1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Bridget and this is Emily, and you're 2 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 1: listening the stuff Mom never told you. And today trigger warning, 3 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: we're talking about the me too campaign and sexual fault. 4 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: So that's something that's tough for you. Just know that's 5 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: this episode is all about again again a bird episode 6 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: around me too and what feels like a reckoning for 7 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: powerful men who are creeps. And you know what, I 8 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: love today's episode because instead of chronicling all the men 9 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: who have been outed as perverts and creeps and who 10 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: have hopefully gone down in flames, today is about positive, proactive, 11 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: systemic change that is being advocated for on behalf of 12 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: women from all walks of life. And so today while 13 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: we are talking about meets you again, this is a 14 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: different take on it and it really got me excited 15 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: about the potential for to really be a time of 16 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: proactive advocacy and change on this issue. Totally. So just 17 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: two levels that where we're at in terms of me too. 18 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: A few new creeps have been outed. This is always 19 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: going to be an abbreviated list because the list is 20 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: ever growing. Um you may have seen some new industries 21 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: on that list. Mario Batali, the World Round Chef, was 22 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: outed as a creep and in his email about said allegations, 23 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: what else other than an apology? What else did he include? 24 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: Did a recipe that was like side by side with 25 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: his assault apology? Yeah? Basically he said, listen, these allegations happen. 26 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm stepping down. Ps. If you want a 27 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: recipe for cinnamon rolls made from pizza dough, here's a 28 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: crowd pleaser. I didn't think it could get any better 29 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: than Louis Kay's not apology, but that really takes the 30 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: cake when takes the cinnamon rolls. Yeah. Alongside Batallity, we 31 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: had Danny Masterson, who was the guy from that DevD show. 32 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: Women have long accused him of rape and Netflix just 33 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: recently announced that he would be off the show The Ranch. 34 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 1: This has kind of been a long time coming for him. 35 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:16,799 Speaker 1: I know that there have been allegations for a long 36 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: time and people really holding Netflix's feet to the fire 37 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: on accountability, so this is would have been a long 38 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: time coming. In addition to that, in the politics world, 39 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: John Conyers also taken down by these allegations, and his 40 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: office was the first office that I interned in as 41 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: a young intern on the House Judiciary committee. I lasted 42 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: two weeks. The hill was not for me. But yeah, 43 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 1: I mean, very previously well respected, renowned advocate, civil rights leader, 44 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: uh Rep. John Connor's going down, and he did not 45 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 1: go down without a fight. He did not another sort 46 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: of update to the initial person who seemed to sort 47 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: of trigger all of this. Actress Selma Hiak, on December 48 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 1: twelve wrote a really powerful and compelling and in The 49 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: New York Times that her relationship with Harvey Weinstein and 50 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: really how this man had controlled her for a very 51 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: long time. She described desperately wanting to produce a film 52 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: that the Mexican muralist frieda Calo, and being so delighted 53 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: when Weinstein became attached to the project, but later he 54 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: began propositioning her. She writes, little did I know it 55 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: would be my turn to say no, not to opening 56 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: the door to him at all hours of the night, 57 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: hotel after hotel, location after location where he would show 58 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: up unexpectedly, including one location during a movie where he 59 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: wasn't even involved with no, to me taking a shower 60 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: with him. The range of his persuasion tactics went from 61 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: sweet talking to me that one time when in an 62 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: attack of theory. He said these terrifying words, I will 63 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: kill you. Don't think I can't. It's pretty nauseating. She 64 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: goes on to talk about how he almost stripped her 65 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: from the Freedom project that she had been so excited 66 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: to work on, and the only way that she could 67 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: get him to not do that was by agreeing to 68 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: film a full frontal nude scene with another woman, which 69 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: is so creepy and so gross and so indicative of 70 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: the kind of like limitless power that this man wielded 71 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: over women in Hollywood. And it was brave of her, 72 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: some might even say unnecessary to come out with such 73 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: a powerful, compelling, vulnerable peace, even after he had already 74 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: been taken down in a lot of ways. You know, 75 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: she didn't have to do that, and to me, that 76 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: speaks even further to her character of wanting to make 77 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:34,919 Speaker 1: sure that, you know, despite whatever personal reputation hits she 78 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: might take, she wanted to add her voice to the 79 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 1: chorus of women asking for justice and