WEBVTT - Kids can’t read anymore. Does it matter? (with author Jason Reynolds) 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:12.800 I'm Manny, I'm Noah. 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:14.920 This is Devin and this is no such thing. 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:17.840 The show where we settle art, arguments and yours by 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:21.760 actually doing the research. In this episode, kids aren't reading anymore. 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:28.880 Who cares, No, There's no no such thing, no such thing, 0:00:30.280 --> 0:00:32.199 no such thank. 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:35.159 Such, thank. 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:38.120 Such thank. 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:43.120 So. 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:50.120 As we know, there have been many stories reports about 0:00:50.159 --> 0:00:50.920 the death of reading. 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:54.880 The latest version of the Nation's report Card shows America's 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:58.200 high school seniors have the worst math and reading scores 0:00:58.240 --> 0:00:59.760 in more than two decades. 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:04.120 Just forty percent of fourth graders are working below what's 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:07.040 considered a basic reading level for their age. 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.320 Nearly a third of seniors did not have the basic 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:13.720 reading skills needed to find the details in a given 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:15.960 text to understand its meaning. 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:20.120 Our nation's report card is a business right now. 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:23.160 So one that I'll highlight for now is from the 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:27.560 Atlantic magazine titled America is sliding toward illiteracy. So this 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:29.920 is a quote from the article. By some measures, American 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:32.039 students have regressed to a level not seen in twenty 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.240 five years or more. Test scores from NAEP, short for 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:38.479 the National Assessment of Educational Progress, show that thirty three 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:40.240 percent of eighth graders are reading at a level that 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:42.600 is below basic, meaning that they struggle to follow the 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:44.960 order of events in a passage or to even summarize 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:47.119 its main idea. That is the highest share of students 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.600 unable to meaningfully read since nineteen ninety two. Among fourth graders, 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:54.440 forty percent are below basic in reading, the highest share 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:57.200 since two thousand. The bottom tenth of thirteen year olds, 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:00.920 according to naep's long term trend data, are hitting lows 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:04.000 in reading and math scores not seen since those tests 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:06.600 began in nineteen seventy one and nineteen seventy eight, respectively. 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:08.520 They go through a bunch of different theories of why 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:11.720 is it school spending is lower? No, school spending has 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:15.720 increased from twenty twelve to twenty twenty two, from fourteen 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:19.880 thousand per student to sixteen thousand adjusted for inflation. Okay, 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:23.679 so that's not the culprit. People look at COVID. There 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:26.240 was a dip, but not as pronounced as you would think, 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:28.600 and it's kind of numbers have basically leveled out, so 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:30.840 it's not like you could totally blame that. Then people 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:33.160 talk about smartphones and attention and there's different things. Then 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:36.560 there's also stuff about schools teaching kids excerpts instead of 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:38.320 full books because no one's going to pay attention to 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:38.680 doing that. 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:39.440 Oh my god. 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:44.080 A disturbing new report on what kids are reading, or 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:47.679 rather not reading, in school the New York Times with 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:51.800 this headline, kids rarely read whole books anymore, even in 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:52.519 English class. 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:56.560 If four books was a typical number of books to 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:00.639 be experiencing in high school English language arts, now we're 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.480 seeing many schools reporting that kids are experiencing only one 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:07.000 even two books in high school in LA. So something's 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:07.679 going amiss. 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:11.120 Have you guys seen this? People not reading as far 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:14.560 as among peers and also any younger people you might 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:15.760 be around. 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:19.520 Yeah, I really noticed this with my brother, he's in 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:21.520 high school now, he's in a senior year of high school. 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:23.800 We were talking. This is a year or two ago. 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:26.760 It was summer and I was saying, what books do 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:27.720 you have to read this summer? 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:28.359 Yeah? 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:30.640 He said, what do you mean, what books do I 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:33.200 have to read this summer? I was like, don't you 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:35.880 get like books assigned from school summer reading? 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:36.120 Yeah? 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:37.760 Everybody gets your summer reading from school. 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:40.120 Yeah, we would get like two I think it was 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:43.280 like two books, you know, everybody would wait till last 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:46.120 minute to do it. Yeah, and you may have to 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:47.560 spark no, half the book whatever. 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:49.840 But oh yeah, you're not a book you were supposed 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:50.080 to read. 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:52.040 Yeah, you had a book that was assigned to you 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.320 that you were supposed to read. And said, we don't 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.120 get summer reading. I was like, okay, is that a 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:57.840 new thing. Have you ever gotten some reading? He's like, no, 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.280 we've never gotten some reading. So I was like, okay, 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:03.240 do you read books during school? It's like, yeah, sometimes 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:05.240 we're reading class. I was like, do they give you 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.760 books to read on your own? He said no, And 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:12.240 I was like, okay, this is a high school who 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:15.720 is not being assigned a single book to read in 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:16.440 its entirety. 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.640 That's crazy And you know, yeah. 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:22.599 Such a stark difference from when we were reading multiple 0:04:22.640 --> 0:04:24.000 books a yere yeah. 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:25.920 And look a lot of kids didn't read the books, 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:29.320 but the expectation was that you were to read the. 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:30.920 Book and you were talking about the book in full, 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:33.000 not like here's this one chapter m hm. 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:33.680 Yeah. 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.520 My feeling on it is that there's a bit of 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.320 a reaction to kids don't have attention spans, they aren't 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:42.359 reading anyway, Why would I waste time assigning them something 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:44.400 they aren't going to read, so it's just sort of 0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:46.320 a waste of time. So now we're at the point 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:50.440 where the bar has been lowered to the point where 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:52.640 it's not even an expectation for them to read. 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:56.120 So then it's like, yeah, why would he read? 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:59.880 Like my brother does not like read books for fun, 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:02.560 you know, and like at his age, I wasn't really either. 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:04.679 I was reading what I had to read for school everything. 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:06.440 Once in a while would pick up a book, but 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:08.520 like I didn't really start reading for fun until like 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:12.839 after college. Most of my reading during high school was 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:14.159 because I had to read for school. 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:16.760 Yeah, do you think it's mainly like the attention span thing? 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:19.320 And why do you think that has changed so much? 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:22.400 The obvious thing that sticks out to me is in 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:24.960 terms of what's changed since we were in high school, 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:28.720 is like phone usage. Yeah, just the amount of time 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:30.520 you spend on your phone, the kind of things you 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:32.880 see on your phone. Like when I was in high school, 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:35.719 you could basically text someone on your phone and that 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:38.560 was it. Like there wasn't that you didn't like watch 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:39.960 videos or anything like that. 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:41.680 Yeah, you weren't on social media on your phone. 