Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek Inside from the reporters and editors
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Speaker 1: Ole Business finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week
Speaker 1: Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, Welcome to the Bloomberg Business Week Weekend Podcast.
Speaker 2: Investors still mulling over the higher for longer US interest
Speaker 2: rate world meantime, the FTC not mulling over, but rather
Speaker 2: pulling the trigger and suing Amazon in a long anticipated
Speaker 2: antitrust case, accusing the e commerce giant of monopolizing online
Speaker 2: marketplace services. Startup investor Steve Caase, co founder of AOL,
Speaker 2: of course, weighs in and explains why targeting some of
Speaker 2: big tech makes sense.
Speaker 3: Also ahead our cover story on another tech giant, Alphabet,
Speaker 3: and why law enforcement requests for Google user data is
Speaker 3: raising some serious privacy concerns. Plus, we talk with one
Speaker 3: of the producers of the newly released feature film Dumb Money,
Speaker 3: which portrays some of our most talked about financial titans
Speaker 3: and the main street investors who took them for a
Speaker 3: multi billion dollar ride.
Speaker 2: Unbelievable. All of that to come and we begin with
Speaker 2: the big picture money markets and the macro environment, and
Speaker 2: how we assess the worries of investors and traders, especially
Speaker 2: when it comes to sticky inflation and a federal reserve
Speaker 2: that has hell bent on getting inflation back to its
Speaker 2: two percent target. These worries continue to play out in
Speaker 2: a trade where stocks move lower and US treasury yields higher.
Speaker 2: With us as someone who thinks about it all and
Speaker 2: connects the dots.
Speaker 3: Peter Atwater, he's adjunct professor of economics at William and
Speaker 3: Mary who before that worked in financial services and with
Speaker 3: hedge funds. You might recall it he coined Carol the
Speaker 3: term key shape recovery.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he did. Indeed, he was recently on to talk
Speaker 2: about his new book, The Confidence Map, which came out
Speaker 2: in July. So delighted to have you back. How are you,
Speaker 2: I'm doing great, Great.
Speaker 4: To be here.
Speaker 2: Well, it's great to have you here. How are you
Speaker 2: thinking about kind of the things that are coming at
Speaker 2: investors right now and just the world at large.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, there's a lot coming at investors. But
Speaker 5: what's been so strike to me about the past couple
Speaker 5: of weeks is the absence of emotion We've watched the
Speaker 5: sell off in bonds, we've watched the sell off in stocks,
Speaker 5: We've watched oil prices rise, and there's this remarkable at
Speaker 5: ease that investors seem to have, even though markets have
Speaker 5: gotten over sold er in the case of oil, over bought,
Speaker 5: and it's really inconsistent to me with what prices would suggest.
Speaker 5: So I'm perplexed that people are taking all of this
Speaker 5: as commonly as they are, particularly because it wasn't, you know,
Speaker 5: six months ago interest rates were at this level and
Speaker 5: people were panicking about the banks, and it's a big
Speaker 5: gone today.
Speaker 3: So what do you attribute that to.
Speaker 5: I am a little worried about real complacence behavior on
Speaker 5: the part of investors, because there's no sense of that
Speaker 5: things could get worse, whether in terms of the economy
Speaker 5: itself or higher interest rates or inflation. There's almost this
Speaker 5: sense of, Okay, this is what it is. Until the
Speaker 5: economy gives us signals that it's weakening, or until the
Speaker 5: consumer rolls over, we're going to count on some sort
Speaker 5: of miraculous landing of this.
Speaker 3: One thing that caroly and I talked about this week
Speaker 3: was the depletion that we're seeing when it comes to
Speaker 3: the cash savings of Americans right Castle baleat Castle balance sheets.
Speaker 3: I mean pretty much everyone except the top twenty percent
Speaker 3: has run out of that excess cash savings that they had. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean the pandemic and post pandemic.
Speaker 5: I worry about those at the low end where the
Speaker 5: cash ran out a long time ago. I think it's
Speaker 5: interesting that folks are only taking note of it now,
Speaker 5: But for those at the bottom, this is a phenomenon
Speaker 5: that's now more than a year old, and so you're
Speaker 5: starting to see that roll into delinquency rates. It's particularly
Speaker 5: in automobile loans and credit card loans, and the automobile
Speaker 5: loan one worries me because, particularly for low income individuals,
Speaker 5: the car is the job, and they don't have the
Speaker 5: flexibility of work from home that many above do.
Speaker 2: Are you comfortable with some of the data points that
Speaker 2: are out there, including the labor statistics here in the
Speaker 2: United States?
Speaker 5: You know, I'm comfortable with the statistics. But what is
Speaker 5: clear even with these statistics is that jobs are not
Speaker 5: equating to confidence, and that you've seen no material improvement
Speaker 5: in mood even though jobs have come back and people
Speaker 5: are working more. And so I think we do ourselves
Speaker 5: a disservice to think that having a job is going
Speaker 5: to boost confidence.
Speaker 2: I think it's funny because I think Tim and I
Speaker 2: talk a lot about like the things that we're paying
Speaker 2: for in life right now, whether it's homes or rates.
Speaker 3: On, you know, buying a home right insurance is super expensive.
Speaker 2: Now cool, Like everything seems super expensive right now. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then we have jobs and we feel pretty confident.
Speaker 5: This is these are the things that are at the
Speaker 5: low end of the hierarchy of need. So we're not
Speaker 5: talking about luxury goods where you can do with or without.
Speaker 5: We're talking about essentials, and so that creates this sense
Speaker 5: of vulnerability where people feel hostage to either the price
Speaker 5: scarcity or the supply scarcity or the demand scarcity.
Speaker 3: Everything you're talking about we could have talked about six
Speaker 3: months ago. We could have talked about in January before
Speaker 3: the run up of close to twenty percent on the
Speaker 3: S and P five hundred this year, which by the way,
Speaker 3: has now been pretty much cut in half at this point. So, Peter,
Speaker 3: what were people ignoring and what is it portend for
Speaker 3: the future.
Speaker 5: So if I look at the markets over the last
Speaker 5: six months, I think the indices are masking what's really
Speaker 5: going on, which is this enormous stratification where the low
Speaker 5: end russells small cap stocks or barely I don't know
Speaker 5: this afternoon if they're up for the years.
Speaker 6: Talk about this all the time.
Speaker 5: We talk about the small shops so forma, and this
Speaker 5: is an indication of declining confidence and declining success for
Speaker 5: small businesses. And so I worry that investors, by pouring
Speaker 5: money into the Thoroughbreds, into the Amazon and Apple and
Speaker 5: Google and Microsoft, are being misled by the fact that
Speaker 5: things are troublesome below the surface the other four hundred
Speaker 5: and ninety five companies.
Speaker 2: The other thing I guess I would go to is
Speaker 2: that when we talk about rates, and we constantly keep going, well,
Speaker 2: you know, highest rates at SO seven or the eight time,
Speaker 2: and that time really felt like the bottom was going
Speaker 2: to come out from under us. It doesn't necessarily feel
Speaker 2: like that time today that bad. But then again, is
Speaker 2: it because we're not necessarily really reading what's going on
Speaker 2: or were missing things?
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think we're still in this unwind from
Speaker 5: negative interest rates two years ago, and so we tend
Speaker 5: to look at it on an absolute basis, but it's
Speaker 5: going to be interesting to see how balanced investors feel
Speaker 5: when they get their statements at the end of the
Speaker 5: quarter where both their stock portfolios.
Speaker 2: You're done.
Speaker 3: I was gonna say a lot of people who don't
Speaker 3: wait to get the statements, They you know, log in
Speaker 3: when they see red.
Speaker 2: I check periodically, but you're right, it's like a reality
Speaker 2: check of like, it's again a reminder not everything goes up,
Speaker 2: but when we do go like, is there something though
Speaker 2: significant when we do make those references back to two
Speaker 2: thousand and seven, two thousand and eight, which was such
Speaker 2: a significant time in this country as well as certainly
Speaker 2: within the financial market universe, is it are we setting
Speaker 2: up for a period another period that's as rough as
Speaker 2: some of the stuff we went through there in terms
Speaker 2: of the markets.
Speaker 5: So I think what's been so interesting in the past
Speaker 5: two years is we're seeing a concurrent unwinding of extreme
Speaker 5: sentiment in both stocks and bonds. The trade isn't risk
Speaker 5: on versus risk off, it's risk one versus risk out,
Speaker 5: and you're seeing that in the growth in money market funds,
Speaker 5: where money is leaving the market outright, and that's a
Speaker 5: trend we need to keep a lot of attention on
Speaker 5: because you know seven oh eight, other than a few
Speaker 5: weeks there was this rotation into bonds out of stocks,
Speaker 5: and that we're not seeing that, even though yields are
Speaker 5: significantly higher than they were recent one.
Speaker 3: So where's the money going.
Speaker 5: It's going into money market funds over.
Speaker 3: Five percent and a money market fund you've just said
Speaker 3: it there until you know, and you're earning more than
Speaker 3: ten year yields today.
Speaker 5: I mean, so it's a really it's cash has become
Speaker 5: a viable alternative. And as I said, with stocks and
Speaker 5: bonds moving down in price together, that it could start
Speaker 5: to feed upon its well stay that way. Who knows,
Speaker 5: who knows.
Speaker 3: But I mean at a certain point, bonds are going
Speaker 3: to become attractive to some of these people, right.
Speaker 5: So that's the question. If bonds were a bubble, if
Speaker 5: negative interest rates were a sign of extreme sentiment, then
Speaker 5: we're likely to see that rising rates. Falling prices don't
Speaker 5: draw a crowd. That we've seen everybody who is going
Speaker 5: to buy a bond did, and much as you see
Speaker 5: when stock market bubbles unwined, lower price doesn't draw anybody.
Speaker 5: You get the occasional bounces, but it's a perpetual unwinding machine.
Speaker 2: Is it safe to say? And I think you mentioned
Speaker 2: this earlier. We've never come out of a pandemic, We've
Speaker 2: never come out of a time period like this. We
Speaker 2: don't really ultimately know how it all settles.
Speaker 6: We don't.
Speaker 5: But let me create a bull case here. You talk
Speaker 5: out of both sides of my mouth and economists. That's
Speaker 5: the we talked about all this cash going into all
Speaker 5: the money going into money markets, that then becomes a
Speaker 5: potential source for further enthusiasm. If sentiment were to bottom.
Speaker 2: The cash on the side of the sideline, and.
Speaker 5: There's a lot of it, I mean, there's an enormous
Speaker 5: amount of cash sitting there, and so you could have
Speaker 5: this powerful reversal where the crowd says that was it,
Speaker 5: that was as bad as it got, and we're back
Speaker 5: to the races.
Speaker 3: I mean, if you're saying that, like the S and
Speaker 3: P five hundred, at forty five hundred, you were regretting
Speaker 3: not putting some money in. Now it's at forty two
Speaker 3: hundred and you're like, Okay, maybe it's time or there
Speaker 3: could be further to go.
Speaker 5: Well, and I can create a bull scenario, which is
Speaker 5: if the dollar is then going to fall, you start
Speaker 5: to see a declining dollar, that's a huge tailwind for
Speaker 5: these megacaps.
Speaker 2: With us, as Bloomberg News congressional reporter Eric Wahlson on
Speaker 2: the phone at the Capitol in Washington, d C. Still
Speaker 2: with us, Peter Atwater as a professor of economics at
Speaker 2: William and Mary and author of the Confidence Matt and Eric,
Speaker 2: I want to start with you give us some color
Speaker 2: about what are you hearing. What's the environment in and
Speaker 2: around the Capitol as we count down to that possible shutdown.
Speaker 7: Well, you know, I think really the focus is on
Speaker 7: the House, where even longtime Republican aids and operators are saying,
Speaker 7: it's just chaos. They haven't seen anything like it. It's
Speaker 7: just an inability really of the House Republicans to come
Speaker 7: together on even an offer. You know, they've proposed a
Speaker 7: stop gap spending bill of between thirty one days or
Speaker 7: forty five days, try to attach that to some border
Speaker 7: security position provisions and make the President come to terms
Speaker 7: on a border deal. But they can't even really get
Speaker 7: the votes to pass that, So they're not even off
Speaker 7: of first base here. And the meanwhile, the Senate's moving
Speaker 7: forward with his bipartisan deal. You know, it's about six
Speaker 7: billion dollars in Ukraine aid six billions for disaster funds
Speaker 7: the government for forty seven. Now, you know, if the
Speaker 7: Senate passes that, which it likely could do by Sunday,
Speaker 7: a government shutdown has already started. There'd be a lot
Speaker 7: of pressure on McCarthy to bring that up, but he
Speaker 7: told his conference he's not going to bring that up today,
Speaker 7: and so we're really heading to a shutdown.
Speaker 3: Eric, you've seen this play out before. So just give
Speaker 3: us an idea of if the government does shut down,
Speaker 3: or maybe we say at this point when the government
Speaker 3: does shut down, help us by looking into your crystal
Speaker 3: ball and giving us an idea of when things open
Speaker 3: up back open up again.
Speaker 7: Well, one in tricking possibility is that House Modern it's
Speaker 7: conductive rebellion. Put a couple of stories on the Boomberg
Speaker 7: about that. They have some procedural mechanisms on's called the
Speaker 7: discharge petition where they could within about nine legislative days,
Speaker 7: force a vote against speakers wishes on that Senate bill
Speaker 7: or on their own rival plan, which would actually extend
Speaker 7: government counting to January eleventh. You know, to Vida is
Speaker 7: a betrayal of the party but they are arguing, well,
Speaker 7: be a lot of the Conservatives a vote against the
Speaker 7: which party speaker candidate, and vote against House rules and
Speaker 7: other things, so they've also shown disloyalty. So, you know,
Speaker 7: Mike Lawler of New York, one of the moderate Biden
Speaker 7: district Republicans leading that effort. He can probably bring along
Speaker 7: five other New York Republicans to help him, and that's
Speaker 7: all it's truly needed to trigger this process. So it
Speaker 7: could be as little as nine days for our way,
Speaker 7: as the Speaker could try to thwart that. You know,
Speaker 7: on the other hand, I could see a resolution quicker.
Speaker 7: It just really depends on really on these moderates and
Speaker 7: where the Speaker ultimately decides, you know, just the shut
Speaker 7: does it's not worth the pain, not worth risking the House.
Speaker 7: He could face emotion nowst him at that point to
Speaker 7: be up to Democrats whether they bail him out. You know,
Speaker 7: there's probably enough Conservatives that he would you know, be
Speaker 7: able to be ousted without democratic help.
Speaker 2: The political process. As we said earlier when we began
Speaker 2: talking with Peter Atwater at the top of the broadcast, Peter,
Speaker 2: one of the things that's on the minds of investors
Speaker 2: is his potential for a government shut down. There is
Speaker 2: potentially an impact when you don't have government programs, the
Speaker 2: expenditures going out, you don't have employees being paid. There's
Speaker 2: an impact. I mean, how do you think about it?
Speaker 2: Think abou William and Mary. They spend a lot of
Speaker 2: time in terms of policy and the connection of policy
Speaker 2: and economic impacts.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 5: So I often say that policy makers follow mood, and
Speaker 5: this is policy makers in me here now mode. The
Speaker 5: only thing they care about is their individual survival. And
Speaker 5: with mood falling is indicated by the markets, that's going
Speaker 5: to make getting a resolution together very difficult until there
Speaker 5: is ultimately capitulation where some group is led to believe
Speaker 5: that they're vulnerable in this process. And what we see
Speaker 5: today is a lot of between the gerrymandering and the
Speaker 5: heavy one statedness that we have in terms of political alignment,
Speaker 5: that vulnerability is not showing up anywhere anytime soon.