retribution. And I 80 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: think it's indicative of Hollywood women really leading this conversation, 81 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: which is an uncomfortable position because we know it's not 82 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: Hollywood women alone who have to deal with sexual assault 83 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: predatory bosses, power being wielded over your own body. And 84 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: yet they have taken the mantle of leadership in terms 85 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: of using their influence, using their platforms, and now using 86 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: their financial privilege to bridge that divide between women with 87 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: extreme financial privilege facing sexual assault in their workplaces and 88 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: women who are working class and dealing with the same 89 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,599 Speaker 1: kind of bullsh that we have been far too many 90 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: cases all dealt with exactly. On January one of this 91 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: new year, a group of prominent women in the entertainment 92 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: industry launched times up, an initiative to combat sexual misconduct 93 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: not just in Hollywood but in other industries. To these 94 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: three hundred actresses, agents, writers, directors, producers, and entertainment executives 95 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 1: really are getting together this network where they can say, hey, 96 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: our industry has this problem. We want to focus on it, 97 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: but we want to help other women who might not 98 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: have our access, our privilege, our power, our money. We 99 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: want to make sure those women are covered to exactly. So, 100 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: they've got an array of initiatives that are part of 101 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 1: the hashtag times up effort that really is setting out 102 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: to fight systemic sexual harassment in Hollywood and in blue 103 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: collar workplaces. Nationwide. Their website Times up now dot Com 104 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: describes it as a movement powered by women that addresses 105 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: systemic inequality and injustice in the workplace that it's kept 106 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 1: under represented groups from reaching their full potential. They're going 107 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: to partner with leading advocates for equality and safety to 108 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: improve laws, employment agreements, and corporate policies. And finally, and 109 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: arguably most importantly, they're aiming to enable more women and 110 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: men to access legal resources to hold wrongdoers accountable. This 111 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: movement was announced January first with an in passionate pledge 112 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: with support for working class women in an open letter 113 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: signed by hundreds of women in show business, many of 114 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: them you know, Hollywood A listers. The letter also ran 115 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: as a full page ad in both The New York 116 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: Times and Opinion, a Spanish language newsletter. And so we're 117 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: talking folks like Shonda Rhymes, like Reese Withers, like Meryl Streep. 118 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 1: Not only did they all sign onto this impassioned letter, 119 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: but they also want other A listers to get involved. 120 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: They're calling for all these famous Hollywood elite to all 121 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: wear black to the Golden Globes to symbolize their commitment 122 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: to combating sexual harassment and all its forms across industries. 123 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: And our favorite part of this initiative is that it 124 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: explicitly includes marginalized women at the forefront. So right now, 125 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: we know that in the wake of the Me Too movement, 126 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: a lot of the critiques that have been levied their 127 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: way have to do with the fact that these are 128 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: centered on Hollywood A listers, Hollywood A listeners who were 129 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: still victimized and fearful of of what they had to 130 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: lose in speaking out, but still women with a lot 131 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: more privilege going for them than the average blue collar worker. 132 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: Attorney Tina Chen, who was the former assistant to President 133 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: Barack Obama and chief of staff for First Lady Michelle Obama, 134 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: is spearheading the Times Up Legal Defense Fund, which is 135 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,239 Speaker 1: administered by it's a partnership with really the National Women's 136 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: Law Centers Legal Network for Gender Equity, and that's why 137 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: we are so excited to dive more into how important 138 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: this initiative is at making legal resources available to women 139 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: from all walks of life who needs support in speaking 140 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: out against cultures of assault and harassment at work. We're 141 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: gonna dive more into that after this quick break, and 142 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: we're back and we are so thrilled to be joined 143 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 1: today by the National Women's Law Centers. Sunu Chandi, the 144 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: National Women's Law Center Legal Director. Sunu joins the National 145 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: Women's Law Center from the Civil Rights Division of h 146 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: S and the E E O C before that, which 147 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: if you listen to the show, you know we talk 148 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: about a lot. She's an expert on legal issues facing 149 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: women in the workplace, including sexual harassment. She's been an 150 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: integral part of getting the legal network for gender equity 151 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: off the ground. Thank you so much for joining us today. 