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Speaker 1: Is there anything you had to unlearn? What is something

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Speaker 1: you've had to unlearn about dating, sex, women's health, friendship?

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Speaker 1: What is one thing you've had to unlearn about love?

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Speaker 1: As Voiceover approaches our first new year, it's time to

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Speaker 1: reflect on our favorite question, what have we unlearned about love?

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Speaker 1: I'm hopewordered and welcome to voice Over, a space where

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Speaker 1: we're learning and unlearning all the myths we're taught about

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Speaker 1: love and relationships. Voiceover was always less of a project

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Speaker 1: about giving up men and more of an exercise and

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Speaker 1: unlearning all lessons we've been taught about love. Personally, I've

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Speaker 1: been struggling with unlearning so many things, like having trust issues.

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Speaker 1: I'm working on trusting, like maybe moving a little bit

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Speaker 1: slower I jump into quickly, like I'm working on unlearning codependents.

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Speaker 1: That's why I started asking all of our guests this

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Speaker 1: signature question selfishly, I want to absorb the wisdom of

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Speaker 1: all the brilliant people I get to talk to. So far,

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Speaker 1: it's been working. We've talked to so many people with

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Speaker 1: wildly different life experiences and areas of expertise, and I've

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Speaker 1: savored the lessons each person shared today to make sure

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Speaker 1: it all really sinks in We're bringing you a collection

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Speaker 1: of some of our favorite answers, plus one that you

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Speaker 1: haven't heard before. Let's start with singer songwriter Jensen McCrae.

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Speaker 1: What is something you've had to unlearn about love?

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Speaker 2: I mean, one of the biggest things is just that, like,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't solve anything other than the problem of the

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Speaker 2: lack of romantic love. The only thing getting into a

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Speaker 2: relationship does is it solves the problem of you being single,

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Speaker 2: which doesn't have to be a problem if you don't.

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Speaker 3: Want to be.

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Speaker 2: I know, historically I have thought, like before I ever

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Speaker 2: got into a serious relationship, or when periods where I

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Speaker 2: was feeling really lonely, I was like, oh, if I

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Speaker 2: just got a boyfriend, then all of this other stuff

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Speaker 2: I'd be able to deal with everything else will disappear.

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Speaker 2: I guess that's the other big thing if I had

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Speaker 2: to learn is like you don't have to be consumed,

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Speaker 2: because like it's very easy to be consumed when you're

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Speaker 2: being rejected, right, Like you're very consumed by like oh,

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Speaker 2: he didn't text me, like he didn't call me, he

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Speaker 2: didn't make another date. Right, But it's like it's also

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Speaker 2: easy to be consumed when like he is texting and

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Speaker 2: calling and making another date, because it's like you're it's

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Speaker 2: all right there. And so like I've been very conscious

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Speaker 2: of really making time to be by myself and really

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Speaker 2: being present on all the travel that I've been doing

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Speaker 2: for work, Like I was playing with Hosier and like

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Speaker 2: I was going to this movie premiere, and like in

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Speaker 2: the moments when I'm doing that stuff, I'm like, he

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Speaker 2: is not on my mind. I am one hundred percent

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Speaker 2: locked in on this thing that I'm doing because these

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Speaker 2: are the memories when I'm an old lady, Like I'm

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Speaker 2: going to be remembering like totally stuff like frankly, like

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Speaker 2: not to make like my life is about work, but

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Speaker 2: like this is like all my happiest memories of my

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Speaker 2: ODLD life or my work, right, And it's like I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to remember, like to stay focused and like really

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Speaker 2: take mental screenshots of all of the tactile experiences of

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Speaker 2: being on those stages and being in those rooms, because

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Speaker 2: like that is what really fills me.

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Speaker 4: Honestly, I think I had to unlearn like my expectations.

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Speaker 4: I remember when I graduated high school, I was like, finally,

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Speaker 4: college is when I'm going to get a boyfriend, yeah,

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Speaker 4: and then like I didn't for the first two years,

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Speaker 4: and I was like what. And then I was like, well,

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Speaker 4: after college, like when I graduate adult life, that's when

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Speaker 4: I'm gonna get a friend. And then I was like what, no,

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Speaker 4: not again. I remember I was talking to my friend

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Speaker 4: who's also in comedy but like three years ahead of me.

