WEBVTT - What It Takes to Negotiate With China 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:07.160 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:11.000 The trade war between the US and China is on pause. 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:15.120 Officials from both countries have lowered tariffs temporarily, and they've 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.680 agreed to keep talking. Both countries hope they'll be able 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:21.840 to draft a new trade deal by early August. Wall 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:25.160 Street welcomed that news, but it is an ambitious timetable, 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:27.160 and I wanted to get a better sense of how 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:30.280 realistic it is that in ninety days the US and 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:33.240 China could resolve their differences and the trade war between 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:36.840 the world's two largest economies could end. So I called 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:39.680 up Nicholas Burns, who was the US ambassador to China 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:42.879 under President Biden. It's one of the toughest jobs in government. 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:47.880 You've got to both defend and push and resist on 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:50.199 one hand, and then you've got to stretch out your 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:52.839 hand to work with them and shake their hand on 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.000 the other. But that makes for a very complicated relationship. 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.320 Burns's job in Beijing was the capstone of a decade's 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:03.000 long career diplomat. He's held senior jobs under Republican and 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:07.080 Democratic presidents. Now, Burns is a professor of diplomacy and 0:01:07.200 --> 0:01:10.360 international relations at the Harvard Kennedy School, which is where 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:12.520 I sat down with him this week to talk about 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:15.880 what he says is the most important relationship that the 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:22.120 United States has. I'm David Gura, and this is the 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:25.959 big take from Bloomberg News Today. On the show, Nicholas Burns, 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.000 the former US Ambassador to China, on the trade war, 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:32.160 the challenges facing his successor, who was just confirmed by 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:35.280 the US Senate, and what he's telling his students at Harvard. 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:45.480 We're worried about the future of diplomacy. I want to 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:47.760 start with the meetings that took place over the weekend 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:50.680 in Geneva, and I'm curious how you look at the 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.360 way they unfolded and the outcome of them. 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:55.279 Do you see it as a positive step? 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:58.080 Well, first of all, I started from a first principle, 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:01.320 and that is that China's been the largest and most 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:05.600 important disruptor in the global trade system for about three decades. 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:06.040 Right now. 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:09.959 There's a reason why the United States and many other 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:13.560 countries around the world have placed terraces on China. China's 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:17.120 manufactured exports, in particular, is because China has been dumping 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:20.440 them around the world below the cost of production and 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:22.840 it's been a killer for jobs both in the United 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:25.880 States historically in the last several decades, but also around 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:29.200 the world. So I have a degree of sympathy for 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:32.680 the situation that President Trump and his team inherited, which 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:35.800 was a situation that we left when I left in 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.000 mid January as ambassador to China. The Chinese are trying 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:42.000 to act now is that they're the innocent party, that 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:45.680 they're the victim of this trade war by President Trump, 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:48.120 and that they're the responsible party, when in. 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:49.480 Fact the reality is quite different. 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:52.639 Having said that, these are going to be very very 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:56.520 difficult negotiations over the next ninety days, I think in 0:02:56.560 --> 0:03:01.200 the end, self interest and logic will prevent both sides 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:05.280 need an agreement. China's our third largest trade partner. About 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:09.800 a million American jobs depend on trade with China. Manufacturing 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:12.880 jobs in China depend on trade with the United States. 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:17.239 So neither country can afford to sunder the economic ties 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.320 and the millions of interactions that our private sector has 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.079 had with the Chinese economy over the last forty years. 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:25.120 And I think in the end there will be a 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.160 trade agreement, but getting there, I think is going to 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:29.560 be extraordinarily difficult. 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:32.639 During your tenure, you were trying to, if I may, 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:37.120 rehabilitate a relationship that had worsened during the first Trump administration, 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:42.960 develop conduits for communication, re establish economic and security ties. 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:45.760 When you left that post, could you've envision this turning 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:47.200 out the way that it has in terms of how 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.480 the rhetoric has been ratcheted up, the tariffs have been 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:51.840 put in place. Is it the worst case that you 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:52.800 envisioned or worse yet? 