1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: Get in touch with technology with text Stuff from how 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Hey there, guys, and welcome to 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: text Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland, and I've got 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: some rather unusual audio i'd like you to listen to. 5 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: And uh, do you know how many time zones there 6 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: are in the Soviet Union? And about power? We've got 7 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: so much power now, do you know how many time 8 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: zones there are in the Soviet Union. We've got so 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: much power. Now, that's ridiculous. Do you know how many 10 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: time zones there are in the Soviet Union? Power? And 11 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: all that that's power. We've got so much power. That's ridiculous. 12 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: We have power, power and power power. What you're hearing 13 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 1: is the work of a performance group called Negative Land. 14 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: The band creates interesting sounds from accommodation of electronics, musical instruments, 15 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:00,319 Speaker 1: and an enormous library of prerecorded audio from sources as 16 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: diversus political speeches to music numbers to old television commercial 17 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: Guess what I spoke with Mark Hustler, one of the 18 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: founding members of Negative Land. Our conversation lasted for more 19 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: than two hours, and we talked about topics like art, music, 20 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: intellectual property, and more. Well, this episode has highlights from 21 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: that conversation. I really learned a lot, and the first 22 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: thing I wanted to know was how Mark got interested 23 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: in this type of art in the first place. I 24 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: was really into all kinds of music as a teenager, 25 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: and there was just some kind of record that I 26 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: wanted to hear that didn't seem to exist. And so 27 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: at some point, when I was sixteen or seventeen, you know, 28 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: I said, well, I want to let's make We're gonna 29 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: make that record, and that's who we did, and it 30 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: came out when I was still in high school. The 31 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: we in this case was Mark Hustler and Richard Lyons. 32 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: Others would join Negative Land over the years, including Don Joyce, 33 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: who hosts the band's weekly radio show, and Ian Allen, 34 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: who passed away in early The group's membership changed many 35 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: times throughout its existence, and each member contributed a unique perspective. 36 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: The band has always been about experimentation. You've got a 37 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: good beginning, God meers and trial and era. It's just 38 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: the pens again. I'm breaking the records over radio. We've 39 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: been around an extremely long time. I've actually known the 40 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 1: guys in the group for thirty six years. Our first 41 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 1: record came out of night and for some reason which 42 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: I don't really quite understand, we all just love strange, weird, 43 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: funny noises and found things and reusing stuff in ways 44 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: they weren't intended to be used. And so our very 45 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,119 Speaker 1: first recordings were making tape loops, so you could cut 46 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: real to real recording tape and stick one end to 47 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: the other and they repeat over and over again, you know, 48 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: an echo. And you could stick pieces of metal into 49 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: a guitar and make the guitar string sound all strange. 50 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: And we were recording things off the TV and radio 51 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: and our parents, you know, making in the kitchen and 52 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: the sound of the our dog barking outside, and all 53 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: this stuff made its way into our into our recorded work, 54 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: and it was kind of surreal data, coufy collage. We 55 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: also put in beats and sometimes sang little songs, and 56 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 1: it had a somewhat pop kind of sensibility to it 57 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 1: in a way, in a screwy sort of way, one 58 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: too stupid, great or dumb five six idiotics. The experiments 59 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: would evolve into projects, and while the tools of the 60 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: band used to create their sounds would change, the medium 61 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: in which they worked would remain sound collage. Collage is 62 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 1: a medium that I think is one of the easiest 63 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: art forms in the world, whether it was sound or 64 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: film or visual art, to do something really crappy. It's 65 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: really easy to do collage and just have it be 66 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: really mediocre. And I but to to to really get 67 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: it to where it's it's it's at a level that 68 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: we think it's, you know, our our standard. You know. 69 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: It requires a lot of work and thinking about it. 70 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: And we've had lots of pieces that get to a point, 71 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: but they're just not there yet, you know, and we 72 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: sit on them for six months or even a year 73 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: later we'll go back. In fact, the band might sit 74 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: on a piece for decades. One piece Negative Land recently 75 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: revisited is a work called Like Cattle Act the Gun 76 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: by the late Vian Well. I was thinking of a 77 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: Cadillac Cadillac got Wreck, Cadillac Catillac, Cadillac Cadillac, Cadillac, La Cadillac, 78 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 1: Lack Cadillac Cadillac, Cadillac, Cadillac Cadillac Cadillac, La Cadillac, Lack, 79 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: Cadillac Catillac. Alan first worked on the piece back in 80 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. Before his death, Alan gave his blessing 81 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: to Negative Land to revisit and finish the recording. Alan 82 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: was also instrumental in shaping the band's cultural and social perspectives. 