WEBVTT - TechStuff Listens to Negativland 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:07.120 Get in touch with technology with text Stuff from how 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:13.520 stuff works dot com. Hey there, guys, and welcome to 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:17.079 text Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland, and I've got 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.400 some rather unusual audio i'd like you to listen to. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:26.200 And uh, do you know how many time zones there 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:29.680 are in the Soviet Union? And about power? We've got 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:31.800 so much power now, do you know how many time 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:34.040 zones there are in the Soviet Union. We've got so 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:37.680 much power. Now, that's ridiculous. Do you know how many 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:40.839 time zones there are in the Soviet Union? Power? And 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:44.600 all that that's power. We've got so much power. That's ridiculous. 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:48.640 We have power, power and power power. What you're hearing 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:51.520 is the work of a performance group called Negative Land. 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:56.200 The band creates interesting sounds from accommodation of electronics, musical instruments, 0:00:56.280 --> 0:01:00.319 and an enormous library of prerecorded audio from sources as 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:04.520 diversus political speeches to music numbers to old television commercial 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:13.319 Guess what I spoke with Mark Hustler, one of the 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:16.800 founding members of Negative Land. Our conversation lasted for more 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.480 than two hours, and we talked about topics like art, music, 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:24.840 intellectual property, and more. Well, this episode has highlights from 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:27.720 that conversation. I really learned a lot, and the first 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.360 thing I wanted to know was how Mark got interested 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:32.440 in this type of art in the first place. I 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:34.360 was really into all kinds of music as a teenager, 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:35.880 and there was just some kind of record that I 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:38.080 wanted to hear that didn't seem to exist. And so 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:40.120 at some point, when I was sixteen or seventeen, you know, 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:41.880 I said, well, I want to let's make We're gonna 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:43.720 make that record, and that's who we did, and it 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:47.200 came out when I was still in high school. The 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:50.680 we in this case was Mark Hustler and Richard Lyons. 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.760 Others would join Negative Land over the years, including Don Joyce, 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:57.120 who hosts the band's weekly radio show, and Ian Allen, 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:01.880 who passed away in early The group's membership changed many 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:05.560 times throughout its existence, and each member contributed a unique perspective. 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:10.080 The band has always been about experimentation. You've got a 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:15.120 good beginning, God meers and trial and era. It's just 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:20.639 the pens again. I'm breaking the records over radio. We've 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:24.360 been around an extremely long time. I've actually known the 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:26.799 guys in the group for thirty six years. Our first 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:30.360 record came out of night and for some reason which 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:34.600 I don't really quite understand, we all just love strange, weird, 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:38.680 funny noises and found things and reusing stuff in ways 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:41.079 they weren't intended to be used. And so our very 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:44.119 first recordings were making tape loops, so you could cut 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:46.280 real to real recording tape and stick one end to 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:48.320 the other and they repeat over and over again, you know, 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:51.720 an echo. And you could stick pieces of metal into 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:55.000 a guitar and make the guitar string sound all strange. 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:58.680 And we were recording things off the TV and radio 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:01.000 and our parents, you know, making in the kitchen and 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:03.880 the sound of the our dog barking outside, and all 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:06.600 this stuff made its way into our into our recorded work, 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:09.280 and it was kind of surreal data, coufy collage. We 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:12.080 also put in beats and sometimes sang little songs, and 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:14.920 it had a somewhat pop kind of sensibility to it 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:17.639 in a way, in a screwy sort of way, one 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:31.280 too stupid, great or dumb five six idiotics. The experiments 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.200 would evolve into projects, and while the tools of the 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:36.880 band used to create their sounds would change, the medium 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:41.160 in which they worked would remain sound collage. Collage is 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:43.000 a medium that I think is one of the easiest 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:45.440 art forms in the world, whether it was sound or 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:51.440 film or visual art, to do something really crappy. It's 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:53.520 really easy to do collage and just have it be 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.600 really mediocre. And I but to to to really get 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.320 it to where it's it's it's at a level that 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.960 we think it's, you know, our our standard. You know. 