1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: The four ft tall bronze statue of a girl with 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: her hands defiantly on her hips. Fearless Girl became an 3 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: overnight sensation when it debuted on Wall Street on the 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: eve of International Women's Day in March. It became a 5 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: symbol of female empowerment and a representation of the lack 6 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: of gender diversity on Wall Street, and an instant tourist attraction. 7 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: The Fearless Girl faces the iconic eleven foot tall bronze 8 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: Charging Bull statue, and though it drew thousands of signatures 9 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 1: asking that remain permanently in the spot, there's one man 10 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: who's fighting to have it removed. Our True or Demotica, 11 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: the sculptor who created the Charging Bull, says the Fearless 12 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: Girl has turned the message of his work into something 13 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: threatening and negative. The Gela his attorneys have asked to 14 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: have the Fearless Girl move, but Mayor Bill de Blasio tweeted, 15 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: men who don't like women taking up space are exactly 16 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: why we need the Fearless Girl. Deblasio announced at the 17 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: end of last month that the Fearless Girl would remain 18 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: standing through April. Sometimes a symbol helps us become whole, 19 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: and I think the Fearless Girl is having that same effect. 20 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: She is inspiring everyone. Joining me is one of the 21 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: attorneys representing the sculptor, Steve Hyman, a partner McLaughlin and Stern. Steve, 22 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: explain your claims and what legal right an artist has 23 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: to decide what other artwork is placed in an open 24 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: public space. Okay, well to get that, just an open 25 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: public space. It's that the Fearless Girls statue the little 26 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: girl there has incorporated into their art are bolos bull 27 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: as part of their display. And that is not what 28 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: Aturo signed on for. That's not what his bull is 29 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: intended to represent. It's his art. He has a copyright, 30 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: he has a trademark, and he has a moral right 31 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: on the vara and those we believe have been violated 32 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: by putting this statue in directly confronting the bull. In addition, 33 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: this was a very commercial undertaking. While it now has 34 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: other possible meanings, it's the fact is that it was 35 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: a commercial and in front of the very uh little 36 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: girl statue was a plaque advertising she the e t 37 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: s of State Street. Alright, so Steve, let's take these together. 38 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: Let's not take them together, Let's take them apart. Um, 39 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: how strong is a copyright infringement claim when nothing was copied? 40 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: And the Fearless girl it may be an expression of 41 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: the artist. It's a matter of interpreting Ptian. It doesn't 42 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: impinge on the statue at all. It doesn't copy anything 43 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: from the statute. It's not derivative. Is there any element 44 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 1: that the fearless girl shares with the charging bull? Of 45 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: course it's derivative Without the bull? What's the fearless girl? So? 46 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: All right? I might not know the words. What they 47 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: have done is taken the bull into their art and 48 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: it if you remove the bull, what's the We have 49 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: no problem with the statute itself. Put it any place 50 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: you want, have its stand for, whatever you wanted to 51 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: have its stand for. It's putting it into the face 52 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: of the bull that is the issue. And it's I 53 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: think recognized that you can't just take somebody's art and 54 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: make it your own. Well, they're not. There is also 55 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: a copywriter of fair use and transformative fair use. The 56 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: work in a public setting opens the door to fair 57 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: use to the copyright law. That's artwork for educational, critical, scholarly, satirical, 58 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: or newsworthy purposes, and the Ninth Circuit has found that 59 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: remember the Green Days case where they used a poster 60 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: in a video in a context created by other posters 61 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: and graffiti on the wall, and they use the very 62 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: post or in it, and the Ninth Circuit found that 63 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: it was transformative. So why isn't this transformative? Because this 64 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: one is taking the very statue. It's not a copy, 65 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: it's not something else, it is the art where it 66 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: is being displayed, and it's not transformative. It's simply putting 67 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 1: it there to use the bow for her purposes. And 68 00:04:56,400 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: that we believe, and I mean, I understand the arguments, 69 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: but we believe we have the better argument with regard 70 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: to it not being transformative. Well, it seems like the 71 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: Ninth Circuit said in that case that and that video 72 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: backdrop actually used the poster in it. It didn't. It 73 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: didn't just interact with it, it actually used it and 74 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 1: said it conveys new information, new aesthetics, new insights, and 75 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: understandings that are plainly distinct from those of the original piece. 76 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 1: So doesn't the Fearless Girl do that in this setting? No? Um, 77 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: But even more, you also have to deal with the 78 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: moral right issue and the trademark issue. Both of those. 79 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 1: You're you're just focusing on the copyright and the argument, well, 80 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: how does this, how does this infinge on his trademark 81 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 1: and what moral right does he have? Because the moral 82 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: rights is the integrity and reputation of the artists. They 83 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: have modified this bull, they have done it. Now it 84 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: is argued that modification under the statute is just physical, 85 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: but there's no case lord that says that modification is 86 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: they have taken this piece of art and changed it 87 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: for their purpose, and that's a violation of varic And 88 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 1: then you have the trademark where they have taken you know, 89 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: it's like making Coca cola into an alcoholic drink. You 90 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: don't have the right to do that. But the trick 91 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: that Yeah, but the trademark is the bull. It's not 92 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: it's not the bull and the girl. And there's not 93 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: the bull and the girl. Well, the trademark the bull 94 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: still remains. Do you is there a case that you 95 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: can cite that that is like this. No, I I'm 96 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: not in a position to argue as if I'm in 97 00:06:55,600 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: the ninth circuit right now, then I'll take any circuit. 98 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: But it seems like an uppill case. Well, it's an 99 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: unusual case and certainly is raising novel issues. We don't 100 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: dispute that, but the fact is that if you take 101 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: the standards of fair use, one of the first standards 102 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: is commercialization. This was a commercial. They took this as 103 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,239 Speaker 1: a commerci you're looking at it just as a piece 104 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: of art. We're looking at it as a piece of 105 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: art in a commercial for commercial purpose. But now now 106 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: the commercialization is gone because they've taken that away. So 107 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: now you have just a statue which has has been 108 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: transformed into something different. Well, now you're telling me that 109 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,119 Speaker 1: the fact that that's what it was conceived of, that's 110 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: what it was used as, that's what its reputation was 111 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: based on. All with the she add the question, thank you, 112 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: thank you for being on Floomberg Law, and uh, we'll 113 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: look forward to seeing what happens with your suit.