1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Col Zone Media. 2 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 2: On the Saturday night before Labor Day in two thousand 3 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 2: and three, charter buses pulled into the lot at Cincinnati's 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 2: public landing. Passengers streamed out of the buses, one hundred 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 2: and fifty or so, mostly older white men in suits, 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 2: and they boarded the Delta Queen. It was a beautiful 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 2: late summer evening for a dinner cruise down the Ohio River, 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: and they'd spent all day cooped up inside in a 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 2: rented ballroom at the Marriotte near the airport. They'd paid 10 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 2: three hundred and seventy five dollars apiece to attend a 11 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 2: weekend long conference called Real History USA. But the history 12 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 2: they were interested in wasn't what any real historian would 13 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 2: call real history at all. This was the fifth year 14 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 2: in a row that disgraced historian and infamous Holocaust denier 15 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 2: David Irving had brought anti Semites from around the world 16 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 2: to Cincinnati. Over the years, he's been banned from entering Canada, Germany, Austria, Australia, 17 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 2: New Zealand, and Lithuania, but he seemed to enjoy the 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 2: Ohio River, and he came back to Cincinnati year after 19 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 2: year that weekend speakers ranged from notorious to obscure, but 20 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 2: they all shared a passion for Nazi Germany. Brigham Young 21 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 2: University professor Tom Catherall had to cancel at the last 22 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 2: minute due to a health concern, and I'm sure the 23 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 2: attendees were devastated to miss his presentation on Hermann Goering's 24 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 2: love of model Trains. Over lunch at the Marriotte on Saturday, 25 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 2: they watched Lenny Riefenstahl's Victory of the Faith, the less 26 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: famous predecessor to her infamous Nazi propaganda film Triumph of 27 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 2: the Will. The conference program notes that Reefenstahl is quote 28 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 2: still going strong at over one hundred and Irving said 29 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: that Reefenstahal sends her greetings to the conference's attendees. David 30 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: Irving couldn't have known then that his friend would actually 31 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 2: die later that week. On Sunday morning, the conference resumed 32 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 2: with presentations from Donald Bustian, an adjunct professor at Southern 33 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 2: Arkansas University and founding member of a group called Scholars 34 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 2: for Nine to eleven Truth. Before lunch, Charles Pravaan, a 35 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 2: theologian whose anti contraception writing is highly regarded by adherents 36 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: of the Quiverful movement opined on the possibility that a 37 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 2: self published book by an American Jew was actually to 38 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 2: blame for Hitler's policies in Germany. And that afternoon, David 39 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 2: Irving gave the stage to a young protege, an up 40 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 2: and coming white nationalist blogger who'd recently finished his master's 41 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 2: degree at Texas A and M University, Curtis Maynard presented 42 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,399 Speaker 2: his master's thesis on a lesser known incident from World 43 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: War II. The one hundred and four page thesis doesn't 44 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: actually mentioned the Holocaust a single time. It's not about that. 45 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 2: It's about a nineteen forty three German air raid on 46 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,679 Speaker 2: US naval vessels docked at Bari, Italy. But the old 47 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: man in the Marriott conference room probably spent most of 48 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 2: their Sunday afternoons watching the History Channel, so I'm sure 49 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 2: they enjoyed hearing a dry resitation of facts about planes 50 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 2: and ships. Either way, in two thousand and three, Curtis 51 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: Maynard was a rising star in the revisionist history community. 52 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 2: Sharing the stage with David Irving was a great honor 53 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 2: for an aspiring white supremacist writer, and in certain circles 54 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 2: his writing was well regarded and is sometimes still remembered, 55 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 2: but Curtis Maynard is best remembered for how his story 56 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: ends at the wheel of a nineteen ninety four Lincoln 57 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 2: sedan crash in a ditch with a bullet hole in 58 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: his head. I'm Molly Counger, and this is where the 59 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 2: little guys. When I started writing this episode, I thought 60 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 2: the story of Curtis Maynard would revolve around the revisionist 61 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 2: historians and pseudo intellectuals he admired, But instead I spent 62 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 2: most of this week reconstructing one man's disastrous downward spiral 63 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: after getting into a flame war on a form thread 64 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 2: about Ron Paul. I think, at its core, this is 65 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 2: a story about lies, not just the lies of dishonest scholarship. 66 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 2: No listener to this show needs to be told this, 67 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 2: But the Holocaust did happen. Millions of Jews, roma queer people, communists, 68 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 2: and political dissidents or shot, gassed and starved to death 69 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 2: by Nazi Germany. I have no interest at all in 70 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 2: engaging with the revisionist history of David Irving and his ilk. 71 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 2: There's no debate to be had there, Although we will 72 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: wade through a bit of the swamp they inhabit. No, 73 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 2: this is a story about smaller lies, about the gossip 74 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: and rumors that live in the comments on twenty year 75 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: old blog posts and ancient threads on hateful online forums, 76 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 2: about interna scene, squabbles for clout on Nazi message boards, 77 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: and debate within the white power movement about what kind 78 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: of messaging will actually advance their cause. And it's a 79 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 2: story that ends in a despicable, tragic act of domestic violence. 80 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 2: A woman was murdered, a child was shot, and children 81 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: lost their parents. It's a story about the violent speech 82 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 2: of violent men, men who talk about mass murder and genocide, 83 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 2: and how sometimes those men cross the threshold into real 84 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 2: world violence. This is something I spend a lot of 85 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 2: time thinking about. It's unavoidable, really, I spend a lot 86 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 2: of time studying the digital debris left behind after the fact, 87 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: after a man like this stops posting and starts loading 88 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: his gun. But that's almost always where I start reading. 