1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Body Dogs with Joseph Scott More. 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 2: They say that a man is only as good as 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 2: his word. I've heard other people say that, you know, 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 2: you come into this world with an untainted name, and 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 2: how you maintain it throughout life is how you will 6 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 2: be remembered. I don't like to tell untruth. I don't 7 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 2: like to prevaricate. I don't like to lie. So please, 8 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 2: I beg of you right now, give me grace. I 9 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 2: had every intention of never mentioning this person's name again, 10 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,599 Speaker 2: because I gotta tell you I'm kind of over it. 11 00:00:53,960 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 2: But for this episode of Body Bags, I shall relent 12 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 2: and I shall utter the name Ryan Coburger. And this 13 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 2: is why there have been multiple developments over this past week. 14 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 2: As I'm talking to you right now, and I know 15 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:20,759 Speaker 2: this breaks, this violates every rule taping of anything. You're 16 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 2: never supposed to date yourself, but I have to give 17 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 2: it to you. It's August twenty second, twenty twenty five 18 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: right now, is I'm stating this, And there's just been 19 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 2: a continuous stream of information coming out. But one thing 20 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 2: that people have kind of passed over that I'd like 21 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 2: to address, among other things in this discussion today. It 22 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 2: has to do with DNA, and it also has to 23 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 2: do with some folks that I hold near and dear 24 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 2: to my heart. And that's author em lapse. So let's 25 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 2: have a chat, shall we? Coming to you from the 26 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 2: beautiful campus of Jacksonville State University. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 27 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: and this is Bodybacks, Dave. I know you heard me 28 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 2: say it said that I wasn't going to say the 29 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 2: name again. I'm going to try to retreat from it, 30 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 2: not mention the name as much as I you know, 31 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 2: there's something within you. You know, you have to reference something specifically, 32 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: you have to refer back. I'm just I'm sick to 33 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: my back teeth of hearing the name, of hearing about him, 34 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 2: and you know all the goings on and everything else 35 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 2: that we've talked about over this past week, you and 36 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: I both have because we've been on multiple platforms. You know, 37 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 2: people ask questions. I'm not going to turn them down 38 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 2: right if I have an opportunity to go on to 39 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: the media, But. 40 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 3: In your defense, I can say something, what's that For 41 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 3: a lot of us, You're the only one that can 42 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 3: explain some of these things in a way that a 43 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 3: I can understand and be entertaining enough so that I 44 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 3: can actually enjoy learning, you know, the science. And that 45 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 3: is what I appreciate about what you do whenever you 46 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 3: are making appearances. Yes, this Coburger case, it just won't stop, 47 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 3: but mainly because when we first came to it, it 48 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 3: was evil that fell on college students and very successful 49 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 3: college students. That's something people have got to remember. In 50 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 3: particular with Maddie and Kaylee. You know, they were both 51 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 3: Kaylee was already gone from college. She'd already gotten her 52 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 3: you know, she already got all the credit she needed 53 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 3: for her degree. Mattie was on track graduating in four years. 54 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 3: Most people don't do it in five. Xana and Ethan 55 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 3: were both doing well, and here they are destroyed in 56 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 3: the middle of the night. In this case, they go 57 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 3: to college and die in the most violent, ambitious way. 58 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 3: And now we know who did it, and I don't 59 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 3: think we know the why, except that sometimes evil exists 60 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 3: in people, and that's it's not a cop out to 61 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 3: say that this is an evil man doing evil things. 62 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 3: And he wouldn't have stopped. I dare say. When we 63 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 3: saw the video Joe of the car the night when 64 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 3: he kept driving around to the block and we'd go 65 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 3: back down. He was building up his courage to go 66 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 3: and attank girls in their sleep. 67 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 2: Brother, we are so on the same shoot of music 68 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 2: with that, because I felt like the same thing and 69 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 2: it wasn't because we both know that that's the only 70 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: explanation for because we both know he did a really 71 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 2: horrid job of surveillance. Because if he, if he had done, 72 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 2: if he had been a success at surveillance, he would 73 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 2: have had an awareness that there was more than one 74 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 2: or two people in the how right, So you know, 75 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 2: he failed miserably at that. But every time I saw 76 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: a I called it the other day, I think I 77 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 2: was on some platform or referred to it as a revolution. 