1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney, along 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: with my co host of Bonnie Quinn. Every business day 3 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: we bring you interviews from CEO, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, 4 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: along with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets 5 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: Podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts, 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,440 Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com. Well, Vonnie is more and 7 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:25,119 Speaker 1: more vaccines get into the system, into people's arms. The 8 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: question and discussions is starting to build. When will people 9 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: go back to work? Do they want to go back 10 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: to work? Will they feel comfortable going back to work? 11 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: With Rebecca Ray, executive vice president of Human Capital for 12 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: the conference Born Board, joins us here. Uh, you know, 13 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: Rebecca talked to us about this survey that you guys 14 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: did in talking to workers and how they feel about 15 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: going back to work eventually, what did you learn? All right? Well, 16 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: good morning, um. You know this is part of our 17 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: continuing series. We reached out a couple of times last 18 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: fall and it was interesting to see what we thought 19 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: might be some differences given the advent of the vaccine 20 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: and set aside for a moment some of the hiccups 21 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,479 Speaker 1: and distribution, but at least it's available and starting to 22 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: be distributed. And what we found was that about seventy 23 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: of the plus respondents said they planned to take it, 24 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: but there's a good fifth of those respondents who said 25 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: they were still not decided. So it's it's not quite 26 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: the panacea I think that we thought it might have been, 27 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: especially when you think about the fact that of the 28 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: respondents said that their companies had not communicated a vaccination policy, 29 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: and just about the same number said that they were 30 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: their plans to reopen the workplace, we're still unclear. And 31 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: you know, this is setting aside those who never closed, 32 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: and but just those who had closed are thinking about reopening. 33 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: So what about those people who were asked if they 34 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: would go back if it was made mandatory before they 35 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: entered their office buildings that they had to have the vaccine. 36 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: Do the answers changed in that scenario or that ga 37 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: not really, because what we learned is that of those 38 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: who didn't know what their companies were going to share 39 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: as a as a policy, only one percent said that 40 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: they were man mandating it for for all workers, or 41 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: only about one percent, so that it would be mandated 42 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: for some workers. So it's you know, a very very 43 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: small percentage who are mandating it um, and so most 44 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: companies have taken the route of, if they're saying anything 45 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: at all, of not mandating but strongly encouraging there's about 46 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: What was surprising to us is that a lot of 47 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: people responded um assume. Not many responded that they were 48 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,119 Speaker 1: given any kind of incentives. We thought that perhaps more 49 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: companies would be offering paid time off. We've seen a 50 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: few of those things in the headlines, or some other 51 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: kind of incentive to get the vaccine, but that's not 52 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: what this survey found. And Rebecca, I know some people 53 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: that are express reloked at to getting the vaccines. For 54 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 1: some people that just maybe anti actors. For others, there 55 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: may be some social reasons. What are some of the 56 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: key reasons that you found about, you know, maybe some 57 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: commonalities and folks that really don't intend to take the vaccine. Sure, 58 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: I think there are still some lingering concerns about the 59 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: efficacy of the vaccine itself. Um. There are also some 60 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: people who indicated they were concerned about the side effects 61 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 1: of the vaccine itself, and they were also a little 62 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: concerned that once the vaccine had been administered, how long 63 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 1: that was that protection was in place and how often 64 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: they would need to go through this process. And you know, 65 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: one of the things we learned earlier on is that 66 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: satisfied the vaccine or not, many people are very concerned 67 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 1: about contracting it, especially women who feel that they may 68 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: indeed bring it home to those for whom they care. 69 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: And you know, we can talk about whether this is 70 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: right or wrong, but you know, elder care and child 71 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: care still falls disproportionately on the shoulders of women. But 72 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: something else we learned, and it's been consistent in these 73 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: three surveys, is that people don't necessarily have a high 74 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: level of confidence that their colleagues are going to follow 75 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: the safety protocols that the companies you know, perhaps thought 76 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: carefully about and trying to implement. Yeah, that's really interesting, 77 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: isn't it. And you can't exactly ask straight out, and 78 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: you can sort of set your own mandates. I mean, 79 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: I guess companies have been very understanding so far, and 80 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: they've obviously managed to make work from home something that 81 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 1: can be done. Will there come a time, though, Rebecca, 82 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: when they say, look, this is not on anymore. I mean, 83 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: we have to minimize this. People have to come into 84 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 1: the office. I think that's right. I think there's um 85 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: I think there's less of an appetite for an all 86 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: volunteery return. We're starting to see that in a little 87 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: bit of the shift of the numbers. You know, there's 88 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 1: there's over time, fewer are more are uncomfortable at some level, 89 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: and more are very comfortable. But it's clear that there's 90 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: going to be some hybrid for some time. But I'd 91 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: say companies have started to shift away from let's be 92 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: remote all the time. And we see that from some 93 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: of our other research, particularly our c Suite Challenge reports 94 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: that came out last month. You know, we have a 95 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: lot of people, particularly at the CEO level, who are 96 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: very concerned about maintaining culture. Absolutely, and Rebecca, these surveys 97 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 1: are just phenomenal because it's very hard to actually figure 98 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: out what people are thinking out there, and of course 99 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: thinking changes over time and evolves. Rebecca Ray is executive 100 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 1: vice president of Human Capital at the Conference Board and 101 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: thank you. Bitcoin up more than right now. This after 102 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: Tesla revealed and the filing that it invested one and 103 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: a half billion US dollars in bitcoin and signaled it's 104 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: intent to begin accepting the cryptocurrency as a form of payment. 105 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: Elon Moscow Corpse husband pretty vocal on Twitter about Bitcoin 106 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: and support for it, and also for some other cryptocurrencies 107 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: like dodge Coin. Let's bring in Mike mcglan, who can 108 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: tell us a lot more about this phenomenon and how 109 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 1: it might long at might last. My Thegonn is commodity 110 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: strategist at for Bloomberg Intelligence. So is this run off 111 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: purely based on Elon Mosque support for Bitcoin? Hello, Bonnie. 112 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: I think it's definitely big part of it. It seems 113 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: like this news with Tesla probably flipped the Bitcoin over 114 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: that inflection point and getting above that forty resistance and 115 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: probably moves it up to the next key level about 116 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 1: fifty thousand. Fifty thou significant because it would be a 117 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: market cap around one trillion dollars now right now, Bitcoin 118 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: and Tesla have right about the same market cap, just 119 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: above eight hundred billion dollars. The unique thing is Tesla 120 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: kin issue shares and and bonds and with that money 121 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: by Bitcoin and the the supplies fixed, And that's part 122 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: of the unique thing about Bitcoin. It's becoming an adopted 123 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: reserve asset, and it might fail, but I think most 124 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: entities on the plant. I realized, and well, I better 125 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: have some of it just in case it does succeed 126 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: as a global reserve asset. Hey, Mike, I know you've 127 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: been tracking bitcoin, you know, really since it's inception here 128 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: and been writing some really unsclightfled research on it. What 129 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: is your sense of institutional investor adoption? Is this part 130 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: of the average institutional investors portfolio in terms of asset allocation? Hey, Paul, 131 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: it's getting there, and I think the average institutional investor 132 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: realizes if they don't have part of this, the fear 133 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: of missing out and actually not being part of this 134 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: new reserve asset is greater than it going to zero. 135 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: So look, let's look at the good example. Tesla's the 136 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: biggest name before it was MicroStrategy, And I like to 137 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: use this simple example. My son and I did over 138 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: Super Bowl bet he I want a hundred dollars from him. 139 