152 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I think it's such an 153 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: exciting time to look back at the me too momentum, 154 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: and let's talk about times up. Let's talk about this 155 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: movement to be proactive about providing solutions on a systemic 156 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 1: level so that we don't have to watch the headlines 157 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: every single week of who's being called out as a perpet. Now, 158 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: I think this is a much more positive framing of 159 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: what are we doing to curb this systemic problem? So 160 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: what is Time's Up all about? Okay, so we are 161 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: really excited that, um, a group of celebrities in Hollywood 162 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: decided to pool their funds and look at how they 163 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: can financially support legally fighting back by low age women 164 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: and women across a number of workplaces who are facing 165 00:09:54,120 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: sexual harassment and retaliation in connection with harassment. So what 166 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: that means is the Legal Network for Gender Equity, which 167 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: the National Women's Lost Center launched in October, has additional 168 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: support um to get more lawyers to take on these cases. So, 169 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: as you may know, to bring litigation can often be expensive, 170 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: both for attorney time and also all the different pieces 171 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: that go into litigation such as court fees, paying for depositions, 172 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,839 Speaker 1: or the various steps that happened before a trial. And 173 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: when a lawyer takes a case, you're not sure if 174 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: it's a case that will be maybe settled or resolved 175 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:36,320 Speaker 1: within a few weeks or months, or a case that 176 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: could take a few years. And so it's a financially 177 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 1: risky for lawyers to take on sexual harassment cases or 178 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 1: any sort of workplace civil rights cases. So what the 179 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: times that fund is is these Hollywood celebrities have come 180 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: together and pulled significant amounts of money so that women 181 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: in all different workplaces can have more access to fighting 182 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: back against sexual harassment. On the National Women's Law Center's website, UM. 183 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: There's a place to sign up as lawyers who want 184 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: to take part in this work, and also for individuals 185 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: who are seeking legal help, they can also sign up 186 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: and they'll receive the names of about three lawyers and 187 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 1: then they can follow up to contact them for a 188 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: free initial consultation, and then what the fund will be 189 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 1: used to is to support the cases that are actually 190 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: taken up UM to go forward through litigation. So ultimately, 191 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: this is a way that women in low wage workplaces 192 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: will have some financial and legal support in fighting back 193 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: against sex harassment. I think that's so so critical to 194 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: what you're doing. I know one of the biggest criticisms 195 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: folks made with me Too was that it seemed to 196 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: center Hollywood A listers who you think might already be 197 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: coming from a place of privilege, when we know sexual 198 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: harassment and sexual misconduct impacts all of us, whether you're privileged, 199 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: whether you're marginalized. In fact, if you're a marginalized person, 200 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: you probably more are likely to be facing these issues. 201 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: And so you know, you had these women who are 202 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: not Hollywood A listers, like the seven thousand female farm 203 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: workers who penned an open letter about harassment in November 204 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 1: or these women who worked for Ford Motor Company on 205 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: the floor at these car plants who also spoke up 206 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: about harassment. I love that what you're doing with Time's 207 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: Up is really centering all different kinds of women's experiences 208 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: and giving all of these different kinds of women from 209 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: different backgrounds access to legal services so they can really 210 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: speak up and get justice. So and it really just 211 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: shows that this movement is not about just Hollywood A listers. 212 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: It's about all of us. That's exactly right. And you know, 213 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:44,079 Speaker 1: on one level, UM individuals of all genders and women 214 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: of course that fails face sexual harassments across industry, so 215 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: from the financial industry, the tech industry, actresses, and also 216 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: the group that this fund is supposed to support, which 217 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,959 Speaker 1: is hotel workers, restaurant workers, and workers in low wage 218 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: work who are even more unable to bring these cases forward, 219 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: both because maybe they don't know who to contact, who 220 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: to trust, and also this barrier of having to pay 221 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: for litigation. So this um legal network for gender equity 222 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 1: with times Up is a really wonderful pairing because we 223 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 1: have attorneys who have said we want to take on 224 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: sexual harassment cases, and we also have some funds to 225 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: help support those cases. So both of these are really 226 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: critical and needed by women in low wage work who 227 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: are facing sexual harassment or retaliation. Yeah, thirteen million dollars 228 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: in funds, which is no small achievement already, which is 229 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: really something to be proud of and is going to 230 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: help make the traditional systems of labor power something that's 231 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: now accessible to low wage workers. And that's that's my 232 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: question in all of this, especially when I was listening 233 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: to the Daily The New York Times podcast about the 234 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: Ford Motor Company and the harassment that women continued to 235 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: face decades after litigation was brought against the company. What 236 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: is the role for labor in this movement? Because we're 237 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: we're big labor activists here, Bridge and I we sort 238 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: of came up in the labor movement, and yet we're 239 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: also millennials who don't expect to ever have a pension 240 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: or you know, we always turned to the e o 241 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: C because job site committees seem to be one alternative 242 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: to what used to be a traditional labor infrastructure that 243 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: could help protect women in this case. So where do 244 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: you see this solution fitting in and is it filling 245 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: a gap? As it feeling a void that was once 246 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: occupied by a stronger labor movement. Yeah. I mean it's 247 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: interesting because we definitely see um labor unions as an 248 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: important partner. I mean we can look and see that 249 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: there are more sort of women and people of color 250 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: are are largely reflected, and especially public sector unions, and 251 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: there are issues that have come up where we have 252 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: worked with unions to take up issues of discrimination. I 253 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: think this is an area where workers centers, labor unions, 254 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: individual workers all need to take this up. It's going 255 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: to take all of us. There are definitely moments in 256 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: time where labor unions have taken up um sort of 257 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: pay equity or discrimination or harassment faced by people of color, 258 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: or have provided benefits to LGBT workers, and have done 259 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: things to support sort of progressive movements and causes. So 260 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: I think that labor unions are definitely part of the 261 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: solution and need to be challenged to continue to be 262 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: part of the solution. Also, there are many workers centers 263 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: who serve this role too, but there are also many 264 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: many workplaces where there aren't unions and individual workers are 265 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: sort of feel alone in this taking up the mantle, 266 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: and so that I think is a time when having 267 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: a lawyer advocate to guide you and advise you is 268 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: even more critical. And you know, anyone can contact the 269 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: legal network, whether that person has a union there or not. 270 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: I think if there's a union there, or if there's 271 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: some state protections against termination, that gives individuals that much 272 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: more strength in coming forward to file any sort of 273 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: claim or take part in any sort of sexual harassment complaint, 274 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: because without the union there, or without other local civil 275 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: rights protections or labor protections, it's a risk. It's always 276 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: a risk, and that's why retaliation is also part of 277 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: what we're looking at in sexual harassment cases. But also 278 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: anything negative that happens to a worker for coming forward 279 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: counts could count as retaliation, and the standard is quite broad. Um, 280 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: so it doesn't have to be a termination. It could 281 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: be you're losing clients, or losing hours, or losing shifts. 282 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: Any of those things could be seen as retaliation were 283 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: coming forward. Yeah, I'm just really curious what has retaliation 284 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: looked like because I think of retaliation as you lost 285 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: your job, But you just mentioned some things that I'd 286 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: never even occurred to me. Losing clients, getting bad mouthed 287 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: around town, what kind of forms can retaliation take in 288 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 1: a sexual harassment situation? And you know what to add 289 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: to that? Can we back up for one second and 290 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: explain why is that legally important? So? How are workers 291 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: protected from retaliation? What are the kinds of punitive um 292 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,919 Speaker 1: responses that you can take for companies who are penalizing 293 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: women who are speaking out and making their voices heard 294 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: through legal action. Sure, so retaliation can take many, many forms, 295 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:48,479 Speaker 1: and fortunately the law has evolved to recognize that, and 296 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court has recognized that what retaliation means in 297 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: each workplace depends on what's valued in that workplace. So 298 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: for many years at EO c A litigated a case 299 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: um in the fast food industry and what what retaliation 300 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,439 Speaker 1: looked like in that industry was you always had to 301 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: clean the bathroom. In another workplace, retaliation could be you 302 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 1: don't get invited to launch with a client. So it 303 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,919 Speaker 1: could be anything that sort of significantly impacts you in 304 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 1: the workplace. It could also be things beyond the workplace. 