WEBVTT - #059 Jason Flom with Steven Barnes 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:03.680 I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:05.360 even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean. 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.960 I was brought up like cops are the good guys. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:11.640 I didn't know what was going to happen, but I 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.760 do know that everything was stacked against me. 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.320 Everything like everything. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:22.360 This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.479 know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.240 with this. How is this possible? 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.600 I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.680 that every human being should do the right thing. And 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:35.559 that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:37.720 four other people, I wasn't going to break anyone to 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:40.640 get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with 0:00:40.680 --> 0:00:42.239 the fact that I break my way out of my 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:42.840 wife's death. 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:46.040 I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.440 I'm guilty until I prove my innocence. 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:52.200 And that's absolutely what happened to me. Our system. Since 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:54.040 I've been out ten years, it's come a little ways, 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:55.480 but it's still broken. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.520 I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me. 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:19.920 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today's 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:25.840 episode is insane. This story will really rattle your perceptions 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:29.840 of criminal justice, and the guy who's here to tell 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:31.319 it is an extraordinary guy. 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:35.360 In two thousand and eight, Stephen Barnes entered an unfamiliar 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:38.800 new world. For two decades, he'd been locked in prison, 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.960 convicted for the murder of sixteen year old Kimberly Simon. 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:44.759 It was a crime he had not committed. A jury 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:48.800 convicted Barnes in nineteen eighty nine, based on mistakes by eyewitnesses, 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:54.480 allying jail house informant and bad science DNA evidence exonerated 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:56.280 Barnes two days before Thanksgiving. 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:59.760 In two thousand and eight, Stephen Barnes, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:00.760 Thank you for having me. 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:04.600 Your case is truly bizarre in that it is one 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:08.280 of the most It's an unreal situation when you were 0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:11.440 convicted with the total absence of any kind of evidence, 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:15.440 and with everything that there was pointing elsewhere. We're going 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:16.720 to get into that later, but I want to go 0:02:16.760 --> 0:02:18.560 back to the beginning because you were really just a 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:21.840 kid when this happened. You grew up in the suburbs 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:22.799 in New York, right. 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:26.120 Yeah, a small town in Utica, New York called Marcy, New. 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:29.840 York, right, And how was your childhood good? 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:33.280 I went to Catholic school for eight years. I went 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:36.800 to another high school for two years. When I was 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:40.359 seventeen years old, my real father passed away. And then 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:41.880 when I was nineteen, I was a year out of 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:44.000 high school. I graduated high school in nineteen eighty four. 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:47.359 Nineteen eighty five was when my nightmare started. 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:51.880 And your nightmare it started and it stopped, and then 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.400 it really took on a new because this was a 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:56.960 cold case. This is a terrible case. This is a 0:02:57.000 --> 0:02:58.040 sixteen year old girl. 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:01.040 Yep. She was brewery raped and murdered, and they found 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:03.760 her off a main road about three miles from my 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:04.600 house where I grew up. 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:05.440 Did you know her? 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:08.320 No, she was three years younger than me. I didn't 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:09.680 never hung out with her, I didn't. 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:10.720 Over never matter. 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:13.320 Nope. And she lived right in the same town I did. 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:15.760 Her parents did, so this must have been big news 0:03:15.760 --> 0:03:17.880 in the town. You don't have a lot of murders. 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:19.720 Up there, No, it was, Yes, it was a big 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.840 thing because my area there, stuff don't happen. 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:24.960 No, that kind of stuff don't happen. And so people 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:27.320 must have been panic. Was there a lot of news 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:28.600 media coverage. 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:31.679 And there was media all over back in eighty five. 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.680 How I got involved is where they found her body. 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:37.640 There was four corners and they had the cops had roadblocks, 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:39.760 and I went through the roadblock and they had eight 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:41.440 by ten pictures of her and they asked, have you 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:44.560 seen this girl? And I said no. And then later 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.280 on that day I went through the roadblock again, but 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:51.160 on my way home. My buddy has a beverage center 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:52.720 and I wanted to get a six pack of beer. 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.600 So I made a you turned through the communience store 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:59.360 and the cop was on the payphone and he saw 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:01.440 me cut through the parking lot and I shot. He 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.200 shot across the street and he pulled me over and 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:06.760 he asked me for my license and my registration, and 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:08.720 he said, why did you turn around? I said, I 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:10.320 wanted to get a six pack and I forgot I. 