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: I said, okay, well you put it in bitcoin. So 140 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: when we get to Super Bowl eighty, where do you 141 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: think that will be. I suspect that they're gonna add 142 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: a lot of zeros to that hundred. But if it 143 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: goes to you know, if it fails, who cares. But 144 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: to me, this is what's happening on a global scale, 145 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: and I don't write this stage. I don't know what's 146 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: going to take to stop it except higher prices. So 147 00:07:55,560 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: what happens with these reditory crowds, I mean with think 148 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: it now? Obviously Elon Mosk is also you know, having 149 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: a huge influence over them. Do they just follow the 150 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: crowd when it comes to who the next great hero is? 151 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: I mean PSDH persons who are is also on there 152 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: as you know, as a as a potential target for 153 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 1: these guys, and they love you know, they're not looking 154 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: at people's histories really at all. It seems well for 155 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: the traders, something like a speculative digital asset like we 156 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: started off with dodge coin makes sense. But that's clearly 157 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: that it could easily go to zero and I don't 158 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: think it has much really intrinsic value like bitcoin does. Um. 159 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: So I look at bitcoin is a kind of asset, 160 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 1: it's it's a um it's a collectible and prudent people 161 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: should accumulate it because there's a potential future. There will 162 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: be a major difference between people on it and people don't. 163 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: It could happen, So why take the risk and the 164 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: key area that's really starting to show from is from gold. 165 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: The old time gold. Old allocators who have held it 166 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: for centuries are now realizing that they have to have 167 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: some of that money in bitcoin because if they don't, 168 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: they might miss out in this reserve asset which is 169 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: replacing the old rock. And what's next potential on that 170 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: and that iteration is central banks. So I'm wondering what 171 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: the I mean again, Mike, just uh, you know my 172 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 1: call on bitcoin, this is my personal understanding, is relatively 173 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:24,959 Speaker 1: fixed supply of this commodity and presumably ever increasing demand 174 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,719 Speaker 1: from different uses within society. Therefore, that supply demand is 175 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 1: the bullish call there. What's the what's the risk to 176 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: that simplistic investment outlook for for bitcoin? Hya? I think 177 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: the I think there's two key risks. One, first of all, 178 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: is what happened last year risk a major risk off 179 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: event like we had in Q one last year bitcoin 180 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: drop came back to me, that's a big picture thing 181 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: that will actually help bitcoin. To me. The most significant 182 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: risk I see is some kind of something I can predict, 183 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: some kind of glitchen that technology, some kind of major 184 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: hack um that I don't know how to predict predict, 185 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 1: and some people like Michael Sailor, who are major technology experts, say, well, 186 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: this is unlikely, partly because it's the most it's the 187 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: largest decentralized network in the history of mankind, and it's 188 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: been through so many tests. You know, if it doesn't 189 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 1: kill you, it makes you stronger. And that's a key 190 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: narrative of big coin. It hasn't killed it. It's been 191 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: through major hacks, major issues, and keeps getting stronger. So 192 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: that to me is what's happening. And it's it's it's 193 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,719 Speaker 1: it's mind. There's nodes on a global scale that are 194 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: completely independent. It's no one else's project or liability reality, 195 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: which is a very unique thing in a world going digital. Yeah, absolutely, 196 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: What are the other crypto coins that might make it well? 197 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 1: Ethereum is the number two and it has a lot 198 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: of good oath behind it. I mean it's it's a 199 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:51,079 Speaker 1: central coin for decentralized exchanges, um, decentralized finance, and it's 200 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: a major platform for many many smart contracts and things 201 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: that you can do in the space where you can't 202 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,080 Speaker 1: in in in many other areas. So the thing I 203 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: look about Ethereum is it's not going to be a 204 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: global reserve acid. It's more reflective to me is of 205 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: some of these texts fintech stocks in the stock market, 206 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: and when I get the questions, I get a lot 207 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 1: of it, and you see it today. You don't hear 208 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: about major corporations allocating towards the theorem, or major economics 209 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: departments asking me about ethereum. They all ask me about bitcoin. 