Speaker 3: So, Peter, your book is called the Confidence Map, Charting
Speaker 3: a Path from Chaos to Clarity. As a word, I
Speaker 3: think a lot of people would associate with what's going
Speaker 3: on at least in Washington right now. Eric, you might
Speaker 3: agree or disagree. I don't know, do Americans still look
Speaker 3: for confidence in the government or if we kind of said,
Speaker 3: you know what, it's not happening.
Speaker 5: The bond market would say they don't. I mean that
Speaker 5: the markets yawn over what's happening in Washington is remarkable
Speaker 5: to me, but that is the nature of the investing
Speaker 5: crowd to do.
Speaker 3: But is it yawning because they know it's going to
Speaker 3: get resolved and it's happened before.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I think we're numb to it. But therein
Speaker 5: lies the danger that that belief that ultimately Congress comes
Speaker 5: to its senses is based on the past and the environment.
Speaker 5: The mood environment, at least right now, suggests that that
Speaker 5: may not be the best assumption.
Speaker 2: Eric, come on back in here, because I do it
Speaker 2: was interesting what Peter said, Like, I do think that
Speaker 2: there is such a big yawn. I think if I
Speaker 2: brought this up with a lot of my family members,
Speaker 2: they'd be like, yeah, okay, tell me something I care about.
Speaker 2: But I do wonder Eric, in terms of do members
Speaker 2: of Congress are they getting calls from their constituents. I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm sure corporate folks might be if they're not going
Speaker 2: to get some kind of you know, government contract payout
Speaker 2: or something. But I just wonder, do lawmakers here from
Speaker 2: the voting members of the US.
Speaker 7: Well, you know, some of them say that they aren't
Speaker 7: hearing some of them say they are. But I would
Speaker 7: say we have a couple of really good things in
Speaker 7: the terminal right now. One is a great story which
Speaker 7: talks about which lawmakers have the most federal workers in
Speaker 7: their district, and one of them is bat Gates is
Speaker 7: leading that the government shutdown charge. He has the third
Speaker 7: most number of federal workers in his district. So you know,
Speaker 7: these are people who are not necessarily acting in the
Speaker 7: interests of their constituents. I'd also point out another story
Speaker 7: I wrote on the terminal, which is about the economic impact.
Speaker 7: You know, we discovered big of Bloomberg government data at
Speaker 7: one point nine billion dollars per day and lost or
Speaker 7: delayed revenue to federal contractors, and that is going to grow.
Speaker 7: So you're going to see service contractors laid off and
Speaker 7: never get back pay. You're going to see production lines disrupted.
Speaker 7: And who we talked to in that story, basically, you know,
Speaker 7: they said, you know, this is the time with high
Speaker 7: inflation I interest rate, you're going to see a cash
Speaker 7: flow crunch some of these small contractors. You're going to
Speaker 7: see some companies even go bailly up in a six
Speaker 7: to seven week shutdown. So, you know, I think the
Speaker 7: longer it goes on, the longer the clamor the bigger
Speaker 7: the pain. As your guests said, you know, and someone's
Speaker 7: going to have to capitulate.
Speaker 2: Eric, you know that is such a really good point.
Speaker 2: I mean, Peter, I do think about that. Smaller companies, man,
Speaker 2: they live I feel like from money into money out,
Speaker 2: like they just live from day to day in terms
Speaker 2: of their you know, financial books, if you will. I mean,
Speaker 2: that is a possible cost to all of this.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Well, and I think it's yet another moment where those
Speaker 5: on the left and the right fail to appreciate the
Speaker 5: vulnerability of those at the bottom and business and individually
Speaker 5: and ultimately the potential that that those at the bottom
Speaker 5: say enough of both left and right.
Speaker 3: What happens when or if that happens, Peter.
Speaker 5: So, I think you start to see grassroots movements where
Speaker 5: you see pockets of both red and blue individuals and
Speaker 5: businesses that the low ends say we've had enough.
Speaker 2: I feel like you need to occupy Wall Street or
Speaker 2: occupy corporate America.
Speaker 3: You know to what I mean, maybe that was the
Speaker 3: Tea Party, or maybe it was the rise of Trump
Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen.
Speaker 5: But I think that and Eric may want to weigh
Speaker 5: in on this, is that the environment today is uniting.
Speaker 2: Well, uniting everybody it goes.
Speaker 5: With similar vulnerabilities.
Speaker 2: Well, Eric, we've got only about twenty five seconds. What
Speaker 2: do you say to that about unifying people?
Speaker 7: I think one of the interesting things is how split
Speaker 7: America is. You've got almost a fifty to fifty country,
Speaker 7: and that's why the House is the margin is so small,
Speaker 7: and that's what's really cool. The problem here is that
Speaker 7: you McCarthy's majority. If he had twenty seat majority, this
Speaker 7: would be the issue we're seeing today. The fact is
Speaker 7: he's only lose four and there's a very small number
Speaker 7: five to seven who are basically saying, you know, we
Speaker 7: won't vote for this starting position CR. So I think
Speaker 7: that's that's an element of it to the small House majority, right,
Speaker 7: and you know, his personal skills, Nancy Pelosi had a
Speaker 7: small majority to get more through. You know, he just
Speaker 7: isn't able to get those last couple of votes that
Speaker 7: he needs.
Speaker 2: Eric Watson, we know you're busy Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Congression reporter at Bloomberg News, Peter Atwater, President Financial Insights,
Speaker 2: and check out his book, of course, The Confidence Map.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
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Speaker 2: D Cass chairman and CEO at his investment from Revolution,
Speaker 2: co founder of course of AOL which at its peak
Speaker 2: nearly half of Internet users in the US used AOL,
Speaker 2: so really just game changer, and he's back with us
Speaker 2: on zoom from Washington, DC. Steve, it is great to
Speaker 2: have you back here with Tim and myself on Bloomberg
Speaker 2: Business Week. You know, it's been a year since you
Speaker 2: published Rise of the Rest, How entrepreneurs and surprising places
Speaker 2: are building the New American Dream. It's now out in paperback.
Speaker 2: How is the entrepreneurial spirit and the American dream doing
Speaker 2: in your view in the pursuit of it?
Speaker 9: Well, I think entrepreneurship continues to be alive and well,
Speaker 9: and the message of the Rise of the Rest book
Speaker 9: is it just isn't alive and well just in places
Speaker 9: like Silicon Valley, it's placed all around the country. They're
Speaker 9: developing a strong startup ecosystems, and that's helpful because entrepreneurs
Speaker 9: who historically would would have to feel like they left
Speaker 9: to leave where they were from to go to the
Speaker 9: coast to be part of the innovation of come and
Speaker 9: now can stay and build and scale there and great
Speaker 9: jobs there. So it's been great to see the momentum
Speaker 9: over the last decade since we started Rise of the Rest,
Speaker 9: the pandemic has certainly been an accelerant, almost a tipping
Speaker 9: point in terms of more people decided to move other places.
Speaker 9: So it's seen a dispersion of talent and spursion of capital,
Speaker 9: and a lot of great ideas that are really kind
Speaker 9: of reimagining healthcare and food and agriculture and financial services
Speaker 9: and transportation and education. Some of the most important aspects
Speaker 9: of our lives and some of the biggest industries are
Speaker 9: really up for grabs in this next next phase.
Speaker 3: Rise of the Rest is the name of the book,
Speaker 3: it's the name of the seed fund as well. Steve,
Speaker 3: what about rise of the rates that we've seen over
Speaker 3: this year to what extent is that hurting the startups
Speaker 3: that you talk to when you interact with well.
Speaker 9: Certainly when rates are higher, you know, there's a little
Speaker 9: bit of a pullback in terms of the stock market
Speaker 9: valuations as we've seen, and they're therefore a pullback in
Speaker 9: terms of particularly the late stage private market valuations, the
Speaker 9: pre IPO valuations. So we've seen that dynamic or the
Speaker 9: last eighteen months or so, which frankly I think is
Speaker 9: healthy and not all that unexpected a couple of years ago.
Speaker 9: Things we're getting a little frothy in that later stage,
Speaker 9: and so we're seeing a correction at the growth stage
Speaker 9: of the market. On the earlier seed side, it's not
Speaker 9: quite the same impact, and particularly in these rises of
Speaker 9: the rest cities. Valuations of the seed investments we've done
Speaker 9: with our rides the Rest Fund, and so far we've
Speaker 9: done two hundred over two hundred investments in one hundred
Speaker 9: different cities, valuations tend to be about half of what
Speaker 9: the valuations are for comparable companies at the seed stage.
Speaker 9: In places like Silicon Valley, it's a classics supply and demand.
Speaker 9: So much capitals focused on a venture capital focused on
Speaker 9: Silicon Valley, not enough on other parts of the country,
Speaker 9: so that dynamics still creates a great opportunity for investors
Speaker 9: who are willing to do the extra work to identify
Speaker 9: promising entrepreneurs tackling big industries in dozens of cities all
Speaker 9: around the country.
Speaker 2: Well, and that's a really good point that you talked
Speaker 2: about all the innovation that's going on in other cities
Speaker 2: beyond Silicon Valley. Having said that, the collapse of Silicon
Speaker 2: Valley Bank and the fallout, what did you see as
Speaker 2: a result of that in terms of the work that
Speaker 2: you're doing, the investments that you're doing or none.
Speaker 9: There was a problem, no, no question. Even though it's
Speaker 9: called Silicon Valley Bank or SVB, actually bank startups all
Speaker 9: over the country, not just in Silicon Valley, and about
Speaker 9: half of the startups, about half of the venture firms
Speaker 9: in America or back by banks by SVB. So it's
Speaker 9: been very unhelpful. A number of firms are trying to
Speaker 9: fill the void and offer different products and services to
Speaker 9: both the venture funds and to the entrepreneurs, but it's
Speaker 9: certainly been a negative this year.
Speaker 2: And one thing we really wanted to ask you and
Speaker 2: was about what's going on in terms of regulation. We've
Speaker 2: been talking a lot about the FTC suit against Amazon,
Speaker 2: right anti trust case. We've all been kind of waiting
Speaker 2: for this, and the accusations are that Amazon is monopolizing
Speaker 2: the online marketplace services by degrading quality for shoppers and
Speaker 2: overcharging sellers. How do you think about this.
Speaker 9: Well, I haven't read the actual case obviously, as you said,
Speaker 9: it's been expected for some time. The FTC has gotten
Speaker 9: more aggressive on big tech and good is that.
Speaker 2: Good that they've got a big.
Speaker 9: More more scrutiny of big tech and it gets healthy.
Speaker 9: My focus, as you know, is around the new companies,
Speaker 9: the entrepreneurs, the insurgents that want to take on some
Speaker 9: of the big incumbents, and making sure that there's an
Speaker 9: environment that allows innovation to flourish, entrepreneurs to be successful,
Speaker 9: including in areas of e commerce. Or have a similar
Speaker 9: case with with Google on some issues related to the search.
Speaker 9: I think that scrutiny is appropriate. Exactly what happens in
Speaker 9: each court case obviously needs to kind of just you know,
Speaker 9: have to see how it plays out. But I think
Speaker 9: it is important that we make sure we're airing on
Speaker 9: the site as a nation of making sure entrepreneurship can
Speaker 9: flourish everywhere, and big tech doesn't just get bigger, including
Speaker 9: by the way, with AI. One of the one of
Speaker 9: the big debates here in Washington around AI as it
Speaker 9: gets more attention, is is it going to end up
Speaker 9: being a few big companies getting even bigger, or is
Speaker 9: it going to be a broader, more dispersed innovation ecosystem
Speaker 9: a little bit more on the open source side. And
Speaker 9: so I will see how that plays out over the
Speaker 9: coming year. But the Internet's not so important. Technology so important.
Speaker 9: Every industry really is now tech enabled. Every company really
Speaker 9: is in some ways a tech company. It's not at
Speaker 9: all surprising that there's more anti trust scrutiny.
Speaker 3: Did it never feel like to you that AOL were
Speaker 3: days of founding and running AOL was so big that
Speaker 3: it could have faced more antitrust scrutiny.
Speaker 9: No, we actually did, and some of the News Corp
Speaker 9: And others at one point, you know, filed suit saying
Speaker 9: had too much control of the Internet. And even when
Speaker 9: we merged with Time Warner, the Microsoft at and T
Speaker 9: others were trying to block the deal with that, you know,
Speaker 9: that argument. And so in that particular case, obviously I
Speaker 9: hate to say it, but for a whole host of reasons,
Speaker 9: AOL failed. By the wayside, new entrants including you know,
Speaker 9: Google and Facebook and others kind of you know, took over.
Speaker 9: And it's because those news companies were able to start,
Speaker 9: They were able to raise the venture capital or not
Speaker 9: barriers to entry to allow them to start. So that's
Speaker 9: the philosophy we need going forward. Celebrate the successes we
Speaker 9: have in our country, including some of these great companies
Speaker 9: Amazon and Google and so many many others, But how
Speaker 9: do we make sure we're also creating environments so more
Speaker 9: of those companies can be the big companies of tomorrow,
Speaker 9: not just on the coast, not just in Silicon Valley,
Speaker 9: but all over the country, which obviously why I wrote
Speaker 9: the book Rise of the Rest.
Speaker 3: So how do we do that?
Speaker 6: Though?
Speaker 3: I mean, we spoke to Diana Henriquez last week, who know,
Speaker 3: compared the power companies of the nineteen twenties and nineteen
Speaker 3: thirties and the regulation of the power companies to the
Speaker 3: tech companies, the huge tech giants today, and she says
Speaker 3: government needs to get involved with them. What does the
Speaker 3: government need to do in order to ensure that the
Speaker 3: rest can rise well?
Speaker 9: I'm marketing, I'm coach sharing the National Advisory Council on
Speaker 9: Innovation and Entrepreneurship here here in Washington, and we're working
Speaker 9: on a National Entrepreneurship Strategy, which we'll be releasing later
Speaker 9: this year. And there's a number of facets to it.
Speaker 9: Some relate that the talent, including immigration policy. Some relate
Speaker 9: to access to capital, including some of the work around
Speaker 9: Rise the rest some of it relates to making sure
Speaker 9: you know, there's continued investment in regional hubs. Congress passed
Speaker 9: the Chips and Science Act a couple of years ago
Speaker 9: and authorized ten billion dollars for regional hubs, with its
Speaker 9: only so far appropriated five hundred million dollars of it.
Speaker 9: Someone's making sure America continues to invest in the R
Speaker 9: and D, the technologies of the future to create the
Speaker 9: industries of the future. So there's many facets to it,
Speaker 9: but the overarching theme, I think is how do you
Speaker 9: make sure this next generational entrepreneurs can start and scale
Speaker 9: and do it anywhere in the country, not just a
Speaker 9: few big companies being able to innovate, or only people
Speaker 9: in a few places like Selictated Valley. So it's trying
Speaker 9: to create a more inclusive innovation economy has to be
Speaker 9: a key part of the answer.
Speaker 2: Steve. We're often so critical of other countries and their
Speaker 2: supportive industries. I'm thinking about China specifically, But you know,
Speaker 2: we are increasingly seeing the US, whether it's in the
Speaker 2: semiconductor space, whether it's in the EV or the energy
Speaker 2: transition support industries here in the United States. Should we,
Speaker 2: especially when it comes to some of the more newer
Speaker 2: innovative areas.