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:56.400 Still, I certainly did not anticipate one hundred and forty 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.320 five percent American terrorists on China or one hundred and 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:02.720 twenty five percent on Chinese tariffs on American goods, and 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:06.000 the trade war that has resulted effectively led to a 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:09.840 trade embargo as of the past week, when no ships 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:13.360 were sailing with goods back and forth, when manufacturers couldn't 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:16.880 export to each other's countries, and you see the significant 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:21.200 shortage of goods that traditionally are important to both economies. 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:23.719 So I didn't expect that to happen at all. We're 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:26.760 the two largest global economies, so we have a profound 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.279 impact on the health of global economy. But we also 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:32.719 need the global economy to be functioning in a rational 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.080 and stable way, and I think you know, we're not 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:37.599 anywhere close to being out of the woods. If the 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:40.640 levels now are set at thirty percent tariffs on the 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:44.839 American side imposed on China and ten percent by China 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:47.880 imposed on the United States, those are historically high levels, 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:50.200 and a lot of trade will not be able to 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.440 take place. It just simply won't be economical. 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:56.560 A minute ago, you spoke about how China is portraying 0:04:57.279 --> 0:04:59.040 not just the talks, but the way that this trade 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:02.039 war is unfolded. How effective you think that is. Do 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:03.840 they walk away from this feeling like they have the 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:05.560 upper hand. Do you think the world views them as 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:07.640 having the upper hand in these negotiations. 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:10.839 Well, the Chinese press, the nationalist press, and to an extent, 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:14.120 the government of China have been saying that they held out, 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:17.960 that they stood strong, and that they faced up to 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.880 the American tariff threats and they did not blink. And 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:25.160 they've been trumpeting that line in the global South. President 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:29.679 she just hosted most of the major leaders from South 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:32.839 America at a major summit he's been making. He made 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:35.880 a trip in Southeast Asia to the Asian country. So 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.560 they clearly are signaling to the United States. You're not 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:42.520 going to bully us. We have other options. You've seen 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:46.000 a big increase in Chinese manufactured exports to their neighbors. 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.080 So yes, the government of China is trying to portray 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:53.240 itself as the steady, solid country that stood up to 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:56.400 the United States. I think that China needs a deal too. 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.839 There's a reason why the Chinese met with Secretary of Vessant. 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:05.000 The economy is slowing down. They're facing lower GDP growth 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:07.039 for the next five to ten years. They have a 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:11.720 property crisis that continues to linger. They have a consumption problem. 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:15.159 The Chinese people are not consuming in a rational way, 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:18.000 sitting on their money because of the uncertainty of the 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:21.640 investment environment in China itself. They have strength in the 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.880 Chinese economy, enormous strengths, but they also have these weaknesses. 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:29.800 China could not afford a sustained trade war with the 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:32.279 United States. That's why they were at the table, and 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:34.600 that's why they've agreed to a deal in ninety days. 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:37.960 What did you learn being there about that country's capacity 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:40.480 to whether something like this. So you're saying they couldn't 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:43.880 sustain it long term, but give us some insight into 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:46.920 how they had been preparing for a moment like this 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:49.440 one where there would be this kind of geopolitical test. 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:53.480 I was in China, of course, during the presidential election, 0:06:53.600 --> 0:06:56.160 our presidential election of November twenty twenty four, and as 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:58.840 soon as President Trump was declared the winner in that 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:01.760 election and prepared to office, the Chinese began to prepare 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:04.200 for a trade war. They saw it coming. They had 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:08.400 listened to Canadate Trump. They've did a lot of remobilization 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:11.320 of their supply chain to try to stock up on 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:15.760 minerals and on technologies that were important to them, and 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:20.720 they expected this. They also have an authoritarian system of government, 0:07:21.160 --> 0:07:23.760 and so it's a one man rule, and President Hijinping 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:27.800 whatever he says goes. He prepared the Chinese people for 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:30.600 a long struggle with the United States. And you know, 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:35.400 China is like the United States. People are patriotic about 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:39.800 their country. I would say there's a highly nationalist element 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:43.640 in Chinese social media, and there are hundreds of millions 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:47.440 of Chinese involved in Chinese social media. So this was 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:49.880 a moment where the leadership said, we have to stand 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:51.320 strong and defend our country. 