89 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 2: I'm looking back in time. I already know what he did. 90 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 2: A few months ago, I started researching for an episode 91 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:44,479 Speaker 2: about a different man, a different murderer. I realized something 92 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 2: that seems obvious now. I just never really thought about 93 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 2: it this way before. When I study the internet footprint 94 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 2: of a killer, I'm looking at a fossil of sorts, 95 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 2: these posts preserved in stone, evidence of where he once was. 96 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 2: But those online ecosystems are thriving, busy places, full of 97 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 2: people who read those posts the day they were made, 98 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 2: people who responded to them. So what is for me 99 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: some kind of artifact was once an actual conversation between 100 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 2: real people who really knew each other, And when one 101 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 2: of them logs off for the last time, the ones 102 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: left behind processed that violence right there in the same 103 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: digital forum they'd spent years chatting. The story they got 104 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 2: me thinking about this particular genre of online conversation is 105 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: when I haven't finished. Fraser Glenn Miller murdered three people 106 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 2: in Kansas in twenty fourteen. He died in prison, convicted 107 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 2: of those murders, but he was He was also a 108 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 2: suspect in three other murders in nineteen eighty seven, and 109 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 2: was a central figure in the Greensboro massacre, where Nazis 110 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: and klansmen murdered five communist organizers in nineteen seventy nine. 111 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 2: He didn't pull the trigger in nineteen seventy nine, and 112 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 2: nobody ever proved he did in eighty seven, but he 113 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 2: played a part in those deaths. His hands were unclean 114 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 2: long before he opened fire in Overland Park. It's a 115 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 2: long and complicated story, with mountains of archival material left 116 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 2: to consume before I'm ready to write it. But on 117 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 2: the day Miller started shooting outside a Jewish community center 118 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 2: in Kansas, his peers saw the news. Within an hour 119 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 2: of the shooting. There were threads on Stormfront and Vanguard News, 120 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 2: the two most popular Nazi message boards of the day, 121 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 2: and in the immediate aftermath, a lot of the posters 122 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 2: were celebrating. They thought there were some dead Jews, in 123 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 2: their words, but others were skeptical about initial reports that 124 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 2: the shooter had yelled Hyle Hitler as officers handcuffed him, 125 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 2: and then someone posted the news footage of that moment 126 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 2: of the shooter yelling Hyle Hitler, and the shooter's face 127 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 2: isn't terribly clear, as he's being shoved into the back 128 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 2: of a police car. If you didn't know him, that blurry, 129 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 2: poorly lit image wouldn't really look like anything at all. 130 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 2: But they did know him. It was Brad Griffin, a 131 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: prominent member of the secessionist group the League of the South, 132 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 2: and a man I have my own history with who 133 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 2: recognized Miller first. The shooter wasn't just one of their own. 134 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 2: He was a prolific poster in their online community. He 135 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 2: was someone they talked to every day, someone who'd been 136 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 2: a significant figure in their movement for decades. And on 137 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: both sides, users were searching for meaning, and some said 138 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 2: they always knew this would happen, that he was going 139 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 2: to crack one of these days and do something like this. 140 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: Others insisted that the man they knew would never do 141 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 2: this and he must have been set up. Some celebrated, 142 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 2: some were disappointed, but no one grieved for his victims. 143 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 2: And those conversations seemed so unique to me. What a 144 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 2: strange window into this terrible world. They're deeply troubling, of course, 145 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 2: but surely those were an anomaly, I thought. But while 146 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 2: I was researching for this episode, the story I'm circling 147 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 2: around getting to this week, I saw it again because 148 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 2: four years before Fraser Glenn Miller made his last post, 149 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 2: that same online community reacted to the news that Curtis 150 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 2: Maynard had murdered his ex wife and then taken his 151 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 2: own life. But I suppose we should start at the end. 152 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 2: On April twenty first, twenty ten, Curtis Boon Maynard was 153 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: harassing his ex wife. It wasn't the first time they'd 154 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 2: been divorced for a little over a year, and he 155 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 2: hadn't reacted well to losing custody of their two daughters. 156 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 2: I couldn't find any coverage that included the contents of 157 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 2: any of those texts he sent Melissa Masa that day, 158 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 2: but whatever it was, she was upset enough about the 159 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 2: texts that she'd discussed them with a friend. That afternoon, 160 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 2: at eight twenty pm, Melissa's neighbors heard gunshots. Her middle daughter, 161 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 2: just twelve years old, ran to a neighbor's house with 162 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 2: her two year old sister in her arms. A neighbor 163 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 2: heard the commotion and came outside and saw Melissa, a 164 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 2: thirty four year old mother of three, dead in her 165 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 2: front yard. He was still taking in the sight of 166 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 2: his neighbor's body there on the lawn when he noticed 167 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 2: her ex husband, Curtis Maynard, pulling out of the driveway. 168 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 2: The neighbor dialed nine when one as he started his 169 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: own car following Maynard and providing his location to the dispatcher. 170 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: Officers who arrived at the house found Melissa's oldest child, 171 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 2: a sixteen year old daughter from a prior marriage inside. 172 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 2: She survived, but she had been shot in the face 173 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 2: by the man who had been her stepfather since she 174 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 2: was a toddler. Curtis Maynard was driving seventy miles an 175 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 2: hour down the highway when police caught. 176 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:37,959 Speaker 1: Up to him. 177 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 2: He ended the chase without ever even stepping on the brakes. 