WEBVTT - S5 Ep 10 | The Kill Step

0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:14.360
<v Speaker 1>In March twenty fourteen, Judge Lewis A. Caplan issued a

0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:18.920
<v Speaker 1>nearly five hundred page ruling against Donziger and the Lago

0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:23.240
<v Speaker 1>Augerdo plaintiffs, blocking the collection of the nine billion dollar

0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:27.360
<v Speaker 1>Ecuadorian judgment in the US. Judge Caplan cites in the

0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:31.960
<v Speaker 1>summary of his ruling the Cabrera Report, crude outtakes and

0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:36.360
<v Speaker 1>Gera's testimony. He writes that among the various objectives of

0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:41.280
<v Speaker 1>Donziger's pr campaign has been an effort to quote shift

0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:45.120
<v Speaker 1>the focus from the fraud on Chevron and the Lago

0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:48.839
<v Speaker 1>Augrio court to the environmental harm that Donziger and the

0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.600
<v Speaker 1>Lago Augda plaintiff's claim was done in the Oriente. There's

0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.600
<v Speaker 1>an accent on that last e in Oriente in Judge

0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:01.600
<v Speaker 1>Caplan's summary. That's a mistake, which is unford given how

0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:04.959
<v Speaker 1>many of the Ecuadorians we spoke with accused Caplin of

0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:09.840
<v Speaker 1>being racist and or too ignorant about their country, its laws,

0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:13.839
<v Speaker 1>and its language to oversee this case. But the sentiment

0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:18.000
<v Speaker 1>that Caplin expresses here is also really interesting. How dare

0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:20.920
<v Speaker 1>you shift the focus from the fraud committed against a

0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:25.160
<v Speaker 1>company to the damage inflicted on a community, Caplan says,

0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:29.560
<v Speaker 1>we shouldn't be quote unquote distracted by the pollution. Then

0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:32.959
<v Speaker 1>he writes, quote the court assumes that there is pollution

0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:38.320
<v Speaker 1>in the Oriente. On that assumption, Texaco and perhaps even Chevron,

0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:41.440
<v Speaker 1>though it never drilled for oil in Ecuador, might bear

0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:46.640
<v Speaker 1>some responsibility. And yeah, the accent mistake is there on Oriente.

0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:52.120
<v Speaker 1>Throughout this ruling, Caplin continues, quote. In any case, improvement

0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.120
<v Speaker 1>of conditions for the residents of the Oriente appears to

0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:59.600
<v Speaker 1>be both desirable and overdue. But the defendant's effort to

0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:03.800
<v Speaker 1>change the subject to the Oriente, understandable as it is

0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:09.919
<v Speaker 1>as a tactic, misses the point of this case. The

0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:13.359
<v Speaker 1>issue here is not what happened in the Odiente more

0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:17.120
<v Speaker 1>than twenty years ago, and who, if anyone now, is

0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:21.520
<v Speaker 1>responsible for the wrongs then done. It instead is whether

0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:26.080
<v Speaker 1>a court decision was procured by corrupt means, regardless of

0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:31.640
<v Speaker 1>whether the cause was just. An innocent defendant is no

0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:35.560
<v Speaker 1>more entitled to submit false evidence, to co opt and

0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:39.000
<v Speaker 1>pay off a court appointed expert, or to coerce or

0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:42.120
<v Speaker 1>bribe a judge or jury than a guilty one. So

0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:45.040
<v Speaker 1>even if Donziger and his clients had a just cause,

0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.079
<v Speaker 1>and the court expresses no opinion on that they were

0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:51.280
<v Speaker 1>not entitled to corrupt the process to achieve their goal.

0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:57.120
<v Speaker 1>Justice is not served by inflicting injustice. The ends do

0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:03.799
<v Speaker 1>not justify the means. This passage has really stuck with

0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:06.480
<v Speaker 1>me throughout this season and it raises some really big

0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:09.120
<v Speaker 1>questions that we're going to spend these last two episodes

0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:14.120
<v Speaker 1>grappling with what is justice? Where is the line between

0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:18.680
<v Speaker 1>the law and morality? Are there ends that justify means?

0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:22.400
<v Speaker 1>And if so, what kind of means? Welcome back to

0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:26.560
<v Speaker 1>Drill Season five, La Lucha Mangla. I'm Amy Westervelt and

0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:30.440
<v Speaker 1>this is episode ten, The Kill Step. We're going to

0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:33.200
<v Speaker 1>dig into what happened after the Rico judgment and all

0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:50.440
<v Speaker 1>these messy questions. Right after this quick break, I want

0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:53.559
<v Speaker 1>to tell you about one of my personal favorite podcasts.

