1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline 3 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: and I'm Kristin, and we'd like to welcome you to 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: Weird Parental Psychology Week. Here on the podcast. Today we're 5 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: talking about Mama's Boys, and Kristen and I learned in 6 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: reading all of these sources reading up on this topic 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: that you know there there is a social stigma against 8 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: Mama's Boys, but it is so it comes from like 9 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: a really deeply ingrained place that goes way back and 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: have some very questionable dark origins. Yeah, and not to 11 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: jump too far ahead, but the next episode we're going 12 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: to do in Weird Parental Psychology Week will be Daddy's Girls. 13 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:53,319 Speaker 1: And pay attention in this episode because there will be 14 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: some similar psychoanalytic threads that run throughout both episodes. So, 15 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:05,559 Speaker 1: when it comes to the cultural history of Mama's Boys, 16 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,479 Speaker 1: when we started getting and by we I mean socially 17 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: began growing more mistrusting perhaps of this mother son relationship. 18 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: It seems to really ramp up in the post World 19 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: War two era with all of these changing ideas about masculinity, 20 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,279 Speaker 1: the fear of men becoming feminized as they returned to 21 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: the domestic front, and also the evolution of women's roles. 22 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: It's really interesting to to sort of watch the evolution 23 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: of this concept as a negative thing, particularly not not 24 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: as a positive. Yeah, mom is supporting her son, and 25 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: it really stems from a lot of ideas about performing masculinity. Right, 26 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: will this boy grow up to be sort of weak 27 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: or too feminine if he loves his mom too much? 28 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: There were also fears about if mom was too distance, 29 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: so it's like there's no winning for mom. There were 30 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: also a lot of fears about if a close relationship 31 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: between a boy and his mother would make him grow 32 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: up to be gay. A lot of uh social fears 33 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: that were circulating around this time. That we're behind this theory, 34 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: And of course we have to mention Freud and the 35 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: Oedipus complex, which of course is based on the Greek 36 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: myth about Oedipus who ends up killing his father to 37 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: marry his mother, which is the fulfillment of his prophecy. 38 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 1: And oh no, and then Freud was like a ha, 39 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: now I have figured out all the all of the things. 40 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: So basically, the Oedipus complex is this idea that boys 41 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: in their early phases, are you know, developed this intense 42 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: love for their mothers are threatened by their fathers, And 43 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: if there is a sister in the house, he'll see 44 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: that she doesn't have a penis, and then he will 45 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: develop castration anxiety because he won't know why she doesn't 46 00:02:57,960 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: have a penis and will assume that it must have 47 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: been cut off. At some points he was like, oh, 48 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: all right, I better get my act together and stop 49 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: falling in love with my mother because my dad is 50 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 1: really the man of the house. And then he grows 51 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: up and I guess um transfers his love on to 52 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: someone else. That's that'll be three thousand dollars, ladies and 53 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: gentlemen for Christian's psychology class that she just gave you. 54 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: And the thing is, we bring up Freud these days. 55 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: It seems like as almost in like a cliche way, 56 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: but Freud Freudian psychology and psychoanalysis sort of had American 57 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: culture in a chokehold in the mid century. I mean, 58 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: we were really basing a lot of how we were 59 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: living our lives and understanding the dynamics of family families 60 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: in our households based on Freud. Yeah, so it's interesting 61 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: how how ingrained this whole concept of mama's boys and 62 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: mother's son relationships was in society, because if you look 63 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: back to nineteen thirty four, Vanity Fair ran an article 64 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: talking about Hitler being a mama's boy. And granted this 65 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: was in ninety four, this way before the war, before 66 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: the US involvement in the war, and before Hitler had 67 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: committed mess genocide. But in the same breath that Vanity 68 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: Fair talks about how Hitler weeps easily, they also talk 69 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: about how he hated his father but loved his mother 70 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: with a fanatic devotion, which is the same language you 71 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: see a lot of psychologists and sociologists around this time 72 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: starting to use regarding mama's boys well, and to drive 73 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: home the point about how culturally ingrained, even in thirty four, 74 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: this idea of the Oedipus complex was just take this 75 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: quote from that article. Undoubtedly Hitler grew up with a 76 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: very strong Oedipus complex. Almost everyone has this to some extent, 77 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: but in Hitler it was more than normally pronounced so right, 78 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: the writer was talking about how Hitler was chained to quote, 79 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 1: chained by an immense bond to the woman who is 80 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: the