captain McSorley

1314
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 1: radios over to the Anderson again, and this time he

1315
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 1: talks to first mate Morgan Clark, who can see the

1316
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:59,160
Speaker 1: Fitzgerald on the radar. He gives McSorley his position, and

1317
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:04,240
Speaker 1: when Clark asked the captain how he's faring, McSorley simply replies, quote,

1318
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:07,640
Speaker 1: we are holding our own. Those are his last words.

1319
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:11,440
Speaker 1: Minutes later, at seven fifteen, the Edmund Fitzgerald drops off

1320
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:15,320
Speaker 1: the radar and it never reappears. By seven point thirty,

1321
01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 1: the storm is still raging on Lake Superior, but the

1322
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:21,240
Speaker 1: snowfall lightens up a little bit, so visibility improves. Based

1323
01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 1: on the Fitzgerald's last position, Captain Cooper thinks he could

1324
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:27,840
Speaker 1: be getting closer to them, but when he looks out

1325
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:30,440
Speaker 1: to catch a glimpse of them, he can't see anything

1326
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 1: like he can't see them at all. And at the

1327
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:36,240
Speaker 1: same time, the Anderson's first mate, Morgan Clark, is trying

1328
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 1: to reach Captain McSorley again by radio, but there's no answer,

1329
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 1: so a rattled Captain Cooper calls the US Coastguard tells

1330
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 1: them he's worried that something terrible has happened. So the

1331
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 1: Coastguard launches an immediate search for the Edmund Fitzgerald, but

1332
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:52,760
Speaker 1: there's a problem. All their big rescue ships are too

1333
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:56,680
Speaker 1: far away, and the smaller boats can't go through that storm.

1334
01:05:56,800 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 1: They can't weather it. The Coastguard starts with an air search,

1335
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 1: but they don't see any sign of the Fitzgerald at all.

1336
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 1: From the air, a ship that's the size of two

1337
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:11,080
Speaker 1: football fields seems to have vanished. The immediate presumption, of course,

1338
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 1: would be that the Fitzgerald sank, because basically what else

1339
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 1: could it be. But the idea that it could go

1340
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 1: under that quickly without Captain Cooper or one of the

1341
01:06:19,600 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 1: Coastguard planes seeing it at all is pretty unbelievable, and

1342
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:27,600
Speaker 1: just for a very rough comparison the Titanic, which is

1343
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:32,400
Speaker 1: much much larger, but still it's comparable. It took two

1344
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:34,960
Speaker 1: and a half hours to sink, so the idea that

1345
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:38,000
Speaker 1: suddenly it's just gone is crazy. With a few other

1346
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:41,480
Speaker 1: options available, the Coastguard asks the captains of eight large

1347
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:45,920
Speaker 1: ships sheltering in Whitefish Bay to join this search. Basically,

1348
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 1: they're asking all these captains who have just come in

1349
01:06:48,040 --> 01:06:51,200
Speaker 1: from a storm to go back out. So nearly all

1350
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:54,840
Speaker 1: of them decline, but two do agree. One is Captain

1351
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:57,919
Speaker 1: Don Rickson of the William Clayford, which is another big

1352
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:00,800
Speaker 1: ore freighter, and the other is not other than Captain

1353
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:04,920
Speaker 1: Bernie Cooper of the Arthur Anderson. So those two ships

1354
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 1: spend all nights searching for the Edmund Fitzgerald. They find nothing. Wow,

1355
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:12,280
Speaker 1: that is until eleven am the next morning, when they

1356
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:15,920
Speaker 1: see a battered lifeboat, which Captain Cooper says, quote looked

1357
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:18,400
Speaker 1: like a giant hand had just taken and torn it

1358
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:18,760
Speaker 1: in two.

1359
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:21,560
Speaker 2: There's nobody in the lifeboat, it's just.

1360
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:23,240
Speaker 1: The boat torn in half.