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:43.479 Yeah, you have to. You did you have to go 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:46.360 home and get on your dial up internet to get 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:48.440 on Facebook to send a Facebook status? 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.000 And you did? And I did, trust I. 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.960 Was on there. My cursory guess here is that it's 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:57.240 got to be the attention span thing. 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:00.080 And it's not just kids right now. I think the 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:02.279 adults are nobody reads. 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:04.200 Yeah, that's that's my thing. I think you can find 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.599 surveys of how many books adults read too, obviously, but yeah, 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.880 it's easier, especially when trying to get comprehensive data. My 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:14.000 guess is to research obviously for schools and students. Yeah, 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.280 and like it seems more important than like telling them 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:17.600 forty year old, well. 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:17.919 There's the thing. 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:19.760 It's like, yeah, you learn the skill of doing it, 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:21.760 and it's like yeah, even if you haven't read a 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:24.120 book in you know, ten years, it's like, well you 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:26.680 could read a book. I think it's different. That's just 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.200 the same thing with me of like AI with younger people, 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:31.800 it's like, yeah, okay, we know how to write a 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:36.040 fifteen page you know, essay ourselves. So if I were 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:38.560 using ad to do it now, not great, But like 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:40.320 I've done the thing, so I know kind of what 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:43.279 goes into it. If you've never read a single book 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:46.719 in your entire life, how does that impact how you 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:49.400 interpret you? Like they're saying people can't read passages in 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:53.559 that simple information, right. I think a lot of times 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:55.960 it gets spun into like an attention span thing, which 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.200 is obviously yeah, that's part of it, But I think 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:01.679 a bigger issue is, like people can comprehend very basic 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.880 things a little bit, like you know, Facebook, TikTok, brain 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:07.960 of just sort of like people can basically read headlines 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:08.400 and that's it. 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:11.480 Yeah, So that kind of leads to another question is 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:14.320 basically does this actually matter? Like what are the impacts 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:16.840 of this sort of thing if people just largely don't read? 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:20.160 Like what if tech and communication and the way we 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:22.960 share information is moving into different mediums and formats, So 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:26.200 whether that's you know, short form video like TikTok, or 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:31.160 longer form media but audio only like a podcast, or 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:33.200 just like shorter texts, like what if we just learn 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:34.280 through tweets? 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:34.720 Yeah? 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:36.800 Yeah, what do you think are the pitfalls of that? 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.040 I just don't think we're a society right now it 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:42.920 values reading in it in a real way. 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:43.480 That's it to me. 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:47.160 I think it's like there's no emphasis from anyone to 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:49.800 actually spend time. I mean, and it's not even just 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:52.160 about okay, focusing to read a novel or something. It's 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:54.880 like everyone just used to these really short whether it's 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:58.280 bullet points or TikTok's or something, and it's like, I'm sorry, 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:01.800 there are a great TikTok creators out there talking about 0:08:01.840 --> 0:08:04.120 politics or whatever, but like you're not going to get 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.440 a full story in even the best version of that. 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:08.480 It's an introduction. 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:10.560 It's a different thing. And I think people just take 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:12.360 that as like, oh, I learned this from this TikTok 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:15.600 and then yeah, they'll flash up the headlines and the 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:18.920 bullet points with the statistics of whatever issue, but you're 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:22.800 not getting any full story from that sure, And I 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:26.680 think that's like slowly than just degrading how we process 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:29.640 and like comprehend not only information, but it kind of 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.280 flattens out any nuance you could have for anything. And 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:34.520 even a podcast. I think it's the same thing where 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:36.160 it's like you can listen to a three hour long 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:39.400 podcast about health or fitness or whatever or whatever any 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:41.560 of the dumb things we do. I think this all 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:43.840 the time, Like whatever we're doing a forty five minute 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:46.559 episode in this you would be better served if you 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:49.600 read five articles on this in that time. Yeah, well, 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:50.720 like and actually read them. 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:53.560 The amount of information that we learned for the thing 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:55.960 that we're like, this is too much information to put 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:58.600 in the episode, right, Like when we're doing our own research, 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:00.480 it's like we know a lot more information. And obviously 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:04.600 then we're saying in the episodes themselves, so like you're saying, yeah, 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:06.880 it is only scratching the surface. I think people now 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.839 want It's like people just want other people to think 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:13.439 for them. Yeah, that's why people like, oh, I'm watching 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:13.920 the TikTok. 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:15.480 This guy's done all the research already. 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:17.040 He this is what he finds to be the most 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.000 important things, and like that's what people love AI. 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:21.839 Right, It's like it just summarizes things for you. 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:24.800 You don't have to go through read the articles, pull 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:28.520 out the information, go through the studies, you know, actually 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:31.520 read the conclusions, look at the data. Someone has done 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:33.839 all that work for you and you can learn it 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:35.960 in ninety seconds yeah. 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:37.880 Yeah, yeah, or faster if you hit that. 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:39.880 Yeah yeah, you can speed it up. 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.320 So it's like I get and look, I think in 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:46.000 some ways it's great, right, Like, I think we are 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:48.920 at a time where if you want to learn stuff, 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:52.959 you know, there's more information than ever. And for a 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:54.760 lot of things, No, I don't want to read an 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:57.160 article about, you know, some of these topics that I'm 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:00.440 watching TikTok's about. Sometimes the TikTok is enough information and 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:02.880 it's not something I care that deeply about, and it's 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:04.880 something like, oh, I'm a little bit informed about this 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:06.800 thing and I would be not informed at all about 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:08.520 it if there were not a TikTok about it because 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:09.440 I wouldn't read an article. 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:11.839 Yeah, they're not totally useless, but yeah, it's just a 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:12.400 different thing. 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:14.960 But it can't be everything. 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:17.800 Yeah, I mean I think it's just a big cultural thing, 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:20.280 like it just not pushed whether we can talk about 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:22.640 school curriculum. But I just think like we don't really 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:26.000 value people actually having real deep knowledge about things at all, 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:28.880 because even just think about something silly where it's like 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.640 like the performative mail meme really annoyed me because it's 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.520 like it implies that like, of course, like yeah, of 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:37.600 course there's gonna be some guy in college who like 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:40.440 gets into some like Joan Didion so he can talk 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:42.200 to the cute girl at the coffee shop, but like 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:45.600 to act like any guy sitting at a park reading 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:47.720 is doing that not because he wants to read, but 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:49.840 because he's trying to get laid. It's just like that 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:51.640 could be part of it, but like it just like, 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:53.520 well shows how the bar well it just show Yeah, 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:55.280 it just shows. Like I think to me, it more 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:58.520 says like anyone saying that can't ever comprehend wanting to 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.439 spend their free time spend I think fifteen minutes reading 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:03.760 a book. So instead they're like, oh, it would be 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:05.400 a lot cool if he was staring at his phone 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.400 watching a dumb ass talk about nothing. It's like, yeah, 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:09.719 like that's cool. 