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Speaker 1: The medic house to brutally stabbing four University of Idaho

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Speaker 1: students to death.

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Speaker 2: Appears in court.

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Speaker 3: Coberger is accused of murdering University of Idaho students Kailee Gonzalvez,

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Speaker 3: Madison Mogan, Zena Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin.

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Speaker 4: This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios

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Speaker 4: and iHeartRadio, episode four cracks in the narrative, I'm Courtney Armstrong,

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Speaker 4: a television producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie Leidecker, Jeff Shane,

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Speaker 4: and Connor Powell. After being arrested in Pennsylvania, an extradited

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Speaker 4: twenty eight year old Brian Coberger is in prison awaiting

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Speaker 4: trial for the murders of four University of Idaho students.

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Speaker 4: Six months after police say the former PhD criminology student

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Speaker 4: committed the brutal murders. Coberger appeared in an Idaho courtroom.

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Speaker 4: The families of several of the victims watched the arraignment

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Speaker 4: hearing from the gallery. After a brief glance toward the families,

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Speaker 4: Coburger kept his head and eyes looking forward.

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Speaker 3: Day.

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Speaker 5: We are now on record in a state of Idaho

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Speaker 5: versus banger with.

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Speaker 4: His feet shackled and wearing an orange prison outfit. Coburger

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Speaker 4: listened as the judge read the charges against him and

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Speaker 4: explained that a conviction carried a penalty of life in

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Speaker 4: prison or death.

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Speaker 5: Miss Taylor as mister Coberger prepared to plead to these charges.

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Speaker 4: When the judge asked Coburger's attorney if he was ready

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Speaker 4: to enter a plea of guilty or not guilty, Attorney

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Speaker 4: Ann Taylor declined. The judge then entered a plea on

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Speaker 4: behalf of Brian Coburger.

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Speaker 5: Because Coberger is standing silent, I'm going to answer that

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Speaker 5: guilty police each charge.

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Speaker 4: The judge then set a trial date for October second.

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Speaker 6: Brian was very shocked by his arrest.

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Speaker 4: While investigators believe they have their man, the case against

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Speaker 4: Brian Cobeger is far from airtight.

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Speaker 6: Eager to be exonerated was the language he used as

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Speaker 6: he was asserting innocence.

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Speaker 4: It's important to note that Brian Cobeger has not been

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Speaker 4: found guilty of any crimes. Monroe County public defender Jason

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Speaker 4: Lebar represented Coburger in Pennsylvania after his arrest. Lebar is

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Speaker 4: no longer working for Coburger, but has been a regular

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Speaker 4: on TV and in the media, pushing back on the

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Speaker 4: official police narrative.

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Speaker 6: It's a strong circumstantial case, but the evidence, when it

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Speaker 6: is viewed individually, you can attack that evidence as a

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Speaker 6: defense attorney.

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Speaker 4: Here's Stephanie and Jeff.

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Speaker 7: So at this point, officials are in the very early

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Speaker 7: stages of laying out their case against the alleged killer,

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Speaker 7: Brian Coburger.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, all that's been released is this nineteen page probable

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Speaker 8: cause AFFIDAVID. A probable cause affidavid is a summary of

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Speaker 8: the evidence and circumstances of the arrest. It's usually written

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Speaker 8: by the arresting officer and given to a judge for

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Speaker 8: a review.

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Speaker 7: And within these nineteen pages we learned a lot about

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Speaker 7: the night of the massacre and how police zeroed in

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Speaker 7: on Coburger specifically.

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Speaker 8: A lot of the evidence at this stage is merely circumstantial. Now,

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Speaker 8: for listeners who don't know or need a reminder, circumstantial

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Speaker 8: evidence is evidence of facts that the court can draw

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Speaker 8: conclusions from. So in this case, the fact that we

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Speaker 8: know Coburger's cell phone pinged off of towers near the

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Speaker 8: scene of the crime points to the idea that he

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Speaker 8: may have been around the area when these murders were committed,

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Speaker 8: and when you put all of that together, it paints

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Speaker 8: a pretty damning picture, but it's not direct evidence like

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Speaker 8: DNA or being in possession of the murder weapon. We

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Speaker 8: need to remember that everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty,

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Speaker 8: and as Coburger's first attorney pointed out, the best way

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Speaker 8: for any defense to attack the prosecution is to remind

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Speaker 8: the jury that everything the prosecution has is circumstantial, because

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Speaker 8: at the end of the day, all the defense needs

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Speaker 8: to do is find one jury member who has doubts

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Speaker 8: about the case.