83 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: Before long, the band was using its quirky techniques not 84 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: just to make interesting sounds, but to provide commentary on 85 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 1: various issues. It just kept being really interesting that you 86 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: could use collage, you know, to talk about stuff in 87 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,600 Speaker 1: this way that invited the listener to work on figuring 88 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: out what you were getting at into some degree. You know, 89 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: we don't spell everything out, but we try to do 90 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: something where it's both about stuff, but there's some thing 91 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: about it. It's open enough that you're engaged and you're 92 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: drawn in and you're trying to work with it, and 93 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 1: hopefully that's the place where you know, you get something 94 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: out of it that's interesting and it's and different for 95 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: every person who hears it. And because so many of 96 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: the sounds Negative Land uses in its collage work are 97 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: taken from other sources, you can't just assume that what 98 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: you're hearing and what the band itself thinks are necessarily 99 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: the same thing. While we do sometimes actually write song 100 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: lyrics and do songs, most of the spoken word you 101 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: hear in our work is appropriated in collage. So it's 102 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: not us saying it. We're not. It is not the 103 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: author's voice you're hearing it. It's what we chose to use. 104 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: Well did we choose to use it? Because we agree 105 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: with it? We disagree with it. We like it and 106 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: we hate it. We think it's funny, stupid, smart, sad, creepy, annoying, 107 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: you know, surreal, and usually for negative Land, will the 108 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: things we pick to you is will usually be something 109 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: that will be of many of those things all at 110 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: the same time. Listen, this is all that shouting, all 111 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: that noise. Ian Allen's involvement would lead to another pivotal 112 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: moment in negative lands development, meeting Don Joyce. Joyce is 113 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: a radio DJ who not only joined Negative Land, but 114 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: also helped create a venue for the group to express 115 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 1: themselves to a larger audience. It's called Over the Edge 116 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: for Negative Land. One of the kind of laboratories for 117 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: us to work on new ideas and try out new 118 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: stuff is our weekly radio show. It's called Over the Edge. 119 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: It's been on, it's still on to this day, and 120 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: it's three hours of audio collage that's always about a 121 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: theme of some sort or another, and Negative Land member 122 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: Don Joyce is the one who has been kind of 123 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: the steward of keeping that flame alive all these years. 124 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: He uses old radio station cart machines. If any of 125 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: you out there are radio makers or listeners are old 126 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: enough to know, he uses old school dead analog technology 127 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: to play dude live cut ups stuff on the air. Yeah, 128 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: we get to try out stuff and occasionally ideas of 129 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: emerge from that that we think are good enough to 130 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: take out and turn into studio recordings or maybe a 131 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: live show. And for those Negative Land fans who want 132 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: to explore that material, band member Tom Maloney has been 133 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: hard at work transferring files to archive dot org so 134 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: that the thousands of hours of programming will become available 135 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: to anyone with an Internet connection. It's a mind blowingly 136 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: huge amount of work that will be available for free. 137 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: As any artist will tell you, art doesn't exist in 138 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: a vacuum. Art doesn't just reflect the world around us. 139 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: It comments on that world. We see elements of the 140 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: artists thoughts and feelings within his or her art. And 141 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: while you might think that creating a collage out of 142 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: appropriate material limits and artists ability to comment upon the world, 143 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: you'd be wrong. As Mark explained to me, collage is 144 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: just another artistic medium, not significantly different from any other 145 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: means of artistic expression. Basically, to me, our work is 146 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: no different than somebody lives in a cave ten thousand 147 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: years ago who takes a stick out of the fire 148 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: and uses the burnt end to draw on the cave 149 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: wall what's outside of his cave, which could be buffalo 150 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: or a mammoth, you know. So that's no different than 151 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: me taking a computer, a tape deck, a cassette deck, 152 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: a real tool, chape recorder, a digital capturing device, and 153 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 1: I'm capturing the world around me that I live in 154 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: the world. It's in my home, the world it's outside 155 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: my door. And that world is not just walls and 156 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: furniture and trees and blue sky and buildings. It's advertisements, 157 00:08:50,760 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: it's logos, it's pop songs, it's media absolutely everywhere you go. 158 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: And it's great, that's com and so negative