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.000 Oh, so they thought you turn around to avoid the road. 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:15.800 Yes, And I went through the roadblock early in the 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:16.640 day in the morning. 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:20.279 Your case really highlights the fact that this can happen 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.560 to anyone. Like you're painting such a mundane picture, right, 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:25.320 It's like you're going to your thing. You're going to 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:27.760 tell you get a six pack, make you turn things 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:31.039 that everybody verty much has done, and you're just a 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:34.160 typical kid in a typical town. And then what. 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:37.800 After that incident. It was three days exactly three days 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.560 later they called me out at my mother's house and said, 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:42.840 can you come up to the sherif's apartment answer some questions? 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:44.920 And what were you thinking when you got that call? 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:47.520 Yeah, I was like wow, and I'm like, okay, I 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:49.200 got nothing to high. I'll go up there and answer 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:51.800 wherever they got, you know, little bit. I know. I 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:53.480 was there for twelve and twelve hours. 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:57.000 Did you get a lawyer or anything else? Nothing? 0:04:57.560 --> 0:04:59.800 My first hour there there asked me where I was 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:02.120 on September eighteenth, nineteen eighty five, and I told him 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.919 what I did from when I got up to what 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:09.640 I did that night and well, and then another investigator 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:12.280 came in and he asked me the same questions. And 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:14.719 then another investigator came in and he remember, he looked 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:16.000 me in the eye and he slammed his hand on 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:18.520 the desk and he says, you fin did this, and 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:20.000 you're gonna tell us how he did it? And I 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:22.320 stood up and I said, I effin did not do it, 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.360 and I am trying to cooperate with your people, and 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:27.520 you're trying to blame me. Put this on me. I go, 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:29.800 I had nothing to do with it. I says, can 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:33.120 I call my mother? Yeah, in a minute. In a minute, 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:35.120 I said, can I have a glass of water? They 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:37.720 didn't give me a glass of water. Then I said, 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:39.719 Then after a while, they said, can we search your vehicle? 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.480 I said sure, I had to sign a waiver. Then 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:46.080 they made me take my shirt off. They're looking for scratches. 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:50.840 They kept interrogating me, asked me who my girlfriend was 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:55.400 at the time, what do I like to do? And 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:57.520 they kept going back and forth, and you know, and 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:01.120 they treated me like shit, excuse my langue. Which then 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:03.040 after about ten hours, they said, would you take a 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.480 polygraph test? Yeah? 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:08.480 Hold on, ten hours? After ten hours of irrigation, did 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:09.640 you get any water by now? 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:10.480 Or nothing? 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:11.440 No phone call? 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:13.160 No, no phone never came nothing. 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:14.440 Did you ever ask for a lawyer? 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:18.080 Yes? Nothing, they said, I never asked for nothing. Well 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:19.520 the cop took the stand and he said no. 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:22.520 But so you did ask for a lawyer? That's I mean? 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:24.919 Because yeah, they didn't even at what point did you 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:26.280 realize that you needed a lawyer? 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.760 Because well, after like the first three four hours, I go, 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.000 this is getting really intense here. They really think I 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:34.719 have something to do with this, and uh, I've never 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:36.120 been in trouble in my life. I didn't even have 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:38.120 a parking ticket, you know what I mean. I was 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:41.680 brought up like cops are the good guys. My parents 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:44.320 brought me up. You know, copstantly treat you this. These 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:46.599 guys would treating me like I was already convicted. I was. 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:48.800 I was a scumbag, you know what I mean. 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:51.000 It was like Charles Manson in there. 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:53.279 I mean, I go, wait a minute, I go, I'm 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:55.960 just living my normal life. Like nineteen year old kid, 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:57.800 I just got my year out of high school. I go, 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:00.640 I'm just you know, next thing, you know, like they're 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.040 accusing me a murder rate. Its insane. 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:06.360 Nineteen you're really still you're closer to a child than 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:08.440 an adult. But you don't have the sense to ask 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:10.120 for a lawyer. And this is something I tell people 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:13.200 as often as I can, because it's so important. If 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:14.880 you do get picked up for something you didn't do. 