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Speaker 7: And it's also important to note that likely investigators have

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Speaker 7: more evidence than their sharing at this point. In the

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Speaker 7: immediate aftermath of the brutal murders, Moscow police said the

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Speaker 7: two surviving roommates, Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk, were home

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Speaker 7: during the murders, but they did not wake up until

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Speaker 7: later in the morning. That information was part of every

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Speaker 7: timeline until December twentieth, when Moscow pdeve removed it. Ten

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Speaker 7: days later, when Brian Coberger was arrested, police stated in

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Speaker 7: the probable cause Affidavid that Dylan was not only awake,

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Speaker 7: but had seen the attacker.

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Speaker 3: This time, she saw a dark figure standing there in

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Speaker 3: black clothing, wearing a mask that covered that person's mouth.

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Speaker 3: She remembered that person being about five foot ten, not

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Speaker 3: very muscular, but with an athletic build. She also remembered

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Speaker 3: seeing bushy eyebrows.

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Speaker 4: Here again, Jeff and Stephanie.

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Speaker 8: Regardless of what Dylan may or may not have seen,

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Speaker 8: she and Bethany are both victims and all this. They

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Speaker 8: lived through a serious trauma, They lost their friends, and

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Speaker 8: have been skewered by the media.

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Speaker 4: It's just not right.

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Speaker 7: The prosecution may be sympathetic to that, but they also

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Speaker 7: have a case to close, and Dylan is the big

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Speaker 7: star witness, and the question is, though, is sheer reliable.

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Speaker 3: One terrified she remained frozen in place as the suspect

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Speaker 3: walked past her and left out the sliding glass door

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Speaker 3: behind her.

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Speaker 8: There are some things we know based on the probable

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Speaker 8: cause effidavit. We know that Dylan was quote unquote frozen

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Speaker 8: in fear, that she heard some sort of cries from

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Speaker 8: her roommates, and she saw a masked man who was

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Speaker 8: slender but not muscular, with bushy eyebrows.

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Speaker 7: Dylan's description definitely offers something, but again, it doesn't really

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Speaker 7: link Brian Coberger to the murder, not very muscular, having

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Speaker 7: bushy eyebrows that could describe a lot of people. She

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Speaker 7: also made no mention of skin color or hair color.

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Speaker 8: While at first the information dell And provided seemed to

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Speaker 8: point the finger at Coburger, upon closer look at actually

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Speaker 8: might be more helpful for the defense because this vague

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Speaker 8: description could cause reasonable doubt amongst dury members.

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Speaker 7: Detectives announced that they are interested in talking to the

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Speaker 7: person or people in a white twenty eleven to twenty

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Speaker 7: thirteen Hondai Elektra.

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Speaker 4: The first piece of evidence that appears to connect Brian

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Speaker 4: Koberger to the crime is his white Hondai Alantra.

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Speaker 8: It may be a big break in the case.

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Speaker 7: A grainy image of a speeding car that could be

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Speaker 7: the white Hondai Alantra police are looking for.

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Speaker 4: According to the probable Cause Affidavid, multiple security cameras caught

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Speaker 4: a white Alantra driving past the home on King Road

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Speaker 4: within minutes around the murders. Coburger's first defense attorney, Jason

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Speaker 4: Lebar points out that white Olanchas are common cars and

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Speaker 4: Coburger is just one of many owners of the four

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Speaker 4: door Sedan.

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Speaker 6: The white A Lantra can't be determined to be his

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Speaker 6: white Alantra. I mean, there's circumstantial evidence indicating that it

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Speaker 6: could potentially be his white A Launcher, but there's certainly

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Speaker 6: not direct evidence.

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Speaker 4: Again, Jeff and Stephanie.

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Speaker 8: We know that within days of the murders, police told

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Speaker 8: the wider community to be on the lookout for a

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Speaker 8: white Hyundai Elantra.

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Speaker 7: As a result, the officer at WSU found this exact

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Speaker 7: type of car registered to Brian Coburger.

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Speaker 8: Police also checked his records and noted that Coburger had

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Speaker 8: changed his registration from Pennsylvania to Washington State on November eighteenth,

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Speaker 8: which was just days after the murder.

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Speaker 6: They don't have direct evidence that he's driving the white Alantra.

