1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Donald Trump's transition team has refused 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: to sign the normal ethics forms. We have such a 5 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: great show for you today the Lincoln Project Zone. Rick 6 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: Wilson talks to us about the impending disaster of the 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: next Trump administration. Then we will talk to Zucked author 8 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: and my friend Roger mcnamie about how tech is going 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: to eat us all. But first the news. 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 2: So, Molly, I for one really enjoy you think about 11 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 2: our jobs that we get to work from home. Unfortunately, 12 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 2: our friends who are federal employees are not going to 13 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 2: enjoy that anymore. What are you seeing here? 14 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: I have a lot of very naughty things to say 15 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: about Elin and Vivek and their very stupid fake government entity, 16 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: But I actually don't think this is that bad. But 17 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: they have called for government employees, federal employees to return 18 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: to five days a week in the office work weeks. 19 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: I mean, these guys are going to do some bad stuff, Okay, 20 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: some real bad stuff, some real bad stuff, and we 21 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: know that because they're tweeting about it, saying things like 22 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: we're going to have to tighten our belts and suffer 23 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: in order to balance the budget and get us all 24 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: a tax cut. But this, I think is not so bad. 25 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: But they do want federal employees in the office five 26 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 1: days a week. But hidden under that headline, I think, 27 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: and I think the real part of this that we 28 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: should talk about is that they did write an op 29 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: out in the Wall Street Journal this week. The two 30 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: of them and Wright is doing some heavy lifting, because 31 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: I have a feeling that neither of them wrote it. 32 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: And you'll remember the Wall Street Journal opinion section is 33 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: kind of very, very very right way. President Trump has 34 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: asked the two of us to lead a newly formed 35 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: Department of Government Efficiency or DOGE, because we love the 36 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: memes to get the federal government down to size. The 37 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: entrenched and evergrowing bureaucracy represents an existent threat to our republic. 38 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how that works, and politicians have abetted 39 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: it for too long. That's why we are doing it differently. 40 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: We are entrepreneurs, not politicians, entrepreneurs who got rich on 41 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: government subsidies, but who's counting. We will serve as outside volunteers, 42 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: not federal officials or employees. Unlike government commissions or advisory councils. 43 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: We won't just write reports or cut ribbons, will cut costs. 44 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: You want to bet me a million dollars they just 45 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: write reports and cut ribbons. 46 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: I'm not taking that bet. 47 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: All right? Are they going to write a lot of reports? 48 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: Some beliegue or staffer who's also a quote unquote volunteer 49 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 1: is going to write a lot of reports. 50 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 2: But Malli, they're going to have a podcast too, Oh, 51 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 2: I would hope. So Pete Hegsath one of Trump's many, 52 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,959 Speaker 2: many amazing Best People nominees. He has some questionable views 53 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 2: about women in the military. And I'm going to shock 54 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: you here. They're not really rooted in fact. What are 55 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: you seeing here? 56 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: So Pete Hegsas has said about women in the military. 57 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 2: He said, the standards have been Lord, I'm straight up 58 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 2: saying we should not have women in combat roles. 59 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: So Pete Hagsas said that. And you'll remember he is 60 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: a weekend television host. Not that there's anything wrong with 61 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: the weekend cable news on Fox again Donald Trump is 62 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: You'll remember he does love a television host because he 63 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 1: feels they are the most serious of people to serve 64 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: in administrations. Whatever Anyway, The point here is Pete Hagsas 65 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: said that women have a lower standard. There is volumeous 66 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: evidence to show that that isn't true. And when he 67 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: goes for his congressional hearing, if he gets that far, 68 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: he will sit across from Tammy Duckworth, the senator from 69 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: Illinois who lost both her legs in battle. So we 70 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: shall see how he can make that case against women 71 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: in the military to a woman who has given everything. Jesse, 72 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: Let's talk about Donald trump favorite boogeyman. 73 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 2: I've noticed something with his nominations. There's two things in common. 74 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 2: A lot of sexual abuse allegations and a lot of 75 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 2: people who have weird stories with doctors. Yes, what are 76 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: you seeing here? 77 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: They really really really hate woke, right, whatever woke is, 78 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: and they're really obsessed with diversity, equity, and inclusion. Let's 79 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: just talk about the second. They hate diversity, equity and inclusion. Okay, 80 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: they hate a thing that is probably like diversity. They 81 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: hate diversity. Imagine hating diversity. They hate equity, imagine hating equity, 82 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: They hate inclusion including something anyway, So they hate DEI 83 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: and Donald Trump has said that on day one, day one, 84 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: he is going to end Dei and a key figure 85 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: in Trump's anti Dei agenda is the son of immigrants, 86 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,840 Speaker 1: Steven Miller, who grew up in Santa Monica, and he 87 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: is white and Jewish, not entirely the same thing. He 88 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: is Jewish, just like I'm Jewish. And he feels that 89 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: people who are black have had too many advantages, and 90 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: so he is hoping to rollback workplace protections for Black 91 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: Americans to a degree not seen since the end of Reconstruction, 92 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: which ushered in Jim Crow. Jim Crow, which was in 93 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: some ways used as a framework for someone who many 94 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 1: people in Donald Trump's cabinet have compared Donald Trump to 95 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: Adolf Hitler. We will see what happens here. It's super 96 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: upsetting to watch people get their rights taken away. But 97 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: the American voters did this, so good luck to everyone. 98 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 2: Somali. We should also talk about what the signals of 99 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 2: this cabinet and this administration or saidek, what do you see? 100 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 1: They are sending signals, and the signals are that me 101 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: too is no longer. This is a really interesting piece 102 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: by Jill Philipovich about how it is the Donald Trump's 103 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: sexual cabinet. Trump's second term is shaping up to platform 104 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: even more men who have been incredibly abusive sexual assault 105 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: and harassment. You've got Matt Gates who's now out, who 106 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: has now dropped out and is now spending his time 107 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: doing cameos, which we're not advertising his cameos, We're just 108 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: saying that's true. You've got Pete Hagsith. You've got the 109 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: sexual abuse issues, the lawsuit that has focused on the WWE, 110 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: which is co owned by Linda McMahon, and she was 111 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: actually named in one of these lawsuits. Here, there and everywhere. 