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:11.520 Projection. 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.560 We don't incentivize people to read. Yeah, like some I 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:16.640 have run into this and I you know, I should 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:18.719 be paying some more money. But like I'll be like, yeah, 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:20.240 I want to read more about this thing and it's 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:22.880 paywalld and I'm like all right, well never mind. Yeah, yeah, 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:25.400 just the search for information stops there. 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:29.439 Yeah, that's that's a good point too, right. It's getting 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:30.880 harder to access. 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:35.080 High quality good yeah, the good stuff information. So what 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:36.560 I want to do is I want to find out 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:40.640 is this literacy declined real? What does it mean? And 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:42.720 what can we do to combat it if it actually 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:45.080 is a real problem. I'm going to talk to a 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:47.880 teacher first, then an author, and then a scholar who's 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.560 looked into this data to find out what's actually going on. 0:11:51.800 --> 0:12:00.800 Well done, after the break, after the break, that's right, all. 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:02.400 Right, fellas. I need you to help me with a 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:04.560 problem that I got. You know, usually we're the ones 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:06.840 helping other people with their problems. But I'm about to 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.160 go abroad and I'm going to watch Met games. Noah, 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:10.000 How can I watch them? 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:10.679 That's a tough one. 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:12.880 Maybe get a really large telescope. 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:14.920 I don't think that's the best way to do it. Manny, 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:16.760 Do you have any solutions on how I can watch 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:17.240 Mets games? 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:17.640 You broad? 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.160 I think I've got a slightly more practical solution for you, Devin. 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:24.920 If you use Nord VPN, you'll be able to change 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:28.120 the location of your laptop's IP address and watch the 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:29.840 content with no problem. 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:32.640 What about my privacy online? I'm worried someone's watching me. 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:35.000 First of all, no one is watching you, Noah. 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So the first couple interviews that I 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:54.760 want to share are with people who are active in 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:56.360 the children's literacy space. 0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:58.040 I'm Kelsey Kladbalter. 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:02.360 I've been teaching English for This is my eleventh year 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:06.680 now and I've taught in both Chicago and Minnesota. 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:09.360 I teach freshman and juniors right now. 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:13.120 Kelsey aka Miss C has a big following on TikTok, 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:15.360 where she shares what it's like to teach kids today. 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:17.480 I have an idea that has been germinating for a 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:19.480 while and it has taken hold of my brain, and 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.560 it's called Nineties Classroom. The idea is simple, what if 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:25.480 next year I do everything within my power to revive 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.960 the spirit of the nineties in my classroom, to bring 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:30.400 back the best parts of being a student and a 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:31.400 teacher in that era. 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:32.800 Mind you, this was. 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:36.720 Pre phones, pre chromebooks, pre AI, pre state testing. 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:38.080 I think here's my vision. 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:43.080 Extremely limited technology, books everywhere, over stuffed couch in the corner. 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:45.760 The room's bustling with human interaction. I feel like this 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:48.400 is doable. I do have the affliction of believing everything's 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:53.680 doable for me, but this one, especially nineties classroom, let's. 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:53.960 Do it. 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:55.480 So. 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:58.640 According to measures like the nation's report card, reading and 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:01.200 math levels have declined to their lowest level in like 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.320 over twenty years. Have you seen this in your experience 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:05.720 teaching over the past few years. 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.160 Definitely, I mean I think just in like I said, 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:12.400 my eleven year career, I've even noticed a decline. But 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:15.800 I think the comparison most millennial teachers draw is just 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:19.280 comparing our own educational experience where many of us were 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:21.480 like very avid readers, and also there is a pretty 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.240 high expectation for how much and how well we should 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:27.920 be reading to what we're seeing now with high school 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:32.000 age students. I've been at a couple schools where we 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:34.200 were told, like, we do not teach novels. 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:36.920 We teach excerpts. We teach short texts. 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:39.800 Students can read full length novels that they choose to, 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:42.040 but we don't teach novels. It's a waste of time 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:46.920 being that is very frustrating because you can see how 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:50.880 districts are directly contributing to the decline in students being 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.040 able to engage with longer form texts. 0:15:53.680 --> 0:15:55.720 Is it a shift because they want to just focus 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:57.920 on maybe getting better test scores and they think that's 0:15:57.960 --> 0:15:59.320 an easy way to do it, or do they think 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:02.720 it's more like the kids won't read longer books, so 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:04.280 let's just not even try. 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:06.360 I think it's both. I think it's both for sure. 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:09.600 I think there's definitely the element of students will do 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:13.920 better on standardized tests if we drill them with these 0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:18.200 short form passages and the questions they'll see on those tests. 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:24.080 I think the instinct is understandable, But the consequences of 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:26.920 years and years of a curriculum like this is really 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:27.840 really negative. 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:30.160 So I mean the ironic thing too, is the scores 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:31.080 aren't even going up. 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:33.240 Yeah, you spend more time. 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.520 Like you're doing all this to get what the kids 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.360 will do for the test scores and then going down. 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:42.520 So then I kind of asked about that, the kind 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:44.280 of question about like, well, it's a modern world. 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:44.920 Maybe we're just. 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:46.880 Evolving in a different way and we don't need this 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:48.000 skill as much. 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:51.920 Yeah, I think I've had I've been in a lot 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:53.960 of arguments with people about this. I'm just recalling a 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:56.880 conversation I had a few years ago at another school 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:59.600 where I taught, and I was arguing with the math 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:03.480 teacher who basically said, anything students need to learn they 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:07.480 can learn from YouTube videos, Like anything you need to 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:09.280 know how to do, you don't need to read a book. 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:11.040 You can watch YouTube video. 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:14.520 And my argument to that was just this idea of 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:19.439 learning as a technical how to is really really different 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:21.120 from how I conceive of learning right. 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:23.160 I think, like the beauty of a. 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:25.639 Long form text and being able to immerse yourself in 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:31.640 a completely different perspective. It builds empathy, it broadens your worldview, 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:33.960 It just does so many things that I think a 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:37.760 YouTube video on how to fix a faucet is like 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:40.320 not even in the same category of what we're talking 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:45.280 about here. I guess the idea there is an idea 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:49.240 that you should gain something tangible from reading, right, that 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.199 you should leave with a piece of knowledge that you 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:54.600 can then implement in the world and it will help. 