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Speaker 4: This is like back when I was twenty two, I

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Speaker 4: was like, thinking, twenty six, that's when I'm going to

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Speaker 4: get a boyfriend. And she was like, don't count on that. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 4: She was like it's hard for us girls, and she

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Speaker 4: was like, I wouldn't count on like getting a boyfriend

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Speaker 4: any So. I think that's also like the times when

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Speaker 4: I did feel lonely or yearning, it was because like

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Speaker 4: in my head, I envisioned this period of my life

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Speaker 4: like with a partner, and then when it didn't happen,

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Speaker 4: I was just like.

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Speaker 1: What come on, this is crazy.

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Speaker 4: But I'm twenty six. Yeah, so I think unlearning that

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Speaker 4: and I think that's also why I feel like I'm

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Speaker 4: ready now of like I don't carry those expectations anymore. Obviously,

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Speaker 4: I would love to find love and a partner I'm

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Speaker 4: open to it, but I'm not. I don't like, look

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Speaker 4: at the next three years and I'm like, well, this

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Speaker 4: is when I'm gonna get a boyfriend, because right, what

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Speaker 4: I've been proven in the past is often it's not right.

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Speaker 4: Often that's not the case.

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Speaker 1: Kind of just don't look for it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't look for it.

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Speaker 5: The biggest thing that I've had to unlearn about dating

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Speaker 5: is that but I had to learn that I'm datable.

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Speaker 6: It's all for me.

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Speaker 5: I mean, I spent most of my life telling myself

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Speaker 5: I didn't deserve love, that no one was gonna love me,

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Speaker 5: and that I truly was someone that they should be

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Speaker 5: embarrassed about because of like my body or how I

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Speaker 5: viewed myself. So the last I would say, like ten years,

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Speaker 5: has been every day showing up and loving myself the

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Speaker 5: way that I hope someone will one day. I mean,

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Speaker 5: I really want to find love, and now I'm getting

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Speaker 5: closer to understanding what that actually looks like for me.

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Speaker 7: I think I really had to unlearn like rules or

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Speaker 7: advice as I entered which is now my first real relationship,

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Speaker 7: and just listen to like my own intuition, which I

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Speaker 7: lost for a while. You know, being like a very

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Speaker 7: independent young woman, and when I started dating, it was

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Speaker 7: like I felt like I was losing that part of

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Speaker 7: me because I was trying to like appeal to men

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Speaker 7: so hard. She now relates to the voice sober of

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Speaker 7: it all, like always trying to appeal to the male gaze,

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Speaker 7: and so when I would go on dates, I would

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Speaker 7: just try to be getting that to like me. Of

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Speaker 7: course didn't fucking matter if I liked them or whatever.

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Speaker 7: You know, I was performing. I'm sure they had a

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Speaker 7: good time, but like I didn't get shit out of it.

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Speaker 7: So I really had to kind of figure out, like

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Speaker 7: how do I become Like how do I date without

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Speaker 7: losing like who I am, you know, changing what I

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Speaker 7: talk about. Maybe I don't talk about politics. Maybe I

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Speaker 7: like really lean into what they like and pretend I

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Speaker 7: give a fuck about this sports team that I don't

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Speaker 7: care about. So it was tough. Yeah, I feel like

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Speaker 7: the early days, I was just so in my head

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Speaker 7: about like really grasping and like white knuckling it, like

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Speaker 7: wanting it to work out so badly.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember like what your rules were in the

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Speaker 1: earlier parts of your like dating history in New York?

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Speaker 7: I think just like rules about like if a guy

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Speaker 7: does this, he likes you, or make sure that you

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Speaker 7: do this or make sure whatever, and like it's so situational,

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Speaker 7: you know, and also especially like the if a man

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Speaker 7: doesn't do this, that means he doesn't like you, like

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Speaker 7: chasing and attracting or like that. And I'm like, I'm

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Speaker 7: trying to think of all these corny TikTok phrases like

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Speaker 7: he wanted to he was right. I'm like, Okay, well

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Speaker 7: I want to, or maybe he doesn't have the time

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Speaker 7: or the confidence or whatever. So I think just on

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Speaker 7: learning that because I feel like a lot of those

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Speaker 7: rules are trying to protect you, like make you feel

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Speaker 7: like you have control over something, and it's like at

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Speaker 7: the end of the day, like it can change so quickly,

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Speaker 7: like they can. I mean, you can dump me whenever

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Speaker 7: you want, right and to feel like you are almost

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Speaker 7: like have this knowledge about what's going to happen and

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Speaker 7: you can like give a magic eight ball, you're predicting it.