112 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 1: RFK Junior has numerous allegations of all sorts of stuff 113 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: that's not okay. Look, they're normalizing what Trump considers to 114 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: be normal, and none of us should be surprised by 115 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: any of this. 116 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 2: Strong a grief. 117 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: Rick Wilson is the founder of the Lincoln Project and 118 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: the host of the Enemy's List. 119 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 3: Rick Wilson, Mollie john Fast, Welcome to Thanksgiving Week. 120 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: It's Sunday, so we must be podcasting. I want to 121 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: air the petty grievances. Nextgiving makes me know it's time 122 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: to air the petty grievances. 123 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 3: Wish those grievances out and get to it all right. 124 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: So my pettiest grievance is that I wrote this whole 125 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: I think very smart essay. If I do say so myself, 126 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: which I do. 127 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 3: Which I retreated or re exed or whatever the right it's. 128 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: Called yes, yes to all the bots and elon about 129 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: how I was wrong about some fundamental premises about the 130 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: twenty twenty for election. Right, I thought, oh, this will 131 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: be followed by a plethora of other people going on 132 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: about how they were wrong about the twenty twenty four election. 133 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: You know what I found. I was greeted with no 134 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: one else. 135 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 3: You know what. Let me just say this. There is 136 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 3: a degree of post election duchiness that manifests itself across 137 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 3: four or five different axes and domains. Number one is 138 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 3: the sorest winner syndrome, with every mob out there, Right. 139 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: They won, but they're still not happy. 140 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 3: Right, this election is all about free speech? Shut up liberal. Yeah, 141 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 3: that's a big set. I have a fraction of progressives 142 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 3: who are like, if only we had declared we would 143 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 3: seize the means of production, we would have won. 144 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: But they are not nearly as of notch as. Oh god, no, 145 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: tell me the other groups you think. 146 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 3: There's also some practical types who are like, oh, if 147 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 3: only we'd done more of this or that mechanical thing, 148 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 3: and it's always the mechanical thing their group does best. Right, 149 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 3: only we've gone out for more turnout among dog owners. 150 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: Okay, right, right, But. 151 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 3: The entire the entire post election. 152 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: Wait, we're not going to mention the never trumpers here. 153 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 3: I love We're getting it, We're getting to it, We're 154 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 3: getting to it. But the whole dream that is dead. 155 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 3: That Look, I will say this, I'll take some creditae. 156 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 3: I'm an early adopter of abandoning the full Republican thing 157 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 3: because it was never coming back. I said it in 158 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 3: twenty eighteen. It was never coming back. But there were 159 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 3: a lot of people who were hopeful that, you know, 160 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 3: we would be able to motivate a larger number, and 161 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 3: we got about we got a little more than we 162 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 3: did last time, but it wasn't enough to offset all 163 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 3: the new people he's brought into the Republican Party, most 164 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 3: of whom you know, are are not shall we say, 165 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 3: folks deeply read in Burke Kirk, Buckley, et cetera, and 166 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 3: are instead like I want to kill all them pedophiles 167 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 3: and send them Mexicans back. That's their Republican Party. So 168 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 3: the idea that we could somehow and that's two degree 169 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,959 Speaker 3: groups like ours, like Sarah Longwells, like other folks. It's 170 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 3: a dead issue now, and you got to get over 171 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 3: wanting to have the Republican Party back now. And again, 172 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 3: I've been a very early adopter on that for a 173 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 3: very long time, Like not long after the first my 174 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 3: first book came out. I was like, Oh, it's not 175 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 3: going to work. We're not getting that party back. But 176 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 3: people who wanted that party back it's gone now. 177 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: I want to also point out, and again I actually 178 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: thought that the Liz Cheney thing was smart, but actually 179 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: it turns out that it may have hurt her with 180 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: the base. Did you see this data for Pride Progress polling. 181 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 3: I haven't seen it. 182 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: No, So Data for Progress is not without its foibles 183 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 1: and without it's you know, it is left leaning. And 184 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,199 Speaker 1: what might want to get to. 185 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 3: This if by leaning you mean so far it's practically perpendicular, 186 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 3: but yes, go on, whatever it is. 187 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: It's left leaning, and that makes you a little bit upset. 188 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: But among Pennsylvania and Michigan, independence, messages about Harris's economic 189 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: platform perform better than messages touting her support from former 190 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: Republican congress women. 191 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 3: Well, of course, this is like saying would you like 192 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 3: the would you like the cuttlefish or the vanilla paste? 193 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: Which one do you want? Because I don't want either 194 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: of those vanilla paste. 195 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 3: It's a self park joke. It's a self park centipede joke. 196 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 3: What I'm saying here is that is one of those 197 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 3: logical constructs that isn't really the point. You can have 198 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 3: things simultaneously in politics. You could appeal to more moderate 199 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 3: conservative voters while having a strong economic policy. And so 200 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 3: the vast majority of her ad load, of her communications load, 201 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 3: was not about Liz Cheney or Republicans. The vast majority, 202 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 3: I would say, probably back of the envelope, somewhere around 203 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 3: a five percent of it was about a better deal 204 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 3: for Americans, fair deal for Americans, you know, the child 205 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 3: tax credit, all the things that she was rightly I 206 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,719 Speaker 3: thought emphasizing in her campaign. There are a lot of 207 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 3: progressives right now who are done to desperately try to say, well, 208 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 3: what we really didn't get was enough progressive progressivism in 209 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 3: a progressive country. But in case anybody missed the fucking notes, 210 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 3: this is not a progressive country. Look it wasn't even 211 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 3: as progressive as I modeled. 