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Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't

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Speaker 1: even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: I was brought up like cops are the good guys.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I

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Speaker 2: do know that everything was stacked against me.

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Speaker 3: Everything like everything.

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Speaker 1: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I

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Speaker 1: know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with this. How is this possible?

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Speaker 3: I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing

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Speaker 3: that every human being should do the right thing. And

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Speaker 3: that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with

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Speaker 3: four other people, I wasn't going to break anyone to

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Speaker 3: get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with

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Speaker 3: the fact that I break my way out of my

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Speaker 3: wife's death.

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Speaker 1: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty.

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Speaker 2: I'm guilty until I prove my innocence.

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Speaker 1: And that's absolutely what happened to me. Our system. Since

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Speaker 1: I've been out ten years, it's come a little ways,

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Speaker 1: but it's still broken.

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Speaker 3: I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me.

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Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today's

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Speaker 4: episode is insane. This story will really rattle your perceptions

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Speaker 4: of criminal justice, and the guy who's here to tell

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Speaker 4: it is an extraordinary guy.

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Speaker 2: In two thousand and eight, Stephen Barnes entered an unfamiliar

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Speaker 2: new world. For two decades, he'd been locked in prison,

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Speaker 2: convicted for the murder of sixteen year old Kimberly Simon.

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Speaker 2: It was a crime he had not committed. A jury

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Speaker 2: convicted Barnes in nineteen eighty nine, based on mistakes by eyewitnesses,

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Speaker 2: allying jail house informant and bad science DNA evidence exonerated

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Speaker 2: Barnes two days before Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 4: In two thousand and eight, Stephen Barnes, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 4: Your case is truly bizarre in that it is one

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Speaker 4: of the most It's an unreal situation when you were

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Speaker 4: convicted with the total absence of any kind of evidence,

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Speaker 4: and with everything that there was pointing elsewhere. We're going

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Speaker 4: to get into that later, but I want to go

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Speaker 4: back to the beginning because you were really just a

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Speaker 4: kid when this happened. You grew up in the suburbs

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Speaker 4: in New York, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a small town in Utica, New York called Marcy, New.

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Speaker 4: York, right, And how was your childhood good?

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Speaker 1: I went to Catholic school for eight years. I went

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Speaker 1: to another high school for two years. When I was

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Speaker 1: seventeen years old, my real father passed away. And then

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Speaker 1: when I was nineteen, I was a year out of

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Speaker 1: high school. I graduated high school in nineteen eighty four.

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Speaker 1: Nineteen eighty five was when my nightmare started.

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Speaker 4: And your nightmare it started and it stopped, and then

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Speaker 4: it really took on a new because this was a

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Speaker 4: cold case. This is a terrible case. This is a

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Speaker 4: sixteen year old girl.

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Speaker 1: Yep. She was brewery raped and murdered, and they found

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Speaker 1: her off a main road about three miles from my

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Speaker 1: house where I grew up.

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Speaker 4: Did you know her?

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Speaker 1: No, she was three years younger than me. I didn't

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Speaker 1: never hung out with her, I didn't.

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Speaker 4: Over never matter.

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Speaker 1: Nope. And she lived right in the same town I did.

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Speaker 4: Her parents did, so this must have been big news

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Speaker 4: in the town. You don't have a lot of murders.

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Speaker 1: Up there, No, it was, Yes, it was a big

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Speaker 1: thing because my area there, stuff don't happen.

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Speaker 4: No, that kind of stuff don't happen. And so people

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Speaker 4: must have been panic. Was there a lot of news

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Speaker 4: media coverage.

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Speaker 1: And there was media all over back in eighty five.

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Speaker 1: How I got involved is where they found her body.

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Speaker 1: There was four corners and they had the cops had roadblocks,

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Speaker 1: and I went through the roadblock and they had eight

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Speaker 1: by ten pictures of her and they asked, have you

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Speaker 1: seen this girl? And I said no. And then later

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Speaker 1: on that day I went through the roadblock again, but

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Speaker 1: on my way home. My buddy has a beverage center

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to get a six pack of beer.

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Speaker 1: So I made a you turned through the communience store

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Speaker 1: and the cop was on the payphone and he saw

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Speaker 1: me cut through the parking lot and I shot. He

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Speaker 1: shot across the street and he pulled me over and

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Speaker 1: he asked me for my license and my registration, and

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Speaker 1: he said, why did you turn around? I said, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to get a six pack and I forgot I.

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Speaker 4: Oh, so they thought you turn around to avoid the road.

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Speaker 1: Yes, And I went through the roadblock early in the

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Speaker 1: day in the morning.

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Speaker 4: Your case really highlights the fact that this can happen

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Speaker 4: to anyone. Like you're painting such a mundane picture, right,

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Speaker 4: It's like you're going to your thing. You're going to

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Speaker 4: tell you get a six pack, make you turn things

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Speaker 4: that everybody verty much has done, and you're just a

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Speaker 4: typical kid in a typical town. And then what.

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Speaker 1: After that incident. It was three days exactly three days

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Speaker 1: later they called me out at my mother's house and said,

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Speaker 1: can you come up to the sherif's apartment answer some questions?

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Speaker 4: And what were you thinking when you got that call?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was like wow, and I'm like, okay, I

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Speaker 1: got nothing to high. I'll go up there and answer

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Speaker 1: wherever they got, you know, little bit. I know. I

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Speaker 1: was there for twelve and twelve hours.

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Speaker 4: Did you get a lawyer or anything else? Nothing?

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Speaker 1: My first hour there there asked me where I was

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Speaker 1: on September eighteenth, nineteen eighty five, and I told him

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Speaker 1: what I did from when I got up to what

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Speaker 1: I did that night and well, and then another investigator

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Speaker 1: came in and he asked me the same questions. And

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Speaker 1: then another investigator came in and he remember, he looked

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Speaker 1: me in the eye and he slammed his hand on

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Speaker 1: the desk and he says, you fin did this, and

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Speaker 1: you're gonna tell us how he did it? And I

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Speaker 1: stood up and I said, I effin did not do it,

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Speaker 1: and I am trying to cooperate with your people, and

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Speaker 1: you're trying to blame me. Put this on me. I go,

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Speaker 1: I had nothing to do with it. I says, can

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Speaker 1: I call my mother? Yeah, in a minute. In a minute,

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Speaker 1: I said, can I have a glass of water? They

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Speaker 1: didn't give me a glass of water. Then I said,

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Speaker 1: Then after a while, they said, can we search your vehicle?

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Speaker 1: I said sure, I had to sign a waiver. Then

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Speaker 1: they made me take my shirt off. They're looking for scratches.

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Speaker 1: They kept interrogating me, asked me who my girlfriend was

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Speaker 1: at the time, what do I like to do? And

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Speaker 1: they kept going back and forth, and you know, and

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Speaker 1: they treated me like shit, excuse my langue. Which then

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Speaker 1: after about ten hours, they said, would you take a

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Speaker 1: polygraph test? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Hold on, ten hours? After ten hours of irrigation, did

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Speaker 4: you get any water by now?

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Speaker 1: Or nothing?

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Speaker 4: No phone call?

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Speaker 1: No, no phone never came nothing.

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Speaker 4: Did you ever ask for a lawyer?

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Speaker 1: Yes? Nothing, they said, I never asked for nothing. Well

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Speaker 1: the cop took the stand and he said no.

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Speaker 4: But so you did ask for a lawyer? That's I mean?

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Speaker 4: Because yeah, they didn't even at what point did you

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Speaker 4: realize that you needed a lawyer?

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Speaker 1: Because well, after like the first three four hours, I go,

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Speaker 1: this is getting really intense here. They really think I

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Speaker 1: have something to do with this, and uh, I've never

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Speaker 1: been in trouble in my life. I didn't even have

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Speaker 1: a parking ticket, you know what I mean. I was

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Speaker 1: brought up like cops are the good guys. My parents

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Speaker 1: brought me up. You know, copstantly treat you this. These

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Speaker 1: guys would treating me like I was already convicted. I was.

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Speaker 1: I was a scumbag, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: It was like Charles Manson in there.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I go, wait a minute, I go, I'm

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Speaker 1: just living my normal life. Like nineteen year old kid,

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Speaker 1: I just got my year out of high school. I go,

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Speaker 1: I'm just you know, next thing, you know, like they're

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Speaker 1: accusing me a murder rate. Its insane.

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Speaker 4: Nineteen you're really still you're closer to a child than

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Speaker 4: an adult. But you don't have the sense to ask

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Speaker 4: for a lawyer. And this is something I tell people

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Speaker 4: as often as I can, because it's so important. If

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Speaker 4: you do get picked up for something you didn't do.