210 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 1: So but essential I'm looking at the chart of etheroreum. 211 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: It's it's a great chart as well. Um. You know, 212 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 1: that's supply demand dynamic that's arguably underpinning the move up 213 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: in bitcoin. I'm just unsure why there couldn't be more supply, 214 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 1: why there couldn't be a a perfect replacement for bitcoin 215 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: in the marketplace. There's eight thousand wannabest Paul, that's the 216 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:45,599 Speaker 1: key thing about it, and a year ago there was 217 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: maybe three thousand. So ease of entry, there's anybody can 218 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: launch a coin. That's a problem for the wide space. 219 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: But if you have an index track in its space, 220 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: index is going to have a survivor bias, which is 221 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: why I like the Bloomberg galaxy of crypto inext. For instance, 222 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: it recently kicked out Ripple because of the sec charges. 223 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: So that is a problem in the broad space. But 224 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: once you're adopted like gold and there's nothing else like it, 225 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: that's the key thing about Bitcoin. It's been adopted. It's 226 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: already won that race. Some kind of major hack is 227 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: the main issue, but it's already one, the race of 228 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: robustness and adoption. Got to ask you a quick question 229 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: about oil because we're seeing w t I at already 230 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: fifty eight dollars of barrel today. It's been so long 231 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: since we're even so oil above fifty and suddenly we're 232 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: very clearly approaching sixty. What absolutely is going on here? 233 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:37,840 Speaker 1: It needs a combination of higher stock market reduced sustained 234 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: discipline from OPEQ that we have to have production costs 235 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: to decline um and demand to pick up. So to me, 236 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: oil is really pushing on a string here. For instance, 237 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 1: average production costs for U shales dropped alow forty dollars 238 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: a barrel. That's not good for from higher prices to sustain. Adition, 239 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: that correlation with oil and crude oil fossil fuels to 240 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: the stock markets the highest ever we go back to sea. 241 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: We measure on a twenty four month basis, I view, 242 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: oil at fifty seven is very risky. Fifty seven is 243 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: the average price from two thousand nineteen, before the before 244 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: the um pandemic, so I view this level is a 245 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: very high risk level of markets should decline from. Hey, Mike, 246 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. We always appreciate getting 247 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: your thoughts on commodities, particularly bitcoin. But what a big 248 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: move we're seeing here as Elon musk Uh, you know, 249 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: talks about bitcoin and starts actually buying it. Mike McLellan, 250 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:34,559 Speaker 1: commodity strategist for Bloomberg Intelligence. Another green day on the screen, 251 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: this time small cap stocks really leading the way up 252 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: one point seven five percent. Talking a little bit about 253 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: that rotation trade that has been so successful for so 254 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: many investors since let's call it August September. Kind of 255 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: rotating perhaps out of some of those big growth names 256 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: that have worked so well for many investors over the 257 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 1: years into some more cyclical, maybe even some smaller cat names. 258 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 1: That seems to be the trade working today. David Cat's, 259 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: chief investment officer from Matrix Asset Virsors join. It's just 260 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: Matrix has about eight hundred and fourteen million dollars in 261 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: assets under management. David, thanks so much for joining us here. 262 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: I'd love to get your thoughts on kind of where 263 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: you guys are seeing value in the market. Opportunities in 264 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: the market. Is it with those traditional big cap or 265 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: top line growth stories that we've grown so accustomed to, 266 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: or have you actually been rotating into some of those 267 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: more cyclical names the latter. We think that the best 268 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: opportunities in the market today are in a number of 269 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: areas um that would typically fall into value areas, things 270 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: like uh. The financials are looking particularly attractive. Healthcare stocks 271 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: are looking very attractive. We think telecom utilities, So if 272 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: you look at those companies, a lot of them were 273 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: selling at twelve times to fourteen times earnings. If you 274 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: look at the market overall, it's at about twenty times earnings. 