WEBVTT - Medieval History with Dan Jones 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:04.200 Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of I Heart Radio 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:12.680 and Grim and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. Hi, 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:15.760 this is Danis Schwartz and this is the seventy five 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:21.000 episode of Noble Blood to celebrate this monumental anniversary. I 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:24.560 am so excited to be joined by the incredible historian 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:28.200 Dan Jones, the author of I think a dozen books. 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:31.200 His latest Power and Thrones, A New History of the 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:36.080 Middle Ages, is basically just the most readable, interesting book 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:39.320 about the entire thousand year period of the Middle Ages, 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:42.640 Like if you have ever had any like questions or 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:45.960 misunderstandings about what actually constitutes the Middle Ages and what's 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:49.839 important about it and what isn't dance book is just phenomenal. 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:53.360 And his first novel, Essex Dogs, which is about a 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:56.520 platoon of soldiers during the Hundred Years War, comes out 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.319 later this year. You should absolutely look it up. I've 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:03.480 read a chapter. It's just phenomenal. I'm basically star struck 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:06.480 that he's here. Dan, Welcome, Thank you so much for 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:09.560 being here. Oh I'm star struck as well. So conversation 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:13.040 is going to be stilted for listeners who maybe recognize 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:16.160 your voice. You are also on the number of Netflix programs. 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:19.040 Do you want to numerate which ones to those are? Well, 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.800 there's a series called Secrets of Great British Castles. We 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:24.440 made two series of it, seasons of it, I guess 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:28.800 you'd call it back in sixteen, and they were great. 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:31.039 Each episode I'd go to a castle and tell some 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:34.640 stories and wander around and like look like quite sort 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:38.400 of earnest at times and other times jocular and like 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:41.520 wave my hands in the TV presented style, and do 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:43.319 you know what. It was like super fun to make, 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:45.880 and they've lived on Netflix for some years now and 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:50.880 I believe like forty territories so in really improbable places, 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:55.120 I'm like the castle guy. We're going to be going 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:58.520 into depth talking about the Middle Ages and Nate of 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:02.280 the Crusade. But tell us a bit about your background. 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.440 How did you become a historian? Well, I had a 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:08.480 really good history teacher in school. And that sounds kind 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:10.640 of banal, I guess, but it tends to be make 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.560 or break. I think history is a subject where charismatic 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:15.800 teachers can get someone interested in history for life, and 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:18.960 the opposite is also true. For no reason other than 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:21.000 I liked my history teacher and did okay in history 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:23.480 at school. I went to study history at Cambridge and 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.239 then specialized in the Middle Ages there. And I would 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:28.400 love to say that I had had this like burning 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:30.920 desire to be a medievalist, but really the day I 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.600 had to fill in my form detailing this isn't June. 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:38.520 That's how old I am. I bet you weren't born then, 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:41.840 just barely, just barely, okay, so well you were saying 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.240 sort of goo goo gaga. I was filling in a 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:46.880 form that said what I wanted to study when I 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:49.520 went to Cambridge was Cambridge give you enormous freedom to 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:51.880 study what you want within the history history tribos, which 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:55.120 is great. And I didn't take it very seriously, which 0:02:55.120 --> 0:02:56.400 is sort of the story of my life. On the 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:59.320 way and I asked my teacher, Hey, what should I study? 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:01.360 And you want to add medieval and yeah, that will do. 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:04.200 So I take the box. And then some months later 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:07.720 October I went to university and I was presented with 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:11.760 like a bunch of medieval history to study. But I 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:14.520 studied under Helen Caster, who is one of the greatest 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:18.000 She's the o g really, and so she taught me 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:20.280 pretty much everything I know about the Middle Ages, and 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:22.360 she was such as again, you know, the story is 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:24.880 of phenomenal teachers. I was taught by her. I was 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:28.880 talked to right by David Starkey, Juday historian, and those 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:33.520 two people were highly influential. Helen on getting me hooked 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.480 on the Middle Ages and David on just teaching me 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.360 how to write the joy of narrative writing and of 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:42.480 argumentative essay writing and a public performance. So that that 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:44.520 was kind of my background. And then I did a 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:46.600 lot of journalism, and I read a newspaper column after 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:50.440 university for ten years, and I suppose that journalistic style 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:55.120 fed somewhat into the narrative history writing style I've developed. 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:58.440 And once I started writing books, I started getting TV 0:03:58.560 --> 0:04:00.760 work as well. And here I am, you're looking at it, 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:04.160 listening to it. There is when you're starting a new book, 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.040 now that you're eleven or twelve in, as you said, 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:09.840 what's your process like when you have an idea and 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:12.040 then what's your research process? Like? How long does it 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:15.560 take you? I guess I've got like a pool of 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:19.320 ideas at any one time that I know one of 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:22.400 them is going to develop, And I'm usually relatively certain 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:23.960 about what I'm gonna be doing for the next two 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.160 or three books. Well that's the way it is now anyway. 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:31.039 The very first the sort of primordial pool of idea 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:35.760 forming is just like thoughts kind of ambiently buzzing around 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:37.559 my head as I go about my day to day business, 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.479 usually while I'm working on something else, and then the 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:42.320 time will come when I've actually got to start writing 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:43.840 a book. I tend to write a book a year, 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:45.719 not a big book every year, but I tend to 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:47.760 have a big book one year and then a different 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:50.840 project the next year, and I alternate like that. So 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:55.239 I'm extremely architectural as a writer. So the first phase 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:59.839 of any book work that I do involves no sitting 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:03.000 at my laptop typing at all, not really very much reading, 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:05.520 just a lot of thinking around the subject and trying 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.760 to build a framework of how I would envisage your book. 