305 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: We there's also a trend where individuals are sued and 306 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: deformation claims are brought against individuals after they bring a 307 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: sexual harassment case. That's could that could be a form 308 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: of retaliation, so we're clear it's illegal. I can strengthen 309 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: your case as someone who's been harassed in the workplace 310 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: if you can show evidence that you've been retaliated against 311 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: because you've thought justice is that right? Absolutely? So what 312 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 1: you need to do to have a retaliation claim, which 313 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: um interestingly, it's often easier to prove because of the timing. 314 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 1: So what retaliation claim looks like is you take a 315 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: protected activity, which could be going to hr it could 316 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: be going to E, O C or another agency. It 317 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: could be filing a case in court, but it doesn't 318 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: have to be anything that formal. It could be standing 319 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: up and bringing an internal complaint. You've done something to 320 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: assert your rights under the law right and in response 321 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 1: that the employer has noticed of that and take some 322 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: negative action against you. It's quite a simple complaint because 323 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: you just have to show a protected activity or opposing 324 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: discrimination in some way, the employer has noticed that you 325 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: took that action and does something sort of significant that's 326 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 1: negative against you. Something I'm really struck by in this 327 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: program is the fact that we had a Walmart employee 328 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,719 Speaker 1: on the show a couple of months back, and one 329 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: of the things that she talked about was that as 330 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: low wage workers, when you don't have a union, you 331 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 1: can often feel very alone when you're embarking on whether 332 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: it's a labor dispute, a theirpy dispute, a sexual Hara 333 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: Smith dispute, any of those things. And so that they've 334 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: kind of found these ways around them. They have these 335 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: apps where they can get information about labor laws and 336 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: fair fair pay practices, so that if something happens on 337 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: the job, they don't feel alone. And so and this 338 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: would have struck by the idea that these kind of 339 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: initiatives are making people who otherwise might feel alone, vulnerable, 340 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: powerless marginalized, giving them access to something that's like a network. 341 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 1: If you were going through something like this, you might 342 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,479 Speaker 1: not have the first idea about who to contact, let 343 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: alone how to go through this, and you feel like 344 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 1: you're doing it alone, and that it's so powerful to 345 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: give people just even that feeling of a community of 346 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: people who have your back and can guide you through 347 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: what probably could be a really scary and intense process. 348 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. I mean, many of us who are 349 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 1: employment or civil rights lawyers know that we frequently get 350 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 1: calls from friends friends of friends, relatives, etcetera for this 351 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: very information. So most of us have this sort of 352 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: here's the three firms in New York, or here's the 353 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: three firms in DC. That this is basically bringing this 354 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: to scale where you don't have to have a friend 355 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 1: or a relative who knows a lawyer. You can actually 356 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: sign up on this and get best information, and it 357 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: makes it more readily available to a larger group of 358 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: women and and other individuals. How many times have we 359 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,199 Speaker 1: seen women helping other women and these kinds of like 360 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: whisper networks or campaigns where it's like, oh, I have 361 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: a friend of a friend who can help you, or 362 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: like here's a number from my neighbor who helps me, 363 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: and you're in the same jam that I was in. 364 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 1: I love the idea of bringing that to scale, like 365 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: you said, and having it be something that we just 366 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 1: have access to. It doesn't have to be a friend 367 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: of a friend slipping you with a business card or 368 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: a phone number or a name of someone who can 369 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: get you some help. I love how it's in this case, 370 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: it's Reese Witherspoon helping you out. It's Shannon Rhymes, it's 371 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: Meryl Streep, Steven Spielberg, these major donors who are in 372 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: the Hollywood activist elite, who have already lended their platforms 373 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: and now are opening up their wallets to make sure 374 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: that you don't need to be the kind of uh 375 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: in the kind of privileged position of having a friend 376 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: who is a lawyer or knowing someone in your family 377 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: who's a lawyer, and instead making it successibul to working 378 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: class women. Really bridges that divide that the Me Too 379 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: movement could have lent itself to, which is that divide 380 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: in class experience of the same kind of harassment, which 381 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: is in fact quite universal. And that's just it. I 382 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: think that it took this moment for these Hollywood celebrities 383 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: to see when they faced this issue, they were scared 384 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: to come forward. Despite their privilege, their wealth, and their 385 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: access to resources, they were still scared to come forward 386 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: in many instances. How much more scary is it for 387 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: someone without those marks of privilege. Absolutely, And I want 388 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: to talk also about one of the common practic usays 389 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: that we've seen employers put into place that can make 390 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: it even scarier these days, which are non disclosure agreements. 