275 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 1: And if you look at those growth stocks, the technology 276 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: growth stocks that everybody is so excited about, many of 277 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: them are thirty times earnings. UH, and there are even 278 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: a number of companies at fifty to a hundred times earnings. 279 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 1: So we think that's an odd market. There are lots 280 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: of areas that are very expensive that we worry about, 281 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: and there are lots of areas that we think represent 282 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: great opportunity. Uh, and we do think the market is 283 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: going to go through a rotation this year from the 284 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: expensive to the cheap. Uh. You're coming out of a recession, 285 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: and historically when you come out of recessions, value does 286 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: very well. So there in lies the opportunity. We think. 287 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: If you're looking in the rear view mirror, um, you know, 288 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: you're you're buying the things that did great last year. 289 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: We don't think it's going to be a repeat in 290 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: two thousand and twenty one. David, how concerned are you 291 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: that the rehditor crowd might target one of the stocks 292 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: that you proceed to be value stalks, because after all, 293 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: they said game Stoff was a value stalk and that's 294 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: why they were investing. But we all know that it 295 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: was you know, only part of the explanation. So we 296 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: are a long only manager and we're trying to buy 297 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: companies with really strong fundamentals that sell at ten twelve 298 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: times earnings, So that really doesn't fall into the reddit 299 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: area that companies are targeted. You know, game stock might 300 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: have been uh perceived as value if you were willing 301 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 1: to say that they're going to fix their business. When 302 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: we looked at game stock, Um, you know, it was 303 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: a company whose time has come and gone. We don't 304 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: think there is viable in the future. So it was 305 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: something that we worry about on a valuation basis. But 306 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: when Reddit has gotten involved, valuation doesn't matter on you know, 307 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: in terms of a short squeeze on a long only portfolio. 308 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: If you're buying a company that's growing earnings at twelve 309 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: times earnings, you know, if Reddick gets behind it, you know, 310 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: we get our valuation much quicker. But we don't think 311 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: they would try to short valid companies. Yea, what do 312 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: you guys think of bank stocks right here? They have 313 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: had to run off the bottom, but still a lot 314 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: of concern out there given how low interest rates are. Well, 315 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: there are about six or seven variables with bank stocks, 316 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: and and five of them are very very good. So 317 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: short term rates a zero not good for bank Uh. 318 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: The yield curve steepening and it has been in a 319 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: very significant way in the last month and a half, 320 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: is a very significant positive for banks. So the tenure 321 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: was at point six now it's at one point one six. 322 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: That's a good thing. The regulatory environment with johnet Yellen 323 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: at the head of the Treasury is UH. Positive. The 324 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: fact that the Fed is allowing them to buy back 325 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: stock again and ultimately is going to allow them to 326 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: raise their dividends in two thousand twenty one a positive. 327 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: The new relief package really allows consumers and small businesses 328 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: to bridge the current recession into better times this summer. 329 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: So all those things are really good. Uh. Bank stocks 330 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: have started to perk up, but they've led the market 331 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: in a huge way in the last year. We think 332 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: it's a great catch up trade. We think that's going 333 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: to be a leader ship group this year. So companies 334 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: like US BANCORPS, JP, Morgan Truest all position to be 335 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: a lot higher. Uh. And it's an area where you're 336 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 1: not taking on your traditional bank risk at the end 337 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: of a recession, because we do see the credit trends 338 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: are very good. Dave, are you frustrated at Beatrix? I 339 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: feel like it's been almost values time for so long, 340 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: and yet each time it's a head fake. I mean, 341 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,479 Speaker 1: are you frustrated with Coca Cola? Are you frustrated with Verizon? 