78 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 2: You know, it's like a revolution around that spot. And 79 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 2: he kept passing in front of the camera, and I think, 80 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 2: I think you're right. You know, he is trying to 81 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 2: build up the courage in order to do this thing 82 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 2: that in my estimation, he was sitting sitting around you know, 83 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 2: his little hole in the wall apartment there in Pullman Uh, 84 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 2: fantasizing about you know, everything, everything that you know he 85 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 2: wanted he wanted to do, he wanted to accomplish, and 86 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 2: what a horrible marker for an individual to leave behind 87 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 2: that you know you're you're actually just think I twisted it. 88 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 2: Just for a second, just pause, put it on pause, 89 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 2: and just think how twisted this is that you would 90 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 2: sit around and just you know, kind of meditate on this. 91 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 2: And that's what it comes down to, you know, trying 92 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 2: to be focused on it and do all this thing. 93 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 2: And look, I mean a lot of us, you know, 94 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 2: we try to seek out I think, good things to 95 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 2: think about, many of us. I mean, it's a world 96 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 2: that's crammed with anxiety and fear and all those sort 97 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 2: of things. But in the moments that we have a free, 98 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 2: a free moment, you know, you sit there and you think, well, 99 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have really be nice if I could be 100 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 2: with my grandkids right now, or if I could be 101 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 2: at the beach with the ones I love and just 102 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 2: hanging out and listening to seagulls, And you know, you 103 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 2: create this fantasy in your mind. The next thing you know, 104 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 2: your your wife is buying a thousand dollars worth of 105 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 2: airline tickets. But I'm just saying, I'm just saying that, 106 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: you know, those are those are the things that I think, 107 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 2: and I'll use the word normal, I don't give to 108 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 2: dand what you think that's what normal people think about, 109 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 2: you know, they think about doing something that's edifying. It 110 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 2: doesn't have to be going to the beach. It could 111 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 2: be improving yourself in some way. And it's parallel existence 112 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 2: that he kind of lived in this fantasy world with. 113 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 2: And I got to tell you, I think that it 114 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 2: was he was acting out of fantasy and it's a 115 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 2: gruesome fantasy and then trying to be this wellspring of 116 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 2: knowledge that he purported to be among all the other 117 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 2: you know, people that are you know, just kind of 118 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 2: you're beneath me kind of thing. And as it turned out, brother, 119 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 2: he he wasn't too damn smart, now, was he? What 120 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 2: an idiot? 121 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: You know, Joe? 122 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 3: When you and I have looked at this case deeper 123 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 3: than any other case I've done, and I had to 124 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 3: cover it more. And what we have found in there 125 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 3: in the last couple of weeks where Moscow ped is 126 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 3: releasing the information that we would have seen at trial, 127 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 3: they're not releasing things that would not have been in 128 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 3: the public eye. Everything we have on this would have 129 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 3: come out of trial. One of the things that that 130 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 3: actually has come to the forefront this week, of course, 131 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 3: is he's after his first night in jail. He was 132 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 3: complaining because, as we had been told, he was getting 133 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 3: terrorized twenty four to seven different inmates taking turns just 134 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 3: talking to him through the events and saying horrible things. 135 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 3: To believe me, this is a guy who is not 136 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 3: where he thought he was going to be, and you know, 137 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 3: he's been threatened with sexual assault. And I was just 138 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:22,559 Speaker 3: reminded of Kayleganzova's mother passing along what her younger sister 139 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 3: had to say. I think her name's Audrey. 