1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: A semeral is the protection of I Heard Radio. One 2 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: of the most rewarding parts of this project has been 3 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: getting to meet so many brilliant people then plying them 4 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: with questions. Turns out, if you tell people you have 5 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: a podcast, they will just talk to you and let 6 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: you record it. One of the hardest parts is editing. 7 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: No matter what, there was always too much great tape 8 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: left over. These are some of my favorite Here to 9 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: four Unaired moments from four interviews of the past season. 10 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: Though everyone is speaking on a different subject, one thing 11 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: they all have in common is a passion for this work. 12 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: Ian Nagaski is a music reach searcher whose label, Canary 13 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: Records does mostly reissues of music and languages other than English. 14 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: The collection to What's Strange Place the Music of the 15 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: Ottoman American Diaspora introduced me to his work and became 16 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: the basis for our season one episode entitled Diaspora with 17 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: the Music. Ian has collected amazing stories of performers that 18 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: otherwise may have been forgotten. Here's a little bit of 19 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: his story. I was a person who dug through records 20 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 1: and went looking for old music ever since I was 21 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: a kid. Uh sometime in my late teens, I started 22 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:42,839 Speaker 1: buying RPM discs um just thinking there would be something 23 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: maybe interesting on them, because I'd heard reissue records of 24 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: old country and blues and jazz and that kind of 25 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: stuff while I was growing up, and when looked and 26 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: you know, started digging into flea markets and things, going like, well, 27 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: why you know what? What is this stuff? Is there 28 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:00,559 Speaker 1: anything good on here that maybe I don't know about 29 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: that I hadn't run into before. So I wound up 30 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:08,839 Speaker 1: intentionally buying anything that wasn't in English, And it turned out, yeah, 31 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: there there were some good music I'd never heard of 32 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: before and that nobody I knew knew anything about. And 33 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: I just started kind of gathering these things up real cheap, 34 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: ten cents apiece, dollar apiece, and over the years I 35 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: would play them for friends, and then eventually I wound 36 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: up with a lot of them, and I kept asking 37 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: questions of people, do you know what this is? Is 38 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: there a story here? And I started gathering stories that 39 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: related to the records that I already owned, and then 40 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: I started finding out bigger stories about how different ones 41 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: of the records connected with one another. About two thousand seven, 42 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: I put out a C D it was kind of 43 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: a best of my record collection for a label called 44 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:56,679 Speaker 1: Dust Digital. That record is called Black Mirror Reflections and 45 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:01,519 Speaker 1: Global Musics, And for that record, I wound up including 46 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,959 Speaker 1: in the liner notes the back stories to every record 47 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: that was on there, you know, as much information as 48 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: I could find out. In the process of learning those 49 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: stories and writing those notes, I kind of developed some 50 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: skills in research and have been sort of developing that 51 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: ever since. So a little bit more than a decade now, 52 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: I've been doing reissue records of old stuff and languages 53 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: that I don't speak with. Some of the variety of 54 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: stuff that you're finding, I guess in that early period, 55 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: I remember the first three records I ever bought at 56 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: a flea market in Newcastle, Delaware. I got a Carter 57 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: family record on Montgomery Ward Records called the Cowboys Lonesome 58 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: Song to His Heard. I knew who the Carter family were, 59 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: and I thought that was a good title, So for 60 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: ten cents I was good on that one. I got 61 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: a record that was in Japanese that turned out to 62 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: have been recorded in Hawaii. UM one side was called 63 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: the Song of Are Young, which was a song about 64 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: a a sad pilgrimage in Korea. Uh, it was structured 65 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: as a twelve bar blues and it was in three 66 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: or four time, so it's a twelve bar blues waltz 67 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: in Japanese recorded in Hawaii. I thought, well, that's interesting. 