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.520 You in some way. And I think the goal and. 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:02.000 Purpose of reading is so much more and kind of 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:05.040 amorphous and ill defined. So I get why schools may 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:09.320 be resistant to teach something that it's really hard to 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.880 explain how this actually helps students, But the people who 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:16.280 believe that it does are really passionate about saying. 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:16.760 Yes, it does. 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:22.360 Let's talk a little bit more about generally, like the phones. 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.280 Do you think that's a big piece of why maybe 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:29.680 they're not able to pay attention to long form books anymore. 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:30.080 For sure. 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:32.679 I mean, I have really really great students, So like 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.399 right now, we're reading a Gabrielle Garcia Marquez book in 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:41.040 my advanced literature class, and students will read parts of 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:44.800 the book and then they'll just tell me I didn't 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:47.080 understand any of that, and we'll try to kind of 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.240 go through and break down why. And it's not actually 0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:54.000 a comprehension issue. It's like a distraction issue. So I'm like, okay, 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:56.640 this sentence, I'll read it aloud and they'll be like, oh, 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.119 I didn't see that when I was reading it. I'm like, okay, 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:01.720 but when I read it to you, you didn't understand it, right, 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:05.280 And they're like, yeah, totally. So it's like they are 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:07.720 even self aware that as they're reading, they're kind of 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.160 zoning out. Their brains are going a million different places. 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.640 It's something I experience as well as like a very 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:15.439 online person. When I am sitting down at night and 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:17.800 trying to read, The first ten minutes are just like 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:20.159 my brains everywhere, and then I can finally kind of 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:23.640 get into a flow state, so I can't even imagine 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:28.000 what they're dealing with as growing up. You know, many 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:31.000 of them are self proclaimed iPad kids, right, like raised 0:19:31.000 --> 0:19:34.359 on iPads. Trying to sit down and like immerse yourself 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:35.600 in a book is really challenging. 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:40.120 It's so fascinating. I mean, even in our conversation about 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:43.320 the importance of reading, like, I definitely do find it 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:45.440 a little bit harder to read than I did when 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:48.959 I was like earlier life. Sure, and I'll have to 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:51.600 like like go back and read a page again or like. 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:53.760 And I think probably it does have a lot to 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:57.480 do with how we consume information and other aspects of 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:01.360 our lives, like in social media. So you know, on 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:03.199 one hand, it's like, damn, I wish these kids were 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:05.080 reading more. On the other hand, you kind of can't 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:07.000 blame them. It's like the world they grew up in. 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:09.760 Oh yeah, like you were saying, it's like so hard 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:11.840 for us to pay attention. Like even if I'm reading 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:14.560 a book, a printed book, Yeah, every couple pages, I'll 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:17.080 stop and look at my phone, nothing going on. It's like, 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:20.160 you know, and that's like I feel like I'm actually 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.000 pretty good at reading every day something. 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:27.480 I agree now it is, Yeah, I hear her. I 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:29.840 think that there is a lot of finger pointing. That's 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:32.320 why I'm like, for me, it's like not about the 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:36.680 kids not reading, it's about changing the expectations to not 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:42.000 have them read because it's like, yeah, it's tough to read, period, 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:45.440 It's gonna be even tougher to read if there's no. 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:47.160 Expectation of you to read. Yeah. 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.159 Yeah if I if I was not assigned books in 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:52.320 high school to read, I don't know how much reading 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:52.960 I would be. 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:54.119 Doing in high school. 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:55.959 So it's not like they say, like these kids are 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:59.000 so much dumber, like they don't have what I had. 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:01.320 It's just sort of like, oh, you don't expect them 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:03.600 to do the things right and they're not going to 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:03.920 do it. 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:06.800 Lastly, I asked Kelsey, what does she think would help 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:07.280 fix this. 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:10.360 I think it comes down to tension. 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:13.159 Like I think a lot of teachers myself for a 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:15.840 long time in my career to avoid any kind of tension, 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:20.720 and I'm unfortunately like to help students read better, they 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:24.880 have to do the very unpleasant work of sitting there 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:28.679 and actually forcing themselves to read, and you, as the teacher, 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:30.720 have to do the very unpleasant work of like calling 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:32.960 out when they're not or being like all right, y'all. 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:36.119 We are reading this book right now. We are five 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:38.159 minutes in, and I see no one as looking at 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:40.639 the page like what is going on. A lot of 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:43.800 us two in our teaching have really been fed this 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:46.199 idea that everything has to be like super glitzy and 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:48.359 engaging all the time, and that students should be like 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:52.400 on the edge of their seat, like doing fun collaborative activities. 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:56.359 And I just think, like, I know, kids aren't going 0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:58.480 to read at home, so we're going to read and 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:02.040 discussing class, and I think that can make things feel 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:06.000 a little bit dull and even ten sometimes, But I 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:07.000 think it's worth it. 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:11.400 As far as maybe bigger picture, like whether it's from 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:14.000 a I don't know if it's a government policy standpoint. 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:16.400 Do you think there's things that could be coming from 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:20.399 a higher level that could help get these literacy rates up. 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:21.520 Do you think it would be a change in the 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:23.920 testing or what sort of programs might work. 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:28.800 Curriculum that emphasizes the importance of long form texts is necessary. 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:31.719 I'm actually really lucky to teach at an IB school, 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:35.080 and the IB curriculum is designed around a variety of 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:37.560 long form and short form texts. But you really deep 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:40.159 dive into certain authors. So like, for example, when students 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:43.639 study poetry, they study a set of poems by one author, 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:45.960 and that's like a really cool opportunity to go deep 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:48.240 into their style. You also have to read like a 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:50.959 certain number of novels, a certain number of dramas, and 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:54.400 I think that is really really beneficial for students other 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:58.000 schools that have not had that type of curriculum that 0:22:58.040 --> 0:22:59.879 have more pushed like the test prep thing. 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:01.480 I feel like the test prep. 0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:03.680 Model is what we really need to move away from, 0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:07.040 and that is definitely something that can be influenced, like 0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:08.600 at the state and policy level. 0:23:12.560 --> 0:23:14.800 I like this what she said. I think, you know, 0:23:15.000 --> 0:23:15.720 I read for fun. 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:18.199 I don't think it's boring to read for fun, but 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:21.119 I do think there is that tension that, like, sometimes 0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:25.200 you don't want to read. Sometimes I force myself to 0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:26.800 read when I'm like not in the mood to read 0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:29.240 because I'm just like, yeah, I could scroll on my 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:32.679 phone for TikTok for thirty minutes, or I can, you know, 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:35.960 read this chapter of this book, and like I'll feel 0:23:36.000 --> 0:23:37.919 better after reading the chapter of the book than I 0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:41.359 will after scrolling TikTok. Definitely, but it takes, you know, 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:43.720 like she's saying, sometimes, you know, it takes a little 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:45.359 bit to get into it. You know, you have to 0:23:45.400 --> 0:23:47.520 kind of have to force yourself like, Okay, I gotta focus. 