212 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 1: Okay, explain this again. 213 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 3: This country is very much center right, right, Maybe I 214 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 3: have to go with the data, and the data tells 215 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 3: me very clearly that the country was not moved with 216 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 3: sufficient numbers by the core messaging that people had hoped. 217 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 3: It wasn't moved any degree. You know, we had we 218 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 3: had a bunch of states that voted for pro choice 219 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 3: amendments and still elected Donald Trump. That looked like the 220 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 3: killer app and everybody's pulling mine and everybody else's and 221 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 3: it wasn't. It wasn't. The economic pain argument was one 222 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 3: that was that was more easily dismissed by folks on 223 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 3: the left and the center. We were like, okay, yeah, 224 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 3: the economy's fine, it's getting better. It was bad for 225 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 3: a while, it's back, but it wasn't in the minds 226 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 3: of the voters that came out. And remember, he activated 227 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 3: less likely voters at a level that no one could 228 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 3: have anticipated. 229 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: No, no, I know. And he did the same thing 230 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: he did in twenty sixteen and in twenty twenty, and 231 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: we kept under astrmating him. But I just want to 232 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: point out economic populism technically should be the base of 233 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: the Democratic Party. 234 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 3: Well, here's the problem the Democratic Party to and for 235 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 3: a ton of reasons, not not related to the campaign, 236 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 3: but to the culture and to the disinformation matrix that's 237 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 3: out there and to Fox everything else. What the country 238 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 3: hears when they hear democratic economic policy, they hear one message, 239 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 3: which is smart guys will tell you how to live. 240 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 3: Welcome to communism. That's what they hear from Fox every day. 241 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 3: It's not true, it's not true, but it's what they 242 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 3: hear over and over and over and over again. Donald 243 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 3: Trump says, I'm going to fuck people who you hate, 244 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:18,959 Speaker 3: and I'm going to throw the Mexicans out, and I'm 245 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 3: gonna screw the Chinese over. None of it's true. None 246 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 3: of it will work. It will be an economic disaster 247 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 3: and a moral disaster. But we have to admit to 248 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 3: ourselves that the country is not what we think it 249 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 3: is or want it to be. A lot of the time, 250 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 3: this country is not as good as we hoped it 251 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 3: was on a lot of fronts. And I hate saying that. 252 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: Again. Here's my hottest take. I don't agree. First of all, 253 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people just felt that he 254 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: spoke to them and they liked him, and they didn't 255 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: necessarily think like, for example, they did not necessarily believe 256 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: that he was going to do I mean, this was 257 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: a thing we saw again and again. They didn't believe 258 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: he was going to do the bad stuff for some reason, 259 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:01,839 Speaker 1: and they just didn't think. 260 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 3: I have not seen a lot of polling that says 261 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 3: that they didn't believe he would not do the bad stuff. 262 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 3: I have seen a lot of polling that says they 263 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 3: want him to do mass deportations and that they want 264 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 3: him to do a jillion percent tariffs against the jinas, 265 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 3: the China's not the vaginas. 266 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I got it. 267 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 3: But I have seen them express this desire for the 268 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 3: things he was selling. And I'm trying to not give 269 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 3: America like an extra break here by saying, oh, well, 270 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 3: obviously they didn't think. They thought he was joking, he 271 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 3: didn't really mean mass deportations. I find that to be 272 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 3: a dangerous area for us to go into, to not 273 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 3: take him seriously and literally. That's the old joke, you know, 274 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 3: you don't take Trump seriously or. 275 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: Literally, right. I mean, it doesn't matter what they wanted, 276 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: because they're going to get Project twenty twenty. 277 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 3: Five and they're going to get it good and hard. Yeah. 278 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's talk about what that looks like. We got, 279 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: we got my body and he's now body. Let me 280 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: tell you he's really not my buddy Russ Vaught. 281 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, the great Russ Vought running OMBA. 282 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 3: And for those of you playing at home, give. 283 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 5: Us the TLDR on that guy running the Office of 284 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 5: Management the budget is he's the guy who will be 285 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 5: able to look down at great with great granularity, into 286 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 5: the various departments and say, oh, you have a program. 287 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 3: Here that might somehow hypothetically relate to climate change. By 288 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 3: it's gone. If you don't think Russ Vought and Vivic 289 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 3: and Elon will be swap and spit every day and 290 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 3: taking long showers together to plot out how to best 291 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 3: fuck the American people. That is the guy who's going 292 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 3: to push the actual buttons to. 293 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: Do it right. I think it's important to mention that 294 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: the vac Russ Vaught is like, is a heritage guy, 295 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: is a He's a Republican donor guy. He is like 296 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: going to really run this admin. The Veke and Elon 297 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: have a fake job. Now, whether or not they can 298 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: do anything with that fake job. We don't know, but 299 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: the the Department of DOGE is largely a meme. 300 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 3: It is largely a meme. But if they have a 301 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 3: relationship with a guy like Russvott, who already has plans. 302 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 3: By the way, he will also be pointing those idiots 303 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 3: in the direction of targets that he's already identified in 304 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 3: Project twenty twenty five. So he's going to say, oh, well, 305 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 3: we've gone through the budget line items of every department, 306 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 3: and here in the Department of Commerce is a DEI program, 307 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 3: or here in the EPA is a climate program, or 308 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 3: here in Health and Human Services is something that LGBTQ 309 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 3: folks benefit from. He's going to already tell them, and 310 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 3: then they'll make it. Then Elon will go, why are 311 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 3: we paying for lesbian loot players and the HI just 312 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 3: budget or whatever fantasy bullshit he makes up, right, And 313 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 3: so then you know, it's sort of a fiendish circle. 