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Speaker 1: Hi, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff I've

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Speaker 1: never told you. As we mentioned in our part one

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Speaker 1: episode on tabletop gaming with Tracy V. Wilson, we were

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Speaker 1: going to do a follow up on tabletop gaming development,

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Speaker 1: and here is that episode, and Tracy put me in

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Speaker 1: touch with our guest today, tabletop game developer Nicole. Hi. Nicole, Hi, Annie,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. Yeah, thanks

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Speaker 1: for having me. Could you tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: about yourself? Sure? So. I am one half of the

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Speaker 1: game development team Cardboard Fortress Games. Um, it's me and

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Speaker 1: my husband. We made Resistor and Lasers and um a

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Speaker 1: game called Atari Atari cine Feed, which is a game

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Speaker 1: based on the old arcade game which is pretty funny.

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Speaker 1: Um and uh yeah, we have like a ton of

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Speaker 1: other games that are in development right now. But um yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what else to say. I'm like, uh,

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Speaker 1: and during the day, I am a research analyst. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if that's interesting, of course it is. I

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Speaker 1: love I love research. I'm such a research nerd. How

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Speaker 1: did you get into tabletop game design? So? Um, gosh,

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Speaker 1: about nine years ago and like two thousand, I started

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Speaker 1: writing video game reviews and through that I got involved

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Speaker 1: in the local video game development scene. Um, I live

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Speaker 1: in Philadelphia and there were way more video game developers

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Speaker 1: than I could have even imagined. And we ended up

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Speaker 1: starting like a little group that met once a month,

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Speaker 1: and then that turned into like a weekly game dev

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Speaker 1: meeting kind of thing. Was called Philly DEEV Knight and

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Speaker 1: my husband and I we had we started dating in

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Speaker 1: and we would go to these meetings and there would

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Speaker 1: be game jams. Do you know what a game jam is? Idea,

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Speaker 1: but I would love if you could explain it. Sure, sure, sure,

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Speaker 1: So game jam is just everybody basically has the same

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Speaker 1: topic or the same general idea to work from, and

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Speaker 1: you have a set amount of time to make a game.

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Speaker 1: So ours was we have twenty four hours to make

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Speaker 1: a game, and the theme was picking Oasis song title

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Speaker 1: and make a game out of it, right, And I

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Speaker 1: was like, Wow, that doesn't sound interesting, And then I

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Speaker 1: looked up Oasis song titles and I was like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, these are so bizarre. So my husband and

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Speaker 1: I were like, well, we can't make a video game,

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Speaker 1: but let's make a board game because we love playing

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Speaker 1: board games. So we're like, why don't we just make

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Speaker 1: a board game, and we ended up making a board

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Speaker 1: game that won the jam, and that is like where

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Speaker 1: it kind of all started. We ended up like figuring

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Speaker 1: out how to actually make the game and then putting

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Speaker 1: it on Kickstarter, and then we learned how to work

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Speaker 1: with publishers and that that was kind of like the

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Speaker 1: spark that started at all. May I ask what Oasis

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Speaker 1: song title you went with? Sure, roll It Over was

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Speaker 1: the name of this song title, and that, Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: So the game is, um, it's called Resistant. It's like

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Speaker 1: there's red lines blue lines or red and blue lines

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Speaker 1: on each card, and each card is double sided and

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Speaker 1: there's a different image on each side and you're trying

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Speaker 1: to like connect your lines to go across words. So

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Speaker 1: if I was the red player, I would try to

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Speaker 1: get like a full red line going all the way

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Speaker 1: across the board. And Anthony, my husband, was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we should make a game where we should use the

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Speaker 1: title roll it Over and use a game where you

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Speaker 1: have to like flip cards over and you're using both

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Speaker 1: sides of the card. So we ended up not keeping

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Speaker 1: the title, but that was the song. Um. Could you

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Speaker 1: describe more in depth the what goes into making a game? UM, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm just very curious and I yeah, that's your sure, sure, sure,

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Speaker 1: um We've had um there there's like a big divide

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Speaker 1: in the industry where it's like, well do you work

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Speaker 1: with theme first with mechanics first? And I feel like

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Speaker 1: we have kind of done both. Um. Like obviously with Resistor,

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Speaker 1: we had like a theme and a mechanic sort of

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Speaker 1: at the same time. The mechanic came person then we

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Speaker 1: ended up adding the theme because we were like, well,

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Speaker 1: what can we put on this? We put you know,

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Speaker 1: trains on this, connecting train lines or and we were

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Speaker 1: like what about you know, computer circuits, and we're like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it could be like war games and that that was

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Speaker 1: really funny because we were like, let's do war games

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Speaker 1: at old eighties movie and then we turned the TV

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Speaker 1: on and it was on TV and we were like, well,

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Speaker 1: if that's a sign. But for the most part, it's

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Speaker 1: you know, Anthony and I will kind of like go

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Speaker 1: back and forth about an idea, and then if we

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Speaker 1: I think the idea is like viable, then we'll kind

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Speaker 1: of like start making it physically, like we'll cut pieces out,

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Speaker 1: or we'll just like you know, drawn on index cards

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Speaker 1: or and over the last five six year as we

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Speaker 1: have gotten so many different prototyping tools, like we have

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Speaker 1: you know, we bought blank cards, and we have all

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Speaker 1: different kinds of dice and like we've cannibalized old games

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Speaker 1: for pieces. So once we kind of play it a

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Speaker 1: few times, that can kind of show us like whether

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Speaker 1: or not we should keep going, whether we should hone it.

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Speaker 1: And it's a little bit tough because Anthony's a graphic designer,

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Speaker 1: so he also wants to make the prototypes like look

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Speaker 1: really beautiful right away. You know, if he makes a

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Speaker 1: lot of cards and they look beautiful and take us

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Speaker 1: to make them and then you know, one major thing

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Speaker 1: is wrong that's on each card. You know, he doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to just cross it out if you had made

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Speaker 1: them on like index cards or blank cards and you

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Speaker 1: could just cross it out and you know, resleeve it.

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Speaker 1: So a lot of people will use um, you know,

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Speaker 1: they'll use the bare minimum pieces. They'll use index cards

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Speaker 1: or regular cards, and their intent is to get the

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Speaker 1: mechanics down and pitch it to a publisher and then

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Speaker 1: the publisher will take care of everything else. So it's

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Speaker 1: kind of different for everybody. Some people go into it

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Speaker 1: thinking like I'm working on this game. I start with

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Speaker 1: an idea, then I make the physical prototype, and then

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Speaker 1: I'm going to kind of be doing everything myself and

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Speaker 1: making it look a certain way. And other people are like, no,

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Speaker 1: I just want to do the most basic prototyping I can,

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Speaker 1: and then I'm going to offload it to somebody else

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Speaker 1: who's going to do all the other stuff. Is that

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Speaker 1: sort of the normal pipeline or the traditional pipeline? I

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Speaker 1: guess like you would design a game and maybe have

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Speaker 1: a prototype and then you would show it to a

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Speaker 1: publisher and try to get them to to buy it

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Speaker 1: and to make it. Or is there like a lot

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Speaker 1: more kickstarter type things now and self publishing. I think

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Speaker 1: that a lot of people are self publishing, and I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people are self publishing because they

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Speaker 1: aren't sure how to get to a publisher. Doesn't I

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Speaker 1: don't know if that makes sense. But we I mean,

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Speaker 1: now that we've been doing this for so long, I

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Speaker 1: think that a lot of the people that we know

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Speaker 1: are death only the kind of people who pitched to publishers,

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Speaker 1: and we've become those people because we don't want to

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Speaker 1: do a kickstarter. We don't want to have to worry about,

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Speaker 1: you know, distribution and having all those games in our

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Speaker 1: house and going to the post office and all that stuff,

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Speaker 1: which is really overwhelming to me. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think I think part of it is um some

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Speaker 1: people just want to do the game development part and

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Speaker 1: and and once you get to a certain point, you

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Speaker 1: become privileged enough that you can just do that because

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Speaker 1: you have set up the groundwork to have pipelines to

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Speaker 1: publishers and stuff like that and other people, you know.

