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Speaker 1: After this week's episode on the five oh four sit Ins,

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Speaker 1: we are returning to the topic of disability rights for

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Speaker 1: our Saturday classic with something that took place a few

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Speaker 1: years earlier than that. It is about lawsuits involving disabled

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Speaker 1: students that followed in the wake of Brown versus Board

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Speaker 1: and the passage of the first US law establishing that

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Speaker 1: all children, regardless of ability, have the right to a free,

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Speaker 1: appropriate public education.

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Speaker 2: In this episode, we mentioned that the Education for All

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Speaker 2: Handicapped Children Act, which is now called the Individuals with

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Speaker 2: Disabilities Education Act, required evaluation programs to be non discriminatory

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Speaker 2: because poor children and children who weren't white were disproportionately

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Speaker 2: being identified as disabled. This continues to be an ongoing

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Speaker 2: and pervasive issue today. Black and Indigenous children in particular

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Speaker 2: are disproportionately more likely to be incorrectly identified as disabled,

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Speaker 2: and there are also gender disparities in special education. This

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Speaker 2: relates to how many children are identified as disabled and

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Speaker 2: which disabilities they are identified as having, and it can

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Speaker 2: have a negative impact on students' entire educations and their

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Speaker 2: later lives.

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Speaker 1: This episode also makes a passing reference to no Child

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Speaker 1: Left Behind. No Child Left Behind was repealed on December tenth,

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Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, and it was replaced with the Every Student

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Speaker 1: Succeeds Act. This episode originally came out on March twenty fifth,

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Speaker 1: twenty fifteen. Enjoy Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class,

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Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio Hello, and Welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm Tracy V.

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Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Frye. While we research this podcast,

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Speaker 1: you and I uncover things that surprise us. Basically all

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Speaker 1: the time, for sure. So sometimes though, we discover things

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Speaker 1: that surprise us, and the fact that we are just

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Speaker 1: learning this is also in itself surprising because we should

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Speaker 1: have known about that before because of various things in

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Speaker 1: our background. In this case, my mom spent most of

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Speaker 1: her career working with people who had a range of disabilities.

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Speaker 1: For she was a teacher for adults with disabilities, and

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Speaker 1: then she worked in a couple of different roles at

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Speaker 1: a residential care center for children who had multiple disabilities,

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Speaker 1: most of whom really needed full time care. My aunt

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Speaker 1: also taught third grade special education for nearly her whole

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Speaker 1: teaching career, and one of my first jobs as a

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Speaker 1: writer was writing for a company that sold educational supplies

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Speaker 1: and they had a whole business unit that dealt specifically

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Speaker 1: with products for children who had special needs. And yet,

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Speaker 1: in spite of all of that family history, I was

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Speaker 1: surprised to learn from a listener email that until nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy five, children with disabilities in the United States were

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Speaker 1: not getting guaranteed a public education. Listener Amy wrote in

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Speaker 1: to tell us about this aspect of Brown versus Board

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Speaker 1: that I hadn't known about before. After the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: ruling that the practice of segregation based on race was

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Speaker 1: unconstitutional came out, it sparked a similar series of cases

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Speaker 1: that were related to children who were at that point

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Speaker 1: either segregated into different classrooms or restricted from public schools

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Speaker 1: entirely because they had a disability. So that is what

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about today, And as a caveat

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Speaker 1: before we start, the language that we use to talk

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Speaker 1: about disabilities has evolved so much since the nineteen sixties

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Speaker 1: and seventies, so, particularly in quoted material from court proceedings

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Speaker 1: and laws, this episode includes some terminology that we would

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Speaker 1: not use the day today. This would be considered insulting

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Speaker 1: or offensive. We're gonna note those as they come up,

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Speaker 1: but just as an advanced warning. There are words we're

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Speaker 1: going to use that today we absolutely would not be

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Speaker 1: using in that way.

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Speaker 2: So uh to kick it off. The first US state

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Speaker 2: to pass a compulsory school attendance law was Massachusetts, and

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Speaker 2: it did so in eighteen fifty two, having passed a

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Speaker 2: similar law when it was still a British colony more

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Speaker 2: than two hundred years prior to that. Other states followed suit,

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Speaker 2: and these laws required children in a specific age range

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Speaker 2: to attend school, and parents whose children didn't go to

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Speaker 2: school or get an equivalent education at home faced prosecution.