314 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 3: Vaught and his types will identify the targets they've already 315 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 3: set up for execution. Elon and Vivek will make it 316 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 3: a giant public screen match. 317 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: And do you know who serves as their congressional attache. 318 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 3: I do not. 319 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: I can't believe I get to be the one to 320 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: tell you this, like, I do not know this. Taylor 321 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: Green is going toal subcommittee. 322 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 3: Now I will say this, Molly, that actually kind of 323 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 3: makes me feel better. 324 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 1: Right. Well, that's what AOC said too. She was like, 325 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: you know, she's never done the reading once in her life. 326 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: So good luck to all of you. 327 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 3: Look, I have to say the President can do a lot, okay, 328 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 3: but the Department of the Office of the Management of 329 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 3: the Budget still operates under a number of different areas 330 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 3: of congressional control. And those areas of congressional control are 331 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 3: set down in law and set down in the Constitution. 332 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 3: They appropriate that money, Okay, that is how it's done. Okay, 333 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 3: they authorize and appropriate that money. That is how it's done. 334 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 3: So one of the things that's going to happen here 335 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 3: really quickly is going to discover that every government program 336 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 3: is spread out among all fifty seven states or eighty 337 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 3: one of Floria. Trump numbers fifty seven states and territories 338 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 3: in this great country. Right. So when they say, oh, well, 339 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 3: I'll give you a good example. Elon wants to get 340 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 3: rid of the rocket that competes with His rocket doesn't 341 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 3: really compete very well, but Boeing has this rocket, right, 342 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 3: So he's going to say, oh, well, we've got to 343 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 3: get rid of the Boeing whatever SLS, whatever it's called, right, 344 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 3: and we want to kill that program. The Margie Taylor 345 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 3: Green's going to discover that in her district they make 346 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 3: some sort of fucking part for that and it employs 347 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 3: eighteen people and they're paid one hundred and twenty five 348 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 3: thousand dollars a year each, And that happens across the nation. 349 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 3: They're going to run into the critical reality wall of 350 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 3: government spending, which is that government spending happens everywhere. They're 351 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 3: going to also run into the wall that you could 352 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 3: cut every discretionary program out there. You could cut the 353 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 3: EPA and h justin commerce and everything else down to 354 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 3: the bone. Okay, cut it to the bone. You could 355 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 3: cut the Pentagon budget in half, and you know what, 356 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 3: you still have gigantic debt service and four big social 357 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 3: programs that they're not going to get rid of. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, 358 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 3: and the sub category there disability, which has been the 359 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 3: one that's exploding. And guess what if you draw a 360 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 3: map down Appalachia and the Deep South, that's where disability 361 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 3: is happening. 362 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: Well also, you know disability. We just went through COVID. 363 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like what I'm always struck by 364 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 1: by how insane this next admin is going to be 365 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: is they've learned lessons from COVID, but they've learned all 366 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: the wrong lessons, right right, So they were like, a 367 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 1: million people died and it's because we had vaccine mandates. 368 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: Right No, no, no, no, that's not why a million 369 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: people died. I mean, and it's just like every you know, 370 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: it's like watching a slow motion car wreck. But I 371 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: actually haven't thought I want you to talk about for 372 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: a minute because I think this is the thing that 373 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: is so weird to me. These people, Vivek and Elon 374 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 1: are obsessed with technology, right right, These people are RFK Junior. 375 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: They all hate science. Make it make sense, Well. 376 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 3: They hate a science that somehow identifies in the world 377 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 3: that there are social factors that exist. So they hated 378 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 3: the fact that there were mask mandates because there was 379 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 3: an argument. Correct, I still believe that it would diminish 380 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 3: in some way, even at the margins, the spread of COVID, 381 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 3: But they felt like that was the government telling them 382 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 3: what to do. Now, They're fine telling one what to 383 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 3: do with her vagina, but they're not fine with the 384 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 3: government saying you should inoculate your or you should vaccinate 385 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 3: your kids from measles, mumps, rebellodip theoria, teennis, and polio. 386 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 3: Part of it's like this strange San Francisco Bay Silicon 387 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 3: Valley WU inflected thing. They believe in engineering more than 388 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 3: they believe in science, because science can tell you things 389 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 3: about the bigger societal picture than just engineering can. 390 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess that's the only answer. But it just 391 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: seems to me like if you love technology, you should 392 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: at least have a nodding as to science. 393 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 3: You know, look, you ought to, it would be great. 394 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 3: But they let me give you another part of what's 395 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 3: happening here. There is a belief among this broligarchy, David 396 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 3: Sachs and Bill Ackman and Elon Musk and Vivek and 397 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 3: all these other people in a lot of ways that 398 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 3: they will be the holders of all wisdom and approaches 399 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 3: to how things are. 400 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: Done right because they're smarter than everyone else, because somehow 401 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,919 Speaker 1: they got government subsidies for doing their businesses. 402 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 3: Yes, correct, I would be happy for the doge to 403 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 3: pass the world that says, no one involved who donates 404 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 3: to a political figure, they receive government funding I like, 405 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 3: of any kind, and they're no company of anybody who's 406 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 3: involved or invested in they receive government funding. And you 407 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 3: know what, I promise you that's not going to happen 408 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 3: because Elon Musk's entire fortune has been made on the 409 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 3: back of the US taxpayer. 410 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: Real talk exactly. And now it's true. Now the money 411 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 1: he's going to. 412 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 3: Cut, yeah, correct, except for himself. I promise you now, 413 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 3: a single dime of SpaceX or Tesla fund that has 414 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 3: any government impact will Those will be the most meritorious 415 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 3: spending items in the entire budget. 