178 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 2: He shot himself in the head while he was still 179 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 2: speeding down the dark road. With the driver dead at 180 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 2: the wheel, his car slammed into an SUV that had 181 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 2: pulled over on to the shoulder to get out of 182 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 2: the way of the high speed chase. The mother and 183 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: her two children inside were thankfully uninjured. The irresistible and 184 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 2: unanswerable question in the aftermath of a tragedy like this 185 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 2: is always why Why did he murder his ex wife? 186 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 2: Why did he shoot his stepdaughter in the face? Why 187 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 2: did he take his own life? 188 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: Why? Today? Why like this? And there are no answers. 189 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 2: Nothing I can tell you will explain this, not for 190 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 2: lack of trying, But I can try to understand who 191 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 2: he was before the last day of his life, and 192 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: piece together the fragments of an online argument that seems 193 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 2: to have been the beginning of the end of Curtis 194 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 2: Maynard's dream of making a career out of being a 195 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: racist blogger. I don't know exactly when Curtis Maynard decided 196 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 2: he wanted to be a writer. 197 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: He served briefly in the US. 198 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 2: Army after high school. In nineteen ninety two, at the 199 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 2: age of twenty five, he got his associate's degree in 200 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 2: nursing began working as a registered nurse. In nineteen ninety six, 201 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 2: while he was still married to his first wife, he 202 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 2: started seeing the woman who had become his second wife 203 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 2: and only murder victim, Melissa Mesa was actually still married 204 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 2: to her first husband at the time, but they were separated, 205 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 2: and Maynard would later say he'd believed she was already divorced. 206 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: It's hard to piece together the particulars. 207 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 2: Of a man's personal life so many years before he 208 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 2: got online, but things were not going well. 209 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety seven. 210 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 2: Just as his divorce from his first wife was finalized, 211 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 2: a judge in Texas issued a bench. 212 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 1: Warn't for him. 213 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 2: He'd pled guilty to a dui in nineteen ninety four, 214 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 2: and he. 215 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: Got off easy. He didn't have to go to jail. 216 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 2: All he had to do was complete the DUI education program. 217 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: But he never did it. 218 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 2: So maybe he skipped town to avoid the benchwarn't maybe 219 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 2: he was just looking for a fresh start after his divorce. 220 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 2: But just as he was doing court in Corpus Christi, Texas, 221 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 2: he got a job at a hospital in Idaho in 222 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: June of nineteen ninety seven, right around the time Melissa 223 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 2: probably would have been realizing she was pregnant with Maynard's daughter. 224 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: He did something he should not have done. 225 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 2: And I don't mean impregnating a woman who was still 226 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 2: married to another man. 227 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: I don't care about that. 228 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: But according to a decision from the Idaho Board of Nursing, 229 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 2: one vial of demarole and one vial of morphine went 230 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 2: missing from the locked narcotics cabinet at Boundary County Community 231 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 2: Hospital on June twenty eighth, nineteen ninety seven. Missing opiates 232 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 2: are a big deal in a hospital. They're not something 233 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 2: that just gets misplaced and shrugged off. It's not a 234 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 2: lost pen. These things are carefully accounted for. 235 00:15:59,000 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: These days. 236 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 2: Every things tracked in a computer system, but even in 237 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 2: the dark ages of the nineteen nineties, every dose of 238 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 2: an opiate had to be signed for. There was a 239 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 2: record where every drop of this was supposed to be. 240 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 2: If those vials were missing, someone had to have taken them. 241 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 2: An inventory was done to determine if anything else was missing, 242 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 2: and a few days later it was discovered that two boxes, 243 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 2: each containing ten vials of morphine, had been tampered with. 244 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 2: The evidence was turned over to the Bonners Ferry Police department. 245 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 2: The hospital had their own investigation to conduct. They drug 246 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: tested every hospital employee who had access to that cabinet. Sure, 247 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 2: it's possible that a nurse who steals pain medication is 248 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 2: just selling it, but there's a really good chance that 249 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 2: whoever took that morphine was going to test positive for it. 250 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 2: Everyone tested negative, well, everyone except for Curtis Maynard, who 251 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 2: didn't show up for his shift on the day of 252 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 2: the drug test. In fact, he never came back. 253 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: To work at all. The police investigation. 254 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 2: Would eventually determine that Maynard's fingerprints were on the boxes 255 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 2: that had been tampered with. The morphine that should have 256 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 2: been in those vials in that box had all been 257 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 2: replaced with what the Board of Nursing decision only calls 258 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:44,880 Speaker 2: quote a benign substance, which I assume is a saline 259 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 2: solution or something like that. So the investigation was kicked 260 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 2: off because two vials were physically missing from the cabinet, 261 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 2: But in the end, it looks like a significant amount 262 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 2: of morphine was actually missing, having been taken from the 263 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: vials and replaced with something else. 264 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: And so if he. 265 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:11,719 Speaker 2: Hadn't slipped up and stolen the vial of demarole, they 266 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 2: might never have noticed that he'd been replacing morphine with 267 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 2: salt water, and hospital patients may have been administered an 268 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 2: unknown substance instead of their pain medication. By the time 269 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 2: those lab results came back, though Maynard had already moved 270 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 2: back to Texas, he was technically still a registered nurse 271 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 2: with a valid license in Texas. When his oldest daughter 272 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 2: was born in March of nineteen ninety eight, he was 273 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 2: working as a nurse at a hospital in Corpus Christi. 274 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: The Idaho Board of Nursing filed their formal complaint against 275 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 2: him that summer, a year after the morphine first went missing. 