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Speaker 1: However, most states granted exceptions to their compulsory attendance laws

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Speaker 1: in the cases of children who had disabilities. These children

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Speaker 1: weren't permitted to enroll in public schools at all, or

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Speaker 1: if they were allowed to enroll in school, they were

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Speaker 1: kept in separate, segregated classrooms away from other children, regardless

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Speaker 1: of the nature of their disability or what kind of

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Speaker 1: education that they needed. School systems had different rules for

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Speaker 1: determining who could be excluded, but in general, students deemed

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Speaker 1: to be quote uneducable were not a allowed to enroll.

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Speaker 1: Laws were all over the place when it came to

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Speaker 1: defining who exactly could be categorized as unedugable. In some

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Speaker 1: cases it was an IQ below a certain number. But

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Speaker 1: there were states that labeled a range of disabilities that

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Speaker 1: had absolutely nothing to do with the ability to learn

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Speaker 1: as uneducable, and that is not a label we would

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Speaker 1: use anymore. Children who were excluded from school mostly stayed

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Speaker 1: home or were institutionalized. Many of these institutionalized children did

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Speaker 1: not actually need full time care because of their disabilities,

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Speaker 1: and even if they did, the institutions that existed in

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Speaker 1: the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries were not equipped to

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Speaker 1: give that kind of care. In general, these facilities just

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Speaker 1: provided housing, minimal food and attentive care, and virtually no

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Speaker 1: education for the children who lived there. Even after the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court ruled in Brown versus Board that schools could

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Speaker 1: not be segregated based on race, other courts were finding

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Speaker 1: that segregation based on ability was allowed. In nineteen fifty eight,

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Speaker 1: the Illinois Supreme Court ruled that the state's compulsory education

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Speaker 1: laws did not apply to children with disabilities. In North Carolina,

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Speaker 1: it was a crime for parents whose children had already

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Speaker 1: been excluded because of a disability to try again at

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Speaker 1: enrolling them. This law was actually in effect all the

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Speaker 1: way until nineteen sixty nine. So apart from the fact

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Speaker 1: that children were being denied in education, the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: opinion in Brown versus Board had outlined very eloquently a

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Speaker 1: number of ways in which segregation based on race was

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Speaker 1: psychologically harmful, and it seems to a lot of people

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Speaker 1: that the same would be true in the case of

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Speaker 1: segregation based on ability. For example, if you just changed

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Speaker 1: the word race to ability in this sentence from the

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Speaker 1: ruling quote, to separate them from others of similar age

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Speaker 1: and qualifications solely because of their race generates a feeling

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Speaker 1: of inferiority as to their status in the community that

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Speaker 1: may affect their hearts and minds in a way unlike

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Speaker 1: ever to be undone end quote. So if being put

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Speaker 1: in a separate classroom made black children feel inferior to

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Speaker 1: white children, logically people thought it would do the same

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Speaker 1: in the case of children who had a disability who

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Speaker 1: were being separated from the rest of the school, And

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Speaker 1: the same questions were on the minds of legislators, and

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Speaker 1: the US started to pass a variety of laws that

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Speaker 1: addressed various aspects of education for disabled students in the

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Speaker 1: late nineteen fifties, new laws provided teacher training programs for

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Speaker 1: working with blind and deaf students, as well as captioned

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Speaker 1: films and other accessible teaching materials. Not long before his

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Speaker 1: assassination in nineteen sixty three, President John F. Kennedy signed

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Speaker 1: two pieces of legislation that were related to this subject.

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Speaker 1: One was an amendment to the Social Security Act, which

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Speaker 1: expanded programs for mothers and children in an effort to

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Speaker 1: prevent intellectual disabilities, which were things like screening programs and

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Speaker 1: nutrition programs that I aimed at prevention. The other was

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Speaker 1: the Mental Retardation and Community Mental Health Centers Construction Act

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Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty three. This funded research and programs, including

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Speaker 1: the training of special education teachers. Then, as a part

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Speaker 1: of his war on poverty, President Lyndon Johnson signed the

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Speaker 1: Elementary and Secondary Education Act into law in nineteen sixty five,

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Speaker 1: and this law was meant to address student inequality, especially

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Speaker 1: when it came to children from financially disadvantaged families. In

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six, this law was amended to include two

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Speaker 1: parts related to students with disabilities. It established the Bureau

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Speaker 1: of Education of the Handicapped and the National Advisory Council,

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Speaker 1: and it created programs for students with disabilities and provided

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Speaker 1: grant funding for those programs. As a side note, the

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Speaker 1: Elementary and Secondary Education Act was really controversial at the time.

