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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: I shall tell you about our guests before we get

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Speaker 1: rolling here. Barry Schwartz was the official documenting photographer for

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Speaker 1: the Shroud of Turn Research Project. That was a team

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Speaker 1: that conducted the first in depth scientific examination of the shroud,

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Speaker 1: and that was back in nineteen seventy eight. He's also

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Speaker 1: the founder, editor, publisher of the internationally recognized Shroud of

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Speaker 1: Turn website, the oldest, largest and most extensive shroud resource

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Speaker 1: on the Internet today. In two thousand and nine, he

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Speaker 1: founded the Shroud of Turn Education and Research Association, to

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Speaker 1: which he has donated the website and his extensive Shroud

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Speaker 1: photographic collection as well. And he was also featured on

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Speaker 1: one of our Beyond Belief episodes that you can find

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Speaker 1: at Beyondbelief dot com. Berry, welcome back. How are you sir?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing great, George, and it's great to be back

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Speaker 1: with you. For the few people who might not know

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Speaker 1: what the Shroud of Turn is and words kept, why

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Speaker 1: don't you tell us about it? Okay? Well, first of all,

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Speaker 1: the Shroud of Turin is called the Shroud of Turin

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Speaker 1: because it's kept in turin Italy. It's a fourteen and

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Speaker 1: a half foot long, three and a half foot wide

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Speaker 1: sheet of linen cloth that bears the front and back

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Speaker 1: image ventral and dorsal, full head to toe, front and

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Speaker 1: back of a crucified, scourged, speared man that was also

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Speaker 1: crowned with a crown of thorns. And the bloodstains that

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Speaker 1: are on it that indicate these wounds are all forensically accurate,

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Speaker 1: and many people, of course believe that it is the

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Speaker 1: burial shroud of Jesus of Nazareth. How long have we

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Speaker 1: known about the shroud? Well, the shroud history goes back

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Speaker 1: certainly to about the mid thirteen hundreds without a break

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Speaker 1: in its chain of custody. Prior to that. There are

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Speaker 1: gaps in its history, which of course gives the skeptics

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Speaker 1: the ammunition they need to challenge it. But there was

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Speaker 1: a cloth that was well. First of all, we can

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Speaker 1: go all the way back to the Gospels. Were mentioned

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Speaker 1: in the Gospels that there was a burial shroud that

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Speaker 1: was provided by Joseph la Arimathea. People always say, well,

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Speaker 1: why wasn't the image on the shroud mentioned in the gospels,

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Speaker 1: And that's very simple it's forbidden by Jewish law to

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Speaker 1: have any depictions of God, and so it also has

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Speaker 1: blood on it, which is required by Jewish law to

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Speaker 1: be buried. So nobody could come running out of the

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Speaker 1: tomb saying look what we found without putting themselves at

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Speaker 1: great risk for a few hundred years. I'm sure it

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Speaker 1: was just hitting the way to keep it away from

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Speaker 1: iconic class and those who would destroy it, or even

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Speaker 1: the people who might have protected it. In the fourth

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Speaker 1: and fifth centuries, well, the first image we see that

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Speaker 1: looks like the Man of the shrouds about two eighty

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Speaker 1: five a d. In the Komatia Catacombs in Rome in

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Speaker 1: the fourth in fifth century, the iconography of the Orthodox

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Speaker 1: Church started making paintings that look exactly like the man

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Speaker 1: on the shroud, with many identifying marks that are very

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Speaker 1: consistent with what's on the shroud itself. There was then

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Speaker 1: another gap in its history. There was a cloth that

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Speaker 1: was in Constantinople or Edessa, and that was known as

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Speaker 1: the mandilion, which means in Greek not made by human

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Speaker 1: hands or in other words, not on artwork. That disappeared

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Speaker 1: I think in about twelve o four, when the Crusaders

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Speaker 1: came and sacked the city, and this mandylion cloth had

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Speaker 1: been walled up in the wall of the city to

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Speaker 1: hide it and protect it. It disappeared, never to be

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Speaker 1: seen there again, and about one hundred and fifty years

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Speaker 1: later it shows up in the hands of a French

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Speaker 1: crusader in the thirteen hundreds, and from there its history

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Speaker 1: is unbroken until today. So that's sort of a brief

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Speaker 1: over view of its history. A lot more detail on

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Speaker 1: Shroud dot com of course, and Barry, what came first

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Speaker 1: the depictions of Jesus that we have all known over

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Speaker 1: the years with you, the robe, the beard, the long hair.