391 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: After this quick break and a word from our sponsors, 392 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: will be right back after this, and we are back 393 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 1: and we are speaking with Suonu Chandy, the National Women's 394 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: Law Centers Legal Director, all about this new initiative in 395 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: response to the Meat Too movement launched just at the 396 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: start of this brand new year. The Time's Up Legal 397 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: Defense Fund. Thank you so much for being here soon 398 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: you Sure so. We were at the break talking a 399 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: little bit about some of the systematic ways in which 400 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: some employers make it even scarier to make your voice heard, 401 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: and we alluded to this in the first episode we 402 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: covered here on the Meat Too movement at stuff Mom 403 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: Never told You, And that is this idea of non 404 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: disclosure agreements being something a lot of employers are having 405 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: new higher sign as a condition of getting the job. 406 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: Can you tell us about what that practice is and 407 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 1: why it can be so problematic and where Times Up 408 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: really stands on that issue. Sure so. The National Women's 409 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,959 Speaker 1: Law Center supports movements to increase transparency about issues of 410 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: sexual harassment as they come up in a workplace, so 411 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: that individuals facing the circumstances find each other and fight 412 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: back together. So we would oppose sort of employment agreements 413 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 1: that upfront require employees to sign away their rights to 414 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: bring civil rights claims, or are forced to arbitrate these 415 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: sorts of claims, or are forced to keep silent about 416 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: issues that may come up in the workplace. So upfront 417 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: sort of requiring nondisclosure as a part of taking a 418 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: job is not something that we would support, and we 419 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 1: would support greater transparency in these matters. Honestly, I have 420 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: found that in looking into a lot of these cases, 421 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: transparency is really the name of the game. That you know, 422 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 1: having that ability to you know, tell your story or 423 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,239 Speaker 1: whatever it is need to do is important, and that 424 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: you it's something that you shouldn't just give away, you know, 425 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: without thinking about it. That's right, And I think that 426 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 1: what gets tricky is that sometimes it says to be 427 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: balanced at the time of a settlement, and we want 428 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: to make sure that the power is always in the 429 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: hands of the individual who went through the sexual harassment. 430 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: And perhaps that's something that could be negotiated at the 431 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: time of a resolution. But this is not something UM 432 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,360 Speaker 1: that we would support employers requiring workers to sign at 433 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: the start of employment. That's a really important point. I'm 434 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: glad that you added that. UM kind of switching gears 435 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 1: a little bit I'm sure that some of our listeners 436 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 1: out there or are lawyers and are thinking, Gee, I 437 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: am fired up, I am piste off, I want to 438 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 1: get involved. How can they do that? How can they 439 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: get involved? That would be wonderful. We are excited to 440 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 1: welcome more lawyers as part of the Legal Network for 441 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 1: Gender Equity. And if you go to the National Women's 442 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: Law Center website, you will see a page for the 443 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 1: Legal Network for Gender Equity, and there's a box for attorneys, 444 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: and there's a form that you fill out. You can 445 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: provide your information, your bar membership, and which areas that 446 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,360 Speaker 1: you are interested in, and then you'll be on our 447 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: list and we will give your name to individuals who 448 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: are looking for help with sex discrimination cases. So please 449 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,919 Speaker 1: please do sign up on our website. Awesome. I'm so 450 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: glad that you mentioned that. I have one last kind 451 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: of curveball question for you. I hope it's okay. I 452 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: noticed that you have an m f a in creative 453 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: writing and quite an extensive background in poetry. Have you 454 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: found that to be something that's been useful in this 455 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: awesome work for social change that you've been fighting for 456 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: as a lawyer. Oh? I love that question. Because it's 457 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: really all one vision. I'm lucky enough to be on 458 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 1: the board of an organization called Split This Rock, and 459 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 1: I encourage you to look look them up. That's a 460 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: separate from my work at the Nash Woman's Law Center, 461 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: of course, and it's a social justice poetry organization. And 462 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: for me, fighting back in terms of the culture change, 463 