1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: Cools Media. 2 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 2: Tricker treader. I heard, ah, hello, welcome to it could 3 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 2: happen here the Spooky Special. I'm your host, Garrison Davis. 4 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 2: Once again, there has been far too many important world 5 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 2: events taking precedents that we here at the show are 6 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 2: unable to provide listeners with an entire spooky week's worth 7 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 2: of themed episodes. But I know how important Halloween is 8 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: for many millennials, so I've taken it upon myself to 9 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 2: produce two spooky episodes to book and the Holiday, this 10 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: episode that you're listening to right now, as well as 11 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 2: another that will release Monday morning or Sunday night. As 12 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 2: the world is becoming an increasingly spooky, scary play, I 13 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 2: needed to up the ante to exceed the weird and 14 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 2: eerie fright that comes from living in America and the 15 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 2: world in general in twenty twenty five. So last week 16 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 2: I traveled from New York to Brussels, briefly caught up 17 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 2: with my close personal friend and colleague Hinton, and then 18 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 2: took the train to Germany. Very scary indeed, once in Germany, 19 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 2: I was confronted with seemingly occult words and symbols people 20 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 2: spoke in odd incantations. I came across a map that 21 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 2: appeared via my black scrying mirror the iPhone, which, upon deciphering, 22 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 2: led me to an old power plant warehouse in East Berlin. 23 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 2: I entered this dark, looming building and inside the air 24 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 2: was thick with smoke and incense. Figures dressed in all 25 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: black emerged from the fog, witches, wizards, and magicians. I 26 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 2: followed them into a candlelit room where hooded A cultists 27 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 2: conducted a ritual welcoming us to the twenty twenty five 28 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 2: A Culture Conference. A Culture is a bi yearly conference 29 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 2: that's once every two years, focusing on the intersection of 30 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 2: occultism and culture, pop or otherwise. This is arguably the 31 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 2: most prestigious occultism conference in the world. I have been 32 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 2: wanting to attend four years, and I was finally able 33 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: to go this go round on the condition that I 34 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 2: make four podcast episodes. The two that I'm releasing this 35 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 2: week and next will cover some of the core magical 36 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 2: and topical currents throughout the conference, mostly via a panel 37 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 2: discussion between myself and three other attendees, and then before Christmas, 38 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 2: I'll have two fully scripted episodes interrogating these concepts further 39 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 2: and discussing the use of a cult practice in twenty 40 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 2: twenty five. So to start, let's meet our panel lists. 41 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 2: I should introduce my magical travel team for this conference. 42 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: Let's start with Delta, a Belgian magician and artist which 43 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 2: I recruited to join me in this wacky adventure. Delta 44 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 2: say hi, Hello, what do you do Delta? What's your 45 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: magical specialty? 46 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 3: I suppose, Well, it's kind of. 47 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 2: A mix into the microphone. 48 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,399 Speaker 4: It's kind of a mix of things where. 49 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 2: Part of it is just into the microphone. I'm sorry, 50 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 2: how you can you can you can get you can 51 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 2: get ptty close to it? 52 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 3: Okay. 53 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 4: It's a kind of a mix of things really between 54 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 4: conventional chaos magic and more theoretical like weird theory stuff 55 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 4: like Mark Fisher and the CCRU adjacent things. 56 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 2: We talk a lot about Mark Fisher, some landstuff, meta fiction, theory, fiction, hyperstition, 57 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 2: and Delta myself talk about magic through the Internet quite 58 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 2: a bit and how it combines with cultural theory, which 59 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: is relevant to this conference. Let's move over to my left. 60 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 3: I've been recruited along on this magical journey. I'm Ryan. 61 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 3: I practiced the Vajrana, a Greco Egyptian magical practice, and 62 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 3: also am involved in a Haitian voodoo house. Prior to that, 63 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 3: I was also an academic for a good period of 64 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 3: time where I studied Renaissance rhetoric and political theory, philosophy 65 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 3: and economics. So my contributions are going to be wide 66 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 3: and varied. 67 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 2: We've been making a lot of hegel jokes this weekend, 68 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 2: so many hegel jokes to our last crew member, which 69 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 2: people may have heard before on various shows. 70 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 5: Hi'm my name is Elaine, and I make art and 71 00:04:54,839 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 5: research a lot of Renaissance script mark magic, and so 72 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 5: most of the things I do are a lot of 73 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 5: idiosyncratic practices and based on various folk magic and chaos 74 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 5: magic and Balcan folk magic. 75 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 2: Before we continue the conversation between myself and my three guests, 76 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 2: let's start by discussing the word a culture, the namesake 77 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: of the conference. Obviously, this is a combination of the 78 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: word occult and culture, and it describes how the two 79 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 2: influence and possibly undermine one another. To read a quote 80 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 2: from the person who originated the term quote, a culture 81 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 2: is a word that was inevitable during the hyperactive phase 82 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 2: of the Temple of Psychic Youth. In the nineteen eighties, 83 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 2: we were casting around for an all embracing term to 84 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 2: describe an approach to combining a unique, demystified spiritual philosophy 85 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 2: with a fervent insistence that all life and art are indivisible. 86 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 2: At any given our sensory environment is whispering to us, 87 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: telling us hidden stories, revealing subliminal connections. This concealed dialogue 88 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 2: between every level of popular cultural forms and magical conclusions 89 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 2: is what we named a culture that is from Genesis. B. 90 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 2: Purreage a musician, magician, artist, cult leader, and hashtag slightly 91 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: problematic queer icon. In the seventies, they started the band 92 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 2: Throbbing Gristle, pioneered industrial music, and later started the Chaos 93 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 2: magic organization, the Temple of Psychic Youth and its associated 94 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 2: band Psychic TV. Though a culture did not just describe 95 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 2: this sort of personal spiritual movement, it carried a strong 96 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 2: offensive element targeted against society and perceived systems of control 97 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 2: through their many projects, including Throbbing Gristle Psychic TV. In 98 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 2: the Temple of Psychic Youth, Purage utilized art and magical 99 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: practice to conduct a quote unquote war on culture. Similar 100 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 2: to another figure that will soon get to william S Burrows, 101 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 2: a culture describes a process of cultural osmosis. The occult 102 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 2: bleeds into and morph's culture, affecting everything from pop culture 103 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: to politics and philosophy. But as a part of this osmosis, 104 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 2: the occult becomes increasingly commodified, knowable, safe, territory, marketable. The 105 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: hidden occult loses its very essence of being hidden despite 106 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 2: its use as a tool of attack against mainstream culture. 