68 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: And then the other record was a record by um. 69 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: They were then called the Bagelman's Sisters. They were later 70 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: renamed the Berry Sisters, and they were basically the Yiddish 71 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: language Andrews Sisters during the and uh, yeah, they were 72 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: pretty good. And the guy who sold me the records 73 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: was this um, big, very very stoned guy who looked 74 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: at these records and looked at me. I was nineteen 75 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: years old or eighteen years old, and he just goes, 76 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: Bagelman Sisters, are you going to listen to that? I 77 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: think I will. And I bought a little turntable, a 78 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: little like classroom turntable that same day for maybe like 79 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 1: ten bucks at the flea market. We're great, and so yeah, 80 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: I just started picking stuff up whatever it was. You know, 81 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: next thing, you know, some buddy's yard sale. They've got 82 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: a box of old records in Russian and you know 83 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:13,919 Speaker 1: how much were the box? And they go five bucks 84 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: and you go all right, let's figure out some Russian records. 85 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: So one thing would lead to another. So what yard sales, 86 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: estate sales, thrift stores? I feel I feel like you've 87 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: told me you've literally pulled records like out of the 88 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 1: trash before. Sure, lots of times, yeah, um, a lot 89 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: of basements, a lot of addicts, um, you know, putting 90 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: ads in. You know, hey, if you have any older records, 91 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 1: I'd like to come look at them. And you know, 92 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 1: next thing, you know somebody's polka collection, but you know, 93 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: old stuff, and go okay, well, you know how much 94 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: for everything? When I started looking into one particular story, 95 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: I kind of put out an ap B to everybody 96 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: I knew who was a record head. By that time, 97 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: I owned a record store myself, so I knew a 98 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: lot of record people. And one buddy of mine, Angela 99 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: Sawyer in Boston, wrote to me and she goes, yeah, yeah, 100 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 1: I've got a bunch of stuff in like Turkish. I 101 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: guess it's been sitting, uh under my TV stand for 102 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: about ten years. Spent maybe a dozen records. And I said, well, 103 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: that sounds like maybe something I would want or need, 104 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: And she sent me these records. They were all made 105 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 1: by Armenians and Greeks, uh, and we're big sellers in 106 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: the Boston area where there were a lot of folks 107 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: from that community. And I asked her, you know where 108 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: did where did you get these? And she said that 109 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: in college she had a roommate who would pick up 110 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: any records she saw on the side of the whee, 111 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: the side of the road that had been left out 112 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: for the trash to take. Um, just knowing that Angela 113 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: liked old records, and because she she didn't have any 114 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: particular discrimination herself this college roommate, but was just a 115 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: sweet person. Almost everything she brought her was, you know, 116 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: mouldy copies of Barber's drysand records. Um, you know, just 117 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: the kind of stuff you would find in goodwill. And 118 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 1: then every once in a while there'd be something that 119 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: was unusual, and um, Angela would dutifully like tuck that 120 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: away because she's like an obsessive record nerd. And so 121 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: for ten years, these records in Turkish just sort of 122 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: sat under her and her TV stand And I said, 123 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: you know, how much do you want for him? And 124 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: she's like, no, no, no, no, no no, no, it's 125 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: it's it's not like that these are for you. Obviously, 126 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: I've been holding onto them for all these years, not 127 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: knowing it was you they were going to. But that's 128 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: who gets them. And so a lot of records have 129 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: come to me like that. A lot of people have 130 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: seeing that I was interested and cared when no one 131 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: else was. And that's really how I wound up with 132 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: a lot of them. When did um records that were 133 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: immigrants from the Ottoman Empire start factoring into that collection? Um, 134 00:07:55,120 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: let me think the first two records that I ever 135 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: bought in Turkish actually bought both of them in uh 136 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: in Boston at a record store that happened to sell 137 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: seventy eight and happened to sell seventy eight in languages 138 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: other than English sometimes um. One was a record made 139 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: about nineteen sixteen by a violinist named Naimed carra Cond. 140 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: The other was a record made about six by a 141 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: nudist and singer named Achilles poulos Um. They were both 142 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: fifty cents plus tax at a record store called Stereo Jack's. 143 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: So those were things that I just had kind of 144 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: lying around as well, this is neat and cool. I 145 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: didn't know what they were. I didn't know what they meant. 