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Speaker 1: For the second time. Members of Oregon Cities followers of

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Speaker 1: Christ Church are facing serious charges for not getting medical

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Speaker 1: treatment for their newborn children. The church practices faith healing,

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Speaker 1: turning away from medicine and medical treatment. Parents who rejected

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Speaker 1: medical treatment for their sick children in favor of faith

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Speaker 1: healing are now charged with murder and criminal mistreatment four

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Speaker 1: year old Sarah Mitchell and twenty one year old Travis Mitchell.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Sarah gave birth

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Speaker 1: to twin girls at her parents home in Oregon City.

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Speaker 1: One of the girls developed breathing complications, but detectives say

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Speaker 1: because the Mitchell's and the family believe in faith feeling

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Speaker 1: over medicine, nobody called nine one one Three midwives were

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Speaker 1: at the house when the kids were born. The little

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Speaker 1: girl died just a few hours after birth. The state

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Speaker 1: medical examiner says there's no guarantee she would have lived,

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Speaker 1: but at least would have had a chance with medical treatment.

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Speaker 1: Another faith healing couple charged with murder now. According to

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Speaker 1: reports in Oregon followers of Christ Church. They are known

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Speaker 1: for deadly adherence to the practice of faith healing, and

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Speaker 1: a very young couple who are part of that church

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Speaker 1: are now facing murder charges because they chose prayer over doctors. Now,

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Speaker 1: many people will argue this infringes on freedom of religion,

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Speaker 1: which is in our Constitution and the Bill of Rights. However,

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Speaker 1: child advocates and victims advocates disagree. I'm Nancy Grace. This

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Speaker 1: is crime stories. Thank you for being with us. And

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Speaker 1: yet another baby is dead. According to the Oregonian Investigators State,

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Speaker 1: the baby was having trouble breathing right after she was

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Speaker 1: delivered at home the home of Sarah Mitchell's parents near

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Speaker 1: Oregon's City. Nobody bothered to call n one one the

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Speaker 1: surviving twin, Evelyn, And let me tell you, having twins

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Speaker 1: as a tricky thing. I know, I and Lucy, my daughter,

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Speaker 1: almost died in childbirth. All three of us were in

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Speaker 1: the hospital for a very long time. The surviving twin

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Speaker 1: in this incident, Evelyn, was later taken to Dornbecker Children's

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Speaker 1: Hospital in Portland. I'm not sure and I can't understand

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Speaker 1: the reports as to who has custody of the surviving twin.

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Speaker 1: So they took one twin, Evelyn, to the hospital while

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Speaker 1: the other baby dies. A so called church elder named

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Speaker 1: Carl Hansen contact of the County Medical Examiner to report

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Speaker 1: the baby's death nearly two hours after it happened. Now

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Speaker 1: I'm learning this from search warrants in the case. The

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Speaker 1: county Deputy Medical Examiner responded, stated it was very common

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Speaker 1: and in fact the norm his words, not mine, the

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Speaker 1: norm for followers of Christ church member to call the

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Speaker 1: medical examiner directly when someone in their church passes away.

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Speaker 1: This whole thing has me beside myself because I'm a believer.

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Speaker 1: I'm not ashamed of that. I'm proud of it. I'm

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Speaker 1: a believer. But you know, let me go to the

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Speaker 1: Duke Alan Deck also joining us today our co producer

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Speaker 1: Jackie Howard Alan. I mean, maybe I'm misreading the scripture,

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Speaker 1: but you know, you pray to the Lord for help,

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Speaker 1: and there's your phone sitting there where you die, all

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Speaker 1: nine one one. You can get an ambulance, you can

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Speaker 1: get e M T. S. I mean, what more does

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Speaker 1: the Lord have to do for you for Pete's sake? Yes,

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Speaker 1: providing the wonderful hospital down the road and the doctor

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Speaker 1: you know, well, you know better than anybody. I know

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Speaker 1: that when you have twins, you've got to be in

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Speaker 1: a hospital because they're gonna be generally prematureity. This baby

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Speaker 1: was three pounds and some ounces. What what did Lucy weigh?