107 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: Like most countercultural forms, the occult has been largely recuperated. 108 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 2: Even creative works which are genuine explorations into the occult 109 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 2: fall into this recuperation herodigm They get turned into products 110 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 2: consumed by a mostly secular audience, the works of Dueling wizards, 111 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 2: Alan Moore and Grant Morrison. Now, some occultists rejoice, knowing 112 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 2: that this wide exposure will influence more people to become 113 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 2: interested in or adopt occult practices of their own, while 114 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 2: others bemoan this dilution and commodification of what to them 115 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 2: is an important spiritual practice. As the modern occult revival, 116 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 2: along with a heavy helping hand of scientific advancement, deterritorialized 117 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 2: Christian hegemonic religion. Now the occult itself has been re territorialized, 118 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 2: which is not to say that the occult is no 119 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 2: longer a field of play, which is what this conference 120 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: attempts to assert. Let's go back to the panel. 121 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 3: In terms of the conference itself, as we'll get into later, 122 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 3: the term a culture very specifically seems to be focused 123 00:08:54,559 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 3: on the study of the interrelation of magical practic and 124 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 3: the material aspects of a cult culture and its influence 125 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 3: and appropriation by wider society. So in terms of political 126 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 3: projects or social projects, you can probably relate this. I 127 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 3: think that it would be fair to say that it's 128 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 3: something like culture jamming if we're looking for some familiar 129 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 3: concepts for people to map onto. That is to say, 130 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 3: a focus away from simply solitary practice in the ways 131 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 3: in which occult elements influence broader aspects of our society 132 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 3: or are appropriated, whether that's through consumerist forces or through 133 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 3: various artistic practices, or even the production of for example, film, 134 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 3: television movies. So I think that's a fair assessment of 135 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 3: the impacts of a culture. 136 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 2: And relevant to our discussion later. It's influenced in the 137 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 2: tech sector and the emergence of AI, which the current 138 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 2: manifestation of has some heavily occult origins regarding around a 139 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 2: whole bunch of people in the nineties who were writing 140 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 2: about AI as this as this occult project, and that 141 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 2: influenced many a AI engineer and coder who are now 142 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 2: building this stuff and it's becoming an ever present part 143 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 2: of our lives, and the occultists now are trying to 144 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 2: incorporate it into their own practice, which we will discuss 145 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 2: in a sect any other notes on a culture as 146 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 2: a concept or what this conference is doing with the concept. 147 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 5: I think a culture is a concept is something that's 148 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 5: basically been around as long as there's been magical practices, 149 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 5: just looking at so much of things, like you know, 150 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 5: the concept of the British Empire being invented by John 151 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 5: d because of conversations he was having with angels. So 152 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 5: I think that naming it and calling it something is 153 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 5: also very much felt like an attempt to sort of 154 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 5: regain control over the ways that magical practice and greater 155 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 5: society seemed to influence each other there as opposed to 156 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 5: a more unintentional way that they have been going back 157 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 5: and forth for hundreds if not thousands of years. 158 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 3: There may also be one other aspect that's important for 159 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 3: our American audiences. Given that we're recording this in Deutscheland, 160 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 3: this conference varies significantly from other American equivalents, or something 161 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 3: that might be an American equivalent formerly Panthea Con in 162 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 3: and around San Francisco and San Jose specifically, or Paganicon 163 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 3: in the Twin Cities, which specifically has much more of 164 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 3: a New Age neopagan reconstructionist And so most academic discussion 165 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 3: is viewed with some suspicion. And I'm hesitant to say 166 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 3: that there's an anti intellectual trend because I don't necessarily 167 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 3: think that's true. However, there is a resistance to the 168 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 3: kind of academic styling that we saw very prevalent at 169 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 3: this conference to talk about the occult, but more generally 170 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 3: as an area of study in addition to just idiosyncratic 171 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 3: practice or part of a larger social neopagan movement, which 172 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 3: is again very much the focus of most US based conferences. 173 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 2: As an editorial note, when we're talking about magic, to clarify, 174 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 2: we're not talking about stage magicians. We're referring to magic 175 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: with a K that is rituals and practices based on 176 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 2: occult knowledge. It seeks to cause change in accordance with will, 177 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 2: whether that's change within yourself or in our consensus reality. 178 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 2: Occult magical practice can also serve as a form of spirituality, mysticism, 179 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: an alternative religious practice, or an alternative to religion, with 180 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 2: its beliefs in practice largely influenced by historical esoteric orders, 181 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 2: mystery traditions, paganism, witchcraft, herbalism, astrology, hermetic philosophy, and alchemy, 182 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 2: and all these things are influences. I'm not saying that 183 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 2: the actual historic manifestations of these things are the same 184 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 2: as the modern occult practices that are influenced by these things, 185 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 2: because often these can be wildly varying, especially when you 186 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 2: talk about things like witchcraft and alchemy, which have been 187 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 2: misinterpreted or reconstructed into completely new forms than what the 188 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 2: historical manifestation of them actually contained. But a lot of 189 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 2: modern day ocultism has manifested as an individually mediated spirituality 190 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 2: containing some of the group ritual or ritual aspects of 191 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 2: something like Catholicism, but with the individuality of Protestantism. Many 192 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 2: conferences have an opening ceremony and as I previously mentioned, 193 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 2: A Culture had an opening ritual. This accomplishes a very 194 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 2: similar goal to