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Speaker 4: First of all, remember they're not your friends, right, and

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Speaker 4: they're not there to help you in that situation. So

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Speaker 4: you have to protect yourself. And that means ask for

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Speaker 4: a lawyer as soon as you go in there and

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Speaker 4: stop talking, yes, because anything you say like this sayd TV,

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Speaker 4: anything you say can be used against you, and it

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Speaker 4: will be. And then at that point you have a

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Speaker 4: very adversarial relationship, but purely adversary relationship. They want you

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Speaker 4: to confess to something, and which is amazing too. By

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Speaker 4: the way, you were interrogated for twelve hours and you

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Speaker 4: didn't confess, and you were a teenager, so you don't

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Speaker 4: confess twelve hours go by?

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Speaker 1: Now what Well, I took the polygraphs house State. They

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Speaker 1: threw me in a cop card, took me probably like

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Speaker 1: twenty minutes away to a state police barracks, threw me

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Speaker 1: in a room, gave me in his book. So I

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Speaker 1: look through. The book tells you how polygraph is, how

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Speaker 1: it works.

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Speaker 4: What time is it now?

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's just started at noon. Now we're almost at

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Speaker 1: eleven o'clock at night. It's late, you know. So I

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Speaker 1: didn't know what to I heard of them. I never

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Speaker 1: took one. So they hook all this stuff up to me.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm already nervous wreck. You know, they're trying

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Speaker 1: to blame me for this for the last ten hours,

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Speaker 1: harassing the hell out of me. I'm like stressed out, aggravated, nervous,

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Speaker 1: you know what. I'm like. This is not this is

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Speaker 1: not good. You know what I mean, because a polygraph

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Speaker 1: test works on your nerves. So they asked me some questions.

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Speaker 1: I don't even remember half the questions. They asked me,

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Speaker 1: if somebody paid me to do this? Do you know soon?

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Speaker 1: And so took the test and I remember it was

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Speaker 1: about half about an hour, and I remember I was

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Speaker 1: sitting in a small room and they had a glass

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Speaker 1: two way of mirror, and the cops were behind there

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Speaker 1: watching me. There's this guy that was this guy. He goes,

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Speaker 1: I'm a professional. I do this for a living. I

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Speaker 1: polygraph doctors, lawyers, this, everybody.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I understand it's your job. So we did the

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Speaker 1: polygraph and then on the way the cops brought me

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Speaker 1: back to get my truck at the sheriff's apartment and

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Speaker 1: they go, I go, so now what they go, You're

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Speaker 1: free to go home?

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Speaker 4: Said, oh, so they didn't tell you if you pass

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Speaker 4: or failed.

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Speaker 1: No, So I get in my truck. It's all white,

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Speaker 1: finger printed floor mats are out of it. Whatever, they

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Speaker 1: destroyed it. So I went home as lived with my

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Speaker 1: mother still and she goes, where are you being? She

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Speaker 1: was sleeping, you know, one o'clock in the morning. I go,

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Speaker 1: you got to get up. I go, we got problems there.

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Speaker 1: She goes, what. I go, They're trying to blame me

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Speaker 1: for this Kim Simon's murder. I says, I was up there.

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Speaker 1: She goes, where are you bent all day? I said,

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Speaker 1: I've been up there for a little over twelve hours.

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Speaker 1: She goes, why don't you call me? I said, I

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Speaker 1: asked for a phone call. They won't you let me nothing.

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Speaker 1: So the next day my mother we had a family

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Speaker 1: attorney friend, so we called him and I told him

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Speaker 1: the situation, and then he called the sheriff's apartment. He said, well,

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Speaker 1: they told him the polygraph came back and conclusive. Is

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Speaker 1: he willing to take another one? And my lawyer that

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Speaker 1: I had, he goes, no, he's not taking another one.

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Speaker 1: And it was about six months after that they called

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Speaker 1: my house and said, you are to report over to

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Speaker 1: the hospital to give up blood and hair.

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Speaker 4: Six months have gone by, six months after the interrogation,

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Speaker 4: So after six months, you're in the clear.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I'm living my life. Yep, I'm going to work.

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Speaker 4: I've had a very unpleasant experience.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I says, okay, you know, so I go

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Speaker 1: up to me and my mom drive up there to

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Speaker 1: take vowels of blood and take care from all over

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Speaker 1: my body, and I went home. For the next three years,

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Speaker 1: they fouled me, harassed me, called my ex girlfriend up,

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Speaker 1: interrogated her, asked her all kinds of stuff, what type

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Speaker 1: of sex do I like this?

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Speaker 4: That?

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Speaker 1: What type of person I am? My awn, drugs do

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Speaker 1: I drink? All this, you know, crazy stuff, told her

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Speaker 1: parents that she keeps dating me, she's going to be

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Speaker 1: the next one, you know, all this crazy stuff, and

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Speaker 1: I go really, So it was three and a half

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Speaker 1: years later after the artificial interrogation. I'm sitting home. It

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Speaker 1: was March twenty fifth, nineteen eighty eight. My girlfriend's birthday

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Speaker 1: was going to be on the twenty ninth. Me, my

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Speaker 1: little brother, and my girlfriend were sitting at my mother's

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Speaker 1: house hanging out watching Back in them days, MTV was good,

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Speaker 1: you know, with the videos. So we're watching it, having

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Speaker 1: a couple of pops and my brother. You know, we're talking.

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Speaker 1: All of a sudden, there's a knock on the door.

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Speaker 1: There's the two investigators that interrogated me. They go, hi, Steve,

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Speaker 1: can do you remember us? I said, oh, can I

255
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Speaker 1: forget your ugly mug? You know what I mean? You

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Speaker 1: guys might my life in mesable win. I go, what

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Speaker 1: do you want now? They said, A couple people come

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Speaker 1: forward and you're under the rest, So step out of

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Speaker 1: the house. My brother's flipping out, my girlfriend's crying. I'm

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Speaker 1: flipping out. They cuffed me, stuffed me in the car.

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Speaker 1: I'm cursing all the way to the from my mother's

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Speaker 1: house to the sheriff's apartment's probably a ten minute drive.

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Speaker 1: They had about twelve police cars. All the freaking guys

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Speaker 1: are out, guns drawn. You know, it's like, what the

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Speaker 1: hell's going on? I'm like, this is insane. Bring me

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Speaker 1: up to the sheriff's department and the media is there,

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Speaker 1: and they filmed the cameras getting me out of the

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Speaker 1: cop car, and next day in the papers, you know,

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Speaker 1: we got the real murderer of this. So I was

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Speaker 1: in the county jail for about two months and They

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Speaker 1: finally gave me bail one hundred thousands, so my mother

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Speaker 1: put up her house and I had a basic lawyer,

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Speaker 1: but he wasn't too good. My mother hired a prominent

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Speaker 1: lawyer in the here. He was noted for. He's been

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Speaker 1: around a long time. And I was out on bail

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Speaker 1: about a year. I couldn't go anywhere I had. I

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Speaker 1: was like an house arrest. I didn't wear a bracelet,

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Speaker 1: but I just went to work and came home. I

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Speaker 1: couldn't go anywhere, couldn't go to bars.

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Speaker 4: You were probably infamous at this point, right, I mean

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Speaker 4: you'd already been convicted in the media pretty much.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah. They already had me, you know, they had

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Speaker 1: me sealed and deal that was you know, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean if you oh yeah, they already said yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 4: Did you you would get harassed?

286
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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I would go. I would go to the

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Speaker 1: store with my mother and the people there's that scumbag Barns,

288
00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,360
Speaker 1: that murder rapist, you know, stuff like that. So I

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Speaker 1: just ignored it. And the cops used to follow me around,

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Speaker 1: you know. And my girlfriend was going to the college

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Speaker 1: not far from my house, and they would sit in

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Speaker 1: the parking lot. I would go down and visit her,

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Speaker 1: and they would sit in the parking lot. And when

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Speaker 1: I was out in bail, they'd follow me around. And

295
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Speaker 1: one day they were in behind me and I stopped

296
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Speaker 1: my truck and got out, and I says, what's your round?

297
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Speaker 1: And I go, you can follow me everywhere. Me and

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Speaker 1: my girlfriend went skiing. The officer was up on the

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Speaker 1: mountain skiing right behind us. They're followed me all around

300
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Speaker 1: when I'm out on bail, and I'm like, man, I

301
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Speaker 1: can't even go anywhere, you know what I mean. And

302
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Speaker 1: then I wanted to go to New York State Fair

303
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Speaker 1: and I was out on bail, and he said I

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Speaker 1: had to go to the chudge. You leave the county

305
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Speaker 1: and I go to State Fair and I run into

306
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Speaker 1: the investigators there. I go, do you guys think nothing

307
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Speaker 1: better to do? And to follow me around? And so

308
00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:05,600
Speaker 1: that went on for almost a year, and then my

309
00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:10,439
Speaker 1: trial started in May of nineteen eighty nine and picked

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Speaker 1: my jury. In my trial, I went through about seven

311
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Speaker 1: hundred people to get a juror, and my juror was

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Speaker 1: mostly elderly people. I don't think they every won a

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Speaker 1: lot of people back in the days. They didn't really

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Speaker 1: want to be on a jury. They they think they

315
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,560
Speaker 1: paid you like five or eight bucks and jury duty.