1361
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:24,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1362
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:27,080
Speaker 1: They see an oil slick and more debris like an

1363
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:30,280
Speaker 1: inflatable raft and some life jackets, but by this point

1364
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 1: any hope for survivors is gone. The lake water is

1365
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:36,800
Speaker 1: less than fifty degrees, which is only survivable for a

1366
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:40,160
Speaker 1: short window of time, even when the water's calm. But

1367
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:43,080
Speaker 1: this water is not calm, which makes it even more lethal.

1368
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:47,120
Speaker 1: A coastguardsman named James Hobbat will say, quote, we search

1369
01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:49,960
Speaker 1: for three days in probably the roughest seas I've been

1370
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:53,520
Speaker 1: in in my life, including the North Atlantic and hurricanes

1371
01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:57,320
Speaker 1: in the Gulf Yikes. On November fourteenth, four days after

1372
01:07:57,320 --> 01:08:01,600
Speaker 1: the Edmund Fitzgerald disappears, a US Navy plane using magnetic

1373
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 1: detecting gear hits on a large object at the bottom

1374
01:08:05,160 --> 01:08:08,400
Speaker 1: of Lake Superior, right around where the Fitzgerald was last

1375
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:11,920
Speaker 1: seen on radar, and using the military's equipment, searchers are

1376
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:14,520
Speaker 1: soon able to determine that this is, in fact the

1377
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:18,599
Speaker 1: Edmund Fitzgerald, split in two on the bottom of the lake,

1378
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:22,160
Speaker 1: seventeen miles away from Whitefish Bay, where they were trying

1379
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:26,439
Speaker 1: to get to. That means Captain McSorley almost got his

1380
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 1: crew to safety.

1381
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:28,680
Speaker 2: Yesh, seventeen miles is not a lot.

1382
01:08:28,760 --> 01:08:31,600
Speaker 1: It's so close when it's two football fields yea on

1383
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:35,320
Speaker 1: its way. But even after the ship's located, no one

1384
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:37,679
Speaker 1: can agree on what actually caused it to go down.

1385
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:41,360
Speaker 1: Two federal investigations are conducted in the late seventies. Both

1386
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:45,160
Speaker 1: concede will never know exactly what happened, but they both

1387
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:48,680
Speaker 1: suggest the likeliest culprit were those hatch covers on the

1388
01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 1: cargo holds.

1389
01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:51,240
Speaker 2: Oh, those bell jar things we were talking about.

1390
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 1: The bell jars. A report suggests that they might not

1391
01:08:55,120 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 1: have been clamped tightly enough, and in the storm, huge

1392
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:02,280
Speaker 1: waves pouring onto the deck, so much lake water spilled

1393
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 1: into the cargo holds, and basically the ship became so

1394
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:07,479
Speaker 1: water logged that it went down. It made it go

1395
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:11,800
Speaker 1: down fast. But that's a very controversial theory for a

1396
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:14,320
Speaker 1: couple of reasons. One, it puts a blame on the crew,

1397
01:09:14,360 --> 01:09:17,479
Speaker 1: on the Fitzgerald's crew. Many people object to that because

1398
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 1: these people knew what they were doing, they did it

1399
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 1: all the time. But many Great Lakes captains and engineers

1400
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:27,439
Speaker 1: reject that theory because even if the covers weren't perfectly sealed,

1401
01:09:27,920 --> 01:09:30,439
Speaker 1: we know that they were as close to that as possible,

1402
01:09:30,439 --> 01:09:33,360
Speaker 1: because the captain called for them to be rechecked. It's

1403
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:36,559
Speaker 1: hard to imagine enough water would have been able to

1404
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:39,439
Speaker 1: down a seven hundred and twenty nine foot or freighter

1405
01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:41,280
Speaker 1: in seconds. It just doesn't make sense.

1406
01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:42,840
Speaker 2: You had to imagine that it's able to take on

1407
01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:47,120
Speaker 2: some amount of water without fucking falling apart. Yes, you know, right.