any opening ceremony, to get attendees in 195 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 2: a certain headspace, to prepare them for the rest of 196 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 2: the conference, and set a certain mood in which the 197 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 2: the rest of the events will kind of follow suit. 198 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 2: The A Culture opening ritual called upon the attendees demiurgic capacity, 199 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 2: how they are part of creating the reality of what 200 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 2: this conference is and how it will continue for the 201 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 2: next few days. Back to the panel, The framing of 202 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 2: the ritual was a blindfolded woman holding the scales of balance, 203 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 2: and each person put a intention for the week, or 204 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 2: for the conference, or for themselves into a stone, which 205 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 2: was handed out to each person who entered the ritual, 206 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 2: and at certain point these stones were placed on to 207 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 2: the scales of balance to create an equilibrium between the 208 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 2: two sides of the scale. Along with the you know, chanting, 209 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 2: meditation and a lot of incense. 210 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 3: A significant deal of incense given that we were in 211 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 3: a former German forge warehouse. The you know, billowing smoke 212 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 3: that existed throughout the conference, from fires to incense to 213 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 3: various other inflammatory items was rather impressive, but in terms 214 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 3: of actual ritual design, it met several elements that I 215 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 3: found to be rather impressive. One it was encompassing of 216 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 3: all of those elements that we would later expect to 217 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 3: see in the actual body of the conference itself. In 218 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 3: terms of like the artistic performances, the musical you know, 219 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 3: metal goth music that was played, but also a very 220 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 3: practical and open approach to ritual. It was highly inclusive. 221 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 3: Everyone who was there participated. It did an exceptional job 222 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 3: I felt of actually bringing setting intention and adding to 223 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 3: I don't know, at risk of sounding to new age, 224 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 3: the vibrations that we all felt as we engaged and 225 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 3: were present. The theatrical quality, I have to say was 226 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 3: also very much dark and spooky. Dark and spooky, but 227 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 3: something to be admired. They did a very good job. 228 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 2: Definitely one of the more high effort rituals of the 229 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: weekend in terms of the sort of aspect, with there 230 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 2: being little less than a dozen hooded cloaked figures stationed 231 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 2: at different points, either holding specific positions in a meditative 232 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 2: state for probably over half an hour, standing still in 233 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 2: a decision that would become uncomfortable and swinging incense or 234 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 2: holding torches or lights. Setting intention specifically is usually you 235 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 2: talk to these people. The first step of any kind 236 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 2: of magical working is setting your intention for what the 237 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: work is supposed to do or accomplish in you or 238 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 2: out into the world. Mirroring the opening Ritual Culture twenty 239 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 2: twenty five little booklet has a few paragraphs on the 240 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 2: concept for this conference, talking about the cosmic craftsmen as 241 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 2: the demiir to shapes matter and spirit alike embodies creation 242 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 2: and transformation, revealing both the light and the hidden, the 243 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 2: shadowed face of the divine, as well as having cosmic 244 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 2: balance and balancing instruction with creation and order and chaos 245 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: and the hidden and the scene. The last paragraph in 246 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 2: which I will read I think relates specifically to this 247 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 2: show and the cultural political aspects quote. In the age 248 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 2: of relentless acceleration, the craftsman becomes a figure of resistance. 249 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 2: His patience and ritual discipline reclaim sacred time, restoring a 250 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 2: rhythm beyond the acceleration of modern life. A Culture twenty 251 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 2: twenty five invites us to dwell in this threshold where creation, intuition, 252 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 2: and the hidden divine converge, and with that we converge 253 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 2: on an outbreak, Welcome back to the it could Happen 254 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 2: here Spooky special on the Culture Conference. The figure name 255 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 2: dropped the most throughout this conference might surprise some people, 256 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 2: because I'm assuming most do not consider him to be 257 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 2: an occultist or really a serious occult figure. The most 258 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 2: discussed individual, at least in my experience of the conference, 259 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 2: was not Alistair Crowley, John Dee, someone like Lena Blovatsky, 260 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 2: but in fact william S Burrows. And now we'll return 261 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 2: to the panel to discuss the Barosian current. Let's talk 262 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 2: about what I would argue was the strongest current throughout 263 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 2: this conference, what I'm gonna call the Burrosian current, relating 264 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 2: to writer, beat poet, and mystic and occultist in his 265 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 2: own right, william S Burrows and the magical technology that 266 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 2: he either invented or popularized in the second half of 267 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 2: the twentieth century and played a significant role in influencing 268 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 2: successor movements such as chaos magic and even the work 269 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 2: of the CCRU and Land and Fisher. The very first 270 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 2: talk that we attended was specifically on Burroughs, and Burroughs 271 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 2: ghost haunted the remainder of the conference thereafter and introduced 272 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 2: a few of the key tensions throughout the rest of 273 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 2: the conference, which we will discuss as specifically technology in AI. 274 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 3: So our first talk by Castor Obstrop, who I believe 275 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 3: was Swedish one of those. 276 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 4: He was working at the University of Copenhagen, the. 277 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 3: University of Copenhagen certainly Scandinavian of some flavor of variety, 278 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 3: focused on William S. Burrows and Brian Geyson. I think 279 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,959 Speaker 3: that it's important and I appreciated this claim on the 280 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 3: outset that they argued that both Geyson and Burroughs are 281 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 3: actually closer to the late Surrealists rather than to the 282 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 3: beat poets generation which we typically associate them with, which, 283 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 3: interestingly enough, I made both of these figures far more 284 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 3: compelling to me my understanding of them. I mean, despite 285 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 3: my familiarity with the cut up method, and you know, 286 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 3: several of the things that Burrows had written, I always 287 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,239 Speaker 3: considered them far more beat and therefore less less of 288 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 3: interest to me specifically. But this proximity to the Surrealists, 289 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 3: especially the latter Surrealists, I found particularly compelling, and I 290 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 3: think that brings us to the real focus of this 291 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 3: talk was Burrows's cut up method and another book that 292 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 3: he published on the third Mind, which gave way to 293 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 3: the latter discussions on artificial intelligence and large language models. 