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:05.280 It requires a lot of work and thinking about it. 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.440 And we've had lots of pieces that get to a point, 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:09.320 but they're just not there yet, you know, and we 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:11.160 sit on them for six months or even a year 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:13.880 later we'll go back. In fact, the band might sit 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:17.440 on a piece for decades. One piece Negative Land recently 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:21.080 revisited is a work called Like Cattle Act the Gun 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:23.440 by the late Vian Well. I was thinking of a 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:30.560 Cadillac Cadillac got Wreck, Cadillac Catillac, Cadillac Cadillac, Cadillac, La Cadillac, 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:34.840 Lack Cadillac Cadillac, Cadillac, Cadillac Cadillac Cadillac, La Cadillac, Lack, 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:37.360 Cadillac Catillac. Alan first worked on the piece back in 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.159 the nineteen eighties. Before his death, Alan gave his blessing 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:43.720 to Negative Land to revisit and finish the recording. Alan 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:48.279 was also instrumental in shaping the band's cultural and social perspectives. 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:50.800 Before long, the band was using its quirky techniques not 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:54.279 just to make interesting sounds, but to provide commentary on 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:57.359 various issues. It just kept being really interesting that you 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.120 could use collage, you know, to talk about stuff in 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:03.600 this way that invited the listener to work on figuring 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:06.279 out what you were getting at into some degree. You know, 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:08.880 we don't spell everything out, but we try to do 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:12.000 something where it's both about stuff, but there's some thing 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:14.720 about it. It's open enough that you're engaged and you're 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.080 drawn in and you're trying to work with it, and 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:19.839 hopefully that's the place where you know, you get something 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:21.680 out of it that's interesting and it's and different for 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:24.080 every person who hears it. And because so many of 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:26.800 the sounds Negative Land uses in its collage work are 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:30.000 taken from other sources, you can't just assume that what 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:33.720 you're hearing and what the band itself thinks are necessarily 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:37.400 the same thing. While we do sometimes actually write song 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.800 lyrics and do songs, most of the spoken word you 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:43.920 hear in our work is appropriated in collage. So it's 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:46.200 not us saying it. We're not. It is not the 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:50.120 author's voice you're hearing it. It's what we chose to use. 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:52.840 Well did we choose to use it? Because we agree 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:54.600 with it? We disagree with it. We like it and 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:59.760 we hate it. We think it's funny, stupid, smart, sad, creepy, annoying, 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.719 you know, surreal, and usually for negative Land, will the 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:05.839 things we pick to you is will usually be something 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:07.480 that will be of many of those things all at 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:23.600 the same time. Listen, this is all that shouting, all 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:27.600 that noise. Ian Allen's involvement would lead to another pivotal 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:31.920 moment in negative lands development, meeting Don Joyce. Joyce is 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:34.560 a radio DJ who not only joined Negative Land, but 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.600 also helped create a venue for the group to express 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:41.360 themselves to a larger audience. It's called Over the Edge 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:44.279 for Negative Land. One of the kind of laboratories for 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:46.880 us to work on new ideas and try out new 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:49.520 stuff is our weekly radio show. It's called Over the Edge. 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:53.880 It's been on, it's still on to this day, and 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:56.640 it's three hours of audio collage that's always about a 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:59.080 theme of some sort or another, and Negative Land member 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:00.600 Don Joyce is the one who has been kind of 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:03.000 the steward of keeping that flame alive all these years. 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:05.400 He uses old radio station cart machines. If any of 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:08.280 you out there are radio makers or listeners are old 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:11.920 enough to know, he uses old school dead analog technology 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:15.200 to play dude live cut ups stuff on the air. Yeah, 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:17.360 we get to try out stuff and occasionally ideas of 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:19.120 emerge from that that we think are good enough to 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.200 take out and turn into studio recordings or maybe a 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:25.120 live show. And for those Negative Land fans who want 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:28.160 to explore that material, band member Tom Maloney has been 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:31.440 hard at work transferring files to archive dot org so 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:35.040 that the thousands of hours of programming will become available 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:39.000 to anyone with an Internet connection. It's a mind blowingly 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.080 huge amount of work that will be available for free. 