0:23:47.560 --> 0:23:49.280 I gotta like put my head down and do this. 0:23:49.920 --> 0:23:52.480 You know, no one is We've never been on TikTok 0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:55.200 or you know, Instagram or whatever and been like I 0:23:55.280 --> 0:23:58.920 really gotta get my mind and yeah, you know, it's 0:23:59.000 --> 0:24:02.840 just like yeah, yeah, we're doing it. 0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:03.719 Yeah. 0:24:03.760 --> 0:24:06.439 So I think there is that discipline, and it like 0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:09.280 you will get to a place that is rewarding and 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:11.840 will feel like you know, like we're talking about, you 0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:14.840 get engrossed in these worlds, but it takes more time 0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:17.560 to truly get into it. 0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:18.800 And I think it. 0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:21.960 I'm glad that she's like, you know, forcing those kids 0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:25.160 to have discipline and just like shut up and read 0:24:25.240 --> 0:24:27.440 in class. And it's like, yeah, we can do all 0:24:27.440 --> 0:24:31.440 that collaborative fun stuff once you read the book, and 0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:33.119 if you read at home, we wouldn't have to do this. 0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:34.320 Yeah, right. 0:24:35.040 --> 0:24:37.479 So next up, I spoke to number one New York 0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:40.920 Times bestselling children's book author Jason Reynolds. He's written books 0:24:40.920 --> 0:24:43.680 such as Long Way Down, Ghost and many, many more. 0:24:43.840 --> 0:24:47.840 Jason has also received the Newberry Honor and NAACP Image Award, 0:24:48.080 --> 0:24:49.919 just to name a few billet points on his resume. 0:24:50.080 --> 0:24:50.439 I wanted to. 0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:53.840 Speak to Jason in particular because of his book Soundtrack, 0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:56.479 which was originally released in twenty twenty five as an 0:24:56.480 --> 0:24:59.679 audiobook only. I wondered, in a time of a so 0:24:59.800 --> 0:25:03.439 called literacy crisis, why would you publish something only as audio. 0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:06.040 It turns out it started off as a traditional print 0:25:06.080 --> 0:25:07.280 novel unpublished. 0:25:08.000 --> 0:25:11.440 I'd written a novel a decade ago that sat in 0:25:11.520 --> 0:25:15.399 a drawer, right, I wrote this thing, and for whatever 0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:17.439 reason my publishers at the time, I don't know if 0:25:17.440 --> 0:25:20.320 they didn't see it right, they didn't see the vision 0:25:20.320 --> 0:25:22.960 of the story, or if there are other stories that 0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:26.199 I'd written sort of you know, took precedence right, And 0:25:26.280 --> 0:25:29.040 so after while, the book kept getting bumped, and eventually 0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:34.199 it just kind of set and you know, precatorial drawer. 0:25:34.640 --> 0:25:37.440 Years later, a contact of his at Penguin Random House 0:25:37.480 --> 0:25:41.440 Audio was looking for original audio projects, and Soundtrack, which 0:25:41.480 --> 0:25:45.120 is a book about music, was released into the world anyway. 0:25:45.720 --> 0:25:45.960 Now. 0:25:46.080 --> 0:25:49.280 Soundtrack is also available in print, but very much reads 0:25:49.280 --> 0:25:52.479 like an audio first project. And Jason's focus was on 0:25:52.520 --> 0:25:55.600 the format serving the story. He used this example of 0:25:55.600 --> 0:25:57.560 an older fellow you might be familiar with. 0:25:59.080 --> 0:26:03.280 I love Shakespeare, and sometimes I wonder just how much 0:26:03.320 --> 0:26:06.000 of a disservice we have done by reading it so 0:26:06.400 --> 0:26:10.199 often and not seeing it ever right when it was 0:26:10.280 --> 0:26:13.160 meant to be seen. You know, it's easier to understand 0:26:13.240 --> 0:26:16.840 if you could just see it, but instead we're like 0:26:16.920 --> 0:26:18.640 studying it line for line, you know. 0:26:19.400 --> 0:26:22.199 Which is helpful, but maybe helpful after we already kind 0:26:22.200 --> 0:26:22.440 of know. 0:26:22.440 --> 0:26:24.640 After we see it exactly exactly. 0:26:27.760 --> 0:26:29.800 Why I asked what he thought about, you know, audiobooks, 0:26:30.240 --> 0:26:31.720 people who look down on them. 0:26:32.200 --> 0:26:35.560 People are just so weird about about that. Right. It's 0:26:35.640 --> 0:26:37.400 like if you give a baby a bottle of milk, 0:26:37.400 --> 0:26:40.480 this account is eating, yes, you know what I mean, 0:26:41.200 --> 0:26:44.440 and the nourishment that that milk is having is it's 0:26:44.480 --> 0:26:49.000 still valuable, whether it's being liquefied or whether it's something 0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:52.240 that has to be cheated. That the nutrients are the nutrients, right, 0:26:52.320 --> 0:26:55.480 And so I don't like it, and I think it's 0:26:55.480 --> 0:26:57.760 just weird that leadism around like what the book is 0:26:57.800 --> 0:27:00.400 supposed to be and by the way, the and why 0:27:00.440 --> 0:27:03.240 I feel that this sort of there's just weird and 0:27:03.320 --> 0:27:05.600 leadism is because I actually don't think that people look 0:27:05.680 --> 0:27:09.400 at literature or at books quote unquote books as art. 0:27:10.119 --> 0:27:12.919 I think they look at them as as sort of 0:27:12.920 --> 0:27:16.040 intellectual touchdowns. And it's the only of all the art mediums, 0:27:16.040 --> 0:27:17.800 by the way, I would argue that it might be 0:27:17.840 --> 0:27:23.360 the only one that is this way. People put boundaries 0:27:23.560 --> 0:27:26.159 on even the container that a story can be, and 0:27:26.240 --> 0:27:29.320 let alone boundaries on the stories themselves, And so I 0:27:29.359 --> 0:27:31.560 think all of it is foolish. Either we want the 0:27:31.560 --> 0:27:34.200 world to have stories or we don't. Either we want 0:27:34.200 --> 0:27:37.359 to make them super accessible, or we want to create 0:27:37.440 --> 0:27:39.680 gates around them so that only a few of us 0:27:39.720 --> 0:27:42.520 have an opportunity to access them. Either we're going to 0:27:42.560 --> 0:27:44.960 complain about how we want them to be at the 0:27:45.000 --> 0:27:48.800 forefront of culture, right And if we complain about it, 0:27:48.840 --> 0:27:50.600 then we fight to make it so that they are 0:27:50.640 --> 0:27:54.360 at the forefront of culture by making them accessible and changing, 0:27:54.600 --> 0:27:57.520 and by creating multiple formats in which they can live. 0:27:58.040 --> 0:28:00.920 Or we sort of throw sts from the other side 0:28:00.960 --> 0:28:04.080 of the road with our you know, our arms full 0:28:04.240 --> 0:28:08.360 of you know, paper tones, you know, and pat ourselves 0:28:08.359 --> 0:28:10.280 on the back of that way for having done the 0:28:10.320 --> 0:28:14.199 hard work quote unquote let alone. People don't realize how 0:28:14.280 --> 0:28:17.119 much concentration it requires to also listen to a book. 0:28:17.160 --> 0:28:18.920 Oh right, yeah, yeah, that's a big thing. 0:28:20.119 --> 0:28:22.760 But it's just nonsense and like silly ways for people 0:28:22.800 --> 0:28:25.680 to sort of figure out ways to separate themselves intellectually. 0:28:25.720 --> 0:28:27.040 And so I'd rather not even our tea. 0:28:34.000 --> 0:28:36.080 Yeah, I think it would be beautiful if we were 0:28:36.119 --> 0:28:39.320 saying we can't get kids to read, they're just listening 0:28:39.400 --> 0:28:40.160 to audiobooks. 0:28:40.480 --> 0:28:42.640 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:28:42.160 --> 0:28:44.520 I think you know, I think that'd be a pretty 0:28:44.520 --> 0:28:45.480 good place for us to be. 0:28:45.840 --> 0:28:46.640 Yeah, of course. 0:28:47.080 --> 0:28:49.200 Next I asked the big question, do you believe we're 0:28:49.200 --> 0:28:52.760 in a reading crisis? Here's what Jason Reynolds had to say. 0:28:53.320 --> 0:28:56.000 Do I believe we're in a reading crisis? I think 0:28:56.040 --> 0:28:58.360 globally we're in a reading crisis, and I think there 0:28:58.360 --> 0:29:00.200 are lots of things that we could maybe put to 0:29:00.400 --> 0:29:03.480 figure out what is causing the crisis. It's impossible for 0:29:03.560 --> 0:29:08.040 us to deny the impacts of technology. It's simply because 0:29:08.400 --> 0:29:13.280 of the injection of hyperstimulation. And you know, it's like, yo, 0:29:13.360 --> 0:29:17.320 I have so many other things to do. There was 0:29:17.360 --> 0:29:22.400 a point in the world where there was theater, cinemaup, radio, 0:29:23.120 --> 0:29:26.960 eventually television, and then there was the book. And the 0:29:27.080 --> 0:29:29.120 only one of those things that you that you could 0:29:29.240 --> 0:29:32.200 entertain yourself on the go with would have been in 0:29:32.240 --> 0:29:34.360 the book. But book as an object to have on 0:29:34.480 --> 0:29:37.480 the body, on the person in a way that now 0:29:37.560 --> 0:29:41.200 the phone is and in that laptop and on that 0:29:41.280 --> 0:29:47.080 phone is the world a Collido scope of distraction. And 0:29:47.080 --> 0:29:48.720 by the way, we talk about this in this way 0:29:48.760 --> 0:29:50.600 because I write for kids, we always talk about young 0:29:50.680 --> 0:29:52.800 people because we see and I get why I write 0:29:52.800 --> 0:29:54.160 the stakes or how we want to make sure that 0:29:54.160 --> 0:29:58.640 they are literate. So like it makes sense, but the 0:29:58.680 --> 0:30:01.520 majority of adults don't read. It could even be argue 0:30:02.200 --> 0:30:06.440 that they read less because they don't have to. So 0:30:06.480 --> 0:30:08.400 then there are other questions that one must ask. Right 0:30:08.480 --> 0:30:11.080 Number one, as reading being modeled in the home, we 0:30:11.200 --> 0:30:15.160 be blaming kids. It's always like, man, those kids, they're 0:30:15.160 --> 0:30:18.080 not they just don't read anymore, man, And it's like, well, yes, 0:30:18.320 --> 0:30:20.320 and we should sort of sort this out. But I 0:30:20.320 --> 0:30:22.360 think there are other questions that we have to ask ourselves. 0:30:22.480 --> 0:30:25.480 Like I've heard I've had arguments around like expectations that 0:30:25.480 --> 0:30:27.840 we should keep expectations high for young people so that 0:30:27.840 --> 0:30:30.360 they can lead to expectations. I don't disagree with that. 0:30:30.440 --> 0:30:33.320 I just think we need to also recalibrate what the 0:30:33.320 --> 0:30:35.560 baseline is to meet them where they are for this 0:30:35.720 --> 0:30:38.480 moment in this culture, at this particular era of society. Right, 0:30:38.640 --> 0:30:41.280 That's all I'm saying. Right, So, like, so like if 0:30:41.280 --> 0:30:44.200 we're if we're recalibrating the baseline, then maybe we maybe 0:30:44.240 --> 0:30:50.040 we don't start with Melville or Hidden Way or start back, right, 0:30:50.720 --> 0:30:53.360 Maybe maybe we start with something that feels a little 0:30:53.360 --> 0:30:55.920 more contemporary and something and that feels a little more fresh. 0:30:55.960 --> 0:30:57.640 Maybe we start with me, or we start with some 0:30:57.720 --> 0:31:01.160 of our contemporaries and partners. Right, they love Captain Underpants, 0:31:01.400 --> 0:31:03.880 And I know everyone's like, but that's not literature. It's 0:31:03.960 --> 0:31:08.880 like it is it not? If Pilki got millions of 0:31:09.000 --> 0:31:12.120 kids to read, you know what you think? Because because 0:31:12.120 --> 0:31:13.800 no one had a problem with Cat and the Hat, 0:31:14.120 --> 0:31:15.960 no one had a problem with the silliness and the 0:31:16.000 --> 0:31:19.760 goofiness of Doctor Seuss back back then, especially like we 0:31:19.760 --> 0:31:22.680 didn't have any issues with that, why not lean into 0:31:23.000 --> 0:31:24.360 dog Man and like, why not? 0:31:26.960 --> 0:31:28.600 That's how I got my brother to read, Like when 0:31:28.600 --> 0:31:30.320 he was younger, he wouldn't want to read anything else. 0:31:30.320 --> 0:31:32.080 We got him into the Diary ver One Can and 0:31:32.200 --> 0:31:33.040 Captain Underpants. 