Speaker 9: Yes, and again there's sort of this long debate about
Speaker 9: industrial policy, long debate about how much of a role
Speaker 9: should government play. But the reality is the Internet wouldn't
Speaker 9: exist if the government hadn't funded you know, Darper Research
Speaker 9: Agency a half a century ago and then open it up,
Speaker 9: commercialized access to the Internet, and broken up the phone
Speaker 9: company so the costs of communications came down. There are
Speaker 9: a number of decisions that unleashed the Internet. So having
Speaker 9: that government role I think is important. That we the
Speaker 9: innovators need to respect the role of policy makers. I
Speaker 9: actually think in the next decade the two mega themes
Speaker 9: are going to be place and policy. That we're focused
Speaker 9: here at revolution around place, particularly rise the rest. We
Speaker 9: think a lot of the big companies that tomorrow will
Speaker 9: have a policy aspect to them because of the nature
Speaker 9: of the industries up for grabs, and because Congress has
Speaker 9: passed legislation about three trillion dollars of legislation, the Chips
Speaker 9: and Science Act, the Inflation Reduction Act, the Bipartisan Infrastructure
Speaker 9: Bill that's going to really invest in these industries in
Speaker 9: a big way and create opportunities for investors as well
Speaker 9: as ensuring that America has the right infrastructure, has the
Speaker 9: right technologies to continue to be the most innovative entrepreneurs
Speaker 9: in the world.
Speaker 2: Got to say, Steve, every time you're on you just
Speaker 2: leave us wanting more. So come back soon and good
Speaker 2: luck with the paperbook, a paperback version, I should say,
Speaker 2: a rise of the rest entrepreal.
Speaker 9: Thank you?
Speaker 2: Okay, if you well how entrepreneurs and surprising places are
Speaker 2: building the new American dream. Of course, the case.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us
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Speaker 2: Boys, all right, this next story safe to say we're
Speaker 2: trying to figure out exactly who may be the bad actors. Here,
Speaker 2: you can say bad boys, bad boys. Step back first. Google,
Speaker 2: as you know, maintains one of the world's most comprehensive
Speaker 2: repositories of location information. It can often estimate a user's
Speaker 2: we'reabouts to within several feet. The company mainly gathers this
Speaker 2: information to sell advertising, but in recent years police started
Speaker 2: dipping into it to further their investigations.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the company's trove of user data now attracts thousands
Speaker 3: of requests from law enforcement across the US in cases
Speaker 3: large and small. Police say the warrants can unearth valuable
Speaker 3: leads when the textas are at a but to get
Speaker 3: those leads, cops often have to rummage through Google data
Speaker 3: on people who had nothing to do with a crime call.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of information there for them to go over.
Speaker 2: To better understand this process and its consequences, we dive
Speaker 2: into this week's Bloomberg Business Week cover story with our
Speaker 2: Bloomberg News tech team of Julia Love and Davey Alba,
Speaker 2: as well as the editor of the magazine, jel Weber.
Speaker 2: Jill's here in our Bloomberg Interactor Brokers Studio, Julia out
Speaker 2: there in our San Francisco bureau and Davy on the
Speaker 2: phone from Stanford, California. As you said, it's the cover
Speaker 2: story in the new issue on newstands online, and of
Speaker 2: course on the Bloomberg jail killer story.
Speaker 10: Julia, Davey and company have been working on this for
Speaker 10: a while and I from the moment I found out
Speaker 10: about it, I was like, tell me everything. And it
Speaker 10: required just a ton of data and analysis for us
Speaker 10: to actually be able to look at this story. But
Speaker 10: what it revealed is that there's a troubling element to
Speaker 10: how law enforcement has turned increasingly to Google over the
Speaker 10: past couple years, and the location history that people have
Speaker 10: on their phone search data, all of that is basically
Speaker 10: become a tool that can reverse engineer people who are
Speaker 10: at scenes of crimes, and sometimes being at a location
Speaker 10: nerolocation does not actually mean that you did the crime.
Speaker 10: And that's sort of where it gets interesting and where
Speaker 10: privacy experts in particular are a little terrified of how
Speaker 10: this is actually shaping up in the real world. So Julia,
Speaker 10: let's start with you. How did you, how did how
Speaker 10: did you happen upon this story? And where did where
Speaker 10: did you have to go? In order to piece it
Speaker 10: all together.
Speaker 11: Sure, well, in the wake of the Supreme Court's decision
Speaker 11: to overturn Roe versus Way, there was a lot of
Speaker 11: interest in how law enforcement would use all of the
Speaker 11: data that Goodle has about us, and so we wanted
Speaker 11: to look at the search warrants that police are submitting
Speaker 11: to DOODLE because we knew that that was the best
Speaker 11: way that we could get a handle on what was
Speaker 11: actually happening. And so to do that, Davy and I
Speaker 11: and our colleges fanned out to different courthouses around the
Speaker 11: country and we just took it page by page, thumbing
Speaker 11: through these warrants, identifying the ones that were submitted to DOODLE,
Speaker 11: and then scrutinizing them to see the nature of the
Speaker 11: case and what cops ultimately got.
Speaker 10: So give us an example of how this has played
Speaker 10: out in the real world.
Speaker 11: So one interesting example, there was a young detective in
Speaker 11: North Carolina.
Speaker 12: He's getting ready for work.
Speaker 11: He leaves his car running and he comes out and
Speaker 11: the car's gone and inside is.
Speaker 6: Set the car herene.
Speaker 12: Yes, it's a personal vehicle.
Speaker 11: Yeah, but but but there's gear inside and it's done.
Speaker 11: And you know, the department tells him you know, they're
Speaker 11: very supportive. They reassure him it'll be all right. But
Speaker 11: then they go to work and they turned to Google.
Speaker 11: They send them a warrant for everyone who's devices were
Speaker 11: near the place where the vehicle disappeared, and they also
Speaker 11: asked for information about people who searched for the model
Speaker 11: of the radio. And Goodle told us that they didn't
Speaker 11: provide search data, but they did provide some location data.
Speaker 12: And so this is, you know, just a real world.
Speaker 11: Example of how property crimes are attracting these requests.
Speaker 3: And obviously with that information, they were able to get
Speaker 3: the radio back, right, they were.
Speaker 12: Not the radio outstanding, you see.
Speaker 2: So Davey, come on in on this, because what it
Speaker 2: really turns upside down, And you guys lay this out
Speaker 2: so clearly in the story. The idea of a search warrant, right,
Speaker 2: would be typically on an individual, right, And now you've
Speaker 2: got thanks to Google, you can take a location and
Speaker 2: kind of search for information. But it feels like it
Speaker 2: opens up that information can reach a wider swath potentially
Speaker 2: of individuals, some who may not at all be connected
Speaker 2: to a possible crime. So come on in on that.
Speaker 13: Yeah, absolutely, So tech companies hold a lot of data
Speaker 13: on people. That's no surprise. But usually when you think
Speaker 13: of search warrants in the traditional sense, you would think, okay,
Speaker 13: police are looking at this one suspect, let's go and
Speaker 13: learn more about them, and maybe we'll serve a search
Speaker 13: warrant to a company to get information on a particular
Speaker 13: individual a suspect. In this case, police are using the
Speaker 13: most basic parameters to even jumpstart sort of leads when
Speaker 13: they don't have any leads. So they'll they'll, for instance,
Speaker 13: give for location coordinates. These are just x y coordinates
Speaker 13: on a map, and then within these four points you'll
Speaker 13: draw like a little polygon. And then they will say
Speaker 13: to a judge, like, we have reasonable expectations that there
Speaker 13: will be a criminal that we can find within this
Speaker 13: area if you sign off on this warrant for a
Speaker 13: certain period of time. So that's Geofen's warrants. And then
Speaker 13: you know, police are also increasingly using search warrants, keyword
Speaker 13: search warrants, I should say, which are you know, sort
Speaker 13: of warrants that are served to Google to try to
Speaker 13: surface people who have googled a certain term. So in
Speaker 13: one of the cases that we covered in our story,
Speaker 13: there was a terrible crime. It was an arson and
Speaker 13: a family died in this fire. And what investigators did
Speaker 13: was go to Google and say, hey, did anyone search
Speaker 13: for this address? So so that that yielded some some
Speaker 13: suspects in that case, Well.
Speaker 10: Let's let's stick with that one, because that one hasn't
Speaker 10: totally played out yet, and it gets to I think
Speaker 10: maybe the ultimate tension in the story, right.
Speaker 13: Yeah, absolutely, that that one. You know, the Colorado Supreme
Speaker 13: Court is going to rule on it. We don't know
Speaker 13: exactly when, but we're expecting it to come down at
Speaker 13: some point this year to just sort of decide whether
Speaker 13: or not Google providing that data to investigators was an
Speaker 13: overreach on the investigator's part. And and if you think
Speaker 13: about especially searching on Google, that is just so many
Speaker 13: people that that could ensnare you know, going back to
Speaker 13: the example that Julia mentioned at the at the very beginning,
Speaker 13: they police had served Google with a warrant for anyone
Speaker 13: searching on this particular car radio model, and Google did
Speaker 13: not turn over data in that case, to be clear,
Speaker 13: but you could imagine people like radio enthusiasts who might
Speaker 13: be searching for a particular radio model completely innocently who
Speaker 13: could potentially get swept up in one of these warrants.
Speaker 10: So I'm guessing privacy experts have something to say about
Speaker 10: this and activists because you know, if Carol, tim and
Speaker 10: I get swept up in the same search, I didn't
Speaker 10: do it. Okay, truly I didn't do it, but I did.
Speaker 10: I'm making fun of something that is incredibly serious. But
Speaker 10: what do the privacy advocates have to say about all
Speaker 10: of this?
Speaker 2: Julie, you want to come back?
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, So privacy advocates are very concerned about both
Speaker 11: of these techniques. You know, the thing is, if there's
Speaker 11: no suspect involved, then the only way that goodle can
Speaker 11: provide a list of hits is to search everyone's data.
Speaker 11: And so law enforcement will receive, you know, a short
Speaker 11: list of people who fit the criteria, and they then
Speaker 11: have to go through and identify who they think, you know,
Speaker 11: might be their suspect. But everyday, people who had nothing
Speaker 11: to do with the crime are often swept up by
Speaker 11: these by these warrants, and so I think that's really
Speaker 11: the heart of privacy advocates concerns, and legislation has been
Speaker 11: proposed in California and New York that would ban the
Speaker 11: police from seeking these warrants of Google. The legislation has
Speaker 11: stalled so far, but activists are still hoping to get
Speaker 11: something done on that front. And the Colorado case would
Speaker 11: also be the first time that a court weighs in
Speaker 11: on the on the constitutionality of that keyword search technique.
Speaker 6: Okay, so how does Google feel all about this?
Speaker 11: It puts them in a difficult spot. You know, these
Speaker 11: are court orders. They're they're not optional. Goodle has to
Speaker 11: comply and they often are important cases.
Speaker 12: However, safe driving user privacy is you.
Speaker 11: Know, a tey responsibility that they have, and so they
Speaker 11: have to walk a very fine line there.
Speaker 6: Okay, so what about insight?
Speaker 10: There's the official Google response, and then there's what you
Speaker 10: were able to report from within the company with some
Speaker 10: great reporting.
Speaker 6: What did what did some of those sources reveal?
Speaker 11: Yeah, so we we found that there there's a department
Speaker 11: within Goodle that's responsible for scrutinizing these requests. It's a
Speaker 11: midst of lawyers and l I S specialists and the
Speaker 11: as specialists, you know, the rank and file.
Speaker 12: There are often just a few years out of college.
Speaker 11: Some of them harbor dreams of becoming a lawyer, and
Speaker 11: I think they're often quite motivated by, you know, this
Speaker 11: job of really scrutinizing law enforcement requests. We heard of
Speaker 11: examples in which they were really just looking for any
Speaker 11: reason to send the request back to law enforcement. In
Speaker 11: one case, you know, an officer might send a request
Speaker 11: for email from an account ending in at gmail dot com.
Speaker 12: But if the officer has a typo, if.
Speaker 11: They say at gamble dot com, that's a note, they
Speaker 11: would send that request back. But nonetheless, if it's been
Speaker 11: signed off by a judge, you know, eventually they're going
Speaker 11: to get something.
Speaker 10: And by the way, LI s legal investigation support. I
Speaker 10: find this just fascinating because it's like Google's kind of
Speaker 10: their hands are tied here, right, Like, yeah, if law
Speaker 10: enforcement asks for something, a judge signs off on it,
Speaker 10: they're going to have to comply. But I love that
Speaker 10: there's like this element within the company that's like, you
Speaker 10: spilled Gmail wrong, You're not going to get.
Speaker 6: To what you're asking for.
Speaker 3: I once spilled Gmail wrong when I'm trying to pay
Speaker 3: a traffic ticket. So I parking ticket, so I had
Speaker 3: to pay it twice. Oh yeah, because I got a
Speaker 3: late fee for it. So never I always check how
Speaker 3: I spelled you.
Speaker 2: But the point is once they give information on case like,
Speaker 2: how can they pick and choose right? Like once the
Speaker 2: door is open like you do wonder if they're asked
Speaker 2: and requested as long as they get the Gmail right,
Speaker 2: you know, do they just have to do it? Julia?
Speaker 12: Yes, you know.
Speaker 11: I think there's an old dodge in Silitan Valley. If
Speaker 11: you build it, they will come, they say. Essentially, if
Speaker 11: you collect this data, law enforcement will come knocking and
Speaker 11: they will eventually find a way to get it. And
Speaker 11: so I think that's just the heart of this issue.
Speaker 11: Google collects this data in large part because it helps
Speaker 11: them sell advertising, and as a result they they are
Speaker 11: in this uncomfortable position.
Speaker 3: Davy all will come back in here. I always wonder
Speaker 3: when you know people work on a story like this
Speaker 3: and learn so much about how our information is collected,
Speaker 3: are you going to change the way you use these services?
Speaker 3: Perch after reading the story, I want to change the
Speaker 3: way I use these services.
Speaker 13: Well, yeah, I mean I think it's it's a good
Speaker 13: reminder to all of us to take a look at
Speaker 13: our opt out slash opt in options on our settings
Speaker 13: for various Google services. You know, Google told us that
Speaker 13: this one product that they particularly use to store location data,
Speaker 13: called location History, is off by default, but there they
Speaker 13: do send notifications to people to sort of suggest, hey,
Speaker 13: do you want to turn this feature on? It could
Speaker 13: help you in all sorts of ways. For instance, if
Speaker 13: you wanted to remember where you were last week, or
Speaker 13: see how many miles you've traveled, or just kind of
Speaker 13: have a cool record of where you've been and you
Speaker 13: know what places you visited, right, And I think that
Speaker 13: that's not always clear when you're seeing these like features
Speaker 13: pitched to you, that there could be privacy consequences there.
Speaker 6: I just want to end on in a big number.
Speaker 10: Google says it received a record sixty four hundred and
Speaker 10: seventy two search worms in the US last year. That's
Speaker 10: more than double number from twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2: So this is the vanvo the use all right, Julia Love,
Speaker 2: David Alban of course, Jill Weber, this is the cover story.
Speaker 2: Check it out. Lots of details in that story.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us
Speaker 1: live weekday afternoons from three to six Easter on Bloomberg Radio,
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Business app and YouTube. You can also listen
Speaker 1: live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station.
Speaker 1: Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Speaker 2: We've got a great guest to get into what's going
Speaker 2: on when it comes to technology, but really the glolobal
Speaker 2: battle among the three dominant digital powers when it comes
Speaker 2: to regulating the space and influencing it.