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:12.080 So Powers and Thrones, which is my most recent nonfiction book, 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:14.760 while the subject matter was a history of the Middle 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:16.720 Ages and so in all I really had by way 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.200 of a brief from my publisher was we start with 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:20.800 a sack of rown four ten and go to the 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:25.320 sack of room seven, and then it's like fill your boots. So, okay, 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:27.200 I've got two bookends for that's I think it, Well, 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:30.720 how do we create this thematically? Then I approached that idea. 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:32.840 I thought, what's what's important in the history of the 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:35.520 Middle Ages that will talk to a twenty one century audience, 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:38.800 because of course these history is the business of communicating 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.200 across the years. So I came up with some a 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:44.000 list of five themes I thought were Germaine, both to 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:46.160 the subject matter around to the audience, And then I 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:49.320 started like breaking it down. I have weird and it's 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.440 fairly arbitrary numerical obsessions. So with Powers and Thrones, I 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.360 was absolutely certain it had to be sixteen chapters, four 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:59.000 parts of four. I mean, there's a real reason why. 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:02.960 I just decided. At some point when I was doing Creasing, yeah, 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:06.719 I mean it probably makes you could okay, you could 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:09.400 rationalize it, you could post rationalize it, but I can't 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:11.000 tell you that that's how it feels. At the time 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.600 when I was doing Crusaders, I was like, this book 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:18.520 is twenty seven chapters, three lots of nine. I don't 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.039 know why. I just felt the story felt like you 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:22.640 get a feel for it after a while. You just 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:24.400 feel you know what the shape of the story is. 0:06:25.160 --> 0:06:26.640 You can chuck all of that out the window. When 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:28.719 it comes to fiction, I've just written, as you kindly 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:32.480 pointed out, a novel, and that that was a completely 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:34.640 different matter. You're much more adapted that, so I should 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.640 ask you the questions. Really, No, absolutely not. I feel 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:39.719 like I'm already learning. I have no idea how many 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:42.680 chapters my nextbook is going to be. I'm so behind. 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:45.839 Are you gonna be writing fictional nonfiction both? I have 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.400 both in the can right now. I have no idea 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:52.760 how many chapters either, as this is maybe why I'm struggling. Well, 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:55.000 do you know what? A few years ago I had 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:57.560 dinner with George R. R. Martin right, who created a 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:01.400 Game of Thrones, and George and I while I interviewed 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:03.600 him in front of a big audience, and then we 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.200 had dinner afterwards, and George said something that really stuck 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:08.039 in my mind. He said, there's two types of writer. 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:11.680 He said, You've got architects and gardeners. And you said, 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:15.600 the architect plans that everything very meticulously and then starts 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:17.520 to build. And I thought, that's the type of writer, right, 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:20.000 And it's true nonfiction. That is the type of writer 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.680 I am. And he said, the gardener just plants seed 0:07:22.720 --> 0:07:26.520 and lets it grow. Now he spoke much more favorably 0:07:26.560 --> 0:07:28.560 about the gardener. So that's the type of writer he is. 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.040 And I thought I could never be that writer. Okay, 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:32.920 So when I sat down to at Essex Dogs, which 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:36.040 is the novel later this year, I was like, well, 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:39.600 here comes an architect writing and writing a novel. I 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:41.720 found a plan the hell out of this. And I 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:44.880 sat and I planned, and I tried to like have 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:47.320 it all in its shapes and forms for us started 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:48.840 and I sat there and for the first time in 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:50.440 my life, I looked at a blank page and I thought, 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:52.000 I don't know what to do with this. And I 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:54.440 realized that the thing to do, and this is everyone's 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:58.040 process is completely different. So just may resonate with you. 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:00.120 We may resonate with your listeners. It may not. You 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:03.680 may think what a load of nonsense. But my process 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:07.520 now is to do some yoga and then to just 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:12.200 sort of lie about with my feet on that sofa 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:14.640 that like in the back of my office, to just 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.240 sort of lie there. I want. Sorry. There was like 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:19.440 this jay Z trailer for one of his albums once 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:21.280 it was from Mgmacarter, Holy Grail. There's a bit of 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:25.600 jay Z in the studio. Okay, yeah, there's There's always 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:28.440 gonna be medieval and he's he talks a little bit 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.320 in that video to Rick Rubin, the legendary rock and 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.679 sometime hip hop producer, and Rick Rubin in that video 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:36.880 is the comfious looking man I've ever seen. He's just 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:39.400 lying stroking his big long beard on a sofa while 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:41.280 all the other producers were kind of uptightens in there. 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:45.079 Rick Rubens just like back like this, and so I 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:47.079 gotta I call it the Rick Rubin pose. I've got 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:49.480 to get into before him in any position to write fiction, 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:52.560 and wants them in the Rubin pose, and you're like 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:56.080 almost half asleep, like in communion with your dream state. 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:59.560 Then and only then am I ready to write It 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:03.199 looks it's completely different. I like to do a lot 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:06.839 of brainstorming in bed horizontal before I go to sleep, 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:09.160 where I'll like turn off the light and it'll be 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:11.320 like ten o'clock and my fiancee will think I'm like 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:14.079 going to bed. He'll be like, okay, well you're asleep, 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:17.360 and I'm like, I'm not asleep, I'm working. It's all 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:20.040 part of the process. Sometimes you just need to let 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:22.120 the ideas come. You've got to be in that state 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:24.120 and it's about you know, sound this is gonna sound 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:27.959 super woo. But I really think there's a different mental frequency, 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:30.160 maybe even a different party of brain at play writing 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:32.720 fiction and nonfiction, which is weird because the trick I've 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:35.600 always tried to pull in nonfiction is to make it 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:38.800 feel like fiction. But that said, a lot of what 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:42.200 I've drawn on in writing nonfiction does not come from novels. 