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Speaker 1: Un at two pounds or something? Lucy wig two pounds,

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Speaker 1: John David, this is crazy too, because we were in

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Speaker 1: an awesome hospital. Was set to give birth. Jack. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you know this story. I was set

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Speaker 1: to give birth at Mount Sinai in New York, and

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Speaker 1: I had been going there. I came down to visit

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Speaker 1: Atlanta see David, my husband, and my parents for the weekend,

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Speaker 1: and I gave birth. It was an emergency cesarean and

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Speaker 1: I went to North Side and let me tell you,

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Speaker 1: that place was like the taj Mahal, compared to anything

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Speaker 1: I had seen. I couldn't believe it when I went

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Speaker 1: into their labor and delivery delivery unit. We have been

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Speaker 1: tracking John David and Lucy and their growth, saying nor more.

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Speaker 1: But what they didn't know is while Lucy's skeleton was

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Speaker 1: the right size, she only weighed two pounds. John David

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Speaker 1: was getting all of the nutrition. He was five pounds.

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Speaker 1: And when I gave birth, Golly, I had blood clots

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Speaker 1: to my lungs. I had about forty pounds of liquid

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Speaker 1: on me. It was just incredible. Little Lucy almost didn't

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Speaker 1: make it, and that is with the best care in

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Speaker 1: the world in a Nickew unit, much less at home.

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Speaker 1: For Pete's sake, Jackie, It's amazing to me that anybody

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Speaker 1: can look at what has been given to us as

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Speaker 1: a country and not understand that while God is a

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Speaker 1: huge place in our in our life and our and

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Speaker 1: our world, he also gave everybody else gifts to and

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Speaker 1: knowledge to the doctor's facilities for people to build. So

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Speaker 1: it's hard for us to understand why people make the

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Speaker 1: choices that they do. Well, you know, I have Christian

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Speaker 1: scientists in my background and they don't believe and go

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Speaker 1: into the doctor, including my mom she was raised Christian scientist.

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Speaker 1: We're all Methodists now and when you go to the doctor.

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Speaker 1: But I'm not saying don't have your beliefs. Those are

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Speaker 1: your beliefs, but inflicting that on a baby and not

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Speaker 1: taking it to the hospital when you have a duty.

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Speaker 1: I mean. Child deaths have played the church for years

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Speaker 1: and the Oregonian reports members quote believe the sick will

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Speaker 1: be anointed by elders and their faith will heal all

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Speaker 1: elements death if it comes is God's will, That's what

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Speaker 1: they say. I would let the person choose that for themselves.

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Speaker 1: And that is why the law steps in. The law

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Speaker 1: steps in when you are dealing with children, because they

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Speaker 1: don't have the ability to take care of themselves, and

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Speaker 1: you will a lie on faith healing parents and they die.

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Speaker 1: The sheriffs are investigating right now an Oregon couple whose

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Speaker 1: infant daughter died of breathing complications hours after she was born.

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Speaker 1: Sarah Mitchell, the mom, gave birth to two twin girls

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Speaker 1: at her parents home there in Clackamas County, Okay. That's

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Speaker 1: what we know. The husband, Travis Lee Mitchell, and Sarah

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Speaker 1: are members of the Followers of Christ Church in Oregon City,

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Speaker 1: and it is known for practicing faith healing and rejecting

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Speaker 1: medical care and all modern medicine. They choose prayer and

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Speaker 1: anointment with oil, which to my understanding, I've never been

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Speaker 1: anointed with oil. I think it's when you rub oil

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Speaker 1: on the person. Is that what that is? Alan? I

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Speaker 1: think some holy oil? What is holy oil? Number one?

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Speaker 1: What is holy oil? I guess whatever in your religion

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Speaker 1: you decide is holy. I'm asking a question of you,

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Speaker 1: though you're the expert on having twins. At what point

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Speaker 1: should you know that you've got twins coming and it's

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Speaker 1: going to be high risk. It should be pretty early.