342 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: Are you frustrated with Kellogg? Well, we think value has 343 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 1: definitely struggled, and as you said, the last decade value 344 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: has um land growth and last year some areas of 345 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: value started to come back in the fourth quarter, but 346 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: the dividend players have not yet. Uh. As you know, 347 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: I've been doing this for thirty five plus years and 348 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: we've gone through lots and lots of cycles, and a 349 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: lot of what's going on now feels very much like 350 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: the end of ninet nine and subsequently what happened. It 351 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: was a great period for value and growth stocks that 352 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: we're really good businesses didn't do a lot in terms 353 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: of investment returns for a long time. So having gone 354 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: through this before, we think we know how this ends. 355 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: So another six months. Well, because I remember, we think 356 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: it was just it was Julian Robinson at out right 357 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 1: before value hit right, it was it was it was 358 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: like exactly the worst timing in the world. Yeah, um so, 359 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 1: And and Coca Cola is an interesting thing. Coca Cola 360 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: is going to be a reopening. Play of their business 361 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: comes from venues like sporting events, uh, concerts, restaurants. So 362 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: we think that even though it's value and it's paying 363 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: a great dividend, that as soon as people perceive the 364 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 1: economy opening up this summer, UH, that stock should have 365 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: a really good run up, Kelly, I think you had 366 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: mentioned been frustrating because their business has been doing very well. 367 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: Earnings are good, very good, cash flow, stock hasn't done anything. 368 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 1: We think they're going to get a nice boost when 369 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: people focus on that they the largest fake meat manufacturer 370 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 1: in the world. Um so competitive, impossible burger. David, it 371 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: is always great to speak with you and thank you 372 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 1: for your thoughts on value on Reddit and much much more. Today. 373 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: David Katz's chief investment officer at Matrix Asset Advisors and 374 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 1: we always look forward to speaking with him. Renaissance Technologies, 375 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've heard of them. They've been around for 376 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: forty years. Run by Jim Simons, a former colde breaker 377 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 1: for the n S. A Well, it's now the world's 378 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 1: largest quantitative hedge fund, but in fact it's getting less 379 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: large clients, pulling five billion dollars since December one. Emma 380 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: Parmer has the story and can explain to us what's 381 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: behind these redemptions. Emma, Why are people pulling money all 382 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: of a sudden from Renaissance. Yes, so Manaissance, as you 383 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: mentioned this, you know, the biggest quant hedge funds and 384 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 1: they're very renowned in the instruy. They were a pioneer 385 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: essentially of quantitative and investing and have had up until 386 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: recently a very strong streak of performance. But twenty twenty 387 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: really hurt Renaissances, public hedge funds, UM and many other 388 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: quantitative funds which really struggled to produced returns. Manisances funds 389 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: went down between nine and thirty two percent, which are 390 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: pretty extreme losses for investors in those that's part of 391 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: you know, that's that's a large reason as to why 392 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: we're seeing these kinds of redemption. So him of these 393 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 1: quantitative funds, and you point out your piece, it's not 394 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: just Renaissance, it's too Sigma and others as well. What 395 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: didn't what did not work with their strategies was a 396 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: volatility that we saw in some of these um call 397 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 1: it Reddit names, just too much. So here's the thing 398 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: with quantitative strategies is they used historical data. They scour 399 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: through the data that goes back um decades and they 400 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: look for signals and patterns that might explain what's happening now. 401 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: And in the year like twenty when we haven't seen 402 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: a pandemic in over a century, markets don't seem to 403 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: be acting in the ways that we typically with things 404 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: that they do. It really slows these computer models, these 405 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 1: algorithms at a whack and nothing, no historical data really 406 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: can prepare them for what, um, you know what the 407 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: trading environment is like. And that's why last year really 408 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: saw the human one funds do very well and the 409 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 1: quantitative strategies struggle extremely. It's really amazing because you would 410 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: imagine that they'd be given a few months or you 411 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: know that this money would be longer term money. Why 412 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: our investor is able to pull this kind of money 413 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: at such short notice? Who are these investors that are 414 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: doing that? So the way the redemption terms work as 415 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: that assance is you, um, you need to give one 416 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: month to notice for the redemptions that you'd like to 417 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 1: speak and then you get that money back a month later. 