most important factor in his life and talking about 81 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: how he was driven not only by his yearnings to 82 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: fulfill the great historical mission that his mother basically gave him, 83 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 1: but subconsciously trying to prove to his then deceased father 84 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 1: his right to independent success and power. Oh boy, so 85 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 1: Hitler the ultimate mom's boy, and this podcast all the 86 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 1: parents listening are terrified. Well yeah, but I mean, I 87 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: think it's it's interesting to talk about it from this 88 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: perspective about how an American writer and an American publication 89 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: was talking about this guy in these terms, because I 90 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 1: think it illustrates how from the get go, being a 91 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: mom's boy was a negative. Yeah. And a little bit 92 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: after this, we have the coining of the term mom 93 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: is um, and we learned about this in the book 94 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: Mama's Boy, moms Um and Homophobia and Postwar American Culture 95 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: by role Van been Over Watt in two thousand twelve. 96 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: And and and it was in two that this social commentator 97 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 1: named Philip Wiley writes this book called Generation of Vipers, 98 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: in which he coins the term mom is um in 99 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: a chapter and titled Common Women and Generation of Vipers 100 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: turned out to be this surprisingly successful book and was 101 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: reprinted a bunch of times, and a lot of people 102 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: were reading it, and this particular chapter on women and 103 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: moms got a lot of attention because Wiley in it 104 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: attacks mothers for instilling in their sons a supposed quote 105 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: uncritical tendency toward mother worship, and he blamed technology giving 106 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: women more free time in the home that made essentially 107 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: shifted their focus from you know, taking all day to 108 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: clean and cook and make sure that the house was 109 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: ready for their husband when he came home to ben 110 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: overdote on their children. Right, it's it's it's his language 111 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: is dripping with misogyny. Honestly, ah, he sort of is 112 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: just blaming mothers for societies ills. And this is a snowball. 113 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: This really snowballs over the next couple of years. But 114 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: Wiley talks about how Mom steals from the generation of 115 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: women behind her that part of her boy's personality, which 116 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: should have become the love of a female contemporary, Mom 117 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: transmutes it into sentimentality for herself. And he even coming 118 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: full circle, compares Mom to Hitler, Like, seriously, seriously, people, 119 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: I bet no one knew we would be mentioning Hitler 120 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: so much. And I thought, hey, I didn't realize that either, 121 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: But just the next year in psychiatrist David Levy publishes 122 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: a study in which he catalogs all of the harmful 123 00:07:55,880 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: effects of overprotective mothers, you know, according to him, basically 124 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: everything from poor eyesight from reading too much to disobedience 125 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: and finickiness about food, basically placing any and all anxieties 126 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: about our sons on the mother's shoulders. Yeah, because there 127 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: isn't too much focus at the time on the mother 128 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: daughter relationship, because I mean, you don't really need to 129 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: raise strong daughters who will be independent and go out 130 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: and fend for themselves in the nineteen forties, So it's 131 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: all focused on the sun's And in addition to a 132 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: lot of these texts being you know, dripping with misogyny, 133 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: they're also dripping with homophobia. Because the undercurrent of most 134 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: of this fear of mom is um is that these overprotective, 135 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: you know, overly affectionate mothers are raising these boys who 136 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: will turn out to be gay because they associate men 137 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: being gay with femininity. And what two more terrible things 138 00:08:55,679 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: could there possibly be in American society in n I no, God, 139 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: I just wish all of America were nothing but strong, 140 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: brawny men. I'm sure that would work out really well. Well, Caroline, 141 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: we have so much more fascinating research findings to share 142 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: when we come right back from a quick break. But so, 143 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty six, psychiatrist Edward A. Strecker blamed not 144 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: only mothers. It's not just mom's fault, it's also mom's 145 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: substitutes faults. So he said that there were all of 146 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: these people and institutions in American society that were to 147 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: blame for keeping men quote immature, things like weak fathers, grandmothers, 148 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 1: mothers in law, governesses, nurses, and school teachers, basically other women. Yeah, 149 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: and in a few week, dads, but really just other 150 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: other women. Really women are terrible. And so then the 151 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: structures I found, the structures that he blamed really interesting, 152 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: everything from religious fanaticism to political isolationism, the army itself, 153 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: Nazi Germany, Kristen and Imperial Japan, and on and on 154 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: and on, all of these things that are keeping men 155 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: from realizing their true masculinity. And then in ninety seven 156 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: the following year, sociologist Ferdinand Lundberg and psychologist Marianna Farnum 157 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: ramp things up even more and they argue that women 158 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: were quote one of modern civilization's major unsolved problem, which 159 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: just makes me think about that song from the Sound 160 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: of Music. How do you solve a problem like all 161 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: of women? All of women? Yeah? Yeah, um, but yeah, 162 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 1: they compare. They put women on par like women, all 163 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:50,559 Speaker 1: of women on par with social ills like crime, poverty, 164 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: and epidemic diseases. And they took a nice look back 165 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: and said that, hey, guys, things are really started going 166 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 1: downhill around the Industrial revolution to chnology coming up again technology. 