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Speaker 1: But maybe these parents didn't even get prenatal examinations. You

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Speaker 1: know what. That's a good point. Yeah, that is a

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Speaker 1: really good point. I don't know if she knew they

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Speaker 1: were having twins, but you know, fairly early on, you

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Speaker 1: know it. I'm sure about a month three or four,

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Speaker 1: I knew I was having twins because the doctor told you,

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Speaker 1: or just because you figured it out. Yeah, you can't

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Speaker 1: just look at your stomach and figure it out. A

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Speaker 1: doctor had to tell me. Now, there's a former member

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Speaker 1: of this church, Followers of Christ Church, Susie Shemaker, and

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Speaker 1: she is speaking out and she is saying that scriptures

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Speaker 1: tell them not to put faith in doctors. She left

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Speaker 1: the church in nine and married a non member. She

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Speaker 1: said her children were born in hospital, she takes them

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Speaker 1: to the doctor, but within the church that is not allowed,

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Speaker 1: and people are shunned for it. You know, it's amazing

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Speaker 1: how peer pressure. When you hear the words peer pressure,

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Speaker 1: you think of high school students. These are adults that

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Speaker 1: shun going to the doctor because of peer pressure in

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Speaker 1: their church, what I mean, and you put that over

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Speaker 1: your child. But if you look at the pictures of

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Speaker 1: these parents, they're very, very young. They don't look like

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Speaker 1: they're heartily out of high school themselves. We know that's

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Speaker 1: not an excuse with Nancy, because that's generally the age

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Speaker 1: of people who have children. We had this case a

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Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago where the baby was in a

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Speaker 1: crib and a rat started chewing on this infant. And

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Speaker 1: by the way, that child is doing okay, I'm told now,

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Speaker 1: but they were eighteen and nineteen. But age is no

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Speaker 1: excuse because just traditionally that's the young people. It's the

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Speaker 1: young folks who have the babies. I want to pause

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Speaker 1: thank you for being our partner. Now, Alan, I want

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Speaker 1: to go back to our story. Guys, not too long ago,

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Speaker 1: Sarah's sister, the mother's sister and brother in law. Shannon

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Speaker 1: and Dale Hickman were found guilty of second degree manslaughter

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Speaker 1: after the death of their infant son. Okay, did you

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Speaker 1: hear me? So it's a pattern, this mother that let

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Speaker 1: this baby die. Sister and her husband, Shannon and Dale Hickman,

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Speaker 1: were found guilty of second degree murder secondary manslaughter after

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Speaker 1: the death of their baby boy in two thousand nine.

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Speaker 1: That baby boy died less than nine hours after being born.

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Speaker 1: Both of them are serving six year prison sentences and

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Speaker 1: their really state earliest is January two thousand eighteen. They

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Speaker 1: were tried in Oregon City, Oregon, in two thousand eleven,

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Speaker 1: So it's not as if they don't know what's going on.

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Speaker 1: They knew this is her own sister. They also knew

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Speaker 1: to be deceptive when the deputy medical examiner showed up

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Speaker 1: at the home and was presented with the deceased infant, Jennifer,

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Speaker 1: the deputy before just five minutes before the medical examiner

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Speaker 1: was going to leave the home, he realized there was

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Speaker 1: a second baby who was alive, Evelyn. The second child,

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Speaker 1: healthy and alert, about the same size, still just three

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Speaker 1: pounds six ounces thereabouts. But they had withheld information that

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Speaker 1: this was one of twins, and we don't know. The

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Speaker 1: government is not telling us where the other child, Evelyn

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Speaker 1: is right now. But my guess is my money is

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Speaker 1: it's not with the parents. Okay, I hope you were

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Speaker 1: sitting down. Here's more you ready. Turns out that this mother, Sarah,

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Speaker 1: and the sister Shannon, who's already gone to jail for

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Speaker 1: manslaughter of her baby, their father, who is Walter Matthew White,

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Speaker 1: is believed to be the direct descendant of Walter White,

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Speaker 1: the founder of Followers of Christ Church Congregation in Oregon City.

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Speaker 1: According to former members of the church, he turned into

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Speaker 1: what they call a dictator and that members of Followers

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Speaker 1: of Christ Church were scared to death of him. Now, listen,

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Speaker 1: I am certainly no biblical scholar, Okay, I'm right in

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Speaker 1: there with the worst of the worst, and I accept that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so don't don't quote me on anything to do with

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Speaker 1: the Bible. But why is everyone afraid of the church.