146 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:49,599 Speaker 1: And years later, when I stumbled across a box, a 147 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: couple of boxes of records in Greek, I noticed that 148 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: the recording dates and record label catalog numbers were roughly 149 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: about the same. You know, they must have been made 150 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: about the same time, the same place, the same studios. 151 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 1: I figured out New York City, and I go like, wait, 152 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 1: did these people know each other? Was this part of 153 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: a scene? Was there a community here that maybe was 154 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: happening that I haven't heard about? And started asking around 155 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: and looking for stuff that had been written and couldn't 156 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: find much of anything. But with enough asking around and 157 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: enough reading, I figured out that yeah, that's exactly what 158 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: had happened there. There was, in fact a community of 159 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: immigrants from the Near East, and these records were made 160 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: by people who, if they didn't know each other directly, 161 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: certainly new people in common and lived in the same 162 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: world and had very similar experiences being immigrants the United 163 00:09:48,200 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: States at the same time. H. David Weinstein is a 164 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 1: media historian and author who serves as a Senior program 165 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: director for the National Endowment for the Humanities. Without his 166 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: book The Forgotten Network, Dumont and the Birth of American 167 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: Television and his years of dogged research tracking down old 168 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: kinescopes of long lost broadcasts. Our Dumont episode would have 169 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: never been possible. The Dumont television network was once a 170 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: household name, but in six decades off the air, it 171 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: has fallen into deep obscurity. I asked David what it 172 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 1: was about this dusty corner of history that's so captivated him? 173 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: Say hello or something, so we get a little Mike 174 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 1: check for you. Hi. Ex, Dumont is the greatest network ever. 175 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: Did all kinds of amazing, amazing things. It invented sound, 176 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: it invented video, it invented audience, did everything. It's ironic 177 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 1: that the Dumont name is like the punchline of jokes 178 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: about antiquity, right, being that they invented so many features 179 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: that are just like, oh, they were the first ones 180 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: to do that. Everybody does that now. Yeah. Certainly with 181 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: network broadcasting after the war, UH, Dumont and NBC were 182 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: the first ones to even think of a television network, 183 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 1: the idea of broadcasting the same program in multiple cities, 184 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: and Dumont did it in New York and Washington and 185 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: was very much um focused on building that national network. Uh. 186 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: They were among the first to do any kind of 187 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: television programming. They are especially creative during World War Two 188 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: and preparing for the post war explosion in commercial television. UH. 189 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 1: They were also innovative in their daytime schedule. They're innovative 190 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: in some of their business models. For example, rather than 191 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: a single sponsor or paying for and controlling the whole program, 192 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: which was the radio model that went into television, Dumont 193 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: chopped up its program into multiple sponsors, each of which 194 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 1: would have a short segment, which is really the forerunner 195 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: of television advertising as we knew it for much of 196 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: the network era. UH. Dumont also had tons of just 197 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 1: creative programs, many of which we've talked about. Shows like 198 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: The Playing Kloseman, Cavalcades, Stars, even Captain Video I think 199 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: really belongs in that category. So I mean this may 200 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: sound weird. I wrote the book between and two thousand four. 201 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: I was I was younger then, and I was really 202 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: into punk rock and indie rock and UM. I also 203 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: Dumont as a punk rock television network, even though I 204 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: didn't write this. A television itself was very punk rock. 205 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: And what I mean by that it was Dumont was young, creative, 206 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: They were an underdog. They're an outsider in the industry, 207 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: underfunded budget, so they were really creative. It was almost 208 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: amateurish at