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Speaker 1: I think I think kickstarter is often how people start,

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Speaker 1: and then once they kind of get to know the industry,

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Speaker 1: they can decide if they want to try to pursue

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Speaker 1: working with a publisher which also has its own you know,

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Speaker 1: hosts of pros and cons, because you're going to get

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Speaker 1: less money and you're going to have less control over

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Speaker 1: how the game is going to look and stuff like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: as someone who's like dipped my toe in the world

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Speaker 1: of publishing books, it sounds like a very similar similar thing.

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Speaker 1: I mentioned on this show before that I am in

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Speaker 1: the process of preparing to run a D and D

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Speaker 1: campaign for the first time. I love it. I'm so nervous,

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Speaker 1: but I'm like making props and I'm doing all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: And one of my favorite and most frightening aspects of it,

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Speaker 1: honestly is it's almost like psychology in a way because

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Speaker 1: you're having to think of what will people probably do

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Speaker 1: and then they probably won't do that anyway, But oh,

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Speaker 1: they won't do it. They won't do it. They're not

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Speaker 1: going to do it. I know, and I'm so nervous,

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Speaker 1: But it's just this aspect of planning the game that

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Speaker 1: I didn't really anticipate. Are there things like that that

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Speaker 1: you found in tabletop game development? Oh? Man, Yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: With running a D and D game, it's it's so

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Speaker 1: much about improvisation, and like there's so little that you

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Speaker 1: can like, like, it's about improvisation and adaptation, but there's

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Speaker 1: so little that you can then apply to another game,

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Speaker 1: because it's like all you can do is hone your

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Speaker 1: ability to improvise. I don't know if that makes sense,

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Speaker 1: but with with tabletop game development, um part of it

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Speaker 1: is watching other people player game and learning what works

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Speaker 1: and what doesn't work by watching them player game. Like

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Speaker 1: you could have an intention and then if people consistently

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Speaker 1: read a rule in a different way than you intended,

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Speaker 1: it then you either need to rewrite that rule or

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Speaker 1: you need to figure out a way to adapt to

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Speaker 1: how they're playing it because that's more intuitive to them.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense. Did you ever is this something you

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Speaker 1: ever imagined you would be doing? No? Now, I when

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Speaker 1: I was younger, I thought that I would be right books.

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Speaker 1: Like I thought I was going to write a book,

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Speaker 1: you know. That was my like goal in high school,

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Speaker 1: in college. And then when I got really into reviewing

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Speaker 1: for video games, I did, like start to dabble in.

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Speaker 1: I did some writing for video games, I did some

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Speaker 1: editing for video games, and then I was super hype

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Speaker 1: about that because I that's another passion that I've had

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Speaker 1: is is video games. I love playing them and being

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Speaker 1: in those worlds. But I never imagined that I would

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Speaker 1: be making board games. It's it blows me away on

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Speaker 1: a pretty regular basis. Do you have any any favorite

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Speaker 1: tabletop games or any of that inspired you? Yeah? Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: The first The first one that really inspired my husband

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Speaker 1: and I is Pandemic or familiar with pandemic. I love pandemic.

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Speaker 1: It's so great, right you say pandemic legacy? No, but

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Speaker 1: I got it after speaking to Chasey and she told

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Speaker 1: me she was a part of the like test t like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go out right after this and buy

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Speaker 1: it perfect. Yeah, Pandemic Legacy is super good. It's fun.

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Speaker 1: We're we're part way in the season two. The only

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Speaker 1: fans hard about it is getting a group together to

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Speaker 1: consistently play it as adult because everybody is an adult

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Speaker 1: with important, stupid crap to do. But yeah, we we

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Speaker 1: love Pandemic. Um. That actually inspired us. We we've been

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Speaker 1: working on a co op game for as long as

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Speaker 1: we've been together almost um that we've been like honing

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Speaker 1: and we're hoping to like find a home for it. UM. Recently,

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Speaker 1: I really love Azul. Have you played as Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: it's beautiful. It's this beautiful game where you're like making

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Speaker 1: a mosaic with these tiles and it's very tactile. The

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Speaker 1: pieces are really pleasing to like touch, and the math

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Speaker 1: of it is really fun. Like either there's the strategy

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Speaker 1: in it and there's a certain level of like blocking

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Speaker 1: other people out for being able to do what they do.

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Speaker 1: And it's the first time I played it, I joke

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Speaker 1: that like my computer brain turned on because I was

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Speaker 1: just like, oh my god, I know exactly what I

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Speaker 1: need to do and how to do it, and I

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Speaker 1: can set up like multiple moves even if somebody takes

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Speaker 1: the piece I need, And like when the game was over,

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Speaker 1: I like, you know, booted down and was like what happens?

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Speaker 1: Did I win? What? Where? Where was I for the

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Speaker 1: last half an hour? Um? And king Domino is like

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Speaker 1: that also. I feel like king Domino is less abstract,

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Speaker 1: but it's another one of those games where it's just oh,

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Speaker 1: it's just really like, it's really satisfying. So those are

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Speaker 1: two games I like right now. And there's another game

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Speaker 1: called Avocado Smash just yeah. The container it comes and

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Speaker 1: looks like an avocado. The cards feel like avocado skin.

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Speaker 1: They're like lately Yeah, they have like an interesting texture

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Speaker 1: to it. And it's a dexterity game. It's just a

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Speaker 1: game where when when something happens, everybody has to slap

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Speaker 1: the cards in the middle, and the last person to

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Speaker 1: slap gets all the cards and you're trying to get

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Speaker 1: rid of all of your cards and it is so fun.

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Speaker 1: It is like it has it's like a ten dollar

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Speaker 1: game and it comes in an avocado INSPI company that

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Speaker 1: I've never heard of. Then it has no business being

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Speaker 1: as fun as it is. I love it. I'm definitely

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Speaker 1: gonna check that out. Cool. Yeah. Um. So for for

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Speaker 1: listeners that are wondering, well, why why are we talking

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Speaker 1: about this on a show about feminism, we kind of

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Speaker 1: touched on it in our episode previous with Tracy about

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Speaker 1: how women in tabletop gaming for a long time haven't

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Speaker 1: been represented and the same is true for women developers

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Speaker 1: in the world of tabletop gaming. And we will get

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Speaker 1: into that after a quick break for word from our sponsor,

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Speaker 1: and we're back, Thank you sponsor. So, um, we do

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Speaker 1: have some numbers for you, a quick numbers run down,

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Speaker 1: and some of these will sound familiar, but I think

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Speaker 1: they're worth restating for this conversation. Like we mentioned in

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Speaker 1: our previous tabletop gaming, so the numbers of players and

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Speaker 1: thus the profits from tabletop gaming are going up, and

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Speaker 1: we included this number in that episode. The best selling

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Speaker 1: board games in sixteen were all designed by men. In

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Speaker 1: the nineteen nominees of Game of the Year awards between sixteen,

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Speaker 1: none of them identified as women. And if we look

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Speaker 1: at gen Con, one of the largest and oldest gaming

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Speaker 1: conventions sixteens, gen Con featured fifty of speakers that were women,

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Speaker 1: but inn there was literally only one and there's still

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Speaker 1: so much work to be done because don't forget in

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Speaker 1: one of gen CON's panels called writing Women Friendly Comic Characters,

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Speaker 1: did not include any panelists that identified as women, until

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Speaker 1: ensuing backlash. Have you ever been to gen Con? I have, yes,

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Speaker 1: I We've gone four I think the last four or

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Speaker 1: five years. What's it like, Oh, yeah, it's a it's

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Speaker 1: a lot of white men. Yeah, it's a lot of

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Speaker 1: white guys. Um. And it's know, it's a lot of

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Speaker 1: people who don't understand why women need to be more represented.