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Speaker 8: Here's the problem. Police haven't provided any evidence that Coburger

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Speaker 8: was actually driving the car speeding past the house on

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Speaker 8: King Road as of this moment. There's no highway or

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Speaker 8: red light camera photos, nothing.

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Speaker 4: That we know of.

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Speaker 7: And keep in mind, at this point we may not

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Speaker 7: have all the information that the police does.

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Speaker 8: That's true, and we also don't know what they found

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Speaker 8: in the car. According to experts we talked to, if

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Speaker 8: this was Coburger's car and he really did kill four

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Speaker 8: people and then get in and drive away, it's likely that,

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Speaker 8: no matter how well he scrubbed and cleaned, there would

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Speaker 8: be some sort of DNA evidence in that car from

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Speaker 8: the night in question.

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Speaker 7: And I think it's worth noting that DNA can take

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Speaker 7: weeks to process, and at the time of his arrest,

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Speaker 7: investigators didn't have access to his car.

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Speaker 4: However, now weeks later they do. A key part of

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Speaker 4: the prosecution of Brian Coburger will be putting him at

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Speaker 4: the scene of the crime. Police also need to place

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Speaker 4: Brian Coberger behind the wheel of the suspected vehicle in

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Speaker 4: the probable cause AFFIDAVID Investigators rely on historical cell side

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Speaker 4: data to make this connection. Here again Jeff and Stephanie.

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Speaker 7: So in an effort to track Coburger, police really had

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Speaker 7: to rely on cell phone towers and to see where

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Speaker 7: Coburger's cell phone was pinging from A.

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Speaker 8: Cell phone pang is the act of determining the estimated

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Speaker 8: current location of a cell phone. This may be accomplished

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Speaker 8: via GPS data or by using cell phone tower triangulation, which,

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Speaker 8: as we know in this case, is what they used.

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Speaker 7: Police were able to get a search warrant for Coburger's

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Speaker 7: cell phone records because he had been pulled over for

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Speaker 7: a traffic violation prior and he gave police his cell

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Speaker 7: phone number. Upon reviewing the records, police determined that Coburger's

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Speaker 7: phone was connecting to towers in Moscow around that time,

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Speaker 7: and that his movements were very similar to what the

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Speaker 7: alleged killer was doing at that time.

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Speaker 8: And so I think what we surmise from this is

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Speaker 8: that we are all glued to our phones. I'm here's

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Speaker 8: my in my hand right now. So it stands to

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Speaker 8: reason that of Coburger was in the car that night,

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Speaker 8: so was his phone. However, it should be noted that

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Speaker 8: locating a mobile phone based on a single Stete cell

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Speaker 8: phone tower places the phone in a broad area, but

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Speaker 8: it cannot actually pinpoint the exact location. So it's not

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Speaker 8: like this is one hundred percent reliable science.

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Speaker 4: Cell Phones are intimate devices. Their data knows a lot

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Speaker 4: about us. If Coburger's phone was in his car, then

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Speaker 4: he was likely in his car. Once police began to

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Speaker 4: hone in on Brian Coburger, they began looking at his

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Speaker 4: movements around the time of the murders. He had given

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Speaker 4: his cell phone number to a deputy during a previous

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Speaker 4: traffic stop, so police got a search warrant for his

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Speaker 4: cell phone records. A police review determined Coburger's phone was

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Speaker 4: connecting to towers in the Moscow area and were similar

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Speaker 4: to the movements of the suspected white Atlantra investigators believed

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Speaker 4: was the murder vehicle. But cell phone pings on a

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Speaker 4: tower are not precise GPS location coordinates.

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Speaker 6: If it was GPS location cordinates, you're talking down to

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Speaker 6: a meter as to where Brian Coburger was at the

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Speaker 6: time of these crimes, Whereas a cell phone tower ping

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Speaker 6: is that you're within a radius of that tower up

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Speaker 6: to twenty miles. And obviously mister Coburger lived within ten

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Speaker 6: miles of the University of Idaho where these crimes were committed,

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Speaker 6: so certainly he could ping at any moment in time

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Speaker 6: near the actual crime.

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Speaker 7: The night of the murders, Coburger's phone was tracked heading

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Speaker 7: to Moscow before the attack, but his phone was off

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Speaker 7: from two forty seven am to four forty eight AM.

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Speaker 8: So what you're saying is that this looks like what

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Speaker 8: he's trying to conceal his location for these approximately two hours.