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Speaker 7: I think that's what the rules were like doing versus

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Speaker 7: being like in the moment.

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Speaker 8: One thing that I had to unlearn about love was

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Speaker 8: that words are just words and it's all about the actions.

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Speaker 1: Hmmm.

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Speaker 8: I spent a lot of time on the apps trying

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Speaker 8: to word smith to get someone to really like me,

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Speaker 8: and I realized that that wasn't doing anything. It's about

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Speaker 8: the actions. So I learned to just show up and listen,

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Speaker 8: as opposed to winning over in words I.

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Speaker 1: Love that, don't say, just do.

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Speaker 3: I didn't realize how much I was adjusting myself to

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Speaker 3: assumed expectations of the other. And I don't blame that

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Speaker 3: on anyone but myself, but I've realized through the past

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Speaker 3: several months of dating that it's impossible. You have to

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Speaker 3: show up as your authentic self. It's all you have,

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Speaker 3: and any sort of put upon is unsustainable.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, what do you put on airs about? Let's see?

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Speaker 9: Oh god, it's weird. I feel like I do a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of mirroring me too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Uh, and.

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Speaker 3: I feel I don't know, I feel like I sort

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Speaker 3: of shrink myself.

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Speaker 8: Yes.

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Speaker 3: And a realization that I had a while ago also

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Speaker 3: was that I have power, and then I give it

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Speaker 3: away as fast as I can. As soon as I

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Speaker 3: feel like I have some power, I feel like I

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Speaker 3: have to get rid of it, and that it's not

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Speaker 3: safe with me. Why do you think that is obsessed

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Speaker 3: with compulsive disorder, and just a lot of shame and

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Speaker 3: fear about my own mistakes and ways that I've hurt people,

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Speaker 3: hurt my exes, hurt friends, so hard to get away

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Speaker 3: from the idea that I'm not a bad person.

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Speaker 1: That's self forgiveness.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we have to do it, We have to do it,

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Speaker 3: We have to.

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Speaker 1: What do you feel like is one of the biggest

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Speaker 1: things you've had to learn about love? Mmm?

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Speaker 10: Okay, So one of the things that is coming to

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Speaker 10: me that I didn't believe until I met my current

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Speaker 10: partner is this whole idea of you need to love

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Speaker 10: yourself before you can be loved by someone. I think

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Speaker 10: there's a huge asterisk in that statement for me, because

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Speaker 10: I think that there are moments where I don't love myself,

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Speaker 10: and there have been years where I didn't see my

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Speaker 10: own self worth. And it was my partner, it was

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Speaker 10: my friends who reminded me that I am worthy of

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Speaker 10: love and being cared for. And I think our society

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Speaker 10: wants us to constantly hunger for self love and depend

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Speaker 10: only on ourselves to have that sense of fulfillment and

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Speaker 10: to have the conviction that we are worthy of love

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Speaker 10: and respect and dignity, and I think that's a really

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Speaker 10: really difficult challenge. I think we need each other to.

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Speaker 11: Feel loved, to feel like we are worthy of dignity

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Speaker 11: and freedom. So I would say that you can love

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Speaker 11: even when you are not capable of loving yourself at

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Speaker 11: the time, and I think you are.

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Speaker 10: Also capable of receiving love even when you.

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Speaker 2: Don't think you deserve it.

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Speaker 1: One of my favorite things about this question is that

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Speaker 1: it brought up lessons on all kinds of love, Because

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Speaker 1: the biggest myth of all is that you should get

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Speaker 1: all the love you need from one romantic partner, but friends, family,

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Speaker 1: and self love are maybe even more important when it

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Speaker 1: comes to building a full life. I'm grateful that a

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Speaker 1: lot of guests have highlighted that in their answers. So

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Speaker 1: here's some tell us lessons about more than just romantic love.