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Speaker 1: And that's frustrating, that's super frustrating. You know. I'm in

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Speaker 1: such a bubble of of people who are more progressive

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Speaker 1: that going to events like that can be really jarring. Um.

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Speaker 1: And that article that that you're quoting, Um, I read

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Speaker 1: it and I was completely blown away by the numbers

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Speaker 1: and not I wouldn't say I'm surprised. I think I'm

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Speaker 1: I think it's just seeing the numbers is just so overwhelming,

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Speaker 1: you know. And and like I said, I'm a research

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Speaker 1: analyst by day, so data is my jam. So I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, this article is so great.

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Speaker 1: It does such a good deep dive and like, look

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Speaker 1: at her pie charts, they're so good. But um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: gen Con is and and one of the things that's

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Speaker 1: hard about gen Con and going to pack the pin

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Speaker 1: your Kdexpo and other events like that is I often

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Speaker 1: get asked to be on panels and I get to

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Speaker 1: the panel and I'm the only woman on the panel,

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Speaker 1: and that I'm it makes me self conscious because it

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Speaker 1: makes me wonder if the only reason I've been invited

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Speaker 1: to the panel is because I'm a woman, and that

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Speaker 1: makes me feel really like crappy about myself and insecures.

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Speaker 1: I already have hardcore imposter syndrome even just being there.

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Speaker 1: And um, we did do a panel at packs some

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Speaker 1: plugged called, um, you know, women in Gaming, and we

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Speaker 1: were all white women and afterwards I was like, oh crap,

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Speaker 1: we're all white women. So you know, it's you know,

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Speaker 1: places like gen Con, and it's it's just it's just

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Speaker 1: so hard. It's so hard because there's it's so overwhelmingly male,

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Speaker 1: and it's so overwhelmingly the kind of men who are

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Speaker 1: like you know, a lot of them don't have a

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Speaker 1: problem sharing the space with women until women want to

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Speaker 1: have equal representation and then they have a problem with it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: One thing that came out of the conversation that Tracy

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Speaker 1: and I had about this is we both kind of,

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Speaker 1: like you were saying, shared that in our experiences it

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Speaker 1: is a much more like progressive, diverse space. But um,

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Speaker 1: Tracy was saying, because I've never been to something like

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Speaker 1: gen Con. Um, I've been a Dragon comm but that's

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Speaker 1: very different. But something like that where that's when she

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Speaker 1: would notice like, oh, it's mostly white dudes around, Um,

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Speaker 1: so many white dudes, Yeah, like a c of them.

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Speaker 1: I did read something because I'm also a language nerd um,

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Speaker 1: and I read something about how they were more women

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Speaker 1: manning the voost at gen Con and how they were

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Speaker 1: talking about like changing the language around that. I just

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Speaker 1: thought that was interesting interesting. Yeah, yeah, I haven't really

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Speaker 1: considered that before. But yeah, I suppose Gary guy Nact,

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Speaker 1: the creator of Dungeons and Jagons, once told Icon Magazine quote,

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Speaker 1: gaming in general is a male thing. Everybody who's tried

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Speaker 1: to design a game to interest a large female audience

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Speaker 1: has failed, And I think that has to do with

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Speaker 1: the different thinking processes of men and women, which is

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Speaker 1: just not correct, right, now there's so many things wrong

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Speaker 1: I'm not even sure where to tackle. Um. Have you,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to assume the answer to jest, but

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Speaker 1: have you experienced sexism in the world of tabletop gaming

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Speaker 1: or other obstacles related to it? Yeah, I've UM. When

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Speaker 1: I the first time I went to b g G Con,

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Speaker 1: which is the convention centered around dank geek, um, I had.

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Speaker 1: I had not really, I had not really worked many

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Speaker 1: conventions before that. I had. I had gone to conventions,

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Speaker 1: I had gone as pressed to do interviews about video games,

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Speaker 1: but I hadn't like been an exhibitor until you know,

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Speaker 1: we until we published Resistor. So when I was at

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Speaker 1: b g G, I had a guy say to me,

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Speaker 1: our company is called Cardboard Fortress Games, so we wear

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Speaker 1: like little cardboard boxes on our heads just to just

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Speaker 1: to be funny. And um, I like put the box

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Speaker 1: on to do a demo and this guy was like,

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Speaker 1: you were cuter without the box, and I was just

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Speaker 1: like too stunned to say anything. So I was just

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Speaker 1: like he like, you know, I didn't know what to say.

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Speaker 1: And I had another guy recently, I had a guy. Um.

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Speaker 1: In late I went to an event at one of

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Speaker 1: our local board game stores, and he was a friend

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Speaker 1: of the owner, and you know, he was talking to

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Speaker 1: a friend of mine who I also happen to be

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Speaker 1: talking to, and he was like, oh, you make games.

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Speaker 1: Like he turned like he didn't realize that I was

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Speaker 1: one of the game designers at the event. He was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you make games. I was like yeah, and he was like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: how do you know how do you make games? And

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Speaker 1: I opened my mouth to answer and he said, oh,

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Speaker 1: never mind, if you can do them, I'm sure anyone can.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah. And I it was just like cool, bye forever,

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Speaker 1: and just like walked away. And my friend also walked

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Speaker 1: away because he was like, that was really crappy. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that was awful. Yeah, it's just and and it's and

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Speaker 1: it's you know, so many predominantly white men will say

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Speaker 1: to you like, well, why didn't you just say something?

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Speaker 1: Why didn't you just tell them that you felt uncomfortab

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Speaker 1: Why don't you just say no? And it's like you

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Speaker 1: have no concept of how it feels in the moment,

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Speaker 1: like you feel panicked, like you you you certainly aren't

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Speaker 1: going to come up with something witty, and you certain

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Speaker 1: you certainly aren't gonna be able to say something that

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Speaker 1: doesn't sound angry, and you know, twenty minutes later you're like,

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Speaker 1: I should have said this, But you know there and

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Speaker 1: there's also that like fear of them getting mad and

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Speaker 1: yelling at you, you know, or or like starting a scene.

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Speaker 1: So you know, it's you know, it's it's because of

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Speaker 1: the people that I hang out with. I would say

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Speaker 1: that it's been It hasn't been as bad as it

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Speaker 1: would have been, but I've definitely experienced it, like I

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Speaker 1: haven't had. You know, there there have been friends that

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Speaker 1: I know who have been harassed. I think in that

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Speaker 1: article she mentioned the thing that have net origins where

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Speaker 1: someone was sexually harassed, and that girl still gets harrassed

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Speaker 1: on Twitter constantly, like every day now, and it's like

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Speaker 1: seven months later, six months later, so you know, it's

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Speaker 1: it's really out of control. Yeah, and kind of off

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Speaker 1: of that, because we did talk about in the episode

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Speaker 1: of Tracy about um sexual harassment that's experienced by by

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Speaker 1: women in this world. But as I said myself, I

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Speaker 1: have had a pretty good experience in the tabletop gaming world.