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Speaker 1: Did that come first or was it the shroud that

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Speaker 1: came first? In terms of people's identification with what Jesus

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Speaker 1: may or may not have looked like. Well, I think

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Speaker 1: that probably the earliest solid depictions we would have been

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Speaker 1: in the fourth and fifth century in the Orthodox Church,

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Speaker 1: and there's a very famous artwork called the Christ Panticrator

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Speaker 1: that looks very much like the Man of the Shroud,

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Speaker 1: and most people that have studied this believed that that image,

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Speaker 1: that Christ Pantocrator artwork was based itself on the shroud.

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Speaker 1: So I would have to say the shroud came first. Now,

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Speaker 1: of course, Jesus was tortured before he was put to death.

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Speaker 1: They put, you know, thorns around his head. They spear

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Speaker 1: him in the side when he was on the cross.

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Speaker 1: They hammered him in the legs and in his palms

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Speaker 1: of his hand. Does the shroud depict some of those

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Speaker 1: wound areas? Actually, Georgia depicts all of them as you describe.

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Speaker 1: And interestingly enough, we talk about a crown of thorns.

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Speaker 1: We've looked at artworks throughout religious art history and you'll

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Speaker 1: see the crown of thorns typically depicted as a kind

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Speaker 1: of a circlet around the head. Interestingly enough, that comes

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Speaker 1: from the first century, where artists would depict people of

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Speaker 1: great stature with a laurel wreath around their head, and

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Speaker 1: so the crown of thorns, at least in artworks, was

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Speaker 1: always shown as kind of a circular wreath around the head.

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Speaker 1: But the man of the shroud has bloodstains covering his

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Speaker 1: entire scalp, and that implies that they didn't take the

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Speaker 1: time to weave a pretty crown for this man. They

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Speaker 1: were a criminal ostensible that they were about to execute.

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Speaker 1: They just took a nasty thornbush and smashed it on

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Speaker 1: his head. So the motif of the circlet comes from

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Speaker 1: the artworks of the first century. But the reality, at

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Speaker 1: least of what we see on the shroud is the

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Speaker 1: entire scalp is covered with wounds, implying that they probably

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Speaker 1: just smashed the whole thornbush down onto his head, causing

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Speaker 1: wounds across the entire scalp. Can you tell how tall

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Speaker 1: the individual was, Well, we can, but not as precisely

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Speaker 1: as we'd like. First of all, I have to remember

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Speaker 1: it's a woven cloth, and so it can be stretched

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Speaker 1: in any direction, and we had to be very careful

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Speaker 1: in seventy eight not to stretch it and distort the

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Speaker 1: image on it. We had to smooth it out without

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Speaker 1: pulling too tight and stretching the image. The other thing

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Speaker 1: about the shroud's image is unlike an artwork that has

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Speaker 1: a defined edge, like an artwork or a properly focused photograph,

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Speaker 1: the edge of the image of the shroud just fades out,

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Speaker 1: So it's hard to know exactly where to start and

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Speaker 1: end your measurements. And because of that and the fact

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Speaker 1: that the cloth can change its shape based just on

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Speaker 1: the relative humidity in which it's stored by as much

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Speaker 1: as a few centimeters. We can only do an approximation

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Speaker 1: of about five foot ten five foot eleven as the

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Speaker 1: man on the shrouds height. Can you tell how much

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Speaker 1: you weighed by that? You know? I'm sure that others

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Speaker 1: who have studied the shroud and done the more anthropological

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Speaker 1: kinds of studies have come up with that. I don't

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Speaker 1: really recall off the top. It's a good question, George,

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Speaker 1: not one anybody's asked me lately, But I would guess

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Speaker 1: perhaps one hundred and sixty hundred and seventy five pounds

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Speaker 1: that would be a guess. Interesting, interesting take of all this. Now,

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Speaker 1: the shroud itself, does it travel around? Do people have

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Speaker 1: a chance to see it or do they keep it

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Speaker 1: in turn? It's kept in turn, and it's generally brought out.

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Speaker 1: Historically it was about four times each century, about every

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Speaker 1: twenty five years or so. In the more recent era,

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Speaker 1: starting in nineteen seventy eight, of course, when we examined it.