140 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: She said, you know, you. 141 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 3: Might have gotten big AAA might have been you might 142 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 3: have gotten big A pluses in college, but now you're 143 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 3: going to get big d's in prison. And a lot 144 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 3: of us have enjoyed hearing that, you know, knowing what 145 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 3: this man did. There are certain aspects of this investigation, Joe, 146 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 3: because it's one thing to emotionally go through life. It's 147 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 3: another to get a conviction at trial. And when you 148 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 3: go to trial, it can't be well. This guy was 149 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 3: a goober that you know, said weird things to girls 150 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 3: in bars. This guy was just kind of creepy. He 151 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 3: thought he was better than everybody else. You know this guy. 152 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 3: It doesn't matter, It doesn't matter. All those things are 153 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 3: just emotional things or attitudes or opinions about the type 154 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 3: of person he was. When it comes right down to it, 155 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 3: you have to forensically put him in that room, in 156 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 3: that time period, and with the people who are dead, 157 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 3: and with the You've got to have the crime. I mean, 158 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 3: you've got to have the tool of the crime, in 159 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 3: this case, a knife. The only thing they had was 160 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 3: the knife sheath. Yeah, they didn't have the knife. We 161 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 3: still don't have the knife. 162 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: No, we don't. And you know, still Kimming and I 163 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 2: were sitting around talking about over coffee the other day. 164 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 2: If you think you if you think I hate saying 165 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 2: his name, oh my lord, my wife, Oh my gosh. 166 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 2: You know, she's a mama. And you know, we've we've 167 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 2: got kids that we've got friends that have kids to sage. 168 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 2: We're right in that sweet spot where you know, all 169 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 2: of our all of our friends that we have, our 170 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 2: network of friends, the lawn share them. Their kids have 171 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 2: either just finished college or they're in the middle of college. 172 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 2: So you know, I cannot and I would not presume 173 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 2: to say that I would ever identify with these families 174 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 2: on any level. However, I can say that you kind 175 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 2: of understand, you know, the anger that rises up in 176 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 2: a generation of folks, you know, like me and my 177 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 2: wife and you you know, we're approximately the same age, 178 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 2: and you know, and you it's it's very real. It's 179 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 2: very real, you know, relative to that. And so we 180 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 2: were talking about it the other day and she, you know, 181 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 2: she had she had talked about I think, what if, 182 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 2: you know, there were these what if scenarios that that 183 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 2: you know, kind of are running, you know, through her mind, 184 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 2: and I've entertained them in the past. What if they 185 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 2: had just taken a turn in another direction from an 186 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 2: evidentiary standpoint, and the whole thing could be lost, you know, 187 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 2: you know, up up and smoke in a second, and 188 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 2: you and what if you know, somebody had mishandled that sheath. 189 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 2: What if they hadn't gone with the data that they 190 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 2: could recover off of that phone. What if some misstep 191 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 2: had happened, you know, if maybe the wrong people got 192 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,319 Speaker 2: involved in the investigation along the way, which, by the way, 193 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 2: I'm still waiting on that internal investigation. I want to 194 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 2: know who released that information. And I will never stop 195 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 2: wanting to know about that bit, and they say that 196 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 2: it's it's ongoing, and I've heard that it is something 197 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 2: that's an active investigation, wanting to know who the leaker 198 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 2: was and the prosecutor. Now get this, the prosecutor and 199 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 2: the police are not involved in this, the people that 200 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 2: work the case because they don't know who did it. 201 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 2: So this is a separate investigation that's going on at 202 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 2: this time. 203 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 3: Talk about it, but that's an actual investigation. We can trust, 204 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 3: I think. 205 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so, and we'll you know, we'll see, 206 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 2: because look, at the end of the day, there were 207 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 2: a lot of things about this case that you didn't 208 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 2: really I'm not going to say that you mistrusted, are distrusted. 209 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 2: I think that it's a fact that we got so 210 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 2: much information coming at us at one time from various sources. 211 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,199 Speaker 2: I got to tell you, you reveal something to me today 212 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 2: that I didn't hear about prior to our conversation. You know, 213 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 2: that started about an hour ago we started chatting, and 214 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 2: that completely changes the complexion of this case. And it's 215 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 2: a prime example of some of the data that was 216 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 2: released at that particular time, or when I say released, 217 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 2: I think that it's data that was pushed out that's 218 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 2: not necessarily accurate, but yet it drove a narrative. It 219 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 2: drove a narrative that a lot of people believed for 220 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 2: a long time until you discover the proof that's truly 221 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 2: in the pudding. David, I don't. I don't ingest everything 222 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: that comes in across my desk in the media. You're 223 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 2: much better at it than I am, because it's it's 224 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 2: what you do. You've got so many hats that you 225 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 2: wear and you you literally folks, I don't know if 226 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 2: you know this, Dave. Dave gets granular, I mean incredibly 227 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 2: granular with details because he is tasked with so many things. 