Speaker 3: It's the subject of a brand new book, Digital Empires,
Speaker 3: The Global Battle to Regulate Technology, written by a new Bradford,
Speaker 3: Professor at Columbia Law School and senior scholar at Columbia
Speaker 3: Business School. The book of follow up to her book
Speaker 3: The Brussels Effect, a term that she coined. She joins
Speaker 3: us on a zoom here in New York City. It's
Speaker 3: good to have you with us, professor, How are you good?
Speaker 14: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3: Well, thanks so much for joining us. So interesting. We
Speaker 3: talked about regulating technology last week. That Diana Henriquez, who
Speaker 3: wrote a book about the Well's written many books, but
Speaker 3: her most recent book is about the SEC and the
Speaker 3: development of the SEC under FDR. And we asked her
Speaker 3: what you know that what needs to be regulated in
Speaker 3: this day and age, and without hesitation, she said it
Speaker 3: was technology and I'm wondering, how are you looking at
Speaker 3: that through the lens of your book, especially outside of
Speaker 3: the United States.
Speaker 14: Yeah, so they certainly is a growing consensus the world
Speaker 14: that technology needs rules and the governments do need to
Speaker 14: step in, but there is no consensus what those rules
Speaker 14: really ought to look like. So in the book, I
Speaker 14: argue that there are three prominent ways to think about
Speaker 14: governing technology. There is the American market driven way, there
Speaker 14: is that Chinese state driven way, and then there's a third,
Speaker 14: the European rights driven regulatory model.
Speaker 3: Talk about the European one because that's kind of freshener
Speaker 3: in our thoughts because of what Apple did with its
Speaker 3: new USB C connector, because that's the result of.
Speaker 14: Regulation, absolutely, and that was one of those manifestations of
Speaker 14: the Brussels effect, whereby rules that are set in the
Speaker 14: European Union find their way into the global production and
Speaker 14: global conduct of the tech companies. But basically, unlike the
Speaker 14: Americans that really have focused on free market, free internet
Speaker 14: and sort of maximizing the opportunities for innovation, the Chinese
Speaker 14: and that really want to bring the state there to
Speaker 14: leverage technology, including to maintain political control. The European rights
Speaker 14: driven models starts from this presumption that digital revolution needs
Speaker 14: to be human centric, the preservation of the democratic structures
Speaker 14: of the society, the fundamental rights of the individuals take
Speaker 14: the center stage, but also incorporates this notion of a
Speaker 14: more fair digital economy so that we redistribute some of
Speaker 14: the gains from the tech companies to the smaller players,
Speaker 14: to users, and to the public at large.
Speaker 2: So, Professor Bradford, do you is it kind of going
Speaker 2: to follow the same path as we've seen to some
Speaker 2: extent with climate regulation and oversight, And also even I
Speaker 2: feel like global regulatory oversight when it comes to markets,
Speaker 2: it does feel like the EU leads away on a
Speaker 2: lot of stuff. So that is exactly right.
Speaker 14: Europeans have consistently just shown that they are much more
Speaker 14: comfortable with government intervening and much more skeptical with the
Speaker 14: idea that markets on their own, left to their own devices,
Speaker 14: would generate optimal outcomes. So the Europeans have been the
Speaker 14: forderunners when it comes to regulating food safety, consuming the
Speaker 14: protection the environment, the battle to mitigate climate change, and
Speaker 14: now I think one of the newest frontiers has been
Speaker 14: the regulation of technology, where again the Europeans are showing
Speaker 14: the way.
Speaker 2: Why is it so important that we'd be having this
Speaker 2: discussion right now?
Speaker 14: So I think that if you just look at the
Speaker 14: vast power of these tech companies, they have the economic power,
Speaker 14: political power, informational power, cultural power. They're really shaping the
Speaker 14: societies and the lives of individuals around the world.
Speaker 2: And I will say just for a second, when we
Speaker 2: had Diana Henrikson, when we'd ask for who are the
Speaker 2: power brokers back in the nineteen twenty it was industrialists, right,
Speaker 2: and she made the point of the power brokers today
Speaker 2: are those that are in control of data, whether it's
Speaker 2: Google or you know, Amazon, pick your company, but they
Speaker 2: are the power brokers. But anyway, go ahead and continue.
Speaker 14: That is exactly right, and that is one of the
Speaker 14: main concerns that the Europeans in particular take the view
Speaker 14: that we cannot let these companies to be the power brokers,
Speaker 14: that we need to then bind them to the rule
Speaker 14: of law and subject they conduct to democratic oversights. So
Speaker 14: we do need to bring the governments that are representing
Speaker 14: the people back to the table and then sort of
Speaker 14: directing the course of our digital economy.
Speaker 3: Based on the books that you've written, the research that
Speaker 3: you've done the work that you've done, which approach is
Speaker 3: the best?
Speaker 6: So look, I.
Speaker 14: Am a believer in the digital transformation needing a liberal,
Speaker 14: democratic foundation, So there is no way that I can
Speaker 14: endorse the Chinese digital authoritarian model. I think that is
Speaker 14: too oppressive. It infringes individual rights and liberties and subjects
Speaker 14: population to massive and as surveillance. So I have many
Speaker 14: issues with the Chinese model, even though I must recognize
Speaker 14: that China has done really well in devel developing technologies
Speaker 14: even without having freedom as the foundation of the society.
Speaker 14: But if the Chinese model is too oppressive, I think
Speaker 14: the American model can be viewed as too permissive, and
Speaker 14: it has really failed to step in to protect the
Speaker 14: fundamental rights to protect our data and just placed too
Speaker 14: much of the trust in tech companies that have then
Speaker 14: failed to carry out their task as guardians of our
Speaker 14: data and protectors of the digital space. So that really
Speaker 14: leaves the European model as the one that I think
Speaker 14: best advances public interests and checks the corporate power and
Speaker 14: ultimately then leads to aa more sort of fear thriving
Speaker 14: discal society.
Speaker 2: So does the EU and the US align on this
Speaker 2: because it sounds like that's what needs to happen.
Speaker 14: I think that is exactly right, that ultimately you would
Speaker 14: need both the US and the EO to join forces
Speaker 14: and align behind a sort of same set of principles
Speaker 14: for that governance model to be effected. And I would
Speaker 14: say that there is a shift underway in the US.
Speaker 14: So the US itself is now starting to rethink it's
Speaker 14: technol libertarian commitments and starting to ask whether the markets
Speaker 14: really are capable of governing the digital economy. And you
Speaker 14: see the public opinion both shifting. You see that many
Speaker 14: bills being proposed in Congress, and that indicates that there
Speaker 14: certainly is a different conversation about technology that is much
Speaker 14: more closer to the European rights driven model than what
Speaker 14: we've seen in the past.
Speaker 2: You write right that this battle over digital quote will
Speaker 2: ultimately determine the soul of the digital economy, defining what
Speaker 2: kind of society we will live in for years and
Speaker 2: decades to come, in a battle that the US nor
Speaker 2: the EU can afford to lose. If we don't get
Speaker 2: this right.
Speaker 14: Then what so what ultimately to me is at stake here?
Speaker 14: The biggest battle is really about liberal democracy, and I
Speaker 14: think the US and the EU should remember that liberal
Speaker 14: democracy can be lost in one of two ways. So
Speaker 14: one is if the US and EU will lose the
Speaker 14: horizontal battle to China and the world is turning more authoritarian.
Speaker 14: But also if the US and the EU you lose
Speaker 14: the vertical battle to the tech companies and fail to
Speaker 14: effectively control them, because if that happens, then the true
Speaker 14: digital empires are either the authoritarians or then the tech
Speaker 14: companies either. So Luisa's sustainable for anybody who believes in
Speaker 14: liberal democracy.
Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting, Carol, I say this over and
Speaker 3: over again, but if there's you know, there's not much
Speaker 3: that unites Democrats and Republicans here in the US and Congress.
Speaker 2: This does bring them together.
Speaker 3: It does at least the idea of regulating big tech
Speaker 3: right quote unquote regulating big tech the way they want
Speaker 3: to do it is certainly different, and the reasons why
Speaker 3: are different, but you know, they want to do it.
Speaker 2: It's a really good point. And I also feel like
Speaker 2: there's a fair amount of streaming services out there, are
Speaker 2: streaming series out there that reminds you when data takes over,
Speaker 2: like kind of what happens to our world Professor Bradford,
Speaker 2: thank you so much, really appreciate the time with you.
Speaker 2: A new Bradford, Professor at Columbia Law School, Senior Scholar
Speaker 2: at Columbia Business School on zoo from New York City.
Speaker 2: Her new book, Digital Empire is the global battle to
Speaker 2: regulate technology.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us
Speaker 1: live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen on
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot Com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App,
Speaker 1: or watched us live on YouTube.
Speaker 2: Plenty ahead in our second hour of the weekend edition
Speaker 2: of Bloomberg Business Week, including lots of laughs with Caroline Hirsch, she,
Speaker 2: of course the founder of Caroline's on Broadway on her
Speaker 2: next act, also a business travel primmer from our Bloomberg
Speaker 2: Pursuits team, and the bank failure that rocked a tiny
Speaker 2: Kansas town which may have involved pig butchering the crypto version.
Speaker 3: First up this hour, though art imitating life once again
Speaker 3: Dumb Money in Theaters earlier this month. It's the real
Speaker 3: life story brought to the big screen of the working
Speaker 3: class redditors who became investors during the pandemic, making and
Speaker 3: losing lots of money and turning Wall Street upside down
Speaker 3: in the process.
Speaker 2: I recently caught up with Aaron Ryder, one of the
Speaker 2: film's co producers, to get the backstory of how this
Speaker 2: project came together in the midst of the COVID pandemic
Speaker 2: and memestock mania.
Speaker 10: Yowd up, everybody growing kitty here, I'm going to pick
Speaker 10: a stock and talk about why I think it's interesting,
Speaker 10: and that stock is game stock.
Speaker 1: Retailed traders have hooked into games stock.
Speaker 2: I think they think it's a good investment. It looks
Speaker 2: like there's one guy driving all the buying.
Speaker 6: Who is the shot?
Speaker 9: All right?
Speaker 2: Well, art imitating life once again this week, opening nationally today,
Speaker 2: Dumb Money, the real life story brought to the big
Speaker 2: screen of the working class redditors who became investors during
Speaker 2: the pandemic making and I'm guess I'm losing some money
Speaker 2: along the way as well, and perhaps even more interestingly
Speaker 2: and shockingly, turning Wall Street upside down. Jess. We were
Speaker 2: living this day to day as it played out during
Speaker 2: the pandemic.
Speaker 15: Especially when you think of GME for GameStop, amc all
Speaker 15: these names that come to mind that we're just taking
Speaker 15: off in the beginning.
Speaker 2: Of twenty twenty one, right out of nowhere, and like
Speaker 2: it was like, wait's what we're going here? Fundamentals? Who
Speaker 2: cares out the window? All right, So let's get to it.
Speaker 2: Because Aaron Ryder is producer of Dumb Money, as we said,
Speaker 2: this movie opening nationally today. He joins us on Zoom
Speaker 2: in Los Angeles, aeron No Stranger to the Big Screen.
Speaker 2: Among other things. He of course did producer Christopher Nolan's Memento,
Speaker 2: So really good to have him here. Welcome, welcome erin
Speaker 2: big day, big movie. We all lived it, so we've
Speaker 2: all been talking about a big time in the newsroom.
Speaker 2: Looking at your trailer, there's a word in it that
Speaker 2: we sometimes say in the newsroom, but it was said
Speaker 2: a lot in the trailer because it was a crazy time.
Speaker 2: What was the spark catalyst, media headline conversation that got
Speaker 2: your attention, made you want to do a movie about this?
Speaker 16: Well, first off, thanks for having me CoA to talk
Speaker 16: to you guys. So I was in Montreal up in
Speaker 16: quarantine when this was all going down in January twenty
Speaker 16: twenty one. Back then it was before the vaccines, as
Speaker 16: you probably remember, and when you went from the United
Speaker 16: States and Canada, you had to do a fourteen day
Speaker 16: state mandated quarantine. So I was pretty much glued to
Speaker 16: the internet just hearing all these headlines and seeing everything
Speaker 16: that was going down, and I could not escape all
Speaker 16: of this news about the store that I kind of
Speaker 16: knew about when you go to the mall and why
Speaker 16: it's stock was going through the roof. It was you know,
Speaker 16: you guys were covering it. It was everywhere, and so
Speaker 16: it was hard to ignore it.
Speaker 2: So how do you take something that right? It was
Speaker 2: in our face and all of us were trying to
Speaker 2: make sense of it. So how do you say, Wow,
Speaker 2: that's really interesting and it's a conversation with your buddies,
Speaker 2: versus I want to do something more with it, so
Speaker 2: take us there.
Speaker 16: Well, I had got this great phone call from a
Speaker 16: guy named Kevin Lark, who happened to own the studio
Speaker 16: that I have a deal with or how to deal
Speaker 16: with at the time, and he basically was like, look,
Speaker 16: I think there's a movie here. And the amazing thing
Speaker 16: about this, you know, not just because it was in
Speaker 16: the headlines. Not every headline will make a great movie,
Speaker 16: but there was this great David versus Goliath theme woven
Speaker 16: throughout this.
Speaker 17: And you know, it wasn't just me or Kevin or
Speaker 17: anyone else that thought there could be a movie here.
Speaker 16: Half of Hollywood was chasing the story, thinking that it
Speaker 16: could be a great idea for film, and so it
Speaker 16: became a real race to try to get the rights
Speaker 16: to a book or a podcast to serve as the
Speaker 16: basis for that story.
Speaker 2: You also, from what I understand, track down Ben Mezrich's
Speaker 2: book Dumb Money Adventures of a Day Trader, which is
Speaker 2: what the film is based on. So I'm just get
Speaker 2: us there, like, how did that did you reach out to?
Speaker 8: Or no?
Speaker 13: Ben?
Speaker 17: It was kind of an amazing moment.
Speaker 16: You know, I'd heard this rumor that Ben, who had
Speaker 16: written you know, he's covered so many of these things
Speaker 16: in his career, has written books on so many great
Speaker 16: topics that've been turned into great movies, including the Social Network,
Speaker 16: And so I heard that Ben had a book proposal
Speaker 16: and everyone was after it. So I kind of found
Speaker 16: my way into the heart of his agent and convinced
Speaker 16: him get me a copy of the seven page book
Speaker 16: proposal that he was currently writing on the on the
Speaker 16: phenomenon that we were all watching.
Speaker 17: So I heard about it, and you know, and did
Speaker 17: what us producers do.
Speaker 16: We chased material and good ideas and got this book proposal,
Speaker 16: and you know, it was all kind of there. You
Speaker 16: could feel how you could easily turn the story into
Speaker 16: a narrative for a film that would capture an audience.
Speaker 16: So that getting that thing and working with Ben, who
Speaker 16: could not have been a better you know, architect of
Speaker 16: a story like this.
Speaker 2: You know, thank you Wall Street. Right, it just kind
Speaker 2: of continues to give and give, whether it's the Great
Speaker 2: financial crisis, whether it's tech bubbles, whether it's the creation
Speaker 2: of some incredible companies, Like there's just unbelievable stories. Having
Speaker 2: said that, like when you look at something like what
Speaker 2: happened during this meme stock Eras, there's a lot of
Speaker 2: stories in it. There's you know, just the trading element.
Speaker 2: There's the individuals who were involved who were not the
Speaker 2: normal people Aaron that we here at Bloomberg typically write about.
Speaker 17: No, it was your one hundred percent right.
