WEBVTT - Eurovision, Chapter Two: Pop Music as Problematic Diplomacy 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:27.600 Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:30.920 the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:34.920 much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the man, 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:39.720 the myth, the uh, the guy beloved by professional juries 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:44.760 and the public alike, mister Max Williams, I'm. 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:46.400 Loved by non professional juries too. 0:00:47.720 --> 0:00:51.839 Yes, yeah, that's no brown wooing in the background. Thank you, 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:55.880 and I'm able to be I like to be wooed, 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:59.120 you know, yes, to woo and to woo uh. My 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:02.880 name is Ben Bullen. For tax purposes, on this show, 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:08.160 we are returning to our exploration of a little thing 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:14.360 called Eurovision. Now. Previously on Ridiculous History, the three of 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:19.040 us delved deep into the origin story of a thing 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:24.440 that has become an international phenomenon. But Noel, you know 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:28.560 you and I were teasing this the entirety of our 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:34.000 first chapter. People do vote on Eurovision. Even though it's 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:38.600 a unifying thing, it is at heart a competition, so 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:42.040 there has to be a winner and there can only 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:42.479 be one. 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:46.160 Oh highlander rules Ben, which is also intensely European. 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:59.640 Yes, cartoonishly so yeah, that's good. Eurovision has a unique 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:06.600 system of voting that combines professional juries like the country 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:10.720 representatives or the big to dos of the music industry 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:16.080 with viewers at home at this point. So if we 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:21.920 are all watching Eurovision twenty twenty six, and the three 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:25.920 of us have a big group text and we're going Estonia, 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:31.480 no Hungary, you know what I mean, we can cast 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:34.640 our votes, we can make a voting block. It's so 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:39.280 weird because each country that participates in Eurovision has their 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:44.240 own in house jury of musical industry pros, and these 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:49.560 folks will award points to their favorite songs, but given 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:54.040 the conspiracy of nineteen fifty six, they are legally not 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:59.160 allowed to vote for their own country. So like, if 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:02.600 you're Simon Cowell or whatever, isn't he the. 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:05.799 Guy Timon Cowell is the mean British one? Yes? 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:06.160 Yeah. 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:08.680 And then we've got Randy Jackson, who is not related 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:10.639 to Michael Jackson. He is a slap of de base 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:14.960 guy who is sort of a mean American who tells 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:16.519 people that he isn't feeling a dog. 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:22.720 That's a note for me, for me. Yeah, So those guys, 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:26.960 hypothetically even being at the top of the music industry game, 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:32.000 if they were part of a jury and Eurovision, they 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:37.040 could not vote for their own country. So essentially what 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:41.360 happens is this jury of boffins will make a top 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:45.280 ten list, a short list, and they will award points. 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:50.839 The maximum amount of allowable points is twelve points. If 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:54.760 you really really love every way that I can or 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:58.520 if you really really love think about things, et cetera. 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:02.680 So at the same time this is happening, the civilians 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:05.520 are participating. The public is a big part of this, 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:09.680 fans from around Europe. And at this point, by the way, guys, 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:13.240 pretty much anyone who has the app, you can vote 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:18.200 for your favorite performance by phone, text or in of course, 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:22.960 the official Eurovision app, which I do want to point out, 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:25.520 is going to scrape a lot of data from your phone. 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:26.719 It's true. 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:29.280 Any of those type of apps are going to have 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:33.240 significant cookies. I do believe there are rules now where 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:37.040 you are required to be a little more transparent about 0:04:37.160 --> 0:04:40.040 which cookies you accept or do not. They EU SU 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:42.479 and the E's always been ahead of the curve in 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:46.080 terms of protection of privacy. So yeah, not something that 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:48.479 we have as much luck with over here. But I 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:52.600 do believe, at least I've noticed that cookie acceptance is 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:54.880 a little bit more transparent, even here in the States. 