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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: To me. It's a decidedly human story with all of

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Speaker 2: our vices and some of our virtues as a species.

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Speaker 2: How does a community essentially rise up against one family

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Speaker 2: and wipe them out? Why would they do that?

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold war Wicked and the co host

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Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled

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Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they

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Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true

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Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those

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Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold More

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Speaker 1: Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make,

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Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories

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Speaker 1: behind the stories. In the eighteen forties, an Irish family

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Speaker 1: lived in constant turmoil after starting a feud with their

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Speaker 1: entire town in Canada, and then much of the family

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Speaker 1: was murdered. Author John Little tells us about the Black

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Speaker 1: Donnelly tragedy. Tell me the patriarch and the matriarch of

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Speaker 1: the family who brought the family from Ireland to Canada

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Speaker 1: to begin with.

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Speaker 2: James Donnelly and his wife Johannah. Her birth name was Julie,

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Speaker 2: but everyone called her Johannah. I mean for one thing,

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Speaker 2: to make the trip from Ireland to where they lived

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Speaker 2: in Canada is about three thousand miles on what used

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Speaker 2: to be called coffin ships, where one in five people

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Speaker 2: in the ship would die from typhus or various diseases.

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Speaker 2: So if you could survive that ordeal, you were inordinately

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Speaker 2: party or tough. And then once you plumped down in Quebec,

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Speaker 2: which was the landing point, they then had to travel

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Speaker 2: five hundred miles to Ontario. And once they got to Ontario,

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Speaker 2: they were deposited in the middle of swamp and hardwood

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Speaker 2: trees and said have at it. You know, there's your

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Speaker 2: El Dorado. So they had to clear the land. I

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Speaker 2: mean stuff that we in our present day and age

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Speaker 2: really can't appreciate the amount of labor that went into

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Speaker 2: working a farmer, creating a farm out of nothing. And

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Speaker 2: so they were tough, hearty people, you know, Irish immigrants.

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Speaker 2: It's true that the father was sent away for manslaughter

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Speaker 2: and did seven years in the Kingston Penitentiary in Ontario.

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Speaker 2: When he went away, she had to raise the children,

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Speaker 2: and with no father in a Roman Catholic community, she

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Speaker 2: knew that her kids were going to get ridiculed by

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Speaker 2: their fellow parishioners the other children, because their father had

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Speaker 2: broken the fifth Commandment.

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Speaker 1: What happened with the manslaughter case. Who did he kill?

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Speaker 2: Well, it was a bit of a feud with a

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Speaker 2: fellow that came over from Ireland, and it festered once

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Speaker 2: they got on Canadian soil, and it really came to

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Speaker 2: a head as a result of a real estate deal.

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Speaker 2: James Donnelly really coveted a piece of property. It was

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Speaker 2: one hundred acres, but while he was paying lease payments

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Speaker 2: on him, the fellow that owned it decided, you know,

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Speaker 2: the market was just right to sell it, so he

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Speaker 2: sold fifty acres out from under James, which pissed James

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Speaker 2: off to know him. And then this other fellow decided

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Speaker 2: he wanted some farmland very close to where the Donnelly

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Speaker 2: farm was, and James Donnelly thought, well, I don't want

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Speaker 2: this guy selling them the other fifty acres, so he

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Speaker 2: got a line on a piece of property that he

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Speaker 2: thought would be great for farming, that this guy could buy,

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Speaker 2: and he was going to have a fellow pay him

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Speaker 2: for the property, and which when he got the money,

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Speaker 2: then would have purchased the property and then also bought

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Speaker 2: the other fifty acres with But when this other fellow

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Speaker 2: found out that Donnelly didn't own the property, he thought, okay,

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Speaker 2: here he goes again. Donallly's trying to take advantage of me.

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Speaker 2: So he ended up buying a different piece of property

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Speaker 2: and Donnelly was squeezed out. So there was animus from

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Speaker 2: the one farmer who believed that Donnelly was a criminal,

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Speaker 2: and there was animus from Donnelly in that this fellow

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Speaker 2: had broken his word that he was going to buy

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Speaker 2: this property. So they met at a logging bee, which

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Speaker 2: was not uncommon back in the day, where farmers would

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Speaker 2: gather and help other farmers clear their land of stumps

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Speaker 2: and roots and all of this, and there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of drinking going on, and eventually the two of them

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Speaker 2: retired and squared off. But they've both been drinking pretty heavily,

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Speaker 2: so none of the blows were particularly telling. However, this

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Speaker 2: fellow picked up what was called a handspike, which is

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Speaker 2: like a big staff that they used for prying logs,

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Speaker 2: and Donnelly recognized that, okay, this is escalated. You know,

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Speaker 2: now he's got a weapon. So he picked up one

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Speaker 2: and cracked this guy in the head with it. But

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Speaker 2: I guess the force was such he fractured his skull

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Speaker 2: and the fellow died two days later. So James Donnelly

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Speaker 2: was in a panic because again he has his children

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Speaker 2: at home, and a wife, and a farm that needs

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Speaker 2: his work, and now the police are after such as

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Speaker 2: the police were in those days county constables. And so

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Speaker 2: for a year better part of the year, he eluded

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Speaker 2: the authorities, and sometimes it would return to the farm

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Speaker 2: and put on a dress of Johanna's and work the

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Speaker 2: fields so that people would think it was her working it.

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Speaker 2: And out of the goodness of his neighbors, who didn't

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Speaker 2: want an Irish Catholic farmer prosecuted by a British Protestant

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Speaker 2: legal system which was at play in Ontario, they would

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Speaker 2: cover for him. They'd warn when the police were coming,

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Speaker 2: and so he eluded them. But then a reward was

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Speaker 2: put on his head, and he thought, you know, what

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Speaker 2: I can do the time because it was self defense,

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Speaker 2: and my wife can get the reward money which will

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Speaker 2: help her with the farm. So he turned himself in.

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Speaker 2: The constables renegged on the reward money and initially sentenced

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Speaker 2: him to death, but Johanna sent out a slew of

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Speaker 2: petitions to get clemency for him, and it was reduced

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Speaker 2: to a seven year sentence. So she had to raise

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Speaker 2: seven boys and the daughter on her own, and so

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Speaker 2: she taught them and hated in them this belief that

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Speaker 2: if anyone insults one of you, they've insulted all of us.