lands are 159 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: often comments on these facets of life, the way messages 160 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: are communicated to us and how we are expected to 161 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: react to them. Asciated, and there's another conversation happening as well, 162 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: one about ideas ownership and the peculiar institution has changed 163 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: the way we treat concepts. Corporations who are immortal, who 164 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: now have these ideas of intellectual property. They own this stuff, 165 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,959 Speaker 1: so they want to profit from it. They've privatized it. 166 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: They've all said, you can consume it, will sell it 167 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: to you, but don't ever think of messing with it. 168 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: Don't think about doing anything with it, because we own 169 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: it our property. And I'm kind of saying, well, no, 170 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: it's not just your property, because it's inside my head. 171 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: You know, it's in my brain, So I'm gonna I 172 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: think I'm allowed to do things that have been inserted 173 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: into my brain. You know, I don't want to see 174 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: your giant pepsi billboard every time I drive into town, 175 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 1: but I do, so you know, yes, I'm going to 176 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 1: take some of your pepsi ad and I'm going to 177 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: cut it up and I'm gonna use it in something 178 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: that maybe makes fun of you. And in this case, 179 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: it was a project negative landid called Dyspepsi. Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, 180 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: what you're compiling is going to be a positive reflection 181 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: of for what PEPSI is all about. And the makers 182 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 1: of their advertising. So I think it's fair to say 183 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: that if that's all the case. Uh yeah, this is 184 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: part of the marketing spin of Pepsi calif. One of 185 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: my favorite pieces by the band involves a surreal, absurd 186 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: radio call in show. This is Pennywise, Joan, You're next, 187 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: nice Sue, How can I help Jem? I really have 188 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: a problem impulse buying. I never have money left for anything. 189 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: That's a piece of truth and advertising, and that was 190 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: where we were able to take it so that every 191 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: time the talk show host hung up on the caller 192 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: to go to the next caller, it was the same 193 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: caller over again and over again because of how we 194 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: were able to edit it together and that was all done. 195 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: We've always used to call those edits razor takes, because 196 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: those were done with analog, real to real recordiers, and 197 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: we would cut them with a razor blake, you know, 198 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: to rearrange those things. Okay, let's go to line four. 199 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: This is Pennywise. I'm Jim Phillips and your name is Bob. Hi, Bob, 200 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: what can I do for you? I get confused by 201 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: all the claims main commercials. This is Pennywise. Line stakes 202 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: you're on and your name is. I think it definitely 203 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: kind of grabs your attention. There's a real rhythm, there's 204 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: a real musicality to the way the voice has been 205 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: is the repeats itself and folds back in on itself. 206 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: But but also it gets that something that actually is 207 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: a real thing, which is about how advertising impacts us 208 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: and how advertisers maybe aren't telling you the truth, you know. 209 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 1: And I don't think it's didactic. I don't think it's 210 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: having handed I don't think it's like a we are 211 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: we're wagging wagging our finger at you about the subject. 212 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,200 Speaker 1: But it does kind of get get it out there. 213 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: It really hit me that what Mark and Negative Land 214 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: are doing is incredibly challenging. Anyone can grab a dozen 215 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: or so clips of sound and edit them together to 216 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,959 Speaker 1: make something new, but to create something that has a 217 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: sense of musical rhythm that can be entertaining and that 218 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: can also be a comment on our culture is extraordinary. 219 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: It explains how the group can work on a project 220 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: for years before it's ready to be released. Once it 221 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: is released, that work can get a lot of attention. 222 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: Negative Land is no stranger to criticism, controversy, or even 223 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 1: legal action. In fact, one of their most famous works 224 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: landed the group in legal trouble for several years. But 225 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: it all started out innocently enough. A fan at a 226 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: show of ours handed as a cassette and uh at 227 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: a show that we were partying in Portland, Oregon, and 228 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: it had outtakes of top for D d J. Casey 229 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: Cason having a really bad day in the studio. Casey Cayson, 230 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: as you know, just passed away this summer, and I 231 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: think the engineer's revenge was to get these tapes out 232 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,439 Speaker 1: to some people in the public via cassette. Now, back then, 233 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: the Internet didn't exist, and so this stuff had a 234 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,559 Speaker 1: very very limited audience of just people sharing this stuff. 