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Speaker 7: Coburger's former attorney said, just because Coburger's phone pings at

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Speaker 7: a tower doesn't mean much considering the short distance between Pullman, Washington,

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Speaker 7: where Coburger lived, and Moscow, where the victims were murdered.

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Speaker 8: Right because the phone data places him near the scene

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Speaker 8: of the crime, but not actually at the scene of

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Speaker 8: the crime. Now, his cars built in computer may be

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Speaker 8: a different story and provide a lot of data, but

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Speaker 8: so far it has not been presented as evidence.

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Speaker 4: When investigators began combing through the crime scene, they found

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Speaker 4: a tan leather knife sheath underneath Madison's body and the comforter.

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Speaker 4: According to the probable cause Affidavid police found a single

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Speaker 4: mail source DNA on the button of that knife sheath.

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Speaker 4: Later testing identified that DNA as Brian Coburger's.

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Speaker 8: On the face of it, this DNA link on the

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Speaker 8: knife sheath is very strong evidence against Coburger, but upon

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Speaker 8: closer inspection, the existence of DNA on the sheaf doesn't

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Speaker 8: actually mean Coburger was there the knight of the murders.

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Speaker 8: All it really means is that at some point he

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Speaker 8: came into contact with the knife sheath.

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Speaker 7: And granted this all sounds very suspicious, but again just

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Speaker 7: throwing it out there as an alternate theory. Maybe somebody

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Speaker 7: is trying to frame Coburger and that the real killer

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Speaker 7: placed the knife sheath where the victims were murdered.

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Speaker 8: That is certainly an argument that defense could and probably

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Speaker 8: will make without a murder weapon. This evidence is circumstantial.

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Speaker 8: Remember this, for Gill is beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 7: It does seem like there's a lot of evidence mounting

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Speaker 7: against Coburger. There are also plenty of places, though, to

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Speaker 7: raise reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 4: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in

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Speaker 4: a moment. If Brian Coberger's innocent as he claims, are

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Speaker 4: there any alternative theories that could explain the murders Jeff

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Speaker 4: and Stephanie.

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Speaker 8: Like so many murder investigations, the police looked into many

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Speaker 8: different possibilities. In the immediate aftermath of the crimes. The

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Speaker 8: first suspect was Kaylee's ex boyfriend, a young man named Jack.

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Speaker 8: The para dated for about five years and had recently

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Speaker 8: broken up, but they were still in communication the night

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Speaker 8: of the murders. Between two twenty six and two forty

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Speaker 8: four am, Kaylee called Jack six times. Then between two

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Speaker 8: forty four and two fifty two am, Madison, who was

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Speaker 8: presumably with Kaylee, called him three times. Finally, at two

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Speaker 8: fifty two am, Kaylee called him one more time, all

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Speaker 8: to no avail.

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Speaker 7: This was all so tragic for Jack, but again it's

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Speaker 7: very common to look at the people closest to the

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Speaker 7: victims first when you're starting an investigation. But he was

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Speaker 7: ultimately cleared very quickly.

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Speaker 8: So after the ex boyfriend, we heard about a supposed stalker.

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Speaker 8: A local business owner went to the press and said

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Speaker 8: that about three weeks before the murders, they overheard Madison

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Speaker 8: and Kaylee voicing concerns about Kaylee being stocked. She said

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Speaker 8: she would beg friends to walk closely behind her at

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Speaker 8: all times after becoming terrified of someone who would follow

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Speaker 8: her around town. Could this mystery stocker also be the killer?

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Speaker 7: And that story was also backed up by the footage

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Speaker 7: from this food truck. In this video, if you've seen it,

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Speaker 7: it appeared that there was this gentleman, a young guy

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Speaker 7: kind of following Kaylee and Madison. And again, depending upon

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Speaker 7: how you look at this footage, you could interpret this

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Speaker 7: person as looking creepy or suspicious because he was wearing

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Speaker 7: a hood. It's a snippet of a video. So is

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Speaker 7: everyone just grasping at straws or is this actual real evidence.

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Speaker 8: Well staph. After this food truck guy, we heard about

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Speaker 8: Xana's Doordashulibry and whether or not the driver might have

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Speaker 8: seen something or somehow been involved.

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Speaker 7: And there were also all of those rumors about a

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Speaker 7: love triangle gone wrong and scorned roommates seeking revenge. It

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Speaker 7: all was getting extremely nuts at this point. It seems

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Speaker 7: as though social media at least was targeting a lot

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Speaker 7: of people without any information.