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:57.440 Do you, guys, get that thing? It may depend on 0:04:57.480 --> 0:04:59.680 the browser you use, but do you get that pop 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:03.720 up where it says, except all cookies reject all cookies 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:05.680 customize you. 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.120 Sometimes there's there's a third secret, third thing or not secret. 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:11.120 But I like to say that for whatever reason, where 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:15.040 it's only relevant ones or only key functional functional ones. 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:15.760 Yeah, exactly. 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:18.960 I mean I think we all mass reject all as 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:20.440 soon as possible, how as I do? 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:23.680 Yeah, of course I have cookies at home. Why do 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:28.440 I want more on the internet? What's your favorite kind 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:31.599 of cookie? Bin? Uh? My favorite kind of cookie? No, 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:34.600 that's a great question. I don't need a lot of sweets. 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:36.000 I'm sweet enough. I think that. 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:37.360 Uh. 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:42.120 Thanks, guys, I would say, you know what I like 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:44.279 a good soft chocolate chip. What about you? 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:47.440 A good soft baked chocolate chip. Ben, I also enjoy 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:51.360 a chocolate chip. Let's include some nuts of some kind 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:53.359 perhaps in that chocolate chip, and a little bit of 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:53.920 sea salt. 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.880 Oh, there we go, all right? Maybe some brown butter max. Yeah, 0:05:57.920 --> 0:05:58.719 what's what to do? 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:01.200 Condition condition? 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:03.720 Come on, man, preconditioned? Favorite cookie? 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:07.760 Yeah, a hot soft chocolate chip cookie? 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:14.440 Is hot. Yeah, as you can tell, we are working 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:18.720 on our pitch for the next year of ficion so 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:23.839 in contests when we can participate, because perhaps podcasts are 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.600 a country of their own. Look, we know that the 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:32.240 voting thing is a messy bull of spaghetti. It's a 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.400 big batch of weird cookie dough. If you are a 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:39.320 winning overstuffed cow zone, it's an overstuffed cow zone. Just so, 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.840 if you are a winning entry, then you have to 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:47.479 be able to appeal to the professional juries and then 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:50.279 you have to get the public on your side. But 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:54.680 just like the electoral college or the electoral vote versus 0:06:54.800 --> 0:07:00.320 the popular vote in US politics, you don't have to 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:05.200 win both of them to be the main act to 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:08.599 be the winner. And I gotta I gotta ask you, guys, 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.000 do you remember NOL. You and I have talked about 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.800 this in the past. Do you remember when we discovered 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:20.280 that there's maybe six people in Scandinavia who write most 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:22.119 pop music hits. 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:24.160 Oh of course, Yeah, I mean we're talking about the 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:29.000 hit factory sort of system over there. The most popular 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:34.080 person associated with that is Max Martin, and he's got 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:40.120 a whole team of crack Scandinavian songwriters song Smith's producers 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:44.160 that are basically dividing pop songs down into their component 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:48.520 parts in order to weaponize psychology against you. 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:53.200 Yes, you the listener. Yes could have said it better. 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:57.560 You nailed it. Folks, please check out stuff they don't 0:07:57.600 --> 0:07:59.920 want you to know. If Nolan and I don't have 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.080 an episode about that yet, we will have one soon. 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:06.320 It'd be great. It'd be weird if we hadn't gotten 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:10.120 to that one yet. Okay, so look, we're we're the crew. 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:15.720 We're watching Eurovision the Big Night, the Grand Final, and 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:20.800 the points are being actively displayed. The scoreboard can flip 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:23.200 at the drop of a hat, so you're gonna see 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:28.400 Max name a name an obscure European country. 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:30.080 Sorry I'm late to the party, or at the drop 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.280 of a beat. 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:40.119 Oh oh, that's foreshadowing. So okay, you might see Armenia 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:45.480 uh performing the in in the Big to Do, and 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:48.840 they may all of a sudden look like they're shoeing. 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:52.199 They're the winner. But then the next uh, the next 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:55.440 act comes on, Nol, what's another country that is not 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:59.960 Armenia but still in Europe? Oh boy, I don't know. 