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Speaker 1: First up is Michelle Ellman, author of Bad Friend. What

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Speaker 1: is like one of the biggest things you've had to

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Speaker 1: unlearn when it comes to love.

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Speaker 12: That it needs to be forever for it to count.

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Speaker 1: Mmmm say more.

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Speaker 12: Yeah, I'm saying that the idea that you have a

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Speaker 12: ten year friendship and even if it ends in this

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Speaker 12: blowout fight where you hurt each other to a like

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Speaker 12: at a level that like neither of you can forget it.

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Speaker 12: It doesn't awaits the ten years where you had good friendship.

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Speaker 12: The way that we viewed in our society of like

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Speaker 12: a failed marriage. Who said the marriage was a failure? Like,

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Speaker 12: who said that it ended it and all of it

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Speaker 12: is no good? Like, maybe the longevity of a relationship

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Speaker 12: is not the marker of success. But let's say you

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Speaker 12: have a ten year marriage and then you end the

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Speaker 12: marriage and you have a divorce that can be healthier

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Speaker 12: than the forty five marriage where you yell and scream

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Speaker 12: at each other all day every day, but you stayed married. Like,

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Speaker 12: that's right, the idea of forever like is the only

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Speaker 12: marker or success. But like, you're not looking at the

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Speaker 12: quality of the relationship and same friendship friendship breakups are

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Speaker 12: so demonized that it's like, but why are we staying

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Speaker 12: in expired friendships just for the sake an old friend? Like? Right,

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Speaker 12: But that person deserves to have that friendship ended equally

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Speaker 12: so that they can find people who are more aligned

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Speaker 12: with them, rather than someone who's like gossiping behind their

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Speaker 12: back and being like God, every time I see her,

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Speaker 12: I'm so bored, Like and this idea that like long

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Speaker 12: friendships are better, but it's like, but they're talking about

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Speaker 12: you behind your back, like why do you want a

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Speaker 12: friend that isn't a friend? Actually?

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Speaker 10: Right?

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Speaker 1: Can you speak to something you had to really unlearn

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Speaker 1: about love in your experience?

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Speaker 13: I will say I think that unlearning and I think

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Speaker 13: this is probably true for everyone, but I think it's

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Speaker 13: particularly true for women of deserving love that you can

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Speaker 13: just be loved that you don't. There's no romance story

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Speaker 13: where a woman has not had to do the I

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Speaker 13: never loved Bridget Jones the movie books Board the shit

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Speaker 13: out of me, and I could never hold my attention.

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Speaker 13: But that idea of counting calories, or when you rewatch

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Speaker 13: Sex and the City and she's like, oh my god,

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Speaker 13: you farted.

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Speaker 7: I farted.

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Speaker 13: He's never going to love me, Like all of these

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Speaker 13: insane belief systems that are like, oh, I have to

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Speaker 13: deserve the attention or deserve love is a hard thing

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Speaker 13: to unlearn.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's also reminding me immediately of what you said

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Speaker 1: about Americans and earning vacation, yes, or earning rest. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: It's like we do have to really earn everything, don't

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Speaker 1: we The love that we get, the rest that we take,

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Speaker 1: the vacation that we go on.

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Speaker 13: And I would encourage everyone, and particularly women to like

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Speaker 13: so many of these rituals and expectations are rooted in

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Speaker 13: a history, all of history up until fifty years ago,

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Speaker 13: and then only then for certain conjure, society is women

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Speaker 13: were fully financially dependent on men. That marriage was an

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Speaker 13: economic decision to move through class systems that you did.

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Speaker 13: Your survival was so dependent on keeping the money earner,

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Speaker 13: whatever that looked like at whatever time period, that was

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Speaker 13: happy and satisfied that of course that you literally forget

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Speaker 13: about earning love. You had to earn your survival. And

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Speaker 13: we have confused that with love and a narrative to

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Speaker 13: make it look attractive. But these things aren't coming from anywhere.