228 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 2: I'm the least of things. Just think about having to 229 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 2: do these things for the production of Nancy Show, and 230 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: Dave really does deep dives. Uh, And Dave, I had 231 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 2: I had yet to see the bodycam footage and until 232 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 2: just just a bit ago, and you kind of drop 233 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 2: drop some info on me with this, and I was, 234 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 2: I was amazed by it. Can you please expand expand 235 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 2: on the and give us an example of how one 236 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 2: misstep or one wrong word can completely influence. 237 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 3: The weird part about the bodycam footage that we're talking 238 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 3: about that is now out. First of all, you have 239 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 3: a scene that makes no sense. Six people learn that 240 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 3: how in that home? Four or dead, two or alive? 241 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: What we now know. 242 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 3: Dylan Mortenson I knew a whole lot more about what 243 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 3: took place and told police on that On that day, 244 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 3: bodycam footag shows Dylan Mortenson talking about what was going 245 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 3: on in the home and she describes hearing She says 246 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 3: it was Kaylee. 247 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 1: Okay. 248 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 3: Dylan Mortensen tells the police that she heard Kaylee say 249 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 3: somebody's in the house, and that it wasn't just a silent, 250 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 3: it was a scream. Somebody's in the house, and she 251 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 3: ran up and down the stairs, and Dylan is saying, Kaylee, 252 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 3: and we know that it was just misspoken. It was 253 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 3: not intentional or wilful. It was emotional and you can 254 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 3: hear in her voice she mistaken Zanna or Kaylee. Kayleegan's 255 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 3: office and Madison Morgan were up on the third floor 256 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 3: in that bedroom by themselves. What Dylan heard was somebody 257 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 3: is here in the house, and it wasn't a happy 258 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 3: somebody's here. That was part one, Part two. She heard 259 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 3: Kaylee running up and down the stairs and it was 260 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 3: of course like I said, she says Kaylee crystal clear, 261 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 3: but she meant Xana. It was just a misspeak. But Joe, 262 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 3: the way she's telling the story now, and you know, 263 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 3: this is a eleven forty five, when it's about noon, 264 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 3: twelve thirty somewhere in the day this took place, the 265 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 3: attack took place eight hours before. She's talking to police. 266 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 3: Understand that she's describing something that happened at four fifteen 267 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 3: in the morning, Joe hearing a man is in our house, 268 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 3: hearing Kaylee run down the stairs, hearing her fall, and 269 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 3: then she describes the person that she sees, somebody she 270 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 3: doesn't know, wearing a mask over part of his head, 271 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 3: wearing black and leaves and doesn't call for help. That's 272 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 3: what we now know. 273 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: We know that. 274 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 3: Here's the other part. When the body cam footage picks up. 275 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 3: The other officers have been on scene. One has already 276 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 3: been in the house, and there are a number of 277 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 3: students at the facility. They're at the house, but they 278 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,479 Speaker 3: have not really gone around in there. We know that 279 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 3: one of the young men who came over because the 280 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:18,479 Speaker 3: original description was that a girl has passed out and 281 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 3: she's not waking up like you know, alcohol drunk kind 282 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 3: of thing, and Ethan was in the bed and they 283 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 3: didn't look at him. But when police come in there 284 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 3: a lot of the younger people that have been in 285 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 3: the house already, they don't know what's going on. They 286 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 3: don't know that anybody's dead. They know that something not 287 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 3: good is happening, possibly an overdose. You know, they're not 288 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 3: they don't. There's not blood all over the living room, 289 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 3: there's not blood splatter everywhere that they can see, and 290 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 3: so they're standing and when the police arrived, they actually 291 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 3: get them out of the building, get out out in 292 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 3: the parking lot, and when the officer goes through the house, 293 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 3: he thinks that it's just Xanna and Ethan. It was 294 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 3: only after a police officer went in and decided, well, 295 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 3: we got to clear the whole building. You know, that's 296 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 3: one of the things police do. You don't just take 297 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 3: for granted that you have a dead body here and 298 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 3: everything else is okay. You have to go through room 299 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 3: by room, door by door, closet by closet, everything has 300 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:17,719 Speaker 3: to be opened and cleared. 