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Speaker 1: But I do think it's interesting that for two things. One,

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Speaker 1: for a very long time I just assumed that they

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Speaker 1: were not for me. I remember recoiling almost violently when

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Speaker 1: someone asked me, like, do you like tabletop games? I'm like,

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Speaker 1: oh no, um right, And the second is I really

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Speaker 1: love UM. I love playing tabletop games. I have like

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Speaker 1: three different groups that do it now pretty regularly, but occasionally,

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Speaker 1: because like you said, I we're all adults and we

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Speaker 1: have other responsibilities and playing tabletop games, um, sometimes we

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Speaker 1: don't get to meet as often as I would like.

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Speaker 1: And I am a a single woman with like less

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Speaker 1: obligations to other people than a lot of people I'm

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Speaker 1: playing with. So I'll see an event for like, dropped

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Speaker 1: by this bar and play D and D. And even

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Speaker 1: without having these experiences myself, I just I guess I

400
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Speaker 1: had internalized that if I go to something like that,

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Speaker 1: I'm worried that I would be harassed or looked down

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Speaker 1: upon or just even treated differently, and that I would

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Speaker 1: it wouldn't be a fun experience for me, or that

404
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Speaker 1: people wouldn't be patient for me if it's a new game,

405
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Speaker 1: and things like that that I just didn't until I

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Speaker 1: put thought into it, I didn't realize that I had

407
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Speaker 1: those thoughts inside of me. Yeah, I I totally get it,

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Speaker 1: you know, I met I met my husband because we

409
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Speaker 1: there was a Wizard of the Coast was doing a

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Speaker 1: thing for Fourth Edition D and D where you could

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Speaker 1: play something called Encounters, and it was a weekly event

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Speaker 1: at local board game stores where you could just play

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Speaker 1: a single encounter from a module. So it's like eased

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Speaker 1: you into the rules and how to play it. And

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Speaker 1: that's how I met Anthony was I went to an

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Speaker 1: Encounters and he was there and we ended up you know, dating.

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Speaker 1: But I had a lot I felt a lot of

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Speaker 1: trepidation because I don't do a voice during D and D,

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Speaker 1: and I don't necessarily get super into the character, and

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Speaker 1: I am not great improvising all the time, and sometimes

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Speaker 1: I'm not you know, on so I don't feel like

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Speaker 1: I can come up with funny, clever ideas, and I

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Speaker 1: feel like everybody's just going to think I'm dumb. And

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Speaker 1: I don't always know all the rules. So it, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it took playing constantly and I'm I'm still on over that.

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Speaker 1: You know, we play. We have a monthly game of

427
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: Fourth Edition that we play, and then we also have

428
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 1: a monthly Fifth Edition game that we play that gets

429
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 1: recorded and goes on YouTube. I can't tell you. I

430
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 1: can't tell you how like that. I get nervous every

431
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: single time we record because I made the mistake of

432
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 1: reading the comments one time, and they hate me, like,

433
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: I mean, like we've grown on them. My husband I

434
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 1: play um Goblin Juggalos, so we're goblos. So we are obnoxious.

435
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 1: I mean we are really intensely out of control. And

436
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 1: the first episode I made the mistake of reading some

437
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,959
Speaker 1: of the comments, and but we're like we hate her.

438
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: And I was like, why do you hate me? We're

439
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: both being goblet We're both doing this, like why do

440
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: you hate me? And I was like, I'm never reading

441
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: the comments again. I'm just never gonna do it strongly

442
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: against it. Yeah. But but the other thing is, you

443
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 1: know we had played when you think I first started dating,

444
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: we played so many role playing games that we got

445
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: to a point where we started playing Shadow Run fifth Edition.

446
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're familiar with shadow Run at all.

447
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 1: It is complicated. It has a very complicated rule set,

448
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 1: and the fifth edition of it was no exception. It

449
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 1: was very complicated. And I literally sat down at the

450
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,400
Speaker 1: table and said, hey, guys, I have learned so many

451
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: new RPGs in the last couple of months that I

452
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: am not even going to bother reading the book because

453
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: I don't want to learn another one, and you guys

454
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: all keep complaining about it, which makes me realize that

455
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: it's not an enjoyable thing to learn the rules for.

456
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,239
Speaker 1: So I'm just going to tell you what I want

457
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,640
Speaker 1: to do. You guys tell me how many dice to roll,

458
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: and I'm just going to role play and have a

459
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: good time. And you know, it was one of the

460
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: best times I've had role playing because I didn't put

461
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: so much thought into like, oh, well, how can I

462
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: min max my turn and how can I be the

463
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: best character possible. I was like, no, I don't want

464
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 1: to do that. I just want to play some asps

465
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: and have a good time. And it was fun and

466
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: and I feel like letting go of some of my

467
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: self consciousness has been really hard but has made it

468
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: easier to play. And I also I have the same

469
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: feeling that you do about playing new games with new people,

470
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 1: new board games with new people, because you feel like

471
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: I always have that panic of what if I don't

472
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: get it? Like what if I just what if I

473
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 1: just don't rock it? And you're really doing yourself a disservice,

474
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 1: Like you're very smart. You do all kinds of stuff

475
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 1: every single day. Like we like, we do stuff that's

476
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: way harder than learning a board game every day, and

477
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: we don't have the same kind of anxiety. And it's

478
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 1: because we have that fear of like, oh, no, somebody

479
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: might think, like somebody might judge me, and I you know,

480
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: I have taken to when it's my turn the first time,

481
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 1: if I'm playing a new game, especially with new people,

482
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: my first turn, I'll be like, okay, so just to

483
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 1: be clear, these are my options. And then I'll state

484
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: the options that I have, and I'll be like but

485
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: and then I can do this right. And then if

486
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 1: I really don't if there's something I really don't get,

487
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: I'll be like, but what's the point of me doing

488
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 1: this thing? So I like try to make them explain

489
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: it to me while repeating everything they say so that

490
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: I'll remember it. I don't know if that's helpful to

491
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: other people, but no, it sounds like a good strategy

492
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, it helps like brind it into my brain. Yeah.

493
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 1: And I've found that for certain games, the rules can

494
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: look so overwhelming and they might be but once you

495
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 1: start playing it, it doesn't feel as overwhelming. Yeah, And

496
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 1: you had mentioned earlier about like the impront we talked

497
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 1: about like the improvisation for like prepping for D and

498
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: D and stuff like that. And I think that when

499
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: you write rules, part of the problem is that sometimes

500
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: you get sucked into a black hole of well, how

501
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 1: dumb is the player? And then you end up you

502
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: really end up over writing the rules because you're like,

503
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: do I have to tell them how to draw a card?

504
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: Do I have to tell them exactly where to discard it? Well,

505
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: somebody one time asked me this question, do I have

506
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 1: to address it in the rule book? And that ends

507
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: up bloating the rule book? But people just get really nervous,

508
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:32,239
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, absolutely, It's kind of to me, it's

509
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: kind of a frustrating thing because tabletop gaming is what's

510
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: supposed to be very fun and for me has been,

511
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: but there was all of this stress around it, and

512
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: occasionally there still is. And it's like this fun activity

513
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: that has legit health benefits. I mean, on top of

514
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: like it helps you be more creative, it helps the

515
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: problem solving, it helps with all this stuff. It helps

516
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: distress people to think that people are being frightened away

517
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: or intimidated by this fun thing that can be can

518
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: mean so much makes me angry. Yeah, it's depressing. It's

519
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: it's the same thing with video games. And she had

520
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: what is her is her name Trudy and that who

521
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: wrote that article, Tanya Tanya, Sorry, she had mentioned that

522
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: that happens with female gamers who play, you know, online

523
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: video games that they like try to like pretend that

524
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: they're a guy, or they just stopped playing it, or

525
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: they blame themselves for being harassed, and that's so sad. Oh. Absolutely,

526
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: I've told the story on this show before. I stopped

527
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: playing online games because it became it took something that

528
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: was fun and it became a very stressful, intimidating experience.