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:05.160 Oh man, that's like saying name one woman that was 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.640 a billy on the street thing. He walks up to people, Billy, 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:09.360 what's that guy? 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:10.840 You know? That really intense dude. 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:13.560 He walks out of people and says, name one woman, 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.400 and they can't do it. They can't do it. I 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:18.320 am so bad at geography, Ben, you're putting me on 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:19.760 the spot. But let's go with. 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:25.000 There we go. Okay, all right, that's still the thing. 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:27.240 It is still a thing. 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:31.880 Thank goodness to ask uh and I also, I also 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:34.840 loved that joke because Max, I can't remember if you 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.960 were there for this recording, but Nolan and I had 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:44.760 quite a time, uh talking about how how weird passport 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:52.320 control and customs can be because of all yeah, yeah, like, 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:57.400 oh is your birthday insert date here? And they're not 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:00.760 looking for what you say, they're looking for your responses. 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:05.360 So both of your faithful co hosts here definitely got 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:08.079 some deer in the headlights moments, right you remember that? 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:10.400 Oh yeah, man, I mean it's how you It's not 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:12.200 what you say, it's how you say it. And it's 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:14.880 so it's much like we discussed on a recent episode 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:19.240 about IQ tests that test taking anxiety. It's a similar 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.040 emotional response, but all of a sudden, you're like under 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:26.000 the gun. Everything you think you know about anything, even yourself, 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:27.520 can just fly right out of your head. 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:30.679 Once upon a time, and this is a true story, 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:33.240 and I trust all of us not to make fun 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:35.840 of me about it too hard. But once upon a time, 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:40.040 when I was entering the United Kingdom, I freaked out 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:43.360 when they were asking me very basic questions. But in 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:48.679 as you said, Nol that quite direct way, I accidentally 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:53.160 called the passport control guy your highness. I didn't know 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.240 what to do. I didn't know what to do. It 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:58.880 was like, it was like, oh, so, what's your business here? 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:01.480 What's going on? I was like, ah, your highness, and 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:02.920 I ah. 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:06.120 Sorry, I might have dropped your lordship situation. 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:12.280 It's a weird one, right, And speaking of more weird stuff, uh, 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:17.400 we have to understand that Eurovision is not about the 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:21.320 best song, right, It is not about that. It is 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:27.600 about stage presence, it's about seeming original. It's a little 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:33.000 bit of rivalry and that brings us to again the 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:38.080 most broken of the main commandments of Eurovision being a 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:41.920 political case. We danced around it a little bit, but 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:44.640 we did a euroside steps, We did a shimmi or two. 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.440 We did. We did. We did an electric slide on 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.920 a couple of these because uh, this is of course 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:54.960 chapter two. Noel, you and I and Max were talking 0:11:55.040 --> 0:12:02.239 off air. Eurovision is way more than this simple reality 0:12:02.320 --> 0:12:06.600 TV show. It is a platform of diplomacy. 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:17.120 The Eurovision Song Contest as it's known, can act as 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:22.720 an incredibly powerful platform for public discourse, cultural diplomacy, and 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:27.720 utilizing that soft power in order to put forth some 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:33.439 very important nation branding. We talked recently about Thai food, 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:36.079 for example, then the exporting of Thai food to the 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.079 United States and other parts of the world. That's soft diplomacy. 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:42.480 We talked about food being soft diplomacy and cuisine being 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.439 soft diplomacy. This is no different. This can also be 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:49.040 an important component in political alignment with other nations, as 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:53.680 well as fostering cultural dialogues among other nations in Europe 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.520 and neighboring countries. And since nineteen fifty six, this whole 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:03.000 deal has allowed nations to influence international perception of their 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:08.679 culture through music rather than through political talking points or policy. 