167 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: And they point to good old Mary woolstone Craft because 168 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: they said that it was out of her quote illness 169 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: arose the ideology of feminism. Yes, she the author of 170 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: Vindication of the Rights of women. And so when they 171 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: fast forward to the nineteen forties when they were writing, 172 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 1: they said, the manifestation of all of these womanly induced 173 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: ills his mom, this is mom, just a horrible, horrible 174 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: mom who's vacuum cleaner has really cut down too much 175 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: on cleaning time exactly, because if mom were focused more 176 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: on cleaning and less on, you know, being a dissatisfied housewife, 177 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: she wouldn't make her child pay the price for her dissatisfaction. 178 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: Talking about how she's neurotic, she has penis envy, and 179 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: it's all the feminist movements fault. And so with all 180 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: of this commentary and academic mumbo jumbo seeping into our 181 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: cultural consciousness, you have these theories developing that are taking 182 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: the perils of mama's boys even farther from the internal 183 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: effects of you know, hampering their social and psychosexual development, 184 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 1: to then blaming mother's too close relationships to their sons 185 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 1: for things such as asthma, autism, and schizophrenia. But but 186 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: worst of all, of course, in in their eyes at 187 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: this time, is being gay right, And sort of the 188 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: the manifestation of all of these social anxieties about gay 189 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: people would be people like sex police, people like Joseph McCarthy, who, 190 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: in the same breath that he denounced communism, was also 191 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: denouncing gay people in the United States at the time. 192 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: But these anxieties became so pronounced that they started coming 193 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: through in our literature and movies and other pop culture 194 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: at the time. And that author vanden Over, who Kristen 195 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, looked at four texts in his book, and 196 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: they all had a dominant mother figure with what he 197 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: called a queer son Figure. They included Suddenly Last Summer, 198 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: The Grotto, Portnoise Complaint, and Psycho, and he talked about 199 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: how all four featured the Sun's sexual transgressions, everything from 200 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: homosexuality to pedophilia and cannibalism. And then he looks at 201 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: Psycho in particular, which came out in nineteen sixty and 202 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: points out that Norman Bates, who is the cross dressing, 203 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: mom obsessed, voyeuristic murderer character spoiler alert boiler and another 204 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: author Alexander Doughty, in his book Flaming Classics Queering the 205 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: film Canon, talks about how Norman, the character of Norman 206 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: Bates is understood to be perverse somehow, quote he is 207 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: the quintessential mama's boy gone horribly bad. But this incestuous 208 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: mama's boy coding is also the basis for reading Norman 209 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: as homosexual. And so there was a lot of literature 210 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: around this time, a lot of this pop culture stuff, 211 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: as in Psycho, where people were equating mama's boy being 212 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: a mama's boy not only with homosexuality and their fears 213 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: about that, but just like all of that being taken 214 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 1: to a really evil level. Well, and then there's also 215 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: the real life application of these assumptions about how, you know, 216 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: the potentially devious effects of this mother's son relationship. In 217 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: the case of the Boston Strangler in the early nineteen sixties, 218 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: the police were essentially basing their idea of the Boston 219 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: Strangler as this, you know, murderer who had to be 220 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: the product of an overbearing mother based on i'man sure 221 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: there were pop cultural cues going on, but what we've 222 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: just talked about this legacy, you know, for decades now 223 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: of all of these horrific theories about the mama's boy, 224 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: and it turns out when he was caught, his mother 225 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: didn't fit the profile at all. No, but this allowed 226 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: did terrible nous that she apparently had, and her son's 227 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: assumed obsession with her had really already infiltrated society's imagination 228 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: because keep in mind, they made a movie based off 229 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: of the Boston Stranglers, like Psychiatric Case File before he 230 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: was even caught. So the mama's boy guilty before proven innocent? Right? 