529
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: And this was like middle school. Yeah, yeah, um, are

530
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: there what other problems you see in this world of

531
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: tabletop gaming? And how do you think we could make

532
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: it better? Sure? One of the most interesting things about

533
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: that article was that she talked about the art on

534
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: the covers and how aliens and animals are more represented

535
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: than women on those covers, and I was like, shut up.

536
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: I was so mad about that. And I think you

537
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: know when when she wrote the part about one Deck Dungeon,

538
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: how one Deck Dungeon is like prominently female, how one

539
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: guy was like, when you come out with a male version,

540
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: let me know and I'll play it like that makes

541
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: me so mad. I think that. I think that, you know,

542
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: we talked about like, well, it needs to be more

543
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: diverse and needs to be more inclusive. White men need

544
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: to be educated, like like white men need to understand

545
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: like and even you know, I talk about that my

546
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: groups are progressive and that's true. But you know, my

547
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: husband the other day said it, well, I didn't really

548
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: like Disney movies when I was a kid because I

549
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: wasn't represented in them because he, you know, he's not

550
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: a princess. And then we started watching Shira and he's like, well,

551
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: I don't really like this show because it's almost all women,

552
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: so why would I want to watch it? And it's

553
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: just like, I just I just don't know what to

554
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: say to that, because I'm like, okay, but welcome to

555
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: my whole life where almost every single thing I've consumed

556
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: has been you know, male, and it it didn't it

557
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: didn't bother me until the last couple of years because

558
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: when I was a kid I was like, well, I

559
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: just want to play. I just want to play video games.

560
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: I don't care that every single game I'm playing I'm

561
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: playing as a guy. I just want to play video games.

562
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: I love video games, you know. And you know, I

563
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: don't mind that I'm not representing TV shows. And you know,

564
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: you and I had talked about, well, it's because of

565
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: internalized misogyny. You know. Not only do I not mind,

566
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 1: I kind of don't. I kind of don't like women.

567
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 1: I kind of don't like myself. I kind of don't

568
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: want to see myself up there, you know, right, And

569
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: you know it's it's only recently that I'm like, well, no,

570
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: that would be you know, that would be really cool

571
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: to see myself represented, and it would be really cool

572
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: to have that experience. And I think that white men

573
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,479
Speaker 1: view it not as they they view it as something's

574
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: being taken away from them instead of, oh, well this

575
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: two percent has you know, women on the horse. I'm

576
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: not going to play because I I don't see myself there.

577
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: But yeah, can you for one second put yourself into

578
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: a woman's shoes and realize that all the games that

579
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: you love, like we we aren't reflected in those I

580
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: don't know. And it's so funny because I'm like, the

581
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: most important thing is to cater to white men and

582
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: educate them. But like, you know, there's only so many

583
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: times that you can be like, well, you know, we

584
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 1: should make more covers. We don't al we should have

585
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: more women. It's like, but the white men are still

586
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: going to fight against it, and I just don't know

587
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: how to get to them. I don't know how to

588
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: I don't know how to be like, Hey, I'm gonna

589
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: mail all of you a copy of Isn't This for Everybody?

590
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: By Bell Hooks? And can you please read it? There

591
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: we go right, like everybody has. We're all in a

592
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 1: book club. Now let's all read this. Yeah, get a

593
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: kickstarter going. Yeah. You judge on a lot of stuff

594
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: that I resonated with me. I was definitely one of

595
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: those I'm not like other girls people for a long

596
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: time and I look back and I cringe, um, same, same, yeah,

597
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: And I have friends that still are and it bothers

598
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: me so much because it's almost like what they're saying

599
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense with other things they're saying about themselves

600
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: personally because they are a woman, like, well, women aren't

601
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: they're just generally not as good at the X. But

602
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: I am right, it doesn't it doesn't track UM, And

603
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 1: I totally agree that it's kind of this fear of change,

604
00:33:53,680 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: of things becoming more equal, and I I personally only

605
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: I think that we're just gonna have to We're just

606
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: gonna have to keep making more diverse games. And sorry

607
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: about it if it makes you nervous, Yeah, they just

608
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: they're just so threatened. And I'm just like, but can

609
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: you introspect and look at that feeling of being friended

610
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: and like explain it? Can you explain it? And it's

611
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: it's all tied into Trump being elected and we could

612
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 1: just talk about this garbage forever, but like it's super

613
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: hard to see it as a as a general resurgence.

614
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: It almost feels like in the world, you know, but

615
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 1: so like to still it down to just tabletop gaming,

616
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: it just feels like a microcosm of everything else that's

617
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: going on, you know. I totally agree, and that's we're

618
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 1: talking about tabletop gaming that we're talking about so much more. Um,

619
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: if we if we look kind of at some numbers

620
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: from that study that we've been mentioning in this it

621
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: was a very recent day. It came out in December

622
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: eighteen and it was called Analog Game Studies by Tanya Pabudha,

623
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: and it was a sweeping look at the top two

624
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: hundred games on Board Game Geek, which is correct me

625
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, but it's sort of like I am dB,

626
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: but for board games. Yes, yeah, absolutely, um and it

627
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: it found that generally a majority of board game designers

628
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: are white men, only two point four percent were white women,

629
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 1: and only a little of a four percent were non

630
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: white men. Of the two hundred games, only seven were

631
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: designed solely or jointly by women, and that number is

632
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:43,879
Speaker 1: twelve for men of colors. So those are very stark numbers. Yeah,

633
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: it's crazy. Game designer Nicki Valens was the sole female

634
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 1: designer for the twenty second ranked game Mansions of Madness

635
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: Second Edition from S and Valence was a co designer

636
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 1: for the number forty seven game Eldritch Horror from Peggy

637
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: Chastinet was the code designer for the legacy game t

638
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 1: I M. E. Stories Time Stories from and Suzanne Goldberg

639
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,280
Speaker 1: was a co designer for the Sherleck Holmes Consulting detective

640
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: The Thames Murders in Other Cases and numbers sixty five

641
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 1: on the b g G Top two hundred, the one

642
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,439
Speaker 1: D seventy nine ranked Exit the Game, the Abandoned cabin

643
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 1: from and one ranked village from eleven. We're both jointly

644
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: designed by Inca Brand and Flaminia Brazini was jointly responsible

645
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: for the design of the forty two ranked Lorenzo Il

646
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: Magnifico from So that's just not a lot of diversity

647
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: women represented in those the top two hundred games. Um.

648
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 1: When it comes to illustrators, the numbers are slightly better,

649
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: but only slightly Around ten percent of illustrators of these

650
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: top two hundred games where white women and around seven

651
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: or women of color. So we've got a long ways

652
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: to go to make things more equal. Seriously. Yeah, um,

653
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 1: So we have a little bit more for you, some

654
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,359
Speaker 1: some advice for making these things more equal. But first

655
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: we have one more ad for our word from our

656
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 1: sponsor m and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. So one

657
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 1: thing that I wanted to ask you about, Nicole was, um,

658
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 1: what what about you? What do you have any projects

659
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 1: on the horizon that you are excited about? Yes? So, uh,

660
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: Anthony and I are working on a game that is

661
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,319
Speaker 1: tentatively at the moment entitled Dance Hall mash Up. It's

662
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: a game about dancing. It's not about dancing, well, it's

663
00:37:54,760 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 1: about dancing quickly. UM. We a friend of our, Jason Tagmier,

664
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: has UM. He has a Patreon for his board game development.