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:11.120 My friend, I think we both agree that is a 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:14.960 powerful thing. Oh absolutely, my friend, Because it's really hard 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:17.520 to wrap your head around the politics of other countries 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:20.520 if you're not like one of the wonks, you know, 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:23.760 or the boffins, as you'd like to say. But music 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:26.040 we can all kind of get behind. 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.280 Yeah, most people are going to feel the same way 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:31.520 about a F sharp or a flat you know what 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:35.199 I mean. It communicates fast words. And also to your 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:41.240 excellent point, there, Noel, why would someone read thousands of 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:47.880 pages about Latvia's post Soviet agricultural policies. Why wouldn't you 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:50.480 just tune in for a less than three minute song 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:53.240 called Latvia Makes Bread. 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:55.320 I'll tell you all. All I needed to know about 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:57.160 Latvia is that I could tap my toe to the 0:13:57.200 --> 0:13:57.760 bread song. 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:02.480 There we go. Yeah, and we see when this works 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:08.000 in theory, we do see a great geopolitical glue. We 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:13.160 do see a great unifier. It also, however, acts as 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:18.400 a platform or venue for geopolitical tensions. So there are 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:23.320 going to be cases where two countries are beefing for 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.960 one reason or another and they just don't like each other, 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:31.520 and they're going to say, screw these guys, nobody vote 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:36.160 for them, right, and they'll get the same in return. 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:42.120 Eurovision during the Cold War is very interesting because it 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:47.480 was unifying Western Europe, but Eastern Europe, under the control 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:53.080 of the USSR, was excluded from the competition. So the 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.320 Soviet Bloc, that's what they call it, dude, they made 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.920 their own thing. They looked at Coca Cola and said, 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.280 will make pepsi at home. They created something called the 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:09.440 Intervision Song Contest. Not as Cool feels like a little 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:10.160 also ran. 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:15.000 No, it's it does for sure. You can't mess with 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:23.040 the classic formulas as evidenced by Coke two, coke, Oh psi. 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:25.320 We should do an episode on those. 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:26.280 Oh, how have we not? 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:29.160 Yeah, we can combine those crystal pepsi and new coke. 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:35.240 Yeah, all right, we'll write it down. Also, the Intervision 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:40.360 Song Contest from the Soviet block ran from a you 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.400 had a much shorter career. It ran from about nineteen 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:47.160 sixty five to nineteen eighty, and it was billed as 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:55.040 a socialist alternative to the corrupt capitalist practices of Eurovision. 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:58.240 And they said, look, we are going to do our 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:00.880 own show, right, We'll make a pepe to the coke 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:06.160 and we will not worry about you guys from Western Europe. 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:09.920 So then we saw for a few decades, we saw 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:16.840 Eurovision and Intervision competing sort of in the same room, 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:19.120 but not directly with one another. 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:22.320 Yeah, but as we can see here from the outline, 0:16:22.920 --> 0:16:26.200 Intervision only lasted from nineteen sixty five to nineteen eighty, 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.160 so it would appear that the OG won out and 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:33.440 that there indeed was could only be one at least, 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:34.840 you know, ultimately. 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:38.440 Like you said, Highlander rules, right, So this is different. 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:44.840 This is a contrasting case to the Olympic Games, because 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:50.560 Intervision and Eurovision did not pick their number one winner 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.520 and then send those two folks to sing it out. 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:59.480 There were only a few instances, pretty rare, where artists 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:04.960 from the Soviet block appeared on Eurovision. That all changes 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:10.000 in nineteen eighty nine, the Berlin Wall falls and shout 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:13.080 out to everybody else who has a little relic of that. 