0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:57.400
<v Speaker 2>It's called Behind the Bastards. You'll see why I love it.

0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:00.200
<v Speaker 2>I want to explain what it is. Behind the Bastards

0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.160
<v Speaker 2>as a twice weekly podcast series from Robert Evans and

0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:08.080
<v Speaker 2>iHeartRadio that looks behind the bad guys in history. There's

0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:11.560
<v Speaker 2>a reason the History Channel has produced hundreds of documentaries

0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:14.559
<v Speaker 2>about Hitler, but only a few about Dwight D. Eisenhower.

0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:20.360
<v Speaker 2>Bad guys and gals are eternally fascinating. Behind the Bastards

0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:23.719
<v Speaker 2>dives in past the cliffs notes of the worst humans

0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:27.400
<v Speaker 2>in history and exposes the bizarre realities of their lives.

0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:30.559
<v Speaker 2>Listeners will learn about the young adult novels that helped

0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:35.480
<v Speaker 2>Hitler form his monstrous ideology, the founder of Blackwater's insane

0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:39.039
<v Speaker 2>quest to build his own air force, the bizarre lives

0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:42.720
<v Speaker 2>of the sons and daughters of dictators, and Saddam Hussein's

0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:47.799
<v Speaker 2>side career as a trashy romance novelist. Host Robert Evans

0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:51.400
<v Speaker 2>has worked as a conflict journalist in Iraq, Ukraine, and Syria.

0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:54.880
<v Speaker 2>He has covered political unrest and violence across the United

0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:58.719
<v Speaker 2>States since twenty sixteen. He also hosts several other popular

0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:02.919
<v Speaker 2>iHeartRadio podcast the Women's War, It Could Happen Here and

0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:06.880
<v Speaker 2>Worst Here Ever episodes throughout every Tuesday and Thursday. Listen

0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:10.080
<v Speaker 2>to Behind the Bastards on the iHeartRadio app or wherever

0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:15.560
<v Speaker 2>you get your podcasts.

0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:25.839
<v Speaker 1>In the wake of its winds against Nicaraguan farmers on

0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.640
<v Speaker 1>Behalf of Dole and against the Ecuadorians on behalf of Chevron.

0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:33.080
<v Speaker 1>Gibson Dunn began referring to its approach on these cases,

0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:36.440
<v Speaker 1>using the US court system to declare a foreign judgment

0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:40.200
<v Speaker 1>fraudulent as the quote unquote kill step. It was sold

0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:43.400
<v Speaker 1>as an effective way to keep multinational corporations out of

0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.880
<v Speaker 1>trouble abroad and has this sort of scorched earth, winner,

0:05:46.960 --> 0:06:02.760
<v Speaker 1>take all, fight to the death feel about it. As

0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.479
<v Speaker 1>soon as the Rico verdict came down, Donziger and his

0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:09.760
<v Speaker 1>appeals lawyer, Dipa Kupta began working on an appeal. Just

0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:12.880
<v Speaker 1>as a reminder, we interviewed Donziger while he was on

0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:16.359
<v Speaker 1>house arrest this summer. He still is, and he would

0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:18.520
<v Speaker 1>often hang his head out the window while we were talking,

0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:21.239
<v Speaker 1>so if you hear some wind or background noise.

0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:24.440
<v Speaker 3>That's why we've contested the evidence every step of the way.

0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:28.120
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I've always proclaimed that this evidence was false. However,

0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:34.160
<v Speaker 3>and this is the rub on appeal. You can contest facts,

0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:40.520
<v Speaker 3>or you can contest law. But under the US appellate system,

0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:46.600
<v Speaker 3>it's usually futile to contest facts because they're almost never overturned.

0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:50.360
<v Speaker 3>The appellate judges don't like to revisit factual determinations by

0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:55.279
<v Speaker 3>a trial judge. So, given that Caplin had written five

0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:58.480
<v Speaker 3>hundred pages and there were dozens and dozens of findings,

0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:03.440
<v Speaker 3>we would have easily used up our entire allotment of

0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:07.919
<v Speaker 3>pages on the appellate brief, you know, formally disputing every

0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:09.680
<v Speaker 3>single one of his hundred findings.

0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:14.080
<v Speaker 1>Instead, Gupta decided to focus on the entire application of

0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:16.560
<v Speaker 1>RICO to this case as inappropriate.