times, but in that amateurism you found a 209 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: lot of really cool, interesting stuff. There was a sort 210 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:17,719 Speaker 1: of independence among the people who worked there, and there 211 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: was certainly a community from what I've learned in talking 212 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: to people at the network, but there was also a 213 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: sense set in watching the shows you were almost part 214 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: of this sort of weird little community of people who 215 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: were into the same things that you were. Whether it 216 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,599 Speaker 1: was Captain Video and then there was some merchandise related 217 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: to that, or whether it was some of the other 218 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: programs that even now sort of have a cult following 219 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: among TV collectors, among you know, people into all time television. 220 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: It had this sort of many of the Dumont programs 221 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 1: had this sort of weird niche following that continues to 222 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 1: this day. Done it's not rolling night tonight, what do 223 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: you dressed up? Well? Wow, all my friends are here, 224 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 1: I see Andy, Mary cal were from my lame like 225 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: the Garden, Oh my friends ahead and no Minimum again 226 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: a good time. I think it really did come out 227 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: of not just punk but just in general sort of 228 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: liking to mind the history of pop culture for things 229 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: that have been forgotten and don't deserve to be whether 230 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: old music, old movies. I've never been the kind of 231 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: person who just sort of flips on the commercial radio 232 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: station and that's it. I like to figure out where 233 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: things came from, the origins and sort of cool stuff 234 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: that has maybe been overlooked, and Dumont certainly fit that bill. 235 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: And as I learned more, I sort of became seduced 236 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: by some of the programs. In some cases, it is 237 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: because so much of it was live, an ephemeral and 238 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: even the hunt to find them and and find seeing 239 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: things that I felt people hadn't seen in years in 240 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: the live programs that was worth seeing. It was really cool, 241 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: that was really inventive. That helps understand how television became 242 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: so popular. Um when I was doing the research, there 243 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: was still a sense of television had a golden age, 244 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: and they were sort of dramas that were on the 245 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: other networks and stuff like Marty, stuff that had you know, 246 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: survived that was pretty easy to find, or stuff like 247 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: Milton Burrower and Sullivan. And I wanted to take a 248 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: little bit deeper and see what else was going on 249 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: and I get excited when I find cool, different stuff 250 00:15:44,440 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: that helps me connect the past in the present. Sarah 251 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: Wasserman is a professor of English and Culture material Studies 252 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: at the University of Delaware. She has a book coming 253 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: out in called The Death of Things that looks at 254 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: ephemera in twentieth century American fiction. I asked her how 255 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: she ended up as the FEMA teacher. Part of it 256 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: is just that you start doing one thing and it 257 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: has all kinds of offshoots and rabbit holes, and if 258 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: you're curious and maybe a little nutty like I am, 259 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: you tend to tend to follow them instead of staying 260 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: on one focus. But it really started, you know, I 261 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: did a PhD in literature in an English department, and 262 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: I was reading all of these novels, all these American novels, primarily, 263 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: and I was thinking a lot about why there was 264 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: so much stuff in these novels, and then in particular, 265 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: why there's so much disappearing stuff, you know, why our 266 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: novelists writing about pop up buildings and paper that disappears 267 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: and stand collections that go missing and things like that. 268 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: So it started from being someone who liked to read 269 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: and and studying literature in a scholarly way. But I 270 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: wanted to understand why there were these objects and in books, 271 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 1: in fiction, and um that sort of led me to 272 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: doing this material culture stuff. I'm not someone who goes 273 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: primarily to a museum and looks at, you know, American 274 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 1: pewter or a line of teapots. I'm thinking about why 275 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: authors are writing about those objects. But in trying to 276 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: do that, obviously I've I've learned to kind of go 277 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: to the archives, go to collections, look at things that 278 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 1: authors might be writing about, and and try to make 279 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: sense of it. That way working is hardly ever glamorous. 