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.960 First of all, remember they're not your friends, right, and 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:21.600 they're not there to help you in that situation. So 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:25.000 you have to protect yourself. And that means ask for 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:26.440 a lawyer as soon as you go in there and 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:29.840 stop talking, yes, because anything you say like this sayd TV, 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:31.360 anything you say can be used against you, and it 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:33.720 will be. And then at that point you have a 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:37.600 very adversarial relationship, but purely adversary relationship. They want you 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:39.920 to confess to something, and which is amazing too. By 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.720 the way, you were interrogated for twelve hours and you 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:45.640 didn't confess, and you were a teenager, so you don't 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:47.720 confess twelve hours go by? 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.520 Now what Well, I took the polygraphs house State. They 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:52.320 threw me in a cop card, took me probably like 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.680 twenty minutes away to a state police barracks, threw me 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:58.440 in a room, gave me in his book. So I 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:00.960 look through. The book tells you how polygraph is, how 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:01.400 it works. 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:02.800 What time is it now? 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:05.640 Oh, it's just started at noon. Now we're almost at 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:09.560 eleven o'clock at night. It's late, you know. So I 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:11.240 didn't know what to I heard of them. I never 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:13.680 took one. So they hook all this stuff up to me. 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:17.240 You know, I'm already nervous wreck. You know, they're trying 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:19.280 to blame me for this for the last ten hours, 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:24.520 harassing the hell out of me. I'm like stressed out, aggravated, nervous, 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.880 you know what. I'm like. This is not this is 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:29.280 not good. You know what I mean, because a polygraph 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.160 test works on your nerves. So they asked me some questions. 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:34.400 I don't even remember half the questions. They asked me, 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:37.000 if somebody paid me to do this? Do you know soon? 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:41.360 And so took the test and I remember it was 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:43.400 about half about an hour, and I remember I was 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:45.679 sitting in a small room and they had a glass 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:47.920 two way of mirror, and the cops were behind there 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.360 watching me. There's this guy that was this guy. He goes, 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:53.160 I'm a professional. I do this for a living. I 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:56.120 polygraph doctors, lawyers, this, everybody. 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:56.280 You know. 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.840 Okay, I understand it's your job. So we did the 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.080 polygraph and then on the way the cops brought me 0:09:02.080 --> 0:09:03.880 back to get my truck at the sheriff's apartment and 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:06.720 they go, I go, so now what they go, You're 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:07.400 free to go home? 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:10.760 Said, oh, so they didn't tell you if you pass 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:11.240 or failed. 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:14.640 No, So I get in my truck. It's all white, 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:18.800 finger printed floor mats are out of it. Whatever, they 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:21.600 destroyed it. So I went home as lived with my 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:24.160 mother still and she goes, where are you being? She 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:27.360 was sleeping, you know, one o'clock in the morning. I go, 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:30.800 you got to get up. I go, we got problems there. 0:09:30.880 --> 0:09:32.400 She goes, what. I go, They're trying to blame me 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:34.839 for this Kim Simon's murder. I says, I was up there. 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:36.520 She goes, where are you bent all day? I said, 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:39.119 I've been up there for a little over twelve hours. 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:41.160 She goes, why don't you call me? I said, I 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:43.360 asked for a phone call. They won't you let me nothing. 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:46.840 So the next day my mother we had a family 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:49.000 attorney friend, so we called him and I told him 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:52.480 the situation, and then he called the sheriff's apartment. He said, well, 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:56.760 they told him the polygraph came back and conclusive. Is 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:59.040 he willing to take another one? And my lawyer that 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:00.960 I had, he goes, no, he's not taking another one. 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:06.440 And it was about six months after that they called 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.400 my house and said, you are to report over to 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:11.440 the hospital to give up blood and hair. 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.199 Six months have gone by, six months after the interrogation, 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:17.000 So after six months, you're in the clear. 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:19.920 Yes, I'm living my life. Yep, I'm going to work. 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:22.040 I've had a very unpleasant experience. 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:26.280 But yeah, I says, okay, you know, so I go 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:28.240 up to me and my mom drive up there to 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:30.240 take vowels of blood and take care from all over 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:33.640 my body, and I went home. For the next three years, 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:38.719 they fouled me, harassed me, called my ex girlfriend up, 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.920 interrogated her, asked her all kinds of stuff, what type 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:43.120 of sex do I like this? 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:43.520 That? 