0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:19.440
<v Speaker 3>So we chose to focus on that, but we contested

0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:22.320
<v Speaker 3>the facts every step of the way. We just didn't

0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:25.320
<v Speaker 3>formally ask for Kaplan to be overturned on the facts.

0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.800
<v Speaker 1>After the appeal had been filed, while the court was deliberating,

0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:33.000
<v Speaker 1>Garrett testified in front of the Arbitral Tribunal and admitting

0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:37.280
<v Speaker 1>to having lied in a few instances during his RICO testimony.

0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:41.680
<v Speaker 3>So when Gara admitted lying during the pendency of the

0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:47.360
<v Speaker 3>appeal of Caplan's decision, we immediately took this new information,

0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:52.000
<v Speaker 3>as evidenced by a transcript, and we submitted it to

0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:55.320
<v Speaker 3>the Federal Appellate Court to add to the record so

0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:58.080
<v Speaker 3>they could consider it because it was cut to the

0:07:58.120 --> 0:07:59.760
<v Speaker 3>core of one of our main arguments.

0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:03.000
<v Speaker 1>What Donziger's lawyer had argued in the appeal was in

0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:05.960
<v Speaker 1>part that a lot of the justification for bringing the

0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:08.280
<v Speaker 1>Rico suit in the first place had come from this

0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:11.080
<v Speaker 1>corrupt witness, which should never have been allowed.

0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:14.680
<v Speaker 3>They totally ignored it, They didn't even mention it in

0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:18.760
<v Speaker 3>their decision, and they completely affirmed Judge Kaplan without reviewing

0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:23.520
<v Speaker 3>any of his factual findings or his credibility findings of

0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:25.800
<v Speaker 3>this obviously corrupt line witness.

0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.160
<v Speaker 1>The second Circuit affirmed Captain's ruling in the Rico suit,

0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:32.840
<v Speaker 1>and that carried a lot of weight. Here's what Melissa Simms,

0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:35.600
<v Speaker 1>who gave us a primer on Rico earlier this season,

0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:36.640
<v Speaker 1>said about.

0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.800
<v Speaker 4>It from a legal standpoint. There was a judgment, and

0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:42.520
<v Speaker 4>the Court of Appeals, you know, affirmed the decision, so

0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:44.960
<v Speaker 4>you know it is what it is. It's final.

0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:47.800
<v Speaker 1>On top of what that meant for Donziger and the

0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:50.520
<v Speaker 1>Lago Agrio plaintiffs that they would not be able to

0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:53.160
<v Speaker 1>collect the judgment in the US and might also struggle

0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:55.520
<v Speaker 1>in other courts around the world, it also set a

0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.040
<v Speaker 1>new precedent in a few different ways.

0:08:58.080 --> 0:09:00.840
<v Speaker 5>To me, the biggest thing is how much the Rico

0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:06.320
<v Speaker 5>case has completely obscured who they are and what they're doing.

0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:10.920
<v Speaker 1>Lindsay O Fries is an anthropologist and documentary filmmaker who's

0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:14.440
<v Speaker 1>been studying the affected people in Ecuador since two thousand

0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:14.880
<v Speaker 1>and five.

0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:18.360
<v Speaker 5>The people who have been fighting in Ecuador and the

0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.640
<v Speaker 5>actual reality of the oil disaster have been completely obscured

0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:25.840
<v Speaker 5>from view, at least in the United States in other

0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:26.920
<v Speaker 5>powerful countries.

0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:30.200
<v Speaker 1>Ofrias is working on a documentary about how rico has

0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.439
<v Speaker 1>been used against activists in recent years.

0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:36.520
<v Speaker 5>I think it's important also to note that when we

0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.240
<v Speaker 5>talk about the Ecuadorian plaintiffs, they're not just people who

0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.319
<v Speaker 5>are involved in a legal battle. They're doing all kinds

0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:46.920
<v Speaker 5>of things. And so two of those people in Bertolpio

0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.439
<v Speaker 5>Guaffe and Carmen Zambrano, I went with them to Standing

0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:53.080
<v Speaker 5>Rock in twenty sixteen. Part of the idea was for

0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:57.280
<v Speaker 5>coalition building and also trying to think about what is

0:09:57.480 --> 0:10:02.319
<v Speaker 5>possible outside or beyond this whole vortex of the law

0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:06.320
<v Speaker 5>that kind of sucks everything into it. And so something