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Speaker 2: So you have to stand up for each other. And

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Speaker 2: so the family priorities became family first, then the church,

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Speaker 2: and then anybody else and that was it. Whereas in

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Speaker 2: the community, most of the immigrants that came over were

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Speaker 2: sponsored by the Catholic Church in the case of the

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Speaker 2: Catholic immigrants, and so they felt, behold the Church was

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Speaker 2: number one. You did what the Church said, and the

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Speaker 2: Donnellys were fine with that. But they also believed that Canada,

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Speaker 2: like America, was a new land. You know, you didn't

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Speaker 2: have to bend the knee to the old authorities. New land,

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Speaker 2: new start. So that started to create a wedge between

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Speaker 2: the Roman Catholic community in their area in Middlesex County

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Speaker 2: and the Donnelly family. But the Donnellys wouldn't take a

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Speaker 2: backward step. They were always family first. I wasn't in

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Speaker 2: the family's interests then, you know, don't bring it up

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Speaker 2: in front of them. They weren't interested because the boys

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Speaker 2: were all tough according to all reports. You know, they

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Speaker 2: were muscular and good dancers, good fighters. So they ended

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Speaker 2: up being quite popular with the girls, which annoyed the

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Speaker 2: other young farm boys in the area. And they're quite

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Speaker 2: willing to back up any and everything they did with

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Speaker 2: their fittests. Soon they became quite a formidable for us,

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Speaker 2: to the point where nobody wanted to challenge them directly.

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Speaker 1: They arrived in the forties, is that right? Eighteen forties,

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Speaker 1: eighteen forties. Yeah, So Johannah is in charge of seven

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Speaker 1: boys and one girl, and James is in prison for

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Speaker 1: seven years of hard labor for manslaughter. I guess she's

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Speaker 1: got seven able bodied boys who can sort of take over,

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Speaker 1: is it right?

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Speaker 2: Well, she was doing quite a bit of the horny

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Speaker 2: because the boys were very young, like they were very

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Speaker 2: young when their father went away and the daughter was

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Speaker 2: the youngest of all. She was only like a year,

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Speaker 2: so she couldn't help very much at all. And the

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Speaker 2: boys were most of them were at best early teens,

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Speaker 2: you know when that happened. So she was an iron

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Speaker 2: willed person and very strong and very tough. Smoked pipe

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Speaker 2: and was not one to hold her tongue, you know,

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Speaker 2: to suffer fools lightly at all. She didn't have time

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Speaker 2: for that, you know, to be honest, And so the

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Speaker 2: boys were fiercely loyal to their mother, of course, and

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Speaker 2: to the family unit. In time, the Donnelly farm was

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Speaker 2: one of the most successful in the area, and it

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Speaker 2: was mainly due to the industry of the family. They

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Speaker 2: were all hard working, you know, most of the farmers

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Speaker 2: in the area were hardworking, but the Donnelly's exceptionally so

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Speaker 2: because their crop yield exceeded any of their neighbors, which

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Speaker 2: further fanned the flames of jealousy, you know, in the area.

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Speaker 1: When James returns from prison after seven years, what is

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Speaker 1: that transition like for him? Is he welcomed back? I mean, oftentimes,

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Speaker 1: if you have a spouse who's gone for a long

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Speaker 1: period of time, things have moved on, life has moved on.

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Speaker 1: There's a new system in place. It could be a

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Speaker 1: little tumultuous. Does he just step right back into the

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Speaker 1: role as the head of this farm or did you

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Speaker 1: get a sense that there was any sort of tension

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Speaker 1: between James and Johanna for any of this.

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Speaker 2: He did settle in for the most part. But he

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Speaker 2: was older, and you know, again, I think decades of

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Speaker 2: farming and hard living had taken their toll in terms

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Speaker 2: of arthritis and things like that, so he knew he

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Speaker 2: was going to need all of his boys help on

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Speaker 2: the farm. Unfortunately, for some of the older boys, they

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Speaker 2: were of an age where they wanted to see more

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Speaker 2: of the world than Middlesex County. At the time, it

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Speaker 2: was common practice to go to the lumber camps in Michigan.

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Speaker 2: The pay was good, you know, the state and the

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Speaker 2: nearby cities and towns had far more to offer in

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Speaker 2: terms of entertainment and good times than Ontario did. So

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Speaker 2: some of the boys went away and would log, but

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Speaker 2: they'd always come back, you know, they'd come back and

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Speaker 2: help with the farm. And the oldest son, James Junior,

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Speaker 2: he was one who was who didn't bat an eye

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Speaker 2: when it came to violence. Just like his other brother

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Speaker 2: Bob or Robert. They felt that, you know, overthinking a

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Speaker 2: problem didn't usually result in a satisfying conclusion.

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Speaker 1: When do the Donnellys and the community where they are

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Speaker 1: stop tolerating each other and when does the tension ramp

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Speaker 1: up into a point where there is either a big

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Speaker 1: confrontation or many small confrontations that just escalate. Which one

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Speaker 1: is it?

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Speaker 2: First of all, it's a lot of small confrontations, okay,

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Speaker 2: And again it harkens back to their individuality in the

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Speaker 2: sense of not joining the group or the hurd standing

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Speaker 2: off from them. Two of the brothers started a stagecoach

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Speaker 2: line and that put them at odds with another Irish

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Speaker 2: fellow who was running a stagecoach line in town. But

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Speaker 2: the Donnelly boys were full of testosterone at that point,

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Speaker 2: so they welcomed the challenge. And back in those days,

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Speaker 2: if you could fight, and you were a good fighter,

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Speaker 2: you could get paid more to be a stagecoach driver,

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Speaker 2: because this sort of thing occurred frequently over passengers, or

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Speaker 2: when you're taking your passengers down a country road, suddenly

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Speaker 2: another stage you'd come and try and run you off

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Speaker 2: the road, And so there was a bit of that

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Speaker 2: going on. But the problem is that the main business

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Speaker 2: head in Lucan, where there was two people, two brothers,

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Speaker 2: the Stanley brothers, and they were the wealthiest people in Luken,

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Speaker 2: and they wanted political power and they also wanted the

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Speaker 2: commerce that the railroad coming through Lucan would provide. And

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Speaker 2: so anytime there was a disturbance in the streets of

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Speaker 2: Lucan that was viewed as bad for business. And with

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Speaker 2: the Donnellys, if the rival stage who tried to run

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Speaker 2: them off the road earlier in the day, when they

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Speaker 2: got into town that night, they'd go looking for the

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Speaker 2: guy and usually there'd be a big brawl, and there

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Speaker 2: were brawls. I mean, my god. There was some town

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Speaker 2: strong men who some people believe was brought in to

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Speaker 2: try and rough up the Donnelly's and back them off

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Speaker 2: with their stage enterprise, and that backfired because it was

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Speaker 2: like the Donnellys simply went after him. So there was

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Speaker 2: this big brawl and lawsuits and counter lawsuits, and there

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Speaker 2: were stages that were attacked and set on fire. There

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Speaker 2: were barns that were burned down that held the horses

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Speaker 2: for the stages as well as the stages. And this