231 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: Is that the right way? Is it? Sure? So? Thanks 232 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: to Freud and are deeply ingrained societal and securities around 233 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: this time, being a mama's boy even today is super loaded, 234 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: and you know, Kristen and I wanted to look into why, 235 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: and as you might imagine, a lot of it has 236 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: to do with gender norms and expectations. And this is 237 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: something that Alana Nash talks about briefly in her book 238 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: American Sweethearts teenage Girls in the twentieth century popular culture, 239 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: which focus is obviously more on girls in the idea 240 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: of the daddy's girl, which we're going to talk about 241 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: in our next podcast. But Nash writes, because of the 242 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: cultural insistence upon heterosexuality, and because heterosexual masculinity is popularly 243 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: imagined to forge itself through separation from feminine influence, a 244 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: boy overly identified with his mama transgresses against gender expectations. Yeah, 245 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: and she writes about how like being a daddy's girl 246 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: is more socially acceptable even if we do have all 247 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: of these societal assumption is tied up, and what did 248 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: daddy's girl means? It's still more socially acceptable because she says, quote, 249 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: it's a diminished female paired with a dominant male that 250 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: is socially normal quote unquote, and it's not pathologized the 251 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: same way that a mama's boy is. Well, and there's 252 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: a whole thing too when it comes to daddy's girls. 253 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: There's this idea that and it makes total sense that 254 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: it should be. You know, it's good for a girl 255 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: to have a solid relationship with her father because he is, 256 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: you know, the primary model of what a especially speaking 257 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: in heteronormative terms, the primary model of what uh, loving, 258 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: caring future mate should look like. You don't see the 259 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,719 Speaker 1: same kind of thing talked about though, in terms of 260 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: mother modeling the ideal mate for her son. No, that's 261 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: what we get into arrested development territory of mother boy dances, 262 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,719 Speaker 1: and it's horrifying. And maybe though that's because of the 263 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: fact that culturally, women as they age and become mothers, 264 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,719 Speaker 1: tend to lose their sexual currency, whereas obviously, you know, 265 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: as men grow older, they can continue to procreate and 266 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: still you know, are are more sexually alluring um in 267 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: their older years. There's so much wrapped up in it, 268 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: and so it seems like overall, my mama's boys are 269 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: more stigmatized and have been historically stigmatized more than the 270 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: idea of a daddy's girl, which is really interesting to 271 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: compare the two. Yeah, but a lot of research, well 272 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: research and also just conversations have been happening in the 273 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: past couple of years about how it's really not as 274 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 1: bad as everybody's panicking about. Yeah, thankfully we are at 275 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: this point in the twenty one century, maybe finally moving 276 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: on just a little bit from Freud. It is a 277 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 1: time of it, and we will talk more about that 278 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: and more of the positive sides of this whole mama's 279 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: boy thing, because it is not all bad, as sons 280 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: and mothers of sons listening can at test when we 281 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: come right back from a quick break. So one woman 282 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: who got really really fed up with this whole mama's 283 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 1: boy stigma is New York Times contributor turned author Kate Lombardi, 284 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: who in two thousand twelve wrote the book on it, 285 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: the Mama's boy myth While keeping our sons close makes 286 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 1: them stronger, And it got a lot of people talking. 287 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: I mean, she she had a ton of press for 288 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 1: this book, which I think says a lot right because 289 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 1: she was one of the first major people to come 290 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: out and loudly proclaimed that you guys are overreacting. There 291 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: is nothing wrong with a mother having a close relationship 292 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 1: with her son. In fact, it's incredibly healthy for him. 293 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: And it also seemed like in all the articles we 294 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 1: read about her or by her, everything was prefaced with 295 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,679 Speaker 1: kit Lombardi has a son. They're very close. But it's 296 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: not like creepy close. It's just, you know, like they're 297 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 1: close and it's healthy. I mean, even the fact that 298 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 1: that who wasn't writing over in the parenting blog over 299 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: the New York Times was talking about how it's unfortunate 300 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 1: that that that distinction even has to be made, and 301 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: that gets to the heart of why she even wrote 302 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 1: this book, calling it a myth in the first place, 303 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: right and writing for Time magazine, Lombardi side a study 304 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: from the journal Child Development where they found that baby 305 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 1: boy is who don't form strong attachments to their mom 306 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: end up becoming more aggressive and destructive children as they 307 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: get older. She also cites sociologist Michael Kimmel, who writes 308 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:16,360 Speaker 1: about how when young sons are encouraged to separate prematurely 309 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: from their moms, they end up becoming anxious and carry 310 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: a fear of intimacy and betrayal into their adult years. 