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Speaker 1: I don't recall anything like that happening with Jesus and

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Speaker 1: I am I crazy or did I get the whole

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Speaker 1: thing wrong? No, But I don't recall anybody being afraid

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Speaker 1: of him. I'm not afraid. I don't think that has

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Speaker 1: anything to do with the church that has more. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so this is what I also want to throw out.

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Speaker 1: There is a tipline five zero three seven two three

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Speaker 1: four nine four nine five oh three seven two three

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Speaker 1: four nine four nine another baby dead out of this

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Speaker 1: church called Followers of Christ Church in Oregon City, known

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Speaker 1: for faith healing and rejecting medical care and modern medicine.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that anybody that I know anyway, when

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Speaker 1: faced with a major illness or a major crisis in

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Speaker 1: their life, does not at some point reach out to

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Speaker 1: God for help. And in my mind, help came their

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Speaker 1: way with nine one one e m t S the

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Speaker 1: local hospital, which has an excellent reputation. There was the

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Speaker 1: help that they chose to ignore faith healing. It's once

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Speaker 1: again under investigation for the death of a child. Now

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Speaker 1: this is what they're going to argue. They're gonna argue

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Speaker 1: freedom of religion. That's what they're going to argue, which

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Speaker 1: is in our Bill of Rights, the first ten Amendments

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Speaker 1: to our Constitution, along with freedom of the press, freedom

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Speaker 1: of associations, right right to bear arms, and so forth,

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Speaker 1: and so on, all the first ten Amendments. That's what

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Speaker 1: they're going to rely on. It's the bedrock of our

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Speaker 1: jurisprudence system. But that doesn't wash when you are dealing

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Speaker 1: with alan, a helpless child, and you're making the decisions

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Speaker 1: for them, and because of your decisions, your religious leanings,

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Speaker 1: they die in Oh they have got to go to jail,

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Speaker 1: period if these allegations are true, and Evelyn has to

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Speaker 1: be taken away and I don't mean given to somebody

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Speaker 1: else in the family or within that church. Oh no,

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Speaker 1: uh no, because she could die in the next six

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Speaker 1: months of some kind of an ailment for all I know,

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Speaker 1: and then there will be another death. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm very angry about this. Allowing children to die and

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Speaker 1: using God as your disguise. That that makes it even

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Speaker 1: worse to me. You let the baby die, you might

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Speaker 1: as well have just killed the baby yourself outright killed it.

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Speaker 1: They let the baby die and then hide behind this,

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Speaker 1: this church that has a history of dead babies. I mean,

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Speaker 1: why do you want to be in a church where

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Speaker 1: they've got a history of dead babies. Yes, they're thinking

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Speaker 1: it's God's will and this is how they communicate with

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Speaker 1: God through I suppose seeing what God does and in

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Speaker 1: this case, God took Jennifer away from them, and God

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Speaker 1: wanted Jennifer. I think that's the logic that they've got.

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Speaker 1: But the medical examiner, the is the state medical examiner

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Speaker 1: in the conclusion that's in this AffA, David said this

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Speaker 1: was a preventable death. You know, hospital neonatal intensive care

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Speaker 1: units are probably the scene of an awful lot of prayers.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, I can. I can promise you that that's true.

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Speaker 1: There's probably no other per square foot. You said that

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Speaker 1: was how their logic is. Logic doesn't play any part

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Speaker 1: in this. Well, this is indoctrination from this chart. I

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Speaker 1: mean you can apply that kind of logic to everybody

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Speaker 1: that commits a crime. You know. Oh, it's God's will

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Speaker 1: that I run into this Walmart and still all the jewelry,

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Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I should have it, not them. That

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Speaker 1: that's what God told me out in the parking lot.

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Speaker 1: That's not Washington, the Allen In Oregon, the legislature, they're

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Speaker 1: just two thousand and eleven passed a law to remove

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Speaker 1: spiritual treatment as a defense for all homicide charges. So

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Speaker 1: there is no legal defense in the state of Oregon. Okay,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, So that is no longer going to

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Speaker 1: be a legal defense. They can't claim freedom of religion.