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Speaker 2: went back and forth business interests in Luken decided enough

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Speaker 2: is enough, and this is a tight knit community, like

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Speaker 2: most people are related to one another, so if you

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Speaker 2: slight one person, there's least two other families that now

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Speaker 2: don't like you. And the same thing happened. There was

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Speaker 2: a Romeo and Juliet scenario with William Donnelly, who was

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Speaker 2: the second eldest son, and a girl that lived on

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Speaker 2: the farm next door. They fell in love and their

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Speaker 2: parents didn't want their daughter to have anything to do

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Speaker 2: with the Donnelly, so they forbid her seeing him. Both

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Speaker 2: of them respected the parents' wishes, but they continued to

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Speaker 2: correspond via letter. Eventually she begged William to come and

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Speaker 2: rescue her from her parents, who would not let her

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Speaker 2: out of the house, and so he did. Showed up

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Speaker 2: with a couple of buddies and four of his brothers

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Speaker 2: to the father's house and came in looking for it,

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Speaker 2: and the father had already moved her to some other

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Speaker 2: relative's house in the community. You know. The father ended

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Speaker 2: up getting cupped in the air. There were shots fired,

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Speaker 2: but this trickled down throughout the community to the different

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Speaker 2: families that were not related to the Donaldy. So pretty

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Speaker 2: soon they were the bad people. And then when a

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Speaker 2: new parish priest came to town, the anti Donnelly faction

250
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Speaker 2: had his ear, so all he heard was nasty stuff

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Speaker 2: about the Donleys. And once he turned against the family,

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Speaker 2: which he did, anyone that disliked the Doneleys now had

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Speaker 2: religious sanction for their cause, and that was the kiss

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Speaker 2: of death for the family.

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Speaker 1: Would the parish priest in Luken have been the closest

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Speaker 1: thing to government mayor leader? What did they represent? I mean,

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Speaker 1: was this the top echelon of the person who really

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Speaker 1: decides the trajectory of a town and who comes and

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Speaker 1: who's accepted in, how it grows and all of that.

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Speaker 2: Well, you've got to remember that back in the eighteen hundreds,

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Speaker 2: the church was everything. It was your social media, it

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Speaker 2: was your newspapers, it was your theater. People went there

263
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Speaker 2: to get married, they went there to be buried. There

264
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Speaker 2: were bizarres, so any type of social activity usually went

265
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Speaker 2: on through the church. The church was a big deal.

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Speaker 2: They may not have held official political sanction in the

267
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Speaker 2: nearby towns, but they certainly influenced it. And that went

268
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Speaker 2: both ways. The Protestant Church has influenced it as well.

269
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Speaker 2: When you have a parish priest speaking out against a family,

270
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Speaker 2: it's like being banned from your country exile. People weren't

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Speaker 2: even allowed to give the Donnellys a ride home and

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Speaker 2: their wagon from church. Again, once the parish priest came

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Speaker 2: on board, suddenly people were seeing it more as a

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Speaker 2: religious issue that Donnelly somehow disrespected the faith. They had

275
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Speaker 2: disrespected the parish priest, but really the Donnelly simply gave

276
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Speaker 2: the middle finger to anyone who disrespected them, whether he

277
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Speaker 2: was wearing a caller or he wasn't wearing a collar.

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Speaker 1: Do you get a sense that James and Johanna, as

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Speaker 1: the elders of this family, potentially having a little bit

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Speaker 1: more common sense, are at any time alarmed as we're

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Speaker 1: approaching the really big event that happens that affects the family.

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Speaker 1: Are they at all alarmed by this or are they

283
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Speaker 1: sort of one hundred percent behind whatever the boys are

284
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Speaker 1: doing at the time.

285
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Speaker 2: Johannah was certainly crushed by it. She was from Ireland,

286
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Speaker 2: she was from a Catholic family. She raised her boys

287
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Speaker 2: in the Catholic faith. So for the parish priest to

288
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Speaker 2: be against them and to refuse meetings to discuss it

289
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,640
Speaker 2: crushed her. James Donnelly obviously was sympathetic to how his

290
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Speaker 2: wife was feeling. But again, he was a guy that

291
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Speaker 2: had done seven years in case and so you learned

292
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Speaker 2: to be something of an individual there. And his attitude

293
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Speaker 2: essentially was embodied when one morning he was woken up

294
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Speaker 2: and told there were forty armed farmers on his property,

295
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Speaker 2: going through his silos and everything else. And you would

296
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Speaker 2: think if you woke up one morning and there's forty

297
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Speaker 2: people out in the backyard with clubs and guns and

298
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Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff, you might get nine one

299
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Speaker 2: one on your phone. Back Then he walks out in

300
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Speaker 2: the middle of him, you know, and demands to know

301
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Speaker 2: what they're doing on his property. And you know, they say, oh,

302
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Speaker 2: we had a cow was stolen. We think you stole it.

303
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Speaker 2: They kept yelling at that, and eventually he just said, hey, listen,

304
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Speaker 2: if you don't like us, he can kiss my ass.

305
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Speaker 2: And that's what he said to forty of them. So

306
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Speaker 2: he had no fear of these people whatsoever. He was taller,

307
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Speaker 2: and he wanted to know what it was like, you know,

308
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Speaker 2: what's the issue in the community that everybody's here. And

309
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Speaker 2: once he found out it was people trying to drum

310
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Speaker 2: up charges against him, which had happened as a matter

311
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Speaker 2: of course, at that point he lost his temper. Later

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Speaker 2: that same day, Johannah heard one of the people in

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Speaker 2: the mob say, we're going to go to William Donnelly's house.

314
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Speaker 2: William was the second eldest son, and he had moved

315
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Speaker 2: about three miles away at that point and was married.

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Speaker 2: So she took off on a back route on a

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Speaker 2: buckboard to Warren William that this armed mob was descending

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Speaker 2: on his house or would be, and so he went

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Speaker 2: inside and loaded up a revolver and then stood outside

320
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Speaker 2: and waited for this mob to show up, which it did,

321
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Speaker 2: and as soon as they saw him with a revolver,

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Speaker 2: it gave them pause, and they began to kind of

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Speaker 2: mill about and weren't sure how to proceed. Which William

324
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Speaker 2: was sort of the poet satirist in the family, and

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Speaker 2: so he found this immensely amusing and went back inside,

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Speaker 2: put the gun on the table, and took off from

327
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Speaker 2: the shelf of violin and played a song called Bonnie

328
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Speaker 2: crossing the Alps, which was in reference I believe to

329
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Speaker 2: Napoleon crossing the Alps or Hannibal crossing the Alps with

330
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Speaker 2: his elephants and army because these guys were too scared

331
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Speaker 2: to cross the street. He was a witty guy and

332
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Speaker 2: you know, sort of that almost quintessential irish ability to

333
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Speaker 2: see irony in everything and humorous irony.