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Speaker 1: And my trial was all circumstantial. Maybe perhaps or could

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Speaker 1: have beens. My three main things in my trial was

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Speaker 1: when I was in a county jail for a few months,

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Speaker 1: we call him jailhouse rats. There was this guy locked

320
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Speaker 1: on the gallery with me. I never spoke to him.

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Speaker 1: I knew who he was because when I was in

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00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,160
Speaker 1: a county I didn't really talk to any guys, you know.

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Speaker 1: I stayed to myself, didn't talk my case with nobody.

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Speaker 1: And this guy was career criminal, was facing three to

325
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Speaker 1: nine years state for stolen credit cards, bad checks, and

326
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:06,840
Speaker 1: he after I got on a bail, the investigators went

327
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,120
Speaker 1: and interviewed everybody on my tier and this guy said

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Speaker 1: that I was talking to him, and I admitted to

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Speaker 1: him that I said that I killed this girl.

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Speaker 4: Classic.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the conversation never happened. He got a time cut.

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Speaker 1: He ended up doing three or four months in the

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Speaker 1: county jail and got sprung. He never got a street

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Speaker 1: to nine, and it was supposed.

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Speaker 4: To get because he did them a big favor.

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Speaker 1: Yes, he lied. And then when they searched my truck,

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00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,120
Speaker 1: this is what they call junk science. They said there

338
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Speaker 1: was a similar gene imprint on the side of my

339
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,800
Speaker 1: truck that was similar to her type of Back in

340
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,600
Speaker 1: the eighties there was Jordash jeans and the style of

341
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Speaker 1: the jeans was imprinted on the side of my truck.

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Speaker 1: They said it was similar to hers. Well, they had

343
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Speaker 1: this guy from the gene company. He testify that with

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00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,920
Speaker 1: that type of pattern, that type of gene and that

345
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,440
Speaker 1: time frame that in that year, they narrowed it down

346
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,120
Speaker 1: to three thoud and pairs of jeans with that same pattern.

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00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,520
Speaker 1: So anybody saved my truck was parking the parking lot

348
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Speaker 1: and somebody was at the grocery store, bumped in the

349
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,720
Speaker 1: side of my truck. Had that saved what's today's a

350
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Speaker 1: They wouldn't use that in trial. They would throw that

351
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:15,520
Speaker 1: right out. You know, it's called junk.

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00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:17,840
Speaker 4: It's total junk, and it's ridiculous. I mean, I remember

353
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:19,640
Speaker 4: back then jordan Ash is one of the most popular

354
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Speaker 4: type of jeans.

355
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was. They had the guy there and

356
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,040
Speaker 1: he was talking about the pattern he had all blown

357
00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,760
Speaker 1: up and it was so and then when I when

358
00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,720
Speaker 1: I let him search my truck, they found of hair

359
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:31,440
Speaker 1: and they said it was similar to hers.

360
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:33,920
Speaker 4: It was similar to hers. It was blonde, but your

361
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,840
Speaker 4: sister was blonde, Yes, right, I mean so like, yeah,

362
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,040
Speaker 4: that's amazing. It was similar to hers. That's great.

363
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,400
Speaker 1: Now this day and age, there's no such thing as

364
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,960
Speaker 1: a similar hair. You know, it's your hair, you know's

365
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,280
Speaker 1: We're in a lot more technology now. But and then

366
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,760
Speaker 1: they took dirt from under my rear rolls in my truck.

367
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Speaker 4: Yeah, this is where it really blows my mind that

368
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:53,880
Speaker 4: they sat.

369
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,040
Speaker 1: The dirt was similar at the crime scene.

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00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,960
Speaker 4: The dirt was similar. Oh my god, dirt was.

371
00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,040
Speaker 1: When my lawyer talked to somebody in my whole county,

372
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,600
Speaker 1: like ninety five percent of the whole county has sand

373
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,280
Speaker 1: in the dirt, and they asked me, where did you

374
00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,680
Speaker 1: get the dirt on you? And behind my mother's house,

375
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:13,880
Speaker 1: we used to have a little spot we hung out

376
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Speaker 1: and we drove our trucks back. There was a little

377
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,000
Speaker 1: hangout for us neighborroad kids. And I didn't wash my

378
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:21,560
Speaker 1: truck on a regular basis, and I end dirt. So

379
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,520
Speaker 1: they had these jars dirt like it was like a

380
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:25,040
Speaker 1: big thing.

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00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,360
Speaker 4: I'm like, So the three types of circumstantial evidence, which

382
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,800
Speaker 4: each one is ridiculous. Right, Yes, were a gene imprint, which,

383
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,000
Speaker 4: by the way, how good of an imprint can a

384
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,400
Speaker 4: gene make on a car? Let's just reflect on days

385
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,359
Speaker 4: and days or weeks later. There's a gene imprint. That's ridiculous. Okay,

386
00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:46,040
Speaker 4: that's number one. You had the hair which was quote

387
00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:50,840
Speaker 4: unquote similar to the victims, right, A lot of people

388
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,600
Speaker 4: have similar hair. It was blonde, right, Okay, so that's

389
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:58,159
Speaker 4: not really I mean, that's pretty crazy. And then you

390
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,359
Speaker 4: have dirt, right, Dirt is dirt, right, I mean I'm

391
00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,560
Speaker 4: not a horticulturalist, but no. And the idea that you're

392
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,440
Speaker 4: going to convict somebody and sentenced them to twenty five

393
00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:09,800
Speaker 4: years to life.

394
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,720
Speaker 1: And a Jared dirt it's similar. It don't make sense.

395
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,919
Speaker 4: And then let's talk Steven also about the evidence in

396
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:21,200
Speaker 4: this case. There was, of call it overwhelming evidence of innocence, right,

397
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,840
Speaker 4: And let's talk about those scales of justice and the

398
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,600
Speaker 4: evidence that tipped in your favor and why this should

399
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,280
Speaker 4: have been really a relatively simple verdict for the jury

400
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,000
Speaker 4: to reach. Right. There was there was an alibi, right,

401
00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:34,960
Speaker 4: So I was at.

402
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,000
Speaker 1: A bowling alley had at night and I had my

403
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,960
Speaker 1: bone sheet, I had my buddy I was with. We

404
00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,840
Speaker 1: left the bowling alley, went to a party. He testified

405
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,359
Speaker 1: his parents owned the bowling alley. They testified people that

406
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,560
Speaker 1: were at the bowling alley in the bar with me

407
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,239
Speaker 1: all testified. There was one guy at the bar that

408
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:54,919
Speaker 1: was supposed to be a friend of mine, but he

409
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,600
Speaker 1: was friends with the victim's family, and he said that

410
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,439
Speaker 1: I Will wasn't at the bar at the time. I said, So,

411
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,040
Speaker 1: you got forty something people saying I'm there at this time,

412
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,359
Speaker 1: and they got one guy saying that I wasn't there

413
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,560
Speaker 1: at that time at six o'clock, five thirty quarter six.

414
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,200
Speaker 1: He said, I was there later at seven. And it's

415
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,160
Speaker 1: hard for me to believe that a jury would listen

416
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,000
Speaker 1: to one guy over forty people that had the same story.

417
00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 4: But that's not all. Then you also had the fact

418
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,480
Speaker 4: that there was no physical evidence connecting you to the crime.

419
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,760
Speaker 4: And then there was the tire tracks. Right, your car

420
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,639
Speaker 4: doesn't match, you know, entire tracks. Now we're getting to

421
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,240
Speaker 4: something that has an actual basis in science. Right, these

422
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,120
Speaker 4: fires are a certain size. Yes, you can't change that size.

423
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,120
Speaker 4: You didn't change the tires on your car that night?

424
00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:42,879
Speaker 4: Did you no kidding on me?

425
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:44,760
Speaker 1: I was a truck, you know, I had a pretty

426
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,960
Speaker 1: good sized tread on it. And they said in my

427
00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,240
Speaker 1: trial that a lot of the tire tracks were from

428
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:54,560
Speaker 1: the cop cars. And my layer said, well, why didn't

429
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,920
Speaker 1: shoot because they never took castings in nothing, And that's

430
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,399
Speaker 1: what they said. They didn't take casting because there was

431
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,439
Speaker 1: a few tracks when they first got at the scene.