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Speaker 1: Wait tell me that again. You tell me something new.

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Speaker 1: Tell me the Followers of Christ Church is so notorious

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Speaker 1: in the state of Oregon that in two thousand and eleven,

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Speaker 1: the state legislature passed a bill that removed spiritual treatment

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Speaker 1: as a defense for all homicide charges. You know, I

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Speaker 1: have one other issue, and I noticed since and I

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Speaker 1: as a prosecutor ten years, inter City Atlanta, nothing but

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Speaker 1: felonies when the child, excuse me, when the crime victim

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Speaker 1: is a baby or a child, the purp gets a

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Speaker 1: lighter sentence. Okay, so if I let Jackie or Alan

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Speaker 1: just die, al I kill them intentionally, I'll probably go

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Speaker 1: to jail for murder or manslaughter. When it's a baby, somehow,

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Speaker 1: the sentence is less like six years. Seriously, the baby's

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Speaker 1: life is less important than other lives. I'm telling you,

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Speaker 1: just watch now. This is anecdotal, is just what I

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Speaker 1: noticed that when it's child or a baby, the purp

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Speaker 1: gets a lighter sentence. I guess the thinging is what

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Speaker 1: the person hasn't lived so that we didn't lose that much.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand it. To quote you that's best awards.

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Speaker 1: You know what. Wait, I'm so glad you said that,

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Speaker 1: because I was just about to say that. On another note,

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Speaker 1: Bass Akwards, is how I am describing this is another story.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I hate to even say the name Josh Douger. Okay,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know if I'm saying that correctly? You

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Speaker 1: know that is it? Was it? Twenty one and counting?

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Speaker 1: Was that the name of their show where they have

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Speaker 1: all the children? What was that on TLC? There was

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Speaker 1: nineteen kids and counting? Okay, I don't know where I

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Speaker 1: got twenty one from. Okay, Sorry, I guess legal age

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Speaker 1: and nighting. It's a counting catch this, Okay. You remember

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Speaker 1: Josh Dugger. He was accused of molesting his sister's right.

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Speaker 1: Was that one sister or more than one sister? Actually

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Speaker 1: it was several. There were Jill, Jessa Ginger with a

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Speaker 1: J and Joy. Jill Jessa Ginger and Joy Dugger filed

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Speaker 1: the lawsuit against Springdale, Arkansas police and a celebrity tabloid,

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Speaker 1: claiming that they were promised their police report would be

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Speaker 1: sealed because they were all miners at the time, all

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Speaker 1: of them, Jill, Jessa Ginger and enjoy. Dugger claim that

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Speaker 1: the police, Arkansas Police and some tabloid I don't know

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Speaker 1: which one should not have released their names. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: get it. Usually sex attack victims names are kept secret.

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Speaker 1: Kind of hard to do when you're in a reality show,

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Speaker 1: but still, yes, kept secret. Now you two might as

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Speaker 1: well lay down for this now. Josh Dugger, the disgraced

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Speaker 1: reality star who is accused by them of molesting them.

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Speaker 1: This seemed to go on for years. Apparently he is

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Speaker 1: demanding money damages from his sister's lawsuit, claiming his siblings

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Speaker 1: have received sympathy, but the public treats him like a pariah. Okay,

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Speaker 1: stuff just like this that makes the public treat him

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Speaker 1: like a priah. So what I'm saying, Jackie and Alan,

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Speaker 1: is that Josh Dugger from nineteen and still giving birth

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Speaker 1: nineteen babies and having more? What was the name of

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Speaker 1: the show, Alan, nineteen and what nineteen kids and counting? Okay,

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Speaker 1: nineteen kids in counting? You claim? Is this name of

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Speaker 1: the show and the one son Josh Dugger is accused

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Speaker 1: of molesting multiple sisters of his that he lived with.

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Speaker 1: They sue for breach of privacy because their names were

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Speaker 1: released and Now he's trying to piggyback, trying to hop

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Speaker 1: on the caboose and get the money. He is trying

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Speaker 1: to join his sister's lawsuit against Arkansas police. It was

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Speaker 1: in Touch Weekly, seeking damages for the harm he suffered

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Speaker 1: following the tabloids publication of the story that claimed he

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Speaker 1: molested his sisters. Have I just completely lost my mind?