276 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 2: Maynard never responded. After months of getting no response from Maynard, 277 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 2: the Idaho Board of Nursing got a default order against 278 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 2: him suspend his nursing license, and before the Texas Board 279 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 2: of Nursing had a chance to suspend him, a standard 280 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 2: practice in most professions where if you're disciplined by a 281 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 2: board in one state, there is what's called reciprocal discipline 282 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,719 Speaker 2: in most other states. But before Texas could do anything 283 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 2: like that, he mailed them a letter saying I no 284 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 2: longer desire to be licensed as a professional nurse, and 285 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:28,679 Speaker 2: he voluntarily relinquished his nursing license before it could be taken. 286 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 2: The bonners Ferry Herald, a newspaper in bonners Ferry, Idaho, 287 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 2: ran several announcements in the summer of two thousand that 288 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 2: Curtis Maynard was wanted on a felony warrant for possession 289 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 2: of controlled substance and theft, but Idaho court records don't 290 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 2: show that any criminal case was ever filed. 291 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: I have to. 292 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 2: Assume that's in relation to the theft of the morphine 293 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 2: three years earlier, but I don't know how those pieces 294 00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 2: fit together. He did move back to Idaho years later, 295 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 2: but the five year statute of limitations had already passed, 296 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 2: so he was never actually criminally charged in connection with 297 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 2: the missing morphine. But in nineteen ninety nine, Curtis Maynard 298 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 2: had lost his nursing license in Idaho and given it 299 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 2: up in Texas. He was unable to work in the 300 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,239 Speaker 2: only field he had any real experience in. He had 301 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 2: a baby and a common law wife to support, and 302 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 2: he had a pretty serious addiction to alcohol and opiates. 303 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 2: After twenty eight days of residential treatment for substance abuse, 304 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 2: he did what a lot of people do when they 305 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 2: have no idea what to do with their lives. He 306 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 2: went to graduate school, enrolling in a master's program in 307 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 2: history at Texas A and M University. I wish I 308 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 2: could tell you which came first. Did Curtis Maynard set 309 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 2: out to write his master's thesis about a German air 310 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 2: raid on US naval vessels in Italy because he had 311 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 2: a genuine interest in this lesser known chapter of World 312 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: War II history, and he accidentally stumbled upon David Irvings's 313 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 2: work while he was researching or was he already familiar 314 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 2: with the work of revisionist historians and hoping to add 315 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 2: his voice. 316 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: To the choir. 317 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 2: I'm not sure there's anyone left to ask, but whichever 318 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 2: it was. By the time Maynard finished his thesis in 319 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 2: the spring of two thousand and three, he wasn't just 320 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 2: reading David Irvings's Holocaust denial works. They were corresponding. The 321 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 2: thesis not only lists three of Irving's books in its bibliography, 322 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 2: there are several footnotes indicating the source for a particular 323 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 2: claim is an email exchange between Curtis Maynard and David Irving. 324 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 2: Maynard's thesis isn't about the Holocaust. The word doesn't even 325 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 2: appear in the paper. There's no mention of Jews, camps, 326 00:21:55,200 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 2: gas chambers, nothing like that. The writing isn't great, in 327 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 2: my opinion, but I think he could have produced a 328 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 2: serviceable paper about a real historical event. I dropped out 329 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 2: of college, so to be honest, I have no idea 330 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: how the thesis writing process works. Maybe there was no 331 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 2: point at which someone read any of this in draft 332 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 2: form and asked him, hey, why did you write quote 333 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,959 Speaker 2: Without the works of historians like Elkafrolic and David Irving, 334 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 2: who conducted research in the former Soviet archives in Moscow, 335 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 2: there is a distinct possibility that we would not be 336 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,880 Speaker 2: privy to the uncensored and unedited thoughts, ideas, and words 337 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 2: of doctor Joseph Gerbels today. 338 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: End quote. 339 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 2: Because not only is that not true, David Irving is 340 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 2: not solely responsible for existing works of scholarship on the 341 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 2: diaries of Joseph Gerbels, but it's also just a really 342 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 2: weird thing to say. There must not be any feedback 343 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 2: provided in the process, because surely someone in the history 344 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 2: department would have clocked it as very inappropriate to drop 345 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 2: this line. 346 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 1: Quote. 347 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 2: David Irving's opinion cannot be dismissed easily, as he is 348 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 2: a recognized expert on the third Reich end quote. I 349 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 2: don't know how to convey to you how not true 350 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 2: that is. That is the not truest thing that you 351 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 2: could write in your master's thesis or history. Now you 352 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 2: might have been able to say it with a straight 353 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 2: face in the nineteen sixties. Maybe in the nineteen sixties 354 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,439 Speaker 2: you could say David Irving is a recognized expert on 355 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 2: the third Reich. 356 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 3: Maybe maybe you could still say it in the seventies 357 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,239 Speaker 3: into the eighties. If you're reckless, if you're careless, if 358 00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 3: you're not keeping up with current events, maybe you could 359 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 3: still say it in the eighties, but by two thousand 360 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,719 Speaker 3: everyone in the world knew that David Irving was not 361 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 3: a historian. In nineteen ninety three, Jewish history professor Deborah 362 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 3: Lipstadt wrote a book called Denying the Holocaust, The Growing 363 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 3: Assault on Truth and Memory, and in the book, David 364 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 3: Irving was just one of a variety of figures within 365 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 3: the Holocaust denial movement that Lipstat discusses, but he in 366 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,959 Speaker 3: particular took issue with her criticism of his work, and 367 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 3: so in nineteen ninety six he filed a libel suit 368 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 3: against Deborah Lipstadt and her publisher. David Irving is British, 369 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 3: so he filed this lawsuit in the United Kingdom, and 370 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 3: libel laws are different in the UK. I don't want 371 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 3: to get into the weeds there. 