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Speaker 1: What is the big event? Is it the big event

335
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Speaker 1: where we have a lot of people who are dead,

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Speaker 1: or is there something major that happens before that? Because

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Speaker 1: that happened in eighteen eighty.

338
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Speaker 2: Well, there was a couple of things. One the priest

339
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Speaker 2: began to show up at the trials. These charges had

340
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,520
Speaker 2: been brought against the Donolly's, including multiple charges for the

341
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Speaker 2: same infraction that had been dismissed. Their enemies would basically

342
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Speaker 2: just take it to a different constable recharge them. They'd

343
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Speaker 2: have to go to court and spend money to defend

344
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Speaker 2: themselves against But a fellow had moved back in town

345
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Speaker 2: by the name of James Carroll. He was a big,

346
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Speaker 2: tough railway worker who had been in the States and

347
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,480
Speaker 2: came back in an attempt to claim some land that

348
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,560
Speaker 2: his late father had left to his other siblings but

349
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Speaker 2: excluded him from the will. And when he came back

350
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Speaker 2: he was friends with a family that was related to

351
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Speaker 2: the fellow that had been killed by James Donnelly, so

352
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,240
Speaker 2: there was no love loss between his family and bloodline

353
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,640
Speaker 2: on the Donnellys, but he felt he was the guy

354
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,880
Speaker 2: to take care of the Donnellys, and so they created

355
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,879
Speaker 2: a posse of sorts called the Vigilance Committee, which was

356
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:35,040
Speaker 2: originally created for the express purpose of sort of tamping

357
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,600
Speaker 2: out any crime in the neighborhood. But one of the

358
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,920
Speaker 2: provisos was that if you signed your name on this

359
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,280
Speaker 2: list to support the Vigilance Committee, they would be allowed

360
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Speaker 2: to search your property at any time, whether you were

361
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Speaker 2: guilty or innocent. And William Donnelly, the eldest one, told

362
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Speaker 2: his dad, don't sign this thing, he said, because what

363
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Speaker 2: they'll do is they'll plant something on a property, they'll

364
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Speaker 2: come and then they'll blame you for doing it. You'll

365
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Speaker 2: go right back to the peditentiary. So Donnelly's didn't sign it.

366
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Speaker 2: And to the members of the Vigilance Committee who were

367
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Speaker 2: not in the inner circle, which were really the connivers,

368
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,200
Speaker 2: it was more proof of the Donnelly's guilt. Why wouldn't

369
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Speaker 2: you sign that if you have nothing to hide? This

370
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,600
Speaker 2: Vigilance Committee, there was an inner ring of them who

371
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:21,240
Speaker 2: were decidedly and virulently anti Donnelly and their job or

372
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,080
Speaker 2: as they saw it, was one of two things, drive

373
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Speaker 2: them out of the county or kill them, and that

374
00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,120
Speaker 2: was basically what is going to come down to. And

375
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,280
Speaker 2: so James Carroll became a constable and he made it

376
00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,159
Speaker 2: his business to do nothing but arrest Donolly's, sometimes on

377
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,040
Speaker 2: charges going back to when they used to run the

378
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,000
Speaker 2: stagecoach line, which was you know, six seven years previously.

379
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Speaker 2: A private detective was brought in from the city of Hamilton.

380
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,159
Speaker 2: This was a ruthless guy. His job was to spy

381
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,680
Speaker 2: and try and get dirt on the Donnellys so that

382
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Speaker 2: charges could be brought against them. And when that didn't happen,

383
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,760
Speaker 2: he kidnapped one of the Donnelly's buddies and hunt them

384
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,639
Speaker 2: by the repeatedly seven times, trying to get them to

385
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:04,879
Speaker 2: spill the beans on what the Donellys might have been

386
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,639
Speaker 2: up to. These were ruthless people. Their crimes fire exceeded

387
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,800
Speaker 2: anything the Donellys did, but it was pretty clear they

388
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 2: wanted the Donnelly's out, so James Carroll would be one

389
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,439
Speaker 2: of the big factors. He came in number two. The

390
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,800
Speaker 2: priest speaking out against the Donnelly's sort of bulled up

391
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,680
Speaker 2: Carrol and the others to think, okay, now, not only

392
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,119
Speaker 2: are they bad people, they're bad Catholics. Third thing was

393
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,160
Speaker 2: a barn caught fire just down the road from where

394
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,919
Speaker 2: the Donnellys lived, and immediately this vigilance committee said, well,

395
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 2: the Donnelly's clearly had to do it. The boys were

396
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,960
Speaker 2: in town, that's probably what happened. But all the boys

397
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 2: were alibied because they were at a wedding on the

398
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,840
Speaker 2: night that the barn burned down. So they crossed out

399
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,120
Speaker 2: the boys' names on the warrant and wrote in the parents.

400
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 2: So they arrested the parents and brought them to trial,

401
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,919
Speaker 2: and the judge said, well, there's no evidence they were

402
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 2: even on the property, and they said, we'll give us

403
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 2: another week and we'll get the evidence. Well, this went

404
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,399
Speaker 2: on for two or three court appearances, and at the

405
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 2: last court appearance, James Donnelly had had enough and he

406
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 2: stood up and said, okay, we're happy to come to

407
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,800
Speaker 2: court yet again, but let it be understood that if

408
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 2: you have no testimony or anything that's going to support

409
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,440
Speaker 2: those charges, we're coming back at you and we will

410
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,240
Speaker 2: sue you for malicious prosecution. That set the wheels in

411
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,919
Speaker 2: motion because the vigilance committee hadn't expected that they would

412
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 2: be in the wrong and have legal liability, and none

413
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 2: of them wanted to pay the Donnelly's.

414
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 1: Aside from James cracking someone's head open and killing him

415
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 1: and going to prison for seven years from manslaughter, what

416
00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 1: do you think is the most egregious thing legal that

417
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 1: the Donnellys did before this terrible thing happens in eighteen

418
00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,359
Speaker 1: eighty What is their biggest complaint Aside from that attitude,

419
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,919
Speaker 1: go to hell all of you behavior, what is the

420
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,199
Speaker 1: biggest legal thing that they did wrong?

421
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,399
Speaker 2: There is some evidence that Tom the youngest might have

422
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 2: ruled a guy for money after drinking.

423
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 1: Does that mean beat someone?

424
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,920
Speaker 2: Yeah? Just basically mean this guy was flashing his money

425
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,880
Speaker 2: around a bar and when they left, I'm pretty sure

426
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 2: that Tom and a couple of his buddies followed him

427
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 2: and one guy grabbed him, another guy hit him, and

428
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,440
Speaker 2: then they took his money and went on to the bar.