0:31:33.160 --> 0:31:34.600 Yeah, you gotta level up. 0:31:34.720 --> 0:31:34.960 Yeah. 0:31:35.280 --> 0:31:37.560 Lastly, Jason told me an anecdote about how such an 0:31:37.560 --> 0:31:40.960 intense focus on data and numbers can result in negative outcomes. 0:31:41.240 --> 0:31:44.200 I'd done an event at Forbes years ago. They were 0:31:44.240 --> 0:31:46.720 talking about spreadsheets. It's all very cut and dry, bottom 0:31:46.800 --> 0:31:49.000 line mathematics. Right, this is what, this is what the 0:31:49.080 --> 0:31:51.600 chart show. We're doing projections, we're doing this. There was 0:31:51.640 --> 0:31:54.120 a mantra they kept saying where they said, the numbers 0:31:54.520 --> 0:31:56.840 are all that counts, right, the numbers. And then it 0:31:56.880 --> 0:31:58.840 was my turn to speak, and I said, you know, 0:31:58.920 --> 0:32:02.320 that's something that then the world that scares me if anyone, 0:32:02.320 --> 0:32:04.760 if I ever heard anyone say the numbers are the 0:32:04.800 --> 0:32:07.080 only thing that counts, I say, because if you look 0:32:07.120 --> 0:32:10.200 at the numbers, the numbers will say tell you something 0:32:10.320 --> 0:32:14.040 like kids, and you know, especially let's say twenty twelve, right, 0:32:14.040 --> 0:32:17.880 they'll say kids in black communities aren't reading. Right, black 0:32:17.920 --> 0:32:23.680 boys especially I'm reading. Publishers say based on the numbers, right, 0:32:23.760 --> 0:32:26.240 if black boys aren't reading, then we need not publish 0:32:26.320 --> 0:32:29.400 books about black boys because they don't read, So it'll 0:32:29.400 --> 0:32:31.480 be a waste of our time to publish books about 0:32:31.520 --> 0:32:34.880 black boys because that's what the numbers say. Until you 0:32:34.920 --> 0:32:38.560 get somebody with a different interpretation of the numbers. And 0:32:38.680 --> 0:32:40.320 if I walk in that room and I see those 0:32:40.360 --> 0:32:43.600 same numbers, I say, black boys aren't reading. So we 0:32:43.640 --> 0:32:47.400 should probably publish books about black boys so that they 0:32:47.400 --> 0:32:49.920 could read. But we can bring them in. Maybe they're 0:32:49.960 --> 0:32:53.600 not reading because there is a deficit when it comes 0:32:53.600 --> 0:32:56.320 to them reading things they feel directly connected too. And 0:32:56.320 --> 0:32:58.280 the people will say, well they you know, kids shouldn't 0:32:58.320 --> 0:33:00.840 have to feel directly connected to this, that and the third. 0:33:01.080 --> 0:33:02.000 Not every kid does. 0:33:02.040 --> 0:33:05.200 But if we're paying attention to what's going on, maybe 0:33:05.200 --> 0:33:07.719 these are at least some things we should consider. Why 0:33:07.760 --> 0:33:10.280 don't we do tests and study the samples of the 0:33:10.320 --> 0:33:12.600 books that I'm working and say, well, if long Way 0:33:12.640 --> 0:33:14.840 Down works in a particular way, why does it work, 0:33:14.880 --> 0:33:18.120 and how do we figure out how to incorporate this more. 0:33:18.160 --> 0:33:20.560 If ghost is working in a certain way, why does 0:33:20.600 --> 0:33:22.480 it work? If they hate you give work in a 0:33:22.480 --> 0:33:25.240 particular way, why does this book work? And granted you 0:33:25.280 --> 0:33:27.920 can't always get this right because artists are artists. Authors 0:33:27.920 --> 0:33:29.960 are are artists, and they're making the things they're making. 0:33:30.160 --> 0:33:32.240 Don't You don't want to turn this into some. 0:33:32.160 --> 0:33:34.640 Sort of empirical rubric that you repeat over and over 0:33:34.640 --> 0:33:37.000 and over again, because you rob yourself and you rob 0:33:37.080 --> 0:33:39.720 the young people of understanding the beauty and fastness of 0:33:39.760 --> 0:33:42.239 what art could actually be. Right, So I'm not saying that. 0:33:42.240 --> 0:33:45.480 I'm just saying I'm just saying we do have ways 0:33:45.520 --> 0:33:48.760 to study what is happening to figure out how we 0:33:48.800 --> 0:33:52.800 shift curriculum in general that might be a little more engaging. 0:33:52.840 --> 0:33:55.520 I'm not saying that this is the only answer. I'm 0:33:55.560 --> 0:33:58.080 saying that maybe this is the beginning of the bigger answer. 0:33:58.400 --> 0:33:59.680 But I think it's a good point where it's like 0:33:59.720 --> 0:34:02.160 you can look at the stats and then end up 0:34:02.760 --> 0:34:04.600 doing the opposite of what you want by making it 0:34:04.680 --> 0:34:08.280 less appealing. Yeah, whether that's like he's saying, holding certain 0:34:08.320 --> 0:34:12.400 standards for too long or expectations for too long and 0:34:12.440 --> 0:34:14.800 not adjusting them to actually get people to read, carving 0:34:14.800 --> 0:34:17.719 out basically certain groups and being like, well they'll never 0:34:17.760 --> 0:34:20.279 relate to this or something, so why bother that sort 0:34:20.280 --> 0:34:22.600 of thing, when like, obviously that's not true. 0:34:22.760 --> 0:34:25.760 Yeah, he's got a good idea about like packaging reading 0:34:25.840 --> 0:34:28.520 in certain ways because we're not going to be able 0:34:28.600 --> 0:34:30.360 to beat technology, so to speak. 0:34:30.560 --> 0:34:35.120 That was miss c and Jason Reynolds on reading. But 0:34:35.200 --> 0:34:38.040 when we're back after this commercial break, we hear from 0:34:38.040 --> 0:34:42.000 someone who says there is no crisis in reading. Oh 0:34:42.040 --> 0:34:43.400 and we've been looking at this all wrong. 0:34:53.760 --> 0:34:55.840 I'm Manny Noah Devin. 0:34:56.480 --> 0:34:58.239 All right, we're back, So we're talking about the so 0:34:58.320 --> 0:35:02.080 called reading crisis in America. So lastly I talked to 0:35:02.120 --> 0:35:02.840 Paul Thomas. 0:35:03.600 --> 0:35:06.799 I am a professor of education at Furman University, which 0:35:06.800 --> 0:35:09.800 is in Greenville, South Carolina, and probably from my voice 0:35:09.800 --> 0:35:11.719 you can tell I'm from South Carolina. I've been here 0:35:11.800 --> 0:35:14.200 my whole life. I was a high school English teacher 0:35:14.239 --> 0:35:17.279 for eighteen years before I went to higher ed and 0:35:17.480 --> 0:35:19.279 I've been doing this forty two years now. 0:35:20.239 --> 0:35:23.960 Paul says that all these stories, these pessimistic stories, but 0:35:24.040 --> 0:35:26.800 the decline of reading and more specifically the decline of 0:35:26.840 --> 0:35:31.080 reading scores and schools are fundamentally misreading the data and 0:35:31.160 --> 0:35:35.200 misleading the public. He said, we can't read, that's what 0:35:35.239 --> 0:35:38.520 he said data, saying the public is being misled as 0:35:38.560 --> 0:35:41.640 to the severity of the issue. What if we've been 0:35:41.680 --> 0:35:44.120 looking at this wrong. Wow, the entire time. 0:35:44.160 --> 0:35:44.440 I love it. 0:35:44.560 --> 0:35:45.440 I can't wait to hear this. 0:35:46.400 --> 0:35:50.439 Yeah, sit down, if you're listening, sit down, sitting down, 0:35:50.520 --> 0:35:53.279 stop your cars, if you're cooking over now, get a 0:35:53.280 --> 0:35:57.600 school at least all right, here's what Paul had to say. 0:35:57.760 --> 0:36:00.640 There's been all these articles more recent. But also then 0:36:00.680 --> 0:36:02.240 it's like when you do a search for it, these 0:36:02.480 --> 0:36:04.839 kind of come up every every few years. So I'm 0:36:04.880 --> 0:36:07.520 sure you're very well familiar. I'll ask you. Are we 0:36:07.600 --> 0:36:08.960 in a reading crisis? 0:36:10.400 --> 0:36:14.880 No, this is sort of paradoxical. Either we have always 0:36:14.960 --> 0:36:17.520 been in a reading crisis or we've never been in 0:36:17.520 --> 0:36:20.919 a reading crisis. I just don't like the word crisis 0:36:20.960 --> 0:36:24.360 because I always use like the example of the plane 0:36:24.480 --> 0:36:27.360 that the Sulenberg that you know, the crash landing and 0:36:27.440 --> 0:36:32.920 the Hudson, that's a crisis. Everybody's behavior in that was 0:36:33.000 --> 0:36:36.560 extreme because it was needed. So I worry when we 0:36:36.600 --> 0:36:40.480 say crisis, we're going to do extreme things. And that's 0:36:40.480 --> 0:36:43.960 what's happening. And as you mentioned a second ago, almost 0:36:44.040 --> 0:36:46.880 word for word, almost claim for claim, this happened in 0:36:46.880 --> 0:36:48.920 the forties. It happened in the fifties, So I don't 0:36:48.960 --> 0:36:51.960 think we're in a crisis. I just think the situation 0:36:52.120 --> 0:36:56.080 we have with reading is essentially the same it's always been. 0:36:56.840 --> 0:37:04.440 We're underserving certain population of students, and overall, most people 0:37:05.400 --> 0:37:09.760 learn to read and function relatively well in the world, 0:37:10.440 --> 0:37:13.919 and probably read more and can read better than we 0:37:14.480 --> 0:37:19.560 think now those underserved populations like black and brown children, 0:37:19.680 --> 0:37:23.279 multi lingual learners, special needs students, to me, it's a 0:37:23.320 --> 0:37:27.200 crime that we don't serve those students, but we never have. 0:37:27.480 --> 0:37:30.359 That is not some new thing that's been caused by 0:37:30.880 --> 0:37:32.440 a particular reading program. 0:37:32.920 --> 0:37:35.440 So one of these stats that people tend to use 0:37:35.480 --> 0:37:38.320 in these articles is this National report Card. You contend 0:37:38.360 --> 0:37:41.279 that this is being totally misread or misrepresented as far 0:37:41.320 --> 0:37:43.799 as what it's actually measuring and then what the numbers 0:37:43.920 --> 0:37:46.600 are saying. Can you kind of explain what the National 0:37:46.680 --> 0:37:50.520 Report Card is and then how it's being misused when 0:37:50.520 --> 0:37:51.800 we're talking about this crisis. 0:37:56.760 --> 0:38:00.319 We usually use NATE in AEP that's the of the 0:38:00.520 --> 0:38:03.640 letters of the National Assessment of Educational Progress that comes 0:38:03.680 --> 0:38:07.000 out of the Department of Education. The dirty little secret 0:38:07.000 --> 0:38:11.359 about NATEE is it was designed with a little bit 0:38:11.400 --> 0:38:15.360 of intent, probably a lot of intent to make schools 0:38:15.400 --> 0:38:20.640 look bad. The terminology in NATE is very confusing. The 0:38:20.680 --> 0:38:25.480 word that everybody focuses on is proficient. So proficient on 0:38:25.800 --> 0:38:31.640 NATE is at the seventieth percentile that is designed for 0:38:31.760 --> 0:38:35.319 only thirty percent of children to reach. That's the way 0:38:35.400 --> 0:38:39.240 statistics work, that's the way standardized testing works. The misinformation 0:38:39.320 --> 0:38:44.160 I think comes from that. States use the word proficient differently. 0:38:44.880 --> 0:38:48.279 So we give state assessments generally like third grade and 0:38:48.320 --> 0:38:51.840 eighth grade, and then sometimes we've fluctuated, but in high school. 0:38:52.400 --> 0:38:54.440 So when we give a third grade test at the 0:38:54.480 --> 0:38:57.799 state level and we're looking for proficiency, we tend to 0:38:57.840 --> 0:39:01.880 think of that as grade level. So the expectation is 0:39:02.640 --> 0:39:07.759 in South Carolina that ideally all children can be proficient 0:39:08.160 --> 0:39:13.240 in third grade. Those standards for proficient at the state 0:39:13.360 --> 0:39:19.520 level matched the term basic at the NAPE level. So 0:39:19.920 --> 0:39:24.120 the crisis people like journalists and pundits and people trying 0:39:24.120 --> 0:39:27.080 to sell things generally they say that, you know, two 0:39:27.200 --> 0:39:32.920 thirds of students aren't proficient. Well, technically on NAPE that's true. 0:39:34.239 --> 0:39:36.719 It doesn't mean they're not at grade level, and it 0:39:36.880 --> 0:39:41.680 certainly doesn't mean they can't read. Now, historically about a 0:39:41.719 --> 0:39:46.560 third of students sometimes a little more, are below basic 0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:51.440 on NAPE, which certainly may be worth being concerned about. 0:39:52.080 --> 0:39:59.720 Nobody has ever created a standard definition for grade level reading. 0:40:00.080 --> 0:40:02.320 We don't have that in the United States. Every state 0:40:02.400 --> 0:40:05.400 has their own NAPE, has their own and we have 0:40:05.520 --> 0:40:08.480 never sat down as a country and decided what's the threshold. 0:40:09.200 --> 0:40:13.200 Saying that two thirds of students aren't proficient readers is 0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:18.000 at best misleading, and I think purposefully so. I think 0:40:18.040 --> 0:40:20.879 we like for schools to be failing, and I think 0:40:20.920 --> 0:40:23.640 we like as a country, we like for teachers to 0:40:23.680 --> 0:40:25.920 be bad, and we like for students. You know, at 0:40:25.960 --> 0:40:29.640 any point, we all older people all say that kids 0:40:29.640 --> 0:40:32.520 are you know, can't read, don't read, can't do math, 0:40:33.000 --> 0:40:35.759 and it's kind of embarrassing. I mean, just to keep 0:40:35.800 --> 0:40:36.879 saying that over and over. 0:40:40.080 --> 0:40:43.840 What would be the motivation for people making these measures 0:40:43.840 --> 0:40:46.000 to make want the schools to look bad or what's 0:40:46.080 --> 0:40:47.279 kind of Can you kind of tease that out a 0:40:47.280 --> 0:40:47.799 little more. 0:40:48.400 --> 0:40:51.080 I think it's just human nature to idealize what it 0:40:51.160 --> 0:40:53.840 was like when we were young. I try to be realistic. 