432
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,960
Speaker 1: But they didn't really these officers, I call him Mickey Mouse.

433
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,000
Speaker 1: They were sheriffs. They go to a community college, they

434
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:10,359
Speaker 1: get a two year degree and they give him a

435
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,720
Speaker 1: badge and they think they're investigator of you know, they

436
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,679
Speaker 1: think they're working for the FBI. They going aught from a.

437
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,200
Speaker 4: Home to the ground. Now Colombo, right, yeah, so your

438
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,919
Speaker 4: trial must have taken forever. It's seven hundred jurors at

439
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,439
Speaker 4: the head data if you I mean, how long did

440
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:25,080
Speaker 4: all that take?

441
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,360
Speaker 1: Picked the juror was a couple of weeks, and.

442
00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:28,440
Speaker 4: Then how long did the trial take?

443
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,240
Speaker 1: It was almost a month, So this is three and

444
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,880
Speaker 1: a half weeks. And I was saying earlier I had

445
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,200
Speaker 1: the junk science and then there was a jail house

446
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,159
Speaker 1: in format, and then I had one other person this

447
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,240
Speaker 1: guy was in Utica cop he was off duty. He

448
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,479
Speaker 1: sent him back in nineteen eighty five. He didn't know

449
00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,439
Speaker 1: what vehicle he saw or what person he saw on

450
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,880
Speaker 1: the same road where they found their body. He took

451
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 1: the stand in my trial and he said after three

452
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,480
Speaker 1: and a half years his mind got better and he

453
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,280
Speaker 1: picked me and my truck out. And what they did

454
00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,560
Speaker 1: is they had a photo lineup of all these different people,

455
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,119
Speaker 1: and he said it was a blond guy. Well, my

456
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 1: picture was the only one with blonde hair. Everybody else

457
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 1: had different color hair. Then he had a lineup of trucks.

458
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 1: They had white trucks, they had they had blue, different pickups.

459
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,480
Speaker 1: My truck was the only red Maroonis pickup truck. And

460
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 1: that's what he saw. But he said he was going

461
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:24,160
Speaker 1: down Mohawk Street at fifty miles an hour and they said,

462
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,360
Speaker 1: at the rate of speed, you only have so many

463
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 1: seconds to see a vehicle. Well, this guy said he

464
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 1: picked out he saw on the front of my truck.

465
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 1: He had my license plate, and then blow that I

466
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,680
Speaker 1: had it was a GMC. I had another colorful plate

467
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:38,199
Speaker 1: that went underneath. You know, it was a big thing

468
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 1: in the eighties, you know, it was a kid thing,

469
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,440
Speaker 1: and he said he saw that. But if you look

470
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,840
Speaker 1: at my truck and you see that GMC plate, you're

471
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 1: going to see the license plate right above it. It's

472
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,680
Speaker 1: like automatic, you know, it's like one piece. He said

473
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 1: he didn't see the plate number, but his body was

474
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:53,960
Speaker 1: running for sheriff that year, and he wanted to be

475
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 1: the under sheriff. So that was a politic move, you

476
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:57,400
Speaker 1: know what I mean.

477
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 4: So you had he was an incentivized way too. It

478
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 4: blows my mind that everyone knows it's illegal to bribe

479
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 4: a witness. You couldn't have paid somebody to come in

480
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,360
Speaker 4: and go no, no, no, Steve, definitely not. I saw

481
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 4: him on the thing. Whatever. You can't do that. That's

482
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 4: totally you got to jail for that. But the government

483
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 4: can offer the best bribe in the world in exchange

484
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,080
Speaker 4: for false testimony, which is they can go to a

485
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,959
Speaker 4: guy like this guy who sounds like a career scumbag, right,

486
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 4: this guy stole O or whatever his name was, Murder. Yeah.

487
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 4: So the idea that they can bribe somebody like that

488
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,720
Speaker 4: with the you know, giving them literally years and years

489
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,560
Speaker 4: of prison time make it just manash like a miracle.

490
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 4: Do you think Steve, that they knew that you were innocent.

491
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,639
Speaker 1: I think they did. I think they wanted to solve

492
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,960
Speaker 1: the case. There was a lot of pressure. Like I

493
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,440
Speaker 1: said earlier, small town murder rapes like that don't happen

494
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 1: every you know, doesn't happen in my area, you know

495
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 1: what I mean. It was like this was the biggest

496
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 1: story in a long time, you know what I mean,

497
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 1: ever since I was a kid. I don't remember.

498
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, let me let me correct you. They didn't want

499
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 4: to solve the case. They wanted to clear the clared.

500
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 4: To solve the case, they would have had to actually

501
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 4: go back to work.

502
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 1: It was on the news every day in the media.

503
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 1: I mean, they just kept it was never quiet.

504
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 4: So the jury goes out and how long did they deliberate?

505
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 1: For almost twenty four hours.

506
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 4: That must have been one of the hardest twenty four

507
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 4: hours of your life.

508
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 1: Yes, the first day I went home after the jury,

509
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,399
Speaker 1: they just you know, nine to five. It was a

510
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 1: quarter hour days they went And I remember in the

511
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: second day I was home and buddy mine and my

512
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: couple of my buddies around. They go, Yeah, it was

513
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: right before Memorial Day. We were going to go to

514
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 1: like a festival party. They had field days in my area. Fireman,

515
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 1: it's like a carnival. My buddy goes, yeah, we'll be

516
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 1: going there tonight and I said yeah. I says, everything's

517
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: going to work out. And I haven't slept like a long,

518
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 1: you know, since the jury went out, you know what

519
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: I mean. It's like, this is my life, you know

520
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 1: what I mean. They're trying to nail me to the

521
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,719
Speaker 1: cross for somebody to do, you know what i mean.

522
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm like, this can't be happening, you know

523
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: what I mean. I'm like, I'm Liko. And I came.

524
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 1: I went to this trial, and so we got to

525
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 1: call the juries back and we went to the courtroom

526
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 1: and me and my lawyer we walked in. I get

527
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 1: a little teary eyed sometimes we uh ye, but uh

528
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:32,120
Speaker 1: every day during a trial, the jury used to look

529
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: at me when I when I when I was sitting there,

530
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: you know, when people were testifying, the jury used to

531
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: look at me. We'd take a break, come in and out,

532
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: and the jury used to always look at us, me

533
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: and my lawyer. But that day we came, you know,

534
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: the jury came back and they wouldn't look at me.

535
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:47,639
Speaker 1: And my lawyer. We walked in the courtroom and they

536
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: sit down and then they jury foreman gives the judge.

537
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: You know, we were you know, we reached the verdict

538
00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 1: and they said please stand and they said guilty. And

539
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:09,479
Speaker 1: I melted, but yeah, I was about the statues day

540
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: of my life. None not sorry, I get emotional about that.

541
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: But my lawyer looked at me and I seen this

542
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: theory come down to side and he said, I'm awful, sorry,

543
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: and I said, so they cought me and put me

544
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: in jubail, you know, revoke my.

545
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 4: Bail, and.

546
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 1: We tried to get a retrial, and you know, my

547
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: lawyer put in different motions. He said, somebody on the

548
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 1: jury knew somebody testified and they investigated and they said no,

549
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: it's you know, nothing denied. So that was June second.

550
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: I di verdict came back nineteen eighty nine. I got

551
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: sentenced in September. September second and I went to court

552
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 1: and they gave me the max. They twenty five to

553
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: the life for murder, rape inside of me and before

554
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: they sutens me, I told the judge I'm in and

555
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: my little sister jumped up in the courtroom side. You

556
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: rare over with my brother because the DA said I

557
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: didn't show any remorse, because my sister jumped up and said,

558
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: that's because he didn't do it, you know, and they

559
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 1: escorted her out of the courtroom, and a few other

560
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 1: people shouted out some things, and the judge says, everybody's

561
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: got to be quiet, and so they sutens me. Then

562
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 1: eight days later, I was sitting in Attica and I

563
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: remember the two officers that brought me up date. You know,

564
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,880
Speaker 1: they talked ship to me the whole time. They said, Uh,

565
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 1: you're gonna be somebody's bitch in jail. You know, they're

566
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: gonna get you because you're a you have a rape charge.

567
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: So I figured, you know, I'm gonna be home a

568
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: couple of years. It didn't work. A couple of years

569
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: turned into uh, twenty years.

570
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 4: While you are inside in some of these most violent,

571
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 4: hellish places, it really is hell on earth. How did

572
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 4: you maintain hope?

573
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: Well, the main thing was my family. They were my

574
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 1: main supporters. A lot of guys in prison, I don't

575
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: have any family, you know, and I know I didn't

576
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: do this, and I said, I'm going to fight to

577
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: the end, and some day the truth will set me free.