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.480 As any artist will tell you, art doesn't exist in 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:49.040 a vacuum. Art doesn't just reflect the world around us. 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:52.040 It comments on that world. We see elements of the 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.200 artists thoughts and feelings within his or her art. And 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:57.720 while you might think that creating a collage out of 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:01.520 appropriate material limits and artists ability to comment upon the world, 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.200 you'd be wrong. As Mark explained to me, collage is 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:09.320 just another artistic medium, not significantly different from any other 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:13.400 means of artistic expression. Basically, to me, our work is 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:16.640 no different than somebody lives in a cave ten thousand 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.080 years ago who takes a stick out of the fire 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.040 and uses the burnt end to draw on the cave 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:26.240 wall what's outside of his cave, which could be buffalo 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:29.600 or a mammoth, you know. So that's no different than 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:33.480 me taking a computer, a tape deck, a cassette deck, 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:37.200 a real tool, chape recorder, a digital capturing device, and 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:39.679 I'm capturing the world around me that I live in 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:42.199 the world. It's in my home, the world it's outside 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:45.280 my door. And that world is not just walls and 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:50.520 furniture and trees and blue sky and buildings. It's advertisements, 0:08:50.760 --> 0:09:01.400 it's logos, it's pop songs, it's media absolutely everywhere you go. 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:06.200 And it's great, that's com and so negative lands are 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:10.040 often comments on these facets of life, the way messages 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:13.160 are communicated to us and how we are expected to 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:21.800 react to them. Asciated, and there's another conversation happening as well, 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:27.240 one about ideas ownership and the peculiar institution has changed 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:31.280 the way we treat concepts. Corporations who are immortal, who 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:34.800 now have these ideas of intellectual property. They own this stuff, 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:36.959 so they want to profit from it. They've privatized it. 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:39.680 They've all said, you can consume it, will sell it 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.040 to you, but don't ever think of messing with it. 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:44.240 Don't think about doing anything with it, because we own 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.760 it our property. And I'm kind of saying, well, no, 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:50.360 it's not just your property, because it's inside my head. 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:54.560 You know, it's in my brain, So I'm gonna I 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:56.880 think I'm allowed to do things that have been inserted 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.040 into my brain. You know, I don't want to see 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:02.120 your giant pepsi billboard every time I drive into town, 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:05.439 but I do, so you know, yes, I'm going to 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:07.559 take some of your pepsi ad and I'm going to 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:09.400 cut it up and I'm gonna use it in something 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:11.640 that maybe makes fun of you. And in this case, 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:31.320 it was a project negative landid called Dyspepsi. Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:36.679 what you're compiling is going to be a positive reflection 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:38.840 of for what PEPSI is all about. And the makers 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.960 of their advertising. So I think it's fair to say 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:45.120 that if that's all the case. Uh yeah, this is 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:48.320 part of the marketing spin of Pepsi calif. One of 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.920 my favorite pieces by the band involves a surreal, absurd 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:56.040 radio call in show. This is Pennywise, Joan, You're next, 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:59.360 nice Sue, How can I help Jem? I really have 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.960 a problem impulse buying. I never have money left for anything. 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:06.840 That's a piece of truth and advertising, and that was 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:09.200 where we were able to take it so that every 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:11.520 time the talk show host hung up on the caller 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:13.200 to go to the next caller, it was the same 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:15.520 caller over again and over again because of how we 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:18.240 were able to edit it together and that was all done. 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:20.640 We've always used to call those edits razor takes, because 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.480 those were done with analog, real to real recordiers, and 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:25.360 we would cut them with a razor blake, you know, 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:28.360 to rearrange those things. Okay, let's go to line four. 