665
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: He basically puts out UM wallet games. They're like small

666
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: games that are eighteen cards. They come in a little wallet.

667
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 1: They're all like uniformly the same size. But he was

668
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 1: also doing something on his Patreon where he was doing

669
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 1: postcard games. So the first year it was Cult Films

670
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: and you had to have the rules on the postcard

671
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 1: and then you would play. The components would be things

672
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 1: that you could easily find in the house. And then

673
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: the next year it was One Hit Wonders, So we

674
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: did one for Spinny right around m HM, and the

675
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 1: one Hit Wonders year was play everything with the postcard.

676
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,479
Speaker 1: So each corner of the postcard was a different dance

677
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 1: move from the Spinny right around video, and one person

678
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: would basically spin the postcard onto the table and then

679
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,800
Speaker 1: whichever corner was facing them, they would yell out that

680
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 1: dance move, and everybody did the dance moves as fast

681
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: as possible and then slap the postcard and the last

682
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: person to slap would be out. It was it was

683
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: a game that was for like a bunch of people,

684
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: and then we were like, you know what, we could

685
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: make this but with lots of dance moves. So yeah,

686
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: we spent an entire weekend just watching YouTube videos about

687
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 1: how to describe how to do dances and then made

688
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: a ton of cards and we pitched it to some

689
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: publishers in November, and we have two publishers who are

690
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 1: really seriously interested in it, so I'm hoping that is

691
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: the next game that we have come out. We've actually,

692
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: uh so my husband was diagnosed with cancer last year,

693
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: so we've had like we had kind of a year

694
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: where we didn't do anything, and I think we're both

695
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 1: feeling the pressure of, you know, we have to get

696
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,959
Speaker 1: back into it. We have to get games out because

697
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 1: we published Resistor and then the next year we published

698
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 1: two games. So we were like, oh, next year we'll

699
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: published three games, and then life was like it like

700
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: I'm sorry to hear that, so thank you. So yeah,

701
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 1: so we're just like we have a ton of prototypes

702
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 1: that you know, we've been shopping around and this is

703
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: where it comes into play about pitching the publishers. When

704
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: we went to packs some plugged in December. You know,

705
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: we had five games, we had five prototypes that we

706
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: were just pitching to any publisher we can get an

707
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,359
Speaker 1: empoyment with. We were just like, hey, we sit down

708
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: with you cool five games, and we had the pitch

709
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: down to like ten minutes. We really here you go

710
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: two minutes a game, so we we have some some

711
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 1: pretty promising leads there. Oh that sounds so fun. Thank you.

712
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 1: I'm a big I love any kind of game that

713
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 1: gets you up and moving, and I love dancing, and

714
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,919
Speaker 1: I'm terrible at it, so this sounds perfect for me. Yeah,

715
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: I also love all those things that I'm also terrible

716
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: at dancing, so I totally get it. Well, keep me

717
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:40,240
Speaker 1: posted about that. Oh absolutely so. For for anyone who's listening,

718
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 1: any any woman who's interested in getting involved in in

719
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 1: the world of designing a tabletop game, UM, do you

720
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 1: have any advice or tips for them? Yeah? Um, for

721
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: there's so many layers to this. Um. If you, I mean,

722
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: if you've already got a game and you want to

723
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: try to, you know, get it played, get get your

724
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: prototype tested. Um. There's something called Unpubed, the Unpublished Game Network.

725
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: It's unpubed dot net UM. If you go there and

726
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: you make an account and you put your games into there,

727
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: you can kind of keep checked. They have events all

728
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: over the world, so they have these things called unpubbed

729
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,879
Speaker 1: minis and basically you go to a local board game

730
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 1: store and if you're you registered for it, you go

731
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: to a local board game store and then you just

732
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 1: show your prototype and and you know, people come play

733
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 1: your prototype, give your feedback. They have feedback forms you

734
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: can even print out. Um. There's also if you're on

735
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: the East coast, there's an event called Metatopia, which is

736
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 1: in North Jersey, and that is literally just four days

737
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: of play testing prototypes and it's very heavily scheduled. If

738
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 1: you you know, say you're like, okay, I want to

739
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: have five play tests of my game, you can actually

740
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: request one play test to just be designers, so then

741
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: you can get really good feedback because it's only designers

742
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: playing your game. There are also, you know, there's there's

743
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 1: all kinds of playtesting communities. We have one in Philadelphia

744
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: that is based on a community in Boston. It's called

745
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: the Gamemaker's Guild and there we're basically we're basically their

746
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: first franchise is what I like to joke. So, so

747
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: we have Gamemaker's Guild Philadelphia, there's one in Connecticut. Um,

748
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: there's also, uh, if you're in you know, the Northwest,

749
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 1: there's play Tests Northwest, which I think is in Seattle. Um.

750
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: Emma Larkins runs a play test group in Seattle. Also,

751
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,440
Speaker 1: um gosh, there's just so there's also like proto Speel,

752
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: which is another thing that's sort of like unpubed. And

753
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 1: then there's you know events like Packs the Penny or

754
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 1: kid Expo. There's there's one that's dedicated solely to board games,

755
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 1: and Unpubbed usually gets a booth at these events, so

756
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 1: you can register for unpubbed at these events, which is

757
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 1: really cool. Um. There's also gen Con and um, I

758
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: think d g G Con. They have this really intense

759
00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: thing that's called publisher speed dating, which is yeah, it's

760
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,919
Speaker 1: as horrifying as it sounds. Um, you have like five

761
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: to ten minutes to pitch your game to a publisher

762
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 1: and then the publishers just switched tables. So um, it's

763
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: really good practice to get your pitch down to you know,

764
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: ten minutes UM. On a on a more granular level,

765
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:21,839
Speaker 1: if you're looking for ways to actually physically make your prototype, UM,

766
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: there's a site called the Game Crafter, and they have

767
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:29,439
Speaker 1: basically everything you could ever need to make a game,

768
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: so you can actually, you know, upload all your art,

769
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: order all the pieces, and then order one single copy

770
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 1: of your game. It won't be cheap, but it'll give

771
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 1: you a really nice looking, professional looking prototype that you

772
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: can then bring to events like this UM and like, honestly,

773
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: if you're a person listening and you're like, oh my god,

774
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: I live in the middle of nowhere, or oh my god,

775
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: I'm way too much of an introvert to try to

776
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,479
Speaker 1: get into this stuff without knowing someone, I tell people

777
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 1: all the time whenever I'm on panels, like please please

778
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: email me, please reach out to me. I'm happy to

779
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 1: like find you someone connect you with someone you know.

780
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't do like mentorships or anything, but

781
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 1: I feel like basically what I'm doing is kind of

782
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: like a mentorship is just not officially called that. UM.