294 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 2: So Burrow's definitely popularized the cut up method which Guyson originated, 295 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 2: that Burrows changed its different forms of manifestations to various 296 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 2: mediums of art like the tape recorder and his own 297 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 2: writings and just words and language. And I guess the 298 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 2: reason why I think talking about this current is important 299 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: to start is also revolves around this idea of magic 300 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 2: as this form of like resistance or this like a 301 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 2: culture jamming practice which Burrows framed his own work in 302 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 2: his like a you know, work that we could could 303 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,719 Speaker 2: we could just describe as like esoteric or inspired by 304 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 2: esoterism or achieving esotericals is specifically for this cultural infusion 305 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:22,400 Speaker 2: to to disrupt mainstream culture in some capacity, to go 306 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 2: against the one God universe, sometimes in an anarchic way, 307 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 2: sometimes in a libertarian way. Some there's a mix of 308 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 2: a mix of like uh motivations that play here same 309 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 2: thing with like Robert Anton Wilson, which I'm sure you've 310 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 2: heard Robert Evans talk about before. These were contemporaries, These 311 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 2: guys were friends and operating under like similar goals of 312 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 2: disrupting culture through these techniques which which they thought literally 313 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 2: like disrupted the linear flow of culture or the mechanisms 314 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 2: of control such as like language and linear time, which 315 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 2: later gets developed on by Land and Fissure. 316 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 5: Yeah. I think looking at some of my notes, some 317 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 5: of the things that stuck out to me, especially in 318 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 5: view of the fact that the other classes going on 319 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 5: at the time began with Alistair Crowley, but we're diving 320 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 5: into a lot of more classical and historical magical traditions, 321 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 5: was that language can shape reality, which is something that 322 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 5: would also be held up by a lot of the 323 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 5: classical magical ideas that sound and image have occult power, 324 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 5: which is very true in a lot of magical traditions 325 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 5: dating back to the Piatrix and more ancient texts, and 326 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 5: that tech available at the time can be a magical instrument, 327 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 5: which the tech available currently and for William Burrows is 328 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 5: very different than classical tech, but is something that has 329 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,800 Speaker 5: been done for a very long time as well. What 330 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 5: really changes is stepping out of the idea of a 331 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 5: linear representation of it into something that could be edited, 332 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 5: cut and reprogrammed, specifically using technology that allowed that as 333 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 5: opposed to something that you're trying to control solely through 334 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 5: say more spiritual magical acts. It's something that you can 335 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 5: do with a tape recording. 336 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 2: And this is like, you know, based on forms like 337 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 2: social engineering and the manipulation of the reproduction of reality, 338 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 2: which Burrows believes a language plays a key role in, 339 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 2: even though I might disagree with him in a few 340 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 2: ways on like the nature of like a language as 341 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 2: a as a human concept versus this like alien concept 342 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 2: which it's like infected the human delta. You should explain 343 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 2: what the cut up method is. 344 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 4: Yes, well the name itself kind of is self explanatory, 345 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 4: but the idea of being essentially too thick any form 346 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 4: of texts or writing, cut up the words or pieces 347 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 4: of sentences, jumble limup in a hat or a bucket 348 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 4: or whatever, then kind of like play a jigsaw puzzle 349 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 4: with language, reshifting sentences into new ideas and new forms 350 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 4: of poetry, especially which I'm just looking at my own 351 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 4: cutups right in front of me. 352 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 2: To force like randomized combinations of words that you would 353 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 2: not choose to combine on your own volition, and seeing 354 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 2: what sort of thought that generates what kind of meaning 355 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 2: can be constructed through that combination. 356 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 5: Exactly, we're on some of the first cutups done with 357 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 5: books and just making holes, cutting out words and seeing 358 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 5: the other words that would appear underneath, and if new 359 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 5: meaning would arise through the surprise combinations. 360 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 2: Words from like the future or the past presenting themselves 361 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 2: into a current present within the book. 362 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. 363 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 4: I think one of the Borough's quotes is when you 364 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 4: cut into the present, the future leaks out, which. 365 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 3: Is related to the concept of time sorcery that was 366 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 3: talked about towards the end of that discussion. I think 367 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 3: another element to the cutup mesas that's important, especially as 368 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 3: it was framed in this a culture context is as 369 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 3: the we quoted from the or as I wrote this 370 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 3: quote down from the actual lecture itself, reality is made 371 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 3: of words, images and vibrations, and sounds and images have 372 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 3: occult power, and therefore these sounds and images and words 373 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 3: can be marshaled or used, edited, cut through, rearranged for 374 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 3: the purposes of reprogramming. It's fascinating. I think that this 375 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 3: really is something that carries through to the whole conference, 376 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 3: and not just the Burrow's method, but what this Burrow's 377 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 3: method or the Barossian current of the conference. It seems 378 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,479 Speaker 3: that there was a problematic I mean, we started basically 379 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 3: with dari Da and we ended with dari Da with 380 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 3: discussions of like critiques of the master narrative that we 381 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 3: get from you know, Deluze and Leotard and Baudriard and 382 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 3: these people. But the goal of this method was to 383 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 3: rewrite the master narrative. So again back to that concept 384 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 3: of culture jamming. As Gerre said, this concept of the 385 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 3: one God universe, this cut up method is meant to 386 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 3: interrupt the linearity of words of language, that is a 387 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 3: process of control. So I take issue with this concept 388 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 3: of language as a virus because that implies that it's 389 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 3: a foreign body, and I mean it's true post structuralists. 