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:47.600 What type of person I am? My awn, drugs do 0:10:47.679 --> 0:10:50.880 I drink? All this, you know, crazy stuff, told her 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.360 parents that she keeps dating me, she's going to be 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.040 the next one, you know, all this crazy stuff, and 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.319 I go really, So it was three and a half 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:04.199 years later after the artificial interrogation. I'm sitting home. It 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.480 was March twenty fifth, nineteen eighty eight. My girlfriend's birthday 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:09.760 was going to be on the twenty ninth. Me, my 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:12.640 little brother, and my girlfriend were sitting at my mother's 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:17.560 house hanging out watching Back in them days, MTV was good, 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:23.200 you know, with the videos. So we're watching it, having 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.400 a couple of pops and my brother. You know, we're talking. 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:26.880 All of a sudden, there's a knock on the door. 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:30.839 There's the two investigators that interrogated me. They go, hi, Steve, 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:32.559 can do you remember us? I said, oh, can I 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:34.559 forget your ugly mug? You know what I mean? You 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:37.240 guys might my life in mesable win. I go, what 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.040 do you want now? They said, A couple people come 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:42.599 forward and you're under the rest, So step out of 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:46.679 the house. My brother's flipping out, my girlfriend's crying. I'm 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.679 flipping out. They cuffed me, stuffed me in the car. 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:52.680 I'm cursing all the way to the from my mother's 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:55.040 house to the sheriff's apartment's probably a ten minute drive. 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:59.559 They had about twelve police cars. All the freaking guys 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:01.760 are out, guns drawn. You know, it's like, what the 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.240 hell's going on? I'm like, this is insane. Bring me 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:07.959 up to the sheriff's department and the media is there, 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.120 and they filmed the cameras getting me out of the 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:13.319 cop car, and next day in the papers, you know, 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.720 we got the real murderer of this. So I was 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.280 in the county jail for about two months and They 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:23.360 finally gave me bail one hundred thousands, so my mother 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:27.600 put up her house and I had a basic lawyer, 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:31.360 but he wasn't too good. My mother hired a prominent 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:33.839 lawyer in the here. He was noted for. He's been 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:38.200 around a long time. And I was out on bail 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:40.920 about a year. I couldn't go anywhere I had. I 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:42.720 was like an house arrest. I didn't wear a bracelet, 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.200 but I just went to work and came home. I 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:46.920 couldn't go anywhere, couldn't go to bars. 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:49.240 You were probably infamous at this point, right, I mean 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:51.240 you'd already been convicted in the media pretty much. 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:54.199 Oh yeah. They already had me, you know, they had 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:56.120 me sealed and deal that was you know, yeah, I 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:59.480 mean if you oh yeah, they already said yeah, yeah. 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:00.840 Did you you would get harassed? 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:02.440 Oh yeah, I would go. I would go to the 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:05.320 store with my mother and the people there's that scumbag Barns, 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:09.360 that murder rapist, you know, stuff like that. So I 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:12.160 just ignored it. And the cops used to follow me around, 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:14.120 you know. And my girlfriend was going to the college 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:16.560 not far from my house, and they would sit in 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:18.160 the parking lot. I would go down and visit her, 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:19.880 and they would sit in the parking lot. And when 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:21.880 I was out in bail, they'd follow me around. And 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:23.720 one day they were in behind me and I stopped 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:25.560 my truck and got out, and I says, what's your round? 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:28.440 And I go, you can follow me everywhere. Me and 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.040 my girlfriend went skiing. The officer was up on the 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:34.280 mountain skiing right behind us. They're followed me all around 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:35.559 when I'm out on bail, and I'm like, man, I 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:37.800 can't even go anywhere, you know what I mean. And 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:39.360 then I wanted to go to New York State Fair 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:41.040 and I was out on bail, and he said I 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:43.000 had to go to the chudge. You leave the county 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:46.000 and I go to State Fair and I run into 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:48.240 the investigators there. I go, do you guys think nothing 0:13:48.240 --> 0:14:03.400 better to do? And to follow me around? And so 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:05.600 that went on for almost a year, and then my 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:10.439 trial started in May of nineteen eighty nine and picked 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:14.360 my jury. In my trial, I went through about seven 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:16.480 hundred people to get a juror, and my juror was 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.520 mostly elderly people. I don't think they every won a 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:21.480 lot of people back in the days. They didn't really 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:24.240 want to be on a jury. They they think they 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:26.560 paid you like five or eight bucks and jury duty. 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:34.200 And my trial was all circumstantial. Maybe perhaps or could 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:38.280 have beens. My three main things in my trial was 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:40.680 when I was in a county jail for a few months, 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:44.680 we call him jailhouse rats. There was this guy locked 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.520 on the gallery with me. I never spoke to him. 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:50.040 I knew who he was because when I was in 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:52.160 a county I didn't really talk to any guys, you know. 