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:45.600 That comes from screenwriting. Its school screenwriting technique that sits 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:49.120 under my history books, so that that's very structural. I'm 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:53.359 interested in George R. Martin, particularly because he seems very 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:56.120 inspired by history. Do you know for a fact if 0:09:56.160 --> 0:09:59.920 he's read Or of the Roses. I don't think he had. 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:02.959 So I did a thing for the season five DVD 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:06.040 of Thrones which was like the real history. It's like, 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:08.600 it's a pretty good documentary. Actually, there's me and Kelly 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:12.080 to Resent, a couple other historians and George and the 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:14.400 HBO people. When I went to New York to shoot 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:18.000 that were like, George is just your greatest fan. Dan 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:20.439 in Santa Fe He's got your books on his desk, 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:22.600 and I really believe that at the time, and then 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:26.000 in retrospect I think they were just flattering me. Well, look, 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:28.880 he was writing about Game of Thrones when I wasn't 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.679 far off Google Baby, so I was a long way 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:34.480 from having written Wards of the Roses at that point. 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:38.440 Well back to the Middle Ages, I admit it's a period. 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:40.960 I mean, it's such an intimidating period, one that I 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:44.240 never really felt like I've gotten a handle on. To 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:49.000 listeners who maybe don't know what actually constitutes the Middle Ages, 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.760 and why is it called the Dark Ages, I would argue, 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:56.080 and I think you would argue incorrectly. Maybe the best 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:58.840 place to go to answer that is sixteenth century, which 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:02.080 is the end of Middle Ages, and that's sort of 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:04.920 where we first start hearing the term the Middle Age, 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:09.800 if not the Middle Ages. So in fifteen sixty three, 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:14.960 I think maybe four, John Fox, the great Protestants writer, 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.040 write his Book of Martyrs, Acts and Monuments. It's it's 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:20.480 most problem more propertyle It's called Fox's Book of Martists, 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:23.000 and it's a it's a it's an ecclesiastical history, basically 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:27.200 leaning into the subject of martyrdom, and particularly of the 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:31.080 Protestant Martyrst. Fox, in the course of vacts of Monuments, 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:36.280 tries to like salami slice up history, and he says, 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:39.120 it's not salami sce beIN. It's really big chunks. He says, 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:44.959 there's three ages in history. He says, there's the primitive age, 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:49.440 by which he means if really pagan Rome and everything 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:52.760 proceeding and in Christian Nicolesia scal terms, that's sort of 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:56.400 poor old persecuted Christians be hiding from Romans and catacombs. 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:58.960 And Fox says, and there's our present age, you know, 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:00.920 just as we think of our sols now as being 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:03.960 differentiated by being alive or you know, we are quite 0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:07.000 quite modern. So Fox thought about his own time in 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:09.800 the fifteen sixties and he said that, well, between these 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:15.040 two bits, that's the terribly enlightened post Reformation sixteenth century 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:19.160 and the pagan classical world. There's like the Middle Age, 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.640 he says, the Middle Age, and it's like it's just 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:23.760 this sort of lump in the middle. Now. Of course, 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:26.480 if we define that as I have slightly more tightly 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:30.240 as being saccarone four ten Sacar seven, we're still talking 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.400 about eleven hundred some years. That's a big chunk of 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:37.080 recorded human history. And why is it then to the 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.720 Dark Ages? Usually it's the early Middle Ages that defines 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.320 the Dark Ages, so everything up to about from the 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:47.400 five hundred through nine hundred, with some very very slight 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:51.280 justification in that the written record tends to be much much, 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:55.079 much much patchier in Western Europe, certainly at that time. 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:58.640 There is a sense, if you read the history again 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:02.679 of Western Europe, that there's a retreat in the Christian 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:09.000 world from the scientific and learning of the ancient world, 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:12.120 and that seems, you know, anti progressive to many people. 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:14.520 And there's just a sort of sense that it's already 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:16.400 difficult and far away, and no one wants to have 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:18.240 very much to do it. It's gross, I mean, why 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:21.320 would you how would you like get dirty in the 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:24.920 Middle Ages, which can be pretty intimidating and weird when 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:28.160 far pretty of bits of history to look at, you know, 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:30.839 the sort of glories of Republican Rome or the great 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:35.480 scientific advances brackets minus dreadful imperialism of the nineteenth century. 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:38.120 You know, these things are probably more attractive to most 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:40.840 sane people. They were terribly unattractive to me as subjects 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:42.680 to study when I was growing up. I don't really 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:46.200 know why that's mad. That's mad. Well, let's flip it around. 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:48.320 Say what's attractive about the Middle Ages? The Middle Ages 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:51.640 is inherently and although this is I'm just saying this 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:53.200 to be look at it through the prism of the 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:56.360 Victorian Age, which created this reputation. It is sort of 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.640 inherently romantic. I mean, I realized all the problems with 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.160 statements are not stupid. But be that as it may. 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:05.680 We do happen to live after the nineteenth century, and 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.040 we are still stuck with many of the preconceptions of 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:10.880 the nineteenth century. In our general worldview, the Middle Ages 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:12.960 does seem romantic, or it seems ramantic to a child 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:14.800 who wants to study things. It's got nights, and it's 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.000 got princesses, and he's sort castles, and it's got daring 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:21.240 do and everyone goes about a horse. Tell me that's 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:23.120 not a world that it seems like on the surface 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.360 of things attractive to you. Perfect segue, because I would 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.360 love to talk to you about the historical basis of 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.720 our Thurian legend. I feel like I was one of 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:36.440 those children who grew up in you know, Chicago, reading 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.840 our Thurian legend and thinking like, oh, this is this 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:43.920 is magical, this is purely fictitious. These are fairy tales. 