390 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 3: I guess that I am. There is no outside to language, 391 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 3: and I think that that's actually something that shines through 392 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 3: in this third mind concept. 393 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 2: As two people work together on something, there's a composite 394 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 2: mind that like emerges and affects the work. Is the 395 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 2: concept there. 396 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 3: So when two people collaborate, a third mind or intelligence 397 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 3: communicates with you through the revelation of the new that 398 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 3: was already present. And I think that that's really important 399 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 3: to point out because it's it's not as though there's 400 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 3: this this outside thing. The implication is from this method 401 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 3: is that the new reveals itself through this process that's 402 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 3: already present in language. Because this is a question that 403 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 3: I had throughout, is that if if language is this 404 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 3: foreign entity that dominates us through control, and the method 405 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 3: itself is language, then how are we not just re 406 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 3: I mean, I guess it's a kind of inoculation if 407 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 3: we have a you know, a theory of language that 408 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 3: is based in you know, what what do we call this? 409 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 3: What is it that we all just got during COVID 410 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 3: Kevin fever? No, No, the things that we inject into 411 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 3: our body that created the INDI vaccines. There we go. 412 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 3: That's the ticket inoculations. 413 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 2: Not all, not all of us got vaccines. 414 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 4: Okay, care. 415 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 3: You heard it here first vaccine did not know where 416 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 3: was it going with this? Okay? 417 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 2: Speaking of methods of speaking of methods of control. 418 00:27:58,840 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 5: I mean a lot of it. 419 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 3: The new just came out there. Wait just one moment, Sorry, Elane, 420 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 3: I likened this to this process of dialectics. But that's 421 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 3: because I couldn't shut up about Hegel the entire time. 422 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 3: We were there because I don't think enough occultists are 423 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 3: talking about Hegel. Why is no one talking about Hegel? 424 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 3: Everyone should be talking about Hegel. 425 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 2: I mean, as fun as it is to think about this, 426 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 2: like third mind as like an egg grigor figure, which 427 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,439 Speaker 2: we've we've mentioned before, is like it's like a group 428 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,719 Speaker 2: thought form, like a being or a force that is 429 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 2: generated through through multiple people believing in it. 430 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 4: You make up an imaginary friend in a way. 431 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 2: That's what a severtre but true in a grigora is 432 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 2: as a is, yeah, a form of thought that they 433 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 2: gained its own, like an autonomy, and becomes kind of 434 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 2: like a like a little tiny god. 435 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 3: I guess. 436 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 2: Or they also combined the third mind idea to like 437 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 2: net work consciousness. The one last thing I will say 438 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 2: on this before we get to the AI aspect, I guess. 439 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 2: On this culture jamming nonlinearity is the concept of the 440 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 2: circuit jump, which was playing back words from politicians in 441 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 2: different contexts as a sort of like a Uno Reverso 442 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 2: psychic attack, which I don't know if that actually works 443 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 2: considering the current's political situation, but this is certainly a 444 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 2: tactic to which I have employed many such cases and 445 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 2: we see a lot of people attempt attempt to do this, 446 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 2: and I think there are certain figures who have their 447 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 2: own very strong magical force field protecting them, which has 448 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 2: been pretty evident through the past ten years, including the 449 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 2: President of the United States. But as a as a 450 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 2: circuit jump is playing something from the wrong the wrong 451 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 2: time in a different context as as a form of attack. 452 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 2: The most famous version of this, which isn't necessarily for 453 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 2: political ends, so this was for personal ends. It's the 454 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 2: Burroughs cafe incident, which I've been a fan of for years, 455 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 2: in which he was slighted by a cafe so then 456 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 2: he started recording. 457 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 5: All that happened was they changed their menu and he 458 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 5: couldn't order the one food that he ordered every day. 459 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 2: There's been some menus that have changed that I would 460 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 2: continue using this tactic where he recorded sounds from from 461 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 2: outside of like people talking or arguing or walking by 462 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 2: or plates dropping, and then played them back outside of 463 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 2: the cafe for a series of months until the cafe closed. 464 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 2: And this is like the funniest, the funniest form of 465 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 2: this sort of magical obsession, because this really is just 466 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 2: a crazy guy playing loud sounds in front of a 467 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 2: cafe until they close. I mean it worked of yeah, 468 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 2: playing back sounds of you know, arguing, fighting, plates smashing, 469 00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 2: which would probably create a negative aura around around in 470 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 2: this building. But that is the most most funny of Burrows, 471 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 2: the circum jump moment. Although I mean Burrough's life is 472 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 2: full of these humorous and sometimes worrying of anecdotes. 473 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 5: There's one other thing that stuck out to me, given 474 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 5: what a lot of the other talks in that space 475 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 5: ended up dealing with, along with AI and stuff, was 476 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 5: really the speaker talking a lot about the fact that 477 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 5: for Burros and Geyson, the reproduction of reality is how 478 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 5: control occurs, and so the goal was to manipulate the 479 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 5: reproduction of reality, because if you can manipulate the reproduction 480 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 5: of reality, you are also manipulating reality itself, which I 481 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 5: don't think anyone went into nearly as much, but is 482 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 5: something that we're seeing with say even the Republican Party 483 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 5: releasing deep fake videos of Democratic politicians. 