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:52.560 And they think they've done that. 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:56.680 After the break Nick Burns weighs in on the job, 0:07:56.720 --> 0:08:00.000 facing his successor and the effects of the Trump administrations 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:12.440 cuts to the federal government. The US is going to 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:14.840 have a new ambassador in Beijing soon, David Perdue has 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:15.720 been confirmed. 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:16.720 I wonder if. 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.440 You've spoken with him, exchanged messages with him, and what 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.680 counsel you would give him about the role itself and 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:24.040 the ways in which you've found you can be the 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:24.880 most successful. 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:25.120 Well. 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:28.200 I have spoken with him, and I wish him the 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:31.160 best of success, because we have so much writing on 0:08:31.200 --> 0:08:34.400 this policy with China that we've got to be successful. 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.520 I think he's very well placed to be ambassador. He 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.600 worked in business in Hong Kong and Singapore. He's been 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:42.840 to China. As a member of the Senate, he was 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:45.959 on Foreign Relations and Armed Services Committees, which are the 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:49.920 two relevant committees, two of them for China, and has 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:51.559 a clear sense of what he wants to do. 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:52.840 It's a tough job. 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:55.760 I found out, it's not for the feint of heart. 0:08:56.200 --> 0:09:00.760 We have with China the most competitive relationship of any 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:04.000 country in the world. China is our leading competitor for 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:07.679 military influence and military power in the Indo Pacific, our 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:12.680 leading competitor on the major technologies AI, biotech, quantum computing 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:15.559 that will form the basis of the future of the 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:19.080 global economy. Our third largest trade partner with which we 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:23.480 have a very problematic trade and teriff relationship. And obviously, 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:25.400 and maybe this is the most important part of it, 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:29.000 we believe in human freedom and human rights, and the 0:09:29.080 --> 0:09:32.520 Chinese government does not practice that. There are major violators 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:34.640 of the human rights of their own people. But at 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:38.240 the same time, and this makes it so complicated, David, 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:42.560 is that China's our largest and strongest competitor, but there 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:44.680 are certain issues where China is one of our most 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:48.360 important partners. We're the two stewards of the global economy. 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:50.920 We're seeing that play out right now in the teriff issue. 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:54.280 On climate change. We're the two leading emitters of carbon 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:58.400 and so President Biden felt very important to work with China. 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:00.640 If we want to do anything about fen, we've got 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.960 to work with China to make that happen. So I 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:07.000 always thought it was it wasn't a fifty to fifty balance. 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:09.360 I actually thought I spent about eighty percent of my 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:13.360 time on the competitive edge with China, about twenty percent 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:14.920 on cooperative matters. 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:17.240 And that I thought was the right ratio. 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:20.520 But that makes for a very complicated relationship where you've 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:25.400 got to both defend and push and resist on one hand, 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:27.520 and then you've got to stretch out your hand to 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:30.200 work with them and shake their hand on the other. 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:35.000 That's the reality of being the American ambassador to China. 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:36.720 Before I kind of pull back and ask you some 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:40.280 broader questions, I wonder how you felt about the relationship 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:42.120 between the US and China when you left. 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:46.480 Well, I arrived in China, was sworn in in twenty 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:51.360 twenty one, and arrived a couple months later hawkish about 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:54.400 the relationship on national security grounds, because China is this 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:59.360 very serious competitor impinging on a lot of American interests 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:02.040 in the end opisis And I think I left China 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:03.360 more hawkish. 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:03.600 Yeah. 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:06.720 I saw the reality of the relationship and the cynical 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:10.840 nature of the government of China, and of the duplicity 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:14.640 on some issues of the government of China, the fact 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.400 that we would make an agreement and then it wasn't honored. 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:20.199 So I think this is a long term structural rivalry. 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:22.560 We're competing for global power. 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:24.400 I don't think that will change. 