280 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 1: When I was in grad school, I did this dissertation 281 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: writing boot camp over a break where they like lock 282 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:50,680 Speaker 1: you in a room and you have to write. And 283 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: the way they started as we all sat around a 284 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: table and everyone had to go around and say what 285 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: they were working on. And this is at Princeton, brilliant people, 286 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: and everyone's going around and saying what they work on, 287 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: this project on the Revolutionary War whatever. And the woman 288 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: next to me said, I'm writing. I'll see if I 289 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: can remember. I'm writing a dissertation. It's a comparative literature 290 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: dissertation that looks at Chinese, French and German literature and 291 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: it's about the concept of everything. So when did writers 292 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: start thinking about the totality of the world. And I 293 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: had to go after her and just said, yeah, I'm Sarah. 294 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 1: I'm writing a dissertation about trash um. So you know, 295 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: it's important to be to be humble. So I think 296 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: that these objects do teach us a lot and and 297 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 1: make a lot of meaning. But I think part of 298 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,239 Speaker 1: what you're saying in your pitch is that they can 299 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: be overlooked and they can be seen as as minor, 300 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: and so they don't enter the history books as much. 301 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,640 Speaker 1: We need these other formats to explore them. Sarah's interview 302 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: forms the basis of our episode. If what one of 303 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 1: the topics we mentioned is the nine New York World's 304 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: Fair and the Souvenir Craze that a company that ephemeral event, 305 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: which gave me the opportunity to inquire about Sarah's own 306 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: color action. After you came out of Futurama, which was 307 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: General Motors Vision and sort of model city of the future, 308 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: you would get a little button that says I have 309 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: seen the future. That'd be a great button have Do 310 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 1: you have one? I don't have one. I don't have one. 311 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 1: I have a bunch of ahema. You know, when you 312 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: start to work on a phemera, people come and give 313 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: you a phemera as presidents. So I do have quite 314 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: a lot from the Nine Worlds for but I don't 315 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: have one of those pins. They are actually pretty desirable 316 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: collectors items because not not many of them are left, right, 317 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,679 Speaker 1: Please give me just a little audio tour of like 318 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: some of them that you have. Gosh, so I have 319 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: a lot of I don't know how to describe these. 320 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: They're not really a genre that's around anymore. So from 321 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: the fair, I have a lot of souvenir booklets. So 322 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: they're really interesting because I mean it's fair. So they're 323 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: mostly drawn, as you know, they're not photographic records, and 324 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: they take all different forms. So they're like fans with 325 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: the photo of the Paris here and the trial on 326 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: where the two iconic buildings, and they get sort of 327 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 1: put on everything. Um. And there's a lot of you know, 328 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: little drawn books that tell you about the different exhibits 329 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: and their fans. I think I have a kazoo um 330 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: a sewing kit from the fair that someone gave me, 331 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: and then going forward to some of the other ephemera 332 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: that I that I talked about that I've managed to 333 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: sort of get from my own nerdy collection. I have 334 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of stamps. So um, I think I have 335 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: all the stamps that Philip Roth writes about in his 336 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: novel The Plot against America. Um, how many stamps is that? Fifteen? 337 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: They're so, I want to say, and they're They're pretty unusual, 338 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 1: most of them. So, for reasons that I won't necessarily 339 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: go into the main character also called Philip Um collect 340 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: stamps and he he's interested and obviously the ones that 341 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: are more valuable, which tend to be like things with erata. 