484 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is something our materialist friend me does 485 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 2: talk about, is how there's a quote from some neo 486 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 2: cons about how how like democrats just have to kind 487 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 2: of like you know, like react to reality versus the 488 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 2: Republicans who generate it and they like decide what reality is. 489 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 2: And you can see this with all of the sort 490 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 2: of like moral moral panics which have spread across the 491 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 2: United States and around the world the past few years, 492 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 2: whether that's gender ideology, whether it's immigration, whether that's this 493 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 2: non existent crime wave where it is a genuine like 494 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 2: creation of of reality. And then this this this goes 495 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 2: into you know, the Burrows ideas later get developed by 496 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 2: a group of academics and occultists that formed the c 497 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 2: c R. You this included say plant Nick Land who 498 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 2: then turned to the dark side and uh the since 499 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 2: past Mark Fisher, who put a name to some of 500 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 2: this sort of phenomenon called the hyperstition, which is Robert 501 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 2: has talked about before in the show. But it is 502 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 2: it is a self fulfilling prophecy. It is a fiction 503 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 2: that becomes true through the creation of the fiction and 504 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 2: the dissemination of the fiction. And this is part of 505 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 2: how reality can get formed, is through these falsehoods that 506 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 2: that through through repetition and dissemination, become self manifest. 507 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 4: The thing about that, though, is that the high perscisional 508 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 4: model itself requires to the acceptance of the idea that 509 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 4: everything is a fiction? 510 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 3: Yes, like well, yeah. 511 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 2: A lot of most things go through a process like this, yes, yes, yes, 512 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 2: but doing doing such a thing like intentionally and like offensively? Right? 513 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 2: Which is which is the idea that we're discussing here 514 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 2: in like a political context? Is this this this offensive 515 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 2: reality formation where you literally decide what is real and 516 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 2: like what isn't And you know, if you have hundreds 517 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 2: of millions dollars in like a news company at your disposal, 518 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 2: this can become easier. 519 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 5: Are you saying that media companies are currently cutting up 520 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 5: reality to shape it in the image of the people 521 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 5: who fund them. 522 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean they are. They are much It's 523 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 2: it's funny because like occultists, I think, are the people 524 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 2: who are often. 525 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 5: The clips are you going to use from the conference? 526 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 2: And I will later in my written work, But I 527 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 2: think on that note, I think occultists are a class 528 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 2: of people who are maybe the worst at doing magic, 529 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 2: because the people that are really good at this sort 530 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,720 Speaker 2: of thing are perhaps way better at the occult element 531 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 2: of hiding their their you know, awareness of what they 532 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 2: are doing, because they a lot of a lot of 533 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,839 Speaker 2: them know what they're doing that you just actually keep 534 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,439 Speaker 2: it a more cultic whereas the magicians will not shut 535 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 2: the fuck up because there's always a there's always a 536 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:41,919 Speaker 2: new book to sell. 537 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,240 Speaker 3: That was an excellent segue to an ad break Lane. 538 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 3: Thank you for that, and now a word from our 539 00:34:46,920 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 3: sponsors on this note, though, Gary with you completely as 540 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 3: a former academic and just a healthy level of skepticism 541 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,240 Speaker 3: going into any magical conference. I sat down, I listened, 542 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,400 Speaker 3: and I've been to enough conferences listening to magicians attempt 543 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 3: to map on rather poorly magic onto a cultural figure, 544 00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 3: and I think Burrows is really unique here. But my 545 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 3: academic pretense was to sit here and to listen and 546 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 3: think about, you know, language as a pharmicon, think about 547 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 3: dry Da, Delouze, Baudrard, Leotard when they're discussing the master 548 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 3: narrative or rewriting the master narrative. But what's unique about 549 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 3: Burrows and why I gave up that, you know, academic 550 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 3: mapping of philosophy and asking myself, why are we having 551 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 3: this conversation. We could just go read these texts. They 552 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 3: talk about similar things. But the point is is that 553 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,959 Speaker 3: those texts talk about similar things. And what's unique about 554 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 3: Burrows is that he's actually doing the doer. He's a doer. 555 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 3: This is fundamentally the difference between the vida activa and 556 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 3: the vita contempt of taiva. Like I'm thinking in terms 557 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 3: of philosophers, and it took me half of this talk 558 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 3: to be like, no, he's actually doing shit as soon 559 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 3: as we get out to like, you know, him actually 560 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 3: standing out in front of the cafe and doing this. 561 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 3: He's not just developing a method, but by virtue of 562 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,320 Speaker 3: the fact that he's inviting other artists, like the slides 563 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 3: upon slides that we saw of him, you know, working 564 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 3: with new machines that he was creating and trying these things. 565 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 3: He was actively involved in this practice, which again makes 566 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 3: him far more magical than most occultists. Don't come for 567 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 3: me absolutely. 568 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 2: AI specifically be discussing debates and uses of generative AI 569 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 2: in this conference because the last A Culture conference was 570 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three, as these large language models and 571 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 2: image generation platforms were just just starting to gain popularity 572 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,280 Speaker 2: and now they have a stranglehold over at the stock 573 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 2: market and many people's imagination. The first I guess real 574 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 2: debate around AI happened as the three of you stayed 575 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 2: to listen to a panel after the Willly mess Burroughs panel, 576 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 2: as well as a Austin Osman Spare panel, a proto 577 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 2: cast magician from the twentieth century. It was a contemporary 578 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 2: of Alistair Crowley. I left to go listen to a 579 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 2: mathematical thelemic ontology talk, which was probably less interesting than 580 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 2: the panel. I'd like to hear you guys talk about 581 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 2: the debates around AI and how they emerged in this panel, 582 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 2: and then also juxtassing that to the different forms of 583 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 2: like AI in discussions are an AI that dominated a large 584 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 2: part of the rest of the conference. 585 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 5: Well, actually AI came up because the initial discussion question 586 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 5: for the panel was what does it mean to talk 587 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,800 Speaker 5: about art as magic in the digital era? So everyone 588 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 5: was very specifically being asked to discuss the differences between 589 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 5: the creation process is magic when you can use AI, 590 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 5: when you can use large language models to just generate things, 591 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 5: and if the generative method using AI I was at 592 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,800 Speaker 5: all related to say, the cut up method or other things. 