235 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: And I think if it had come out now, we 236 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't have been inspired to make that record that we made, 237 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: because everyone would have had it. But we had something 238 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,839 Speaker 1: that was kind of seemed very precious, you know, and 239 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: and like, you know, and and rare. And it was 240 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,959 Speaker 1: also you know, Peter pants funny and just so inspiring. 241 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: And he was trying to do a dedication with family's 242 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: dead dog, and he was trying to introduce a new 243 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: song by a band. He got the name of their 244 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: country origin incorrect, but a band who's been around as 245 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: long as Negative Land has a group, You Too. That's 246 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: the letter you and the New World Too. The fore 247 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: Man band features Adams Clayton on bab Larry Moren on drums, 248 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: Dave Evan and nickname the Edge. This is nobody cares. 249 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: These guys are in England and we give it. There's 250 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: a lot of waste. The name that don't mean Italy. 251 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: We ended up using doing a kind of a weird 252 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: mutated cover version of a YouTube song. We had Negative 253 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: Land member David Wills the Weatherman, do his own dramatic 254 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: reinterpretation of Bono's lyrics. We used the casey caseum stuff. 255 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: The song was I still found what I'm looking for 256 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: and kind of at the end when we were deciding 257 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: how to present it, we ended up deciding to call 258 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: the whole thing you Too by Negative Land, And originally 259 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: it was actually gonna be you with the dash between 260 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: the U and the two, because that's actually how the you. 261 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: That's as slight variation on You two's name, which has 262 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: no dash, and the YouTube is the airplane, the spy 263 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: plane that was shot down and it's where you two 264 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: stole their name from. In the course of designing the 265 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: whole thing, our graphic designer we were working with a 266 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: guy named Randall Hunting. Uh. He suggested that we could 267 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: make the Uh he says, well, what am I making 268 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: the airplane of the YouTube airplane itself, which we were 269 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: using as part of the cover design. What about making 270 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: that the dash? And how about we could make the 271 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: you two really huge and negative Land really small. I 272 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: think he was just kind of joking, you know, like 273 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: because of course you wouldn't really do that, because that 274 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: would be insane, right. But of course when we saw it, 275 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: we said, that's great genius, you know, yes, that's what 276 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: we're gonna do. This is even better. We're gonna make 277 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: it look like something it isn't. As it turns out, 278 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: this particularly mischievous release would have a long lasting effect 279 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: on the group. It didn't take long for you Two's 280 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: management to respond, and it came out in two weeks 281 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: after it came out, or I think maybe it was 282 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: less maybe ten days after it came out. YouTube's record 283 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: label and their publisher, uh, at the instigation of You 284 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: Two's manager. We've only found that out about fifteen years later. 285 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: But yeah, they suit us for copyright infringement, trademark infringement. Uh, 286 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: it has lots of swearing on it, courtesy of Casey Cason. 287 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: So they suits for defamation of character for associating this 288 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: foul language with the clean cut image of the band 289 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: you two. They sued us for failure to get a 290 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: license to do a cover version of a song because 291 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: we change the lyrics. You can do a cover version 292 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: and just pay a licensing fee, but if you change 293 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: the lyrics, you have to get permission. And they also 294 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: suit us for fraud, saying it was a get rich 295 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: quick scheme intended to du millions of innocent YouTube fans 296 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: into you know, buying this record so we could make 297 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: you know, lots of money, so pay through everything we 298 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: could think of at us, we had to really look 299 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: at what we were doing, even more deeply than we 300 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: ever had, you know, and really examine if it was 301 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 1: worth the fight. You know, do we really want to 302 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: destroy our lives and lose at the tiny bit of 303 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: money we might be making. And we you know, we 304 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: were gonna lose a lot by choosing to fight it, 305 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: but we we really felt like it was you know, 306 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: it was it was a fight that needed to happen 307 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: because at the time, there was nobody making any smart, 308 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: thoughtful cultural arguments about this from a progressive point of view. 309 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: It was just lawyers, and it was just so it 310 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: was just all very conservative, you know, thinking around money, 311 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: profit in ownership in ways that just were culturally very 312 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: very smart. And we've been headed this amazing opportunity because 313 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: we've been has sued on behalf of the largest rock 314 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: band on the planet Earth. So we thought, well, maybe 315 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: we could use as a platform to talk about this stuff. 316 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: And that turned into an odyssey that took up the 317 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: next four or five years of all of our lives. 