783
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 1: There's also a group called board game Broads on Facebook,

784
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 1: so if you they are actually trying to run a

785
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 1: specific mentorship program, so if people really want to, you know,

786
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 1: have something that is more targeted towards specific help that

787
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: they need, that's a great place to start. Those are

788
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 1: all great resources. Thank you. Are there any um developers

789
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: that are games that you're excited for coming out in

790
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: the future. I made a list of lots of women

791
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 1: in board games, but I don't know of anything that's

792
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: ming out soon. Suzanne Sinsley, who is half of Cardboard Edison,

793
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: She's got a game called Ceylon c E y l

794
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 1: O N that I think premiered at Essen, which is

795
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: a big, huge board game event in Germany. And I

796
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: don't think that one's available state side because my husband

797
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,479
Speaker 1: keeps asking me when we can order it. So that's

798
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: that's one game that we're definitely really really really eager

799
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: to get our hands on other than sale. And I

800
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 1: don't have any specific board games that I'm like super

801
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: hyped to get my hands on. Well you mentioned the list, Yeah,

802
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: I do so. Um. Heather O'Neill and Heather Wilson are

803
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: they're part of Ninth Level Games. Um they have. Ninth

804
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 1: Level Games is probably most famous for Cobal Date My Baby,

805
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: which is a role playing game, but the two Heathers

806
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 1: made a game called Schrodinger's Cats, which is like one

807
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,879
Speaker 1: of my favorite party games of all time. And they're

808
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 1: Heather and Neils working on Pavlov's Dogs, as you can imagine,

809
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:03,839
Speaker 1: which is going to be another game that they're coming

810
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: out with. They also just came out with a game

811
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 1: called Maple Party, which is a super fun like little

812
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 1: party game, co op party game. Bonnie Newbauer is another

813
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: really amazing game designer. She's local to Philadelphia. I don't

814
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: know if she has anything published yet, but I would

815
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,399
Speaker 1: definitely keep an eye out for her because her we've

816
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 1: played so many of her prototypes that are really excellent.

817
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: Mary Martha for Dan, she made a game called The

818
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: Ultimate clap Back, which is also a lot of fun.

819
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,760
Speaker 1: That one was on Kickstarter. UM. Carol Mertz is another

820
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 1: great one. She she made a game called Past the Book,

821
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: which is a game about corporate responsibility, which I pull

822
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,359
Speaker 1: it out sometimes at parties and my friends are like, Nope,

823
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 1: I'm not at work. You can't make me play that.

824
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,919
Speaker 1: I won't play a game about about asking people about

825
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:50,919
Speaker 1: their emails. Um. There's another great game called Someone Has Died,

826
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,439
Speaker 1: which is made by a d Slippeck and Liz Roach.

827
00:46:54,360 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 1: Um Banana Chan makes RPGs and LARPs. She is absolutely incredible. UM.

828
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: And then for artists, Uh, my friend Bridget in Delicado.

829
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: She was co designer of a game called The Plot Thickens,

830
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,919
Speaker 1: which one one of the Hasbro. Hasbro did a bunch

831
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: of game design contests for a few years and um,

832
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: The Plot Thickens won one of those game contests. She

833
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,879
Speaker 1: does graphic design for a e G and Whiz Kids.

834
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 1: So she did art for Dungeon Hustle. UM. I can't

835
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 1: remember any of the other games that she's done art

836
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: for now I feel terrible. UM. And Heather Winter Vaughune

837
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: did art for a game called Beneath Nexus and also

838
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: for the game Kids on Bikes, which is an RPG.

839
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:41,760
Speaker 1: That's that's pretty famous. Um. There's also um Sherry Spiro

840
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,919
Speaker 1: who she's the owner of ad Magic and Breaking Games.

841
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: Ad Magic is one of the biggest board game printers

842
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: in the world and Breaking Games is her publishing arm.

843
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 1: So she is a badass lady. She's really amazing. There's

844
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 1: also I have two friends who are a Kickstarter train,

845
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 1: Garrettano and Anya Combs, who are both just beautiful wonderful people.

846
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: Oh and I also had another name on here UM

847
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: that's Sobel, who does illustrations for so so, so so

848
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 1: many board games that are out there right now, so

849
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: many of the any board games. And her artwork is

850
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: just beautiful. She did herbaceous and I forget what else.

851
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: So everything I just said it sounds like Bolks. I'm like, oh,

852
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: her work is great. And then I'm like, here's a

853
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: single game. I believe you. I believe you, I think

854
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 1: you check out. Yeah, that's one point I would love

855
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: for these episodes, the one that focused on playing and

856
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 1: now this one in development. Um. At one point I

857
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 1: would love for listeners to take away who maybe haven't

858
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 1: had much experience in this world is there's so much

859
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 1: out there. There's so much variety. And I have a

860
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 1: group of friends that used to tell me that they

861
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:59,720
Speaker 1: hated playing tabletop games and they hated a specific type,

862
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,439
Speaker 1: and I've been able to introduce them. They really didn't

863
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: like um competitive games, but I've found co op games

864
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 1: that they love, and now we play board games almost

865
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:12,879
Speaker 1: every time we hang out. So there is a lot

866
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: out there if you don't have if you haven't had

867
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: good experiences. But you've only had a little bit, and

868
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: maybe we've convinced you that you might want to give

869
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 1: it another tribe. There's just so many options. There are

870
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 1: also like beautiful games that they're not necessarily cooperative, and

871
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: they're they're not competitive, they're not cooperative. Like uh m

872
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,800
Speaker 1: Al Larkins, who I mentioned earlier, runs a places commedia

873
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,919
Speaker 1: in Seattle. She made a game I think it's called

874
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 1: and Then We Died and it's a very artistic game

875
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: about like communing with ghosts basically, and you're like like

876
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,399
Speaker 1: putting these cards down and putting words together, and you're

877
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 1: all building a story together, and that's what the plot

878
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 1: Pickens is. Also the plot Pickens is you're all using

879
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 1: keywords and you're each individually making a story, but it

880
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 1: all works together and you get bonus points for like

881
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 1: paying attention to what other people are saying in their

882
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: story and then adding their pieces to your own story.

883
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 1: So it's like, you know, more narrative driven games. And

884
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: there's also games like you know, Fog of Love and

885
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 1: and Then We Held Hands, which are emotional experiences. So

886
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 1: I feel like there's a lot more out there than

887
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: just Risk and Twilight Struggle. Yeah, and this very same

888
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: group of friends that didn't like competitive games. One of

889
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 1: their favorite games is Dixit, which is competitive, but it's

890
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 1: kind of like a key competitive. It's a relax competitive

891
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 1: and it's beautiful. I got my coworkers addicted to telestrations.

892
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, that's a good one. It's hilarious. Yeah. Um.

893
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 1: I like to end episodes like this with a very

894
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 1: simple question, how do you think we could make the

895
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: taibletop gaming world more inclusive, either on the playing side

896
00:50:54,239 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: or development side. I think that, um, you know, it's

897
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 1: for for the development side. The advice that I give

898
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 1: to everyone is if you have an idea, just make it.

899
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: And it's really I know, it's really hard to get

900
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,880
Speaker 1: over that fear, and it's really hard to put yourself

901
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: out there. You know. I I have a lot of

902
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: fear putting myself out there as a game designer and

903
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 1: as a writer and on the thing about the community

904
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 1: of developers is that there are a lot of awesome

905
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 1: people and a lot of people pay it forward because

906
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 1: they wouldn't be here without the help of others. Like

907
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:32,800
Speaker 1: when we got started, you know, I mentioned Jason Tagmire

908
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 1: who does wallet games, and he said, oh, talk to

909
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:37,800
Speaker 1: my friend Christopher Bedell when you go to packs. And

910
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:40,919
Speaker 1: he didn't tell us, you know, talk to my friend

911
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:42,840
Speaker 1: who's the president of the company that made senseil as

912
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: the multiverse. He just said, talked to my friend and

913
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:46,839
Speaker 1: Christopher Badell, and then we met him and we were like, oh,

914
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 1: my god, you're super important. This is intimidating. And he

915
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 1: was so nice to us. He was like, oh, only

916
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 1: have five minutes, talked to us for twenty minutes, gave

917
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: us a bunch of advice, like and and now we're

918
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 1: now we're like friends, you know. And so many people

919
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: were so generous with their time that that's how I

920
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 1: treat people like That's why I run the Gamemaker's Guild.