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Speaker 1: It increased spending on education really dramatically, and since many

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Speaker 1: of the poorest children it was meant to help were

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Speaker 1: also racial and ethnic minorities, that raised the hackles of

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Speaker 1: a lot of the same citizens and lawmakers who had

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Speaker 1: previously opposed integration and at that point were still opposing integration.

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Speaker 1: This law actually continues to be controversial today. It was

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Speaker 1: reauthorized in two thousand and two and at that point

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Speaker 1: renamed No Child Left Behind. Additional laws expanded access to

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Speaker 1: services through the nineteen sixties, and in the early nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 1: two court rulings outlined the idea that all children had

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Speaker 1: the right to a free, appropriate public education. We're going

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Speaker 1: to talk more about that after we have a quick

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Speaker 1: word from a sponsor. A number of court cases came

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Speaker 1: about in the nineteen sixties and seventies that related to

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Speaker 1: the right to an education for children with disabilities. Two

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Speaker 1: of them have become really the landmark cases in this field,

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Speaker 1: and the ones that are cited over and over again.

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Speaker 1: The first one was the Pennsylvania Association for Retarded Children

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Speaker 1: Versus the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, also known as PARK versus Commonwealth.

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Speaker 1: The Pennsylvania Association for Retarded Children was an advocacy organization

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Speaker 1: for children with developmental disabilities and their parents. It was

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Speaker 1: at that point also providing education for most Pennsylvania children

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Speaker 1: with disabilities who were not being educated in public schools.

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Speaker 1: Under Pennsylvania law, at this point, children had to have

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Speaker 1: reached a quote mental age of five years before the

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Speaker 1: age of eight to start first grade, and schools could

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Speaker 1: deny admission to any student who didn't meet that criteria.

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Speaker 1: People were still talking about mental age a lot when

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Speaker 1: my mom was still working, but I don't think we

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Speaker 1: do that anymore. It's a very nebulous thing, the idea

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Speaker 1: of a mental age, and it's not nearly the prevalent

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Speaker 1: standard that it used to be. Along with Park, the

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Speaker 1: parents of thirteen children who had been excluded from school

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Speaker 1: formed a class action lawsuit against the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania

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Speaker 1: quote on behalf of all mentally retarded persons between the

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Speaker 1: ages of six and twenty one, whom the Commonwealth of

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania is presently excluding from a program of education and

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Speaker 1: training in the public schools. Their attorney, Thomas K. Gilhul,

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Speaker 1: argued that excluding the children from school was unconstitutional because

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Speaker 1: it violated the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment,

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Speaker 1: so as a quick refresher, The Fourteenth Amendment was one

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Speaker 1: of the reconstruction amendments passed in the wake of the

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Speaker 1: Civil War, in part to help protect the rights of

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Speaker 1: recently freed slaves. The end of the first section of

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Speaker 1: the Amendment includes both the equal protection and due process clauses.

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Speaker 1: Quote No State shall make or enforce any law which

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Speaker 1: shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the

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Speaker 1: United States. Nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty,

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Speaker 1: or property without due process of law law, nor deny

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Speaker 1: to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of

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Speaker 1: the laws. Pennsylvania's defense was basically to cite the laws

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Speaker 1: that were already on its books. One was the law

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Speaker 1: we just talked about that required a mental age of

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Speaker 1: five years. Another relieved Pennsylvania of the obligation to educate

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Speaker 1: children who were quote uneducable and quote untrainable. The Commonwealth

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Speaker 1: also argued that educating these children would create an undue

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Speaker 1: financial burden on the government of Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 2: The case was settled before the U. S. District Court

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Speaker 2: for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania. Judge Thomas Ambrose Masterson

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Speaker 2: ruled that yes, it was unconstitutional for Pennsylvania to interfere

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Speaker 2: in any exceptional child's right to an education, and the

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Speaker 2: Commonwealth was deemed to be responsible for providing a free

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Speaker 2: education for all children between the ages of six and

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Speaker 2: twenty one, regardless of their ability. The Commonwealth was also

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Speaker 2: required to offer free preschool to all students regardless of

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Speaker 2: ability as well, and if for some reason a school

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Speaker 2: system could not provide a free, appropriate education for a

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Speaker 2: child within its own schools, it had to find other

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Speaker 2: arrangements for that child's education at no cost to the family.