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Speaker 8: And it's safe to assume that investigators checked out all

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Speaker 8: these possibilities and people and they were all cleared or

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Speaker 8: never even considered suspects in the first place. But unfortunately,

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Speaker 8: with a case like this, it doesn't really mean much

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Speaker 8: for these innocent men and women because they were not

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Speaker 8: free from online abuse and the court of public opinion.

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Speaker 4: Within hours of the brutal murders, local and national media

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Speaker 4: descended on the once relatively unknown town of Moscow and

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Speaker 4: began to cover the shocking killings. At nearly the same time,

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Speaker 4: an invisible army of internet sleuths and trolls began to

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Speaker 4: speculate on the investigation from Afar. Dozens of YouTube, TikTok, Facebook,

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Speaker 4: and Reddit groups emerged overnight to discuss, dissect, and analyze

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Speaker 4: all aspects of the case.

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Speaker 1: People are making things up because they want answers and

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Speaker 1: because the gag order. People are making things up for

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Speaker 1: content too, So like on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube,

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Speaker 1: people are just making shut up and the running with

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Speaker 1: it like it was a drug house and you know

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Speaker 1: this was a drug deal gone bad and the door

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Speaker 1: dash driver was secretly delivering cocaine. You know what I mean. Like,

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Speaker 1: people are just making shut up.

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Speaker 4: Despite the massive amount of public interest, for weeks, police

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Speaker 4: provided few details about the gruesome murders, and the judge

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Speaker 4: in Idaho also issued a gag order preventing anyone involved

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Speaker 4: from speaking publicly. The Internet often recklessly jumped in to

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Speaker 4: fill the void. The baseless speculation and misinformation came with

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Speaker 4: grim consequences for real innocent people.

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Speaker 1: Just no, I'm not the only one who suspect Rebecca's.

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Speaker 4: Go a TikTok psychic accused Rebecca Schofield, an associate professor

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Speaker 4: at the University, of being in a lover's triangle and

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Speaker 4: orchestrating the murders.

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Speaker 5: If anyone would have been considered a person of interest.

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Speaker 4: And would have had a motive, it would have been Jack.

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Speaker 4: At the same time, a YouTuber accused Kaylee's ex boyfriend,

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Speaker 4: Jack Decor of the killings, suggesting their recent breakup after

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Speaker 4: five years of dating as a cause for the crime.

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Speaker 1: When you talk about like the reddit, because there's so

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Speaker 1: many subreddits dedicated to this case. There's Idaho four, There's

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Speaker 1: Moscow Murders, there's you know, Brian Coberger Moscow murders. There's

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Speaker 1: so many different subreddits dedicated to this case that have,

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Speaker 1: i mean hundreds of thousands of posts discussing everything under

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Speaker 1: the sun. And because there's no real moderation, you know,

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Speaker 1: on those those subreddits, there's all kinds of speculation.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: The moderation on some of the subreddits could use little work.

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Speaker 1: I mean, people are posting, you know, make they're making

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Speaker 1: things up.

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Speaker 4: Deanna Thompson is the co host, along with John Green,

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Speaker 4: of the upcoming iHeart Kat Studios podcast True Crimes with

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Speaker 4: John and Deanna. In twenty ten, they led the online

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Speaker 4: effort to identify and catch the international serial killer Luca

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Speaker 4: Magnata That case was later turned into the popular Netflix

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Speaker 4: documentary Don't Fuck with Cats. Stephanie and Jeff.

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Speaker 8: John Green and Deana Thompson aren't your typical online slows.

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Speaker 8: They became famous for their work helping catch a killer online.

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Speaker 8: It was all showcased in Netflix's Don't f with Cats

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Speaker 8: in twenty nineteen. Here at Katie Studios, we're actually working

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Speaker 8: with them on a new podcast called True Crimes, which

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Speaker 8: will be out later this year.

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Speaker 7: And if you haven't seen their documentary, please do. It's

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Speaker 7: astounding the work that they do. They're the perfect example

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Speaker 7: of people who really conduct ethical, responsible investigations and turn

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Speaker 7: over any relevant information to the police. It's impressive and

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Speaker 7: it's really effective.

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Speaker 4: Here's Deanna Thompson aka Body Movin, followed by John Green.