921
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 1: That's why I you know, try to do as much

922
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: as I can. That's why I tell people like, you know,

923
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: please reach out, because I think that that's what people

924
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: need to put themselves out there creatively. And I think

925
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 1: that goes the same for playing games, because a lot

926
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,760
Speaker 1: of people have that fear, like you said, of playing

927
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 1: competitive games, and also they have a fear of of

928
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,239
Speaker 1: looking stupid. And I think that if people were a

929
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 1: little gentler with how they handle people, it would be

930
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:37,319
Speaker 1: it would be more welcoming. I mean for us, it's

931
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: it's been pretty welcoming, and we've definitely hit some roadbumps.

932
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 1: But I think that it was people's kindness that that helps.

933
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 1: Oh God, here I go again. I'm like, if everybody

934
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 1: would just be more kind Like, Um, it's funny that

935
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,760
Speaker 1: you say that, because I am an extremely competitive person

936
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 1: and I for this. So I have like three groups

937
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: friends I play games with. And for this group of

938
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: friends that didn't like competitive games, I had to learn

939
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:11,359
Speaker 1: to chill out a bit when I play with them,

940
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: and they have to dial it back and that's hard. Yeah,

941
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:18,280
Speaker 1: And it was hard at first, and I still sometimes

942
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 1: find myself getting angry because I just it's really funny.

943
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 1: But I'm like, you guys are not being the right

944
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 1: kind of competitive. But that's my own thing. It's supposed

945
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 1: to be fun for everyone playing, and it is. I

946
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 1: have a good time with him. I just that was

947
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 1: something I had to like look at myself and say, well,

948
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 1: if I want to enjoy this activity with friends of mine,

949
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 1: then I need to modify my behavior a little bit. Um.

950
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 1: So yeah, I would say it's worth looking at your

951
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:52,839
Speaker 1: own playing habits at least in my case, I would

952
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 1: I would argue, you know, if you have a group

953
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 1: of friends that won't play games with you, why is

954
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 1: that right? I think A good think, A good litmus

955
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:06,320
Speaker 1: test for competitiveness is Bonanza. Have you played Bonanza? No?

956
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 1: I haven't. Bonanza is one of the best. Like, we

957
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 1: love Bonanza and we hate the art. We love it

958
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: so much and hate the art so much that Anthony

959
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 1: one year, for an anniversary gift, made me a copy

960
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 1: of the game on Gamecraft with cat illustrations. He replaced

961
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 1: all of the beans in this bean farming game with

962
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 1: adorable cats. He got like the ratio right, He did

963
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: everything and just printed so that we would play it more.

964
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 1: But Bonanza is really cutthroat, and it's like it's really

965
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:42,839
Speaker 1: about like screwing other people over and like you can

966
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: kind of like make alliances, but like you don't have

967
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 1: to honor them at all. And like if you play

968
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 1: with a group of people who are all super nice

969
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 1: to each other and they're like giving each other cards

970
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: and being really kind to each other, like Anthony can't

971
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 1: stand it. Anthony's like, y'all are playing this game wrong.

972
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:01,719
Speaker 1: So it's funny. And sometimes I'll play with people who

973
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 1: are who are like really friendly to each other, and

974
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: those are the kind of people that you don't want

975
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 1: to play competitive games or you want to play like

976
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: a cooperative game with. But then I'll play it with

977
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 1: Anthony and his friends and they'll be like, you know,

978
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:16,839
Speaker 1: I would stab you for a cocoa bean right now,

979
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 1: and I'm like, cool, that's we have a really good friendship.

980
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,879
Speaker 1: I love this. So it is like it's it's reading

981
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:24,239
Speaker 1: the room, it's reading the people that you're with, and

982
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 1: it's and and like you said before, there's just so

983
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 1: there's such a there's so much rich diversity in mechanics

984
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 1: now that you don't need to play a game that's

985
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 1: gonna end friendships. Yes, yes, I would advise against it.

986
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 1: And I do think that that that's a great point

987
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 1: reading the room and also just the number one one

988
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:48,399
Speaker 1: of the rules of the Internet. It's don't be a jerk,

989
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 1: like I'm competitive, but I'm nice about it, or at

990
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 1: least like there are certain people that are competitive and

991
00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 1: so mean that I won't play with them, right, And

992
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 1: those are like the sexist misogynists that I was afraid

993
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 1: existed in this like D and D world that I

994
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 1: didn't go to Um, that's one thing that's that's nobody's

995
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 1: having fun except them, and maybe they're like specific group

996
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,800
Speaker 1: of friends. But UM, I do think that there is

997
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 1: a vast array of game types and mechanics, like you

998
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 1: were saying, so that you can find a game for

999
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:28,359
Speaker 1: you and your group, your specific group you're playing with. Yeah,

1000
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,359
Speaker 1: my husband will tell you that I'm salty when I lose,

1001
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: and that's that's true. There there are definitely times when

1002
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:38,719
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm gonna flip this table. Oh we have

1003
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 1: Like there was one session of dn D that will

1004
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 1: not we won't speak about it. It's great. I love it,

1005
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: oh man. In our five game that was like recorded

1006
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 1: on YouTube, like our Chaos Sorcerer, like that the bar

1007
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: on fire and almost killed me and I was like, yo, Ryan,

1008
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:00,839
Speaker 1: real life, I will actually kill you in real life

1009
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 1: and view that again, like don't do that again. And

1010
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:05,359
Speaker 1: like Anthony was like, you do not want to read

1011
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 1: the comments on that episode because people got real mad

1012
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,439
Speaker 1: at you. And I was like he almost killed me. Yeah,

1013
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:12,640
Speaker 1: but come on, but yeah I got I got, I

1014
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 1: get extra salty. We don't talk about that one. It's

1015
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 1: funny how how invested in really good. Yes, well, thank

1016
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. This has been so lovely. Yeah,

1017
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me. This is great.

1018
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 1: Where can people find you? So? Um on Twitter? Um,

1019
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 1: I'm CB four on Instagram, it's the whole thing. It's

1020
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 1: Cardboard Fortress Games at Instagram. And seriously, I I really

1021
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 1: meant it about people if they wanted to reach out,

1022
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:48,520
Speaker 1: I'm my email addresses Cardboard Fortress Games at gmail dot com.

1023
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 1: If you want to talk about you know, how to

1024
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 1: go to events, how to you know? Even things like help,

1025
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 1: how do I do a kickstarter? How do I get

1026
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 1: in touch with you know, the press? How do I

1027
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 1: do this? If I don't know the answer to your question,

1028
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 1: there's a really good chance that I know a person

1029
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 1: who has the answer to your question. Yeah, that is

1030
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 1: so valuable. So anyone listening that's interested, I would take

1031
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:18,920
Speaker 1: Nicole up on that. And in the meantime, if if

1032
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:23,280
Speaker 1: any of you listening are working on games yourself, we

1033
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 1: would love to hear about it. You can email us

1034
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 1: at mom stuff at how stuff works dot com, and

1035
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:31,040
Speaker 1: you can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast

1036
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 1: and on Instagram at stuff I've Never told you. Thanks

1037
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 1: as always to our producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to

1038
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 1: you for listening.