318 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: I could say literally every day of my life for 319 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: the next four or five years, literally, I was dealing 320 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: with some aspect of it. The FBI got involved, there 321 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 1: were threats made against Casey. We tricked you Tube's guitarist, 322 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: The Edge, into an interview he didn't know we were anyway, 323 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff. It's all documented in a book 324 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: we put out called Fair Use The Story of the 325 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: Letter You in the numeral two, which actually shows you 326 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: the behind the scenes facts. Is lawsuits, press releases, phone calls, transcriptions, 327 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 1: everything you're never supposed to see when these cases settled 328 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: out of court. Is all there in the book in 329 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: short chapters, so it makes good bathroom reading. Ultimately, the 330 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 1: band settled out of court and their album was withdrawn, 331 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: but that was only the beginning of the battle. Negative 332 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: Land only settled because there was literally no way for 333 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: the group to afford to fight the charges in court. 334 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: They wished to argue that their appropriation fell under fair use, 335 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: that they were creating art from appropriation the same way 336 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: that other artists had for years. Andy Warhol's famous works 337 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: were commentaries on consumerism and pop culture. How could that 338 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: instance be okay? But Negative lands work be considered illegal? 339 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,919 Speaker 1: The experience with you two ended up having the opposite 340 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 1: effect on the band then what was intended. It's been 341 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: endlessly fascinating and then we got, you know, actually sumed 342 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 1: for doing it. It politicizes more. It actually made us 343 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: kind of bear down on wanting being more committed to 344 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: doing this work than ever before. And uh, it's certainly 345 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: kept it really really interesting. While Negative Land has always 346 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: been interested in culture and consumerism, the legal proceedings brought 347 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: to light the complicated matter of copyright and fair use, 348 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: which became a new focus for mark Copy Right is 349 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: meant to protect the owner of an original work of authorship. 350 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: In the United States, it's defined as such a work 351 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 1: quote fixed in a tangible medium of expression end quote. 352 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: It covers all works, whether published or unpublished. Now, it 353 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: doesn't protect facts ideas methods of operation. Some of those 354 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: can be protected under other means, like trademarks or patents. 355 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 1: As soon as you have your original work in a 356 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: fixed tangible form, it's protected by copyright. That tangible form 357 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be a piece of paper, it can 358 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: be code. The law provides for protection of works that 359 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: require a machine or device in order for someone to 360 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: see or experience it. Registering a copyright is a way 361 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: of ensuring protection of your work. Technically, your work is 362 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: protected even without registration, but registering creates an official legal 363 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: document that establishes your authorship in case you should ever 364 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 1: have to pursue a claim of infringement against someone else. 365 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: If you were to create an original work but not 366 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: register the copyright, it's possible someone else could steal your 367 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: work and register it under his or her own name, 368 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: making a claim of ownership more complicated. The concept of 369 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: copyright dates all the way back to seventeen ten and 370 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: it's changed significantly over the years. Yeah, it was like 371 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: twelve thirteen, fourteen years the Statute of Queen Anne. And 372 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: whenever I do lectures about this, which I've done quite 373 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: a few, it's very rare that people actually know this, 374 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: because it sounds shocking to hear it now, because copyright 375 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: nowadays last for the life of the creator. Plus it's 376 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: seventy years seventy two, seventy three. The Statute of Anne 377 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: establishes copyright lasting fourteen years for new unpublished works, works 378 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: that had already been published, and we're under ownership of 379 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 1: some party or another, we're granted twenty one years of protection. 380 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: Ever since copyright was established in British law, people and 381 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 1: entities have attempted to expand its protection. According to Mark, 382 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: this trend has become truly destructive, largely due to the 383 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: rise of a particular type of institution, this very strange 384 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: creature called the corporation. And we've decided to give corporation 385 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: these rights as if they're human. We give them free 386 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: speech rights. What I would argue has led to the 387 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: total destruction of democracy in this country. But we we 388 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: give them all these the perks and privileges of being 389 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,719 Speaker 1: a human being, none of the responsibilities. And you know, 390 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: when a corporation does things that lead to the deaths 391 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: of thousands of people, we we don't we don't seem 392 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: to give the corporation the death penalty unfortunately. But because 393 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: corporations are immortal, in fact, they're not like anything human 394 