416 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: Yeah. 417 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 4: No. 418 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 1: The whole idea that you're going to bring some outside 419 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: billionaire who's never done government into cut costs is very stupid. 420 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: But this is all going to get very stupid, very fast. 421 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 3: At the end of the Cold War, we have this 422 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 3: thing called the Base Realignment and Closure Commission, because we 423 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 3: had like seven hundred or nine hundred military bases in 424 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 3: this country. At the end of the Cold War, we 425 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 3: realized and we don't need all this anymore. Right, You 426 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 3: had people from the most progressive fuck the military, burn 427 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 3: the military to the ground liberal types to hardcore conservatives. 428 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 3: Every one of them was like, oh no, Fort John 429 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 3: Jones in my district, even though it hasn't hasn't been 430 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,360 Speaker 3: used since the War of eighteen fucking twelve, is essential 431 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 3: to national defense. All of it is like, you're going 432 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:55,919 Speaker 3: to see the blowback that's going to happen on the 433 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 3: doge from Congress itself, including from some of its most 434 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 3: concernive members. They're gonna be like, wait, what They're great, true, 435 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 3: true wake up call. It's going to be glorious. Rick 436 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 3: Wilson as always happy to be with you and happy 437 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 3: to be right. 438 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: Well, not totally right, but sure. Roger mcnamie is the 439 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: author of Zucht Waking Up to the Facebook Catastrophe. Welcome 440 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: to past politics, Roger. 441 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 3: It is a great pleasure moment. 442 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. Oh, we're so excited to 443 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: have you. We are in such a strange moment in 444 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: American life. 445 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 4: But you saw those coming, well, Molly, I have some advantages. 446 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 4: I first went to Silicon Valley in nineteen eighty two, 447 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 4: back when seriously it was a completely different world, you know. 448 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 4: I followed the siren call of Steve Jobs to both 449 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 4: create technology that would empower people, increase productivity, and frankly, 450 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 4: make the world a better place. From nineteen eighty two 451 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 4: until the financial crisis, it was really exciting. Silicon Valley 452 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 4: produced a lot of things. But beginning, you know, two 453 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 4: thousand and nine twenty ten, the tech industry discovered that 454 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 4: post financial crisis, that they no longer had to make 455 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 4: products that were good for people or that empowered them. 456 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 4: That they could use data and the free capital that 457 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 4: was available because interest rates were essentially zero for a 458 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 4: long time, they could get unprecedented amounts of capital and 459 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 4: use technology to exploit human weakness. And so the whole 460 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 4: industry went from being the most exciting, dynamic, positive contribute 461 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 4: to our economy to becoming the greatest threat to democracy, 462 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 4: public health, and civil liberties that the country has seen 463 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 4: in a very very long tut And all of that 464 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 4: became clear to me in twenty sixteen. 465 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: Was it the election that made you. 466 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 4: Know, oh, interesting, No, it was way before the election. 467 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 4: So keep in mind, I'd been involved as an investor 468 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 4: in technology companies, and I'd been a mentor to Mark 469 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 4: Zuckerberg at Facebook and to Cheryl Samberg. I brought them 470 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 4: together so that was all in from two thousand and 471 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 4: six to two thousand and nine. 472 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: Some was said Tobate that you mentor before we discovered 473 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 1: that they're evil. Sorry you try. 474 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 4: That was certainly true for me. Yeah, when I knew 475 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 4: them well, I both respected them both and I liked 476 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 4: them both. And there were signs that they had shall 477 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 4: we say, big dreams. But that's not an uncommon thing 478 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 4: with entrepreneurs. It's just in two thousand and six, if 479 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 4: you had really bad intention, the technology itself didn't allow 480 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 4: you to hurt people at large scale. That really didn't 481 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 4: happen until cell phones had enough bandwidth to do videos. 482 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 4: So at that point there were no limitations on what 483 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 4: you could do with technology. And the key thing in 484 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 4: early twenty sixteen, I started to see disinformation, really hate 485 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 4: speech targeted Hillary Clinton. It was virallly spreading through Facebook, 486 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 4: and I went, oh, that doesn't look good. And then 487 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 4: there were some civil rights things that happened, and then 488 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 4: Breggs it in the United Kingdom in June twenty sixteen. 489 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 4: The outcome was such a huge shock. Literally it was 490 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 4: an eight point swing from what the polls had suggested 491 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 4: the day before the referendum, and it occurred to me 492 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 4: that Facebook was probably the only reasonable explanation for how. 493 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 3: That had happened. 494 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 4: And then in the summer of twenty sixteen, we discovered 495 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 4: that Paul Maniford is shall we say, affiliated with Russian oligarchs. 496 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: You'll remember that from season one. Trump as does continue exactly. 497 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 4: But all of that really scared me. So I wrote 498 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 4: up a thing which was originally going to be an 499 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 4: op ed, but I'd never written an op ed before, 500 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 4: and so it took me a long time to do it. 501 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 4: Before I published it, I sent it to Mark Zuckerberg 502 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 4: and Schaw Sandberg to warn them. So this is nine 503 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 4: days before the presidential election twenty sixteen. Saint guys, I 504 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 4: am really terrified because Facebook, this company had been deeply involved, 505 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 4: is being used by bad actors to undermine democracy and 506 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 4: civil rights. And as your former mentor, what I'm saying 507 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 4: to you is, I don't think you want your company 508 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 4: to be associated with undermining democracy and civil rights that, 509 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 4: even if you aren't morally interested in it. Right, it's 510 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 4: a bad business strategy, and long story, sure everybody knows 511 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 4: what happens. 512 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,199 Speaker 1: They were like, no, it's a good business strategy. 