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:27.720 No, matter who's president, and so we've got to steal 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:31.720 ourselves for the next decade or two to a historic 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:36.319 competition with China, and China right now is stronger than 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:38.880 any adversary of the United States has ever faced in 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:41.360 the history of the United States, going back to the 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:46.360 Revolutionary War, including the First and Second World Wars, including. 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:46.640 The Cold War. 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:50.040 The Soviet Union and its heyday was not as strong 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:53.920 as China is today. And so we've got to face 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:57.600 that competition. But here's the catch. We've got to do 0:11:57.679 --> 0:11:59.800 it in such a way that we don't end up 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.880 in a war, because a war would be catastrophic. But 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:06.040 to be engaged with the Chinese leadership, to talk to them, 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:10.199 as Secretary Vescent did this past week on the teriff issue, 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:13.360 but on a thousand other fronts. Be engaging them and 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.960 talking to them so you can compete. We can cooperate 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.720 where we can, but we avoid a conflict, which in 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:24.000 the future would be an absolute catastrophe. That makes for 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:26.760 a very difficult and complex job. 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:30.160 There seems to be a message from this administration Washington 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:34.760 that there can be bombasted and heated rhetoric, radically increased tariffs, 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:36.800 but then you can flip the switch back and things 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.760 can go back to normal. And drawing on your experience 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:42.199 as a diplomat for many decades, do you think that 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.200 that's folly or that that's accurate. 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:47.160 I think we're at a moment of great transformation in 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:51.960 the global power picture where alliance is shifting very rapidly. 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:56.640 You see that China and Russia, in Iran and North 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:59.960 Korea and Venezuela and Nicaragua are kind of all working together, 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:04.839 the authoritarian dictatorships, and they're working together to try to 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:07.680 cut down the power of the United States, reduce it 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:11.400 in the world, and of our democratic allies. And I 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.840 always felt, working for President Biden, that one of our 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:19.360 strongest suits is that we have reinforced our alliances despite 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:21.320 the fact that we are still the strongest power in 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:23.760 the world. You do need friends and allies in the world, 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:26.440 and I do think that's the greatest mistake that President 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:30.359 Trump has made in his first four months in office. 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:35.040 If Donald Trump had faced China down, but had not 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:40.959 placed high tariffs on Japan, South Korea, the European Union, Canada, 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.680 and Mexico, all those countries would have been on our 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:48.200 side of the table. Have the same trade and tariff 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:51.400 problems with China that we do, but they weren't interested 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.480 in doing that once they were placed under the same 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:57.720 tariff regime that China was placed under. And so I 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:01.719 fear that the administration really has a blind spot. They 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:03.959 think the United States can go it alone in the world. 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:04.520 We can't. 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:08.160 And so that's an own goal by the Trump administration. 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:10.600 It's one that they've got to reverse if they hope 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:11.320 to be effective. 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.920 Can you recognize the State Department today? You can spend 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:18.120 forty five years in government service, given the cuts that 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:21.280 have taken place, the priorities of it, How different is 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:23.000 it from the place that you first went to forty 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:23.720 five years ago. 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:25.120 David, I answer it this way. 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:27.720 I spent a lifetime in government at the State Department 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:31.680 in White House, serving in Washington and overseas. Every government 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:35.400 agency can be subject and should be subject to reform. 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:40.520 But taking a sledgehammer to USAID and firing eight thousand 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.880 people in one week, without a thought, without a plan, 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.880 without actually knowing what you're tearing down, that was a 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:53.920 huge mistake. Treating nonpartisan civil servants, military officers, foreign service 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:57.880 officers as if they are disloyal because they work for 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:01.240 President Biden. Well, they also work for President Bush. They've 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:04.240 worked people like me work for both parties. We take 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:07.200 an oath to the Constitution to be nonpartisan, but the 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:12.640 Trump administration has not appointed a single foreign service professional 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:16.520 ambassador since it took office. They've appointed lots of political appointees, 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:19.520 but nobody from the ranks of our serving career diplomats. 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:23.680 Seventeen of our deputy chiefs of mission are number two 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:27.920 officials in embassies who were assigned to these jobs and 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:30.960 getting ready to go have been told they're not going. 