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:19.760 The USSR collapsed. And this means that many formerly Soviet 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:23.919 states in Eastern Europe, what do they do? No, they 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:29.560 don't hang with Intervision. They immediately joined the Eurovision Song 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:35.240 Contest in the nineteen nineties, and doing so is way 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:41.439 easier than joining something like NATO. Yeah man, Nato, Huh, 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.720 how's that thing going? Yeah? Oh yeah? Tap the mic 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:49.479 like a nineteen eighty stand up NATO, guys. It just 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:50.600 I don't know, it just. 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:56.199 The soft diplomacy stuff is such an interesting microcosm of 0:17:56.320 --> 0:18:03.080 like larger political systems and how propaganda can ultimately be 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:07.240 more effective than things like NATO and like the UN 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:09.439 and governing bodies, and like what we're seeing right now 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:11.960 in the United States. Not to be like too political 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:16.280 about it, but we're really just seeing so much actual 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:19.480 international law is a matter of just folks deciding to 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:24.040 play nice and follow the rules, you know, And how 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:29.600 much more influential some of this soft diplomacy stuff can be, 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:34.359 and how you know, this branding kind of these branding 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:37.840 plays can really make more of a lasting impact than 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:40.960 even you know, how you vote in the UN or 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:43.240 like resolutions or even sanctions. 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.760 Yeah, one hundred percent. You know. I think what we're 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.280 all saying here is that makes sense. Yeah, it does. 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:52.520 It's well put. What we're all saying here is, while 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:56.880 Eurovision is a lot of fun, it's hacking minds. It's 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:01.159 building relationships in a way that in institutions like the 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:05.520 United Nations or NATO simply cannot. This is much more 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:11.280 than a singing contest. It is not just international diplomacy 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:17.800 at its finest, it is also international diplomacy at its weirdest, 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:23.439 at its most ridiculous, and that means naturally, Eurovision is 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:28.119 no stranger to controversy. And Noel, you, Max and I 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:32.520 were talking about this a little bit off air. This 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:35.520 is part of why we made this a two part series. 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:41.760 Eurovision has, despite its noble intent and its grand ambition, 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:46.280 been embroiled in so much controversy. We could sum it 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:49.560 up in three rough categories. Maybe we step through those 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:55.040 political tensions between competing countries that hell or high water 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:59.280 will not vote for each other ever at all, not 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:02.520 even if the song is clearly the best song. And 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:07.880 the second controversy is going to be entries or songs 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:16.119 being disqualified due to political references in song lyrics. Just 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:17.000 for an example. 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:20.200 Well, you know, Ben, I don't mean interup. We're gonna 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:22.359 get the examples real quick, but we're no stranger to that. 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:26.120 Over here in the United States, we've certainly seen artists 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:30.280 banned from say Saturday Night Live for Life for rage 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:33.320 shout out to rage, for having an upside down American flag. 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.080 I believe that they were told not to do, and 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:39.080 I also believe they switched songs the last minute. Shout 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:42.760 out to Elvis Costello who did the song radio Radio, 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:48.840 which is a total indictment of the broadcast system and 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:52.040 the idea of like artists and performers being kind of 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:55.960 slaves to these corporate interests. And of course shout out 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:59.760 to Sinad O'Connor for tearing up a photograph of the 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:01.919 post on live television. 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:04.040 Fight the real enemy. 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:06.040 So you know, it's it's and this is not an 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:09.600 exclusively European phenomenon. This is something that you know, when 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:14.440 you're dealing with these live performances, politics can definitely make 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:16.800 things a little bit messy and make things a little 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:20.639 bit difficult for say the network in this case, for 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:21.359 the competition. 0:21:21.720 --> 0:21:27.080 Yeah, at our third category of controversy, here would be demonstrations, 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:33.840 boycott's protests against certain countries. People are saying, don't let 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:38.520 this country compete because of their politics and their policies. 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:42.560 When s talk about the right, probably the most extreme 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:44.680 version of that that's happening right now. 