1408
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:49,720
Speaker 1: So that brings us to the second theory, which is

1409
01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:53,840
Speaker 1: people thinking that the Edmund Fitzgerald actually was physically damaged,

1410
01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 1: either by a stress fracture incurred while it was just

1411
01:09:57,320 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 1: being slammed around in the water, or because it scraped

1412
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:04,559
Speaker 1: six fathom shoal. And that's what Captain Cooper thinks happened.

1413
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:07,960
Speaker 1: He theorizes that the fatal blow actually happened hours before

1414
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:11,799
Speaker 1: the sinking, when Captain McSorley first reported the fifth Gerald

1415
01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:15,439
Speaker 1: was listing. Captain Cooper has said, quote, I don't care

1416
01:10:15,479 --> 01:10:18,360
Speaker 1: what anybody says. At three ten in the afternoon, she

1417
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:22,000
Speaker 1: meaning that Fitzgerald had either bottomed out or had a

1418
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:25,400
Speaker 1: stress fracture in the hull. That's the only two possibilities.

1419
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 1: She was sinking from that time on.

1420
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:28,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense.

1421
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:31,639
Speaker 1: That makes much more sense. Cooper also points out it's

1422
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:35,360
Speaker 1: totally possible Captain mcsorly didn't even feel the fatal blow

1423
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:38,240
Speaker 1: or scrape because the lake was so turbulent that it

1424
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:41,840
Speaker 1: was like one of many things going on. But that

1425
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:45,160
Speaker 1: still doesn't explain why Captain McSorley, who was using his radio,

1426
01:10:45,320 --> 01:10:49,400
Speaker 1: didn't call anyone as the ship was actually sinking. It

1427
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:52,880
Speaker 1: adds to the suspicion that it went down within seconds.

1428
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:56,879
Speaker 1: So whether you ascribe to the theory about the hatches

1429
01:10:56,960 --> 01:10:59,600
Speaker 1: or the damage, many people also think that there was

1430
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:03,840
Speaker 1: a final catastrophic rogue wave that took the already compromise

1431
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:06,679
Speaker 1: ship and buried her before any of its crew could

1432
01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:07,880
Speaker 1: escape or call for help.

1433
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:11,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, you'd think if it sunk, like at least some

1434
01:11:11,439 --> 01:11:13,240
Speaker 2: people would have gotten off.

1435
01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:16,200
Speaker 1: Of it, gotten away somehow or Yeah. And also the

1436
01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:19,799
Speaker 1: fact that it's just cracked into so we'll never truly

1437
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:22,160
Speaker 1: know what happened, and that of course has been a

1438
01:11:22,160 --> 01:11:24,759
Speaker 1: source of pain for the Creuse loved ones over the years,

1439
01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:29,760
Speaker 1: many of whom first learned about the wreck of the

1440
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:34,880
Speaker 1: Edmund Fitzgerald by watching The Nightly news Man Horrible. So

1441
01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:39,439
Speaker 1: very soon after that wreck, Canadian traditional singer Gordon Lightfoot,

1442
01:11:39,439 --> 01:11:43,439
Speaker 1: who's beloved anyway, some great hits. If you I think

1443
01:11:43,479 --> 01:11:46,280
Speaker 1: Sundown might be one of my favorite songs of all time.

1444
01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:49,960
Speaker 1: He has that really good low voice, yeah, and the beard,

1445
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:52,160
Speaker 1: and he was like he was, you know, he's a

1446
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:52,519
Speaker 1: hot guy.

1447
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:54,439
Speaker 2: Jinks Miller genuine draft or something.

1448
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:57,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was like the vibe of the mid to

1449
01:11:57,120 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 1: late sevens. So he reads about the Edmund Fitzgerald sinking

1450
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:07,720
Speaker 1: in Newsweek weeks after the tragedy, and he is really

1451
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:10,639
Speaker 1: upset that it wasn't more widely reported and more people

1452
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:13,920
Speaker 1: don't know about that tragedy. So he goes into the

1453
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:16,800
Speaker 1: studio and he records what would end up being his

1454
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:20,400
Speaker 1: legendary ballad, The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, which he

1455
01:12:20,520 --> 01:12:23,920
Speaker 1: will later say is his proudest achievement. Wow, what I

1456
01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:25,920
Speaker 1: think is really interesting. And I did see this on

1457
01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:30,080
Speaker 1: TikTok So Grain of Salt, but somebody said, what you hear?