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:33.960 And many of them, if not all, of that group, 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:38.520 are women and people of color. And so there is 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:41.960 a crisis in our civil service right now. And if 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:44.280 these cuts continue the way they are, and if the 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:48.360 denigration of our civil servants continue, you're losing a great 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:50.600 group of people who just want to serve the country 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:52.400 and want to do it in a non partisan way, 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:56.280 and they will be nonpartisan, that is the Foreign Service 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.960 and US government way. And I think the Trump administration 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.960 and has been extraordinarily destructive of this tradition we've had 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:06.120 in this country now for about one hundred and thirty 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:09.840 years of a professional civil service, not a political spoils 0:16:09.880 --> 0:16:13.320 system what we had in the nineteenth century, but professional 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:15.800 civil service that would serve the country and serve any 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:19.080 president at the American people elected. That's what's at stake, 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:22.160 And I think when the pendulum does swing back at 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:26.239 some point, we're going to have to recreate USAID, recreate 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:30.040 the Voice of America, recreate Radio Free Asia. These are 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.760 journalists who we employ to tell the story of the 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.960 United States, in the case of China, to several hundred 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:42.680 million Chinese listeners of VOA and Radio Free Asia. So 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:47.400 enormous damage has been done by this very cynical effort. 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:52.720 Doge to tear down all these institutions and not replace 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:54.640 them with anything of value. 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.200 But you're confident that that force of gravity will swing 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:00.000 the pendulum back, that we will be able to do that. 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:01.040 I don't recreate these I. 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.840 Don't think anybody can predict when reason will prevail again 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.280 and logic will prevail and sanity. But it has to 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:11.040 because I think future administrations, future presidents will look around 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:14.120 at their government and say, where are my AID workers? 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:18.119 How do we run vaccine programs, global health programs, literacy 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:21.080 programs that we ought to be doing around the world 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:24.840 Because if Americans are generous people, where are my diplomats? 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:27.879 Why do I not have any diplomats with thirty or 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:31.600 forty years of experience? Well, they were all fired, summarily 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:35.320 kicked out in the first couple of weeks and months 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.520 of the Trump administration. It's a true national crisis. 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:39.640 I'd like to. 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:43.640 Close by asking you what you're telling students here who 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.199 are here at the Kennedy School here at Harvard to 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:49.680 learn from your experience, to learn an art of diplomacy 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:53.200 that has been practiced and perfected for many decades. 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:56.200 What do you tell them? Hang on, hang on to 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:56.960 your ideals. 0:17:57.440 --> 0:17:59.680 It's a good thing to want to spend your life 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:02.560 survey the United States of America, your country. 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:03.280 It's a good thing. 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:05.240 You want to be in the public square what Teddy 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:10.200 Roosevelt called the arena of public service. Study hard, and 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:13.800 don't leave that dream behind of public service. Because what 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:16.920 a tragedy would be for our country if young people 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:18.639 in this country felt, well, I can't serve in the 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:22.240 federal government because I'm not welcome as a career official 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:26.880 in the federal government. We need non partisan americans out 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:31.200 there representing us without any regard to party allegiance. That's 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:34.680 an enormous asset, and if we let it wither away, 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.080 and this administration is doing that, it's going to do 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:38.600 enormous damage to our country. 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:45.600 This is The Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm David Goura. 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:48.800 This episode is produced by our senior producer Naomi Shaven, 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:49.920 with help from Amber A. 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:50.359 Lee. 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.920 It was edited by Patty Hirsh, Tracy Samuelson, Molly Smith, 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:57.280 John Low, and Ramsey Alraccabe. It was fact checked by 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.479 Rachel Lewis Chrisky and mixed and sound designed by Segura. 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:04.640 Our senior editor is Elizabeth Ponso, Our deputy executive producer 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:08.120 is Julia Weaver. Our executive producer is Nicole Beamster. Board 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.439 Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts. If you liked 0:19:11.480 --> 0:19:13.960 this episode, make sure to subscribe and review The Big 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:16.640 Take wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps people find 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:22.720 the show. Thanks for listening. We'll be back on Monday.