593 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 5: So that was the initial conversation that began that whole panel. 594 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 3: Well, and that was certainly a topic that was begged 595 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,240 Speaker 3: by the other two talks that we didn't really discuss 596 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 3: the Austin Osmond spare was about automatic drawing. So this 597 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:27,320 Speaker 3: conception and of you know, this drawing that is coming 598 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,880 Speaker 3: from the outside, coming from the subconscious, coming from within, 599 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 3: with all within one line. But more than that, it 600 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 3: was a very traditional kind of European nineteen seventies lecture. 601 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:41,280 Speaker 3: You know, you had a lovely Italian man who stood 602 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 3: in the front that was ready to smoke a cigarette 603 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 3: while trying to get through, you know, a very well formulated, 604 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 3: well argued essay, while a series of images presented to 605 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 3: us behind him that covered an overview of artists that 606 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,360 Speaker 3: are doing very similar things. He argued, exist in a 607 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 3: similar kind of vein and the occurrences of not just 608 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 3: magical tropes, but cultural influences that happen independently, so artists 609 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,360 Speaker 3: all over the world. The third talk by I believe 610 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 3: Kate Lady. Yeah, the ritual transformation and hybridity in Leonora 611 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,279 Speaker 3: Carrington's Judith, which was a stage production which happened in 612 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 3: Mexico City, I believe, So we had a few pictures 613 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 3: of this, but Leonora Carrington's art very specifically has to 614 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 3: do with this like hybrid of like animals and mythical 615 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 3: figures and creatures, and the stage production was incredibly intense. 616 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,280 Speaker 3: I really appreciated this talk a lot. But then focus 617 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 3: on talking about, you know, generative artificial intelligence in these 618 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 3: large language models and the role of art or what 619 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 3: it means to do art in this era was related 620 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,760 Speaker 3: to this idea of the third mind, of automatic drawing, 621 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 3: of this concept of hybridity, of this like transformative or 622 00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 3: this discovering of the new through a synth putting together 623 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:07,839 Speaker 3: of different elements or images, words, sounds, costume ry, these 624 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:09,760 Speaker 3: kinds of things, So that it was a natural question 625 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 3: to lead, but the audience members took it in a 626 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 3: very strange direction that I would like you all to 627 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 3: talk about. 628 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 5: I mean, the initial question was really that people started 629 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 5: asking after the panel topic was proposed, was so, what 630 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,320 Speaker 5: did the panelists think about AI art? Do the panelists 631 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 5: think AI art is magic? Do the panelists think that 632 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 5: AI art is channeling? Do the panelists think that, you know, 633 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 5: putting a prompt in a language model is the same 634 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 5: as doing some sort of trans state automatic writing. There 635 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 5: was a lot of variations on functionally that all of 636 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 5: the panelists reaction was no, it's not and a lot 637 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 5: of them did not immediately really want to even dive 638 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,280 Speaker 5: into that topic and were very annoyed at the question. 639 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 3: That's actually not true, because I got triggered almost immediately 640 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,440 Speaker 3: because it was our first speaker that responded not to 641 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 3: that first question, but to the second question. And the 642 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,799 Speaker 3: second question had to do with the role of technology 643 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 3: and whether we see that there's a possibility for these tools, 644 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,480 Speaker 3: you know, as a technology a techne in magical practice. 645 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 3: And our first speaker's reaction was to sit back and 646 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,839 Speaker 3: give us a tentative yes to. 647 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:27,320 Speaker 5: The tech, to the tech. 648 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 3: That's correct. 649 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 5: To AI, they were like, their initial reaction was still 650 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 5: also no, but. 651 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 3: Yes they they indeed got there, but it was unclear 652 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 3: at first, and I was a little raw about it, 653 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,360 Speaker 3: given that seemed completely contrary to the talk that you 654 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,480 Speaker 3: know that he had mentioned before. There was a question 655 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 3: about NFTs. Do you remember this question? 656 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 5: Oh, I tried to put it immediately out of my head. Yes, 657 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,279 Speaker 5: that was the fact that it started with, like, well, 658 00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 5: NFTs failed because people like weren't ready to embrace the 659 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:06,240 Speaker 5: blockchain as a generative idea for making art, as opposed 660 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,760 Speaker 5: to the fact that why would I own an NFT 661 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,400 Speaker 5: if I can screenshot the picture. 662 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it was this idea that like NFTs themselves 663 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 3: were part of this breaking up of the control process, 664 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:23,239 Speaker 3: the linearity of money and financial systems, that somehow it 665 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,759 Speaker 3: was related to the cut up method. It was one 666 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 3: of those questions that was a narrative before it finally 667 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,240 Speaker 3: got to your question that really just invited the readers 668 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,319 Speaker 3: to respond. There were others that talked about this too 669 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 3: and related their own personal experience to the generative AI 670 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 3: process that you know, they approach AI not with the 671 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 3: expectation that will provide sense, but it'll almost have this 672 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,880 Speaker 3: oracular or again this they related to the third mind. 673 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,919 Speaker 3: They this idea that again you and the AI come 674 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 3: together and somehow reveal the new which I at this 675 00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 3: point was absolutely seething. 676 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,319 Speaker 5: Yeah. I think the closest actually that we had to 677 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,440 Speaker 5: some really like someone even trying to approach it was 678 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 5: asking about, if you're making this art, if you're generating 679 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 5: these new things, does it matter that corporations are controlling 680 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,439 Speaker 5: the algorithm by which you're doing so, Which started to 681 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,760 Speaker 5: touch on some of the problems, but still was definitely 682 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 5: relying on the base assumption that using a large language 683 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,799 Speaker 5: model to produce stories or art that you're interacting with 684 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,279 Speaker 5: something else that's actually capable of creating it all. 685 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,239 Speaker 3: And to her credit, my girl Kate Lady, who was 686 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,880 Speaker 3: talking about Leonora Carrington, the one that seemed to be 687 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,320 Speaker 3: kind of tangentially separate from the other two, but the 688 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 3: hybridity really made it was the one that just gave 689 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,319 Speaker 3: us a great straight Marxist answer of like, no, this 690 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,359 Speaker 3: is bullshit. Let's actually look at the material implications as 691 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 3: to where this is coming from and the environmental costs 692 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 3: of running these programs of server farms, the destruction of 693 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:03,960 Speaker 3: space of you know, livable areas throughout the United States. 