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Speaker 1: I do think that people want to make sense of

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Speaker 1: a really senseless murder of for like super rad people,

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Speaker 1: you know, like how could this happen? So you have

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Speaker 1: to make sense of it somehow, And in order to

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Speaker 1: do that with a gag order and no information coming out,

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Speaker 1: the only thing that you can do is get on

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Speaker 1: the internet and talk to other people who are also

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out what happened and I think that

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Speaker 1: is cathartic. The problem with it is is imagine being

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Speaker 1: Dylan or Bethany and having all these rumors come out

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Speaker 1: about you, like you're involved somehow or you were in

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Speaker 1: some sort of drug ring or human trafficking. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the gamut has run wild on these two girls, and

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Speaker 1: it's really tragic because they are listed as victims. They

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Speaker 1: are listed as victims, and you don't victim shame people.

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Speaker 1: And I feel that's what's been done to Dylan and Bethany.

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Speaker 1: And it was happening to just Dylan because she's mentioned

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Speaker 1: a lot in the PCA, But now that Bethany has

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Speaker 1: potentially exculpatory information and she just got a subpoena in

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Speaker 1: the state of Nevada to come testify at the prelim hearing,

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Speaker 1: which has been squashed by the way they're going to

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Speaker 1: come to Nevada and interview her instead. Now all the

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Speaker 1: attentions on Bethany because she potentially has exculpatory information, and

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Speaker 1: it's like, what does she know that's going to help Brian,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like people are already starting

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Speaker 1: to point fingers at her and it breaks my heart

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Speaker 1: for them. And so that side of things I find

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Speaker 1: quite disgusting, quite disgusting, and I have no qualms in

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Speaker 1: telling people how disgusting I think they are.

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Speaker 9: Another aspect to it is time. When the incident happens

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Speaker 9: and there's an amount of time that lapses before the police

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Speaker 9: arrest somebody, I think that it triggers something in people.

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Speaker 9: So this incident happened November thirteenth. It was a high

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Speaker 9: profile murder case where four innocent college students in a

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Speaker 9: small town were killed. Was on all the major news.

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Speaker 9: Nobody knew. I think people get triggered, like, what is

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Speaker 9: taking the police so long? Why can't they solve this?

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Speaker 9: I know, I'm going to jump online and I'm going

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Speaker 9: to try and figure this out myself. So there's that

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Speaker 9: time element to it. I think it took six weeks

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Speaker 9: before they arrested Brian. So when you have this gap

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Speaker 9: and people think police aren't doing their job, I believe

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Speaker 9: some of the parents are coming out saying the police

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Speaker 9: aren't being forthcoming. I think that adds to it and

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Speaker 9: gives people this sense of hey, let's go online. I mean,

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Speaker 9: if you arrest somebody within forty eight seventy two hours,

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Speaker 9: there's no time for the public to go out there

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Speaker 9: and make these wild accusations, or for psychics to get

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Speaker 9: involved in you know, try and figure out anytime a

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Speaker 9: psychic's involved, you know something's not right. Don't listen to psychics.

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Speaker 9: So I think that was part of this very high

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Speaker 9: profile case.

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Speaker 8: Well, yeah, let's talk about how there's a way to

403
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Speaker 8: do it ethically, and that's what you guys do, and

404
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Speaker 8: then there's ways with unethically, which is maybe what we're seeing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the things, you know, and I

406
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Speaker 1: don't know if it's an ethical thing or not, but

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Speaker 1: one of the things that we have done in the

408
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Speaker 1: past is we don't really talk about the cases that

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Speaker 1: we're working on. Ever. We don't post about them.

410
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Speaker 4: We don't ask the public for help.

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Speaker 1: We don't and if we do, it's very sneaky, you know,

412
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Speaker 1: and it doesn't give anything away. We don't make videos

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Speaker 1: about them, we don't do anything. And it's specifically because

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Speaker 1: we don't want the suspect to know that we're looking

415
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Speaker 1: at them. Number one, because sometimes I feel like there's

416
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Speaker 1: a new case right now and I feel like me

417
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Speaker 1: even acknowledging that I know about it gives that the

418
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Speaker 1: person that did it like a little bit of a rush,

419
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Speaker 1: like Ooh, body Movement's looking at me, you know what

420
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Speaker 1: I mean, Like Ooh, I put this cat in a

421
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Speaker 1: blunder and maybe i'll i'll, you know, maybe body movement