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 1: in terms of bringing forward everyone's voice that's missing from 464 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 1: society is something that poetry does and also something that 465 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,959 Speaker 1: the law does. Can I ask you to share with 466 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: us a little bit of that poem or that poem 467 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: altogether if you've got it handy um. Sure. This poem 468 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,400 Speaker 1: is called a good Job for sk dedicated to Samara 469 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 1: and her dad for fighting back in My father gave 470 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: me some good advice, she said, as we were chatting 471 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: during the break where we sat preparing her to take 472 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: the stand SK with her head covering and green daily 473 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: wear slim our commies. She continued, He told me, if 474 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: I study hard from my g E. D and get 475 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 1: into college and do well, then I can get a 476 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: good job, and in a good job, things like this 477 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: don't happen to girls. I can get a job where 478 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: men don't grab girls and try to kiss them in 479 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: the basement of the store. Upon hearing this, my eyes 480 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: felt sad, and my mind was unsure whether to break 481 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 1: this girl's delusion, whether to tell her that men try 482 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 1: to grab and kiss women in all kinds of good jobs. 483 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: Women in million dollar jobs speak to me about presidents 484 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 1: of companies grabbing them and worse. I was unsure whether 485 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: to explain that men in corporate positions think themselves even 486 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 1: more powerful than men who are supervisors of six little stores. 487 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: How to explain the complexities of human resources policies and 488 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: the legal ramifications of not having any Yes, maybe in 489 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: corporate jobs they have pieces of paper explaining sexual harassment, 490 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: but people still come to us about men grabbing them 491 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: and kissing them, no matter how much money they make 492 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: in their good jobs. Instead, I told her simply, yeah, 493 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: and some offices is better than others, and in some 494 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: offices it's better than in the little stores. And you 495 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: should study hard for your g e d. And go 496 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: to college, and you should get a good job. We 497 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,719 Speaker 1: continue to prepare her testimony about how many times her 498 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: manager said I love you, and how many times he 499 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: said you have to go out with me or I'll 500 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: fire you. She told him, you know we're both Muslims. 501 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: You know this is wrong in our culture. Please stop it. 502 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: You know this is wrong. We went over her testimony 503 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: of how many times he touched her shoulders, how many 504 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: times he grabbed her hands, how many times he tried 505 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: to grab her waist in the basement, and how many 506 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: times he tried to kiss her. We prepared her testimony 507 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: as he dreamed of a better job, and I never 508 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: told her. I never said I am so sorry, darling, 509 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: to inform you that your lovely father is wrong. Studying 510 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: hard will not make the difference. Going to college will 511 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: not save you. A good job cannot protect you. These 512 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: evil men who are usually protected by the dead silence 513 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: in our communities, but not this time. By the time 514 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: this is over, these six stores will learn something about 515 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: sexual harassment and will pay a monetary settlement to you. 516 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: An uncle manager man will get some training and some counseling, 517 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: and we will carry forward a small hope that this 518 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,719 Speaker 1: will be his last victim, so that any job, in 519 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: any job, good or bad, more of us might be safe. 520 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that was such an incredible combinations that 521 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: your strength, that was beautiful. Thank you. I mean I 522 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: have chills. It's exactly what you spoke to, that intersection 523 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: of where HR policy, law, poetry and culture kind of 524 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: all come to a head, and you just you just 525 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: captured that in such a powerful, powerful way. Um, that 526 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: was really beautiful. I really feel so blessed that you 527 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: shared that with us and our listeners. Now you have 528 00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: me on a rule. I have a very short pull 529 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:05,719 Speaker 1: on the thing. Another job, awesome, Let's do it okay. 530 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: Holiday party two thousand nine, lovely restaurant basement, holiday lunch 531 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: with colleagues, federal government workers, pay for ourselves, pasta salmon 532 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: chocolate cake. I stare down at my ten year certificate 533 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: and pin my hopes on some other future civil rights 534 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: advocacy and pensions. Delightful, but still former director walks by 535 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: and says to soul male attorneys sitting with us, three, 536 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: not once, but twice. You got yourself three pretty ladies 537 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: there with you. You got yourself three whole ladies to yourself. 538 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: How is it, guy talk? If we are right here, 539 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: smart and invisible the first time, quiet the second, I 540 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: say to the new male colleague, laughing, leave it to 541 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: him to be consistently inappropriate sports talk. To begin every 542 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: staff meeting is one thing, but seeing three quote unquote 543 00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: lady senior trial attorneys as only ladies as accessories another altogether. 