0:40:53.960 --> 0:40:57.000 I went to junior high in high school in the seventies, 0:40:57.800 --> 0:41:03.400 students were smoking pots in the bathroom in my junior 0:41:03.480 --> 0:41:08.279 high And you cannot tell me that we were a 0:41:08.440 --> 0:41:13.359 brighter generation, that we were more dedicated to learning than 0:41:13.520 --> 0:41:15.960 the students that I taught throughout the eighties and nineties 0:41:15.960 --> 0:41:18.680 and the students that I'm teaching now are just they're brilliant, 0:41:18.840 --> 0:41:23.200 They're very bright human beings. They've had way better education 0:41:23.320 --> 0:41:26.080 than I did. And I think it's just this urge 0:41:26.160 --> 0:41:30.360 to idealize our past, and I think we get a 0:41:30.360 --> 0:41:34.160 little depressed about being older and we want something to 0:41:34.200 --> 0:41:37.080 complain about. Some of it to me too, is I mean, 0:41:37.200 --> 0:41:43.440 just the nature of a capitalist market society. There is profit. 0:41:43.640 --> 0:41:48.279 There's political and financial profit. In crisis, there's political and 0:41:48.320 --> 0:41:53.000 financial profit. Education reform is an industry. Since the early 0:41:53.080 --> 0:41:58.399 nineteen eighties, people have made a lot of money, and 0:41:58.880 --> 0:42:02.840 politicians career have been made. George W. Bush became President 0:42:02.880 --> 0:42:09.040 of the United States almost exclusively own his role as 0:42:09.080 --> 0:42:13.239 a as a as an education governor. Other politicians have 0:42:13.320 --> 0:42:17.319 figured that out. So there's there's profit, human nature, you know, 0:42:17.440 --> 0:42:21.680 idealizing our past, criticizing our current status. I think there's 0:42:21.680 --> 0:42:23.200 a lot of factors that go into it. 0:42:24.040 --> 0:42:26.560 I hear him on the good old days. 0:42:26.760 --> 0:42:31.360 Yeah, but I would say, I don't think my parents 0:42:31.360 --> 0:42:33.840 would have said they've gotten better in education. 0:42:33.520 --> 0:42:38.120 Than I did. They would, I don't know, they do not, Yeah, 0:42:38.160 --> 0:42:39.239 they would not have said that. 0:42:39.440 --> 0:42:43.759 So I do think there is a people love to 0:42:44.040 --> 0:42:46.560 glorify a should say, you know, when they went to 0:42:46.600 --> 0:42:50.520 school and whatever. But I do think that our parents 0:42:50.560 --> 0:42:53.440 would say we got better educations than they did, right, Yeah, 0:42:53.520 --> 0:42:57.000 I don't know if I can say that about my brother. Yeah, 0:42:57.040 --> 0:42:59.400 And you know there's a distance, but it's not that 0:42:59.520 --> 0:43:00.000 much of it there. 0:43:00.360 --> 0:43:00.919 Yeah. Yeah. 0:43:01.320 --> 0:43:04.680 Or like even if reading levels are actually not in 0:43:04.719 --> 0:43:06.640 a crisis, it does seem to be the case that 0:43:06.680 --> 0:43:09.040 we don't even assign books well. 0:43:09.000 --> 0:43:12.800 Yeah, yeah, And to be clear, for on Paul's behalf, 0:43:12.800 --> 0:43:14.320 he's not saying there's nothing to be done and that 0:43:14.360 --> 0:43:15.560 we're doing better. 0:43:15.800 --> 0:43:16.000 Yeah. 0:43:16.080 --> 0:43:18.480 Yeah, I think it's it's like the way we're then 0:43:18.520 --> 0:43:23.160 approaching how to fix this issue is more the issue 0:43:23.160 --> 0:43:25.360 he has, as you'll hear he has lots of problems 0:43:25.400 --> 0:43:27.360 with kind of the way things are going. We go 0:43:27.440 --> 0:43:29.520 pretty deep. First off, you're gonna hear him talking about 0:43:29.520 --> 0:43:33.000 what's called the science of reading. So this isn't just 0:43:33.040 --> 0:43:35.160 like the study of reading. It's it's kind of a 0:43:35.200 --> 0:43:37.600 catch all term for a recent wave of new curriculums 0:43:37.600 --> 0:43:41.520 and teaching styles. Over forty states have passed legislation incorporating 0:43:41.560 --> 0:43:44.320 new programs that fall under this category. I'm sure there's 0:43:44.560 --> 0:43:47.000 tons more we can get into there, obviously, but just 0:43:47.000 --> 0:43:48.839 so when you hear him say science of reading, it's 0:43:48.960 --> 0:43:52.480 he's talking about like a movement and not like studying reading. 0:43:52.680 --> 0:43:56.160 So Paul broke down this science of reading into a 0:43:56.200 --> 0:43:58.560 sort of three pronged multiverse. He's his comic book Guy 0:43:58.600 --> 0:44:02.120 as it says, one is the miracle versus crisis framing, 0:44:03.000 --> 0:44:05.120 two is marketing, and three is research. 0:44:05.800 --> 0:44:08.560 One way I talk about this is the science of 0:44:08.600 --> 0:44:12.239 reading movement is sort of a multiverse. So you've got 0:44:12.440 --> 0:44:17.640 journalists who have two stories. They have crisis and miracle, 0:44:18.080 --> 0:44:22.600 so they're constantly saying education is in crisis, but this 0:44:22.760 --> 0:44:27.600 school or this state is doing miraculous things. I mentioned 0:44:27.600 --> 0:44:31.240 George W. Bush the Texas Miracle, and it's a perfect 0:44:31.280 --> 0:44:35.680 template for what you just asked. It got him huge 0:44:35.760 --> 0:44:41.600 political capital. While George Bush was governor of Texas, there 0:44:41.680 --> 0:44:46.280 was some intense standards in high states testing curriculum reform. 0:44:46.880 --> 0:44:52.480 They raised state testing scores pretty dramatically, and this is 0:44:52.520 --> 0:44:57.400 something that's kind of dangerous. It's really easy to create standards, 0:44:58.560 --> 0:45:02.560 teach to the test, and raised test scores. So at 0:45:02.560 --> 0:45:05.040 the same time he was claiming a miracle and the 0:45:05.120 --> 0:45:08.840 media was kind of eating that up. Researchers in Texas 0:45:08.880 --> 0:45:13.400 scholars education professors looked at the data and noticed at 0:45:13.400 --> 0:45:16.960 the same time that Texas's state scores were going up, 0:45:17.480 --> 0:45:20.960 their NATE scores were going down, and it's harder to 0:45:21.040 --> 0:45:24.920 manipulate those NATE scores, so it was never a miracle. 0:45:25.239 --> 0:45:27.719 And I think, so you get this, the media likes 0:45:27.800 --> 0:45:29.600 crisis miracle, crisis miracle. 0:45:33.680 --> 0:45:35.080 I think that only just scores. It a bit where 0:45:35.120 --> 0:45:37.480 you can teach to the test and get those individual 0:45:37.680 --> 0:45:41.360 scores up, but then the actual like overall reading scores, 0:45:41.400 --> 0:45:44.480 even these ones from NAPE are going down, so it's like, well, 0:45:44.480 --> 0:45:46.840 who's better off. It's like, great, you can take one test, 0:45:46.880 --> 0:45:48.120 but you might not be able to think. 0:45:48.480 --> 0:45:48.600 Ye. 0:45:50.200 --> 0:45:53.239 I think that's a pretty important point. Yeah, So now 0:45:53.280 --> 0:45:55.000 here's the next multiverse. 0:45:55.520 --> 0:45:55.920 Marketing. 0:45:56.280 --> 0:46:01.680 The other multiverse is marketing. Textbook publishers don't really make 0:46:01.719 --> 0:46:04.759 any money if we keep a book that works or 0:46:04.800 --> 0:46:08.279 a program that works. So the weird thing that just 0:46:08.440 --> 0:46:13.160 happened is states have banned all of these reading programs 0:46:13.480 --> 0:46:17.320 Units of Study by Lucy Halkins, stuff by Fontas and Pineale, 0:46:17.400 --> 0:46:21.960 which were moderately popular, but the United States has never 0:46:22.040 --> 0:46:26.600 had one reading program. Units of Study at its most 0:46:26.800 --> 0:46:29.799 was in one out of five schools. There's no way 0:46:29.840 --> 0:46:33.080 that it was causing a crisis. But the same companies 0:46:33.080 --> 0:46:36.760 that owned those programs own the new programs that states 0:46:36.800 --> 0:46:40.239 are adopting. In a market society, churn is really important. 0:46:46.640 --> 0:46:50.600 The other multiverse is actual research, and that's the one 0:46:50.680 --> 0:46:53.560 that is really kind of frustrating because a lot of 0:46:53.600 --> 0:46:57.240 times it's behind a paywall. A lot of times research 0:46:57.320 --> 0:47:01.759 is incredibly difficult to read, and scholars have a tendency 0:47:01.800 --> 0:47:04.360 to be very insular. They don't really take it on 0:47:04.480 --> 0:47:08.000 pund themselves to tell people about their research. They do 0:47:08.200 --> 0:47:11.719 their research. The science of reading movement really it kind 0:47:11.719 --> 0:47:14.480 of started around twenty twelve to twenty fourteen, but it 0:47:14.520 --> 0:47:17.920 really took off around twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, twenty twenty. 0:47:18.400 --> 0:47:21.359 But the research is now catching up. There's states where 0:47:21.400 --> 0:47:23.960 you can actually do the research and see what's happening, 0:47:25.000 --> 0:47:28.840 and a couple of weird things about this movement. One, 0:47:29.120 --> 0:47:33.520 there's not a single scholarly publication. There's not a single 0:47:33.600 --> 0:47:38.120 experimental or quasi experimental published study that shows we have 0:47:38.200 --> 0:47:42.879 a reading crisis caused by balance literacy or by reading programs. 0:47:43.360 --> 0:47:47.760 Nobody's done that research. It doesn't exist. And this whole movement, 0:47:48.320 --> 0:47:51.400 which says it's a science of reading, is based on 0:47:51.960 --> 0:47:54.080 the absence of scientific evidence. 0:47:54.840 --> 0:47:57.520 So, for example, Paul said, there's been no research that 0:47:57.600 --> 0:48:00.880 shows that systematic phonics is more effective. Are all students 0:48:00.920 --> 0:48:04.080 for learning comprehension? And of course we want kids to 0:48:04.120 --> 0:48:07.440 be able to understand what they're reading or well, it's 0:48:07.520 --> 0:48:08.920 kind of not really reading. 0:48:08.680 --> 0:48:08.960 Is it. 0:48:12.800 --> 0:48:16.200 Size of reading has attached itself to a thing called 0:48:16.280 --> 0:48:21.160 structured literacy, and structured literacy is scripted curriculum. Weirdly, that 0:48:21.320 --> 0:48:23.959 was a big thing in Texas around the Bush era, 0:48:24.200 --> 0:48:27.520 and it kind of died out because educators saw that 0:48:27.600 --> 0:48:31.160 it was a really bad thing. Scripted curriculum takes away 0:48:31.160 --> 0:48:35.239 teacher autonomy and it also treats every child exactly the same. 0:48:36.200 --> 0:48:38.920 To me, those are the two most damning things about 0:48:38.960 --> 0:48:43.040 the movement. I'm a big advocate for teacher autonomy. Just 0:48:43.080 --> 0:48:46.880 a little side note, seventy to eighty percent of teachers 0:48:46.920 --> 0:48:49.120 of reading or women and we have as a nation 0:48:49.320 --> 0:48:51.719 decided that they have to be told what to do 0:48:51.880 --> 0:48:54.759 and they can't be professionals. And to me, there's a 0:48:54.840 --> 0:48:58.520 huge amount of misogyny in this whole movement, which is 0:48:58.600 --> 0:49:01.759 kind of the sign of the times. Also, these scripted 0:49:01.840 --> 0:49:06.799 curriculum programs have whitewashed the curriculum. We were starting to 0:49:06.920 --> 0:49:11.239 let students read text that they saw themselves in. Yeah, 0:49:11.280 --> 0:49:13.840 you know, girls and children of color, you know, and 0:49:13.880 --> 0:49:16.520 that was a good thing. We weren't doing a great job, 0:49:16.560 --> 0:49:19.640 but it was better. There's several studies out showing that 0:49:19.719 --> 0:49:24.040 these scripted structured literacy programs are going in the opposite direction. 0:49:24.360 --> 0:49:28.080 And you know, text are being kind of muted, and 0:49:28.400 --> 0:49:31.960 we're using the text simply to help children pronounce words. 0:49:32.000 --> 0:49:34.040 We're not worried about the content of it. We're not 0:49:34.080 --> 0:49:38.080 worried about students being engaged. There's a weird thing going 0:49:38.120 --> 0:49:41.799 on on social media where the science of people are 0:49:41.840 --> 0:49:44.560 saying that that kids don't have to like to read, 0:49:44.880 --> 0:49:47.879 and it's kind of weird. They're arguing that if they 0:49:48.120 --> 0:49:50.479 if they learn their phonics, they will they will start 0:49:50.600 --> 0:49:54.279 liking to read. And it's like this weird, I don't know, 0:49:54.320 --> 0:49:57.880 this weird antagonism toward having any choy in reading. 