311 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: But you know, you don't hear about that talked about 312 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: the same way that you hear a woman talked about 313 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: who has quote unquote daddy issues if she is insecure, anxious, 314 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: or has a fear of intimacy. Well, that might have 315 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 1: to do with the fact that these ideals of hyper 316 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: masculinity are still very strong within our society. This was 317 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: something that Carlos Santos, professor at Arizona State University, investigated 318 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: for a study he presented to the American Psychological Association 319 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: in two thousand and ten, and he found that as 320 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: boys enter adolescents, they tend to embrace these hyper masculine 321 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: stereotypes more, being influenced mostly by culture, not by this 322 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: hardwiring as we often hear about. Right, and so he 323 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: says that the boys that he looked at who remained 324 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: close to their moms didn't end up acting as tough 325 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: and we're more emotionally available, and then those same boys 326 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 1: went on to have better rates of mental health through 327 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: middle school. And the mom in this situation is is 328 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: key because closeness to dad's didn't have the same effect 329 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 1: on the boys. And he positive that it could be 330 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: that dads are reinforcing intentionally or not reinforcing gender roles, 331 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 1: and that expected typical masculine behavior and so analyzing his study, 332 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: Time Magazine is talking about his findings and talks about 333 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: how these like quote unquote typical masculine traits lead men 334 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: to seek less medical help when it's needed, for instance. 335 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: But those boys who ended up having closer emotional connections 336 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: relationships with their mom, those relationships provided a sense of 337 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: safety and emotional security that ended up reducing stress and 338 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 1: fostering good health. And that makes sense because if you're 339 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: more emotionally literate, basically, if you're more willing to talk 340 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: about how you feel, that greatly reduces stress forming those 341 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: connections with people. Well. And there is though, one thing 342 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: in a lot of the stuff we read, particularly with 343 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: uh Mama's Boys, that maybe research just hasn't caught up 344 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 1: to or what, but the fact that there are a 345 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: growing number of families in the United States and elsewhere 346 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: where there are no moms in the house because there 347 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: are two dads. So I think that the one caution 348 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: with this kind of research, particularly when it's like, well, 349 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: you know, boys can only get this particular kind of 350 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: love and care and attention from a mother figure. They 351 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: can only learn this sort of you know, derive this 352 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: kind of emotional security from that softer feminine force. I 353 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: think that I take that with a grain of salt, 354 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: because I think studies have shown that two fathers can 355 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:13,360 Speaker 1: also provide that kind of openness and caring and kindness 356 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 1: as well. Sure, well, this definitely this research definitely focuses 357 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 1: purely on relationships where it's a woman and a man, 358 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: and the woman is providing that softer feminine mothering nurturing 359 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: influence and the dad and the research is definitely more 360 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: stereotypical male. Yeah, he's mowing the lawn, right, He's always mow. 361 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: Why won't he hug me? Well, when we're talking about 362 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,239 Speaker 1: the nature versus nurture with the whole Mama's boy thing, 363 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: when it comes to nurture, we have to look at 364 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: Italian culture because this is something that comes up a 365 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: lot in Mama's Boy literature, because there is even a 366 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: word in Italian for the close bond between mothers and sons, 367 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: and it is amsmo, that's right, And those men who 368 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: are in those super bonded relationships with mom are called 369 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: the momoni, which is Italian for mamas balls. So in 370 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: I love that there's stats on this fifty of Italian 371 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: men between the ages of thirty four were still living 372 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: at home compared to American men in that age group 373 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: and researchers, mom's sons, everybody. They cite the economy that 374 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: they're saving money, or they're going to school or things 375 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: like that. But back in two thousand seven, the country's 376 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 1: economic minister was like, I've had it. I've had it 377 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,959 Speaker 1: with this thing where you live with your mom, and 378 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: he said it was time to quote get those big 379 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: babies out of the house. Well, and I also found 380 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: that I'm not sure what year it was, but it 381 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: was in the past couple of years that members of 382 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: the athlic Church delivered similar messages saying, Okay, MAMMONI your 383 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: mom will be there, you maybe need to get a 384 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: little more independent, and probably having to say the same 385 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: thing as well to the moms because the moms feed 386 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,120 Speaker 1: it as well, both literally. And figured I would love 387 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: an Italian Mondica for me. But Italian psychologist Julianna Proietti 388 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: looked at why Italian mama's might be fostering this whole relationship, 389 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: this whole living with mom nous and she found that 390 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: the concept of mimesmo has its roots in the traditional 391 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: role of the Italian and then way back Latin woman 392 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: who often felt unfulfilled before career and divorce, we're options. 