418 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: So you'll get it back within two months of the 419 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: date that you say you want is back. Um. We 420 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: don't know who precisely, uh, these investors are that are 421 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: asking for money, but we do know that five billion 422 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 1: across three months or you know, speak with simple first 423 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: some of these redemptions are handing through the end of 424 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: sebil um, but five billion dollars is pretty substantial even 425 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 1: for a sixty billion dollar fund so I firm, which 426 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: is still a giant. UM they will continue to be 427 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: a giant even after these redemptions. UM. But if so, 428 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: you know, a pretty significant and chunk of money to 429 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: be lost so quickly too, SOMMA. We saw, I guess 430 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 1: a week or two ago Steve Cohen at point seventy 431 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 1: two opened up his fund for the first time in 432 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: a long time to new capital. Here what's the filling 433 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: within the hedge fund industry is a look back on 434 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: and all the volatility, whether it was pandemic, whether it 435 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: was the Reddit trading has have the hedge funds taken 436 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: a kind of a you know, kind of a hit 437 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: to the reputation at all, Well, it depends on the strategy, 438 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: because actually last year was a very good strategy, very 439 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 1: good year performance wise for a lot of the big 440 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: name human run funds. You saw twenty sometimes even more 441 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: performance numbers, higher performance numbers last year as human run 442 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: funds were able to really navigate the space. UM, you 443 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 1: saw that steady valley from April onwards. UM. So if 444 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: you have positioned well in March, and if you were 445 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: positioned well following March, then you actually did um pretty 446 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: incredibly as as a number of funds did. Now, you know, 447 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 1: as we talked about the computer runch strategies really didn't 448 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,719 Speaker 1: do as well. UM And so you really do see 449 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: a bit of a stark divide between the strategies and 450 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: between who performed and who didn't. Do you have any idea, 451 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: don't you know? What you're looking at? What the responses 452 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 1: are from these quant funds. If some of this money 453 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: wants to go back in pretty soon, if we start 454 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: seeing a turnaround and a better, improved even performance from 455 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 1: these funds, will they take that money back? You think, Hima? Um, 456 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: I think it's hard to say. Probably, UM. I would 457 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: suppose that UM that funds, you know, would be happy 458 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,479 Speaker 1: to to take money back if they have lost UM. 459 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: You know, we don't entirely know. We do know that 460 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: Manissans did tell their investors last year that they were 461 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: um underheaged going into March Just's collapse and then overheedged 462 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: when the market valued, so they basically lost on both ends. 463 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: UM And that's kind of, you know, explained a little 464 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: bit of why their performance didn't do so well. They 465 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: were just poorly positioned in both regards missing uh, the 466 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: opportunity of the dip and then you know, being unprepared 467 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: and advanced of it. So him, as we see some 468 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: funds come out, maybe some of the quant strategies, do 469 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: we know where the money is being redeployed? We don't 470 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: have any clarity on where the money is being redeployed. 471 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: Hedge funds are you know, incredibly secretive. UM. They don't 472 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: have to reveal much of their positioning except when thirteen aps, 473 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: and even then that's you know, ninety days old UM. 474 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: And then at a suns UH in particular, they have 475 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 1: a fund that's closed to UM to outside investors. That's 476 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: called Medallion, and that is an extremely secretive UM, a 477 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: secretive vehicle pool of money. So UM, we don't have 478 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: that kind of clarity. Himma, thank you so much for 479 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: joining us. Fascinating story here him A Parmer. She's hedge 480 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: fund reporter for Bloomberg News. Thanks for listening to Bloomberg 481 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: Markets podcast. You can subscribe and listen to interviews at 482 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast platform you prefer. I'm Bonnie Quinn, 483 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at Bonnie Quinn, and I'm Paul Sweeney. 484 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at pt Sweeney. Before the podcast, you 485 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: can always catch us worldwide at Bloomberg Radio