544 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: Even I can laugh at holiday jokes, but later just 545 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: check who gets promoted. Laughing while cringing among smart, sexist, 546 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: once handsome men is an all females job descriptions. If 547 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: you are lucky, that is the extent of it. Damn 548 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: you are. First of all, you have a gift so 549 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 1: good at poems, oh man. But again it's it's this 550 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: powerful medium where you can tell these stories and I 551 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: don't think there's a woman working that would hear that 552 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: poem and not identify with it. Where being like with 553 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: an episode all around sexism and sexual harassment in the 554 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: technology sector, and they came up so often was this 555 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: idea that as women, it's not on our resume. But 556 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: knowing how to laugh off a sexual harass something that's 557 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: sexual harassid flirtation, knowing how to mitigate a sexual harassers 558 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: experiences so that you don't get fired or retaliated against 559 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: where you giggle and you don't get you know, your 560 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: job is not gonna be on the line. That sort 561 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: of a burden that for too long we've all had 562 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: to carry and then we've all had to sort of 563 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: have this on this untold, unwritten thing in our job 564 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,719 Speaker 1: descriptions if we want to be successful. And it gets 565 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 1: even more difficult because part of the standard, the legal 566 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: standard for sexual harassment, is showing that the behavior is unwelcome. 567 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,959 Speaker 1: So and we know that likability matters in the workplace. 568 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: So navigating that is like tap dancing on a tight rope. 569 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: You can't It's hard to win, that's right. It's very 570 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: much a rock at a hard place because if you 571 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 1: don't say stop, don't do this, this is bothering me, 572 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: you run the risk of someone saying, oh, she was laughing, 573 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: was no big deal, like she was joking around too, right. 574 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: But if you do a stop, this is bothering me. 575 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: This is not okay. All of a sudden, you are 576 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 1: at risk for retaliation. You're not playing along. God forbid. 577 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: You should offend right bruce someone's ego to where I 578 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: have to ask, where can folks learn more about Split 579 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: This Rock? So? Split This Rock is a wonderful social 580 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 1: justice poetry organization. We are celebrating our tenth anniversary and 581 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: on the board and you can go to Split this 582 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 1: rock dot org. And I also really want to highlight 583 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: the fact that we have a festival every two years 584 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: and it's coming up soon April nineteen to twenty one 585 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 1: here in Washington, d C. And people come from around 586 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: the country and many sort of really notable social justice 587 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: poets come from around the country, and it's not to 588 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: be missed, and there's a sliding scale of costs to 589 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: a tenth and it's a three day festival, So definitely 590 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 1: encourage everyone to check it out at split the is 591 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: rock dot org. Well, thank you so so much for 592 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: joining us and telling us all about the amazing work 593 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: that you're doing with the National Women's Law Center and 594 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: Time's Up, and for blessing our earbuds with your gift 595 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: of poetry. Well that was a surprise question, but thanks 596 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 1: for oportunity to go in that direction too. As I said, 597 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,800 Speaker 1: I think getting our stories out there and fighting back 598 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 1: takes a lot of different avenues, and the law is 599 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: definitely one and poetry is another. So thanks for talking 600 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: to me about both of them. That was so incredible. 601 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 1: Uh did not see getting a couple of poems in 602 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: this one, but you never know where these conversations will take. 603 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: Us listeners. You want to hear from you. What are 604 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: you thinking about times Up? Are you so excited to 605 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:45,960 Speaker 1: see where it goes? Do you think it's going to 606 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 1: be the reckoning that we're all hoping it will be. 607 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,240 Speaker 1: How do you think that these Hollywood celebrities wearing black 608 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: will impact all of this? What are your thoughts on it? 609 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: You want to hear from you, and we'll be tweeting 610 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: along as the Golden Globes sort of make that public 611 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: display of solidarity and support for Time's Up, So don't 612 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: forget to tune in and tweet along with us at 613 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast, hit us up on Instagram at stuff 614 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You, And as always, we want to 615 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: hear from you, your stories, your motivation, how you're going 616 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 1: to be a part of the me too movement and 617 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: the Time's Up movement saying enough is enough, It's time 618 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: for systemic change. Send us your emails at mom Stuff 619 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:36,760 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com