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:46.960 And of course you get older and you discovered that 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:50.440 there's been, you know, historical figures who have been proposed 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:55.160 as the real king Arthur probably didn't look like we 0:14:55.240 --> 0:15:00.000 imagine in story books. Yeah, I think there are certain 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:02.400 figures from the Middle Ages. Arthur is one of them, 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.720 Robin Hood is another. They're kind of perfect bridges were 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:07.680 getting people into the Middle Age because there's there's a 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:10.400 huge volume of fiction about them, which has in itself 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:13.320 a nearly a thousand year history in the case of 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:16.360 Arthur at any rate, and there is the tantalizing prospect 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.800 that some of this might actually be true. Now I 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:23.000 have read so you don't have to the many, many 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:27.280 books which go looking for a real historical basis for 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:30.680 King Arthur, for Merlin, for at Lancelot, for person, for 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:34.320 whatever whatever, the Camelot. And you know, it doesn't take 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:38.840 very long immersed in that early medieval literature, earnest as 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:43.080 it is to say, well, it's very clear what's going on. 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:49.400 There is nobody in history who meaningfully resembles the Arthur 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:51.880 we know from a fiction. So really, what are we 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:55.120 looking for? Well, are we looking for a person whose 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:59.720 example was the original basis for the very first Arthurian stories? 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:02.160 And I've concluded I think over the years even that 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.360 is really a sort of misapprehension of the problem. These 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:09.480 stories were not created by and large in the twelfth century, 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:14.360 from you know, creating dat onwards it's like saying, well, no, wait, 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:18.600 who was the real iron Man? Who was this real 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:22.360 spider man you speak of? Like, well, you know, you 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:25.360 haven't really understood that what's going on here? The primary 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.560 purpose of storytelling was not to elaborate on the real 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:30.560 deeds of a known historical figure. That was just to 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:32.560 kind of tell a story. It gets a kind of 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:36.080 asked backwards to go looking for the real Arthur. However, 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:38.800 like I said that, the initial prospect that there might 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:41.160 be a real, real King Arthur was this a real 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:44.080 person is sexy enough to get people into the Middle Ages. 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:46.200 The same for Robin. It the same for Robin. I 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:50.240 suppose The question is when did the fictional accounts begin. 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:54.040 That's that's a much more interesting and better question, because 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:57.000 the fiction that the real kind of the cradle of 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:00.280 our thuryana if you like twelve early twelfth cent true 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:06.520 creating to Perceval of wolf Bach Perceval, is it flourishing 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:08.760 Jeffrey Monmouth to an extent in the history of the 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:11.440 Kings of Britain. I have to already interrupt and say, 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:14.919 I'm already furious and how well you pronounced those French names, 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:18.680 because as any listener to this podcast knows, it's absolutely 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.520 impossible to me, and here you come in just effortlessly 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:24.800 dropping all of those French names, teaching listeners that it 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:27.360 is possible. Well, I've been I have been in Morocco, 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:29.160 in France for the last two weeks. I mean, my friends, 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:31.480 is pretty horrible. Like if if you'd see me in 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:36.320 France struggling my I to negotiate buying an umbrella in 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:40.240 a shop in m Bois the other day, and it 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.439 was a very torturous conversation. I went through trying to 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:44.600 buy this umbrella and a pair of nail clippers, may 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:46.840 I add, and there was a problem with the card machine, 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:49.080 and I got to like, I got so far with 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:52.040 this conversation, like hacking my way in French, and then 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:54.000 just like I was just hit my limit, and I 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:58.840 was like, excuse me, belivionly, and she went, oh, yeah, 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:01.600 I'm American. And I was like dumbfound and I thought, 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:04.879 was my friend really so good that I tricked? You know, 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:09.040 you were just being weirdly polite for an American. And anyway, 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.720 put all that aside, Let's go back to the early 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:14.760 twelfth century. This is the cradle of Artherian and what's 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:18.000 the context for all of these stories Suddenly like flourishing 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.679 and becoming you know, used the analogy already, but like 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:24.679 the Marvel movies of the day, at this end, this 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.760 this sort of open world where stories can be retold 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:29.639 and characters and pitched up in each other stories and 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:33.040 all that. It's it's the high point of sort of 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:36.240 nightly chivalry in a way, the concept of the night, 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:41.760 that is, the heavy cavalry, the warrior on mounted on horseback, 0:18:41.920 --> 0:18:44.760 armed with sword and lance, that had sort of come 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:53.840 into European military and political society from the early tenth century. 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.439 By the mid eleventh century, if we think, you know, 0:18:56.440 --> 0:19:00.480 we're talking about ten sixty six Norman invasion of England, 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:04.200 the even then, nights are still it's still a work 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:05.760 in progress if you can, if you can think of 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:10.240 the bear tapestry, the horse mounted warriors, they're still have 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.280 spears in their hands rather than couch lances, which is 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:15.680 the sort of you know, the essence of nightly combat. 