422
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Speaker 1: and John Green will look at my case, you know,

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Speaker 1: Like I don't want to give them any attention. So

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Speaker 1: I don't want the suspect to know that I have

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Speaker 1: the specific evidence I eat puma, which we talk about

426
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Speaker 1: a lot in the podcast. I don't want the suspect

427
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Speaker 1: to even know that him and I are working on it,

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Speaker 1: because I think that will give them some sort of

429
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Speaker 1: ego boost that these Netflix people are looking at me,

430
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Speaker 1: you know, get them happy if there is Like in

431
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Speaker 1: the cases that John and I typically work on, the

432
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Speaker 1: victim is an animal, right, so there's no like human

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Speaker 1: being that I have to like be careful with, like

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Speaker 1: as far as a victim is concerned. But if you

435
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Speaker 1: are talking about something like Idaho or there are actual

436
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Speaker 1: humans that are victims and family that is suffering, I

437
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Speaker 1: just think it's incredibly insensitive to get on national television

438
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Speaker 1: and talk about rumors that you've heard where Ethan was

439
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 1: sliced from ankle to groin.

440
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:54,479
Speaker 9: Do you know what I mean.

441
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: I just think that's it's a rumor. I just think

442
00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 1: it's incredibly insensitive. His parents, his brother, their and sister.

443
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: They have to see that, you know what I mean.

444
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: And while they know what happened, I'm sure by now

445
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,199
Speaker 1: they know what happened to him. Do we really need

446
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 1: to know what happened to him right now before court?

447
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,880
Speaker 1: Do we need to know that? Is it important that

448
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: the public know that you heard a rumor that Ethan

449
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,119
Speaker 1: was slashed from ankle to groin? And I just think

450
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 1: it's insensitive and I would never do that.

451
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 9: Dan and I at the core of it, are true

452
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 9: crime fans, just like people listening to this podcast. And

453
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,919
Speaker 9: as a true crime fan, you've watched enough documentaries or

454
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 9: series involving detectives or investigations, you always hear the same thing.

455
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 9: It's an ongoing investigation, no comment, and so you need

456
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,960
Speaker 9: to learn to keep a tight lip, not say anything,

457
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 9: don't expose anything that you have or know. You know, again,

458
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 9: we're just armchair detectives, are not experts or anything. Who

459
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 9: are we to go online and making a statement or

460
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 9: accusation or accuse somebody, You know, it's not our place.

461
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 9: We try to collect the evidence, put it in a

462
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 9: format that's easily understandable. Contact the local law enforcement or

463
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 9: wherever has jurisdiction. Talk to somebody there, say hey, we'd

464
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 9: like to email you something. Let them handle it from there.

465
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 4: Let's stop here for another break. In twenty twenty two,

466
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 4: investigators requested social media videos and photos to help zero

467
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 4: in on the movements of Gabby Patito before and after

468
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 4: she disappeared. Here is Adam Wandit, a digital forensic expert

469
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 4: and professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He

470
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 4: points out that her case isn't really one of online's

471
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 4: slews breaking the case open, but more an example of

472
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 4: the widespread availability of videos aiding law enforcement.

473
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 2: In the Gabby Potito case, the evidence that led to

474
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:01,479
Speaker 2: the recovery of Gabby Potito's body was actually evidence that

475
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 2: was on a video camera of somebody who was driving

476
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: through the park that accidentally recorded the vehicle that was

477
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 2: used to dump her body in the park, and only

478
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 2: after the case, only after he recorded it, when he

479
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 2: learned on social media that there was a potential body

480
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 2: or murder in that park, he went through his own evidence,

481
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 2: found what he was looking for, posted it to YouTube,

482
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 2: sent it to law enforcement, and in the Gabby Batito

483
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 2: case specifically, that evidence was critical pro finding her body

484
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 2: and bringing her killer to justice. And you know, it

485
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 2: doesn't always happen that the public has that information, but

486
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 2: in the Gabby Batito case they did. But that is certainly,

487
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 2: you know, the rare exception.

488
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 4: When Internet sleuths have inserted themselves into active cases, it

489
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,919
Speaker 4: hasn't always gone well. In twenty thirteen, thousands of online

490
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 4: and amateur detectives rushed to identify the individuals they believed

491
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 4: carried out the Boston marathon bombing. They were wrong and

492
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 4: misidentified several innocent people. With thousands of online sleuths and

493
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 4: commentators posting about the Idaho murders, some have stuck out.