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Speaker 13: And when I look at my friends, I look at

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Speaker 13: my mother's generation. My parents didn't divorce, but friends of

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Speaker 13: mine's mothers who did divorce and then immediately got remarried

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Speaker 13: or were immediately thinking like I have to be married

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Speaker 13: for social value or for finance, And I'm like, I,

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Speaker 13: who am I I can't pass judgment on this because

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Speaker 13: your financial safety dependent on this and of course you're

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Speaker 13: going through all these hoops, and we have now inherited

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Speaker 13: those expectations without necessarily the financial need for it, and

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Speaker 13: then we've confused it with many many other things. But

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Speaker 13: I think it's such the last my lifespan has bridged

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Speaker 13: such a vast transition in this, and it's all gotten

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Speaker 13: confused together and there's now a pushback to it. So

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Speaker 13: unlearning that it's like a privilege to be able to

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Speaker 13: unlearn that because I live in a world where it's

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Speaker 13: possible that I don't have to earn someone's love, which

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Speaker 13: is pretty rare on the scope of history.

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Speaker 1: What do you think is the most important thing for

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Speaker 1: us all to unlearn when it comes to sex?

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Speaker 6: Okay, So me and my husband had a year of celibacy,

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Speaker 6: and it was after we had already had sexual experiences

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Speaker 6: with each other, and he was like, you know, really

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Speaker 6: deep into his Christian walk, and I was like, well, look,

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Speaker 6: if you want me to join you in that, we're

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Speaker 6: gonna have to go all the way. I would not

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Speaker 6: do that again, and I'll tell you about it.

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Speaker 1: You did it for a year year.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I had a miss interpretation of what Christianity was

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Speaker 6: inviting me to do and know and learn about myself.

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Speaker 6: And what I thought it was going to do was

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Speaker 6: broker me access to the love I wanted, the type

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Speaker 6: of relationship structure I wanted, and I thought that access

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Speaker 6: and having those things would make me a better person

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Speaker 6: on the human height. So just investing in this idea

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Speaker 6: of elitism in general was what I had to learn.

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Speaker 6: Like being married is better than being single, being able

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Speaker 6: to commit to have sentence better than busted it wide, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, like, yeah, that's so funny, that true.

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Speaker 6: None of it was true. But together we've been together

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Speaker 6: for a decade and we both looked back on that time,

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Speaker 6: like what were we thinking because we have learned so

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Speaker 6: much together.

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Speaker 1: That's so funny. Did that year get you all closer?

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Speaker 1: Like by the end of it, Like do you feel

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Speaker 1: like you grew together in that time or was it

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Speaker 1: just kind of a time of like what was that?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 6: What we do?

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Speaker 1: What do we do?

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Speaker 6: Like I guess what I'm saying is I think we

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Speaker 6: would have grown together either way.

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Speaker 1: What is the like one thing that you really wish

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Speaker 1: people would unlearn about, like women's health, fertility, pregnancy, just

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Speaker 1: like in this entire world.

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Speaker 14: I think that it's our burden to bear as women, right.

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Speaker 14: I think that it's shocking to me that in twenty

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Speaker 14: twenty five, every once in a while I'll still meet

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Speaker 14: a couple where the male partner may not want to

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Speaker 14: get tested or like it's not me, it's her. And

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Speaker 14: it's becoming less common, thankfully, but I still see it.

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Speaker 14: And I think that is the prevailing theme in all

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Speaker 14: of this is that women blame all of the negatives

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Speaker 14: around fertility and pregnancy health on themselves. Women often will

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Speaker 14: not ask for help. They'll often say, yeah, my periods

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Speaker 14: are normal for me. I mean, yeah, But then I

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Speaker 14: probe further and they're like, I've missed so much school

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Speaker 14: or work in my life, and I'm like, that's not normal.

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Speaker 14: That pain is a sign that something is wrong, right,

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Speaker 14: And so I think that we take on too much.

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Speaker 14: We are scapegoats. We are people that are often, you know,

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Speaker 14: just left to feel the blame and the weight of

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Speaker 14: it all. And I think that's what we need to unlearn.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I agree.

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Speaker 14: A lot of this is out of your control and

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Speaker 14: it's not your fault, right, And there's a lot of

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Speaker 14: things that in this world you put in the effort

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Speaker 14: and you get the results in your fertility relationships, Like

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Speaker 14: all these types of issues in our life which are

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Speaker 14: so important, aren't in our control.