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Speaker 2: The other case that's most cited in this context is

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Speaker 2: Mills versus Board of Education of the District of Columbia

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Speaker 2: or Mills versus Board. This was another class action suit,

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Speaker 2: and this time it involved seven children who had been

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Speaker 2: excluded from school in the District of Columbia. The case

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Speaker 2: is named for plaintiff Peter Mills, who, at the time

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Speaker 2: of the proceedings is twelve years old in a ward

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Speaker 2: of the district. He had been excluded from school in

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Speaker 2: fourth grade due to a quote behavior problem. Another plaintiff,

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Speaker 2: Dwayne Blackshear, was also excluded because of a behavior problem,

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Speaker 2: and the remaining plaintiffs were reported to have been excluded

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Speaker 2: for a number of intellectual disabilities and medical conditions. Thetiffs

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Speaker 2: had been trying to get access to public education for

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Speaker 2: the nineteen seventy one nineteen seventy two school year, and

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Speaker 2: after failing to get results by going through normal channels,

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Speaker 2: filed their suit on September twenty fourth, nineteen seventy one.

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Speaker 2: On December twentieth, nineteen seventy one, the court signed an

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Speaker 2: interim stipulation that four of the plaintiffs get access to

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Speaker 2: a public education that would meet their needs by January

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Speaker 2: third of nineteen seventy two, and that the Board of

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Speaker 2: Education take a series of steps to identify other children

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Speaker 2: in need of special education services and figure out how

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Speaker 2: to provide them with an education. The ruling that I

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Speaker 2: was reading did not get into why only four of

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Speaker 2: the children were ordered to be enrolled in school immediately.

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Speaker 2: Based on the descriptions of the various plaintiffs, that are included,

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Speaker 2: and the ruling, I think it was just an issue

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Speaker 2: of we need to figure out more accommodations for these,

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Speaker 2: but let's go ahead and get these into school. God,

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Speaker 2: that is sort of my conclusion, but it wasn't really

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Speaker 2: spelled out that clearly. However, the Board of Education missed

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Speaker 2: this January third deadline, and it continued to miss new

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Speaker 2: deadlines as the judge ordered them, and so the plaintiffs

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Speaker 2: had to keep bringing the matter back before the judge.

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Speaker 2: It dragged on for months before Judge Joseph Cornelius Wattie

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Speaker 2: ruled that excluding these children was a violation of their

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Speaker 2: constitutional rights. He cited Brown versus Board and Bowling versus

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Speaker 2: Sharp as precedents. Those are all things that we've talked

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Speaker 2: about during our two parter on Brown versus Board, along

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Speaker 2: with a number of other civil rights cases, and he

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Speaker 2: found that the whole process of excluding children from school

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Speaker 2: violated their due process clause of the Fifth Amendment. We've

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Speaker 2: kind of alluded before to the way the Fourteenth Amendment

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Speaker 2: is worded applies to states and not to the District

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Speaker 2: of Columbia, which is why this really focused on Fifth

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Speaker 2: Amendment rights rather than Fourteenth Amendment rights, and he finally

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Speaker 2: ordered quote that no child eligible for a publicly supported

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Speaker 2: education in the District of Columbia public schools shall be

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Speaker 2: excluded from a regular public school assignment by a rule, policy,

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Speaker 2: or practice of the Board of Education of the District

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Speaker 2: of Columbia or its agents, unless such child is provided

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Speaker 2: a adequate alternative educational services suited to the child's needs,

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Speaker 2: which may include special education or tuition grants, and be

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Speaker 2: a constitutionally adequate prior hearing and periodic review of the

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Speaker 2: child's status, progress, and the adequacy of any educational alternative.

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Speaker 1: So, to be very short, that says you cannot exclude

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Speaker 1: children from school without providing them an alternate education that's

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Speaker 1: suitable for them, and you can't exclude children from school

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Speaker 1: without actually allowing them to do process. And that was

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Speaker 1: a problem that was happening all over the country where

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Speaker 1: basically a principal would say this child is excluded from

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Speaker 1: school because of this disability, and the child really had

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Speaker 1: no recourse. There was no due process in that situation.