494
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: A user who goes by Papa Roger was a prolific

495
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: contributor on the site with many creepy and insensitive posts.

496
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 4: The prolific poster appear to have knowledge of the facts

497
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 4: of the case before information was officially released. At the

498
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 4: same time, Papa Rogers also made claims that turned out

499
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 4: to be wrong, like suggesting that the white Alantra was

500
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 4: a quote red herring. Many have speculated that the poster

501
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 4: Papa Rogers was in fact Brian Coberger, Stephanie, and Jeff.

502
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 7: Papa Rogers was a member of the University of Idaho

503
00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 7: Murders Case Discussion, which was basically a Facebook group up

504
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 7: out of nowhere and very quickly amassed about two hundred

505
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 7: and twenty five thousand users. That just shows the country's

506
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 7: interest in this case. It's just one of the hundreds

507
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 7: of online groups talking about the case real time, but

508
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 7: of all the members, Papa Rogers he stuck out to

509
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 7: the group because he was being very condescending and very

510
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 7: argumentative to other online users.

511
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 8: Other things also caused Papa Rogers to be a notable

512
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 8: member of this group. They posted frequently with information that

513
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 8: seemed almost too detailed. For example, one post read of

514
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 8: the evidence released the murder weapon has been consistent as

515
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 8: a large, fixed blade knife. This leads me to believe

516
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 8: they found the sheath. While this time police did say

517
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 8: they were searching for a bladed murder weapon, investigators hadn't

518
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 8: yet said anything about the knife sheath being at the

519
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 8: murder scene until the probable cause AFFIDAVID was released, meaning

520
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 8: that Papa Rogers was either a very good guesser or

521
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 8: they somehow knew something the general public did not, and.

522
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 7: Also real time over on Readit, a very similar user

523
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 7: named inside Looking also appeared to have a lot of

524
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 7: detailed information that hadn't been released to the press yet.

525
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 8: One post read speculation killer parked behind the house, approached

526
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 8: property through treeline, entered sliding door, and left it open.

527
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 8: Committed murders an exited sliding door, one knife according to

528
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 8: Corner's statement. Time of murder approximately three twenty to three

529
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,959
Speaker 8: forty am, according to the car fleeing the scene and

530
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 8: on camera on Highway eight approximately three forty five am.

531
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 8: Vehicle left skid marks upon exit.

532
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 7: The detailed post really creeped out the Reddit posters, and

533
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 7: there was this one person I recall saying, quote, Dude,

534
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 7: this guy is solving his own crime, psycho end quote,

535
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 7: really implying that it's possible that the killer has now

536
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 7: joined this group to really better understand the chatter happening

537
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 7: around the crime. Interestingly, or coincidentally, Papa Rodgers was later

538
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 7: kicked out of the group discussion and seemingly disappeared just

539
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 7: before Coburger was arrested.

540
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 4: More on that next time. For more information on the

541
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 4: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Kat

542
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 4: Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masacre is produced by Stephanie Leidecker,

543
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 4: Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Chris Bargo, Gabriel Castillo and me

544
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 4: Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Toi. Music

545
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 4: by Jared Aston. The Idaho Massacre is a production of

546
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,719
Speaker 4: iHeart Radio and KAT Studios. For more podcasts like this,

547
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 4: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

548
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 4: to your favorite shows. I'm Diana.

549
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: You may know as Body Movin, My Friend and I

550
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: John Green were featured in the Netflix documentary Don't f

551
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: with Cats. On our new podcast True Crimes with John

552
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: and Deiana were turning our online investigative skills to some

553
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: of the most unexplained, unsolved, and most ignored cases.

554
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 8: Please say thirty three year old bride again shot dead.

555
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 5: Gunned down in front of his two year old daughter.

556
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 7: Detectives confirmed that it was a targeted attack.

557
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 9: It appears to be an execution style of assassination.

558
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 4: This is very active, so we have to be careful.

559
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: I've heard that there's a house that has some bodies

560
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: in the basement.

561
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 6: I knew, I just knew something was wrong.

562
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 9: Maybe there's something more sinister at play than just one

563
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 9: young girl going missing.

564
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 8: If you know something, heard something, please it's never too

565
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 8: late to.

566
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 9: Do the right thing.

567
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: This is true Crimes with John and Deanna, the production of.

568
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 9: KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Justice is something that takes different

569
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 9: shapes or formed