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Speaker 1: It was again shown in nineteen ninety eight, and in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and in two thousand and ten and twenty

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Speaker 1: and fifteen, so it's had a lot more exposure over

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Speaker 1: the last forty or so years than historically. The next

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Speaker 1: scheduled public exhibition is at least tentatively set for two

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Speaker 1: twenty five, which also happens to be the next holy

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Speaker 1: year of the Catholic Church, and so we're all anticipating

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Speaker 1: that about a year before before the actual exhibition of

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Speaker 1: the Shroud, the Folks and Turin will put on their

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Speaker 1: website a reservation form. It doesn't cost anything to go

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Speaker 1: to see the Shroud, but they do require a reservation.

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Speaker 1: You can now do that online, and so they tell

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Speaker 1: you don't show up early, show up at the time

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Speaker 1: you've selected. And the lines which back in nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: eight were as long as ten hours before you got

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Speaker 1: in to see the shroud, a one hundred thousand or

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Speaker 1: more people lined up queued up to see it. Now

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Speaker 1: it's fifteen to twenty minutes, maybe on the weekends about

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Speaker 1: an hour. So it's much more efficient. Because of the

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Speaker 1: Internet and the opportunity for people to make reservations, we

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Speaker 1: expect that that website to go online about a year

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Speaker 1: before the actual next public exhibition. Wasn't a small piece

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Speaker 1: of it carbon dated DeBerry. But there's some controversy over

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Speaker 1: whether some pollen may have gotten on it or something

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Speaker 1: like that. Well, the controversy. Certainly, there was a radiocarbon

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Speaker 1: dating done in nineteen eighty eight, and three laboratories were

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Speaker 1: chosen to do so Zurich in Switzerland, Oxford, England, and

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Speaker 1: Arizona here in the US, and those three labs were

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Speaker 1: each given a small piece. One little piece was cut

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Speaker 1: from one corner of the cloth, divided in half, one

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Speaker 1: half set aside, the other half divided into third by weight,

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Speaker 1: and given to the three laboratories. They came up with

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Speaker 1: the date range of twelve sixty to thirteen ninety, saying

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Speaker 1: that it's impossible for the shroud to be any older

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Speaker 1: than twelve sixty. Of course, those of us who had

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Speaker 1: been studying the shroud knew that there was strong evidence,

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Speaker 1: historical evidence in the historical record showing the evidence of

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Speaker 1: the shroud existing well before the earliest date given by

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Speaker 1: the carbon dating. But for many years that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the whole world just sort of accepted, well, can't be

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Speaker 1: old enough, so it mustn't be real. It wasn't until

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Speaker 1: about twelve years later, around two thousand, that a theory

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Speaker 1: was proposed stating that there was nothing wrong with the

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Speaker 1: carbon dating only the choice of a single sample from

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Speaker 1: that corner. Turns out that that sample was anomalous, that

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Speaker 1: apparently there was cotton interwoven, which is by the way

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Speaker 1: forbidden by Jewish law of many of the kinds it's called,

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Speaker 1: and so that date. They're now three pays in the

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Speaker 1: peer reviewed literature challenging the radiocarbon dating. The first two

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Speaker 1: came out, one in two thousand and five, then in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, and most recently just a few

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Speaker 1: weeks ago a third paper came out. Now, interestingly enough,

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Speaker 1: George for the twenty seven years after the radiocarbon dating,

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Speaker 1: the three laboratories refused to release the raw data. Well,

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Speaker 1: that was what we were wondering. Why. Well, in twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 1: an Italian researcher, Tristin casabianca using the Freedom of Information

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Speaker 1: Act in England, went to the British Museum and literally

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Speaker 1: forced them to release the data. The reason the British

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Speaker 1: Museum had it was that the chief researcher at the

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Speaker 1: British Museum at the time, Michael Tight, was appointed as

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Speaker 1: supervisor over the three labs to make sure everything was

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Speaker 1: done correctly. Ironically, As soon as the radiocarbon dating results

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Speaker 1: came out, Meigan pounds was anonymously donated to the Oxford

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Speaker 1: Lab and doctor Michael Tight left the British Museum and

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Speaker 1: took a permanent chair at Oxford That didn't look so

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Speaker 1: good well anyway. In twenty seventeen, using the Freedom of

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Speaker 1: Information Act, the British Museum ultimately released the raw data

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Speaker 1: and a new paper came out just a few weeks ago.