0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:08.840
<v Speaker 5>that I will always remember is that around the fire

0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:12.120
<v Speaker 5>went evening where you know, everybody would come and sit

0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.679
<v Speaker 5>around the fire and share stories, and Berto and Carmen

0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.360
<v Speaker 5>gave kind of like a warning about what they had

0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:22.960
<v Speaker 5>gone through, and you know that it was likely to

0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:26.960
<v Speaker 5>come to pass once again now that this RICO precedent

0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:32.960
<v Speaker 5>has been set, And indeed that's what happened. And we

0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.559
<v Speaker 5>can see so many many cases in which the RICO

0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.680
<v Speaker 5>law has morphed from its original intention of targeting the

0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:43.160
<v Speaker 5>mafia and white collar criminals to silencing protests to trying

0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:46.480
<v Speaker 5>to quell particular forms of political organizing.

0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.760
<v Speaker 1>Julio Gomez, the attorney who represented the Ecuadorian plaintiffs in

0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.800
<v Speaker 1>the RICO, also said the case stands as something of

0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:57.000
<v Speaker 1>a warning to attorneys who would take on a big

0:10:57.240 --> 0:10:59.680
<v Speaker 1>multinational corporation like Chevron.

0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:01.880
<v Speaker 6>If you will try to get involved in a case

0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.120
<v Speaker 6>like this or against another oil company, and you do

0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:08.480
<v Speaker 6>any research, I mean, the amount of information available online

0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:11.600
<v Speaker 6>about the history of this case and the damage it

0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.439
<v Speaker 6>has caused, the attorneys who have worked on it everywhere.

0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.360
<v Speaker 6>So anyone who's contemplating doing something like this and begins

0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:20.560
<v Speaker 6>to read about how difficult it is, I mean, even

0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:25.360
<v Speaker 6>hearing probably my own positions in this in this interview,

0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.960
<v Speaker 6>that certainly is not going to motivate people to take

0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:34.040
<v Speaker 6>on these kinds of cases. It's yeah, it's it creates

0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.960
<v Speaker 6>an enormous chilling effect, and that's again more of the

0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:39.280
<v Speaker 6>disadvantage for people who trying to see justice.

0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:43.080
<v Speaker 1>According to Sims, there has also been a surprise silver

0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:45.760
<v Speaker 1>lining for some plaintiffs attorneys.

0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:50.560
<v Speaker 4>Well, you know, I've been watching it since its inception

0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:53.760
<v Speaker 4>just because I felt so badly for the people in

0:11:53.800 --> 0:12:00.880
<v Speaker 4>Ecuador who face this environmental disaster, and so it's fascinating

0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.520
<v Speaker 4>watching it unfold, and I think, the Lord, I'm not

0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.840
<v Speaker 4>part of it at this point in time, but we

0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:10.480
<v Speaker 4>have a lot that we're learning from it. Plus we

0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:12.719
<v Speaker 4>have a lot of information that we're going to be

0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:15.640
<v Speaker 4>able to utilize and our cases going forth. So one

0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:17.520
<v Speaker 4>of the things that we're doing is a plane of

0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:22.080
<v Speaker 4>spar is. We're actually exercising the rights of these people

0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:26.040
<v Speaker 4>internationally to sue in the United States, because what we're

0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:30.439
<v Speaker 4>finding is that when we tell the courts how difficult

0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:35.360
<v Speaker 4>it is for these people to get compensation for their conduct,

0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:39.720
<v Speaker 4>and then we show what Chevron has done, how they

0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:45.000
<v Speaker 4>have been defending this judgment in the United States, and

0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:48.559
<v Speaker 4>how hard it is, that actually helps us in our

0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:52.440
<v Speaker 4>cases to prove that we have jurisdiction here in the

0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:53.200
<v Speaker 4>United States.

0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:57.400
<v Speaker 1>Meanwhile, the Equadorian plaintiffs are still trying to collect this

0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:01.560
<v Speaker 1>judgment elsewhere in the world. Donziger was working on the

0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:05.480
<v Speaker 1>case up in Canada when his recent troubles began. Chevron

0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:09.319
<v Speaker 1>asked Kaplan to file civil contempt charges against Donziger because

0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:13.400
<v Speaker 1>of his work. But before that, Donziger faced another challenge.

0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:16.240
<v Speaker 3>I'm a member of two different state bars, one in

0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:19.680
<v Speaker 3>New York and one in Washington, d c H. So

0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:22.160
<v Speaker 3>you know, the first inkling.