578
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: And I never realized it would take twenty years, you

579
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 1: know what I mean? I thought, you know, but it did,

580
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: and here you are and here I am on the show.

581
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: But like I always tell everybody, hope, you know, hope.

582
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: In my family, it's all they had when I was

583
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: in jail, I had my mother, my brother, and my sister.

584
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 1: I had one close friend, the guy I was with

585
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: that night at the balling, and he came to visit

586
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 1: me a couple of times, but everybody else moved on.

587
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: My first six months upstate, I told my girlfriend, I said,

588
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: go live your life. I don't know what's going to

589
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: happen with me. She was a year younger than me.

590
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 1: I said, go meet mister Wright. You know, have I

591
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: ever run into you again? You know, I hope you do.

592
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 1: I said you'd be happy. And she cried and I cried.

593
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: And so I'm in jail, and you know, I never

594
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: called it my home or accepted it, but I figured,

595
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: you know, my lawyer, my child or he did my

596
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: appeals worked department in Rochester. They shot my appeal down.

597
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: Then I tried to go to a Court of Appeals

598
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 1: and they denied me entry. And then six months after that,

599
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: my lawyer died of a massive heart attack at the

600
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: age of sixty eight. Another part of my luck, my

601
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: lawyer dies. The assistant DA that tried me, he died

602
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: of a massive heart attack six months after my lawyer

603
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: died of a heart attack. So I have sat dormant

604
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: for four or five years, bounced around from prison to prison.

605
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: You know, prison life was not good. I had a fight, strong,

606
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: survived the week, get preyed on. You know, I wasn't

607
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: going to be the weak person get prayed on. And

608
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: I lifted weights and I stabbed people. You know, You're

609
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: forced to live in an environment that you not used

610
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: to and people that you hate. And it's just I

611
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: tell people that I wouldn't wish prison on my worst enemy,

612
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's hell on earth. Never

613
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: been in trouble, and here I am got a life

614
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: bid and I'm like, I don't know when I'm ever

615
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: going to get out of here.

616
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 4: Were you a tough guy when you went in, Like.

617
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was, you know, yeah, I didn't take no crap,

618
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I wasn't no bowlie or nothing.

619
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 4: But then you're in there, there's a lot of guys

620
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 4: bigger and tougher than you.

621
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there's yeah, there's a lot of tough There's

622
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,479
Speaker 1: a lot of big guys in there. And I lifted weights,

623
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: and you know, I lifted a lot of heavyweights. I

624
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: was big. I won a lot of weightlifting competitions. And

625
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: we had TVs in the yard and it was I

626
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: don't know if back in the eighties they had the

627
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: Phil Downie Who show. I remember on Phil Downey Who Show. Well,

628
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: there's these two guys on there and their name was

629
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: Barry Shock and Peter Nufeldt, and they had guys on

630
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: there that they got out through DNA. And this was

631
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: like in ninety four, and my mother watched the same show.

632
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: So I go, I'm gonna write them a letter. I

633
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: wrote a twelve pages twelve thirteen page letter explained my

634
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: whole case toing what happened, you know, and they wrote

635
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: me back questionnaire. They agreed to take my case. So

636
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: for a couple of years to get the evidence, they

637
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: came up, took my blood. We agreed on a lab

638
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: back in them days, I had to pay for the

639
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 1: lab testing. The Innocent Project was very small. Well, you

640
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: actually talked to Barry on the phone and it was

641
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: about to be five six law students from Cordova and

642
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: it was a real small operation. Operation is not like

643
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: it does now. I mean it's but they signed to

644
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: a lab and they had the technology wasn't there. My

645
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 1: mother came up and I really thought I was going home,

646
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: you know, I got all excited and I had about

647
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: seven years in seven eight years by now, and she

648
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: came up to visit me and said, I'm sorry, but

649
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: the DNA test came back inclusive. Our technology wasn't there

650
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: like we have now. And plus the way the law

651
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: enforcement collected evidence back down, you know, it was very

652
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: sloppy there.

653
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 4: It still is, but.

654
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: There's no lot of these cops. They don't you know,

655
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: they're not. They should train some people how to do

656
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: evidence and how they handle it, and they put some

657
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: kind of solution on the slides it breaks down DNA

658
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: and stuff.

659
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 4: And we still don't have a national standard for storing

660
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 4: of this evidence, which is insane. Yeah, we keep the

661
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 4: evidence so we can find the guy, right that whoever

662
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 4: did this to this poor girl, is this sick, sick

663
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 4: predator that needs to be off the streets and in

664
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 4: order to someday have a chance to get that guy.

665
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 4: You got to save the evidence. I mean, and I'm

666
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 4: just talking about your case. I'm talking about every case.

667
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 4: So they should additihould absolutely be a standard practice that

668
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 4: everybody has to adhere to. And obviously that wasn't the

669
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 4: situation in your case. But go ahead.

670
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: Another setback, Yeah, another setback. So got convicted. My lawyer,

671
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: Dice Peels shot down. Now inconclusive DNA. Now I'm like

672
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: the hopes. I always tell people my hope, my candle.

673
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: You know, the flame was like really big, and now

674
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: the flame was just about out, you know what I mean.

675
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm hitting rock bottom, Like, oh, I'm gonna

676
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 1: die in here. I got a life bid. I almost

677
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: got ten years in I got another fifteen to go

678
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: just to go to the pro board. If I went

679
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: to the pro board, I have to meet gilt. I

680
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: didn't do this, So I'm gonna die in here. And

681
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: I didn't have the death penalty. Good thing, because they

682
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 1: probably would have executed me. So I always kept study

683
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: on the law library, and I bounced around from prison

684
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: to prison. I was in eight or nine different maxes

685
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: and throughout the state of New York, and I kept

686
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: busy and I always went to the law library, and

687
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: I kept up on DNA, you know, and then I

688
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: followed up on some cases. Guys that were that I

689
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: did time with were getting out, and I says, and

690
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: I remember I reading about DNA. It was a ystr

691
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: DNA testing. It was real new and touched DNA on

692
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: that John Benet Rainey case where people touched their clothes

693
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: they get DNA. So my brother, they had, my younger brother,

694
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: he drove down to Boston, Massachusetts. They had a conference

695
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: down there from a Xanderies got out. So he went

696
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: down and talked to Barry and Peter were there and

697
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: a couple of Xanneries and he says, told them, you

698
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: worked on my brother's case like eight nine years ago

699
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: and it was inconclusive. Can you maybe relook into it,

700
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: because you know, technology has come a long way. And

701
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: so it was probably six eight months later Mattie Delone

702
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: called a prison I was at in Elmira. Actually the

703
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 1: chaplain came to myself and I thought somebody passed away

704
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: because I lost all my grandparents when I was in prison.

705
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh my god. When the chaplain comes

706
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: to your cell. You think automatically, think you know there's

707
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: a death in the family or something bad happen, you know.

708
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: But the chaplain said, no, it's good news. You got

709
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: to call the Innocent Projects. So I called down and

710
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 1: they said, Manny Palomes, she said, we're taking on your case.

711
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,800
Speaker 1: So now I got about seventeen sixteen, seventeen years in

712
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 1: almost and I was thinking, I hope they still have

713
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: the evidence because in my area it's small. They don't

714
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: have the storage to close rape kits. You know, they

715
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: just throw your shit in the box, put it on

716
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: the shelf, you know. After your appeals are done, sometimes

717
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: they get rid of it. Well, they started to investigating.

718
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: They found the evidence, so I had to go through

719
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: the same process that I went through as years back.

720
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,760
Speaker 1: So we agreed on the lab and it was almost

721
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: two years after got the evidence. They come up to

722
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,240
Speaker 1: they said, were the two investigators from the Sheriff's apartment

723
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: and a lady from the lab. My staff attorney from

724
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 1: the Innocent Project called and said they're gonna come up.

725
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: They're gonna squab. You don't talk to him, you know,

726
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: just do the thing, okay. So they came up. It

727
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 1: was beginning of November, like this first week in November

728
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: of two thousand and eight. I went in and the

729
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: cops are going, you know, how you doing, Steve. I go,

730
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: I'm doing good, you know while you're here. I go, yeah,

731
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,760
Speaker 1: I requested you guys to be here. I wrote Tennison

732
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: Project and I requested the DNA testing. I go, you

733
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 1: guys just didn't wake up one morning and say, you know,

734
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 1: Steve Barnes is innocent. We want to get him out

735
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: of jail. And they looked at me and he go, no, yeah,

736
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: you're right. We were here because you know, we worked

737
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 1: for the DA's office. I say, yup. So they swabbed me.