393 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: So it's like she's, you know, filling some void with 394 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 1: her son. Yeah, I mean that kind of that kind 395 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: of makes sense. It makes sense, I guess. But the 396 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: interesting thing about me mismo is that it seems to 397 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: be a trait that is still considered endearing within the culture. 398 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: Whereas if we jump back to the nineteen forties in 399 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: the US, when you do have so many moms who 400 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: were stuck at home and we're perhaps you know, you 401 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: pouring out their attention on their children because they had 402 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,920 Speaker 1: nothing else that they could really do, no other career options, divorced, 403 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 1: frowned upon, etcetera. But in American culture it spirals into 404 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: this idea of mom is um right. Yeah, I wonder 405 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: what the nineteen forties psychologists. I wonder if they would 406 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: just tear their hair out if they looked at Italian 407 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: men and their mothers. But Italian men, though, are also 408 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: and now I'm just speaking in broad stereotype, so warning, 409 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 1: but it does seem like Italian men are also known 410 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:50,959 Speaker 1: to be more outwardly hyper masculine, you know, So there, 411 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: perhaps it wasn't as much of that that fear that 412 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: you're becoming gentle or soft. Yeah, yeah, that a feminine panic, 413 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: the purple panic and trupport. But I I know that 414 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: I have been friends with and dated men who have 415 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 1: had interesting relationships with their mothers. Yeah, this point, the 416 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 1: point of this podcast was not to explain away the 417 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: fact that there can be perhaps troublesome mother son relationships 418 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: that can negatively impact their relationships with other women against 419 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: speaking head or normatively, although I'm sure that that also 420 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: can influence relationships and in gay relationships as well. Yeah, 421 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: Like I I dated one guy who was like almost 422 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: afraid of his mom. He was terrified about what she 423 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: would think about a lot of stuff, and that was 424 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: stressful for me, just purely for me talking from a 425 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: selfish perspective. Well, and there are also instances when some 426 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: guys are so close to their moms, not in the 427 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: sense of having to call them every day, but just 428 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 1: not being able to make many decisions on their own 429 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: without her first inserting herself in her opinion that that 430 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: could be problematic. So, not surprisingly, there are plenty of 431 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 1: relationship experts out there with lots of advice to give 432 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: about how to navigate those, uh, those kinds of situations 433 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: in which you're dating someone who has a parental relationship 434 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: that sort of becomes a third party in your relationship. Yeah, 435 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: and a lot of these columns say, hey, you know, 436 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: don't be don't be put off if he has a 437 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 1: relationship with his mom. I mean that's a good thing. 438 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: Says good things. If if a man can relate to 439 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: a woman in a normal, healthy way, that's good. However, 440 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: if he is like christ and said, like, you know, 441 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: seeking her approval for everything, her input on everything. If he, 442 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: you know, at thirty five, still goes home every week 443 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: to do laundry and get a home cooked meal, it 444 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: might be nice, though every week it can be a 445 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: lot you can buy case faces case there's some of 446 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: the advice does say like take into account his age, 447 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: you know, if he's twenty one versus if he's forty. 448 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: So just you know, thanks to keep in mind. Kristen 449 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: apparently really really wants men to go go eat dinner 450 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: at their mom's house all the time. No, I'm just 451 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: saying that that can also be you know, if when 452 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: parents are getting older, I have I know, people who 453 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: see their moms every weekend, like that's the thing that 454 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: they do. I don't and it's not, then they're perfectly 455 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,959 Speaker 1: well adjusted people. Just case by case. This case by 456 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: case if it's problematic, and if it is something that 457 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 1: cannot that can never be canceled. For instance, you know, 458 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: if you're dating a guy and you know you want 459 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: to go to some kind of special event or have 460 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: a special day together, and it's on a day that 461 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: he typically goes to see his mom and there's like 462 