372 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: They just are. 373 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 2: But even in England, the truth is the best defense 374 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 2: against an act acusation like this. It can't be liable 375 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 2: if it's true, and so Lipstot's lawyers hired Sir Richard Evans, 376 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 2: a Cambridge University history professor who is an actual historian 377 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 2: of modern Germany, and Evans spent two full years, with 378 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 2: the help of full time research assistance producing a seven 379 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 2: hundred and forty page report on his findings. He read 380 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 2: everything David Irving ever wrote, everything David Irving ever said 381 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 2: about the things that he wrote, and ultimately Evans concluded that, 382 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 2: in his expert opinion, everything David Irving had ever written 383 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 2: was quote completely worthless as history, because Irving cannot be 384 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 2: trusted anywhere in any of them to give a reliable 385 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 2: account of what he is talking or writing about. If 386 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 2: we mean by historian someone who is concerned to discover 387 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 2: the truth about the past and to give as accurate 388 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 2: representation of it as possible, then Irving is not a historian. 389 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 2: And at the end of the trial, a judge agreed, 390 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 2: writing that Irving had quote persistently and deliberately misrepresented and 391 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 2: manipulated historical evidence end quote because he was ideologically motivated 392 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 2: to portray Hitler in a positive light and. 393 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: Deny the Holocaust. 394 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 2: So he sued Deborah Lipstadt for calling him a Holocaust denier, 395 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 2: saying that was libel, and the judge said, it's not 396 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:46,719 Speaker 2: libel because legally you're a Holocaust denier. So we lost 397 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:52,199 Speaker 2: the libel lawsuit. But even worse for David Irving than 398 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 2: losing the lawsuit and having to pay quite a large 399 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 2: sum of money. Was the fact that a small army 400 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 2: of historians had spent years going over his work with 401 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 2: a fine toothed comb. This wasn't the first time people 402 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 2: had found inconsistencies and inaccuracies in his work, but they'd 403 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 2: never been dissected quite like this. So all of these 404 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 2: professors and historians had read all of his books, and 405 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 2: they'd all written these reports, and they published those reports 406 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 2: as books, and they talked to reporters, and now all 407 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 2: of a sudden, it's very easy to find a laundry 408 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 2: list of the debunked, made up, and outright fraudulent claims 409 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 2: that riddled his body of work. So, no, there's really 410 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,479 Speaker 2: no excuse in two thousand and three for citing David 411 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 2: Irving as an expert on the history of the Third Reich. 412 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 2: That's malpractice. But maybe his thesis adviser was in a 413 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 2: hurry when she's still his bibliography, and she didn't notice 414 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 2: that he'd cited David Irvings's book The Destruction of Convoy PQ. Seventeen, 415 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 2: despite the fact that every copy of that book was 416 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 2: withdrawn from the market in nineteen seventy after Irving loss 417 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 2: a massive libel lawsuit. I have to wonder if his 418 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 2: adviser noticed that he cited Irving's Destruction of Dresden, a 419 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 2: book that had been a best seller in the nineteen 420 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 2: sixties but completely fell apart under the slightest scrutiny. The 421 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,159 Speaker 2: entire book relies on a premise supported only by a 422 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 2: document that turned out to have been a Nazi forgery, 423 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 2: as well as the personal assurances of a man who 424 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 2: had been a major general in the Wehrmacht. Apparently, just 425 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 2: finishing a thesis at all, regardless of what it says, 426 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 2: is the biggest hurdle. Because Maynard graduated with a master's 427 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 2: degree in May of two thousand and three, and just 428 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 2: a few months after presenting him thesis to the committee 429 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 2: at Texas A and M University, he presented it again, 430 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 2: this time to the attendees of the Holocaust Denial Conference 431 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 2: in Cincinnati. A few months after that conference, he applied 432 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 2: for the reinstatement of his nursing license in Idaho. He 433 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 2: planned to work part time while enrolled in a history 434 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 2: PhD program at the University of Idaho in Moscow, on 435 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 2: the condition that he attended narcotics, anonymous meetings three times 436 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: a week, submit to random drug tests, and receive quarterly 437 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 2: evaluations of his performance. He was allowed to work in 438 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 2: a nursing home near the university, but he left the 439 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 2: PhD program after just a few months and moved back 440 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 2: to Texas again. But even as he's struggling to stay 441 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 2: enrolled in school or keep a nursing job, his career 442 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 2: as a professional racist is really starting to take off. 443 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 2: In two thousand and seven, four years after David Irving 444 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 2: invited him to share the stage at the Holocaust Denial 445 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 2: Conference in Cincinnati, things were finally going well for Curtis Maynard. 446 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 2: He was penn pals with Ernst Zundel, the German born 447 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 2: Canadian whose criminal prosecutions in Germany and Canada had made 448 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 2: him one of the world's most famous Holocaust deniers. Maynard's blog, 449 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 2: The Politically Correct Apostate, was banned by blogspot and word 450 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 2: press every couple of months, but it always re emerged, 451 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 2: and the readers followed him to each new url. He 452 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 2: wrote prolifically, often publishing multiple pieces per day, and his 453 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 2: content was cross posted on the websites of some big 454 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 2: names in the movement, like David Duke, and John Denugen. 455 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 2: His writing appeared often on the website for Jeff Rentz, 456 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 2: a talk radio guy that I think you could most 457 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 2: quickly describe as a more explicitly Nazi version of Alex Jones. 