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:18.359 So it takes a long time for firstly, what is 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.720 the essence of a night on horseback as as a 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:24.680 military entity, that take that takes a while to develop 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:28.840 technologically and strategically. What takes even longer to develop is 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:32.960 this kind of cast mentality and common social code among 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:36.000 those warriors, which we call knighthood, a set of principles 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.600 and beliefs and code of conduct and worldviews and if 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.560 even if we want to be pretentious and memes, that 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:45.280 takes a little bit longer to develop. But by the 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.040 early twelfth century, you know, the aftermath of the First 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:51.359 Crusade really even this sort of you know, the Second 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:55.000 Crusades coming around. The way knights are in business and 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:59.879 knighthood has really become bound into noble culture and our 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.320 aristocratic culture in Western Europe. And part of the consequence 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:06.400 of a cast mentality, or part of what reliable historical 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:08.600 features of the cast mentality or a group in a 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:11.159 group culture of that sort is that you start to 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:15.560 have origin stories. You start to have fables of knighthood 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.640 and these imaginary deeds and nights from a past that's 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:21.280 just over the horizon. You know, we can't quite grasp 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:23.360 who these people really were, but we know they lived 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:25.560 in a great time when the land was populated by 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:28.520 giants and scary beasts, and they did heroic deeds, and 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:30.520 we the nights and today should tri and emulate them. 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:32.879 So that's what's going on in the early twelfth century. 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:35.600 Knighthood's on a roll, and along with it come these 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:40.240 these wonderful stories. Well, and and once that's established, once 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:43.960 nighthood has its own literature, really interesting things start to happen. 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:50.000 So people grow up listening to primarily listening to these, 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:52.200 you know, these stories of Arthur and the Knights, the 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:55.879 round table and chivalry. A good example be William Marshall, 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:57.720 who you probably talked about before. We can talk about 0:20:57.720 --> 0:20:59.560 in some more detail if you want. Men like this 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:02.720 grow up hearing these stories, then start to try to 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:06.800 absorb these ideas within the ar theory and legends into 0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:09.920 their own behavior, and almost the tropes of fiction start 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:13.200 to inform the realities of warfare and then William Marshall's case, 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:16.080 the deeds of these real people are then written up. 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:19.160 So you have this sort of popular eat itself thing 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:22.679 going on where not to just becomes such a self 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:26.520 referential phenomenon. That's that's full of stories being told of 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:29.679 generation to generation and people growing up feeling that they 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:32.560 are both existing in the real world and existing in 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:36.119 this kind of old turnate fantasy reality that goes along 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:39.679 with the profession Who is William Marshall? What is the 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:44.480 cliff notes version of that story? So William Marshall, by 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:49.119 his own estimation or certainly the estimation of his sons 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:52.840 and friends who commissioned his biography The History of William 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:56.600 Marshall in the early thirteenth century of nineteen as a 0:21:56.800 --> 0:22:00.400 massively long old French verse account of the Marshal life 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:05.119 idealized somewhat. But Marshall was a man of the late 0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:08.040 twelfth and early thirteenth century who was one of the 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:11.240 younger sons of a night called John Marshall, who was 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:13.959 fighting in the eleven thirties in the anarchy between Stephen 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:17.119 and Matilda, the English Civil war for the throne between 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:21.320 rival descendants of King Henry the first both grandchildren. William 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:26.679 the Conqueror and Marshall was five years old during that war, 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:30.040 and his first encounter with warfare, according to this story 0:22:30.040 --> 0:22:33.479 of William Marshall, was his father was holding a castle 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:36.960 against King Stephen, one of the belligerents in the anarchy 0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:39.560 in that civil war. And King Stephen had hold of 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:41.840 young William because he was being held as a sort 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:45.840 of hostage for honorable behavior. And Steven's men put young 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:47.960 William in the bucket of a trebor share, you know, 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:50.600 one of those giant siege catapults, and said, oh right, John, 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:53.399 we're gonna we're gonna hurd your kid at this castle 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:57.240 wall and his prospects of not being you know, ketch 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:02.200 up after we finished our slight um paraphrase, and John 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:04.320 Marshall said, do what you please. I've got loads of kids. 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:07.760 May This is a classic story we see from tale telling. 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:10.879 But what does young William Marshall do. Well, he's so 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:13.280 naive and kind of charming. He charms King Stephen and 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:16.720 makes him laugh, which is dearly a key skill in life, 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:19.720 which I know you possess. So he charms King Stephen 0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:22.639 to such an extent that Stephen goes Oh no, we can't. 0:23:22.640 --> 0:23:25.199 We can't reduce this poor childhood catch up. Let's let 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:27.240 him hang around with me for a bit. And that's 0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:31.120 the start of young William Marshall's career in royal service, 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:33.480 and he goes on to be raised as a knight 0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:35.200 at the family of one of the Marshall of the 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:38.439 friends of one of the Marshall family in France. He 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:42.760 then enters the service of the Plantation as the early Plantations, 0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:45.920 so at various times in his career he writes in 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:49.560 tournaments with Henry the Young King, that's the eldest son 0:23:49.680 --> 0:23:52.800 and peustive successor of Henry the Second, the first Plantation 0:23:52.800 --> 0:23:54.919 the King. He serves Henry the Young King, he serves 0:23:54.920 --> 0:23:57.359 Henry the Second, he serves Eleanor of Aquitaine. He serves 0:23:57.440 --> 0:23:59.879 Richard the Lionheart, he serves King John, and eventually Sir 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:03.160 John's son, Henry the Third. He is the man who's 0:24:03.280 --> 0:24:06.000 sort of responsible for saving the Plantagenet crown so that 0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:08.479 Henry the Third can wear it when King John's at 0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:10.760 war with both the French and his own parents. So 0:24:10.960 --> 0:24:14.040 Marshall's career is a really really good way to look 0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:17.879 at the first two to three generations of the Plantagenets, 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:19.840 and the history of William Marshall is one of our 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:23.520 most entertaining and important sources for that time. You know, 0:24:23.560 --> 0:24:27.280 we're talking here temporarily between the eleven fifties and the 0:24:27.359 --> 0:24:33.280 twelve tens. Marshall's biography is brilliant because he's such a 0:24:33.400 --> 0:24:39.399 charismatic and entertaining character. You know, his central moral precept 0:24:39.680 --> 0:24:44.240 is loyalty, and loyalty is what his entire story over 0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:46.840 these tens of thousands of old French verses supposed to 