0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:25.520
<v Speaker 7>I got that the bar licensing process was going to

0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:28.720
<v Speaker 7>be used against me to try to disbar me was

0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:33.280
<v Speaker 7>a letter I received from the organization in the District

0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:36.440
<v Speaker 7>of Columbia that licenses lawyers.

0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:40.560
<v Speaker 1>Donziger says he remembers this letter vividly. Basically, it said

0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:42.720
<v Speaker 1>that they had heard about the Reco decision and were

0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:45.720
<v Speaker 1>concerned and wanted to hear his side.

0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:49.240
<v Speaker 3>So they didn't do anything. And a few months later

0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:53.040
<v Speaker 3>I got a similar letter, more hostile in tone, from

0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:57.959
<v Speaker 3>the New York Bar Manhattan Grievance Committee, that's the group

0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:04.080
<v Speaker 3>in New York City that monitors lawyers, and they asked

0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:09.120
<v Speaker 3>me similar questions, but the big difference was the referral

0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:14.480
<v Speaker 3>to the New York Grievance Committee came from several judges

0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.240
<v Speaker 3>on the federal bench who worked with Judge Kaplan on

0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:19.000
<v Speaker 3>the same court.

0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.040
<v Speaker 1>The letter argued that Donziger was a threat to the

0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.960
<v Speaker 1>public and should be immediately disbarred without a hearing. In

0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:30.120
<v Speaker 1>July twenty eighteen, he was suspended from practicing law.

0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.840
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I had my law license suspended without a hearing.

0:14:33.880 --> 0:14:36.920
<v Speaker 3>So let's go back in the Rico case. I was

0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:42.480
<v Speaker 3>denied a jury. Fast forward to my bar licensing procedure,

0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.760
<v Speaker 3>and they concoct this idea that I can't get a

0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:51.080
<v Speaker 3>hearing there. And by the way, those hearings are overseen

0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:55.479
<v Speaker 3>by very establishment lawyers that are appointed by the same committee.

0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.200
<v Speaker 3>So they didn't even want me to have that hearing.

0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:01.600
<v Speaker 3>So they deny my law life license, suspend it without

0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:04.160
<v Speaker 3>a hearing. But under the law, when you get a

0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:08.120
<v Speaker 3>property interest like a professional license suspended without a hearing,

0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.280
<v Speaker 3>you're entitled under the due process clause of our Constitution

0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:13.240
<v Speaker 3>to what's called a post suspension hearing.

0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:16.600
<v Speaker 1>Donziger got his hearing sort of.

0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:20.200
<v Speaker 3>And on that first day, no one knew what to do.

0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:25.120
<v Speaker 3>It was bizarre, like the hearing was like I don't

0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.480
<v Speaker 3>really know what this hearing is because they're telling me

0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:31.760
<v Speaker 3>you can't challenge anything, and I'm like, no, I have

0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:33.760
<v Speaker 3>to be able to challenge. That's the whole point of

0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:36.760
<v Speaker 3>a post suspension hearing is to allow the hearing that

0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:41.280
<v Speaker 3>could have taken place before to now happen. And they're like, no,

0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:45.880
<v Speaker 3>you can't use this to relitigate Caplan's findings, and I'm like, well,

0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:47.400
<v Speaker 3>then I'm not really getting a hearing.

0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.600
<v Speaker 1>The hearing officer got briefs from both the Grievance Committee

0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:54.400
<v Speaker 1>and Donziger about how, why, and whether this hearing should

0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:55.120
<v Speaker 1>really happen.

0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:58.320
<v Speaker 3>You know, the chevron kaplan strategy was to just keep

0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:01.440
<v Speaker 3>attacking me, distracting me, and if that didn't work, they

0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:05.800
<v Speaker 3>would just up the annie and upping the animant, locking

0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:07.680
<v Speaker 3>me up. And it's really scary.

0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:10.920
<v Speaker 1>It was in the course of the disbarment proceedings that

0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:14.760
<v Speaker 1>Donziger was charged with first civil and then criminal contempt.