1458
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:32,040
Speaker 1: It was a guy that knew so much. He was

1459
01:12:32,040 --> 01:12:34,040
Speaker 1: like one of those music guys. I'm sorry I didn't

1460
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 1: write down his name that you knew. He probably read

1461
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:40,519
Speaker 1: like four books on the wreck and on Gordon Lightfoot

1462
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:44,320
Speaker 1: and on Canada and the seventies a little pork Pie Hat.

1463
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:50,000
Speaker 1: And he said that basically Gordon Lightfoot got like an

1464
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:53,639
Speaker 1: Irish traditional ballad, like those are the chords he was using,

1465
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:56,760
Speaker 1: and they just wrote the actual words and they went

1466
01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:00,679
Speaker 1: into the studio to record it, and he just everybody,

1467
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:02,880
Speaker 1: just like, play what you feel because it's a really

1468
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:06,880
Speaker 1: simple tune and they got the first take and then

1469
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:08,640
Speaker 1: when they tried to go do it again like the

1470
01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:11,400
Speaker 1: real version, it just didn't feel right. So what you

1471
01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:13,960
Speaker 1: hear when you hear it is their very first take

1472
01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:17,840
Speaker 1: ever of the song. Wow, very cool and like people

1473
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:20,040
Speaker 1: were asking questions. He's like, I don't know, just do

1474
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:22,519
Speaker 1: what you think sounds good, and like that's what it

1475
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:25,280
Speaker 1: ended up being, which then ended up being number one

1476
01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:28,360
Speaker 1: on the Canadian charts and all went to number two

1477
01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:31,760
Speaker 1: on the American charts. So it was a huge hit. Again,

1478
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:34,320
Speaker 1: not as good as sund Out, Okay, I shouldn't be

1479
01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:37,400
Speaker 1: arguing that in this story truly, it's like all of

1480
01:13:37,439 --> 01:13:40,160
Speaker 1: Canada knocks on our door. So to this day, the

1481
01:13:40,200 --> 01:13:43,960
Speaker 1: bodies of the crew of the Edmund Fitzgerald remain buried

1482
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:48,120
Speaker 1: in Lake Superior, five hundred and thirty feet underwater, and

1483
01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:51,479
Speaker 1: over the years, the crew's friends and families have come

1484
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:53,519
Speaker 1: to see the reck site as a burial place that

1485
01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:56,519
Speaker 1: should be respected as such. They've made it clear they

1486
01:13:56,520 --> 01:14:00,160
Speaker 1: don't want dives to the wreckage, they don't want anybody

1487
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:04,080
Speaker 1: bothering it. They want everything to remain on board as

1488
01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:06,519
Speaker 1: it was, and just for it to be like that

1489
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:10,759
Speaker 1: sacred place. But for most families, there's been one exception

1490
01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:14,240
Speaker 1: to that rule. In the mid nineties, they agreed that

1491
01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:19,040
Speaker 1: the Edmund Fitzgerald's bell, which is the heart of any ship,

1492
01:14:19,479 --> 01:14:23,120
Speaker 1: should be excavated and brought up and used as a monument.

1493
01:14:23,880 --> 01:14:26,559
Speaker 1: It's a huge endeavor, involving careful planning and a team

1494
01:14:26,600 --> 01:14:30,200
Speaker 1: of expert divers, but ultimately it's a success, and in

1495
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:33,640
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five the bell is removed and replaced with

1496
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:37,559
Speaker 1: a replica that lists the names of Captain McSorley and

1497
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:41,400
Speaker 1: his twenty crewmen, and the same year, during a dedication

1498
01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:44,759
Speaker 1: ceremony for the bell, each man's name is read aloud,

1499
01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:48,280
Speaker 1: one by one, and as they are their respective family

1500
01:14:48,280 --> 01:14:51,880
Speaker 1: members ring the bell to honor their lost loved one.