429
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 2: There is that, So there's an assault. The Rider wedding fiasco,

430
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 2: which was the Donelly's were friends with a family called

431
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 2: the Riders, and the riders were having a wedding and

432
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,840
Speaker 2: it was in the town of Luken, and of course

433
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 2: the reception was going to be in the hotels, which

434
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 2: were the bars. And at that point that private detective

435
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,120
Speaker 2: had attempted to arrest the Donnalys, but he didn't want

436
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 2: to do it. He had three constables and he said,

437
00:22:57,760 --> 00:22:59,640
Speaker 2: on this day there's going to be a wedding, they're

438
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 2: all going to be together. There's three of them. I

439
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 2: want you to go in there and arrest three of them.

440
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 2: So the Donnellys didn't know anything about this. They're having

441
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 2: a good time, you know. Suddenly three Protestant constables walk

442
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 2: into an Irish Catholic reception and announce in the name

443
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 2: of the Queen, which of course didn't go over too

444
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 2: well with the Irish that they were there to arrest

445
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 2: three donalies. William, it's actually interested. William had walked away

446
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 2: from his brother John when got a drink or something,

447
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 2: and at that point the police officers came in and

448
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 2: arrested John and dragged him out. And so William came

449
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,120
Speaker 2: back with his drink and you know, said word John

450
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 2: go They so a couple of constables came just dragged

451
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 2: him out of the establishment. William went out there and said, hey,

452
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 2: don't be letting that fellow drag you around like that.

453
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 2: So John snapped free from the constable and came back,

454
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 2: and that precipitated a huge brawl in the tavern and

455
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 2: shots were fired. I mean, William Donnelly had a revolver

456
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 2: in one hand of Shelleley in the other, and he

457
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 2: was hitting police officers and he was firing. The cops

458
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 2: were firing, and it wasn't a Donnelly member, but it

459
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 2: was one of their friends shot a police constable and fled,

460
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 2: and there was a huge manhunt. They brought out the

461
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 2: local militia, which is the first and only time I

462
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 2: believe in Ontario history that's happened. But they suddenly were

463
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 2: like the James brothers, you know, and everybody was looking

464
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 2: for them, and they ended up, each of them doing

465
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 2: sometime in penitentiary. William got out after only two weeks

466
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 2: because he feigned illness, I believe, after consuming a bar

467
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 2: of soap, and they thought, oh, for compassionate grounds, the

468
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 2: poor lad's dying, you know, better let him go. So

469
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 2: he got out and that further inflamed the priest and

470
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 2: the others who thought they'd finally got them put away,

471
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 2: but that in the barn burning their announcement that they

472
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 2: were going to countersuit that marked them for debt.

473
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 1: I find it so interesting that this family can be

474
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 1: both physically ruthless when needed to be an incredibly intellectual

475
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 1: in kind of a way to threaten or inactive revenge.

476
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 1: You just don't see that very often. I think, where

477
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,640
Speaker 1: you have people straddling both worlds of kind of brawn

478
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: and brains, Well, it's.

479
00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,439
Speaker 2: Funny, you know. I mean, back in the day, the

480
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 2: constable were as corrupt as anybody. It was sort of

481
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 2: a pay per gig. So if I said to you,

482
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 2: go and arrest this fellow and I'll give you a buck,

483
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 2: that was money for you. But when you went to

484
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 2: arrest him, he said, I'll give you two bucks not

485
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 2: to arrest me. Well, there's no arrestmate, And that's how

486
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,959
Speaker 2: it went. So the Donnalis knew that the constables were

487
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:21,199
Speaker 2: basically the lackeys of the town politicians, and so they

488
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,919
Speaker 2: didn't really have much respect for them. One time, there

489
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 2: was a fellow who was a friend of the Donnellys

490
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 2: who was on the run. There was some charges against

491
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 2: him for something and whatever reason, he kept getting protected

492
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 2: by certain people in the community and the Donnellys as well.

493
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 2: But then one day William went into town, into Luken,

494
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 2: and everyone was there, the constables and the business people,

495
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 2: and he announced he was getting married, and he had

496
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 2: his bride with him, and she had her wedding dress

497
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 2: on in the veil, and they were getting on the

498
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: train and they were going to Michigan. They're going to

499
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 2: have a honeymoon in Michigan. It was going to be great.

500
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 2: And off they went. And the next day William was

501
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 2: spotted back in Lucan drinking in one of the taverns.

502
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 2: A police consul went up to him, said, I thought

503
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,120
Speaker 2: you were having a honeymoon. I thought you were in Michigan.

504
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,959
Speaker 2: They sah, no, you know me, I'm not the marryat

505
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 2: kind didn't work out. And then the costle thought of it.

506
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 2: He goes, that wasn't a bride at all. That was

507
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 2: the guy you were smuggling that we were looking for,

508
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 2: and you took him to Michigan. And Williams said, well,

509
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 2: would I do such a thing? Come on you. But

510
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 2: that was the way they were. Yeah, they were tough,

511
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 2: but they were also very compassionate to people that caused

512
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 2: them no grief. They'd taken strangers, they were, you know,

513
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 2: the first one. If someone's farm was in trouble, they'd

514
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 2: be over to help out. That's just the way they were.

515
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you, I've done a lot of stories

516
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,120
Speaker 1: on vigilante committees in the eighteen hundreds in the United States,

517
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: and unfortunately, they don't seem to be very beneficial. It's

518
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 1: just like whoever raises their hand and is willing to

519
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: track people down with virtually no evidence, and it just

520
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: has always felt really ragtag and often turns into, you know,

521
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: a lynch mob more than anything else. So when you

522
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,719
Speaker 1: said vigilante committee, I thought, oh boy, they're in for it.

523
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: It's a group of people who have sort of their

524
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: own justice, their own brand of justice.

525
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 2: Well, and that's exactly how it came down. And because

526
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 2: the Donnellys didn't play ball, because they didn't get the hint,

527
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 2: they took matters into their own hands. And again they waited.

528
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 2: At the time that the vigilant committee found their courage,

529
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 2: if you care to call it, that the Donnellys had

530
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 2: thinned out quite a bit. Two of the brothers had

531
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 2: died all but two had moved away from home, and

532
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 2: the one brother was visiting William who was three miles away.

533
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: That left basically the mother and the father and their

534
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 2: youngest son Tom. You know, suddenly the Vigilance Committee felt brave.

535
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 2: Five years earlier, they would have been up against seven

536
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 2: of them. You know, now they were kind of scattered.

537
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: Well, tell me what happens, What night is this, what

538
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 1: day is this? And how does it start?