342 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,479 Speaker 1: So you know, the plane in the middle is printed 343 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: upside down because when they put the stamps through the 344 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: through the printing machine the second time they had a 345 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: positioned the wrong way. Things like that. So I have 346 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: some stamps. Um. I have an interesting I write about 347 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 1: Philip K. Dicks The Man in the High Castle, which 348 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,160 Speaker 1: some of your listeners will know not as a novel 349 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: but as a TV show. And in the novel there's 350 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,200 Speaker 1: this thing UM called cards of War from during the 351 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: Second World War, which are They're they're like playing cards, 352 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: I guess, and on one side they depict a really 353 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: gruesome illustrated scene from a war and on the reverse 354 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: side there you know, there's details about what this battle 355 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 1: was or what this military maneuver was. Um. So they 356 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: really range from you know, the lovely little kazoo to 357 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: the grim war cards. Where you did you collect ephemera 358 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:46,639 Speaker 1: before you became Uh, that's a good question, So my 359 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: answer would be no. But upon thinking about it, I'm 360 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,719 Speaker 1: not a collector. I'm a pretty minimalist person. Um. I 361 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: don't need to Marie condo my house because I've already 362 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 1: tidied as I go. We could talk about my reconduct too, 363 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: But I think about my childhood and and I think 364 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 1: many adults who don't collect in their adult life were 365 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 1: collectors as children, and I certainly was. I had a 366 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: sticker album. I had things that were maybe less ephemeral, 367 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: like a collection of troll dolls, um, a collection of 368 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: Bonnie Bell lips mackers. I like things that you could 369 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 1: organize by color. Um. So now I don't. I don't 370 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 1: collect things like that. I do, though, have a small 371 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:35,439 Speaker 1: collection of strange fortunes from fortune Cookies. So fortunes with 372 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: typos or very odd phrasing in them. Um. But other 373 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: than that, no, I was not. I was not into 374 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: ephemera before I started this research. Do you have a 375 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: favorite strange fortune? Oh? My favorite one is probably this one, 376 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: which just says you are always on our minds. Wow, 377 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: I like I like that. It's yeah, it's collective. Someone's 378 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 1: you know, multiple people who made that cookie are thinking 379 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,640 Speaker 1: of me. I don't know. Maybe would have rather not 380 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: gotten that message. One more thing. When we recorded the 381 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: interview earlier this year, it seemed like everyone was cleaning 382 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: their homes because of a new show on Netflix. I'm 383 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: really interested in the fact that Marie Condo is this 384 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 1: juggernaut right now. And it's not like in the early 385 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: aughts we had Hoarders, the TV show Hoarders, right, and 386 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: it was super pathological. It was like, look at this 387 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: person and all the things they haven't thrown away and 388 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: the cat that died and they didn't even notice because 389 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: they have too much stuff. And Marie Condo was not 390 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: that right. Marie Condo is the show that's done with 391 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: love and care, um, and it's a really non pathologizing 392 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 1: show about people letting go of their stuff. So I wonder, 393 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: as I'm finishing this book, and it's something I've been 394 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: working on for a long time, too long, really, um, 395 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: if there is a shift, if the tide is turning, 396 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: and it might be linked to some of the things 397 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: that you mentioned earlier about digital technology and people getting 398 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: more used to living among less stuff. But I just 399 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 1: think it's a really the time is ripe for for 400 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: this question, for the show, for for these considerations of 401 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: disappearing objects, And I think that the Marie Condo is 402 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: a sort of symptom of that. Elizabeth Cobbs is a 403 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: historian with more qualifications than I could hope to list. 404 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: Stopping through Atlanta on tour for her newest book, The 405 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: Tubman Command, she joined me in studio to talk about 406 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: her work The Hello Worlds America's First Women's Soldiers, which 407 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: tells the stories of brave souls who enlisted as telephone 408 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: operators for the U. S. Army Signal Corps during World 409 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: War One. Our conversation became the episode Switchboard. We actually 410 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: had finished the interview when we're standing outside the booth. 411 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 1: When we got to talking about ephemera specifically, Elizabeth asked 412 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: if we could jump back into recording, and that's where 413 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: the following piece of tape comes from. The way she 414 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: talks about a historian's job of reaching into the past 415 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: is for me what this whole endeavor is all about. 