458 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 2: But you've probably never heard of Jeff Rentz because he 459 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 2: got into a fight with Alex Jones in two thousand 460 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 2: and nine that ended with Rents getting dumped by the 461 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 2: network that they shared, Genesis Communications. Alex Linder, the webmaster 462 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 2: at Vanguard News Network, posted dozens of Maynard's pieces on 463 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 2: his site, and in April of two thousand and seven, 464 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 2: Linder called him quote one of the most active and 465 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 2: powerful of a rising generation of white writers. In July 466 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 2: of two thousand and seven, just weeks after his wife 467 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 2: gave birth to their second child, Maynard traveled to Sandpoint, Idaho. 468 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 2: He was a guest at a conference hosted by America's 469 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 2: Promise Minis, a Christian identity church funded by the sale 470 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 2: of Holocaust denile literature. The keynote speaker at the conference 471 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 2: was Michael Collins Piper, a regular contributor to the white 472 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 2: nationalist publications American Free Press and The Spotlight. According to 473 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 2: a write up about the event that was published in 474 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 2: American Free Press. Piper's speech was about Jewish control of 475 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 2: American politics conspiracy theorist Mark Glenn performed an original musical 476 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 2: number about Jewish domination of society with the help of 477 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 2: his five oldest children, and I guess it's for the best. 478 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:41,479 Speaker 2: But I couldn't find any video of that. 479 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: But I don't know. I'm kind of curious. 480 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 2: But Glenn was proud enough of this performance to include 481 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 2: it in his article about the conference, and the article 482 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 2: mentions Manard by name calling him quote a well known 483 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 2: writer dealing with the issues similar to the themes covered 484 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 2: at the conference, the themes being I guess Jewish control 485 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 2: of society, and the write up ends with a quote 486 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 2: from Michael Collins Piper, the keynote speaker, and he said 487 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 2: of the conference quote, it was obvious to me five 488 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 2: minutes after arriving at the church that once again everything 489 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 2: the mainstream media has said about North Idaho being a 490 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 2: haven for violent extremists and malcontents is all a big lie, 491 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 2: and that no better people can be found anywhere. I 492 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 2: wouldn't expect a man like Michael Collins Piper to be 493 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 2: honest about something like America's Promised Ministries. But I will 494 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 2: point out that there is a reason he felt the 495 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 2: need to counter the idea that the church was a 496 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 2: haven for violent extremists, because it was. In nineteen ninety six, 497 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 2: four congregants of America's Promise Ministries bombed a Planned Parenthood 498 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 2: in Spokane, Washington, and the offices of the newspaper The 499 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 2: Spokesman Review during a crime spree that also involved several 500 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 2: bank robberies. In nineteen ninety nine, a member of the 501 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 2: church named Beauford Furrow shot several people at the Los 502 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 2: Angeles Jewish Community Center before murdering a Filipino mailman as 503 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 2: he fled the scene. Those are both stories that deserve 504 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 2: their own telling. Beauford Furrow, for one thing, was dating 505 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 2: Bob Matthews's widow. But what I'm getting at here is 506 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 2: that America's Promised Ministries was not just a church. It 507 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:45,359 Speaker 2: was a propaganda mill with a body count. But at 508 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: this conference, Curtis Maynard was once again rubbing elbows with 509 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 2: some very important racists. One of his better known essays, 510 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 2: one called I Am a Holocaust Denier and I Am Unafraid, 511 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 2: was republished off and by multiple outlets, even appearing in 512 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 2: translation in an Ohio based newspaper run by a group 513 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 2: called the Hungaria Freedom Fighter's Movement. There really is a 514 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 2: community for everything, I guess now. This little newspaper, Sitya Kurt, 515 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 2: was published from nineteen sixty eight until the death of 516 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 2: its editor, Tibor Mayor in twenty ten. Now I'm not 517 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,760 Speaker 2: going to pronounce a single Hungarian word or name correctly. 518 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,439 Speaker 2: I did try. I looked them up, I watched videos. 519 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 2: Don't email me about it, and I'm not sure that 520 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 2: the time I spent down this rabbit hole will ever 521 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 2: pay off in any meaningful way. It's certainly not relevant 522 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 2: to the story I'm trying to tell here, but it's 523 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 2: always a little bit of a thrill to find a 524 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 2: whole new genre of guys I've never encountered before. So 525 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 2: I know I'm straying terribly from Curtis, but just humor 526 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 2: me for a minute. Curtis Maynard's essay appeared in a 527 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 2: two thousand and seven issue of citya Kurt, and I 528 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 2: wanted to get a feel for the kind of newspaper 529 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 2: it was, so I browsed a few other issues in 530 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 2: the couple of years on either side of two thousand 531 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 2: and seven, I found articles by Mark Weber, the director 532 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 2: of the Institute for Historical Review, an organization dedicated to 533 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 2: Holocaust denial. There were essays by Klansman, David Duke, and 534 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 2: Neo not c William Luther Pierce, all of which had 535 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 2: been translated into Hungarian. On the back page, as is 536 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,280 Speaker 2: common in publications like this, they offered books for sale. 537 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,720 Speaker 2: You could buy Hungarian language editions of books by David Irving, 538 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 2: David Duke, Pat Buchanan. You could even buy DVDs of 539 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 2: Lenny Reefinstall's Nazi propaganda films with Hungarian subtitles. So, okay, 540 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 2: I admit it. It got distracted. I got lost. I 541 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,800 Speaker 2: wasted a lot of time copying and pasting chunks of 542 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 2: Hungarian Nazi news into Google Translate. And I did find 543 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 2: decades of issues of the paper itself, issues spanning nineteen 544 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 2: sixty eight till twenty ten, but there's almost no mention 545 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 2: of its existence, outside of the fact that some university 546 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 2: libraries have issues in their archives. I found almost no 547 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,400 Speaker 2: information at all about the group behind the paper. At 548 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,240 Speaker 2: a meeting of the United Nations General Assembly in nineteen 549 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 2: eighty one, the Hungarian UN representative referred to them briefly 550 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 2: as a US based neo fascist group dedicated in the 551 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 2: spirit of Ferenz Salashi, the Nazi collaborator installed as the 552 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 2: nation's leader after the German occupation of Hungary in nineteen 553 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 2: forty four. 554 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: There are no. 555 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,800 Speaker 2: Good fascists that you could claim as a role model. 