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: no way he can ever, ever, ever cancel that, then okay, 463 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: then that might be problematic. There you go, perfect example. Well, 464 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: so I'm interested to hear from people, people who have 465 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: had ex apariences with mama's boys, or maybe you think 466 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: you're one. Yeah, yeah, and I mean, and I will say, 467 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: from at least from my anecdotal dating experience, much better 468 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: to have a guy who has a healthy and close 469 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: relationship with his mom than to date a guy who 470 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: hates his mom. If he hates his mom, he's it 471 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: can be challenging. It can be challenging. Parents just in 472 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: general are challenging. Yet again, this podcast triggers my fears 473 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: about having children. So keep it coming, people, let us 474 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: know your thoughts on Mama's voice, and yes, if you 475 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: are one, and if you have been with one or 476 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: currently with one, tell us all of your experiences, your 477 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: tips were navigating it, all of your thoughts. Mom Stuff 478 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is our email address. 479 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or 480 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages 481 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. Well, I have a 482 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: letter here from MICHAELA about our middle Child episode. She says, 483 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: I have the pleasant double whammy of middle child syndrome 484 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: by not only being a middle but being a twin 485 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: in the middle. I have an older, younger and twin sister. 486 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: It doesn't get much more middle e than that. So 487 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: not only did I get my older sisters hand me 488 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 1: down run down car when I got my driver's license, 489 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: but I had to share it with my twin. The youngest, 490 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: of course, got a shiny new one when her turn 491 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: came around. See that resentment still shining through nearly a 492 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: decade later. I think the most interesting thing about sharing 493 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: middledom is that my twin and I have each veered 494 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: in opposite directions. Whereas I tend more toward the oldest child, 495 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: characteristics of being motherly and responsible. My twin tends toward 496 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: the youngest placement, with the characteristics of being sociable and 497 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: laid back. We're both definitely middle children, and my other 498 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: sisters definitely fit their placement as well. I've always been 499 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: the type to buy into the birth order dynamics. My 500 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: family is a prime example. So thanks MICHAELA. And I've 501 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: got a letter here from Kelly which got me so 502 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: excited when I saw it in the Stuff I've Never 503 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: Told You in box, because she was responding to our 504 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: episode a while back Antarctic Women, in which we asked 505 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: if any you Know listeners had been to Antarctica we're 506 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: working there, and she has been, so Kelly writes, I'm 507 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: playing catch up on the podcast and just got to 508 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: the one about the history of women in Antarctica. I 509 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: was particularly excited to hear this since I've worked in 510 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: both the Arctic and Antarctic over the course of my 511 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: MS and PhD. I've been to Antarctica four times, twice 512 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: to Palmerciation on the South America Peninsula side and twice 513 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: to McMurdo Station in the Australian New Zealand sector. Antarctica 514 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: will always hold a place in my heart as well 515 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: as it's where I met my husband. We were introduced 516 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: by David Attenborough, a voice of Frozen Planet and Planet Earth, 517 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: at the BBC's rap party for Frozen Planet. About a 518 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: week after we started dating, insofar as you can date 519 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: on ice, he found out he would be wintering over. 520 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: He was on ice for six more months, fourteen months 521 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: total for him, before we finally got to see each 522 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: other again. We've been married for a little over a 523 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: year now and it's always an adventure. I switched up 524 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: polls for my dissertation research. I'm now studying preferential chemical 525 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: weathering in front of the Greenland ice sheet. I've been 526 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: to various parts of western Greenland for the last three summers, 527 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: and I found my field work in the Arctic to 528 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: be a lot more logistically challenging. So that's probably because 529 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: I've been the one in charge of getting permits, making 530 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: sure we all have our gear, finding places to stay, 531 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: and just generally running the show. I have a lot 532 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: of respect for the early explorers who had to figure 533 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: out what they needed for months and have contingency plans 534 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: when something inevitably went wrong. So thanks for bringing up 535 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: the Antarctic. Well, thank you, Kelly. I love that letter. 536 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: I love her story. I love that she's like, oh, yeah, 537 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: you know, I'm at my husband on Antarctica or whatever, whatever, whatever, 538 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: No big deal, just Antarctica. I mean, come on, an 539 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: antarctic love story. Have David Attenborough make a make a 540 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: documentary about that? Voice it over. It's an idea. 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