Speaker 16: It was like in this moment, as we were all
Speaker 16: trapped in our homes, maybe with a little bit more
Speaker 16: money from the stimulus check that you got, and we
Speaker 16: were glued to you know, we did not have the
Speaker 16: connectivity to our friends or our family. We began to
Speaker 16: form communities online and I feel like this moment was
Speaker 16: like the moment that Wall Street was gamified and in
Speaker 16: some ways democratize, where people that normally hadn't been in
Speaker 16: bested on Wall Street and paying attention to these sort
Speaker 16: of things. They gathered around this movement and an army gathered,
Speaker 16: and I feel like this was the first time that
Speaker 16: you saw that, and Wall Street felt the impact of
Speaker 16: that army that gathered.
Speaker 2: How did you think about, like what the stories you
Speaker 2: wanted to tell specifically, right, because it's really fun to
Speaker 2: look at the trailer and I was thinking about you know,
Speaker 2: Ken Griffin and you know others that are certainly individuals
Speaker 2: that we talk about all the time here, Steve Cohen,
Speaker 2: Gabe Plotkin. So there's you know, the establishment side of it.
Speaker 2: Then there's the redditors in terms of you know, these people,
Speaker 2: their worlds were changing dramatically. So just as you approach
Speaker 2: this project, what were the stories you wanted to make
Speaker 2: sure you got out there?
Speaker 17: Well, it's a great question.
Speaker 16: You know, we really wanted to make this movie about
Speaker 16: it for those people that were on the reddit boards,
Speaker 16: the people that were involved in this and got involved,
Speaker 16: and you know, it starts with Keith Gill Roaring Kitty.
Speaker 16: He was in large part the face of this movement
Speaker 16: and the person that we all kind of identified with
Speaker 16: the game stuff phenomena, So you knew he had to
Speaker 16: be a you know, the focal point of a lot
Speaker 16: of the story, and any very much he is. I
Speaker 16: mean that's where it all kind of started. So and
Speaker 16: then it was really Ben's book and the research that
Speaker 16: he did, and Lauren and Rebecca are two screenwriters who
Speaker 16: were able to kind of do a bunch of research
Speaker 16: and find these real people who went through this experience,
Speaker 16: and there's so many. The hard part was kind of
Speaker 16: discerning the people that were involved with us and finding
Speaker 16: there's really great stories that had a satisfying ending to
Speaker 16: him or had a little bit of tragedy to him,
Speaker 16: with the things that would make a good movie. You know,
Speaker 16: we weren't making a documentary here. What we're trying to
Speaker 16: do is make something that shows this moment in time
Speaker 16: that we all lived through. But it was actually really
Speaker 16: a fun moment because we'd never seen anything like this before.
Speaker 2: I'm curious who you talked to. I remember talking to
Speaker 2: Oliver Stone about Wall Street and then the sequel of
Speaker 2: like who did you talk to? To get the feel?
Speaker 2: Even the same thing with Billions, like we've done a
Speaker 2: panel here at Bloomberg and the guys like who did
Speaker 2: you because they really did talk to, you know, folks
Speaker 2: on Wall Street really to kind of get the feel
Speaker 2: and make sure they were accurate. Who did you talk to?
Speaker 2: In making this?
Speaker 16: Well, you know, look, there's so much stuff that's out
Speaker 16: there true right now. Yeah, there's so much stuff that
Speaker 16: you can learn, and there's so many things in the
Speaker 16: headlines because everybody was talking about this, and when you
Speaker 16: go see the movie, it's a very easy film to understand.
Speaker 16: You do not have to be an investor in Wall
Speaker 16: Street to understand this movie, nor do you have to
Speaker 16: be some sort of economics major to understand what was
Speaker 16: going on here. It's a movie for the everyman, and
Speaker 16: that's really important in their construction of it. We didn't
Speaker 16: want to be, you know, weighing this down with jargon
Speaker 16: about you know, the economy or jargon about like investing
Speaker 16: in that sort of thing. We're trying to make it
Speaker 16: for and every man. So we took that approach, and
Speaker 16: so in our research. It was really focusing on the
Speaker 16: everyday people and how they look at the at investing
Speaker 16: and how they look at the stock market and how
Speaker 16: they maybe even see that the system may very well
Speaker 16: be ripped.
Speaker 2: And I was wondering, when you were, you know, certainly
Speaker 2: reading the headlines like the rest of us, did you
Speaker 2: did you trade in any of these? Did you actually
Speaker 2: participate in any of this in terms of the market trade.
Speaker 17: It's really funny actually.
Speaker 2: Because I had You're going to say, yeah, aren't you?
Speaker 16: Yeah, Yeah, I totally am. You know, I actually got
Speaker 16: my Robinhood account. I wanted to understand how it worked
Speaker 16: and how it operated, so I got involved with robin
Speaker 16: Hood and I wanted to see how people were doing it.
Speaker 17: So I very much participated.
Speaker 16: I got involved with that and I started buy a
Speaker 16: couple of shares here and there, just kind of see
Speaker 16: how the everyman was going about and I needed to
Speaker 16: understand how the apparatus worked as well. So yeah, I
Speaker 16: got I got deep in it. And I think there's
Speaker 16: no other way to read the understand it unless you're doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally agreed. Did you make money in the process.
Speaker 17: I can't. I don't even can tell you how much
Speaker 17: money I lost?
Speaker 2: Well, and that's part of it. What's really kind of wild, though,
Speaker 2: these individuals who started to be honest with you, Like
Speaker 2: I just remember on a day when we'd have to
Speaker 2: like highlight a stock and it obviously we're going to
Speaker 2: highlight these because they were moving in such a dramatic
Speaker 2: way in a market where you know, these were names
Speaker 2: and individuals who were shaping the overall trade. It was
Speaker 2: pretty phenomenal. Aaron, don't go anywhere, because I'm curious about
Speaker 2: the actors that were lined up and just as the
Speaker 2: movie progressed, just what you were kind of feeling and
Speaker 2: the feedback you were getting. And I'm also curious about
Speaker 2: the real life Steve Cohen's or Gaye Plotkins or Ken Griffin,
Speaker 2: if you've heard from any of them. So hang on,
Speaker 2: we're going to come back to you in just a moment.
Speaker 2: We're going to continue with Aaron Ryder, producer of Dumb Money,
Speaker 2: on Zoom from Los Angeles. I have to say, Jess,
Speaker 2: I haven't seen the movie yet either have I, But
Speaker 2: but I was thinking about, like you were here right
Speaker 2: with all of our Wall Street team and reporting on things,
Speaker 2: and it was just kind of crazy.
Speaker 15: It really was wild, and you couldn't stop following it,
Speaker 15: and obviously as a reporter I had to, but I
Speaker 15: mean I couldn't take my eyes off of it, even
Speaker 15: when I was not reporting on it.
Speaker 2: And then there was a reckoning because the regulators got involved.
Speaker 2: So we hadn't come back to Aaron Ryder in just
Speaker 2: a moment with the producer of dub Money. Delight to
Speaker 2: still have with us. Aaron Ryder, producer of Dub Money,
Speaker 2: on Zoom and Los Angeles, the movie opening up nationally
Speaker 2: on this Friday, Aaron, How easy was it to make
Speaker 2: this movie in terms of financially getting the funding?
Speaker 16: Well, you know, no movie is ever easy to make.
Speaker 16: It's a bit of a miracle when we actually pull
Speaker 16: it off. This one, it was a little bit complicated.
Speaker 16: We started out with it. I had to deal with
Speaker 16: the studio MGM, and we started to make the movie
Speaker 16: with them. But somewhere along the way about in pre production,
Speaker 16: MGM had sold themselves to Amazon, and that's when things
Speaker 16: got a bit more complicated. Let's say, just because you know,
Speaker 16: you have this brand new giant entity that takes over
Speaker 16: a movie studio and everything kind of slowed down. So
Speaker 16: we were not able to move forward under that that
Speaker 16: sort of deal that we had made, so we went
Speaker 16: out and found ourselves independent financiers, and we found an
Speaker 16: excellent partner with a company called black Bear and Teddy Schwartzman.
Speaker 17: It came on as our partner and we made the
Speaker 17: film together.
Speaker 16: So it started out as a studio movie, ended up independent,
Speaker 16: and then we found a home with a studio with Sony,
Speaker 16: So that's that's how it came together.
Speaker 2: I have to jump in because if Schwartzman sounds familiar
Speaker 2: to our audience, which it certainly does, Steve Schwartzman, of course,
Speaker 2: is his father, Steve Schwartzman. I've talked to him. He's
Speaker 2: the co founder or founder i should say, a Blackstone,
Speaker 2: the private equity giant. So it's kind of interesting to
Speaker 2: have that funding behind this film and a film that
Speaker 2: also kind of makes a little fun of right the
Speaker 2: hedge fund dudes, I mean they really, you know, kind
Speaker 2: of really were caught off guard during this whole you
Speaker 2: know process, if you will, of the meme stock craze.
Speaker 2: A lot of them were you know, shorting some of
Speaker 2: these names, and it really was uncomfortable for them. I'm
Speaker 2: curious about how you thought about their portrayal in the movie.
Speaker 17: Well, you know, look, these are real people.
Speaker 16: Obviously, we did a really good job at trying to
Speaker 16: tell the truth here, and our job is first and
Speaker 16: foremost to make a really compelling and entertaining movie, and
Speaker 16: just so happens that the subject matter made it very
Speaker 16: easy for us to be able to do that. So
Speaker 16: you know, we weren't out to try to overly vilify anybody.
Speaker 16: It was just to tell an honest story of what
Speaker 16: happened in this one particular.
Speaker 17: Moment in time.
Speaker 2: Well, exactly. Talk to us too about the actors. The
Speaker 2: lineup is pretty amazing, Paul, Pete, David, Yeah, talk to
Speaker 2: us about this cast.
Speaker 17: Sure, sure.
Speaker 16: I mean, look, it all started with Paul Dano, because
Speaker 16: you know, the face of this movement, as we said before,
Speaker 16: is Keith Gill and who's going to play that. He's
Speaker 16: iconic now, and so Paul is somebody that both Craig
Speaker 16: and I really had been trying to find something to
Speaker 16: do with. He's just an exceptional actor and he just
Speaker 16: embodies you feel to such a degree. He's got this
Speaker 16: great sense of humor and energy to him, and I
Speaker 16: think you'll see Paul in the way you've never seen
Speaker 16: him before, And as far as the rest of the
Speaker 16: cast goes, it's an embarrassment.
Speaker 17: Of riches, to be honest with you. We have such
Speaker 17: a great lineup.
Speaker 16: Mostly people that have been friends that myself or Craig
Speaker 16: have worked with in the past, you know, between Seth
Speaker 16: Rogan and Nick Offerman, Pete Davidson, Shalan Woodley, It's it's
Speaker 16: kind of a remarkable ensemble and one I'm really proud
Speaker 16: of in a testament to the fact I think everybody
Speaker 16: knew this story in one way or another wanted to
Speaker 16: get involved.
Speaker 2: I love that. Is it a little frustrating with the
Speaker 2: Hollywood Actors Strike that these this incredible lineup of actors
Speaker 2: can't be out there talking about the movie.
Speaker 17: A little frustrating, might be.
Speaker 16: An understatele Sorry, yeah, it's it is. It's it's unfortunate,
Speaker 16: But we feel like this moment is the moment for
Speaker 16: this movie. Given what's going on in the country, the
Speaker 16: division we have, the fact that we all live through this,
Speaker 16: it just feels like this is the right kind of
Speaker 16: movement and right kind of moment for a film like this,
Speaker 16: you know, And I think it's reflected in the strikes
Speaker 16: that you're seeing all throughout the country, not just in
Speaker 16: in my uh in my line of work with the
Speaker 16: actors and the writers going a.
Speaker 17: Strict but the you know, the auto workers and everyone else.
Speaker 16: There's a lot of disparity out there, and I feel
Speaker 16: like this movie does a good job of highlighting that.
Speaker 17: So we've felt like now's the time to show this
Speaker 17: to the world.
Speaker 16: And yes, it's disappointing not to have actors there because
Speaker 16: we went through the journey with them and it's always
Speaker 16: a lot of fun to go out and promote a movie.
Speaker 16: But it's still it seems to be generating a lot
Speaker 16: of interest. I like to think that, you know, what
Speaker 16: do we need the actors for?
Speaker 2: Right, Wow, out your phone's ringing, Aaron No, it's interesting. Well,
Speaker 2: the Times I thought said it really well too. They said,
Speaker 2: you know, you're a movie about a populist uprising, right,
Speaker 2: these you know, kind of small retail investors, These guys
Speaker 2: just kind of doing their thing on Reddit and elsewhere
Speaker 2: and really kind of bringing down the establishment in terms
Speaker 2: of the trading environment. And you think about these hedge
Speaker 2: fund titans like it's pretty remarkable. But you as you say,
Speaker 2: like we also are seeing workers really step out and
Speaker 2: speak up for their own rights. In terms of Hollywood,
Speaker 2: what is it that, you know, I think about our audience,
Speaker 2: a smart audience, so needs to understand about what's really
Speaker 2: happening there at those picket lines. In a world where
Speaker 2: we're talking a lot about, you know, the next level
Speaker 2: of artificial intelligence and what kind of jobs that takes
Speaker 2: out and what it means for the creative world.
Speaker 17: I think it's you know, we look, we.
Speaker 16: Reached the moment, an inflection point, if you will, and
Speaker 16: most industries go through it.
Speaker 17: The entertainment industry certainly has its moments as well.
Speaker 16: It happened back in the early sixties when the reactors
Speaker 16: went on strikes about residuals and that sort of thing,
Speaker 16: as television became more and more prominent, And we're in
Speaker 16: that moment right now, and it's in a large part
Speaker 16: it was probably going to happen a couple of years ago,
Speaker 16: but the pandemic disruptive things, and so this was a
Speaker 16: moment that was bound to happen with this, you know,
Speaker 16: the proliferation of stream and that sort of thing changing
Speaker 16: our business dramatically, which it has, and so with that
Speaker 16: sort of change comes to recalibration of how people are
Speaker 16: paytent and what fair wages mean. And so, you know,
Speaker 16: not just in this industry, but I think in multiple
Speaker 16: industries across this country. So we're in that moment right
Speaker 16: now and we're all feeling and I hope it things
Speaker 16: settle sooner than later and we find that common ground
Speaker 16: of fairness so everybody can get back to work.
Speaker 2: You just have about a minute and a half left here.
Speaker 2: Is there for a favorite moment of yours in terms
Speaker 2: of making the movie or you know, the process. I
Speaker 2: know it's hard for you to be like, yeah, it's
Speaker 2: my favorites, my baby or my latest baby, but is
Speaker 2: there you know, take us a little bit behind the scenes.
Speaker 16: It's two things, you know, Like it's hard, as we said,
Speaker 16: it's hard making the film and pulling all these elements
Speaker 16: together and takes a lot of energy and certainly a
Speaker 16: lot of money. And you have to hope that the
Speaker 16: movie gods smile upon you. But for me, it's always
Speaker 16: two moments in any given films. It's the moment when
Speaker 16: you pull the whole thing together on the first day
Speaker 16: of photography, and I think about it all the way
Speaker 16: to the first moment made up until now, and when
Speaker 16: you're standing behind the director and you got the whole
Speaker 16: everybody ready to go, and the director kind of says
Speaker 16: action to me, It's like, I feel like a moment
Speaker 16: of triumph in that moment, thinking Okay, well this is
Speaker 16: happening now and this story will be indelible. Those kinds
Speaker 16: of moments are never lost to me. The second part
Speaker 16: is when you show your film the first time in
Speaker 16: front of a large audience, like we had the opportunity
Speaker 16: to do in Toronto, and have an audience received the
Speaker 16: film the way it did, with a standing ovation the
Speaker 16: way we had, and just see how people really enjoyed
Speaker 16: the film, there's nothing more rewarding.