0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:50.320 supposed to make us meditate upon. He gets in all 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:53.479 sorts of entertaining scrapes. He's you know, he is a 0:24:53.600 --> 0:24:55.919 very very talented knight, you know, and and typical of 0:24:56.080 --> 0:24:58.480 Nights in many ways. As a young man, as I said, 0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:00.760 he's right on the tournament circuit, and you know, being 0:25:00.760 --> 0:25:03.520 on a tournament team and being a well known tournament 0:25:03.920 --> 0:25:06.520 it was a very good way to make money, connections 0:25:06.760 --> 0:25:10.040 and prestige in the world in which those values were 0:25:10.119 --> 0:25:14.120 highly regarded by polities in general. So Marshall's very tuned 0:25:14.119 --> 0:25:17.360 to tournament. He's just he's got the ability to get 0:25:17.400 --> 0:25:20.119 on with people, and he's he has a great military 0:25:20.160 --> 0:25:22.640 skill set at a time when the business of politics 0:25:22.800 --> 0:25:25.600 is largely goes on crusade, on Third Crusade, or that 0:25:25.600 --> 0:25:28.560 that weirdly is not really mentioned, actually doesn't go in 0:25:28.560 --> 0:25:30.440 the Third Crusade. I'm sorry. He goes to the Holy 0:25:30.520 --> 0:25:33.040 Land around the time of the Third Crusade, probably not 0:25:33.080 --> 0:25:35.920 on the Third Crusade, but that's that's a weird little 0:25:35.920 --> 0:25:39.359 sort of gap in his history. And anyway, you know, 0:25:39.400 --> 0:25:41.320 so look, we get to see all the plantagants through 0:25:41.320 --> 0:25:44.520 Marshall's eyes, and then his biography has already said is 0:25:44.560 --> 0:25:47.640 written up in It's not our theory arena, but it's 0:25:47.680 --> 0:25:49.880 a sort of new version of our theory ana. It's 0:25:49.920 --> 0:25:54.159 like saying, hey, here's another epic, sort of romantic poem 0:25:54.200 --> 0:25:56.160 about the deeds of the night. Only guess what this 0:25:56.200 --> 0:25:59.760 one is absolutely true. I mean, it's fantastic read. You know, 0:25:59.800 --> 0:26:03.040 when you mentioned that the jousting sort of circuit of 0:26:03.119 --> 0:26:05.439 that time in your book, you sort of trace the 0:26:05.520 --> 0:26:09.440 history of jousting up until the festival joustings of like 0:26:09.640 --> 0:26:12.400 you know, King Henry the Eighth, which I think modern 0:26:12.640 --> 0:26:16.080 people most often associated like that's what jousting is. It's 0:26:16.119 --> 0:26:19.720 sort of like just for fun. It's sort of celebratory. 0:26:19.760 --> 0:26:24.040 What were those early jousting circuits, like, you know a 0:26:24.040 --> 0:26:27.240 few hundred years before that. So when we say jousting, 0:26:27.320 --> 0:26:30.160 that's immediately going to bring to mind your listeners. I'm 0:26:30.200 --> 0:26:33.560 sure Heath Ledger in a Night's Tale, right, like you know, 0:26:33.640 --> 0:26:35.439 we will rock you. And they're in the lists and 0:26:35.480 --> 0:26:37.720 they sort of they ride at each other and then 0:26:37.840 --> 0:26:43.440 bash the lances into shields and someone falls off or doesn't. Okay, century, 0:26:43.480 --> 0:26:46.879 absolutely that's tournaments. It's fighting in front of an audience. 0:26:46.880 --> 0:26:49.879 It's a bit like m m A or boxing today. 0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:53.640 It's just organized violence and quite a contained environment with 0:26:53.880 --> 0:26:57.560 some sense of an ethical code and some Unless you're 0:26:57.840 --> 0:27:01.200 Henry the Second of France, right, yes, well all bets 0:27:01.200 --> 0:27:03.600 are off at that point. I mean all bets are 0:27:03.600 --> 0:27:07.160 off in France in general. Go way back to where 0:27:07.240 --> 0:27:12.720 we're talking about William and Marshall in the twelfth century. 0:27:12.960 --> 0:27:18.480 Tournaments look absolutely nothing like that, and quite many times, 0:27:18.520 --> 0:27:20.440 at many times and in many places they're actually a 0:27:20.480 --> 0:27:23.480 legalist that are so dangerous. The tournament at that point 0:27:23.720 --> 0:27:28.520 is conducted over a very large open space which could 0:27:28.640 --> 0:27:33.359 stretch dozens of miles in either direction. Maybe even scores 0:27:33.400 --> 0:27:38.520 of miles in another direction. Teams turn up and the 0:27:38.640 --> 0:27:41.359 name of the game is, over the course of several days, 0:27:41.480 --> 0:27:46.359 to ride one another down, not kill one another, you know, 0:27:46.560 --> 0:27:50.439 that's that was very bad form. But to fight at 0:27:50.440 --> 0:27:54.080 about eight percent capacity and capture one another. And once 0:27:54.200 --> 0:27:56.760 once you've captured somebody, then they would have to buy 0:27:56.800 --> 0:28:01.240 back from you their liberty, their horses, and their armor, 0:28:01.600 --> 0:28:04.480 which were the three things which were the most important 0:28:04.600 --> 0:28:07.840 to a night. And they could be quite violent, quite rough. 0:28:07.920 --> 0:28:12.280 They obviously attracted large crowds of hangers on, ranging from 0:28:12.560 --> 0:28:15.960 well to do support as well wishes and spectators through 0:28:16.000 --> 0:28:18.879 to you know, the hangers on that were always accompanied 0:28:18.880 --> 0:28:22.520 any festivities or festivals sort of dealers and spieves and 0:28:22.680 --> 0:28:26.200 drunkards and thieves and the usual crowd the people you 0:28:26.280 --> 0:28:28.760 find me hanging out with. If I guess, what's the 0:28:28.760 --> 0:28:31.480 sport itself? Like, I guess you've got to be quite 0:28:31.560 --> 0:28:33.800 rich to take part in it. So it's a little 0:28:33.800 --> 0:28:37.480 bit like Formula one motor racing, but with the casual 0:28:38.200 --> 0:28:42.800 violence of mixed martial arts. Yes, of rugby or American football. 0:28:43.080 --> 0:28:45.280 You know you need horsemanships. It's a bit like polo 0:28:45.520 --> 0:28:47.880 I suppose that the horsemanship plus wealth makes a little 0:28:47.880 --> 0:28:50.000 bit like the polo circuit, but with the with the 0:28:50.080 --> 0:28:53.280 violence and danger of Formula one and rugby, it must 0:28:53.280 --> 0:28:55.959 have been great fun. I think, enormous fun. And if 0:28:55.960 --> 0:28:57.880 you've got involved in this, you know, if you can 0:28:57.880 --> 0:28:59.320 get a start, if you get on a team and 0:28:59.360 --> 0:29:01.440 you're any good, you could really make quite a lot 0:29:01.440 --> 0:29:03.760 of money because you could capture people, you own money 0:29:03.800 --> 0:29:06.160 ransoming the gear back, or you could lose your shirt 0:29:06.160 --> 0:29:08.200 as well. This happens to William Marshall. You know, he's 0:29:08.280 --> 0:29:10.440 early on in his tournament career, gets a bit cocky, 0:29:10.480 --> 0:29:13.200 and then he's captured and he loses pretty much everything. 0:29:13.280 --> 0:29:16.880 And at that point you're relying on your team sponsor 0:29:17.000 --> 0:29:19.560 or captain. You know, it's element of Aquitaine or Henry 0:29:19.560 --> 0:29:21.800 the Young King to bail you out or you're in 0:29:22.000 --> 0:29:24.960 bother and Marshall at various times ends up a prisoner 0:29:24.960 --> 0:29:26.520 for quite a while. There's a great story in his 0:29:26.560 --> 0:29:29.000 biography where he's a prisoner and he's been injured in 0:29:29.000 --> 0:29:31.480 one of these tournaments. You think he's had I think 0:29:31.480 --> 0:29:33.800 he's had a lanced through his leg and he's got 0:29:33.800 --> 0:29:36.040 a very painful wound in his leg and it's sort 0:29:36.040 --> 0:29:38.880 of bandages stuffed in it and it's dressed. He's got 0:29:38.880 --> 0:29:42.000 to be really careful because it's a serious round and 0:29:42.040 --> 0:29:45.400 he's being sort of taken around servery borying by whoever's 0:29:45.400 --> 0:29:48.600 captured him. I can't remember it. And one night the 0:29:48.600 --> 0:29:53.200 people have captured him having this competition of who can 0:29:53.280 --> 0:29:57.240 throw this giant stone, the furthest it's very good, it's 0:29:57.280 --> 0:30:00.360 good boys stuff. There was an HBO they had to 0:30:00.480 --> 0:30:03.440 entertain themselves somehow exactly. You know, if we get Netflix 0:30:03.480 --> 0:30:06.760 and Chill has chuck a massive stone and Chill or not, 0:30:07.520 --> 0:30:10.120 and so they're chucking a massive stone about and Marshall 0:30:10.240 --> 0:30:13.880 he can't like he's he just can't sit there and watch. 0:30:13.920 --> 0:30:16.040 It's like, come on, guys, give me a go. But 0:30:16.600 --> 0:30:17.880 I don't think you want to go. I don't think 0:30:17.880 --> 0:30:20.160 you want to play at this. Give me a passed 0:30:20.200 --> 0:30:24.200 me to stone, really passed me to stone. So he 0:30:24.240 --> 0:30:26.760 gets the stone, of course, because he has to win. 0:30:27.640 --> 0:30:30.680 Just laughs. He throws it so hard that all the 0:30:30.760 --> 0:30:33.120 stitches and the badges bast out of his leg and 0:30:33.120 --> 0:30:35.479 he's worse off afterwards. In the other one's before but 0:30:35.480 --> 0:30:38.920 that's that's told us a relatively comical story in the 0:30:39.000 --> 0:30:41.960 history of William Marshall, which is like his desire, his 0:30:42.160 --> 0:30:48.200 nightly prowess occasionally got the better of him. Pride. Pride 0:30:48.240 --> 0:30:51.000 comes before a burst leg as they say, Yeah, that's 0:30:51.000 --> 0:30:54.320 what they say. One other thing I'm interested in speaking 0:30:54.320 --> 0:30:57.200 to you about, obviously because you're the expert on English 0:30:57.280 --> 0:31:01.360 and British castles, the idea of the evil castle, When 0:31:01.400 --> 0:31:04.320 does that really come about? I think we're picturing like, 0:31:04.600 --> 0:31:07.760 you know, cartoon castle of like the stone turrets and 0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:11.880 archers through the slits. I think I know what you're 0:31:11.880 --> 0:31:15.160 talking about, you know, like think about the cartoon castle, 0:31:15.240 --> 0:31:17.800 which surely even if King Arth there was you know, 0:31:17.840 --> 0:31:21.840 quote unquote real that wouldn't have existed in the fifth century. 