539
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 2: February fourth, eighteen eighty Their house had been watched by

540
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 2: committee members throughout the day of February fourth. The Vigilance

541
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 2: Committee had met in an abandoned school where they'd hatched

542
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 2: their plot, and the plan was that they would go

543
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 2: there and they would kill them, essentially, beat them to death,

544
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 2: and then fire to the house. That was important because

545
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 2: that would show it was an act of God. There

546
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 2: was a fireball that hit the Donnelly's, it wasn't you know.

547
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 2: There'd be no evidence of foul play that night the Donnelly's.

548
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 2: Unbeknownst to the Vigilance Committee, or rather throughout the day,

549
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 2: they had picked up a young boy about twelve years

550
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 2: old named Johnny O'Connor. He was going to watch their

551
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 2: livestock for them the next day, as the mother and

552
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 2: father had to go back yet again to trial for

553
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 2: this barn burning, so they brought more ore to the

554
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 2: house and John Donnelly said, well, listen, I going to

555
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 2: go over to Williams place because he has a cutter

556
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 2: like a slave, which we're going to need if we're

557
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: all going to the trial tomorrow. So he left it

558
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 2: a little after five o'clock. Around ten o'clock a fellow

559
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 2: knocked on the door who was a friend of the Donellys,

560
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 2: and a guy named Peely, last named Pheely, and he

561
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 2: came in and visited, but really he'd been sent there

562
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 2: by the Vigilance Committee, and his job was to find

563
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 2: out how many people are in the house, how close

564
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: at hand weapons were, and to leave a door unlocked,

565
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: and so he did, and he left, and then by

566
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 2: around eleven o'clock or so, everybody settled in and went

567
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,719
Speaker 2: to bed. And in the house where mister and Missus

568
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 2: Donnelly bridget Donnelly, who was James Donnelly's niece who had

569
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: just come over from Tipperary about six seven eight months

570
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 2: prior to that, Tom Donnelly, their youngest son, and the

571
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 2: strongest of the Donnelly brothers by all reports, and Johnny

572
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 2: O'Connor at about twelve thirty. Johnny O'Connor remembered waking up

573
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 2: and seeing a candle in a holder in the doorway

574
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 2: of the bedroom, and he recognized James Carroll, who is

575
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 2: now a constable, and he got the old man out

576
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 2: of bed and said, you know, we've got new charges

577
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 2: to lay against you. James Donnelly was somewhat gobsmacked. He

578
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 2: didn't know what to make of this, so he went

579
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 2: into the kitchen and once he went in there, he

580
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 2: saw that his son Thomas was handcuffed. So what Carol

581
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 2: had done was he snuck into the house handcuffed Tom Donnelly,

582
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 2: who would have been the biggest problem for them, and

583
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 2: then rounded up the father. At this point, Missus Donnelly,

584
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 2: who had been sleeping in another bed with Bridget Donnelly,

585
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: the niece because Johnny O'Connor was sleeping with James Donelly,

586
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 2: went into the kitchen to light the stove. When James

587
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: Donnelly came into the kitchen saw Tom, he said are

588
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 2: you handcuff Tom? And Tom said yeah, I thinks he's smart.

589
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 2: He goes you know, what are the charges this time?

590
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 2: And James Carroll said, oh, we got plenty of time

591
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 2: for that, boys, and they thought that's a really odd statement.

592
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 2: Right now, there may only be two of the Donnelly

593
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 2: men there, but you're in the lions den right now.

594
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 2: And this guy seems so confident. And suddenly the door

595
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 2: burst it open, and in came twenty five people armed

596
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 2: with clubs and pitchforks and axes and just started wailing

597
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 2: on the Donnelly family. James Donnelly fell first. He was

598
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: the oldest. They beat Johanna to death right in between

599
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 2: the kitchen and the main room. Bridget shrieked and fled

600
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 2: up to the loft upstairs to try and get away.

601
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 2: Johnny O'Connor dove under the bed, and Tom's Donnelly, with

602
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 2: his handcuffs on, was trying to defend himself as best

603
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: he could. He cracked this one vigilance member in the

604
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 2: which knocked him down, and that created an opening. So

605
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: he ran toward the front door, which went onto the

606
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 2: main road, put his shoulder into it, almost knocked it

607
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 2: off his hinges. But when he went outside there's a

608
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: group of Vigilance Committee members waiting for him out there,

609
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 2: so they essentially beat him to death out there, dragged

610
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: the body inside. Johnny O'Connor was still hiding under the bed,

611
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 2: and he heard them say where's the girl, and then

612
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: a group went upstairs and then came down shortly after

613
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 2: and said she's fine, meaning that they'd killed her as well.

614
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 2: And then they enacted phase two, which was the act

615
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: of God component they set fire to the place. So

616
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,959
Speaker 2: they poured coal oil on the bed under which Johnny

617
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 2: was hiding. They put coal oil on Tom donnelly's bed,

618
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 2: which was just off the kitchen, so they had fires

619
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 2: going on both sides of the house and then they fled.

620
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 2: Johnny O'Connor came out. He stayed there as long as

621
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 2: he could to make sure the coast was clear, and

622
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 2: came out, could barely see because of the smoke and

623
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 2: the fire, and was able to find his way to

624
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 2: the kitchen and go outside in his bare feet, and

625
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 2: this is February in Ontario, so it's cool, and ran

626
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 2: to a neighbor's place, and you know, they didn't believe

627
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 2: the story that he was telling until they went back,

628
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: and then the whole house was engulfed, but in the meantime,

629
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 2: the Vigilance Committee marched north toward William donnelly'shone because they

630
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: wanted to get rid of all the Donnelly's, and one.

631
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: Fell swoop and this is three miles away, right, three

632
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: miles away.

633
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 2: And William Donnelly they hated the most because he was

634
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 2: the brains of the family basically, and he was a

635
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: firm believer in the golden rule. You know, you do

636
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 2: one to others. So if you were good to William,

637
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: he was good to you. If you wanted to insult

638
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 2: him in the newspaper, he would insult you in the newspaper.

639
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 2: If you burn down as barn, your barn was getting

640
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 2: burned down. That's the way he operated. He was very,

641
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 2: very sharp. He was essentially their lawyer when they were

642
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 2: charges brought against him in court, and he always got

643
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: them on, even against better lettered lawyers. So they wanted

644
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 2: him out of the picture. And so they went up

645
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 2: to his place and they started to yell fire. And

646
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 2: William had a prize stallion and he was in the

647
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 2: horse trade. He was breeding the stallion in the back

648
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 2: and they said, oh, you know, the stallion's hurt fire, fire,

649
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: And so he kind of woke up, and his brother

650
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 2: John was in the house as well, who'd come up

651
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 2: to get the cutter and decided to stay overnight. And

652
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 2: John got up first and said, what's that racket? You know?