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:32.079 This is Pennywise. I'm Jim Phillips and your name is Bob. Hi, Bob, 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:34.120 what can I do for you? I get confused by 0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:38.200 all the claims main commercials. This is Pennywise. Line stakes 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:41.360 you're on and your name is. I think it definitely 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:44.280 kind of grabs your attention. There's a real rhythm, there's 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:47.240 a real musicality to the way the voice has been 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.520 is the repeats itself and folds back in on itself. 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:53.600 But but also it gets that something that actually is 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:56.880 a real thing, which is about how advertising impacts us 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:01.160 and how advertisers maybe aren't telling you the truth, you know. 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:03.959 And I don't think it's didactic. I don't think it's 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:05.800 having handed I don't think it's like a we are 0:12:05.920 --> 0:12:09.440 we're wagging wagging our finger at you about the subject. 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:12.200 But it does kind of get get it out there. 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:16.400 It really hit me that what Mark and Negative Land 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:20.760 are doing is incredibly challenging. Anyone can grab a dozen 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.160 or so clips of sound and edit them together to 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:25.959 make something new, but to create something that has a 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:29.160 sense of musical rhythm that can be entertaining and that 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:33.120 can also be a comment on our culture is extraordinary. 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:35.760 It explains how the group can work on a project 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:38.680 for years before it's ready to be released. Once it 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:41.240 is released, that work can get a lot of attention. 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:45.640 Negative Land is no stranger to criticism, controversy, or even 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:49.559 legal action. In fact, one of their most famous works 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:52.720 landed the group in legal trouble for several years. But 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.920 it all started out innocently enough. A fan at a 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:59.760 show of ours handed as a cassette and uh at 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.480 a show that we were partying in Portland, Oregon, and 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:04.800 it had outtakes of top for D d J. Casey 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:08.040 Cason having a really bad day in the studio. Casey Cayson, 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:12.120 as you know, just passed away this summer, and I 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.280 think the engineer's revenge was to get these tapes out 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:18.439 to some people in the public via cassette. Now, back then, 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:20.760 the Internet didn't exist, and so this stuff had a 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:24.559 very very limited audience of just people sharing this stuff. 0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:26.360 And I think if it had come out now, we 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:28.680 wouldn't have been inspired to make that record that we made, 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.040 because everyone would have had it. But we had something 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:33.839 that was kind of seemed very precious, you know, and 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:36.400 and like, you know, and and rare. And it was 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:39.959 also you know, Peter pants funny and just so inspiring. 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.120 And he was trying to do a dedication with family's 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:43.880 dead dog, and he was trying to introduce a new 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:46.320 song by a band. He got the name of their 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:50.040 country origin incorrect, but a band who's been around as 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:52.960 long as Negative Land has a group, You Too. That's 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:55.480 the letter you and the New World Too. The fore 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:58.800 Man band features Adams Clayton on bab Larry Moren on drums, 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:03.120 Dave Evan and nickname the Edge. This is nobody cares. 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:07.280 These guys are in England and we give it. There's 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:09.600 a lot of waste. The name that don't mean Italy. 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:13.720 We ended up using doing a kind of a weird 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:18.280 mutated cover version of a YouTube song. We had Negative 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:22.040 Land member David Wills the Weatherman, do his own dramatic 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:26.120 reinterpretation of Bono's lyrics. We used the casey caseum stuff. 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:28.280 The song was I still found what I'm looking for 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:30.880 and kind of at the end when we were deciding 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.320 how to present it, we ended up deciding to call 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:38.480 the whole thing you Too by Negative Land, And originally 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:40.560 it was actually gonna be you with the dash between 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:42.360 the U and the two, because that's actually how the you. 