738
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: You know, he did all that and they sealed everything,

739
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: and I go, how long is it's gonna take? And

740
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: they said about two weeks. I said, I'll see you

741
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: in court. I walked out and it was a little

742
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 1: over two weeks. It was on Friday night. It was

743
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: November twenty first. I used to call home, talk to

744
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,479
Speaker 1: my mother on Friday night and see she was coming

745
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: up to visit on the weekend. And she says, the

746
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 1: Innocent Project wants you to call. So we locked in

747
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,399
Speaker 1: at five. It was like four thirty quarter to five,

748
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: so we had a lock in for child and we

749
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: came back out at about six six thirty. So my

750
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,919
Speaker 1: mother ended up calling the Innison Project because I can't

751
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: get on the phone. So I called my mother after

752
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: after child, and she said my staff's thirty name was

753
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: Elba Morale as she's not with the INN Project anymore.

754
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 1: But she asked my mother, She goes, it was right

755
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: before Thanksgiving, was you know? She asked my mother, what

756
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,760
Speaker 1: are you gonna do for Thanksgiving? My mother says, uh,

757
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: I always wish, you know, Steve wouldn't be home for Thanksgiving,

758
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 1: because we really have him celebrated a Thanksgiving, her Christmas

759
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: or any holidays for you know, two decades. And she

760
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: told my mother said, another dinner played at the table

761
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: because your son's coming home. And that was another time

762
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: I cried. But twenty years before that was tears of sadness.

763
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: Now I had tears of joy. And I was on

764
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: the gallery and I dropped the phone and I go, yeah,

765
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: I'm going home, you know. So that was good Friday,

766
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: excuse me Friday, and my mother came up. Excuse me,

767
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: that's Saturday. Next day. And the prison I was in,

768
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: I was there about six years and the seals knew

769
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 1: me and no, my mo you know, she goes my son.

770
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: You know, the guy's on the raid and he's coming home.

771
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,959
Speaker 1: So they took me in the court on Monday morning.

772
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 1: It was twenty fourth, November twenty fourth. So when I

773
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 1: went to the court, the DA at the time of

774
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: my trial, the head DA. After my conviction, he got

775
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: he got elected as a judge. He was running for

776
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 1: to be a judge, so they couldn't put me in

777
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: front of him. And then very shock, he couldn't get

778
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: a flight out from the city down in the courtroom.

779
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: So they put me in the county jail for one

780
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: more night. So I had to go to court on

781
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: the twenty fifth.

782
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 4: That was a crazy night.

783
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they're like deciding what they do.

784
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 4: I go.

785
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 1: Listen, I was found out on a Friday night on

786
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,720
Speaker 1: the twenty first that I was innocent. And now I've

787
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,399
Speaker 1: been in jail on four more days. So they put

788
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: me in a county jail and every you know, I've

789
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 1: been on the news and you know, people are coming

790
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,399
Speaker 1: up to my cell in the county jail. Yo, man,

791
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: you know all that time, Oh my god, you know,

792
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: I could just get away from my cell. I I

793
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,359
Speaker 1: just want to chill out. So I didn't really sleep

794
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,280
Speaker 1: much that night, and I didn't sleep the whole weekend

795
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 1: in jail, in prison, and then they brought me to court,

796
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: you know. And I remember my mother brought up a

797
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 1: suit and I'm in the property room. This is I

798
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: asked to see. Oh, I go, listen, we got a problem.

799
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: He goes, well, I go, I forgot how to tie

800
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: a tie. I go, you think you could help me

801
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: out here? So he did it around his neck and

802
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 1: he shook my hand and then they shackled me all up.

803
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 4: You know, court pretty ridiculous when you take it right,

804
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,280
Speaker 4: you've already been exonerated. What's the point yes or whatever?

805
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, but you got to be official in

806
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,800
Speaker 1: front of the judge. So I going. And a social

807
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: worker from the Innocent Project was there, Angela. She came

808
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: in in the bullpen and she says to you, I

809
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 1: just want to let you know there's like gazillion cameras people.

810
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: I mean, there's tons of stuff. She goes to me,

811
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: you walk in there, it's going to be like spotlights.

812
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: And I'm like, okay. And I was already exhausted, so

813
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 1: they brought me in and all shackled up, and I'm

814
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,439
Speaker 1: looking around and I'm like seeing people I haven't seen

815
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: in twenty years. And I'm like, and that's my friend Mark.

816
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: What happened to him? He's all gray haired, you know.

817
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: And I'm looking at all my friends that I haven't seen.

818
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, the judge says, you know, he's he says,

819
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: you know about the DNA testing and it's excluded me,

820
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: and he vacated my satin. So they they took all

821
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 1: the shackles off and you could hear a pin drop

822
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: in the courtroom when they dropped everything, like and then

823
00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 1: people were crying and my heart was going like forty

824
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: miles an hour, and I'm like, man, I was like,

825
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: I don't have a heart. I'm saying myself, don't have

826
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: a heart of tank. Now you're going home, you know

827
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: what I mean? Went through all this for twenty years.

828
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: And like so then we had a media friends and

829
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 1: you know, they're asking me all these questions and people

830
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: were showing me what a cell phone was, and we.

831
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 4: Take me back for a second season. So that shackles drop,

832
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 4: Oh yes, right, and then what did you turn aroundd.

833
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: Just you said you're free to go. And we went

834
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: into another.

835
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 4: Room and uh, where was your mom doing this?

836
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: She was in behind me, sitting behind because I was

837
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 1: at a podium with a very shock, and my staff

838
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 1: attorney and my mother was in the back row and

839
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 1: everybody else that was there.

840
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 4: That is that the first thing you did turn around

841
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 4: see your mom.

842
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: Or yep, and you know and I and I just

843
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: looked at the judge and I said I didn't. I

844
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: was just like in awe, you know what I mean?

845
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: And so and then the media friends had starting all

846
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: the questions and then went to a nice restaurant, had

847
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 1: a nice meal for the first time.

848
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 4: You know what you have.

849
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 1: I had a steak on a shrimp cocktail. And I

850
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: remember going up my mother's road where I grew up,

851
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: and I'm like, wow, places that I hung out were

852
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: torn down, New places were put up, new houses, different roads.

853
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: There was a store called the Walmart that I never

854
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:18,919
Speaker 1: heard of. The internet. I had to start my life

855
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 1: over like a sixteen year old kid. You know what

856
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 1: I mean. When they exonerate you, they just drop you

857
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: off the courthouse. When you get parle from prison, they

858
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: give you money an ID card. I didn't have nothing,

859
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I called the prison, my counselor.

860
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: I asked them to send my SOLI security and all

861
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: of my records. They go, you can't have them. So

862
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 1: I had to get every start over. I had to

863
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: get ID to get an ID, so I had to

864
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: get a birth certificate, social Security card, and I got

865
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: to picture ID. Learn how to drive again, because when

866
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: I first got in the car years ago, they used

867
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: to have the high beam on the floor. Now it's

868
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: like on a steering wheel, and you got all this

869
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: high tech stuff digital it was quite different, and technology

870
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: was hard to deal with the Internet, and then you

871
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,760
Speaker 1: got into texting and I set up an email and

872
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 1: they gave me a job with the county after I

873
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 1: got out about six months working with troubled kids, and

874
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 1: then I was working for a re entry I would

875
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: help guys that got out of prison, you know, try

876
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 1: to help find them jobs. And I did that for

877
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,399
Speaker 1: about five years and then they quit the funding and.

878
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,359
Speaker 4: Then, yeah, why would we need any funding to help

879
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 4: guys who just got out of prison find jobs? What

880
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 4: possible good could that in the world.

881
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: It's like, and I worked with troubled kids that you

882
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 1: only couldn't make it in the local high schools. They

883
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: were got of spying out of control.

884
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 4: You know, you got a lot of satisfaction.

885
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 2: Yeah.

886
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: I straightened some of them out, but I'd set them

887
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 1: down the first when they came to my group and

888
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 1: I set them down, I said, listen, I don't care

889
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 1: how top you are, what do you think you are,

890
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: but this is what happened in my life, you know

891
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 1: what I mean. And they look at me, well, and

892
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 1: everybody knows who I am. I'm a small town you

893
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 1: know what I mean.

894
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 4: It's like, did they ever find the guy who did it?

895
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: Nope? They put the case on America Most Wanted twice.

896
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 4: Were there any rumors around at the time that this happened?