0:31:21.960 --> 0:31:25.960 But when do we get the classic stone castle. Well, yeah, 0:31:25.960 --> 0:31:28.920 the story of the castles, story of of several important 0:31:28.920 --> 0:31:34.160 phases of evolution. So beginning really around the turn of 0:31:34.200 --> 0:31:37.640 the first millennium tenth century, I suppose you start to see, 0:31:37.800 --> 0:31:40.440 particularly with the Normans, a lot of the drivers of 0:31:40.480 --> 0:31:43.640 a lot of medieval history that is still familiar to 0:31:43.680 --> 0:31:46.000 us today often tend to be the Norman's. This group 0:31:46.040 --> 0:31:50.520 of sort of Viking descended Francified roughnecks from Normandy, which 0:31:50.560 --> 0:31:53.480 is a little bit to the west of Paris center 0:31:53.560 --> 0:31:57.760 on Room in modern France. The Normans are great castle builders, 0:31:57.960 --> 0:32:02.280 and during the tenth eleventh century you start to see 0:32:02.280 --> 0:32:05.840 it a typical Norman castle, which would be a well 0:32:05.920 --> 0:32:08.520 called a motte and bailey castle. So you're going to 0:32:08.600 --> 0:32:11.360 have a keep, which is a sort of stronghold, usually 0:32:11.360 --> 0:32:14.360 built on a sort of artificial or natural hill, and 0:32:14.360 --> 0:32:17.640 then round it an enclosure with other wooden palisades or 0:32:17.680 --> 0:32:21.240 you know, even stone walls in some instances, and within 0:32:21.320 --> 0:32:23.760 that's the bailey. So that's that's the sort of basic 0:32:23.840 --> 0:32:28.080 form of a castle, and it serves pretty well. For example, 0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:30.480 during the Norman invasion, after the Norman invasion of England 0:32:30.560 --> 0:32:33.120 ten sixty six, William the conqueror comes over and builds 0:32:33.160 --> 0:32:35.600 castles absolutely everywhere, and of this sort. You know, you 0:32:35.720 --> 0:32:38.480 throw them up pretty quick. What are they fought? Well, 0:32:38.560 --> 0:32:43.000 they're really garrison's. This is where Norman knights are stationed 0:32:43.200 --> 0:32:46.040 and they have a sort of a radial circle of 0:32:46.080 --> 0:32:50.760 a day's ride. That castle can then control the land 0:32:50.760 --> 0:32:53.400 around it because you can send knights out from it 0:32:53.400 --> 0:32:56.200 to wherever you choose. But the heyday of the castle 0:32:56.280 --> 0:32:59.400 of the sort that you're talking about is somewhat later. 0:32:59.600 --> 0:33:03.720 So in British terms, probably the greatest castle builder is 0:33:03.840 --> 0:33:07.320 Edward the first, Edward Longshanks in the Hammer of the Scots. 0:33:07.480 --> 0:33:11.560 So Edwards is king at the turn of the twelve 0:33:11.760 --> 0:33:17.400 into the thirteenth century. He is a crusader, his son 0:33:17.560 --> 0:33:20.680 of the not enormously successful Henry the third and therefore 0:33:20.680 --> 0:33:24.960 a grandson of bad King John, very very talented military 0:33:25.160 --> 0:33:29.520 general commander, and carries out in the British Isles a 0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:35.480 sort of an Arthurian inspired attempt to conquer Wales and 0:33:35.560 --> 0:33:39.280 Scotland and add them formally and permanently to the Kingdom 0:33:39.280 --> 0:33:41.800 of England. Prior to end of the First Reign, the 0:33:41.880 --> 0:33:45.160 main focus of sort of territorial expansion or a trenchment 0:33:45.280 --> 0:33:48.440 or defense from England had been France had been to 0:33:48.480 --> 0:33:53.040 the so holding on to Gascony, but also trying to 0:33:53.080 --> 0:33:55.000 get back the bits that we lost by King John 0:33:55.120 --> 0:33:59.000 Njou main terrain normally whatever whatever, all that's sort of 0:33:59.000 --> 0:34:01.720 finished fired with the Austrain. England still has Gascony, which 0:34:01.720 --> 0:34:05.280 is in southwest around who centered around the city of Bordeaux. 0:34:05.920 --> 0:34:09.719 But really the job of conquering anymore of France by 0:34:09.760 --> 0:34:12.719 that stage is just too expensive and too difficult. So 0:34:12.920 --> 0:34:16.320 Edwards starts to i mean somewhat inspired by the legends 0:34:16.320 --> 0:34:18.360 of Arthur, who'd be the king of the Britons and 0:34:18.400 --> 0:34:21.800 not the English, starts to look to conquer into Wales, 0:34:21.840 --> 0:34:26.480 in Scotland and in Wales, launch this enormous series of campaigns, 0:34:26.920 --> 0:34:30.520 particularly to Northern Wales, Snowdonia, which is the very mountainous 0:34:30.560 --> 0:34:34.880 bit of of North rest world, typically the heartlands of 0:34:34.920 --> 0:34:39.280 the native Welsh kings, extremely inhospitable to reign, very difficult 0:34:39.320 --> 0:34:43.680 to conquer, but Edward decides conquers twelve seventies, twelve eighties, 0:34:43.719 --> 0:34:49.080 twelve nineties. Edwards sends in enormous armies with enormous cause 0:34:49.200 --> 0:34:54.360 of engineers to cut these super highways into northern Wales, 0:34:54.600 --> 0:34:58.120 conquer the land, to get rid of the native princes 0:34:58.280 --> 0:35:05.440 and kings, and builds these vast, vast stone castles at 0:35:05.880 --> 0:35:10.399 unbelievable expense into the mountain sides of North Wales. One 0:35:10.400 --> 0:35:12.480 of the most famous one we featured on Secrets of 0:35:12.520 --> 0:35:15.680 British Castles is Carnavon, which is right up in the 0:35:15.719 --> 0:35:19.560 northwest tip of Wales, just across the Meni straight from 0:35:19.600 --> 0:35:22.239 Anglesea which is the big island of Norlands to the 0:35:22.280 --> 0:35:27.400 Northwest Worlds, and Carnarvon Castle is still an incredible, incredible 0:35:27.400 --> 0:35:31.000 place to visit. Lots of these places were never quite finished, 0:35:31.000 --> 0:35:35.200 but they were all were almost all the architectural brain 0:35:35.400 --> 0:35:39.040 child or an engineering brainchild of a castle builder called 0:35:39.440 --> 0:35:43.440 Master James of St George, who was just, I mean 0:35:43.480 --> 0:35:47.160 the greatest castle builder of his day. And they look 0:35:47.280 --> 0:35:50.360 nothing like a Norman castle. They are these sort of 0:35:50.360 --> 0:35:54.840 often two sets of concentric walls. In the case of Carnarvon, 0:35:54.920 --> 0:35:58.400 these walls are built in alternating horizontal bands of stone, 0:35:58.440 --> 0:36:01.960 which is supposed to resemble the wall Constantinople. You've got 0:36:01.960 --> 0:36:06.960 palatial apartments. You've got these very very large inner whether 0:36:06.960 --> 0:36:10.240 they're not courtyards, I suppose they call them bailey's where 0:36:10.880 --> 0:36:15.120 hundreds of people could congregate. They often have small towns 0:36:15.200 --> 0:36:18.280 erected around them, you know, new towns built to host 0:36:18.280 --> 0:36:21.440 a population to supply the needs of garrison the castle. 0:36:21.640 --> 0:36:24.640 They're the fairy tale castles and they're built all over 0:36:25.360 --> 0:36:28.120 North Wales during the time of Edward the First, and 0:36:28.160 --> 0:36:34.200 the expenses truly, truly, truly phenomenal. They don't actually serve 0:36:35.360 --> 0:36:42.160 for a very long time as effective military outposts because 0:36:42.160 --> 0:36:45.440 the conquest of Wales is sort of but you know, 0:36:45.480 --> 0:36:48.359 it's it's almost completed underhead with the first. I mean, 0:36:48.360 --> 0:36:51.839 there are further conflicts in the fifteenth century Henry fourth 0:36:51.880 --> 0:36:55.360 Fester to find Wales, but but really the job is 0:36:55.440 --> 0:36:59.680 sort of done. And the castles I think quite quickly 0:37:00.000 --> 0:37:03.319 asked from having a primarily a military function to primarily 0:37:03.480 --> 0:37:06.799 an intimidatory function. They're sitting there as a sort of 0:37:06.960 --> 0:37:11.600 a deliberately painful reminder of the might of the English crown, 0:37:12.080 --> 0:37:15.080 and they are symbols of conquest. These days they will 0:37:15.160 --> 0:37:16.640 be torn down and thrown in the sea because they 0:37:16.640 --> 0:37:19.239 will be triggering and they would be very offensive. In fact, 0:37:19.239 --> 0:37:22.160 that that might well happen. So I'm sure somebody will 0:37:22.200 --> 0:37:23.840 come along and well else soon and so these are 0:37:23.920 --> 0:37:25.920 terrible symbols of colonialism, or we need to chuck them 0:37:25.920 --> 0:37:29.120 all in the sea. But in terms of intimidation, the 0:37:29.239 --> 0:37:32.200 Tower of London, I mean, maybe the most famous castle 0:37:32.360 --> 0:37:35.480 in England would have obviously served the same purpose when 0:37:35.480 --> 0:37:39.000 William the Conqueror comes in builds this massive castle in 0:37:39.040 --> 0:37:41.480 the middle of London. Yeah, that's right, I mean the 0:37:41.480 --> 0:37:44.040 White Tower. The original bit of the Tower of London 0:37:44.719 --> 0:37:48.600 very much was designed to overall Londoners. But again, well 0:37:48.760 --> 0:37:50.480 maybe it's a slightly different story with the Tower of 0:37:50.520 --> 0:37:54.840 London because it's soon there's not much need for a 0:37:54.960 --> 0:37:57.600 generation after William the Conquered. There's really not much need 0:37:57.760 --> 0:38:01.560 to have a castle in London to overall the Londoners. 0:38:01.560 --> 0:38:04.240 I mean that the relationship between London and the Crown 0:38:04.640 --> 0:38:09.279 is only occasionally one of a military antagonism in the 0:38:09.320 --> 0:38:11.759 rest of the English Middle Ages. The tar of London 0:38:11.880 --> 0:38:14.000 is a great example of a castle that that quickly 0:38:14.239 --> 0:38:17.640 passes to have a sort of more palatial administrative role. 0:38:17.880 --> 0:38:20.040 With the first of the Royal mint, they're making coins 0:38:20.080 --> 0:38:23.120 in the Tara, London becomes a prison, it becomes a menagerie. 0:38:23.120 --> 0:38:26.080 You know, this is where under Henry the Third, I 0:38:26.120 --> 0:38:28.120 think you have a polar bear that swims in the 0:38:28.120 --> 0:38:30.280 Thames every day that's kept in the Tower of London, 0:38:30.360 --> 0:38:32.200 has a little leash that goes out and catches its 0:38:32.200 --> 0:38:34.359 fish in the Thames, And there are at various times, 0:38:34.400 --> 0:38:37.360 elephants and lions. It's only under the first Duke of 0:38:37.440 --> 0:38:41.480 Wellington nineteenth century that that London zoo moves out of 0:38:41.560 --> 0:38:43.359 the Tower of London, so it forms it's a very 0:38:43.360 --> 0:38:45.520 it's a it's a very odd castle to Tara London. 0:38:45.719 --> 0:38:48.440 It's a wonderful one and rightly the most famous. But 0:38:48.920 --> 0:38:52.280 if you think about it's in its fifteen sixteenth century history, 0:38:52.280 --> 0:38:54.239 what's it most famous as being used for. It's a prison. 