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Speaker 1: We'll be featuring it in our next update on shroud

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Speaker 1: dot com on June third or maybe the fourth, and

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Speaker 1: that paper further supports the questionable content of the single

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Speaker 1: sample chosen for dating. So there's now a third peer

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Speaker 1: reviewed article challenges the radiocarbon dating in the peer reviewed literature.

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Speaker 1: Berry is the image like a negative of photographic negative.

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Speaker 1: It is the lights and darks of the image on

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Speaker 1: the shroud are the reverse of what we look at.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're used to seeing light, highlights, shadows, and

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Speaker 1: the john the shroud is in fact the inverse of that. Now,

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Speaker 1: being an old school analog photographer, I spent many many

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Speaker 1: years in the dark room, and when I first looked

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Speaker 1: at the actual shroud, I could immediately see that what

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Speaker 1: was on that cloth had the appearance of a photo

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Speaker 1: negative to me. Now, I don't want to imply that

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Speaker 1: the shroud was made photographically because there was no silver,

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Speaker 1: which would have been the light sense of a material

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Speaker 1: necessary for photography. There was no silver found anywhere on

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Speaker 1: that cloth. And it's not a painting, and it's not

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Speaker 1: a painting. You know. Our team in seventy eight went

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Speaker 1: there to answer the single question, how is the image formed?

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Speaker 1: And we were unable to answer that. We were able

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Speaker 1: to come back and tell you what it's not. It's

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Speaker 1: not a painting, it's not a scorch, and it's not

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Speaker 1: a photograph. Those were the three kind of common suggestions

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Speaker 1: for what might have formed the image. So we can

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Speaker 1: tell you it's not any of those. But we don't

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Speaker 1: know of a mechanism that can create an image with

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Speaker 1: those chemical and physical properties. To this day, and all

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Speaker 1: the attempts in the last forty or so years to

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Speaker 1: duplicate the shroud, many by people using one of my

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Speaker 1: photographs of the shroud is a basis for their work,

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Speaker 1: no one has ever come close to matching all of

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Speaker 1: the chemical and physical properties of the Shroud's image. Several

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Speaker 1: years ago she and ended a documentary basically called Finding Jesus,

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Speaker 1: and they highlighted the Shroud. What were their conclusions very well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I hate to say it, but I've pretty

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Speaker 1: much given up on television documentaries about the Shroud, and

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Speaker 1: George I've appeared in about twentieth I know, yeah, And

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Speaker 1: you know, I can only recommend too after all that,

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Speaker 1: And so I was not very happy with that particular

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Speaker 1: documentary because they dug out some very visual things that

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Speaker 1: had long before been proven erroneous, one of them being

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Speaker 1: the theory of a gentleman named Nicholas Allen, a South

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Speaker 1: African art historian, who claims that the Shroud was made

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Speaker 1: photographically and ironically, he said that they used silver and

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Speaker 1: then they remove all the silver and fixed the image

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Speaker 1: using the man's urine. So effectively, Nicholas Allen said, they

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Speaker 1: created the shroud of urine. I guess at any rate,

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Speaker 1: the frustration is this, there is only one property of

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Speaker 1: the Shrouds image that is similar to a photograph, and

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Speaker 1: that's the lights and dark reversal that we've already mentioned.

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Speaker 1: But every other aspect of that image is unlike any

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Speaker 1: other photograph that I've ever seen, and I've seen quite

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Speaker 1: a few in my almost fifty year career. Probably the

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Speaker 1: most unique property the image, the property of the image

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Speaker 1: that hooked me when they asked me to join the team,

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Speaker 1: That the property that ultimately sort of prompted me to

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Speaker 1: actually join that team is the fact that there's spatial

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Speaker 1: or depth information or topographic information often referred to as

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Speaker 1: three D information, encoded into the lights and darks of

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Speaker 1: the shrouds image. And that's something that no one has

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Speaker 1: been able to duplicate, and there's no simple solution to

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Speaker 1: how an image might form that way. Listen to more

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Speaker 1: Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at one a m.

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Speaker 1: Eastern and go to Coast to Coast am dot com

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Speaker 1: for more