653
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 2: When he said, I don't know, and then John went

654
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 2: into the kitchen, opened the door to find out who

655
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 2: it was, and was met with a shotgun blast and

656
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 2: a rifle shot, which lifted him off his feet and

657
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 2: threw him back against the door jam. And then William

658
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 2: and his wife basically hit the dirt, and they didn't

659
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 2: know what was going on. They suspected probably was the

660
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 2: vigilance committee, and when he looked out the window he

661
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 2: recognized three members of what were the vigilance committee. He

662
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 2: didn't know what had happened to his parents at this point,

663
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 2: he just knew suddenly they were under attack. So when

664
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: daylight broke, he went outside to check on his stallion

665
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 2: found it was okay, and you know, his brother was

666
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 2: dead at that point, John Donnelly. And then he asked

667
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 2: a neighbor if he'd heard and seen anybody, and a

668
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 2: neighbor didn't want any part of it, of course, but

669
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: he said, I did see a glow south here and

670
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 2: William suspected right away that was his parents' place, so

671
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: he knew he wasn't up to going over to explore it,

672
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 2: so he asked a friend to go over and see

673
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: if his parents were okay, and if they were, to

674
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 2: tell them that their son John had been killed. And

675
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 2: he came back and said, sorry, now your family's wiped out.

676
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 2: And that's when the trials began.

677
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 1: At that point, tell me what happens with Johnny? He

678
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: gets out, he's the only witness. Yeah, so what is

679
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 1: the chain of events because you've got the entire town

680
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: against them, But there has to be some sort of

681
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: legal retribution I'm assuming for all of this.

682
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, William donnelly knew who he saw, so

683
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: he went and spoke to the conspitls and said, I

684
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 2: saw a B and C. I know these guys, I

685
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 2: know their voices and I recognize them. But word also

686
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 2: got out at this point that there was a witness

687
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 2: to the murder at the farmhouse. You know, twelve year

688
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: old Johnny O'Connor been hiding under the bed. So now

689
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,399
Speaker 2: the vigilance committee is a little spooked because the act

690
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 2: of God thing isn't going to wash. Now, this was homicide,

691
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 2: so they wanted to know who he saw. They talked

692
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 2: to their friends who were constables and said, you know,

693
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 2: try and find out what we're up against, basically, and

694
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 2: they hired a pretty powerful team of attorneys to defend them.

695
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 2: But having said that, within forty eight hours, almost all

696
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 2: of the members of the inner ring of the vigilance

697
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 2: Committee were arrested and they were in jail. The problem was,

698
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 2: back then it was capital punishment, so if you found

699
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 2: them guilty, you were impacting probably twenty families, yeah, and

700
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 2: twenty families that had relatives throughout the whole area. So

701
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 2: you weren't just seeking justice. If you decided that they

702
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: were guilty and should be killed, you were upsetting a community.

703
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 2: You were upsetting the businesses in the community that depended

704
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 2: on their coming to their businesses. You were upsetting the

705
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 2: tithing that went to the church. You know, the whole

706
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 2: enterprise was upset if these guys were found guilty. So consequently,

707
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 2: there were plans immediately that this thing had to be stopped,

708
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 2: this trial, and so they got a very good defense team.

709
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 2: The priest spoke out in supported them in the local press,

710
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 2: saying had to be an outside group none of my

711
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 2: parishioners would do such a thing. Surprisingly, I guess, all

712
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: things considered, it ended in a hung jury. There was

713
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 2: no convictions, but the Premier of Ontario, guy named Oliver Mowitt,

714
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 2: was very, very politically conscious and he was concerned that again,

715
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 2: if the families of the people that killed the Donnellys

716
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 2: were convicted, that was going to send ripples throughout the

717
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 2: Roman Catholic community, which was the second biggest minority in Canada,

718
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 2: and they voted as a block. So he didn't want

719
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 2: to risk alienating that vote, so he began to withdraw

720
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 2: his support as both premier and as the Attorney General

721
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 2: of the province, reducing the amount of the reward that

722
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 2: had been offered and not really speaking out against the

723
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 2: prisoners that much. And so he also ordered an immediate retrial,

724
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 2: which didn't really give the prosecution that climate needed because

725
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 2: the people that could have come forward and said yes,

726
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 2: I can tell you who was on the vigilance committee

727
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 2: and I saw them do A, B and C. They

728
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 2: didn't want to speak out. They were scared.

729
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, so the.

730
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 2: Prosecutions that if we could have more time, we can

731
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 2: work on these guys and maybe you know, protect them

732
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 2: or you encourage them to give us their testimony. Nevertheless,

733
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 2: the trial proceeded James Carroll who was the primary person

734
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 2: on trial, with the idea being that if he was convicted,

735
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 2: then they would bring the others up and convict them.

736
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 2: He was acquitted, that was the end of it. The

737
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 2: government was not willing to put another nickel into this

738
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:42,760
Speaker 2: political tinderbox, and the Donnelly's got no justice whatsoever. And again,

739
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 2: Bob Donnelly, one of the younger brothers who survived, followed

740
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 2: this jury and some of the Vigilance Committee members into

741
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 2: a bar in the town in London where the trial

742
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 2: was held, where they were all whooping it up and celebrating,

743
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 2: you know, how they'd won. And essentially it was like

744
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,040
Speaker 2: something out of the Wild West. He walked into the

745
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 2: bar and stood there alone and said, I'd like to

746
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 2: buy all of you murderer as a drink. And no

747
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 2: one would make eye contact with him, no one wanted

748
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 2: anything to do with him. He would have preferred to

749
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 2: take matters into his own hands, but they deferred to

750
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 2: William because William was the brains of the family. He said,

751
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 2: go through the courts. Bob Donnelly saw James Carroll walking

752
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 2: down the main street in Luken's a few months after that,

753
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 2: and just walked up and drifted him break in the mouth,

754
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 2: hoping that Carroll would get up and start something, but

755
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 2: Carroll didn't want any part of him, you know, And

756
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 2: that was kind of how it played out. But the

757
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 2: town still wasn't finished with the Donnelly's. Interestingly enough, you'd

758
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: think wiping out half their family would have been sufficient

759
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 2: for whatever revenge they wanted or whatever their motive was,

760
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 2: but that wasn't enough. The Stanley brothers conspired with some

761
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 2: of the Vigilance Committee members and tried to frame Bob

762
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 2: Donnelly and William Donnelly for an arson which they had

763
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 2: nothing to do with, and eventually that got dismissed as well,

764
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 2: and that was the end of it.