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Speaker 1: So this brings us to the first federal law that

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Speaker 1: guaranteed the same thing that Judge Wattie had just guaranteed

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Speaker 1: in the District of Columbia, and we'll talk about this

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Speaker 1: after another brief word from a sponsor. One of the

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Speaker 1: things that was really exceptional about Brown versus Board is

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Speaker 1: that it was a Supreme Court ruling that dramatically and

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Speaker 1: fundamentally changed the way people lived in their daily lives.

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Speaker 1: One of the questions that was raised during the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court's arguments and re arguments in Brown versus Board, and

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Speaker 1: it's actually a question that still still persists in some

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Speaker 1: people's minds today, is whether the Court even had the

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Speaker 1: authority to make such a massive change. Critics argued that

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Speaker 1: that wasn't the court's job at all, that it really

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Speaker 1: should have fallen to Congress to pass a law to

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Speaker 1: change segregation, not to the Court to over turn all

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Speaker 1: of those laws that were already on the books.

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Speaker 2: Congress did eventually pass civil rights legislation that had some

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Speaker 2: things in common with the Brown versus Board decision, but

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Speaker 2: when it came to children's rights to an education regardless

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Speaker 2: of disability, Congress took a more focused approach. In nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy two, after these and other cases had started moving

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Speaker 2: through the courts, Congress introduced legislation meant to directly address

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Speaker 2: the subject of education for children with disabilities. First, Congress

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Speaker 2: launched an investigation into the state of education for children

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Speaker 2: with disabilities, and these findings were kind of shocking to

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Speaker 2: today's sensibilities. Millions of children in the United States were

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Speaker 2: effectively being denied a public education due to a disability,

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Speaker 2: either by being excluded from schools entirely or by being

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Speaker 2: put into a segregated classroom that was not appropriate for

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Speaker 2: their needs. There were, according to this investigation, more than

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Speaker 2: eight million children who needed special education services. Only three

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Speaker 2: point nine million of these children, so less than half

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Speaker 2: were getting an education that was appropriate to their needs.

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Speaker 2: One point seventy five million children were receiving an education

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Speaker 2: that wasn't appropriate for their needs, and two point five

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Speaker 2: million weren't getting any education at all. Aside from the

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Speaker 2: basic idea that so many children just were not receiving

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Speaker 2: the education that they were entitled to, this investigation actually

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Speaker 2: raised another point. By failing to educate children appropriately, state

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Speaker 2: governments were essentially forcing them to remain dependent on other

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Speaker 2: people for their entire lives. The end result of this

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Speaker 2: lack of education was that children who could have otherwise

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Speaker 2: become independent were growing up to rely exclusively on public

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Speaker 2: agencies and taxpayer dollars in order to survive. According to

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Speaker 2: the legislative records, the figure was cited as billions of

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Speaker 2: dollars spent per year to keep people in quote subhuman conditions.

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Speaker 2: The Education for All Handicapped Children Act of nineteen seventy five,

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Speaker 2: also known as Public Life Law ninety four Tosh one

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Speaker 2: forty two, was signed into law by President Gerald Ford

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Speaker 2: on November seventeenth, nineteen seventy five, and it was to

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Speaker 2: take effect by September first of nineteen seventy eight. This

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Speaker 2: is the law that guaranteed all children between the ages

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Speaker 2: of three and twenty one be allowed access to a free,

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Speaker 2: appropriate public education, regardless of whether they had a disability.

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Speaker 2: It had four purposes. First was quote to assure that

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Speaker 2: all children with disabilities have available to them a free,

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Speaker 2: appropriate public education, which emphasizes special education and related services

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Speaker 2: designed to meet their unique needs. Second, quote to assure

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Speaker 2: that the rights of children with disabilities and their parents

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Speaker 2: are protected. Third quote to assist states and localities to

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Speaker 2: provide for the education of all children with disabilities. And

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Speaker 2: force quote to assess and assure the effectiveness of efforts

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Speaker 2: to educate all children with disabilities. This law also outlined

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Speaker 2: a number of ideas that are still part of education