0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:17.240
<v Speaker 1>He was put on pre trial house arrest for the

0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:21.720
<v Speaker 1>criminal contempt charge in August twenty nineteen, and he finally

0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:25.720
<v Speaker 1>got that bar hearing a month later in September. This

0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:28.400
<v Speaker 1>part of the story reminds me not only of the

0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:31.560
<v Speaker 1>whole kill step thing, but also of a quote that's

0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:35.360
<v Speaker 1>appeared in multiple stories about this case. In two thousand

0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:38.200
<v Speaker 1>and nine, Donald Campbell, a spokesman for the company at

0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:41.480
<v Speaker 1>the time, said this, We're going to fight this until

0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:43.840
<v Speaker 1>hell freeze is over, and then we'll fight it out

0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:59.960
<v Speaker 1>on the ice. When his bar hearing happened in September nine,

0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:03.520
<v Speaker 1>team Donziger had to request permission from the court to

0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:05.800
<v Speaker 1>leave his apartment. He showed up to the hearing with

0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:09.440
<v Speaker 1>his ankle bracelet on. Chevron's attorneys came.

0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:13.120
<v Speaker 3>To and I found it really creepy that they're there.

0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:15.080
<v Speaker 3>First of all, they hit in theory should have no

0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:17.480
<v Speaker 3>interest in what happens to me in a bar proceeding.

0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:18.359
<v Speaker 3>They're not a party.

0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:22.920
<v Speaker 1>Several lawyers spoke on Donziger's behalf, and a few months later,

0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:27.040
<v Speaker 1>the hearing officer recommended that Donziger keep his law license.

0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:30.040
<v Speaker 3>But he doesn't have the power to make the final decision.

0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:33.240
<v Speaker 3>It goes up to the same court that ordered him

0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:37.040
<v Speaker 3>not to consider Caplin's findings. Chevron lawyer Randy Mostro was

0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:39.040
<v Speaker 3>like quoted in the press saying, Oh, this is never

0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.800
<v Speaker 3>going to stand. It's totally going to be overturned. The

0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:44.200
<v Speaker 3>hearing officer didn't do his job properly.

0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.480
<v Speaker 1>According to Donziger, in the majority of these sorts of cases,

0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:52.080
<v Speaker 1>the hearing officer's recommendation usually stands.

0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:54.879
<v Speaker 3>But obviously this is a different situation.

0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.880
<v Speaker 1>Shortly before this season, law And We learned from Donziger

0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:08.520
<v Speaker 1>that the hearing officer had been overturned. He's been disbarred,

0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:16.119
<v Speaker 1>he filed an appeal in September, and now he's waiting

0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:22.080
<v Speaker 1>to hear back from the New York State Court of Appeals.

0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:24.879
<v Speaker 1>Next time, we're going to attempt to wrap up this

0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:28.680
<v Speaker 1>complicated story with some final thoughts on the case, how

0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:31.920
<v Speaker 1>it's been litigated, how it's been covered, and what's happening

0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:42.359
<v Speaker 1>today in Ecuador. Come back for that. Drilled is an

0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:47.200
<v Speaker 1>original production of the Critical Frequency podcast Network. The show

0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:51.399
<v Speaker 1>was created, reported, and written by me Amy Westervelt. My

0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:55.320
<v Speaker 1>co reporter this season is Karen Savage. Our editor is

0:18:55.440 --> 0:19:00.600
<v Speaker 1>Julia Ritchie. The show's editorial consultant is Rika Murphy. Mixing

0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:02.280
<v Speaker 1>and mastering by Mark.

0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:08.480
<v Speaker 8>Bush, original score by Bbman, fact checking by woodn Yan.

0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.159
<v Speaker 8>Our artwork for this season was done by the super

0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:17.920
<v Speaker 8>talented Matt Fleming. Special thanks to Trevor Gowan and Emily Gertz.

0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:22.479
<v Speaker 8>If you are a Patreon subscriber, thank you your money

0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:26.159
<v Speaker 8>is helping to make this season. And as a special.

0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:30.280
<v Speaker 2>Thank you to Patreon members who're providing a variety of benefits,

0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:35.680
<v Speaker 2>including bonus content and early access to episodes in this season.

0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:38.280
<v Speaker 2>If that sounds appealing to you, or you just want.

0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:41.240
<v Speaker 1>To support our work, go over to patreon dot com,

0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:45.320
<v Speaker 1>slash drilled and sign up. We also have some merch.

0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.520
<v Speaker 2>Associated with that. You can find stories, documents, and photos

0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:53.000
<v Speaker 2>related to this season on our website at drillednews dot com.

0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:55.560
<v Speaker 1>That's it for this time, Thanks for listening, and we'll

0:19:55.600 --> 0:20:03.239
<v Speaker 1>see you next week. I bet him him

0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:11.520
<v Speaker 5>H