Speaker 2: Well, we're looking forward to see it. I have to
Speaker 2: say I haven't seen it yet, but I will. I
Speaker 2: certainly lived it reporting on it. So fascinating to see
Speaker 2: the interpretation that you guys did, because it really was
Speaker 2: a remarkable moment in time for anybody who's been watching
Speaker 2: Financial Mark it's another remarkable moment in time and good
Speaker 2: to see you guys put it to the big screen. Aaron,
Speaker 2: good luck with it. Aaron Ryder, producer of dub Money
Speaker 2: as we said, opening nationally on the big screen, so
Speaker 2: check it out. He's joining us, of course on zoom
Speaker 2: In Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us
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Speaker 3: Make them lad, make him loud, don't you know?
Speaker 12: Everyone wants to lave?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Zoe, everybody. Let's make him laugh and laugh a
Speaker 2: bit more. I mean, I gotta say, it's not always easy,
Speaker 2: considering the news flow and the stresses that are out
Speaker 2: there right. Economic, personal are otherwise kind of love that
Speaker 2: from singing in the rain.
Speaker 3: You know what though, that's o'nor, But it's actually good
Speaker 3: to laugh.
Speaker 9: I know.
Speaker 2: Okay, So where is good for us? We are nerds,
Speaker 2: but speak for you usself. The Mayo Clinic points out
Speaker 2: that when it comes to relieving stress, more giggles and
Speaker 2: gufaws are just what the doctor ordered, noting that a
Speaker 2: good laugh has great short term effects. When you start
Speaker 2: to laugh, it doesn't just lighten your load mentally, it
Speaker 2: actually induces physical changes in your body, including stimulating your organs,
Speaker 2: soothing tension, improving your immune system. So everybody in the
Speaker 2: control room, you better be laughing no more.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I better go to the Comedy Festival. The seventeenth
Speaker 3: annual New York Comedy Festival, Yes, about.
Speaker 2: To get underway in early November. A legend in the
Speaker 2: world of comedy is with us today in our studio,
Speaker 2: Caroline Hirsch, founder of Caroline's on Broadway. Of course you
Speaker 2: know that she's here in our Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. Welcome, Welcome,
Speaker 2: welcome back. How are you good.
Speaker 4: I'm good, So we have quite the medicine for you.
Speaker 2: The New Comedy Festival.
Speaker 3: My voice doesn't usually sound like this.
Speaker 4: Festival number third, the twelfth we've extended this year. We're
Speaker 4: ten days straight, probably about one hundred and fifty shows,
Speaker 4: still counting. We're still adding, we're still putting people together,
Speaker 4: so still announcing new shows coming up, twenty two theater shows.
Speaker 4: So we're very very happy.
Speaker 2: Carolyn. I just had family in from Texas, and you
Speaker 2: know what they did. They did a bunch of things
Speaker 2: around New York. It was a short weekend they went
Speaker 2: to a comedy show. People want to experience things. How
Speaker 2: did you guys think about that? Are you seeing increased
Speaker 2: demand or a lot of demand coming out of the
Speaker 2: pandemic of people just wanting to go to things like
Speaker 2: comedy shows.
Speaker 4: Well, I think the general people want to go to
Speaker 4: live events, and I think live events are like the
Speaker 4: big thing right now. So look, when we put tickets
Speaker 4: on sale, we got a really really robust kind of
Speaker 4: reaction to it. So ticket sales are really really good.
Speaker 4: That's good, it's good.
Speaker 6: It's good for New York.
Speaker 4: Okay, at Madison Square Garden, Shane Gillis at Carnegie Hall,
Speaker 4: Mateo Lange and me Carr Anthony just all at Carnegie Hall.
Speaker 4: And you know what happens that, you know, people go
Speaker 4: to Carnegie Hall and then they'll go to the restaurant
Speaker 4: across the street. Right, So what we do is bring
Speaker 4: this stimulus to New York City, which we're always happy
Speaker 4: to do, and we have a lot of fun with
Speaker 4: doing it. And then we have you know, we we
Speaker 4: have britt Goldstein. Do you know him from Ted Lasso?
Speaker 4: So he's doing a lot of him at the beach. Wait,
Speaker 4: can we all say what he says, Oh, no, we
Speaker 4: can't say that.
Speaker 3: On air, can't we you can you can't. You can't
Speaker 3: be your last show.
Speaker 2: We do say it a lot of the news, but
Speaker 2: go ahead. He's so great.
Speaker 12: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And then we have you know, we we have a
Speaker 4: big event which is Stand Up for Heroes, which kind
Speaker 4: of opens up the festival this year on November sixth.
Speaker 4: So we have Jimmy Carr there, Tracy Morgan, Rita Wilson
Speaker 4: will be singing, Shane Gillis, Ronnie Chang, John Stewart who's
Speaker 4: a constant there, and also Josh Grobin and John Mellencamp.
Speaker 4: So that is quite as shore.
Speaker 3: Are they doing comedy?
Speaker 6: Are singing?
Speaker 16: Yeah?
Speaker 3: This thing okay, that's okod.
Speaker 2: How do you think about when you put it together?
Speaker 2: Seventeen years and running? Talk to us about like how
Speaker 2: it's evolved.
Speaker 4: Oh, it's nineteen years forgive me years and seventeen years
Speaker 4: for the Stand Up for Heroes. But it's nineteen years,
Speaker 4: sixt year. We're having a big, big blowout the twentieth
Speaker 4: year in New York City.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 4: You know we start the day after we finish here,
Speaker 4: we start for next year. Actually, we're trying to secure
Speaker 4: venues ready for next year, you know, our big shows
Speaker 4: at Madison Square Garden. So we do that constantly.
Speaker 3: You know, it's we don't often because we have a
Speaker 3: global audience here on the program.
Speaker 6: We really, yeah, we do.
Speaker 2: I had no idea that's some comedy for you.
Speaker 3: Kidding looking into the control room and see if you
Speaker 3: can sit. They're not laughing in there. I know, I
Speaker 3: know to my day job, but we do, and we
Speaker 3: you know, we have a national audience as well. So
Speaker 3: why are we talking about something here in New York. Well,
Speaker 3: because a lot of people from all over the world
Speaker 3: and all over the country come to this. Talk a
Speaker 3: little bit about who this attracts and sort of where
Speaker 3: New York is right now in the comedy scene, because
Speaker 3: you know, there are people who are saying, you know, okay,
Speaker 3: La is you know a classic place for comedy. You've
Speaker 3: got Joe Rogan and Austin doing his thing, you know,
Speaker 3: trying to make Austin comedy happen. Where do you stand
Speaker 3: on all this?
Speaker 4: You know you can never negate New York. Yeah you can't.
Speaker 2: You can't take the New Yorker New Yorker.
Speaker 4: No, it's here, it's here, It's here. It's where it starts.
Speaker 4: This is where you get the creative juices. This is
Speaker 4: where you get the ideas they you know, the whole
Speaker 4: thing with La was that, you know, which is not
Speaker 4: so quite in fashion right now, is to go out
Speaker 4: there to get your sitcom. That's that's not really happening
Speaker 4: anymore now.
Speaker 3: It's nice happening the last five months without the writers strike.
Speaker 2: I can tell you that I guess they're a bad
Speaker 2: That's a really good point because you did see a
Speaker 2: lot of comics for a long time, right get a
Speaker 2: series and then just move to television. It's kind of not.
Speaker 4: Happening now at the touring that goes on. When you
Speaker 4: have a great special that's on TV, you take that
Speaker 4: and you go on the road, and that's your millions
Speaker 4: of dollars that these people, you know, comedians are making
Speaker 4: on the road. When you're selling out Beacon Theaters, Carnegie Hall,
Speaker 4: when you're selling out the Garden. This is this is
Speaker 4: like this is big bucks, you know. So it's it's
Speaker 4: it's a big, big business for a lot of people
Speaker 4: that have really you know, made it and are able
Speaker 4: to tour around the country.
Speaker 2: Can we talk about the business of comedy and I
Speaker 2: think about you know, last December, your iconic club, right,
Speaker 2: you did not renew your lease it's spot in Times Square.
Speaker 2: How hard was that?
Speaker 12: You know?
Speaker 4: I wanted to stay, and then there was a part
Speaker 4: of me which did not want to stay because of
Speaker 4: the way. And I don't want to put down Time
Speaker 4: Square because I went there thirty years ago to build
Speaker 4: it up and I was part of that, the renovation
Speaker 4: of Times here and the renewal of Times Square. So
Speaker 4: I'm not going to put it down. But things were
Speaker 4: changing there. The city was changing there. I felt that
Speaker 4: after COVID, the whole seascape there was changing. And I said,
Speaker 4: let me step back. I own the brand. I want
Speaker 4: to take the brand. I'm extending it through the festival
Speaker 4: and then we have other ideas where we're going with that.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, give us some of those other ideas.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, you know, we're taking the Carolines brand and
Speaker 4: you know, kind of producing content and putting it out
Speaker 4: there and specials and everything else that we do with
Speaker 4: comedy on a grander scale.
Speaker 3: I mean, it really was the end of an era
Speaker 3: for you not to renew your leaves there.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I was lived thirty years in Time Square.
Speaker 3: So I mean Tom Square changed a lot in thirty years,
Speaker 3: and it changed a lot just in a few years
Speaker 3: because of the pandemic. Talk to us a little bit
Speaker 3: about the you know, what happened, and the decision making process,
Speaker 3: and the external factor is there too, Okay?
Speaker 4: So obviously I went to my landlord and I go, listen,
Speaker 4: we need some relief here. You know, things have changed
Speaker 4: a lot, so can you He goes, no, Actually, we
Speaker 4: really want to raise the rent. So I said, oh,
Speaker 4: but you know, there's so many repairs that have to
Speaker 4: be done. I'm here for thirty years, you know, air conditioning,
Speaker 4: electrical work, just things needed to be upgraded. And he said, well,
Speaker 4: that's just what the deal is. And I tried very
Speaker 4: hard to stay there, and then I just said, well,
Speaker 4: I'm out of here now at this moment.
Speaker 12: Done.
Speaker 3: Did you have other things to do you? Did you
Speaker 3: look for other play other physical space.
Speaker 4: No, but I have to tell you that we had
Speaker 4: so much press when we closed that so many real
Speaker 4: estate developers called me. He said, I have spaces for
Speaker 4: you and I will help you build it out.
Speaker 2: So why didn't you do it?
Speaker 4: Well, we're in the I'm in the process of taking
Speaker 4: it all in and deciding what the next big move in.
Speaker 4: It's not it'll be four wolves, but it'd be something
Speaker 4: very different.
Speaker 2: What a great feel?
Speaker 3: That is pretty cool?
Speaker 15: Right? Great?
Speaker 2: So this is like it to be continued. You'll come
Speaker 2: back in like two months, three months, four weeks. Can
Speaker 2: ask me what do you find funny today? Are you oh,
Speaker 2: oh my god, we need laughter? What do you find
Speaker 2: funny today?
Speaker 17: You know what it is?
Speaker 4: You know what I find funny is that it's almost
Speaker 4: the point when a joke is it reaches the point
Speaker 4: where it it is such a great joke that it
Speaker 4: hits the point that it's almost politically not correct. And
Speaker 4: those kind of shows, those kind of jokes are brilliant
Speaker 4: to get to that line, make your point, but not
Speaker 4: go there.
Speaker 2: Remember where we could say it's a joke people.
Speaker 3: So you can still say that, No you can't.
Speaker 2: It's no tough.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't matter. If you know Netflix staff walk
Speaker 3: out over, you know your your special, You're still selling
Speaker 3: out arenas across the country. I'm talking about Dave Chappelle here,
Speaker 3: that's truth.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Is it tough for comics today?
Speaker 12: Though?
Speaker 4: I don't think so. I just think I just think
Speaker 4: that they need to stay on a steady, straight path.
Speaker 4: And I think that they do realize that that things
Speaker 4: could be offensive. And I think that, Look, I've seen
Speaker 4: a lot of male comics change a lot of stuff.
Speaker 4: What they used to say, they wouldn't dare say that.
Speaker 4: I mean, they get strangled by every woman in the audience.
Speaker 4: But things have changed like that, and I think people are,
Speaker 4: you know, mindful of other people like that. Like we
Speaker 4: were just talking before I walked in here. I was
Speaker 4: talking about Don Rickles today. We said, oh my god,
Speaker 4: he couldn't insult people like that today.
Speaker 3: That's a good point.
Speaker 12: It was a joke.
Speaker 2: Don Rickles, D mart and all those guys like.
Speaker 3: You think self censorship is real.
Speaker 4: I think I think it is. I think it is,
Speaker 4: but to a good self censorship, not anything like I
Speaker 4: think it's good. But it's that brilliant joke that may
Speaker 4: cross the line but doesn't. And those are the greatest,
Speaker 4: the still get away with stuff, who can really push
Speaker 4: it are there? Certainly well gave Dave Schelle can ali
Speaker 4: Wan Can. That's a woman that can hit that mark
Speaker 4: of not crossing the line but through us on the line.
Speaker 3: My turn where you're going, Okay, go. I want to
Speaker 3: know your opinion, Caroline, about the role of comedy clubs today.
Speaker 3: Given that there's YouTube, there's TikTok, there are all these
Speaker 3: places where comedians, up and coming comedians can post their
Speaker 3: content and build a following there.
Speaker 4: That's a good thing. That's a good thing for clubs
Speaker 4: because when they build the following, then they get booked
Speaker 4: into the club and they make really nice money and
Speaker 4: everybody's happy because they sell out. So it's also still
Speaker 4: that live experience. People still want it. They want to
Speaker 4: go in that room with you and me and all
Speaker 4: laugh together. That's what they want. That's the thing about
Speaker 4: what makes a joke, It's that the community is sitting
Speaker 4: there saying, oh God, that happened to me too, and
Speaker 4: you laugh. So it's all part of that live experience.
Speaker 4: And I'm seeing that with the festival as everything is.
Speaker 4: You know, these everybody in the festival has a terrific
Speaker 4: online following. I mean they millions of people huge, but
Speaker 4: they want to go out and see them. The same
Speaker 4: thing that happened when years ago, when you had that
Speaker 4: great HBO special that built you up so that when
Speaker 4: you toured around you would sell out, right, So that's
Speaker 4: all money in the bank for the performers.
Speaker 2: The nineteenth annually, that how many festival this November. I'm
Speaker 2: giving you a shameless plug. Hey, listen, take us back,
Speaker 2: because you've been doing this a long time. Back in
Speaker 2: the early eighties you began, I mean, Jay Leno, Jerry Seinfeld,
Speaker 2: Pee Herman, Billy Crystal, Robin Williams, Sandra Bernard, I know,
Speaker 2: Chris Raight, I know it breaks our heart right like
Speaker 2: these are people that were funny like no other and
Speaker 2: changed I think the way we see comedy, enjoy comedy.
Speaker 2: But in the early day, is everyone funny out of
Speaker 2: the gate?
Speaker 4: Well you see, you know we were just talking about
Speaker 4: Bill Maher So you know, Bill started at my little
Speaker 4: club on eighth Avenue. But of course you grow over
Speaker 4: the years, Jerry Seinfeld, you grow over the years. Jay Leno,
Speaker 4: grow over the years. But Jay has always been this
Speaker 4: menshi guy.