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:48.120 Yeah. Yeah, as we build up to that, let's mention 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:55.840 the ongoing conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan. This these folks 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:59.840 get beefed up, so often in Eurovision. They both in 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:04.800 the late two thousands, but in two thousand and nine, 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:11.200 Get this, there were people in Azerbaijan, civilians, right, not military, 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:16.359 not professional judges or whatever, just regular people watching the 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:21.320 show and they vibed with Armenia's song and they voted 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:26.280 for it, and then later they were visited by law enforcement. 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:31.960 They got a heard you voted wrong. Imagine the police 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:36.720 knocking on your door because you voted wrong. In America's got. 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:40.320 Talent well, and that is not to put too fine 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:42.239 a point on it. The kind of stuff that it's 0:22:42.280 --> 0:22:45.240 easy to take for granted, and that we've talked about 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:47.199 the slippery slope of some of the things going on 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:50.920 here again in this country, that one day some Facebook 0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:55.520 post you liked, or some you know thing you've voted for, 0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:58.800 you know poll you took could come back to haunt 0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:02.639 you if they were to change, and may in certain 0:23:03.000 --> 0:23:06.600 positions are made retroactively quote unquote illegal. 0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:10.920 Right, Yeah, the retroactive illegality is a big concern of mine, 0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:14.080 hopefully for everybody as well. I mean, we also know 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:16.280 there are some illegal. 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:19.360 Is also such a broad term, it might not even 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:22.160 be considered illegal. It's just at this point, the law 0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:27.120 doesn't matter if you have a leader or a desk, 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:29.560 but that has so much power and has so much 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:33.960 influence over law enforcement, the law doesn't even matter. It's 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:37.040 just this person doesn't like you and doesn't like your opinion, 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:39.760 and they're going to come find you and make sure 0:23:39.880 --> 0:23:40.840 that you're on a list. 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:43.879 And then we know where that can go exactly. And 0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:47.120 we also know there are several elephants in the room 0:23:47.359 --> 0:23:53.400 of Eurovision controversy. One of the biggest is obviously going 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:59.560 to be Russia and Ukraine. Now, originally pre twenty fourteen, 0:24:00.840 --> 0:24:09.000 these nations peacefully participated in co competition, right of Eurovision, 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:13.119 We're all having fun. But then Russia invaded an annexed 0:24:13.160 --> 0:24:18.080 Crimea in twenty fourteen, the war and don Bass popped off, 0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:24.879 and in twenty sixteen Ukraine one Eurovision with a song 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:30.560 called nineteen forty four. The lyrics were talking about the 0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:36.000 deportation of Tartars people in Crimea, and because of the 0:24:36.000 --> 0:24:41.520 events in Crimea occurring right at the time, pretty much 0:24:41.600 --> 0:24:46.200 everybody said, hey, this is not a political You guys 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:49.320 know what you're talking about. Everybody knows what you're talking about. 0:24:49.760 --> 0:24:54.440 This is a statement against the nation of Russia. However, 0:24:55.119 --> 0:24:59.680 the boffins, the judges, most importantly the producers and showrunners 0:24:59.680 --> 0:25:03.600 got to together and they said, look, you can compete 0:25:04.320 --> 0:25:09.760 because this song is about history. And the Russian delegation said, no, 0:25:09.880 --> 0:25:10.720 screw you guys. 0:25:10.960 --> 0:25:15.400 Also whose history and which history and which version of history? 0:25:15.560 --> 0:25:20.600 Right? Yeah, just so, I mean we know that the 0:25:20.640 --> 0:25:24.000 country of Georgia, not the state. The country of Georgia 0:25:25.000 --> 0:25:29.240 had gotten in trouble with Russia as well, because after 0:25:29.280 --> 0:25:34.639 the Russo Georgian War, Georgia came out with a song 0:25:34.800 --> 0:25:38.960 called we Don't want to put In, We don't want 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:44.199 to put In, Putin on the ritz. Yeah, And the 0:25:44.240 --> 0:25:48.680 European Broadcasting Union objected to this and they said, look, 0:25:48.800 --> 0:25:54.720 you guys are clearly doing, you know, a sneaky little 0:25:54.760 --> 0:26:00.919 pun and you are criticizing Vladimir Putin. Were not dumb, 0:26:01.080 --> 0:26:03.639 you guys, We're still very plugged in and cool. We 0:26:03.800 --> 0:26:05.600 get it, and you shouldn't do it. Yeah. 0:26:05.640 --> 0:26:07.600 We're seeing some controversies like that, or we did see 0:26:07.600 --> 0:26:10.280 some controversies like that, at least in terms of these 0:26:10.359 --> 0:26:13.760 more low key kind of protests in the recent Winter Olympics, 0:26:14.440 --> 0:26:17.560 specifically surrounding Palestine and Israel. And like I think there 0:26:17.640 --> 0:26:21.040 was like a bobsletter that wore. Yeah, Max has got 0:26:21.040 --> 0:26:25.600 the facts on this one were on his helmet some 0:26:25.640 --> 0:26:28.480 sort of card with names of folks who were killed. 0:26:28.840 --> 0:26:31.560 It was a Ukrainian bob sletter I believe, who had 0:26:31.600 --> 0:26:33.960 like photos of people who had been killed, but in 0:26:33.760 --> 0:26:35.119 the in like the Russian in Vagins. 0:26:35.160 --> 0:26:37.760 So sorry, it wasn't wasn't a Palestine thing it was. 0:26:37.920 --> 0:26:40.560 It was a Ukraine thing, so even more uh. 0:26:40.520 --> 0:26:42.680 And he was he was not allowed to compete with 0:26:42.760 --> 0:26:45.399