556 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 2: You shouldn't pick any of them, but this is a 557 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,759 Speaker 2: particularly bad one. In the short few months that he 558 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 2: was in power, his Aaro Cross party worked directly with 559 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 2: Adolph Eikman to resume the deportation of Hungarian Jews to 560 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 2: the camps, and as Soviet troops closed in on the 561 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:23,320 Speaker 2: Hungarian capital, Arrow Cross death squads carried out mass executions 562 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 2: in the walled ghettos of Budapest, shooting thousands, thousands of 563 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 2: Hungarian Jews and pushing their bodies into the Danube River. 564 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,240 Speaker 2: And in that nineteen eighty one UN General Assembly meeting, 565 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 2: the Hungarian representative read aloud excerpts from this newspaper. The 566 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 2: Hungaria Freedom Fighters, as they called themselves, said their goal 567 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,760 Speaker 2: was to reconquer the historical living space of the Hungarian people, 568 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 2: whose racial purity they hold very dear, and they praised 569 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 2: the regime of Faren Salagi, calling him his actions a 570 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 2: brave attempt to save the fatherland and its ancestral honor. 571 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,600 Speaker 2: Five years later, in the December nineteen eighty six issue 572 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,720 Speaker 2: of Sitiakurt, there is a brief note on the backpage 573 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 2: thanking President Ronald Reagan for his proclamation in support of 574 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 2: the Hungarian freedom fighters, the anti communist heroes of the 575 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 2: nineteen fifty six uprising. Most of what I found were 576 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 2: issues of Sitya Kurt, which is in Hungarian. I did 577 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 2: find a handful of issues of a companion newspaper in 578 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 2: English called The Fighter, and its first issue in nineteen 579 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 2: sixty eight featured a full page front page glowing endorsement 580 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:50,840 Speaker 2: of segregationist George Wallace's presidential campaign, written by Sityakurt contributing 581 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 2: editor Louis Molnar, who was George Wallace's Ohio campaign chair, 582 00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 2: and according to his obituary, he personally toppled the statue 583 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 2: Joseph Stalin in the city square in Budapest in nineteen 584 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 2: fifty six. Hard to Say and the first issue of 585 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 2: Sityakurt in Hungarian, also published in nineteen sixty eight, announced 586 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,320 Speaker 2: the formation of new chapters of a Hungarian nationalist paramilitary 587 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 2: organization called the Cross and Sword Movement. It had originally 588 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 2: been founded a few years earlier by a former Hungarian 589 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,879 Speaker 2: army officer named Zultan Vasvari, and as I looked through 590 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,240 Speaker 2: more issues of Sitya Kurt, most issues in the sixties 591 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,440 Speaker 2: and seventies list Zultan Vasvari's home address in New Jersey 592 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 2: in case you want to send a cash donation to 593 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 2: the paramilitary. In an interview about her twenty seventeen documentary 594 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 2: called Cold Warriors, Hungarian American journalist Raka Pigniski said that 595 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 2: the Cross and Sword Movement was not an anti Semitic organization. 596 00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 2: They were nationalists, they were patriots. Were some of the 597 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 2: members of the Nazi collaborationist Arrow Cross Party, Yes, but 598 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,960 Speaker 2: that was in the past. I didn't watch the documentary, 599 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 2: I read the interview. I am not sure I believe that, 600 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 2: And maybe Zultan Vasvari is. 601 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:23,759 Speaker 1: A common name. I don't know. 602 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 2: I've never been to Hungary, so I can't rule out 603 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 2: the possibility that there were multiple Hungarian Army officers in 604 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 2: World War Two who had that name. But not only 605 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 2: can I not find any evidence that there were, I 606 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 2: have pretty convincing evidence that there were not multiple Sultan Vasvari's. 607 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 2: A few years ago, Dida's Secrets founder Emma Best won 608 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 2: a foya battle with the federal government, and one of 609 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,720 Speaker 2: the thousands of documents made available to the general public 610 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:04,280 Speaker 2: for as a result was a nineteen fifties era CIA 611 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 2: file that contained a seven hundred page book that they 612 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 2: had obtained from the Hungarian Army during World War II. 613 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 2: And the book lists every officer in Hungary's army in 614 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 2: nineteen forty four, every officer by name, rank, date of birth, 615 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:26,640 Speaker 2: which medals they have when they began their service. Seven 616 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 2: hundred pages of Hungarian names, and there is only one 617 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 2: officer named Zultan Basvari and his date of birth is 618 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 2: listed as May thirteenth, nineteen twelve. Now I also found 619 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,880 Speaker 2: New Jersey Department of Health records that show that a 620 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:47,840 Speaker 2: Zultanvaswari born May thirteenth, nineteen twelve died in Bergen County 621 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety. Okay, that set of facts is not 622 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 2: exactly earth shattering. There are interviews with Hungarian Americans who 623 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 2: have fond memories about learning to shoot rifles on a 624 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,719 Speaker 2: farm owned by a man they called Uncle Zoli. And 625 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 2: those articles sometimes mentioned that he'd been an officer in 626 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 2: the war, but those fond memories shared in English language 627 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 2: sources sounded like a very different Sultan Vasvari than the 628 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 2: man described in Romanian. In nineteen forty, a Hungarian army 629 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:27,839 Speaker 2: officer named Zultan Baswari gave the order to massacre more 630 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,360 Speaker 2: than one hundred and fifty Romanian civilians in the Transylvanian 631 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 2: village of Epe. An interview with Gavriel Bhutkavan, one of 632 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 2: the very few survivors of that massacre, has been transcribed 633 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,759 Speaker 2: in the collections held by the Holocaust Museum. He describes 634 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,400 Speaker 2: finding his eleven month old sister shot and crushed with 635 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 2: the butt of a rifle in her crib. His eleven 636 