Speaker 3: What ja tours like four days a week now, probably every.
Speaker 4: Weekend he's doing something, you know, And so Jerry Zeipfel,
Speaker 4: you missed. Every weekend he's probably somewhere doing two or
Speaker 4: three shows back home again during the week and that's
Speaker 4: really his life because he loves what he's doing.
Speaker 2: What do you remember from these guys in the early days,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 4: We were all so new to it. It was like,
Speaker 4: you know, when I opened Carolines, it was like the
Speaker 4: first headliner club in New York City. It was like
Speaker 4: a yuppie that word yuppie. We're going back to the
Speaker 4: eighties yuppie nightclub that opened up. And it was the day.
Speaker 4: It was when David Letterman was at twelve thirty at night.
Speaker 4: Jay Leno would be at my club and he'd say like, oh,
Speaker 4: I'm appearing at Alliance. It gave us this national play
Speaker 4: around the country, and that kind of set up the club.
Speaker 4: And I remember, you know, Paul Rubens pee wee harmon
Speaker 4: bringing him to New York. I have such fond memories
Speaker 4: of him. And you know, I didn't up until he
Speaker 4: was texting me on my birthday, sending me birthday videos
Speaker 4: up until the end saying listen, we need to FaceTime soon.
Speaker 4: Are you coming to LA I'm not coming to New York.
Speaker 4: Didn't tell me he wasn't feeling well, because I would.
Speaker 4: We would always, like you know, text each other back
Speaker 4: and forth, and I had no idea he was sick,
Speaker 4: but he brought a show to New York. In New York,
Speaker 4: they conceived Pee Wee's Big Adventure. He was going to
Speaker 4: ride his bike from LA to New York City with
Speaker 4: this unknown director at that time, Tim Burton Khunew. But
Speaker 4: you know that's that's what Paul had. He had that
Speaker 4: creative part of him. Those comedians that I worked with
Speaker 4: from the beginning all went on. Look at Jerry and
Speaker 4: Larry David show seinfeldt, oh, my god, earth shattering. You
Speaker 4: know we still say we were just talking about it
Speaker 4: last night. I still turn it on and see an
Speaker 4: episode I haven't seen.
Speaker 2: Right, well, I always make references to Stein felt like
Speaker 2: I've seen them all.
Speaker 3: I gotta tell you, Okay, so we only have a
Speaker 3: minute left, Caroline. But comedians who have made it love
Speaker 3: to say that in order for comedian to make it,
Speaker 3: you've got a bomb. Give us some stories of some
Speaker 3: prominent bombs that you've witnessed in your bag.
Speaker 4: How about Larry David And he would say, oh, to
Speaker 4: the audience, they're just terrible.
Speaker 2: And he didn't do that well or twice.
Speaker 3: He did that all over see that I can see
Speaker 3: the curve.
Speaker 4: They're terrible, They're terrible.
Speaker 2: They bomb, I gotta say, and what you've done for
Speaker 2: women comedians right when they were just so far in
Speaker 2: few and just to see everyone out there today, it's incredible.
Speaker 2: You are incredible. Come back anytime. Let us know the news.
Speaker 2: If you land somewhere, okay, you can share it with us,
Speaker 2: and good luck again. Remind us when the festival.
Speaker 4: Is November third to the twelfth. Go to New York
Speaker 4: Comedy Festival dot com and you would be amazed to
Speaker 4: see how many shows are listed there to go see
Speaker 4: and have a great time.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, good luck, be wellome Caroline Hursh,
Speaker 2: founder of Carolines of course on Broadway. Here in our
Speaker 2: Bloomberg Interactive Broker Studio, Carol Masser, Tim Stanevek. We're not funny,
Speaker 2: but she is anterlineup. This is Bloomberg.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us
Speaker 1: live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern on Bloomberg Radio,
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Business App, and YouTube. You can also listen
Speaker 1: live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station,
Speaker 1: Just say Alexa, play Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Speaker 12: Time.
Speaker 2: Now for a bit of luxury with our friends from
Speaker 2: Bloomberg Pursuits and this week's issue of Bloomberg Business Week
Speaker 2: magazine includes the return of the Business Travel special, highlighted
Speaker 2: by the debut of a series called two Night Minimum.
Speaker 3: It's your personal travel guide to some of the world's
Speaker 3: most iconic destinations, design for those who want to get
Speaker 3: to know the heart of a place in a pretty
Speaker 3: short time, whether they're in town for business or they're
Speaker 3: just passing through or making a weekend more of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, we have the dynamic do Bloomberg Pursuits editor
Speaker 2: Chris Rouser and Bloomberg News travels are Nikki Eckstein. Our
Speaker 2: first installment to Night Minimum comes courtesy of one of
Speaker 2: our favorite reporters, Brandon Presser, who whisks us to the
Speaker 2: Spanish capital of Madrid. But we also do want to
Speaker 2: point out that this sectual Pursuits coincides with the launch
Speaker 2: of Bloomberg Travel. It's a department, Nikki, that you have
Speaker 2: been overseeing and you're bringing together Pursuits content with coverage
Speaker 2: from all our different teams around Bloomberg. Can you just
Speaker 2: tell us a little bit about that?
Speaker 8: Yeah? So, do you want to hear our official tagline,
Speaker 8: I love our highle tagline the new hub for globe
Speaker 8: trotting leaders, covering everything from the business of travel to
Speaker 8: the most worthwhile experiences that money can buy. So you've
Speaker 8: known and loved the most worthwhile experiences that money can buy.
Speaker 8: That's always been the pursuits travel, Emma. We love to
Speaker 8: tell you how to spend your money well all around
Speaker 8: the world. But now I think really, ever since the pandemic,
Speaker 8: we've really attuned our geeze to how important travel is
Speaker 8: as a pillar of the global economy, and we're really
Speaker 8: broadening our scope to think about that and how it
Speaker 8: affects government people. Economy is job INFLA and you know,
Speaker 8: all of these topics have a really really clear relation
Speaker 8: point to travel in the travel economy, and so our
Speaker 8: coverage is inclusive of all of those things. Now it
Speaker 8: has been for a while, and now it's more organized,
Speaker 8: you can find it more easily Bloomberg dot com. Blush
Speaker 8: Travel is a really exciting effort. I'm so proud to
Speaker 8: be leading it.
Speaker 2: Well, it's really cool. And then do you think about Chris,
Speaker 2: how much time you know Tim and I on a
Speaker 2: daily basis talk about the travel industry and the importance
Speaker 2: of it to the global economy.
Speaker 18: Yes, yeah, I mean it's one of the biggest industries
Speaker 18: in the world, and Nikki is taking charge in making
Speaker 18: Bloomberg like really cover it the way we cover all
Speaker 18: these other industries, and also giving smarter tools for travel,
Speaker 18: like you know, we're just the way you think about travel,
Speaker 18: how you can be a better like steward of the
Speaker 18: world as you travel, but also how you can save money.
Speaker 3: Well, Nikki, let's start by heading to Madrid, because as
Speaker 3: you and Brandon Wright in the piece, it's kind of
Speaker 3: not known as a place of you know, a destination
Speaker 3: in the same way that Barcelona in the past has been.
Speaker 8: I mean, you're absolutely right. Barcelona has always been the
Speaker 8: kind of capital of cool and culture and all things
Speaker 8: hip and fabulous in Spain, and Madrid has really been
Speaker 8: the seat of government and banking, and I think it's
Speaker 8: been seen as more staid by comparison. But I've noticed
Speaker 8: and I think Chris you've definitely noticed this too. We've
Speaker 8: talked about it. In the last year or two, everyone
Speaker 8: is going to Madrid. Madrid is suddenly the coolest place,
Speaker 8: maybe like all of Europe. It's really had this incredible
Speaker 8: resurgence and as we've learned some of it. A lot
Speaker 8: of it has to do because people from broader Latin
Speaker 8: America have made it their new home. Amid the pandemic,
Speaker 8: a lot of people move to Madrid. It brought in
Speaker 8: an influx of foreign investment, a lot of tech startups
Speaker 8: moved to Madrid, and it's just juiced the energy in
Speaker 8: that capital made it a far more vibrant, cosmopolitan place.
Speaker 1: All right.
Speaker 2: So if we've got a couple of days, like, how
Speaker 2: do we think about approaching it?
Speaker 8: So our guide really allows you to pick and choose
Speaker 8: your own adventure, depending on what your priorities are and
Speaker 8: how you want to spend your time.
Speaker 7: One of my.
Speaker 8: Favorite things about it is the section of activities, the
Speaker 8: kind of classic C and do section of a travel guide.
Speaker 8: We've switched it up in a way that's just way
Speaker 8: more efficient and plugged in. So everybody goes to ls Throw,
Speaker 8: the sprawling flea market near the Pusai Ord, and people
Speaker 8: usually go on the weekends and it's like a rat
Speaker 8: race of anteeking. But our version of this is, don't
Speaker 8: do that. Go on a weekday. There are two beautiful
Speaker 8: shopping arcades, Galla Das Picered and Noel Gallerias intersto two streets,
Speaker 8: basically that you can prioritize. You've given me the exact
Speaker 8: shop to go to, and we've told you the best
Speaker 8: things in those shops to buy, in this case, beautiful ceramics,
Speaker 8: little hand towels, things that will actually fit in your suitcase.
Speaker 18: One of my favorite things in city guides is when
Speaker 18: you when someone tells you what neighborhood to walk around,
Speaker 18: because that's kind of what I want to do when
Speaker 18: I'm in a city. Especially they don't have a lot
Speaker 18: of time, and so we tell people to, you know,
Speaker 18: walk around on Barrio de la Laetras or Chambourrie. And
Speaker 18: also like the Prado. You can't go to Madrid without
Speaker 18: going to the Prado. We tell you the shortcuts and
Speaker 18: like what to do, what the if you have limited time?
Speaker 18: Which I love because you go in there and it's
Speaker 18: like the biggest museum ever and you it's like how
Speaker 18: do I even do it? And then we've got restaurants
Speaker 18: and hotels, so we've really got everything. And then like
Speaker 18: day trips too, so we've really got everything you need
Speaker 18: to know for a weekend.
Speaker 3: Nikki, let's talk about some of those restaurants because the
Speaker 3: food there is.
Speaker 8: Not to be missed, and it's probably not what you
Speaker 8: expect either. Like, of course, there's all of the top
Speaker 8: us crawling, and one of the things that I love
Speaker 8: is that we're not just giving you like a single
Speaker 8: place to go get top us. We're giving you an
Speaker 8: entire kind of neighborhood. We outline a whole tap us
Speaker 8: crawl in Malasanna, for instance, with numerous stops and telling
Speaker 8: you exactly how to do it most efficiently. But then
Speaker 8: there's also places like Salm and Guru, which literally looks
Speaker 8: like the inside of a manga comic book and it's
Speaker 8: just amazing, super hypermodern and the futuristic cocktail bar with
Speaker 8: an Asian inspired menu. Go there at risk of missing
Speaker 8: your dinner reservation because it's just so much fun to
Speaker 8: be there. And then there's place says like Lennia. For instance,
Speaker 8: there's this one chef in Madrid that owns all of
Speaker 8: the best restaurants in the city. We've picked out the
Speaker 8: best one in his empire. It's Lenia. It's the steakhouse
Speaker 8: and everything is done very dramatically with table side flare
Speaker 8: and fois gras is disguised to look like a little
Speaker 8: Granny's my apple. The steaks are smoked. It seems just
Speaker 8: like the best place ever. So we've kind of curated
Speaker 8: it that way. Pick the best restaurant from the chef
Speaker 8: that has all the restaurants, pick the one street to
Speaker 8: go for top us.
Speaker 2: It's like a great guide right when you just don't
Speaker 2: have a lot of time and you can really just
Speaker 2: figure out the things to do. I love it, love it,
Speaker 2: love it. The other thing I don't, actually, on the
Speaker 2: flip side, don't love is all the fees I play
Speaker 2: pay when I'm traveling. You guys, Chris get into that
Speaker 2: as well, So talk to us about what you covered.
Speaker 18: We have this writer Ramsey who is a genius on
Speaker 18: points and miles and fine finding discounts and how to
Speaker 18: sort of efficiently.
Speaker 2: You guys calling him.
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, we had some long.
Speaker 18: Talks after Delta changed their sky miles rules, you know,
Speaker 18: so he went through and like went through to find
Speaker 18: these hidden fees because there's actually like legislation coming through.
Speaker 18: Biden has made as a priority to make increasing transparency
Speaker 18: on fees like hotel fees. You show up, you thought
Speaker 18: you were paying one thing, and then there's like all
Speaker 18: these fees that are more this is like.
Speaker 3: A resort fee.
Speaker 6: Yeah, like airline fees.
Speaker 2: So many times you go to a work conference, right,
Speaker 2: and there's like the resort fee that we're never going
Speaker 2: to like.
Speaker 6: I know, it makes you seem like you're at the spot.
Speaker 12: I don't.
Speaker 3: I was concerned about it when I travel for work.
Speaker 8: Okay, So you know what, I have worked at companies
Speaker 8: where you have a very sick perdem and those types
Speaker 8: of things can be really, really sticky, even for business
Speaker 8: paper wars, I will say.
Speaker 18: So Ramsey goes through and talks about airline fees, how
Speaker 18: to avoid them, fees for checking bags, things like that,
Speaker 18: resort fees, currency conversion fees. What's actually I travel a
Speaker 18: lot and I actually never know what to do when
Speaker 18: it says, okay, you're in a foreign country, do you
Speaker 18: want to pay in dollars or do you want to
Speaker 18: do euros?
Speaker 3: You pay in euros exactly. And I didn't know that
Speaker 3: until reading this, because you pay see.
Speaker 2: Right for that version.
Speaker 6: I know what's wrong with them.
Speaker 3: So there he's like, I can't talk to you, nikky.
Speaker 3: It's all like Chris Chris, or I'd go anywhere out
Speaker 3: of the US like, let's be honest.
Speaker 8: You know, we do this funny thing sometimes in our
Speaker 8: department where we have to ask people who sit around us,
Speaker 8: did you know this?
Speaker 2: Is this?
Speaker 8: News? Is this new to you? And dynamic currency these
Speaker 8: is one of the things that I always knew, but
Speaker 8: I took for granted how little known this is and
Speaker 8: I didn't realize exactly why it happens. And so what
Speaker 8: happens is when you pay in dollars, you're automatically being
Speaker 8: charged a convergency that's built into that price, and it's
Speaker 8: usually between two and three percent. And if you pay
Speaker 8: two and three percent extra on all of your expenses
Speaker 8: across your travels, that adds up meaningfully.
Speaker 4: All right.
Speaker 2: There's a lot more advice too, when it comes to
Speaker 2: the value add attacks, which I know about doing, and what.
Speaker 3: About the digital one?
Speaker 6: Through about that kiss?
Speaker 3: Didn't know that one?
Speaker 2: Really great advice. There's also some great coverage on weekender bags.
Speaker 2: Weekender bags, Did I say that correctly?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 8: We can.
Speaker 2: Weekender bags some really nice posh ones, to be quite honest.
Speaker 2: And then there's also like those great little cues. My
Speaker 2: daughter's really into that, like when packing, like you put
Speaker 2: them into cubes.
Speaker 18: Packing cubes are a thing that I know that I
Speaker 18: should use, and I don't like. It's like a healthcare FSA,
Speaker 18: Like I know it's.
Speaker 3: A thing that we're supposed to use.
Speaker 6: It can help you with Nikitch, but I just after
Speaker 6: we did this story, I just bought some for my husband. Okay.