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: at all. They from their perspective, understandably they want to 395 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: profit from their property forever. And since we've decided that 396 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: ideas are property, intellectual property, you know, it all sort 397 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 1: of it also, you can see how this all starts 398 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 1: to play out in this very bizarre way, um that 399 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: eventually goes kind of off the rails, you know, at 400 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: this point. And that's kind of what what Negative Land 401 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: got drawn into was. Because our work does appropriate things 402 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 1: and makes this collage and to to talk about the 403 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: culture and the country in the world we live in, 404 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: we found that our work was kind of colliding, you know, 405 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 1: head first into these these these ideas about copyright, which 406 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 1: had just become completely crazy, you know, just ridiculous. I 407 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: agree with a lot of what Mark saying. He and 408 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: I both acknowledge that copyright has an important role. People 409 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: who create original works should have some measure of protection 410 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: so that they can receive compensation for their work. A 411 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: world without copyright could be chaotic and unfair, but so 412 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: can a world with copyright that extends well beyond what 413 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: its creators intended. Remember when I said that copyright protection 414 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: originally only lasted fourteen years for new works, the story 415 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: has changed significantly today in the United States, a new 416 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: original work last the life of the author, plus an 417 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:01,919 Speaker 1: additional seventy years. This has had enormous implications and the publishing, music, 418 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: and artistic spheres. It's a balancing act. And that's what 419 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: kind of has been lost in a lot of the 420 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: conversation about all this is that it's it's kind of 421 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: treated like it's an omnipotent property right of some sort. 422 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: And that's why I was saying that when copyright first began, 423 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: it was an incredibly short period of time. But but 424 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: the this was not some radical idea that would be 425 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: that short. In fact, it was that that was a 426 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: conservative idea, you know, that was that seemed long enough, 427 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: you know, to give you a chance to profit from 428 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 1: your your creativity. And I should also add that just 429 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: the very idea of taking the word intellectual and property 430 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: and jamming them into each other to make one expression 431 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: is very strange when you think about it, that we've 432 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: decided that ideas are things. You know. It's it's an 433 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: incredibly abstract idea and it and it only is true 434 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: because we've all just sort of agreed that it's true. 435 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: Though in the case of negative Land, we decided that 436 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: we didn't really like that particular hallucination and we wanted 437 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: to a nord A lot. This shift toward extending protection 438 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: beyond the life of the creator has had other consequences 439 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: as well. Corporations that own intellectual property go to great 440 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 1: links to protect that property. If there's a prospect of 441 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: generating revenue off of an original work, it's worth investigating 442 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: how to protect it. This leads to ideas like digital 443 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: rights management, which is intended to provide protection to corporations, 444 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: but often has the unintended consequence of negatively impacting the 445 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: honest consumer more than any pirate. As Mark explains, this 446 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: is a problem that the industry itself is painfully aware 447 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: of and yet isn't sure how to change. I was 448 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: actually at a conference on copyright law in Washington, d C. 449 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: And I remember speaking to somebody who was from the 450 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: r I double a. I said, this is what do 451 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,120 Speaker 1: you guys talk about behind closed doors? You know, isn't 452 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: it kind of bizarre that you're basically taking legal action 453 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: again at your customers? I mean, you don't you you 454 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: realize that every fourteen year old kid growing up basically 455 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 1: hates you, you know, just knows the cat is out 456 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: of the bag about how absolutely ugly your business is 457 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: and how you take advantage of artists, etcetera, etcetera. He 458 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: kind of sheepishly kind of said, well, yeah, we kind 459 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: of look at it like chemotherapy, and I just hope 460 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: that that the patient doesn't completely die, you know, during 461 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: given the treatment that we're giving it. You know. But yes, 462 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: we're perfectly aware that this just comes off really horribly, 463 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: you know, but we don't know what else to do. 464 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: As Mark points out, the concepts of ownership are deeply 465 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: ingrained in culture and economic models. That's not to say 466 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: ownership is bad, but it does complicate matters, particularly when 467 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 1: we extend the concept of ownership to institutions that could 468 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: potentially live forever. But there are limits to copyright, and 469 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 1: not just in how long protection lasts. You don't have 470 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: to wait until the work goes into public domain before 471 