694 00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,279 Speaker 3: That these are questions that we need to ask and 695 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 3: are not separate from these questions of magic. So really 696 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 3: shout out to her. I appreciated that response because it 697 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,600 Speaker 3: was instant, and it was it was heated. 698 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,760 Speaker 4: It is also, like I mean, from from my perspective, 699 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 4: it's also a labor is she write because these large 700 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:26,239 Speaker 4: language models and generative AI just scrape like so much 701 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,520 Speaker 4: data that that's like writing from real artists and create 702 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:35,319 Speaker 4: created by real like painters and whatever. And it is 703 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:43,200 Speaker 4: the appropriation of human labor. To shout out some advertising 704 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,920 Speaker 4: essentially that is like my main well, aside from all 705 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,960 Speaker 4: the ecological and the political issues with it, it's like 706 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,360 Speaker 4: very much that labor angle to it that frustrates me. 707 00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,360 Speaker 3: Well, in the context of the talk, it's really important 708 00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 3: to the ground. And this is the comment that I 709 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,239 Speaker 3: made that the panel broadly seemed to agree with, although 710 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,800 Speaker 3: I didn't really leave them much opportunity to disagree with me. 711 00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 3: You're right, thank you. Go on. So this burrows concept 712 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,399 Speaker 3: of the third mind this book that he wrote, right, 713 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:22,560 Speaker 3: when two minds collaborate, a third mind or intelligence communicates 714 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:28,120 Speaker 3: with you, again, not about creating the new, but about 715 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:32,719 Speaker 3: revealing itself in what was already present. Yes, but the 716 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,960 Speaker 3: idea is that you have to have two minds in 717 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:41,440 Speaker 3: order to get this dialectical third mind that was inherent 718 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,000 Speaker 3: in the conditions, the situation, the language of the two. 719 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 3: When one interacts with any form of large language model 720 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,440 Speaker 3: or chat GBT, I in my mind and with what 721 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,840 Speaker 3: I carry sit in front of a computer and type 722 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:03,239 Speaker 3: my input. That's one mind. Can you tell me where 723 00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:04,000 Speaker 3: the second is? 724 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,880 Speaker 5: Because even if you're cutting up a book, there's a 725 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:10,960 Speaker 5: mind in the book. There's a story, there's an actual 726 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,680 Speaker 5: thing there. There's a thing that you are interacting with 727 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:18,200 Speaker 5: that were thoughts that were produced by someone that you 728 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:23,040 Speaker 5: are cutting up. You are not just scraping the toilet 729 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 5: bowl of human production. 730 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,520 Speaker 3: But even if we're going to be generous and say 731 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,319 Speaker 3: that these large language models are the ones that are 732 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,040 Speaker 3: doing the cut up process and you are secondary or 733 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,960 Speaker 3: tertiary or even further down the line to it, I mean, 734 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:42,000 Speaker 3: it doesn't involve a human intelligence at that point. So 735 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,960 Speaker 3: just in terms of the you know, the Barosian current, 736 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:51,280 Speaker 3: it's just not a third mind. It's the material conditions 737 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,399 Speaker 3: are such that it is not and cannot be a 738 00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 3: third mind. 739 00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,120 Speaker 2: Where I would like to take this discussion is actually 740 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 2: the very next talk that I attended was part of 741 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,200 Speaker 2: a three talk series called the Politics of Taro, and 742 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,799 Speaker 2: the specific one that I think continued on this line 743 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,879 Speaker 2: of thought and even stuff like automatic writing was from 744 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 2: Icon to Index by Thomas Leak the Generative Logic of Taro, 745 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,600 Speaker 2: in which he discussed I will have to check his 746 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,920 Speaker 2: name later, but discussed an author in the eighties who 747 00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,560 Speaker 2: was trying to use Taro as a way to remove 748 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,600 Speaker 2: the human element of writing, try to create an automatic 749 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:35,239 Speaker 2: story using the Tarot archetypes assembled in a randomized shuffling 750 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:39,080 Speaker 2: to generate a story based on the linkages between each 751 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 2: of the cards and remove his own agency and directing 752 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,520 Speaker 2: where the story goes except for trying to bridge each 753 00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:52,479 Speaker 2: card one to another. And the presenter was discussing if 754 00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:56,640 Speaker 2: this bears any similarity to like generative text models. The 755 00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,840 Speaker 2: presenter said no. The presenter said, this actually is not 756 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:07,000 Speaker 2: like llms, which purely operate on a people pleasing probabilistic 757 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:11,560 Speaker 2: capacity to follow one word after another in accordance with 758 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,520 Speaker 2: whatever the prompt of the person who's operating the AI 759 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,440 Speaker 2: wants it to generate. Though the presenter stated that this 760 00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,920 Speaker 2: author who was using Tarot probably would have loved using 761 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,880 Speaker 2: an LLM to try to accomplish this goal of his 762 00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:27,160 Speaker 2: trying to access. Kind of like a form of automatic 763 00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:30,480 Speaker 2: writing similar to Mike Astn Honsman's Beare, but without human input. 764 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:33,279 Speaker 2: The shuffling of the cards and forcing the human brain 765 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,440 Speaker 2: to make connections between these archetypes still contains a creative 766 00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,920 Speaker 2: human process based on randomness in the shuffling of the 767 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:46,760 Speaker 2: deck versus the people pleasing probabilistic generative text that lms produce. 768 00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:54,200 Speaker 2: This concludes the first episode of My Culture twenty twenty 769 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:58,440 Speaker 2: five coverage, in part to releasing Sunday Night. The panel 770 00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:04,440 Speaker 2: will discuss digital technomancy, traditional magical practice, and why people 771 00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:09,040 Speaker 2: are doing accult practice in twenty twenty five. See you 772 00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:11,000 Speaker 2: on the other side. 773 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,600 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 774 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,840 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 775 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,480 Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 776 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,560 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever. 777 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:23,440 Speaker 2: You listen to podcasts. 778 00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:25,799 Speaker 1: You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here, 779 00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:28,760 Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.