Speaker 8: I love that you really I would packing cube your
Speaker 8: belief system. I feel like, can you either live and
Speaker 8: die by your packing cube or it just doesn't work
Speaker 8: for you at all. Not a taking tube person, but
Speaker 8: I know so many people who literally cannot go on
Speaker 8: a trip without putting everything into cube.
Speaker 2: I think it's a good idea. I just haven't done
Speaker 2: it yet. All right, guys, listen, great coverage, great kickoff,
Speaker 2: and so good to be talking with you all again.
Speaker 2: Our thanks to Bloomberg Pursuits editor Chris Rouser and Bloomberg
Speaker 2: News Travels are Nikki Eckstein.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us
Speaker 1: live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen on
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App,
Speaker 1: or watch us live on YouTube.
Speaker 2: The author of the Piece of Into Albright Wealth Team
Speaker 2: reporter for Blouem News. She is on zoom from Kansas,
Speaker 2: and then here in our studio the editor of Bluemberg BusinessWeek,
Speaker 2: Jill Weber. Jill, this feels like a perfect Business Week strue.
Speaker 2: But tell us about how it came.
Speaker 10: To you all, Amanda. So, we have had a number
Speaker 10: of bank failures this year. Obviously, that was the theme
Speaker 10: that we were all over as an institution at Bloomberg
Speaker 10: earlier in the year, and a lot of those were
Speaker 10: the middle size American banks. What stood out about this
Speaker 10: one was Amanda's reporting because it wasn't for the usual
Speaker 10: reasons that we saw with.
Speaker 3: Silicon Flight Bank, or wasn't a bank run.
Speaker 10: It wasn't a bank run, you know, it wasn't any
Speaker 10: of that. It was because the CEO maybe did some
Speaker 10: unwise decisions with crypto, right, Amanda.
Speaker 15: Yes, that's exactly right. And that's one thing that even
Speaker 15: from the jump, people in Kansas stress that this wasn't
Speaker 15: some bigger issue with Kansas banking or something specific to
Speaker 15: the state. Was a very idiosynocratic and specific situation, and
Speaker 15: my reporting definitely supports that as well. So it was
Speaker 15: different from earlier this year, but also a very interesting
Speaker 15: case on its own, all.
Speaker 2: Right, So let's get into the details. Amanda tell us
Speaker 2: about Shan Hayes.
Speaker 15: So he is the CEO of this bank, Heartland tri
Speaker 15: State Bank. He's the longtime CEO. He's worked there and
Speaker 15: different iterations of the bank. Basically, he got his career there.
Speaker 15: He started as an agricultural loan and IT officer at
Speaker 15: a bank under a previous name, and so he is
Speaker 15: really just a kind of towering figure in this very
Speaker 15: very small city in Kansas. I went to the city.
Speaker 15: It's a very far drive, but once you get there,
Speaker 15: everyone kind of knows each other, and so they all
Speaker 15: knew about Shane, and they all knew about the bank.
Speaker 15: They were all still talking about it and all eager
Speaker 15: to talk to a reporter about it, even if they
Speaker 15: didn't want their name used. Everyone was kind of a
Speaker 15: buzz in the town about this, and you know, everyone
Speaker 15: had kind of different Sorry to jump the gun a
Speaker 15: little bit, but everyone had a little bit of different
Speaker 15: reactions about it, which we can definitely talk about. But essentially,
Speaker 15: Shane was this big figure within the community. But he
Speaker 15: was also a pretty important figure within Kansas banking across
Speaker 15: the state bankers in Kansas and surrounding states all know
Speaker 15: who he is because he has this role on the
Speaker 15: Kansas Bankers Association, or he previously had a role in
Speaker 15: the Kansas Bankers Association. He was the chairman, and he
Speaker 15: also worked with the American Bankers Association in different capacities
Speaker 15: for them, and as part of that he would go
Speaker 15: to Capitol Hill. You know, we point out at this story.
Speaker 2: Then blowdown because we want to know what happened.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, how did this guy with so much
Speaker 3: experience find find himself asking one of his customers for
Speaker 3: twelve million dollars in cash?
Speaker 2: How does that happen?
Speaker 15: Yes, I jumped the gun, was excited to talk about
Speaker 15: the story. So it's atory basically one of my basically
Speaker 15: in reporting it, I got a tip that essentially this
Speaker 15: meeting had taken place where the CEO had asked one
Speaker 15: of his wealthiest clients for twelve million dollars. During that meeting,
Speaker 15: Based on my reporting, it's basically he asked if he
Speaker 15: could have twelve million dollars and indicated that it was
Speaker 15: his personal money that was locked up in this crypto
Speaker 15: app and you know, in order to get it out,
Speaker 15: he needed to put more money in and that's kind
Speaker 15: of even though we don't know exactly the specifics of
Speaker 15: how this all came to be with the crypto app
Speaker 15: and how he ended up putting it in and who
Speaker 15: directed him to do that, et cetera, And it might
Speaker 15: take a while to figure that out. But if anyone
Speaker 15: needs my phone number, let me know.
Speaker 2: But it's a good reporter, man.
Speaker 15: They're parallels to pig butchering scams, where you know, he
Speaker 15: said he knew someone who was helping him with crypto
Speaker 15: investments basically, and in pig butchering, usually they find someone
Speaker 15: and they are encouraging them to put money into a
Speaker 15: sometimes fraudulent crypto app. They say, just put a little
Speaker 15: more in and we can get you your money out.
Speaker 15: Maybe there's an issue with taxes or the wired didn't
Speaker 15: go through. Try again, and it's it's really really sad.
Speaker 6: You know, what's it?
Speaker 10: What's it like when you're driving out there and and
Speaker 10: then you you get there and what are the vibes
Speaker 10: in a town like this when something.
Speaker 6: Like this happens.
Speaker 15: Yeah, So the drive out there, I really felt like
Speaker 15: in order to report the story, I needed to go there.
Speaker 15: And you know, it's it's a pretty you know, sparsely
Speaker 15: populated town. It's very.
Speaker 1: Even.
Speaker 15: The layout is very insular, like you can drive around
Speaker 15: all the neighborhoods and it's all kind of connected. Like
Speaker 15: I felt like I was able to get a pretty
Speaker 15: good feel for what the town was like, even just
Speaker 15: being there for like two days.
Speaker 2: People there are so so nice.
Speaker 15: Very few people wanted their name to have anything to
Speaker 15: do with this story because of the sensitivities of it,
Speaker 15: but they were eager to talk about it, like I said,
Speaker 15: because I think, you know, some people are very disappointed
Speaker 15: and upset. Some people are just straight up like they
Speaker 15: want the full scoop, they want to know what happened.
Speaker 15: They're eager for the gossip. So everyone had kind of
Speaker 15: a different perspective, And you know, this is a community
Speaker 15: where everyone kind of knows each other. When I was there,
Speaker 15: I wasn't sure if people like knew that I was
Speaker 15: a stranger, but it did seem like some people kind
Speaker 15: of vibe about me and kind of may have known
Speaker 15: that I was a reporter. So it was really helpful
Speaker 15: to go there and get a sense of the community
Speaker 15: and just how it really is a very kind community.
Speaker 15: And so I think that's why people are very disappointed
Speaker 15: by what happened, because I mean, Shane was part of that,
Speaker 15: He was part of the community. He was known as
Speaker 15: such a nice person, and you know, I talked to
Speaker 15: someone who described him as like assault of the earth
Speaker 15: human being, and I think some people still have that
Speaker 15: view about him. Basically, people want to think the best
Speaker 15: of him in this situation. They want to know if
Speaker 15: he was trying to help the bank. They really want
Speaker 15: to understand, like why this would happen. And so I
Speaker 15: have a feeling this story won't be the last story
Speaker 15: we write about it, because it seems like there's maybe
Speaker 15: more to the story.
Speaker 6: So I'm curious also about so many things in this
Speaker 6: like do we know what kind of crypto it was?
Speaker 15: Like?
Speaker 1: What what you know?
Speaker 6: How long was he potentially involved in this?
Speaker 10: And then also now there's a new bank in town,
Speaker 10: So what's it like to have, you know, a bank
Speaker 10: fixture of this community in the form of Heartland tri
Speaker 10: State Bank, and then all of a sudden, it's like
Speaker 10: crypto scam FDIIC steps in and now we get a new,
Speaker 10: you know, not quite as local bank on your doorstep.
Speaker 15: Definitely, I think that's a big concern within the industry.
Speaker 15: I didn't know this before reporting this, but there's been
Speaker 15: a major consolidation of community banks in the US over
Speaker 15: the past few decades. And so the role that community
Speaker 15: banks play in a town like Elkhart, where you know,
Speaker 15: there's a Bank of America there, they're able to step
Speaker 15: in and provide credit to farmers or local business owners
Speaker 15: that they know personally, and they're able to kind of
Speaker 15: gauge the economic conditions locally there. They're able to gauge,
Speaker 15: you know, whether this person is trustworthy, and if they
Speaker 15: believe in the person, they can give them this loan,
Speaker 15: they'll pay it back. They're able to use like soft
Speaker 15: soft information to kind of develop their lending. And I
Speaker 15: talked to a professor, Jeremy Kress at the University of Michigan,
Speaker 15: who talked about just kind of how there's studies that
Speaker 15: show when you lose a community bank, there's less small
Speaker 15: business lending, there's less wage growth, there's all these like
Speaker 15: knock on effects that happen when a community bank is lost.
Speaker 15: So even though this other bank has come in, they
Speaker 15: said that they're not laying off any employees, you know,
Speaker 15: they basically said it's business as usual. The more that
Speaker 15: this happens. It seems like there are impacts, and I
Speaker 15: think with Elkhart, I would be interested for someone to
Speaker 15: come back in in five years and see did anything
Speaker 15: change with the new owner? How was this affected the
Speaker 15: local economy which.
Speaker 3: Is very very act based, Amanda, I'm wondering what Shane
Speaker 3: Haynes is up to now. You started talking about what
Speaker 3: he was doing before this happened, but what's happened to
Speaker 3: him now?
Speaker 15: He's very quiet. People around town have seen him, and
Speaker 15: I think, you know, they are just as curious as
Speaker 15: me about his perspective on things. But we don't We
Speaker 15: don't really know his view on what happened.
Speaker 2: I mean, do we still not know really what happened?
Speaker 2: Is that safe to say we know what.
Speaker 15: I've been able to report, Sir, I'm being careful with that, No, no,
Speaker 15: I yeah, that's fair. There's still a lot of questions
Speaker 15: like that I have about the story, which is why
Speaker 15: I was joking about people calling me. But you know,
Speaker 15: I'm curious if there was a person who if it
Speaker 15: like some of this is the story of what happened,
Speaker 15: because I've heard from sources, but truly the only person
Speaker 15: who can really speak to the full story is Shane himself.
Speaker 15: You know, if there was actually another person helping him
Speaker 15: do this, I'm curious about that. And so yeah, yeah,
Speaker 15: it's something that I'm now that I've been to Elkhart
Speaker 15: and talk to all these people, I feel very committed
Speaker 15: to like reporting on this, and sorry, parts of the
Speaker 15: story are work in progress, but I definitely think in
Speaker 15: the coming weeks and months, like we'll know more. But
Speaker 15: it seems like more of a sad story than anything
Speaker 15: because people involved who are shareholders or you know, they
Speaker 15: don't seem to think that the shareholders are going.
Speaker 10: To get Yeah, like in a small town like this,
Speaker 10: it just feels like it's a it's a thing that's
Speaker 10: going to probably rock people, and there's gonna be a
Speaker 10: lot of interesting nuance that will play out.
Speaker 6: And obviously, like there are.
Speaker 10: Elements of the story that remain sort of a mystery
Speaker 10: and we'll see what some of this ongoing sort of
Speaker 10: investigative kind of qualities on Earth is.
Speaker 3: Is Amanda going to be finding herself driving on Route
Speaker 3: fifty six.
Speaker 10: I mean, Amanda, Joel, You've got you know, some some
Speaker 10: cornfields to cover there, you know, so you just just
Speaker 10: keep driving driving west I guess.
Speaker 3: This is Joel's face, Amanda. This is Joel's favorite place
Speaker 3: to assigned stories live on air.
Speaker 6: Just a HEADSETE.
Speaker 10: It's good that you're nearby, right, So yeah, it's to me,
Speaker 10: it's just like it is an amazing story. Obviously, bank
Speaker 10: failures have been a thing this year, and like here
Speaker 10: we are yet again, only for slightly different, different circumstances.
Speaker 10: We don't usually see this combination of things together in America.
Speaker 3: Well, I think anyway, what stuck out to me so
Speaker 3: much about this story, Joel is the fact that this
Speaker 3: person was not only in financial services, but it was
Speaker 3: the head of a bank. And you don't speak it right,
Speaker 3: and then you don't think about people who fall for
Speaker 3: things like this as being you know, this quote unquote sophisticated.
Speaker 3: But it shows you know, again again we don't know
Speaker 3: the d tales of what it is, but that cryptoscams
Speaker 3: can hit anyone, and in.
Speaker 10: A small town like this, where you know, it's a
Speaker 10: kind of a fixture of the community. And Amanda also
Speaker 10: did some great reporting in the story about how vocal
Speaker 10: he was in d C about the importance of having
Speaker 10: these small hometown style banks and and you know, in general,
Speaker 10: when we start to lose that element, I think there's
Speaker 10: you just that's part of America, right, like it's it's
Speaker 10: a wonderful life, right, Like that's what we do here.
Speaker 2: Right, and so important to communities. I was also thinking, Amanda,
Speaker 2: you know, Thanksgiving and the holidays are going to be
Speaker 2: fun around the Haynes family, right because there were a
Speaker 2: lot of family members that were shareholders in that bank,
Speaker 2: and that makes it you know, you've got you know,
Speaker 2: you know the depositors, right, they're going to be they're
Speaker 2: going to be made whole because of the fdi C.
Speaker 2: But if you were a shareholder in the bank, that
Speaker 2: was a different story exactly.
Speaker 15: I feel like that's where the tragedy of the story lies.
Speaker 15: And also that tension because you know, the shareholders all
Speaker 15: know each other, their neighbors, they've known each other for
Speaker 15: a long time, and a lot of them, this was
Speaker 15: just something I picked up while I was in town,
Speaker 15: was a lot of them are ones that are not
Speaker 15: named in the FED document. They my reporting indicates that
Speaker 15: a lot of them might be older women who are retirees,
Speaker 15: maybe widowers, And it's just tragic because imagine if you
Speaker 15: put your four oh one k or. You know, you
Speaker 15: put them in this bank stock and you trusted, you
Speaker 15: trusted what you were investing in because you know the
Speaker 15: people involved. And I think that's where this story is
Speaker 15: just very, very sad and.
Speaker 2: Goes back to the importance of what Jill, what you
Speaker 2: were talking about this. You know, you have these small
Speaker 2: banks and these small ears of the of the country,
Speaker 2: and they're really important.
Speaker 10: Just if I come to you and I'm like, hey,
Speaker 10: I need twelve million dollars for a week, I'll get
Speaker 10: you one million.
Speaker 6: I'm good for it. Just say no.
Speaker 3: Well, if I had twelve million dollars to give you,
Speaker 3: no offense, but I wouldn't be hanging out with you.
Speaker 1: Guys.
Speaker 2: Amazing story. We hope the phone starts ringing off the commando.
Speaker 2: All right, Wealth Team reporter for Bloomberg News and Jel Webber.
Speaker 8: Thank you.
Speaker 1: This is the Bloomberg Business Week podcast, available on Apple, Spotify,
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