513 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, Actually it was more cynical than that. 514 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 4: There's a term of art at Silicon Valley when somebody 515 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 4: is really nice to and smiley at you, but doing 516 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 4: the opposite of what you want to do. It's called 517 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 4: grin fucking. And that's what they did to me. And 518 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 4: they couldn't have been more polite, and they could not 519 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 4: have been less interested in acting. And so I became 520 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,359 Speaker 4: an activist. I went to Congress, I went to state 521 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 4: attorneys general, I talked to governors. You know, I did 522 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 4: work with believe it or not, I worked with the 523 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 4: Trump administration and the Trust people, all trying to get 524 00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 4: them to recognize that uncontrolled Silicon Valley representatives to everything 525 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 4: that we value in America, democracy, public health, civil liberties, 526 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 4: you know, just the whole function of our society. And 527 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,120 Speaker 4: it wasn't because they were banned people. It was because 528 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 4: they perceived that what their mission was, you know, in 529 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 4: the case of Mark Zuckerberg connecting the whole world on 530 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 4: a communications network that he managed, that that was so 531 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 4: important that it justified any harm that might result from it. 532 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 4: And you know, my view was that, let's face it, 533 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 4: we've been through things like this with automobiles, with tobacco, 534 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 4: with aircraft, with lead and paint. Right, there are been 535 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 4: zillions of examples of the government is actually government acting 536 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,479 Speaker 4: to ensure safety, to ensure protection of civil rights, and 537 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 4: to preserve competition. So I argued for those three things, 538 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 4: and you know a lot of people listened. We had 539 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 4: lots of conversations, and nothing happened. So twenty twenty comes along, 540 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 4: and in twenty twenty, Phase Book's role was different that 541 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 4: in twenty sixteen. You know, the Russians want to advertise 542 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 4: and Facebook goes, well, they're a good customer, and they 543 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 4: offered their services both to Trump and to Clinton. Clinton 544 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 4: said no, and the Facebook guys threw themselves into helping 545 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 4: Trump win, and together with Cambridge Analytica, they matched thirty 546 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 4: million Facebook user IDs to voter files, which allowed them, 547 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 4: from a targeting point of view, to have a level 548 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 4: of accuracy in targeting that it never occurred. 549 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 3: At politics previously. 550 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 4: And they used to just suppress the votes of black people, 551 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:42,479 Speaker 4: suburban women, and young voters in target states. How did 552 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 4: they get that information? Was that because Russia hacked the 553 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 4: Democratic National Committee and the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. We 554 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,719 Speaker 4: don't know, because nobody ever really investigated, but they had 555 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 4: perfect targeting and they suppressed those votes and Trump won 556 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 4: in twenty twenty. It was different because in the lead 557 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 4: up to twenty twenty we had COVID, and during COVID, QAnon, 558 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 4: which were the guys who were around Pizza gain were 559 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 4: they were like super active, and Facebook could have kept 560 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 4: all those people at the fringes. But their business model 561 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 4: is different than that. Their business model is about getting 562 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 4: people's attention, and the way you do that is with 563 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 4: fear and outrage. Not because everybody reacts to that, but 564 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 4: because probably half the population reacts to that more than 565 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 4: anything else, and half the population is enough, and so 566 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 4: they even after the FBI warned them in May of 567 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 4: twenty nineteen, Facebook continued to allow QAnon to prosper. And 568 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 4: then when COVID broke out, Facebook had already been at 569 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 4: place where they have these things called facebo, people who 570 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 4: have a shared interest get together, and one of the 571 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 4: core ones was is groups for new mothers, and people 572 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 4: who were anti vaxers infiltrated these new mothers groups, and 573 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 4: the anti vaxers were essentially indoctrinating new mothers to be 574 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,719 Speaker 4: anti vax The q and on guys saw this, and 575 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 4: they aimed at the anti vaxers and subsumed them. The 576 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,719 Speaker 4: Trump campaign saw this and went, wow, these are our people, 577 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 4: and so they went and MAGA essentially merged with q Andon. 578 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 4: That's why Trump spent the summer of twenty twenty putting 579 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 4: out all those tweets about q and on stuff and 580 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 4: so Facebook. You know, if they had been more worried 581 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 4: about democracy and profits, they would have stopped this, but 582 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 4: they did just the opposite. And of course then Trump 583 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 4: began to stop the steal. And all of that was 584 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 4: organized in Facebook groups right up to the right up 585 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 4: to the insurrection. And I had written my book two 586 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 4: years earlier, and I talked about the fact that Facebook groups, 587 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 4: because there's no police, a lot of bad things happen 588 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 4: in them, and if you don't controlled them in some way, 589 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 4: eventually we were going to have an insurrection. And son 590 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 4: of a Gun it actually happened at Genuar of twenty 591 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 4: twenty one, and we had a whistleblower, Francis Hoguand who 592 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 4: brought out all the paperwork and said, all the people 593 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 4: on Facebook knew all about this. And you know you're 594 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 4: sitting there going, okay, wow, that's really bad. Well, in 595 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 4: twenty twenty four, it took one step even worse than that, 596 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 4: which is that people in Silicon Valley stop pretending to 597 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 4: be neutral. You know, obviously the most extreme example is Musk, 598 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 4: but they all were pretty tightly aligned with Trump. And 599 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 4: you know, the problem is that Silicon Valley controls the 600 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 4: most important communication systems we have in the country, in fact, 601 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 4: in the whole world. And so we go into this 602 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 4: thing in a year at which fifty four percent of 603 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 4: American adults cannot read above a sixth grade level. So, 604 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 4: you know, public education, which has been crushed for forty years, 605 00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 4: has put us on this point where a lot of 606 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 4: people vulnerable to manipulation, and these technology products, which are 607 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 4: designed for manipulation are aligned with the forces that are 608 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 4: against democracy. And that's how we wound up where we 609 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 4: are today. So it didn't matter how good a campaign 610 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 4: the vice president ran. The people on the other side 611 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 4: never heard any of it. 612 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: So I want you to the anti vax QAnon stuff 613 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: is really interesting to me, and had not I absolutely 614 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: did not, for whatever reason, totally thread the needle on that. 615 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: So can you explain that to us a little bit? 616 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 3: Yeah? 617 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 4: Sure, So here's The way to think about it, if 618 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 4: you look at the post mortems on the twenty twenty 619 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 4: four election, people talked about Fox News and they talk about, 620 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 4: you know, the various right wing podcasters, right, and the 621 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 4: Democrats that had nothing to match that. The thing that 622 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 4: they're missing is that Fox News Joe Rogan their audiences 623 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 4: are what five million, maybe ten million at tops. 624 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: I mean those Joe Rogan clips got to sixty nine 625 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 1: million people. 