00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 2: year old brother was shot in the back of the 637 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 2: head running from the soldiers. When the massacre was over, 638 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,400 Speaker 2: ordered his soldiers to dig a massive pit, burying the 639 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 2: victims in a mass grave. Most English language sources about 640 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 2: the massacre at Ep say that Vasvari was sentenced to 641 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 2: death for war crimes by the Romanian People's Tribunal at 642 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 2: Cluge after the war, and the source cited for that 643 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,920 Speaker 2: does indeed name Baswari among those war criminals who were 644 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:29,120 Speaker 2: sentenced to death at Cluche, but none of the English 645 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:34,120 Speaker 2: language sources I could find mentioned that this Romanian document 646 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,719 Speaker 2: also says that he was tried in absentia, and at 647 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 2: the time his sentence was pronounced, his current location was 648 00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,880 Speaker 2: not known. According to a two thousand and four report 649 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:50,040 Speaker 2: of the International Holocaust Commission in Romania, the People's tribunals 650 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 2: at Cluje and Bucharest sentenced over a hundred war criminals 651 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 2: to death, but it was largely symbolic. In one mass trial, 652 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 2: more than a third of those charged were even accounted for, 653 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,440 Speaker 2: let alone present. Even among those who were ever actually 654 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,320 Speaker 2: in custody, only a very small number of those sentences 655 00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 2: were ever carried out. So technically those articles aren't wrong. 656 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 2: Zoltan Vasvari was convicted of war crimes by a Romanian 657 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:28,479 Speaker 2: tribunal and he was sentenced to die, but they left 658 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:32,400 Speaker 2: out the extremely important detail that when they sentenced him 659 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:37,000 Speaker 2: to death, he wasn't there, They didn't know where he was, 660 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:42,920 Speaker 2: and he was absolutely not actually executed by the Romanian government. 661 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:50,759 Speaker 2: I struggled for entirely too long with a blurry PDF 662 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:56,440 Speaker 2: in Romanian. Considering that this is so far beyond tangential 663 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,520 Speaker 2: to this story. But I'm going to have to find 664 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,319 Speaker 2: a history to talk to about this, because I am 665 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 2: having a hard time believing that a Hungarian war criminal 666 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:12,239 Speaker 2: started a paramilitary organization in New Jersey. Surely there was 667 00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:16,480 Speaker 2: some other Zultan Vasfari born in Hungary on May thirteenth, 668 00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:21,279 Speaker 2: nineteen twelve. I must have made a mistake. I've really 669 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,520 Speaker 2: lost the plot here. I got completely derailed by the 670 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:28,000 Speaker 2: discovery of a Hungarian fascist newspaper in Ohio running ads 671 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,360 Speaker 2: for a war criminals nationalist militia. 672 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 3: Maybe, but if you're looking. 673 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:39,359 Speaker 2: For a Hungarian translation of David Duke's autobiography, you might 674 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:43,839 Speaker 2: try looking at a used bookstore in Cleveland. All that 675 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:49,840 Speaker 2: to say, circling back around, Curtis Maynard's Holocaust denile essays 676 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:54,560 Speaker 2: were very popular among a wide variety of the world's 677 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:59,400 Speaker 2: worst people in two thousand and seven. Within the admittedly 678 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:04,320 Speaker 2: small world world of racist conspiracy theory bloggers, Curtis Maynard 679 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,920 Speaker 2: was really making a name for himself. He's only nursing 680 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,400 Speaker 2: part time at this point. He picks up shifts on 681 00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,320 Speaker 2: the weekends and spends weekdays at home with his daughters 682 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,960 Speaker 2: while his wife worked as a chemical engineer. In later 683 00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:21,120 Speaker 2: angry screeds mail to his divorce attorney, he claims he 684 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 2: was the girl's primary caregiver and that the decision was 685 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 2: made jointly in the marriage that he would sacrifice his 686 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,320 Speaker 2: career so the girls wouldn't have to go to daycare. 687 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 2: But I think he really enjoyed the freedom of being 688 00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:38,520 Speaker 2: home on the internet all day. He posted thousands of 689 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:42,000 Speaker 2: times that year on Nazi message boards, and he was 690 00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,560 Speaker 2: writing hundreds of blog posts about how the Jews control 691 00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,280 Speaker 2: the media, black people are doing all the violent crime, 692 00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,440 Speaker 2: the Holocaust never happened. I mean, he's churning them out, 693 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,759 Speaker 2: and he's attending conferences, he's networking with movement leaders, He's 694 00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,280 Speaker 2: doing interviews on conspiracy theory radio shows about his friendship 695 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:02,240 Speaker 2: with Ernstundel. 696 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,080 Speaker 1: His hard work is starting to pay off. 697 00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:10,040 Speaker 2: He's just on the cusp of being a real figure 698 00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:15,680 Speaker 2: in professional racism. But then in December of two thousand 699 00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:19,000 Speaker 2: and seven, he got into an argument with a former 700 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:25,840 Speaker 2: friend that would end up ruining everything. But I lost 701 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,600 Speaker 2: too much time this week trying to translate the records 702 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:32,680 Speaker 2: of a war crimes tribunal from Romanian, so I'll have 703 00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,120 Speaker 2: to pick back up next week with the story of 704 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,840 Speaker 2: two Nazi bloggers trying to destroy each other over a 705 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:43,040 Speaker 2: disagreement about Ron Paul. I really did mean to get 706 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,560 Speaker 2: it all out in one I'm actually really looking forward 707 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,759 Speaker 2: to revealing who it was that Maynard was beefing with 708 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:01,120 Speaker 2: Weird Little Guys as a product of Cool Zone Media 709 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:05,720 Speaker 2: and iHeartRadio. It's researched, written and recorded by me, Mollie Knger. 710 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:10,360 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Sophie Lichterman and Robert Evans. The 711 00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,920 Speaker 2: show is edited by the wildly talented Rory Gagan. The 712 00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:17,280 Speaker 2: theme music was composed by Brad Dickard. You can email 713 00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,480 Speaker 2: me at Weird Little Guys Podcast at gmail dot com. 714 00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,799 Speaker 2: I will definitely read it, but I almost certainly will 715 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:28,280 Speaker 2: not answer it. It's nothing personal. You can exchange conspiracy 716 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:30,520 Speaker 2: theories about the show with other listeners on the Weird 717 00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,840 Speaker 2: Little Guy's subreddit. Just don't post anything that's going to 718 00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:35,240 Speaker 2: make you one of my Weird Little Guys.