1501
01:14:52,240 --> 01:14:56,360
Speaker 1: Don Donarski, Junior of the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society

1502
01:14:56,479 --> 01:14:59,240
Speaker 1: is among the speakers at this event, and he says

1503
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:02,320
Speaker 1: in his speech that quote, as we remember the men

1504
01:15:02,439 --> 01:15:05,000
Speaker 1: and hear the tolling of the bell, we should grieve,

1505
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:08,120
Speaker 1: but we should also celebrate their lives as well as

1506
01:15:08,120 --> 01:15:10,240
Speaker 1: the bell is in their hearts, so they are in

1507
01:15:10,320 --> 01:15:13,120
Speaker 1: the bell, and in the bell's tone are the voices

1508
01:15:13,120 --> 01:15:18,599
Speaker 1: of the men, and we shall listen. So Captain Bernie

1509
01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:21,880
Speaker 1: Cooper has already he passed in nineteen ninety three when

1510
01:15:21,880 --> 01:15:25,040
Speaker 1: he was in his mid seventies, before that ceremony took place.

1511
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:28,400
Speaker 1: But his heroism is reflected in the US Coast Guard

1512
01:15:28,479 --> 01:15:31,880
Speaker 1: Distinguished Public Service Award that he's given for his participation

1513
01:15:31,960 --> 01:15:35,000
Speaker 1: in the search effort. And today Big Fits's bell is

1514
01:15:35,040 --> 01:15:38,599
Speaker 1: on display at the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society Museum,

1515
01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:42,559
Speaker 1: which is fittingly located in Whitefish Point in Michigan, which

1516
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:45,599
Speaker 1: is the entry point for Whitefish Bay. Just a few

1517
01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:49,360
Speaker 1: weeks ago, in November of twenty twenty five, events commemorating

1518
01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:52,600
Speaker 1: the fiftieth anniversary of the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald

1519
01:15:53,000 --> 01:15:56,080
Speaker 1: took place there and as many as three thousand people

1520
01:15:56,200 --> 01:15:59,680
Speaker 1: showed up to pay tribute. Wow, so those in a

1521
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:02,599
Speaker 1: ten t would have heard the ship's bell ring thirty

1522
01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:06,479
Speaker 1: one times. So since that very first ceremony back in

1523
01:16:06,479 --> 01:16:10,600
Speaker 1: the nineties, two additional bell ringings have been added. It

1524
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:13,880
Speaker 1: rings twenty nine times for the Edmund Fitzgerald's lost crew.

1525
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:17,000
Speaker 1: It rings a thirtieth time for all sailors lost on

1526
01:16:17,040 --> 01:16:19,960
Speaker 1: the Great Lakes, and since twenty twenty three there's an

1527
01:16:19,960 --> 01:16:24,400
Speaker 1: additional ring commemorating Gordon Lightfoot himself, who passed away that year.

1528
01:16:24,760 --> 01:16:25,480
Speaker 2: No way.

1529
01:16:26,200 --> 01:16:29,680
Speaker 1: And what's interesting is that Gordon Lightfoot actually wrote the

1530
01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:34,479
Speaker 1: song and then talked to surviving loved ones and tweaked

1531
01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:37,360
Speaker 1: the original lyrics if there was anything that he got

1532
01:16:37,360 --> 01:16:41,240
Speaker 1: wrong or that he changed. And basically this song is

1533
01:16:41,280 --> 01:16:44,960
Speaker 1: undeniably preserved the history and kept the story of this

1534
01:16:45,160 --> 01:16:50,320
Speaker 1: horrible disaster alive. And the week of November thirteenth, twenty

1535
01:16:50,439 --> 01:16:54,040
Speaker 1: twenty five, when it was the anniversary, the rec of

1536
01:16:54,080 --> 01:16:57,800
Speaker 1: the Edmund Fitzgerald topped the US Billboards Rock Digital song

1537
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:02,400
Speaker 1: Sales for the very first time because four million Americans

1538
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:05,840
Speaker 1: streamed it that week. Yep, and that's the story of

1539
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:08,800
Speaker 1: the sinking of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald.