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Speaker 1: Before we end, I wanted to bring you one answer

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Speaker 1: that we've never aired before. It's with Jillian Morris, writer

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Speaker 1: behind the Substack, Super Nuclear and advocate for communal living.

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Speaker 1: She had a second answer to our unlearning question that

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Speaker 1: we didn't have time to air in her episode, but

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Speaker 1: it's worth sharing now as a testament to how any

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Speaker 1: kind of lesson about love is really a lesson about

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Speaker 1: how to care for one another. What is one thing

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Speaker 1: you've had to unlearn about love?

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Speaker 7: Who?

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Speaker 9: When I was eighteen, I lived in France. I was

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Speaker 9: pursuing a life. I was a musician. It was a

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Speaker 9: very different chapter. And I dated someone who is much

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Speaker 9: older than me.

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Speaker 1: How much older?

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Speaker 8: Oh god?

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Speaker 9: I was eighteen, he was thirty four. In retrospect, I

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Speaker 9: think he assumed I was out of college. I assumed

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Speaker 9: he was late to it. And when we found out

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Speaker 9: how old we were, were like, maybe we just don't

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Speaker 9: tell other.

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Speaker 1: People about this, Maybe we don't talk about all that.

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Speaker 9: Later, after a couple months, I found out that he

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Speaker 9: was married. I did not know. I blamed myself completely.

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Speaker 9: I was like, I'm a home wrecker, I'm a terrible person.

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Speaker 9: How could I fall for this person who was cheating

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Speaker 9: on his wife? And I really blamed myself for that

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Speaker 9: for a really long time, and I think it also

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Speaker 9: made me kind of feel like I wasn't worthy of

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Speaker 9: love or something. And I didn't have my first I

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Speaker 9: had my first boyfriend when I was twenty six, which

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Speaker 9: I think is pretty late, and so I felt like

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Speaker 9: one thing that I have definitely learned over time is

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Speaker 9: you know, a don't date that big of an age

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Speaker 9: gap at that age, Like, don't date eighteen year olds

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Speaker 9: you're in your thirties. Not good freaks. Yeah to the

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Speaker 9: men who are doing that, And also you know, with

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Speaker 9: time and perspective. First of all, I don't blame myself anymore.

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Speaker 9: I didn't know I was ignorant, so I really shouldn't

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Speaker 9: have punished myself so much. But also, weirdly, I don't

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Speaker 9: blame him as much. I don't think it's okay what

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Speaker 9: he did. But I also understand that relationships are very complicated,

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Speaker 9: and I'm not like an advocate of polyamory or non

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Speaker 9: monogamy or something like this. I think it totally works

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Speaker 9: for some people, and if it works for you, that's great,

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Speaker 9: and like understand that you have to do work to

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Speaker 9: make that work. But I have become a lot more

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Speaker 9: understanding of just like people make mistakes, people are human

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Speaker 9: and the important thing is to try to be a

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Speaker 9: good human and try and learn from your mistakes and

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Speaker 9: communicate through them.

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Speaker 1: So what has all this unlearning actually taught me? I

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Speaker 1: think my biggest takeaway from all of our conversations is

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Speaker 1: that love is personal. Learning is personal, and even though

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Speaker 1: we can learn from each other, we're all experts in

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Speaker 1: our own journey with love. But there's still so much

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Speaker 1: wisdom to absorb, and I'm excited to bring all of

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Speaker 1: that to you in the new year. Our team is

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Speaker 1: taking next week off so we can relax and reset,

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Speaker 1: but we have some big plans for twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for all the love you've shown

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Speaker 1: our show this year. I can't wait to keep making

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Speaker 1: it for you. Talk to you all in the new year.

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Speaker 1: Boy Sover is a production of iHeart Podcasts. I'm Your Host, Hopewoodard.

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Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Christina Everett and Julie Pinero. Our

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Speaker 1: supervising producer is Emily Meronoff. Our assistant producer is Logan Palau,

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Speaker 1: engineering by Bahid Fraser and mixing and mastering by Abu Zafar.

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Speaker 1: If you liked this episode, please tell a friend and

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Speaker 1: don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to Boy Sober

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Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, and wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your favorite shows.