765
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: So what is Act three for the Donnelleys. You have,

766
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: you know, this family coming from Ireland who have a

767
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 1: hard scrabble life, part of which was just inherent to

768
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: where they were and the other part was self imposed

769
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: because of who they were, and then they go through

770
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: this incredibly horrific ideal where the majority of them, you know,

771
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: have been killed and then there's no justice. What do

772
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 1: people like Bob and William do when so much of

773
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: their family is gone and it's clear that they're out

774
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: numbered and there's not much they're going to be able

775
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: to do. Do they fade into the woodwork in the

776
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 1: history of Canada at this point.

777
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 2: Well, essentially the family had been so thinned out. At

778
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 2: that point. Bob Donnelly never forgave any of the Vigilance

779
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 2: Committee members. Neither did William, of course, but William had

780
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 2: a wife and a child and he didn't want to

781
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 2: raise them in that environment of hostility clearly that existed.

782
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 2: So they moved to another town in Ontario, and for

783
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 2: a time he was a constable, and then he became

784
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 2: a hotelier, still was breeding horses. Bob was a guy

785
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 2: that whenever one of the Vigilance Committee members died, he

786
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 2: would attend the funeral and go up and spit on

787
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 2: the casket in front of everybody. But he was also

788
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 2: again typical Donnelly. He was the guy that could be

789
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 2: as violent as he needed to be in any situation

790
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 2: and no compunction about it. But he was also a

791
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 2: guy who when he saw a crippled girl walking down

792
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 2: the railway tracks, you went up to her and gave

793
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 2: her all the money he had in his pocket and

794
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 2: told her she could stay with his family anytime she

795
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 2: wanted to. So there was that yin yang component to

796
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 2: the Donnelly family, you know that there was. There was

797
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 2: certainly a dark side, but there was also this kind side.

798
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 2: It's just too bad, I mean, to me, it's a

799
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 2: very all too human story. There are no heroes and

800
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 2: there are no villains. There's people that behave very badly

801
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 2: and ruthlessly. But it's something that didn't need to go

802
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 2: down like that, you know, I mean, really, the Donnellys

803
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 2: hadn't committed any even felonies in five years prior to

804
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 2: their death. They're minding their own business. They weren't bothering anybody.

805
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,760
Speaker 1: But that's the problem, wasn't It Is that they refused

806
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: to integrate into the community, like what the community wanted

807
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: centered around the church. Yeah, are there Donnelly's in Canada?

808
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: Did you search tam assuming.

809
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,320
Speaker 2: There are some relatives? Yeah, there still are some relatives,

810
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 2: but they're very distant relatives and most of them. One

811
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,720
Speaker 2: that I know of comes from William, a distant relative

812
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 2: of Williams, and the rest are from Jenny Donnelly. She

813
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 2: had a lot of kids. I think she had like

814
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 2: thirteen kids.

815
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 1: And Jenny wasn't there at the time. Did I miss that?

816
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 2: No, she was in an area called Glencoe. She'd been

817
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,879
Speaker 2: married and was raising her family some miles away from

818
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 2: where this occurred.

819
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: Of the seven kids, you have Bob, you have William,

820
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: and you have Jenny survived and then I know you

821
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 1: said too had died. Sort of what of natural causes

822
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: or what eighteen hundred causes is what I usually call,

823
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 1: which is a myriad of things.

824
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 2: Michael was killed in a knife fight.

825
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 1: Okay, there you go.

826
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 2: And James Donnelly Junior died of pneumonia.

827
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So there's no cubumferance at all for any

828
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 1: of these vigilant committee members. Nothing bad ever happens to

829
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 1: any of these people other than, like I said, eighteen

830
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 1: hundreds bad things that often happened pretty much.

831
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 2: Although you know, William was kind of an interesting guy

832
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 2: because he came back to London, which is where the

833
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 2: trials were, London, Ontario, And of course he was recognized

834
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 2: immediately by the press because this was the biggest story

835
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 2: to ever hit Canada, you know, this mass murder and

836
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 2: so this reporter went up to him, and you know,

837
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 2: this is five years after the fact, and said, oh,

838
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 2: are you still hoping there'll be justice? You know, William

839
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 2: will come of this. He said, yeah, we still hope that.

840
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,240
Speaker 2: And he knew that a lot of the Vigilance Committee members,

841
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 2: as Roman Catholics, were very superstitious, so he played to that.

842
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 2: He said, isn't it funny how a lot of the

843
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 2: people that were involved in the deaths of my family

844
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 2: have all met mysterious ends themselves. And he listed off

845
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 2: the top of his head about twelve people that had

846
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 2: died under very odd circumstances, and you know, sort of

847
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 2: left it with that with the reporters because he knew

848
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 2: it was going to get published, and he knew it

849
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 2: was going to bother you know, the survivors who were

850
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 2: still in the area, who were always looking over the shoulder,

851
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 2: providence to strike the.

852
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: Curse of the Donnelly family massacre.

853
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, if only there was. It's a fascinating story and

854
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 2: it's funny. I in researching it the various brothers, I

855
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 2: felt a tremendous sympathy for them for what they endured.

856
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,760
Speaker 2: But it also revealed something to me when the family

857
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: was killed. Based on what I had been led to

858
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 2: believe about these bloodthirsty Donnelly's, I thought there would have

859
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,280
Speaker 2: been a rampage, blood would have run in the streets,

860
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 2: But there was none of that. And the reason is

861
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 2: that Donnelly's weren't murderers. That wasn't the way they did it.

862
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 2: If you, you know, pushed on them, they'd pushed back.

863
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 2: But they were not out to commit homicide. They were

864
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 2: not a bloodthirsty family such as they had been portrayed

865
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 2: for over one hundred years. And the reason being that

866
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 2: the ones that told the tale were the relatives of

867
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 2: the vigilance Committee, So of course they had to justify

868
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,879
Speaker 2: the action. And the only way you can justify to say, well,

869
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 2: the Donnelly's they were mad. You know, they're crazy. They

870
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 2: were a threat to everybody. They're killing livestock, they were

871
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 2: doing this, they were doing that. That's the story that

872
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 2: got passed down for generation, which is why they recalled

873
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: in those days the black Donnelly's, black souled evil that

874
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 2: was unchecked for decades. I mean, I was fortunate that

875
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 2: a lot of the newspapers from the time that covered

876
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 2: the trials and Johnny O'Connor's testimony as well as letters

877
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 2: from their lawyers are preserved, and that was what really

878
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 2: helped me get the facts of this story rather than

879
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 2: just the legends of the story.

880
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

881
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

882
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: is Wicked in American Sherlock. This has been an exactly

883
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi. Our

884
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 1: associate producer is Alex Chi. This episode was mixed by

885
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our co poster artwork by

886
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and

887
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:10,240
Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at

888
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more and

889
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 1: if you know of a historical crime that could use

890
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 1: some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email

891
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 1: us at info at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also take

892
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: your suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words