0:38:54.239 --> 0:38:56.240 It's where the printers in the tower go. It's where 0:38:56.560 --> 0:38:59.120 you've done an episode, and that it's where Anne Berlin 0:38:59.440 --> 0:39:03.319 is acuted. That becomes it's it's more important function. Yeah, 0:39:03.360 --> 0:39:06.640 I think people probably associated with the Tutors more than 0:39:06.680 --> 0:39:10.120 William the Conqueror. Now, yeah, I think so. I think so. 0:39:10.239 --> 0:39:12.440 I mean, but all of the like all of these 0:39:12.480 --> 0:39:15.240 castles there are there are certain points in history where 0:39:15.680 --> 0:39:18.600 castles are very important for different reasons. If we look 0:39:18.600 --> 0:39:22.520 at the eleventh century, the Normal Conquest, ten sixties, through 0:39:23.200 --> 0:39:27.040 a couple of generations, Yes, castles are there for polonizing 0:39:27.040 --> 0:39:31.640 and subduing the English and their projection of Norman power 0:39:31.760 --> 0:39:34.560 from the other side of the English Channel into England itself. 0:39:34.719 --> 0:39:38.200 And then you have this period in the you're talking 0:39:38.200 --> 0:39:40.040 about in the thirteenth century were underhead with the first 0:39:40.040 --> 0:39:43.560 there's this kind of revival of castle building, mainly on 0:39:43.640 --> 0:39:45.960 the places that the English trying to conquer within Britain. 0:39:46.239 --> 0:39:49.040 And then in the Tudor era we start to see 0:39:49.440 --> 0:39:52.920 castles perform a different function again. You know, they are 0:39:52.960 --> 0:39:56.080 there their palaces, their administrative, their prisons. And then the 0:39:56.120 --> 0:40:00.480 sort of final great throw of castle use in England 0:40:00.560 --> 0:40:03.120 is in the Civil War in the seventeenth century, after 0:40:03.160 --> 0:40:05.799 which that's why many of the castles in England are 0:40:06.040 --> 0:40:09.520 in ruins, because they were slighted by Cromwell's side in 0:40:09.560 --> 0:40:11.760 the Civil War, so they couldn't be used as royal 0:40:12.040 --> 0:40:15.280 fortifications thereafter, and that's why so many castles in englanduties 0:40:15.400 --> 0:40:18.280 rather clamorous ruins in the same way that so many 0:40:18.440 --> 0:40:20.120 or what we can see if so many monasteries in 0:40:20.160 --> 0:40:24.239 England are these haunting Gothic ruins, thank because they were 0:40:24.840 --> 0:40:27.880 left that way deliberately after the Reformation under Henry the 0:40:27.920 --> 0:40:31.000 eight There are very few castles which don't just become 0:40:31.040 --> 0:40:35.560 sort of private, stately homes or just ruins after the 0:40:35.640 --> 0:40:39.360 seventeenth century. But there's one very interesting exception, which is 0:40:39.440 --> 0:40:42.920 Dover Castle on the south coast, and that still had 0:40:42.960 --> 0:40:46.600 a military function in the Second World War. It was 0:40:46.600 --> 0:40:48.799 where if you've seen the film dun Kirk with Mark 0:40:48.880 --> 0:40:53.200 Ryland's very nobly sort of chugging chugging across the channel 0:40:53.239 --> 0:40:55.919 in his little ship, that the command center for dun 0:40:56.000 --> 0:40:58.399 Kirk was Dover Castle. In fact, if you visit over 0:40:58.480 --> 0:41:01.000 Castle when you're in England, you can go down and 0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:03.840 then it has a military or a quasi military function 0:41:03.880 --> 0:41:07.440 after that, because there are nuclear bunkers underneath cliffs underneath 0:41:07.520 --> 0:41:11.560 Dover Castle which were intended and may god still be 0:41:11.600 --> 0:41:14.800 intended for use as regional command center for the southeast 0:41:14.800 --> 0:41:16.920 of England in the event of World War three, fought 0:41:16.920 --> 0:41:20.279 with nuclear weapons. It's pretty weird done that, but that 0:41:20.400 --> 0:41:22.440 that's a very unusual guy. It's kind of one of 0:41:22.440 --> 0:41:24.640 my favorite castles in a way because it's so unusual 0:41:24.719 --> 0:41:28.440 that it retains a serious purpose for a thousand years almost. 0:41:29.080 --> 0:41:32.200 I remember when I was, you know, much younger, the 0:41:32.239 --> 0:41:34.800 first time I went to Edinburgh, went to Edinburgh Castle. 0:41:34.920 --> 0:41:37.960 I was so astonished because up until that point my 0:41:38.080 --> 0:41:42.319 understanding of castles was like Disney Neu Schwinstein castles, you know, 0:41:42.360 --> 0:41:45.920 the fairy tale castles that are sort of the castle 0:41:45.960 --> 0:41:50.560 equivalent of the Arthurian legends. And the Edinburgh Castle, which 0:41:50.640 --> 0:41:53.279 is very much like a small town and feels like 0:41:53.320 --> 0:41:56.759 a military garrison. Yeah, got it. I mean Edinburgh Castle 0:41:56.840 --> 0:41:59.080 is one of the most wonderful places in the whole 0:41:59.080 --> 0:42:01.160 of the whole the UK. And I don't need to 0:42:01.400 --> 0:42:03.479 man explain in Edinburgh to you. He's written a novel 0:42:03.520 --> 0:42:06.239 set at in a very brilliant one. By the way, 0:42:06.840 --> 0:42:10.560 that that too is quite unusual in that part of 0:42:10.600 --> 0:42:13.600 its function as a royal palace is still to have 0:42:14.000 --> 0:42:18.000 this ceremonial military thing and with the tattoo and with 0:42:18.080 --> 0:42:21.040 the bag of the gun, And that's part of its charm, 0:42:21.080 --> 0:42:23.279 I suppose. But part of its charm is also, like 0:42:23.360 --> 0:42:26.239 so many of the best castles, it's the glamor of 0:42:26.280 --> 0:42:30.720 its location, you know, on that craggy volcanic precipice, I suppose, 0:42:30.840 --> 0:42:34.280 overlooking one of the most beautiful cities in northern Europe. 0:42:34.440 --> 0:42:38.480 It's almost unbelievably charming, isn't it a wonderful place? Well, 0:42:38.520 --> 0:42:40.560 I feel like I've kept here for a long time. 0:42:40.600 --> 0:42:43.360 But before I let you go the Middle Age. The 0:42:43.400 --> 0:42:47.400 Middle Ages, which spans a thousand years, is sort of 0:42:47.440 --> 0:42:51.399 an intimidating chunk I think for amateurs to look at. 0:42:51.480 --> 0:42:56.440 Is there a specific period that you think is your favorite? Well, 0:42:56.520 --> 0:42:58.440 I mean, like with my children, I have a different 0:42:58.440 --> 0:43:01.200 favorite depending on which day you asked me. But I'm 0:43:01.280 --> 0:43:03.840 back into the fourteenth century at the moment, which was 0:43:03.880 --> 0:43:06.240 kind of where I begun. My first book was about 0:43:06.239 --> 0:43:08.680 the Peasants Revolt tht eighty one, and the Peasant Rot 0:43:08.840 --> 0:43:11.719 eighty one is a sort of almost like a culminating 0:43:11.760 --> 0:43:15.359 events was what we now call a populist rebellion or 0:43:15.480 --> 0:43:19.040 rising that comes near the end of a century where 0:43:19.040 --> 0:43:22.840 there's been famine followed by animal moraine, followed by the 0:43:22.880 --> 0:43:27.080 Black Death, pandemic, pestilence, followed by war, the Hundred Years War, 0:43:27.360 --> 0:43:29.640 and then you get to the populist rebellion. And so 0:43:29.680 --> 0:43:32.440 the fourteen centuries where I started, and it's where I've 0:43:32.480 --> 0:43:34.480 gone back to. So that the novel Essex Dogs you 0:43:34.560 --> 0:43:38.239 mentioned is set in thirty six towards the beginning of 0:43:38.280 --> 0:43:41.200 the Hundred Years War. And you know, for one reason 0:43:41.239 --> 0:43:44.520 or another, I've just been I've been on a fourteenth century. Tip. 0:43:44.960 --> 0:43:49.759 You know, it's not that cheerful at time. You know, 0:43:49.840 --> 0:43:51.959 you don't go into the fourteenth centuryship a good time, 0:43:53.800 --> 0:43:57.040 but but it is incredibly dramatic, and you see in 0:43:57.080 --> 0:44:02.440 the fourteenth century really what feels like apocalypse coming. But 0:44:02.520 --> 0:44:07.320 you also see the beginnings of you know, literature in 0:44:07.640 --> 0:44:10.600 the vernacular traditions that we recognize today, you know, Chaucer 0:44:10.800 --> 0:44:14.680 or Pacaccio, these sort of father like figures of the 0:44:14.800 --> 0:44:18.799 vernacular literature that became adopted by nation states. It's all 0:44:18.840 --> 0:44:22.120 there in the fourteenth century and the very very early 0:44:22.320 --> 0:44:28.440 stirrings of the Renaissance, the early stirrings of religious protests 0:44:28.440 --> 0:44:31.440 that will coalesce in the Reformation. It's it's the beginning 0:44:31.480 --> 0:44:33.960 of the end of the Middle Ages, and it's a 0:44:34.040 --> 0:44:37.200 time where for a lot of well a lot of people, 0:44:37.200 --> 0:44:40.520 it was the end of days. But it's the closest century, 0:44:40.840 --> 0:44:44.000 maybe barring the early twentieth century, that you've ever had 0:44:44.080 --> 0:44:48.680 too genuine apocalypse. That's interesting. Well, with that, I think 0:44:48.800 --> 0:44:52.000 that's an optimist take place to leave us. Dan, thank 0:44:52.040 --> 0:44:54.279 you so much for taking the time out. Everyone you 0:44:54.280 --> 0:44:59.640 should absolutely read one, two to three of all of 0:44:59.760 --> 0:45:03.000 Dan eleven or twelve books. Before the interview, I asked 0:45:03.080 --> 0:45:05.280 him how many books he had written and he wasn't 0:45:05.320 --> 0:45:09.680 sure there was another one. Thank you, Dana, it was 0:45:09.680 --> 0:45:13.040 so much fun talking to you and everyone preorder his 0:45:13.120 --> 0:45:16.560 novel Essex Dogs if you're interested in that romantic world 0:45:16.680 --> 0:45:20.000 of the fourteenth century. He's a brilliant writer. And remember 0:45:20.120 --> 0:45:24.880 this is the episode and starting now, Noble Blood is 0:45:25.000 --> 0:45:29.040 going weekly, so look for an episode every single Tuesday 0:45:29.200 --> 0:45:32.880 on your podcast app. Dan. Thank you so much, thanks 0:45:33.120 --> 0:45:48.560 and congratulations. Noble Blood is a production of I Heart 0:45:48.680 --> 0:45:52.200 Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Manky. Noble Blood 0:45:52.280 --> 0:45:56.279 is hosted by me Danish Sports. Additional writing and researching 0:45:56.440 --> 0:46:00.720 done by Hannah Johnston, hannah's Wick, Mura Hayward, Nie Sender, 0:46:00.719 --> 0:46:05.319 and Laurie Goodman. The show is produced by Rema al Kali, 0:46:05.400 --> 0:46:10.360 with supervising producer Josh Faine and executive producers Aaron Manky, 0:46:10.640 --> 0:46:14.360 Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from I 0:46:14.480 --> 0:46:18.239 Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:46:18.360 --> 0:46:20.280 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.