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:45.040 That's as slight variation on You two's name, which has 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:47.480 no dash, and the YouTube is the airplane, the spy 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.160 plane that was shot down and it's where you two 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:52.880 stole their name from. In the course of designing the 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:55.000 whole thing, our graphic designer we were working with a 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.480 guy named Randall Hunting. Uh. He suggested that we could 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:01.840 make the Uh he says, well, what am I making 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:04.400 the airplane of the YouTube airplane itself, which we were 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:06.120 using as part of the cover design. What about making 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.240 that the dash? And how about we could make the 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:13.080 you two really huge and negative Land really small. I 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.440 think he was just kind of joking, you know, like 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:17.880 because of course you wouldn't really do that, because that 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:20.960 would be insane, right. But of course when we saw it, 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:24.520 we said, that's great genius, you know, yes, that's what 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:26.760 we're gonna do. This is even better. We're gonna make 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:29.240 it look like something it isn't. As it turns out, 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:33.480 this particularly mischievous release would have a long lasting effect 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:36.120 on the group. It didn't take long for you Two's 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.560 management to respond, and it came out in two weeks 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:41.200 after it came out, or I think maybe it was 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:43.640 less maybe ten days after it came out. YouTube's record 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:46.840 label and their publisher, uh, at the instigation of You 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:50.560 Two's manager. We've only found that out about fifteen years later. 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:56.320 But yeah, they suit us for copyright infringement, trademark infringement. Uh, 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:59.240 it has lots of swearing on it, courtesy of Casey Cason. 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:03.120 So they suits for defamation of character for associating this 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:05.360 foul language with the clean cut image of the band 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:09.000 you two. They sued us for failure to get a 0:16:09.040 --> 0:16:11.040 license to do a cover version of a song because 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:12.840 we change the lyrics. You can do a cover version 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:14.760 and just pay a licensing fee, but if you change 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:16.600 the lyrics, you have to get permission. And they also 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:18.800 suit us for fraud, saying it was a get rich 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.960 quick scheme intended to du millions of innocent YouTube fans 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:24.920 into you know, buying this record so we could make 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:27.120 you know, lots of money, so pay through everything we 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:30.080 could think of at us, we had to really look 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:32.240 at what we were doing, even more deeply than we 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:34.360 ever had, you know, and really examine if it was 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:37.120 worth the fight. You know, do we really want to 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:40.160 destroy our lives and lose at the tiny bit of 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:41.800 money we might be making. And we you know, we 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:44.080 were gonna lose a lot by choosing to fight it, 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:46.640 but we we really felt like it was you know, 0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:48.280 it was it was a fight that needed to happen 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:51.640 because at the time, there was nobody making any smart, 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:55.880 thoughtful cultural arguments about this from a progressive point of view. 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:57.600 It was just lawyers, and it was just so it 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:01.920 was just all very conservative, you know, thinking around money, 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.560 profit in ownership in ways that just were culturally very 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:08.320 very smart. And we've been headed this amazing opportunity because 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:10.320 we've been has sued on behalf of the largest rock 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:12.600 band on the planet Earth. So we thought, well, maybe 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:14.879 we could use as a platform to talk about this stuff. 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:16.919 And that turned into an odyssey that took up the 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.080 next four or five years of all of our lives. 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:21.639 I could say literally every day of my life for 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.320 the next four or five years, literally, I was dealing 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:28.680 with some aspect of it. The FBI got involved, there 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.880 were threats made against Casey. We tricked you Tube's guitarist, 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:33.800 The Edge, into an interview he didn't know we were anyway, 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:35.920 all kinds of stuff. It's all documented in a book 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:37.960 we put out called Fair Use The Story of the 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:40.600 Letter You in the numeral two, which actually shows you 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:45.480 the behind the scenes facts. Is lawsuits, press releases, phone calls, transcriptions, 0:17:45.520 --> 0:17:48.200 everything you're never supposed to see when these cases settled 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:50.600 out of court. Is all there in the book in 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:53.840 short chapters, so it makes good bathroom reading. Ultimately, the 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:56.640 band settled out of court and their album was withdrawn, 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:00.600 but that was only the beginning of the battle. Negative 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:03.359 Land only settled because there was literally no way for 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.119 the group to afford to fight the charges in court. 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:10.040 They wished to argue that their appropriation fell under fair use, 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:13.560 that they were creating art from appropriation the same way 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:17.080 that other artists had for years. Andy Warhol's famous works 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:20.600 were commentaries on consumerism and pop culture. How could that 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:24.600 instance be okay? But Negative lands work be considered illegal? 