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 1: you can talk about it in some other format. For example, 472 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: This brings up the concept of fair use. Hey, well, 473 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: here's an example. Anyone listening, I'm sure you've read a 474 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: review of a book or seen a review of a 475 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: movie on your television or digital device. And that's where 476 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 1: fair use comes into play. When you review that, you 477 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 1: don't have to get permission to use a clip of 478 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 1: the film, You don't have to get permission to excerpt 479 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 1: from the book. That's considered fair use. You were using 480 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: someone else's intellectual property within your intellectual property to talk 481 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 1: about that other intellectual property now, and so fair use 482 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: was trying to acknowledge that, and fairies had four factors 483 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: to it. But the first one, I think was you know, 484 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: are you are you using any bit of someone else's 485 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: intellctual property? The next one was you know how much 486 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,360 Speaker 1: of it are you using? And in what way are 487 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 1: you are? Are you not transforming it in some way 488 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 1: or changing it? And what is the context in which 489 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,199 Speaker 1: it is reappearing? Is it in a different medium, is 490 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: it in a different market? Could there be some confusion 491 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 1: between what you've done in the original in some way? 492 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: So there's these different factors that are supposed to be 493 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,360 Speaker 1: weighed when the courts are looking at these things, And 494 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: for many, many years, the courts didn't look at all 495 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: four factors. They just looked at the first one. Did 496 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: you use some of it? Well, if you did, then 497 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 1: you're a thief and you lose, you know, and you're 498 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 1: you know, you're you're you're the bad guy here. And 499 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: for many, many years, that's kind of how the courts 500 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 1: look at things, and that's why there's a lot of 501 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: really bad legal decisions that have been made over the years. 502 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: Um So the laws haven't changed, you know. Unfortunately, we 503 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 1: haven't seen any any smart, progressive legal changes to intellectual 504 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: property law. There haven't been any cases that have gone 505 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: through the court systems to really do that in a 506 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: long long time. And this is a big problem. Very 507 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: use is something that ends up being decided in a 508 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 1: court on a case by case basis. Very use is 509 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 1: a defense. There's no codified set of rules that lets 510 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,240 Speaker 1: you create a checklist to make sure you won't be food. 511 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: You could create a work that sites of pre existing 512 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: piece owned by someone else and follow all the rules 513 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: and still get sued. You might eventually win that court case, 514 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 1: but it's going to cost you just to be involved. 515 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,959 Speaker 1: Some entities like YouTube respond to copyright infringement notices by 516 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: immediately taking down the infringing material. Sometimes this happens automatically, 517 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: and the content owner has to flip a virtual switch 518 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 1: to allow the other video to go back up online. 519 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,439 Speaker 1: So if you create a video series in which you 520 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: critique films or television or some other form of media, 521 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 1: you could run into the issue of having your work 522 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: taken down. Even if you're following the rules. You could 523 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: get that video restored if it meets fair use criteria, 524 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: but it takes a lot of effort. If all original 525 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: works were truly original, perhaps I would see this entire 526 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: system as being tough but fair. But the truth is 527 00:28:55,680 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: no work is truly original. Creators have influences. Art doesn't 528 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: bloom spontaneously in a vacuum. The real question is to 529 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: what extent does a work stand up on its own 530 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: versus relying upon the pre existing work that influenced it. 531 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,479 Speaker 1: That's not an easy or an expensive question to answer. 532 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: It is deprogram from the universal media netted well as 533 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: for Negative Land, they released a new album late in 534 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen called It's All in your Head. It's 535 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: a college piece that examines religious beliefs, not necessarily specific beliefs, 536 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: but why we believe things in the first place. You're 537 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: listening to It's All in your Head FM monotheism but 538 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: in stereo. The project was born out of discussions within 539 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: Negative Land itself. None of us had ever talked to 540 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: each other about our religious beliefs. I mean, I've known 541 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: these guys, some of them since i was a teenager. 