897
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: The new investigators day after I got out, you know,

898
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: they used to we got me in the DA. They

899
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: used to call me over all the time, and they

900
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: had pictures of certain individuals and trucks that was somewhere

901
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: in mind. They asked me if I knew these persons whatever,

902
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 1: and I didn't. And there was a guy that was

903
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: in prison for he kidnapped the girl, raped her and

904
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: the cop he threw in the trunk and he went

905
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: to prison for it and he jumped on and the

906
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 1: cops are chasing him. He jumped in front of a

907
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: train and chopped his legs off. But he was a

908
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: person of interest in my case because after I got out,

909
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 1: they were running DNA testing people, you know, certain they

910
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 1: got leads, people were calling, mentioning names. Well, this certain

911
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: individual that was in jail with me, they took his

912
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 1: DNA and he asked him how long it would take

913
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 1: to come back, and they said about almost two weeks,

914
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 1: and he committed suicide. Because after I got out, my

915
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 1: whole case on my trial, that isn't how it happened.

916
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: That was like ah Lie where they found her body,

917
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: That was not where she was murdered, they said in

918
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: my trial they said she was murdered, raped and left there,

919
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 1: that she was dumped off there. She was at a

920
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: party with a bunch of individuals. There was males and

921
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 1: females there and it was a Satanic worship party. And

922
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 1: all this stuff came to light after I got out.

923
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 1: Three people called the DA's office admitted they lied. The

924
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: new investigators tried to call. The old investigators are now

925
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: retired living in Florida. They didn't want to return their calls,

926
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: they wouldn't cooperate with them. They went and seen the

927
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,439
Speaker 1: off duty cop that testified in my trolley. He said,

928
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: it's my story and I'm sticking with it, and get

929
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 1: out of my house, off my porch.

930
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 4: And isn't it weird that it took that long for

931
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 4: all this stuff to come out? These are important facts, right.

932
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 1: And then they had the reports from the original cops.

933
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: They had leads on certain other people. The cops just

934
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: pushed them to the side and didn't even look into

935
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: any of them, didn't even acknowledge them. They just had

936
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: liners on They go, we want Steve Barnes and that's it.

937
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 1: We don't care. People were calling, you know, with leads

938
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: on someone else. They didn't even follow up on none

939
00:44:58,680 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 1: of it.

940
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, they call that tunnel vision. And it's so tragic too,

941
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 4: because you know, I mean, like the poor girl would

942
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 4: happen to her, should never happened to anybody. And the

943
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 4: idea that the guy, who actually a person we don't

944
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:13,479
Speaker 4: even know who it was, maybe more than one person

945
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 4: will never know at this point, was free to just uh,

946
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 4: you know, live their life, whether they committed other crimes

947
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 4: like this. Again, we will also know that we'll never

948
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 4: know that.

949
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: Our system is so broken up it's it's insane, you

950
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Like since I've been I've been

951
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: to Albany like at Capital, probably fifteen times, you know

952
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: what I mean. And I finally about filming interrogations now

953
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 1: and how they do photo lineups. I went out with

954
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 1: Rebecca Brown in Albany for days on ends. You know,

955
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: I'd be out there for the whole day talking to

956
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: these senators and assemblymen's.

957
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 4: And Rebecca Brown is the policy dollar.

958
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: She would come to my area and I got involved

959
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: with my congressman and my assemblymen in my area, and

960
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: they they were backing me, and they, you know, we

961
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: find if they had filming interrogation when I went, when

962
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: I got interrogated back then, it would be a different story.

963
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:00,959
Speaker 4: And isn't it New York State?

964
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: Right?

965
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 4: We would think New York State pretty advanced, right, one

966
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 4: of the I mean, you know.

967
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,479
Speaker 1: We're way behind our mothering states. We're like ten years

968
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 1: behind Rhode Island, Connecticut, Jersey, they best laws like this

969
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 1: nine years ago.

970
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 4: We still don't have mandatory videotaping of interrogations in New

971
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 4: York State. It's unbelievable.

972
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: In my County, my DA, he does them all. Yeah,

973
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: to my case, he decided to.

974
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 4: Well than to his credit. But the idea that we

975
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 4: do not have mandatory videotaping of interrogations at this point,

976
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 4: it's totally inexcusable. And it's just it's a simple way

977
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 4: to reduce the number of wrongful incarcerations and get more

978
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 4: right ones. I mean, there's just no explanation of any

979
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 4: kind that makes any sense when it comes to that.

980
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:42,760
Speaker 4: So let me ask you this thing before we wrap

981
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,479
Speaker 4: this up. Then. I know there's a lot of years

982
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 4: gone by now too, but is there a worst experience

983
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 4: that you want to share with the audience from prison?

984
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 4: And also, was there a moment beside the moment when

985
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 4: you actually heard that you were going home? Was there

986
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 4: another moment that gave you some some sort of joy

987
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 4: or you know, a renewed sense of hope.

988
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,879
Speaker 1: Well, it was a rough road. I had a lot

989
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: of ups and downs, and I never had any strong

990
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 1: positive things that was gonna you know, after I had

991
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: the first DNA testing that was inconclusive, it kind of

992
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 1: like I didn't know when I was coming home, you know,

993
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 1: I thought it was over. I literally gave up hope

994
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 1: towards it at one point.

995
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 4: So that was the lowest point. Yeah, but I guess

996
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 4: the one thing I wanted to ask, was there one

997
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 4: moment of you know, in prison, was there somebody who

998
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 4: actually showed you some sort of kindness that wasn't expected.

999
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: Yeah? I had a few, you know, there was good

1000
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 1: cops and bad cops. I had some good officers, you know.

1001
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 1: I told a couple officers you know my situation. They

1002
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 1: believed in me. And when I was in prison, I

1003
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: worked with a lot of civilians. I worked maintenance, and

1004
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 1: I got pretty tight with what few of my civilians,

1005
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 1: you know, And I told my story. And actually when

1006
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: I was when I got out, the maint and supervisor

1007
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 1: gave me his phone numbers. He said, they've called me

1008
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 1: when you get out, and you're welcome to come to

1009
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: my house. And they always gave me they looked out

1010
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: for me in there.

1011
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 4: You know.

1012
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: He gave me nice jobs and somebody to talk to,

1013
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I didn't talk. I had

1014
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: a few guys that hung out with that we worked

1015
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: out together. We had our little crew, you know what

1016
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 1: I mean. And you just you know, you didn't talk

1017
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 1: your business with a lot of people. But you just

1018
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 1: I just they made me. You know, it was having

1019
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: a bad day at my boss. You know, there was

1020
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: you know I should talk with him. You know, he goes,

1021
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: I know you're having a bad day. We won't do

1022
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 1: much today or whatever. And when my family came up

1023
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 1: to visit me, you know, they gave me nice feeling.

1024
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 4: And what about I mean, I know you talked about

1025
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 4: when I saw the video, you talked about being tear gassed,

1026
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 4: being stabbed, being in fights, being in riots. I mean,

1027
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 4: was there one experience that you may not want to

1028
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 4: share it, but if there was, was there one experience

1029
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 4: that was like the worst of the worst.

1030
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: It was probably in ninety seven in Green Having Correction facility.

1031
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 1: I was they were starting to build double bunks and

1032
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 1: I was a welder and they wanted me to weld

1033
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 1: double bunk cells and I refused, So I was keep

1034
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: locked and they took us out of our block for

1035
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 1: keep locked rack. They let you out for one hour

1036
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 1: a day. And I was an H black lower H

1037
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: and there was one of the other key locked inmates.

1038
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 1: The CEOs beat them down. We heard him screaming, and

1039
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 1: we're lined up in the hall with the sergeant and

1040
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: they said, you guys, take it to the yard and

1041
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 1: we said, screw you, we ain't moving. You just beat

1042
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 1: down one of our you know, we're not moving. He said,

1043
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: I'm giving you another order to move, and he said, no,

1044
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 1: we ain't moving. You know. So in prison we call

1045
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 1: him Warren's crush. I call him the Ninja Turtles. The

1046
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: guards with all the pads and right gear. They came

1047
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 1: marching down the hall and I looked at the guy

1048
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 1: next to me. I said, this is it. I go

1049
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 1: do or die? I go, I'll talk to you later.

1050
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 1: I go on, We're gonna make it out here alive.

1051
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 1: And they came down and just started wailing on all

1052
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 1: of you know, and we got pretty well broken up.

1053
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: And they ship me up up north, you know, and

1054
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,760
Speaker 1: I sat in reception and Auburn for like two weeks

1055
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 1: without a shower or nothing. They lost my property. You know,

1056
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:15,839
Speaker 1: I thought it was like I wasn't gonna die there

1057
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,800
Speaker 1: that day. It's probably one of my scariest times in prison,

1058
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: you know, besides the first day I walked in there.

1059
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 1: You know, when I walked in there one day, I'm

1060
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:29,439
Speaker 1: unpacking my cell and there's Gey says, hey, why boy,

1061
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 1: you know you're gonna be my bitch in prison all

1062
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:32,920
Speaker 1: this I go. No, I took them up ringer and

1063
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 1: I spun around. I blasted them right side the head

1064
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: with it, you know what I mean. And that's the

1065
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 1: way it is. You know what I mean. The strong survive.