626 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 4: Oh no, I believe that. Sorry, I believe that. But 627 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 4: how did they get there? They got there because Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, 628 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 4: YouTube right, which is owned by Google, and Twitter elevated them. 629 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:30,439 Speaker 4: Are these platforms that were aligned with Trump's positions, right, 630 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 4: And the thing that I think really matters is that 631 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 4: you roughly eighty million people voted for Trump. How many 632 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 4: people are in maggot, I don't know. It's it eighty is, 633 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 4: at sixties, at one hundred, it doesn't matter. You can't 634 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 4: sustain a collective dilution right right, at the scale of 635 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 4: sixty to one hundred million people with things that only 636 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 4: have an audience of five million. So the role that 637 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,359 Speaker 4: these things play is gigantic. So if you go back 638 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 4: to anti vas the problem with Facebook, and Facebook really 639 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 4: is worse than the other guys on this issue, but 640 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 4: they all contribute to it, is that Facebook's whole business 641 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 4: model is taking ideas from the fringe, things that historically 642 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 4: before Internet platforms existed, were just people, you know, flat 643 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 4: earthers and all that, where people are just screaming into 644 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 4: a void and nobody listening. Facebook business strategy was to 645 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,760 Speaker 4: mainstream all those ideas, and in the context of anti 646 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,760 Speaker 4: vax and in the context of MAGA, in the context 647 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 4: to stop the steal, and in the context of the 648 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 4: twenty twenty four election. What that meant was that you 649 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 4: could literally create an alternate reality with roughly half the 650 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 4: voters all completely involved and uncouched by reality. And you know, 651 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 4: there's an Adam Surwer thing in The Atlantic this week 652 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 4: where he's talking about the fact that there's going to 653 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 4: be some buyer's remorse because the alternate reality is so 654 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 4: unhinged that a lot of the people have voted for 655 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 4: Trump don't believe he's actually going to do the things 656 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 4: he's already doing. 657 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: I want to get into that because that was something 658 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: I absolutely saw, was that I really noticed this when 659 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: you would when you would talk to voters, or when 660 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: you would look at the data, is that a lot 661 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 1: of these voters, You would say, well, Trump is going 662 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 1: to do this, and they would say, no, he's not 663 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: going to do it. At the RNC, they had signs 664 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,759 Speaker 1: that said mass deportation. Now, when you talk to voters 665 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 1: you would say, you know, for example, like the large 666 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: number of Latino voters at the border in the Rio 667 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,439 Speaker 1: Grande Valley who voted for Trump, they would say, well, yeah, 668 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: but it's not he's not going to do it, or 669 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: it's not going to do it that way, or it's 670 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: not going to happen to us. There was a real 671 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: inability to sort of suspension of disbelief. I always thought 672 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: it was because Trump wasn't able to do the kind 673 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: of stuff he had wanted to the first time around. 674 00:36:58,040 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 3: I don't know. 675 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 4: What I do know, though, is that a vote for 676 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 4: Trump wasn't necessarily a vote for what he was advocating, 677 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 4: but it was always a vote against Biden and the irony. 678 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 4: The irony is that somehow the Democrats were unable to 679 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:18,800 Speaker 4: get credit for the Inflation Reduction Act and the various 680 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 4: things that they did post COVID that essentially allowed the 681 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,919 Speaker 4: US economy to prosper in a way that no other 682 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 4: economy in the world did, and for Americans to be 683 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,720 Speaker 4: protected in a way that the citizens of other countries 684 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 4: were not, and they got no credit for that. Now, 685 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 4: that may have been a flaw in the way the 686 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 4: campaign was run, but it is customary in America for 687 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 4: presidential elections to be referendum on whoever's in office, and 688 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 4: prices are demonstrably higher than they were in twenty twenty. 689 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 4: Biden got nailed with that, notwithstanding the fact that personal 690 00:37:55,000 --> 00:38:00,080 Speaker 4: incomes are way up, employment is maxed out, and a 691 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 4: lot of the services on which people depend have been 692 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,800 Speaker 4: financed in a way that helps it awful lot of people. 693 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 4: And all of that's going to go away under Trump. Right, 694 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 4: all of that's I mean, his strategy when he came 695 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 4: in the first time was to undo everything that Obama did, 696 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 4: and I assume his strategy will be underdo everything. 697 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: I assume this will not be better. 698 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 4: Yes, right, Meanwhile, they will claim credit, they will claim 699 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 4: credit for all the things that Biden did, right, because 700 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 4: you saw those polls that showed that sentiment about the 701 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 4: economy isn't actually about the economy, it's about is your 702 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 4: side winning or not right, So Republicans the minute the 703 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 4: election was done, Republicans suddenly think the economy looks great. 704 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 4: All of that is I mean, it's really disturbing because 705 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 4: history suggests when you get a change life, when people 706 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 4: come into power whose goal is to destroy, it's a 707 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 4: lot easier direct things than this to build. It's not 708 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:02,720 Speaker 4: certain that we can recover quickly. You know, for example, 709 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 4: we may not be able to recover as quickly from 710 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,760 Speaker 4: the second Trump term as we did from the first, 711 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,239 Speaker 4: And recovering from the first one was obviously we had 712 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 4: some very fortunate things that happened, and Biden did some 713 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,760 Speaker 4: brilliant things, but Democrats didn't get re elected for doing. 