1540
01:17:08,920 --> 01:17:11,160
Speaker 2: Wow, this is going to be so pleased that I

1541
01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:12,879
Speaker 2: now know what the fuck happened?

1542
01:17:12,920 --> 01:17:15,040
Speaker 1: What all that's about? Yeah, I mean, it's such a

1543
01:17:15,479 --> 01:17:17,439
Speaker 1: It's so funny because it's like, there's so many people

1544
01:17:17,479 --> 01:17:20,040
Speaker 1: that really love that song and it like it it's

1545
01:17:20,080 --> 01:17:24,240
Speaker 1: important to them. But also, if you want to absolutely

1546
01:17:24,280 --> 01:17:27,320
Speaker 1: destroy a karaoke night, you sign up for that song

1547
01:17:27,400 --> 01:17:27,639
Speaker 1: and a.

1548
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:28,880
Speaker 2: Good way or about destroy it.

1549
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:31,639
Speaker 1: Like the worst way where everyone's like, oh, because it's

1550
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:36,000
Speaker 1: a bummer and there's probably ninety five verses like you're

1551
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:38,840
Speaker 1: just like and it's the same it's the same thing

1552
01:17:38,880 --> 01:17:39,519
Speaker 1: the whole time.

1553
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:43,520
Speaker 2: Okay, that's good to know, because destroy could mean anything.

1554
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:46,439
Speaker 1: If you're out to ruin someone's karaoke birthday party.

1555
01:17:46,479 --> 01:17:47,000
Speaker 2: There you go.

1556
01:17:47,280 --> 01:17:50,360
Speaker 1: That's my recommendation. Write in if you disagree with me

1557
01:17:50,439 --> 01:17:52,000
Speaker 1: and you're super upset right now.

1558
01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:55,920
Speaker 2: Speaking of being super upset, this has been my favorite murder.

1559
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:56,360
Speaker 2: That's right.

1560
01:17:56,400 --> 01:17:59,519
Speaker 1: We hope we've helped you process some big feelings today.

1561
01:18:00,200 --> 01:18:01,880
Speaker 2: You've helped us so much.

1562
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:05,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, and is it twenty twenty six?

1563
01:18:06,280 --> 01:18:06,720
Speaker 2: Not yet.

1564
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:10,800
Speaker 1: We're gonna make it to the.

1565
01:18:10,800 --> 01:18:13,840
Speaker 2: End real soon, so so soon, real soon.

1566
01:18:14,160 --> 01:18:17,240
Speaker 1: Until we do, stay sexy and don't get murdered.

1567
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:26,880
Speaker 2: Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?

1568
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:29,320
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

1569
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:32,240
Speaker 2: Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer

1570
01:18:32,280 --> 01:18:33,000
Speaker 2: is Tessa Hughes.

1571
01:18:33,120 --> 01:18:35,040
Speaker 1: Our editor is Aristotle Ascevedo.

1572
01:18:35,160 --> 01:18:37,320
Speaker 2: This episode was mixed by Leona Squalacci.

1573
01:18:37,479 --> 01:18:40,080
Speaker 1: Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

1574
01:18:40,200 --> 01:18:43,120
Speaker 2: Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot.

1575
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:45,719
Speaker 1: Com and follow the show on Instagram at my Favorite Murder.

1576
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:48,639
Speaker 2: Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

1577
01:18:48,680 --> 01:18:50,080
Speaker 2: Podcasts or wherever you get.

1578
01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:52,240
Speaker 1: Your podcasts, or you can watch us on YouTube. Search

1579
01:18:52,280 --> 01:18:54,600
Speaker 1: for My Favorite Murder, then like and subscribe.

1580
01:18:55,240 --> 01:19:02,559
Speaker 2: Goodbye,