1066
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 1: You know, you can't say, can I think about this

1067
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 1: and let this guy talk to me? Or take my

1068
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 1: stuff prison? If you touch me or you touch my stuff,

1069
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 1: you're gonna get stabbed or you're gonna die, or that's

1070
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,359
Speaker 1: the way it is. You're not gonna get punked down,

1071
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 1: even though wind lose your draw if you got to

1072
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:58,799
Speaker 1: stick up for yourself, you know what I mean. If

1073
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 1: you don't, you know, you're gonna be a chump punk.

1074
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 4: This is literally it is. It sounds literally like Shawshank redemption. Yeah, unbelievable.

1075
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:09,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just.

1076
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 4: For people listening now, they're probably thinking this is horrible,

1077
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 4: like what happened to you is it's it's a crime

1078
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:21,359
Speaker 4: against humanity what happened to you? And people listening they're going,

1079
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 4: what can I do to help? Right? People want to

1080
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 4: get involved. They're gonna hear your story and it's gonna

1081
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 4: be that reaction probably plus plus, so what would you

1082
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 4: say the average person's out there listening in one of

1083
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,439
Speaker 4: the states, out there wherever they listen, or around the world.

1084
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 4: What could people do to get active to help with

1085
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 4: this situation.

1086
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 1: Well, I always tell people were in my area and

1087
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 1: stuff that Unison project. They gave me my life back,

1088
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,359
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Yeah, you don't realize people

1089
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,439
Speaker 1: don't really really look about, you know, the daily life.

1090
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,399
Speaker 1: You know, little things in life like going to the store,

1091
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: going here. In prison, you're like a programmed person. You know.

1092
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 1: You get up at a certain time every morning, you're

1093
00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 1: told what to do, twenty four to seven, do your

1094
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 1: after year, you know, And I tell people, you know,

1095
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 1: I didn't know it would take twenty years to prove

1096
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 1: my innocence because I thought I'd be out after a

1097
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 1: couple of years. But days turn into weeks, weeks turns

1098
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: into months, months turning into years, and years turning into

1099
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 1: decades of loneliness. You know.

1100
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,359
Speaker 4: But but you didn't give up when you had every

1101
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 4: reason to give up.

1102
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 1: Freedom is a lot to me now, you know, like

1103
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: years ago. You know, when you're on the street growing up,

1104
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 1: you don't think you know everyday life. But when you

1105
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 1: you're swept away and your life's taken away, and then

1106
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,320
Speaker 1: you get your life back. But I just want to

1107
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,560
Speaker 1: say I would donate to the Innocent Project, you know,

1108
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:40,879
Speaker 1: because there's what happened to me. There's hundreds of guys

1109
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: after me. I've been out almost ten years next year,

1110
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: and I was number two hundred and twenty seventh in

1111
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: the country. Now they're up to three hundred and fifty something.

1112
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:49,920
Speaker 1: And I was twenty four in New York State. Now

1113
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 1: they're up to thirty something.

1114
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 3: You know.

1115
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 1: I mean, what happened to me, it can happen to anybody,

1116
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: and it happens all the time. I mean, there's hundreds

1117
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 1: of guys in prison there worse off to me, did

1118
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 1: a lot more time to me. But you know, the

1119
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 1: Innocent Project needs money, you know, it's carry on with this,

1120
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like my testing loan in

1121
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 1: my case was fifty thousand dollars, you know what I mean.

1122
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 4: And I want to point out something too, Steven, You're

1123
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 4: a perfect example of this. The legislative changes right and

1124
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,920
Speaker 4: the procedural changes that the INSCE Project has been behind,

1125
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 4: and compensation statutes like in Kansas where we finally just

1126
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 4: got a compensation statute passed. Right, you know, these changes

1127
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 4: are seismic shifts, and these are This is the macro

1128
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 4: side of the work, right. The micro side is you,

1129
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,359
Speaker 4: even though nothing micro about you. You're a big guy,

1130
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 4: but you know. But the microside is the individual cases.

1131
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 4: The macro side is where a lot of your dollars go.

1132
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 4: If you donate to the Innocesce project like I do,

1133
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 4: like Steve does, you know your money is going to

1134
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 4: affect change that may actually impact you or your community

1135
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 4: or somebody you love in a very real way. Because

1136
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 4: when these changes are made, the odds of you know,

1137
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,720
Speaker 4: you, yourself or a loved one becoming the next Stephen Barnes

1138
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 4: go down dramatically. And we're not going to stop. We're

1139
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:02,799
Speaker 4: just going to keep going and going until we make

1140
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 4: this system as close to perfect as it can be.

1141
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 4: It'll that would be perfect, but we can we can

1142
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 4: make a lot, a huge difference.

1143
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:10,720
Speaker 1: A lot of changes for the better.

1144
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 4: And we are doing that. And now now you're you've

1145
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 4: got a lot of stuff going on, right, I mean,

1146
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 4: now you've been out.

1147
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:18,240
Speaker 1: For a while, your you're nine years, you're.

1148
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 4: Living your best life now.

1149
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: Living to dream yup. I tell people I get up

1150
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 1: every morning late Christmas morning, you.

1151
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,839
Speaker 4: Know, Steven, we have a tradition here at Rafel Conviction. Yes,

1152
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 4: I think people really look forward to this part of

1153
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 4: the show because this is the part where I shut

1154
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 4: up and I basically just turned the microphone over to

1155
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:38,439
Speaker 4: you so you can close out with any thoughts you want.

1156
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 1: All right. I just want to say, after all these,

1157
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 1: all these twenty years that I did in prison, I

1158
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 1: finally got my life back. And I can't say it

1159
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 1: enough thanks to you know, some project. They believed in me,

1160
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 1: they fought for me, they reopened my case, and they

1161
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 1: gave me my life back. I didn't have a life

1162
00:54:57,680 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 1: for twenty years, you know, I had a couple lot

1163
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 1: of hole and I just I'm so happy and what

1164
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: happened to me, it probably happened to a lot of

1165
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,240
Speaker 1: other people I know, but I hope it doesn't continue

1166
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 1: to happen in the future. And I just hope that

1167
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 1: between me and people on the outside world continue to

1168
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:21,279
Speaker 1: donate in this project and help free the innocent and

1169
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: try to better the system, because our system, you know,

1170
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 1: since I've been out ten years, it's come a little ways,

1171
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 1: but it's still broken and we need people like all

1172
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,160
Speaker 1: of us exigneries get together to change laws, and the

1173
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 1: Innocent Project and people on the street to contribute and

1174
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: help us hold you know, just freedom act to you know,

1175
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 1: progress on. And you know, I've been out nine years.

1176
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: It feels like I've been out for a lot longer.

1177
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 1: When I was in prison for all them twenty years,

1178
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 1: it was like days dragged, you know. I mean, out

1179
00:55:54,719 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: here so much to do. I can't even imagine how

1180
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 1: to explain my freedom, you know. And my freedom is

1181
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 1: like so awesome. Now I can do what I want,

1182
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 1: come and go as I please. I don't have nobody

1183
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 1: telling me what to do, what time to go to bed,

1184
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 1: what time to eat, you know, turn your light off,

1185
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: wake up at this time, you know what I mean.

1186
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 1: When I first got out, I took a walk in

1187
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:24,399
Speaker 1: the woods, you know, breathing fresh air, enjoying life. It's

1188
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 1: just I'm having a lot of fun now. And I

1189
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 1: just want to thank the Innocent Project and I want

1190
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:31,920
Speaker 1: to thank you for having me on the show. And

1191
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:37,359
Speaker 1: I look forward to living a great future. I hope

1192
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:40,439
Speaker 1: I live to be another fifty six years. I don't

1193
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:44,320
Speaker 1: have any stress anymore. I'm just I'm on top of

1194
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:44,720
Speaker 1: the world.

1195
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:48,239
Speaker 4: Now, well, that's awesome, and you know, you know, I

1196
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:50,360
Speaker 4: want to wish you all the luck in the world.

1197
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 4: And I'm going to thank you again for coming in

1198
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 4: and being here with us and sharing your story.

1199
00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:58,160
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.

1200
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:11,840
Speaker 4: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review.

1201
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 1: Wherever you get your podcasts.

1202
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 4: It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the

1203
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 4: Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in

1204
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:23,200
Speaker 4: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future

1205
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 4: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how

1206
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 4: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our

1207
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 4: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in

1208
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 4: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

1209
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 4: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

1210
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 4: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with

1211
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 4: Jason Flahm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts

1212
00:57:47,160 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 4: and association with Signal Company Number one