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Speaker 2: for children with disabilities today. This included individual education programs

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Speaker 2: are IEPs, which are tailored plans of education that are

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Speaker 2: put together to meet each child's specific needs. The concept

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Speaker 2: of the least restrictive environment was also part of this law,

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Speaker 2: so that's the idea that a child should be educated

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Speaker 2: in the least restrictive setting that is still simultaneously appropriate

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Speaker 2: to meet their educational needs. It also sets up education

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Speaker 2: as a collaborative process. This is one that involves the

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Speaker 2: active participation of the parents, the teachers, and other professionals

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Speaker 2: all working together to put together a plan and educate

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Speaker 2: a specific child. There were a lot of other provisions

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Speaker 2: in the law as well. Evaluation programs had to be

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Speaker 2: non discriminatory. They needed to account for economic differences as

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Speaker 2: well as language and ethnicity. And this was a big

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Speaker 2: deal because poor and minority children were dispropored portunately represented

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Speaker 2: in programs for children with disabilities, sometimes for discriminatory reasons

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Speaker 2: and not because an actual disability existed. And to be clear,

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Speaker 2: this was really an enormous step. We had gone from

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Speaker 2: people just being institutionalized as a matter of course to

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Speaker 2: there being a law that guaranteed that everyone had the

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Speaker 2: right to the same education. But this was not an

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Speaker 2: easy process at all, and it wasn't even one that

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Speaker 2: a lot of people had high hopes for. When the

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Speaker 2: law was originally passed, President Ford himself said, quote, Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: this bill promises more than the federal government can deliver,

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Speaker 2: and its good intentions could be thwarted by the many

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Speaker 2: unwise provisions it contains. Everyone can agree with the objectives

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Speaker 2: stated in the title of this bill, educating all handicapped

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Speaker 2: children in our nation. The key question is whether the

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Speaker 2: bill will really accomplish this objective, and as people's understanding

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Speaker 2: of what was actually needed and how it would work progressed,

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Speaker 2: Public TIK Law ninety four TOASH one four two was

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Speaker 2: amended several times between nineteen seventy five and nineteen ninety seven.

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Speaker 2: In the nineteen eighties, amendments expanded the scope of the

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Speaker 2: law to include services that started from birth, as well

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Speaker 2: as transition services from graduation into adult living. In nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety the law was reauthorized, and at that time it

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Speaker 2: was renamed the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, or idea.

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Speaker 2: It was reauthorized again in nineteen ninety seven, and this

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Speaker 2: reauthorization involved research into the outcomes of special education, in

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Speaker 2: other words, what had actually happened to special education students,

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Speaker 2: and the research was not particularly positive. Special education quote

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Speaker 2: has been impeded by low expectations and an insufficient focus

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Speaker 2: on applying replicable research on proven methods of teaching and

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Speaker 2: learning for children with disabilities. So while at times this

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Speaker 2: progress has been slow or faltering, overall things have improved

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Speaker 2: over the last forty years. The majority of children with

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Speaker 2: disabilities now go to neighborhood public schools and are educated

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Speaker 2: in regular classrooms, and both the graduation rates and employment

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Speaker 2: rates after graduation have increased, along with enrollments into secondary

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Speaker 2: schools by students who have disabilities. The number of college

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Speaker 2: freshmen with disabilities has tripled since nineteen seventy eight. However,

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Speaker 2: while things have improved, there are definitely a number of

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Speaker 2: challenges and issues that parents and teachers, and as they

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Speaker 2: get older and become more accountable for their own education,

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Speaker 2: the students themselves still face.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, most of the parents I know whose children have

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Speaker 1: some sort of disability have talked really candidly about various struggles,

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Speaker 1: like they will have teachers who they love, and the

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Speaker 1: teachers are obviously doing the best that they can with

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Speaker 1: the resources that they have, but they they're like still

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Speaker 1: struggles in getting IEPs put together and approved and having

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Speaker 1: them implemented once they actually are our put together. So

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Speaker 1: it's definitely definitely not a perfect process yet, but it's

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Speaker 1: also one that has certainly come a long long way

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Speaker 1: since nineteen seventy five. Thanks so much for joining us

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Speaker 1: on this Saturday. If you'd like to send us a note,

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Speaker 1: our email addresses History Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com, and

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Speaker 1: you can subscribe to the show on the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.