714 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 3: All of that. 715 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,759 Speaker 4: And you know, after this next one, you know, we 716 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 4: may be looking at today and going, you know what 717 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 4: those were before times that those were the times we 718 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 4: really love, That's when we were happy, and you know, 719 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 4: we may be dealing with less of everything from here. 720 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 4: I just don't know. 721 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that's right, and I also 722 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: think I think two things. One I think that's right, 723 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: and two I don't think that there's any world in 724 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,799 Speaker 1: which I mean, yeah, I think that's right. Because the 725 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: problem was inequality, and so the people elected a nefarious 726 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:59,399 Speaker 1: billionaire with the hopes that he would somehow fix it. 727 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,360 Speaker 1: I want you to give me like a two minute 728 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: prescription on how you solve this incredibly enormous problem. 729 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,960 Speaker 4: We have to change our relationship to technology. We have 730 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:17,800 Speaker 4: an irrational trust in technology and a belief that anything 731 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 4: new is better than what came before it. Neither of 732 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 4: those things is true today. People should be not just 733 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:30,360 Speaker 4: skeptical but afraid of crypto. They should not just be 734 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 4: skeptical but afraid of generative artificial intelligence. These are not 735 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,360 Speaker 4: products designed to make your life better. These are products 736 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 4: designing to extract value from you and leave you worse 737 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 4: off to the benefit of the people who are in control. 738 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,319 Speaker 4: And we need to change our relationship, and we need 739 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,399 Speaker 4: to do it now. So you and I are both 740 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 4: on Blue Scott. Challenge with Blue Skot is that it's 741 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 4: not obvious to me that there is a technology solution 742 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 4: to the problems we face today. And because it's highly centralized, 743 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,319 Speaker 4: the incentives from Blue Sky are no different than they 744 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 4: were for Twitter or Facebook or Instagram. 745 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,000 Speaker 1: So they could get sold. 746 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 4: Or they could monetize in a way that is extractive, 747 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 4: and what we need to do quickly is to work 748 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,799 Speaker 4: with the team and find a way to make it 749 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 4: a subscription model or some model that isn't dependent on 750 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,400 Speaker 4: our data because the incentives are totally screwed up. 751 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:29,479 Speaker 1: Have you talked to them? 752 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 3: I have not. 753 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 4: I don't know them, and I would love to meet 754 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,920 Speaker 4: them because what they have done is truly amazing. But 755 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,080 Speaker 4: the core thing is we can't be looking for silver 756 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 4: bullets here. I think this is going to require all 757 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 4: of us remembering that community comes first. 758 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 3: We have to care about other people. 759 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 4: You know that Reagan's admonition that we're all the Marlborough 760 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 4: man that was wrong, That was dangerous. That's what led 761 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 4: us to where we are now. Not because Regan was 762 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 4: a bad guy, but just because that was a dumb 763 00:41:57,640 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 4: idea that at the end of the day, we need 764 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 4: each other and we need to respect each other and 765 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 4: to be supportive, to acknowledge that there are folks whose 766 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,400 Speaker 4: very nature makes them potential victims of what's going on. 767 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:14,719 Speaker 4: Now we have to defend them. 768 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:15,040 Speaker 3: All. 769 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 4: That means trans people, that means women, that means people 770 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 4: of color, that means immigrants, that means everybody, and we 771 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,360 Speaker 4: have to recognize we're all in this together in that 772 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 4: trying to claim that somebody is the problem that's wrong. 773 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,040 Speaker 1: Thank you, Roger, that was great, Thank you. 774 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:40,200 Speaker 4: God pleasure, no moment. Rick Wilson, Molly, Jong Fast. 775 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 1: We have the one thing that we still have. 776 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 3: We do. We want the one thing that we that 777 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 3: we absolutely are required by state and federal law of 778 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 3: performing at each podcast outing yes, And. 779 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 1: This one is particularly amazing because it involves something we 780 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 1: told everyone was going to happen. 781 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 3: Yep, we sure did. We told y'all that when Donald 782 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,719 Speaker 3: Trump even started to propose tariffs, that companies would start 783 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,399 Speaker 3: raising their prices on regular people in anticipation. Oh my gosh, Molly, 784 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 3: what's happening right now? 785 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,919 Speaker 1: Walmart lows may raise prices if Trump's tariff plans take 786 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:22,560 Speaker 1: into effect. CFOs say, you will be shocked to know that. 787 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,919 Speaker 1: In an interview with CNBC, Walmart CFO said he never 788 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,919 Speaker 1: wants to raise prices. I mean, who does. But he's 789 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 1: going to have to raise prices, you know why, because 790 00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,399 Speaker 1: tariffs are wildly inflationary, and. 791 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,239 Speaker 3: Their taxes on the American. 792 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 1: People, on the consumer. 793 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 3: It's so striking to me. We have this insistence by 794 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 3: Trump and almost no one else, even his own people 795 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 3: are very careful not to say this. The taxes they 796 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,040 Speaker 3: will be raised. Those are China taxes. They're on China, right, 797 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:59,760 Speaker 3: but they're not. But they're not. They're on Americans again. 798 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 3: People voted for this, and they're going to get it 799 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 3: good and hard. I think they're going to have a 800 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 3: moment of shock, frankly, that the Great Donald Trump is 801 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,799 Speaker 3: raising their taxes, even if it's not going to go 802 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,120 Speaker 3: on their ten ninety nine every year, it's going on 803 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,480 Speaker 3: their taxes. They're paying more money because they are going 804 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,600 Speaker 3: to end up having the places they shop most driving 805 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,400 Speaker 3: the prices up in advance because they know what's coming. 806 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,680 Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, yeah, Thank you. 807 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 3: Rick Wilson as always happy to be with you. I'll 808 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 3: talk to you soon. 809 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:32,399 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 810 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best 811 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:42,520 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 812 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 813 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,280 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.