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Speaker 1: We should title this podcast today bass Akwards because that's

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Speaker 1: exactly what this one is. The sisters. I certainly understand

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Speaker 1: their claim against the city of Springdale for the breach

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Speaker 1: of privacy because you come forward, you talked to investigators,

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Speaker 1: and by law, and in fact, in Arkansas, it is

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Speaker 1: the law that their their identity should have been respected. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're on reality shows, but this was not directly related

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Speaker 1: to their reality television career. And again, they were fourteen

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Speaker 1: and fifteen years old. I have sympathy for them, but

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Speaker 1: for Josh none. Again, I think we agree on this one.

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Speaker 1: Did his lawyer tell them he actually has a chance

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Speaker 1: with that? Now? Hold on? The sisters have argued that

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Speaker 1: Arkansas law police are disallowed releasing information related to cases

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Speaker 1: of sex attack on children, and they're right. The four

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Speaker 1: girls who are now in their twenties claim that this

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Speaker 1: whole scandal led to their show being canceled on TLC

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Speaker 1: nineteen Kids in County, and that they were held up

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Speaker 1: to ridicule, embarrassment, and so forth because the claims were

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Speaker 1: made public. Okay, I hear what they're saying. But how

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Speaker 1: does he piggyback on this? That's what I don't get.

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Speaker 1: I don't think very well. I think it's the bottom line.

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Speaker 1: He's not piggybacking very well. He's not getting our sympathy,

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Speaker 1: and I doubt he's going to get any from the court.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine being his lawyer? How do you argue this? Now?

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Speaker 1: What happened in the end of the cases? I recall

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Speaker 1: he went off to some kind of a treatment center.

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Speaker 1: Well the sisters. If I remember that the sisters didn't

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Speaker 1: want to foul towards I mean that he They went

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Speaker 1: through faith counseling in these actual crimes. The alleged crimes

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Speaker 1: took place many years before they were finally reported. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how long they went on. Josh Dugger was

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Speaker 1: never prosecuted. It's argued his parents helped him avoid prosecution

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Speaker 1: and hiding his predatory actions on his own sisters. It

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Speaker 1: was alleged Josh Dugger molested five little girls. Remember four

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Speaker 1: we're sisters, and one was another person that was in

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Speaker 1: and out of the family home. Never prosecuted. It's amazing

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Speaker 1: that public figures can avoid prosecution and apparently bounced back

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Speaker 1: from a scandal. Many fans have even come forward and

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Speaker 1: said that they still loved Josh Dougger, which you know,

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Speaker 1: that's their prerogative. Of course, I'm very concerned that they

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Speaker 1: were not. He was never prosecuted. What was there? What

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Speaker 1: was his penalty getting his reality show canceled? Was that

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Speaker 1: what happened Jackie? There was a faith faith based element

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Speaker 1: in this story as well. The family went through Christian

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Speaker 1: counseling and extensive, according to them, Christian counseling. So in

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Speaker 1: their month they did as christ would do and forgave him.

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Speaker 1: And if you remember back to a lot of the

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Speaker 1: interviews that the sisters gave, I'm all about forgiveness, but

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Speaker 1: he could be forgiven as he's sitting in his jail cell.

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Speaker 1: In fact, he was so forgiven. What was that about

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Speaker 1: popping up on his profile? Wasn't he on? What was

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Speaker 1: the name of that was Madison? Some dating I can't

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Speaker 1: remember what dating website he was on. He had a

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Speaker 1: what really was a false profile on the dating site,

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Speaker 1: and now he has been sued by a Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: DJ who claims that it was his photos that Josh

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Speaker 1: used for his profile on the dating site. Well, this

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Speaker 1: is what I know now, Josh Dugger, he just can't

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Speaker 1: go away. He has reared his head again and is

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Speaker 1: trying to cash in on his sister's lawsuit. I think

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Speaker 1: that sums up the the tenure of today's crime stories.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's great signing off, goodbye friend,