416 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: One of the things we do as historians is we 417 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 1: look at ephemera, which we consider to be the tangible 418 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: material objects that surround documents. So one of the ephemera 419 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: that the Hello Girls had, which to me, was so 420 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: indicative of their sense of humor. I was at Mark 421 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: Howe's home and looking at the things he had collected 422 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,120 Speaker 1: of the Hello Girls, and I found He said, look 423 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: at these tiny binoculars. Now, these tiny binoculars look like 424 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: the size of a penny, like like a little tiny 425 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: charm embracelet, kind of charm that you might wear in 426 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: a bracelet. So I said, oh, those are cute. Aren't 427 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: those cute? And I put them back down. He said, no, no, really, 428 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: look at them, look through them. So I lived at 429 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: these tiny souvenir binoculars that one of the Hello Girls 430 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: had brought back and showed her friends, and I could 431 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: see this little glimmer of light and I said, oh, yes, 432 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: why could see light comes through them? He said, no, 433 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: I really look through them. So I looked through them, 434 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: and on one side of the binoculars there's a naked 435 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: lady holding up a mirror and looking saucily at the 436 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: at the viewer. And the other side of the binocular 437 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 1: there's two naked ladies who are standing in a mirror. 438 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: And there was its French pornography. And so these Hello 439 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 1: girls had this just wild sense of humor, you know 440 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: that that they brought back all kinds of souvenirs, letter 441 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: openers and you know, books and and such things, and 442 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 1: even yes, even a little French pornography. For the heck 443 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 1: of it. They were I'm telling you, the optics on 444 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: this thing were amazing. And that's now, by the way, 445 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: all at the World War One Museum in Kansas City. 446 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: All of these things that that are indicative of the 447 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: women's experience, you know, from their uniforms, to their trench helmets, 448 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: to their gas masks, to their mess kits, to their 449 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: crazy little French pornography, which they found apparently very musing, 450 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: at least one of them did. When you when you 451 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: went out and found these diaries, specifically, what I'm thinking, 452 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: because there's lots of diary entries. I mean, what do 453 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: you get to see the actual Well, yeah, this is 454 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: the interesting thing because since there was no effort really 455 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: to collect these women's experience, I had to go all 456 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: over the place. I had read that there was this attorney, 457 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 1: so I tracked him down in Seattle and flew to 458 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 1: Seattle one day, and he had some boxes and we 459 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 1: went through them, and in one of his boxes I 460 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 1: found a diary. And on the diary it had a 461 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: phone number. So I first of all read this amazing 462 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: diary that no one had ever seen before, and and 463 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: then I called the phone number that was on it, 464 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: and that went to somewhere in Saucelito, which is in California, 465 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 1: in the Bay Area, and and that was a man 466 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: who said, oh, yes, well I my aunt. My aunt 467 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: was a Hello girl, and I have her records. So 468 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: I went and looked at that group of records, and 469 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,199 Speaker 1: in that there was a memoir. In fact, that was 470 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: where I found Merle Eagan's memoir. And and then from 471 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 1: all of that, and then I began to think, I've 472 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: got to get Grace Banker. I've got to get the 473 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 1: woman who led the first contingent was sort of my 474 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: holy Grail and I have a friend who's absolute crackerjack investigator, 475 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: and I said, can you find me a descent of 476 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 1: Grace Banker? And she called me the next day and 477 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: she says, I think they're in a nursing home in 478 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: New Hampshire. So that I'm on the trail of something 479 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 1: in New Hampshire and I get on the phone and 480 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: call this man, old man who calls me back and says, well, yes, 481 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: my my mother in law was Grace Banker and she 482 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: passed away a long time ago. And I said, do 483 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: you have anything of hers? And he said, well, well, 484 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: we have a diary. Now. I had seen references to 485 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: a ten page diary excerpt that Grace Banker had once published, 486 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: and I thought it might be the whole thing. So 487 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: I said, how many pages is it? And he said, well, 488 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: it's a it's about ninety pages. And so then I 489 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: knew I had a book. I knew I had a 490 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: book because I had Grace Banker's diary, the diary of 491 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: Bertha Hunt, who was a signal cooperator from Berkeley, California, 492 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: and Merle Eagan's memoirs, and that combined with the Army 493 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 1: personnel records in St. Louis and the army records in 494 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,959 Speaker 1: the United States Archives in Washington, d C. And then 495 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: the newspaper records. You know, I was on the trail 496 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 1: of a real book. When you've got that diary and 497 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: you're like, you're really literally like holding it right, and 498 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: you're maybe the only person that's ever edit or at 499 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: least read it in what seventy years or something. We're 500 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: reading maybe a hundred years. I mean people, you know, 501 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: Grace Banker came back and she put it in her trunk. 502 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: And I was talking with her granddaughter when I was 503 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: first telling the family about my interest in their you know, 504 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: their their mother or grandmother, and um, she said to me, 505 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: Caroline Timby, she said, well, I have my grandmother's trunk, 506 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: but I've never looked in it. So I said, oh, 507 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: my gosh, you have FaceTime. I have an iPhone? Do 508 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: you have an iPhone? So we're we're bringing each other's 509 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: faces up where we're talking each other and looking at 510 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: each other, and I say, well, let's can I see 511 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: the trunk too. So she walks me on my iPhone 512 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: into her grandmother's store in the family storage and there's 513 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: a green trunk, this green leather army trunk that stamped 514 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: U S Signal Corps Grace Banker. And she lifts the 515 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: lid and there's grandma's stack of letters, and there's grandma's 516 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: trench helmet, and there's grandma's gas masks and mess kit 517 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: and and uniform. And this trunk has not been opened 518 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: and we don't know how many decades, and suddenly it's 519 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: just all there. It's like this you know, magic trunk. 520 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: It's like a treasure chest as and and so the 521 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: family is now donated most of it to the World 522 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: War One Museum in Kansas City, but I think there 523 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: are pieces of it they just you know, they just 524 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: can't unclench their fists and let go off because it 525 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: is you know, it says treasured memento. But there's something 526 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: like holding that handwritten note that who knew, who knew 527 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: of whould ever be read again? Maybe you know you're 528 00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: seeing it for the first time in a hundred years. 529 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: It's like a do you feel like a psychic link back? 530 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: I do? I you know, it's okay, here's a weird thing. 531 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: The historian to me, it's like the dead or present 532 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: with us, you know they are We'll be dead too 533 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: soon enough, and we'll leave our own ephemera. So I 534 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: always feel like writing history is like reaching through this 535 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: beaded curtain and and and holding someone's hand who's on 536 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: the other side, you know, trying to bring them closer 537 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: so we can see them. Hope that doesn't sound too ghoulish, 538 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: but to me, it just feels very intimate and personal. 539 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: With every book I've written, you know, it's it's always 540 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: I'm there to to meet them. I mean, there to 541 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: meet Harriet Tubman, there to meet Alexander Hamilton. I've written 542 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: a couple of novels on those and some other people 543 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: as well, and and I always just you know, that's 544 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: I feel my mission, and the mission of historian is 545 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: get the dead to stand up and walk, you know, 546 00:31:50,520 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: tell the story. My sincerest gratitude to Elizabeth Cobbs, Sarah Wasserman, 547 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: David Weinstein, Ian Nagaski, and all our other amazing guests 548 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: this season for lending their credibility to our fledgling podcast. Finally, 549 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: we wanted to say thanks to you for, instead of 550 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: the infinite amount of other things you could be doing, 551 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 1: choosing to listen without you. There's no show if you 552 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: feel so inclined, drop us a line, let us a 553 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,239 Speaker 1: little review, hit us up on social media. We'd love 554 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: to hear from you. Learn more about everything you heard 555 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: here at ephemeral dot Show. For more podcasts from I 556 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 557 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.