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:55.880 I stayed to myself, didn't talk my case with nobody. 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:59.360 And this guy was career criminal, was facing three to 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:03.840 nine years state for stolen credit cards, bad checks, and 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:06.840 he after I got on a bail, the investigators went 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.120 and interviewed everybody on my tier and this guy said 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.760 that I was talking to him, and I admitted to 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:14.680 him that I said that I killed this girl. 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:15.320 Classic. 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:19.800 Yes, the conversation never happened. He got a time cut. 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.200 He ended up doing three or four months in the 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:24.840 county jail and got sprung. He never got a street 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:26.080 to nine, and it was supposed. 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:27.800 To get because he did them a big favor. 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:32.760 Yes, he lied. And then when they searched my truck, 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:37.120 this is what they call junk science. They said there 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:39.280 was a similar gene imprint on the side of my 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:41.800 truck that was similar to her type of Back in 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:45.600 the eighties there was Jordash jeans and the style of 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:47.520 the jeans was imprinted on the side of my truck. 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:49.520 They said it was similar to hers. Well, they had 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:53.320 this guy from the gene company. He testify that with 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:55.920 that type of pattern, that type of gene and that 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.440 time frame that in that year, they narrowed it down 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.120 to three thoud and pairs of jeans with that same pattern. 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.520 So anybody saved my truck was parking the parking lot 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:08.280 and somebody was at the grocery store, bumped in the 0:16:08.280 --> 0:16:11.720 side of my truck. Had that saved what's today's a 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:14.120 They wouldn't use that in trial. They would throw that 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:15.520 right out. You know, it's called junk. 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:17.840 It's total junk, and it's ridiculous. I mean, I remember 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:19.640 back then jordan Ash is one of the most popular 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:20.240 type of jeans. 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:22.160 Yeah, and it was. They had the guy there and 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:24.040 he was talking about the pattern he had all blown 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:26.760 up and it was so and then when I when 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:29.720 I let him search my truck, they found of hair 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:31.440 and they said it was similar to hers. 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:33.920 It was similar to hers. It was blonde, but your 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.840 sister was blonde, Yes, right, I mean so like, yeah, 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.040 that's amazing. It was similar to hers. That's great. 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.400 Now this day and age, there's no such thing as 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.960 a similar hair. You know, it's your hair, you know's 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:48.280 We're in a lot more technology now. But and then 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:50.760 they took dirt from under my rear rolls in my truck. 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:53.360 Yeah, this is where it really blows my mind that 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:53.880 they sat. 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:56.040 The dirt was similar at the crime scene. 0:16:56.440 --> 0:17:00.960 The dirt was similar. Oh my god, dirt was. 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:03.040 When my lawyer talked to somebody in my whole county, 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:06.600 like ninety five percent of the whole county has sand 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.280 in the dirt, and they asked me, where did you 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:11.680 get the dirt on you? And behind my mother's house, 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:13.880 we used to have a little spot we hung out 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:15.600 and we drove our trucks back. There was a little 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:19.000 hangout for us neighborroad kids. And I didn't wash my 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:21.560 truck on a regular basis, and I end dirt. So 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.520 they had these jars dirt like it was like a 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:25.040 big thing. 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.360 I'm like, So the three types of circumstantial evidence, which 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:32.800 each one is ridiculous. Right, Yes, were a gene imprint, which, 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.000 by the way, how good of an imprint can a 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:37.400 gene make on a car? Let's just reflect on days 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:41.359 and days or weeks later. There's a gene imprint. That's ridiculous. Okay, 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:46.040 that's number one. You had the hair which was quote 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:50.840 unquote similar to the victims, right, A lot of people 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:54.600 have similar hair. It was blonde, right, Okay, so that's 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:58.159 not really I mean, that's pretty crazy. And then you 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:02.359 have dirt, right, Dirt is dirt, right, I mean I'm 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:05.560 not a horticulturalist, but no. And the idea that you're 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:08.440 going to convict somebody and sentenced them to twenty five 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:09.800 years to life. 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:12.720 And a Jared dirt it's similar. It don't make sense. 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:15.919 And then let's talk Steven also about the evidence in 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:21.200 this case. There was, of call it overwhelming evidence of innocence, right, 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:24.840 And let's talk about those scales of justice and the 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:27.600 evidence that tipped in your favor and why this should 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:31.280 have been really a relatively simple verdict for the jury 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:34.000 to reach. Right. There was there was an alibi, right, 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:34.960