542 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: And we had to work all that out because in fact, 543 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: we don't all agree. You know, there's atheists, there's a NaSTA, 544 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: you know, there's there's different perspectives on this, and we 545 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: had to be sure that was all reflection in the 546 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: work as well. Um, So that that was another really 547 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: interesting kind of behind the scenes part of creating the 548 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: whole thing. So we would have huge debates over single 549 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: words that we're being used in it. You know, one 550 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: sentence that what is it going to be there, We're 551 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: gonna cut it out, you know, typical just super o 552 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: c D negative lanned, you know, obsesso, you know, microscopic 553 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: thinking that we do the poetry. We reached to arts 554 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: to try to begin to articulate what those things are. 555 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: And I think that we have to acknowledge that we're 556 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: in this realm when we begin to talk about this, 557 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: and if we take the symbols and don't acknowledge that 558 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 1: they're symbols, then we get into this trouble. The album 559 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: is organized on a pair of c ds referred to 560 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: as acts. If you buy the physical album, your packaging 561 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,560 Speaker 1: is a King James version of the Bible. There was 562 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: a limited edition version packaged in copies of the Kuran, 563 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: but it has since sold out. While the album takes 564 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: a critical look at belief systems, it also avoids passing judgment. 565 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: Sections of the album explore ideas such as how the 566 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: brain processes information to how cultures define and interpret beliefs. 567 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: Mark explains why the group chose to package the album 568 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: inside a Bible, but having it inside of a Bible 569 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: framed it in this way that I personally just love, 570 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: you know, and I think all of us just love 571 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 1: the idea that you're using the Bible as a repurposed 572 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: found object, and also anyway that the Bible is the 573 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: liner notes you know to the record. I've listened to 574 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: the album in full and found it provocative. There were 575 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: times that it made me think, in times when I 576 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: had a very strong emotional reaction to what was going 577 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: on in the album. It's the sort of reaction I 578 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 1: imagine many artists hope for when they create their works. 579 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: And it marked a very different experience to listening to 580 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: audio entertainment than what I'd become used to. It's rare 581 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: these days that sit down to listen to an album 582 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: in full. I'm more likely to listen to my entire 583 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: music collection on shuffle or even a larger collection streaming 584 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: online following some cryptic algorithm that supposedly anticipates what I'll 585 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: want to hear next. But that's not how negative Land 586 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: intends you to listen to their work. I actually when 587 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: I give people copies of our of our music, and 588 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: I say, you know, I know it's a lot to 589 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: ask in this day and age, but wait until I 590 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: don't care if it's a year from now, wait until 591 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: you have an actual hour of your time to do 592 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: nothing else except just listen to this thing from beginning 593 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: to end. And um and I think you might enjoy it, 594 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 1: I said, if you just have it on in the 595 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: background or just listen to separate tracks. I said, it 596 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: won't even make sense, it will probably even just be annoying. 597 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: And so It's All in Your Head is like that. 598 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: It's too complete. It's one complete work, it's got two 599 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: acts to it, but it's very much designed to be 600 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: listened to in its entirety. We have a huge debate 601 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: about whether or not to put track points in it 602 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: for for downloading and for CDs, because it kind of 603 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: suggests or encourages people to put it into random shuffle play. 604 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: But we also don't like the idea of trying to 605 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: control someone's experience that much and just have to be 606 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: one long track. Plus I know people will just break 607 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: it up into tracks anyway. Negative Lands It's All on 608 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: Your Head is available for purchase from their website negative 609 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: land dot com. That's n E g A T I 610 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: V l A n d dot com. You can also 611 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: find their other work exploring all sorts of issues as 612 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: well as learn more about concepts like culture jamming. I 613 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: really appreciate Mark taking the time to talk with me 614 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: about his career, the world of art and collage, and 615 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: and how copyright law has made it difficult to provide 616 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 1: artistic commentary on the world around us. I've also got 617 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: to thank my producer Noel for putting in a ridiculous 618 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: amount of work to bring all this together and for 619 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: his expertise in general. As for the future, I imagine 620 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: that as younger generations who have grown up with tools 621 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 1: to create mashups and remixes grow into leadership positions, will 622 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: see a shift in copyright law. Will artists went out 623 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: over corporations? What do you think? Let me know by 624 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: sending your thoughts to text stuff at how stuff works 625 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,280 Speaker 1: dot com. Remember that you can follow us on Twitter, Facebook, 626 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 1: and Tumblr at the handle text stuff hs W, and 627 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: I'll talk to you again really soon for more on 628 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff 629 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: works dot com