0:49:58.280 --> 0:49:59.959 And Jason was saying this a bit too, of getting 0:50:00.120 --> 0:50:03.240 caught so caught up with the data, Like the issue 0:50:03.280 --> 0:50:07.160 is that people can't and are not reading, Like the 0:50:07.239 --> 0:50:10.879 issue is not that the test scores aren't with it, 0:50:10.920 --> 0:50:13.520 you know, like yeah, yeah, sure, that's a byproduct of it. 0:50:13.520 --> 0:50:16.840 And like I understand wanting tests obviously to measure to 0:50:16.880 --> 0:50:18.120 measure stuff, but. 0:50:18.200 --> 0:50:22.080 We shouldn't be, okay, if the issues the test scores 0:50:22.120 --> 0:50:25.080 are bad, just trying to improve the test scores, right, 0:50:25.160 --> 0:50:29.960 Like the test scores should be reflective of reading, comprehension 0:50:30.640 --> 0:50:33.080 and you know all these other things, not just how 0:50:33.120 --> 0:50:35.440 well people can take the tests. People are really good 0:50:35.480 --> 0:50:39.040 at the test, but they still can't read or comprehend. 0:50:39.600 --> 0:50:41.880 It doesn't really matter what the scores say. 0:50:42.000 --> 0:50:44.719 I asked, what could we do to actually fix this, 0:50:44.960 --> 0:50:47.200 whether you want to call all the crisis or just 0:50:47.200 --> 0:50:48.200 a simple problem. 0:50:48.280 --> 0:50:48.680 Yeah. 0:50:49.120 --> 0:50:51.759 So Jason also mentioned this where it's like we're talking 0:50:51.800 --> 0:50:53.840 about the schools and kids not wanting to read, but 0:50:54.520 --> 0:50:57.920 there's no model for people at home. And Paul got 0:50:57.960 --> 0:51:00.680 to this about the impacts of stuff outside of the 0:51:00.680 --> 0:51:01.799 classroom too. 0:51:02.360 --> 0:51:07.560 Really important research done on what impacts student learning, and 0:51:07.640 --> 0:51:13.120 it's over sixty percent outside of the school schools. I'm sorry. 0:51:13.440 --> 0:51:15.840 I love educator, I'm an educator. I love schools. I 0:51:15.880 --> 0:51:21.680 love education. Schools do not change society. Schools reflect society. 0:51:22.200 --> 0:51:25.920 And we've got this kind of idealistic It was the 0:51:26.040 --> 0:51:29.840 Arnie Duncan nonsense. He was one of the worst Secretaries 0:51:29.880 --> 0:51:33.400 of Education ever. But you constantly talk about game changing. 0:51:33.719 --> 0:51:35.719 This is a game changer. There's kind of a joke 0:51:35.760 --> 0:51:38.920 about this. He said it all the time, and I'm sorry. 0:51:39.000 --> 0:51:43.520 Schools just don't change. They reflect. So a lot of 0:51:43.560 --> 0:51:47.000 these reading scoreres and math scorers are not a reflection 0:51:47.120 --> 0:51:49.560 of the quality of learning or the quality of teaching. 0:51:49.600 --> 0:51:52.879 Their reflection of the negligence of our society. I mean, 0:51:52.920 --> 0:51:56.399 we talked about the Nate data. One fun fact about 0:51:56.520 --> 0:52:00.440 Nate that people ignore the highest scoring ski rules in 0:52:00.480 --> 0:52:07.240 the country. Department of Defense. Why those kids have mills, 0:52:07.600 --> 0:52:11.240 those kids have health care, those kids have a stable home. 0:52:12.320 --> 0:52:16.200 Way above Massachusetts is the highest scoring state. Department of 0:52:16.239 --> 0:52:20.160 Defense is way above them, I mean significantly above them. 0:52:20.560 --> 0:52:23.319 I've seen one article on that, like, we don't, you know, 0:52:23.480 --> 0:52:26.400 we want to talk about Mississippi as you know, defying 0:52:26.440 --> 0:52:28.719 the odds. We don't want to talk about Well, why 0:52:28.719 --> 0:52:32.000 don't we just change the odds. I'm for universal health care, 0:52:32.040 --> 0:52:33.640 but why don't we just have it for children at 0:52:33.719 --> 0:52:36.520 least our families? Like you know, we can start there. 0:52:36.840 --> 0:52:38.320 We need to put everyone in the military. 0:52:39.080 --> 0:52:43.080 Now I'm drafting everyone's a soldier. 0:52:43.120 --> 0:52:43.279 Now. 0:52:44.480 --> 0:52:46.520 So here's my King of the World question. So he 0:52:46.560 --> 0:52:49.080 gets to write the New Worlds for education and to 0:52:49.080 --> 0:52:52.680 get these scores back up, what would he suggest inside 0:52:52.680 --> 0:52:53.960 and outside the classroom? 0:52:54.400 --> 0:52:57.080 It always strikes me as odd that we want children 0:52:57.360 --> 0:53:00.719 when they magically walk through the school door, or to 0:53:00.840 --> 0:53:04.800 pretend their lives don't exist. And I think this is 0:53:04.840 --> 0:53:07.719 a controversial thing to say, but you know, a kid 0:53:07.840 --> 0:53:11.040 is sick or hungry if they don't care about learning 0:53:11.080 --> 0:53:14.160 to read, I think they're making a really rational decision. 0:53:14.480 --> 0:53:17.480 Some colleagues and I several years ago we published a 0:53:17.480 --> 0:53:21.319 book called Social Context Reform. It was a reaction to 0:53:21.400 --> 0:53:24.840 the no excuses kind of idea that there's no excuse, 0:53:24.920 --> 0:53:27.440 we just have to do in school. Poverty is an excuse. 0:53:27.880 --> 0:53:31.040 Social context reform argues that we need social reform before 0:53:31.080 --> 0:53:34.480 worrying about education. So this would include things like universal 0:53:34.560 --> 0:53:38.320 health care, food security, job security, and housing security. 0:53:38.480 --> 0:53:41.359 Now in school, I think there are absolutely things we 0:53:41.520 --> 0:53:44.040 must do, especially at the early grades. I think we 0:53:44.080 --> 0:53:48.279 need smaller class size, particularly once we identify students who 0:53:48.280 --> 0:53:53.080 are struggling, they should be guaranteed two things, small class 0:53:53.120 --> 0:53:56.640 size and an experienced teacher. One of the dirty secrets 0:53:56.640 --> 0:54:02.360 of education is that the bad kids, the struggling kids, 0:54:02.920 --> 0:54:07.919 disproportionately or put in classrooms with beginning teachers. And there's 0:54:08.000 --> 0:54:10.400 kind of an unwritten rule that if you hang around 0:54:10.480 --> 0:54:13.960 as a teacher, they'll give you the good kids. And 0:54:14.040 --> 0:54:16.080 that's kind of criminal to me. I mean, that's just 0:54:16.640 --> 0:54:19.600 it's not a policy, it's just kind of a thing 0:54:19.640 --> 0:54:23.200 that happens. But if our struggling students were guaranteed smaller 0:54:23.239 --> 0:54:27.120 class size and experienced teachers, I think we would see 0:54:27.120 --> 0:54:33.080 some real growth. Now, the problem is when you measure 0:54:33.840 --> 0:54:39.720 teacher impact, it's almost not there. Teacher impact on student 0:54:39.800 --> 0:54:44.799 achievements about one to fourteen percent. It's very small. So 0:54:44.840 --> 0:54:49.040 the problem is it's very hard to measure teacher impact. 0:54:49.600 --> 0:54:53.160 So two things can be true. Teachers are incredibly important, 0:54:53.560 --> 0:54:55.719 and it's not going to show up in the data. 0:54:55.880 --> 0:54:59.200 So as long as we stay obsessed with test scorers, 0:54:59.280 --> 0:55:01.520 we're probably going to miss the good things we could 0:55:01.560 --> 0:55:04.719 be doing. For reading. We need to quit buying programs 0:55:05.040 --> 0:55:07.160 like I mean, we just need to stop it. I mean, 0:55:07.280 --> 0:55:10.719 constantly changing and buying. There's so much money, and I 0:55:10.719 --> 0:55:13.439 think there's a better approach. Oddly, I think we would 0:55:13.440 --> 0:55:16.200 be better off just buying children books. There's a lot 0:55:16.200 --> 0:55:20.160 of research that access to text in the home and 0:55:20.239 --> 0:55:24.520 community and school are strong, strongly correlated with high literacy. 0:55:24.719 --> 0:55:27.560 I've said many times we should start buying every child 0:55:27.719 --> 0:55:30.200 at birth, you know, twenty books a year. Let the 0:55:30.280 --> 0:55:32.640 kid pick ten, let the family pick ten, and then 0:55:33.080 --> 0:55:35.879 the system picks ten. Yeah, and you know, and by 0:55:35.880 --> 0:55:38.520 the time you graduated high school, just imagine everybody would 0:55:38.520 --> 0:55:41.920 have a library. Honestly, that's not that much money, and 0:55:41.920 --> 0:55:44.120 it's probably less money than we're spending on, you know, 0:55:44.120 --> 0:55:45.160 commercial programs. 0:55:45.640 --> 0:55:47.759 My last question was, are you considering a run for 0:55:47.880 --> 0:55:50.680 twenty twenty eight? He said no, But I don't know. 0:55:50.920 --> 0:55:53.640 Maybe we can start it right here well be in 0:55:53.719 --> 0:55:55.880 someone's administration at least. 0:55:55.920 --> 0:55:57.240 I what are you guys thoughts? 0:55:57.960 --> 0:56:01.080 My boy Paul said, we need to look ourselves in 0:56:01.120 --> 0:56:01.560 the mirror. 0:56:01.680 --> 0:56:02.680 Schools are reflection. 0:56:02.719 --> 0:56:08.440 Schools are a reflection, I like that of society. Society around, 0:56:08.800 --> 0:56:11.000 and they're not a projection and a reflection. 0:56:11.160 --> 0:56:14.480 But I think that's show true, is that if we 0:56:14.560 --> 0:56:18.040 as a society valued reading, the kids would be reading. 0:56:18.680 --> 0:56:22.040 Yeah they're not even if the even if the teacher 0:56:22.040 --> 0:56:24.520 didn't assign them books, they would be at home reading. 0:56:24.600 --> 0:56:28.880 If we said reading is as cool as watching tiktoks, 0:56:28.880 --> 0:56:31.480 and we really felt that as a society. 0:56:31.320 --> 0:56:32.120 The kids will be out. 0:56:32.280 --> 0:56:35.120 And that goes to Jason's point too about just like 0:56:35.239 --> 0:56:38.319 the arc of entertainment. And we kept adding these things, 0:56:38.360 --> 0:56:40.760 but you know they don't disappear. But like there's obviously 0:56:40.800 --> 0:56:43.200 benefits to reading a book, you know, just as leisure. 0:56:43.680 --> 0:56:45.880 And yeah, if we don't uphold that anywhere outside of 0:56:46.560 --> 0:56:49.799 clar for the learning, for the test even yeah, like yeah, 0:56:50.080 --> 0:56:50.879 like why would you. 0:56:51.040 --> 0:56:55.000 Yeah, we need to make books sexy again in any 0:56:55.040 --> 0:56:56.480 form any fun. 0:56:56.640 --> 0:57:01.000 Yeah. Yeah, let me be clear, audio books. The issue 0:57:01.040 --> 0:57:02.000 is far beyond reading. 0:57:02.320 --> 0:57:07.000 Yeah, we have a intellectual crisis, brain crisis. 0:57:07.000 --> 0:57:09.719 It's not cool to think about things now. It's not 0:57:09.760 --> 0:57:12.160 cool to do research. It's not cool to be an expert. 0:57:12.360 --> 0:57:15.680 It's not cool to know things now. It's cool to 0:57:15.719 --> 0:57:17.439 not know anything and say whatever you want. 0:57:18.200 --> 0:57:19.240 You need to think about things. 0:57:19.480 --> 0:57:23.080 Yeah, there doesn't seem to be about like a desire 0:57:23.720 --> 0:57:25.080 to be curious about stuff. 0:57:25.280 --> 0:57:26.600 That's a beautiful way to say it. 0:57:26.600 --> 0:57:29.520 It's just like, and why would you be curious about anything? 0:57:29.560 --> 0:57:31.480 It's all like just shown to you on your phone, 0:57:31.560 --> 0:57:35.520 and you know, just like the the incentives are backwards. 0:57:35.720 --> 0:57:39.480 We stopped rewarding curiosity in this society. 0:57:40.920 --> 0:57:42.080 We need free thinkers. 0:57:43.520 --> 0:57:44.400 Not those times. 0:57:45.720 --> 0:57:46.680 Are asking questions. 0:57:46.760 --> 0:57:52.360 Yeah, yeah, questions and answer them in an hour or 0:57:52.440 --> 0:57:55.560 less once a week perfectly on Wednesdays. 0:57:56.000 --> 0:58:01.040 Yeah, a few minutes there for some ads. I mean, 0:58:01.200 --> 0:58:04.280 in many ways, I think we're writing a book basically book. 0:58:04.360 --> 0:58:05.560 Yeah, we write a book a week. 0:58:05.840 --> 0:58:11.800 Shoots the transcript out that's text. Just read the show boom, 0:58:11.960 --> 0:58:14.320 Yeah it give it a shot. Yeah, scroll down you can. 0:58:14.360 --> 0:58:15.880 There's probably a transcript button. 0:58:15.640 --> 0:58:18.480 If you would prefer to read our books every week. 0:58:19.960 --> 0:58:21.919 Who're coming out with the book every week? 0:58:21.920 --> 0:58:30.200 It's crazy publishing publishing as wild these days. No such 0:58:30.240 --> 0:58:33.320 thing as a production of Kaleidoscope content. Our executive producers 0:58:33.360 --> 0:58:35.840 are Kid Osborn and man Gesh hot Cadur. The show 0:58:35.920 --> 0:58:39.320 was created by Mandy Fidel, Noah Friedman, and Devin Joseph Femen. 0:58:39.360 --> 0:58:42.200 Credits song by Manny, mixing by Steve Bone. Thank you 0:58:42.240 --> 0:58:45.640 Steve our guest this week. We're Kelsey, Khalaude Felter, Jason Reynolds, 0:58:45.680 --> 0:58:48.320 and Paul Thomas. Scroll down for links to their work, 0:58:48.440 --> 0:58:50.560 and go to our newsletter at No Such Thing dot 0:58:50.600 --> 0:58:52.760 Show for more, especially if you want to get deeper 0:58:52.760 --> 0:58:54.600 into the research Paul is discussing in the last bit 0:58:54.640 --> 0:58:56.600 of the episode. If you have feedback for us or 0:58:56.640 --> 0:58:59.200 a question, our email is Manny Noah Devin at gmail 0:58:59.240 --> 0:59:01.320 dot com, or you can leave us a voicemail by 0:59:01.320 --> 0:59:03.360 calling the number in our show notes. If you like 0:59:03.440 --> 0:59:05.720 the show, please share it with a friend and leave 0:59:05.800 --> 0:59:08.680 us a five star nice review wherever you listen. It 0:59:08.720 --> 0:59:11.120 really helps us a lot to get to people by 0:59:13.600 --> 0:59:14.560 such things.