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:27.919 The experience with you two ended up having the opposite 0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:30.919 effect on the band then what was intended. It's been 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:33.840 endlessly fascinating and then we got, you know, actually sumed 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:37.919 for doing it. It politicizes more. It actually made us 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:40.679 kind of bear down on wanting being more committed to 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:44.320 doing this work than ever before. And uh, it's certainly 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:48.560 kept it really really interesting. While Negative Land has always 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:52.760 been interested in culture and consumerism, the legal proceedings brought 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:56.760 to light the complicated matter of copyright and fair use, 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:00.359 which became a new focus for mark Copy Right is 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.480 meant to protect the owner of an original work of authorship. 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.760 In the United States, it's defined as such a work 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:11.680 quote fixed in a tangible medium of expression end quote. 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:16.399 It covers all works, whether published or unpublished. Now, it 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:20.840 doesn't protect facts ideas methods of operation. Some of those 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:24.040 can be protected under other means, like trademarks or patents. 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:26.879 As soon as you have your original work in a 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:31.520 fixed tangible form, it's protected by copyright. That tangible form 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:33.480 doesn't have to be a piece of paper, it can 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:36.480 be code. The law provides for protection of works that 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:39.480 require a machine or device in order for someone to 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:43.560 see or experience it. Registering a copyright is a way 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:47.639 of ensuring protection of your work. Technically, your work is 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:52.520 protected even without registration, but registering creates an official legal 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:56.320 document that establishes your authorship in case you should ever 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:59.679 have to pursue a claim of infringement against someone else. 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:02.320 If you were to create an original work but not 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:06.160 register the copyright, it's possible someone else could steal your 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:08.920 work and register it under his or her own name, 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:13.080 making a claim of ownership more complicated. The concept of 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:16.720 copyright dates all the way back to seventeen ten and 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:20.080 it's changed significantly over the years. Yeah, it was like 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:24.119 twelve thirteen, fourteen years the Statute of Queen Anne. And 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:27.160 whenever I do lectures about this, which I've done quite 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:30.119 a few, it's very rare that people actually know this, 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:33.840 because it sounds shocking to hear it now, because copyright 0:20:33.880 --> 0:20:36.960 nowadays last for the life of the creator. Plus it's 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:40.720 seventy years seventy two, seventy three. The Statute of Anne 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:46.800 establishes copyright lasting fourteen years for new unpublished works, works 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:49.600 that had already been published, and we're under ownership of 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:52.880 some party or another, we're granted twenty one years of protection. 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:56.840 Ever since copyright was established in British law, people and 0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:01.200 entities have attempted to expand its protection. According to Mark, 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:05.080 this trend has become truly destructive, largely due to the 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.960 rise of a particular type of institution, this very strange 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:14.119 creature called the corporation. And we've decided to give corporation 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:16.800 these rights as if they're human. We give them free 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:18.840 speech rights. What I would argue has led to the 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:22.520 total destruction of democracy in this country. But we we 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:25.200 give them all these the perks and privileges of being 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:27.719 a human being, none of the responsibilities. And you know, 0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:30.560 when a corporation does things that lead to the deaths 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:32.960 of thousands of people, we we don't we don't seem 0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:36.200 to give the corporation the death penalty unfortunately. But because 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:40.560 corporations are immortal, in fact, they're not like anything human 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:45.040 at all. They from their perspective, understandably they want to 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:48.760 profit from their property forever. And since we've decided that 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:51.680 ideas are property, intellectual property, you know, it all sort 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:53.440 of it also, you can see how this all starts 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:56.639 to play out in this very bizarre way, um that 0:21:56.760 --> 0:21:59.920 eventually goes kind of off the rails, you know, at 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:02.320 this point. And that's kind of what what Negative Land 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:05.480