301 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 2: Yep. 302 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 3: It was during that process that they find on the 303 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 3: third floor Kayley and Maddie, and that's when it really 304 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 3: becomes a tough time. And that's when they radio from 305 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 3: inside the house to outside, and the kids across that 306 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 3: are the college kids that are there. Hear them say 307 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 3: we have four dead bodies. Yeah, and then you immediately 308 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 3: hear weeping, the gnashing of teeth because they didn't know and. 309 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 2: I had no idea, No they had yeah, And look, 310 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 2: I can't listen whatever. However Dylan happened to misspeak at 311 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 2: that point in Tom. I'm not going to cast aspersions, 312 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 2: no doing that, because I can't tell you how I 313 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 2: would react. I've seen how people react, you know, when 314 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 2: they're when when they have borne witness to traumatic events. 315 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 2: And I know that stories can change and they change because, 316 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 2: first off, in that kind of haze in the beginning, 317 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 2: when things are going on, you don't know what's real 318 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 2: and what's not real. I mean, it's it's a surreal. 319 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 2: It's truly a surreal environment to be in. And that's 320 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 2: what you know she's dealing with at that point in time. 321 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 2: And then and then you're having to talk to law 322 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 2: enforcement on top of it. So that's enough to put 323 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 2: anybody's nerves on edge most of the time. So you've 324 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 2: got this frenetic environment. You know, it's me. And then 325 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 2: you introduce more people into the environment and it's you 326 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 2: know you, like you said, weeping, a gnashing of teeth, 327 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 2: this sort of thing, and it kind of drives, drives 328 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 2: a narrative. And imagine this for a long time. Because 329 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:05,880 Speaker 2: this information leaked out, and it was leaked out based 330 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 2: upon what she had said on that tape, we don't 331 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 2: really know what the original what the origin of that was, 332 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 2: or the source of it. But as it turns out, 333 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 2: it wasn't It wasn't Kaylee, it was Anna. And imagine this. 334 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 2: I want to transport everybody back into your mind just 335 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,719 Speaker 2: for a second. Think about it. If you've ever lived 336 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 2: in a house with a staircase, Dave looking at you, 337 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 2: because you got kids, you can tell when people are 338 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 2: coming up and down staircases, yep. And I mean all 339 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 2: of us have a particular way of walking. But if 340 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 2: you're in a frantic moment and we've all heard people, 341 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 2: maybe many of us have running down a staircase, can 342 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 2: you imagine this hearing the thump thump thump, thump thump 343 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 2: like that, There's somebody in the house, you know, and 344 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 2: they're screaming this out. Well, you know, you and I 345 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 2: were chatting just just a few moments back, you know 346 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,640 Speaker 2: about Yeah, I think Xenna met him on the staircase 347 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: and I bought that for a while. And he begins 348 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 2: attacking her, and he's probably attacking her before she ever 349 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 2: makes it back into the bedroom, and she's fighting like 350 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 2: a hellcat, you know. And this is after he's done 351 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 2: everything upstairs, and mind you, after he has forgotten the 352 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 2: sheath that's upstairs, that's laying on the bed adjacent to 353 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 2: the bodies. That bit right there is in my estimation, 354 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 2: I think, and I'll kind of explain this as we 355 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 2: go along, but in my estimation, I believe that if 356 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 2: it were not for that sheath and that bit of 357 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 2: DNA that was found on that snap, it pointed in 358 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 2: such a direction based upon the DNA technology that was 359 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 2: utilized that if that had not been treated with kid 360 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 2: gloves and it had not been examined in the appropriate way, 361 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 2: guess what all of the stuff relative to Celbright that 362 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 2: has come out with the phone, It never would come out. 363 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 2: It never would have come out. And here's what I'm thinking. 364 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 2: This is like a series of dominoes evidentiary dominoes, and 365 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 2: the first domino that had to fall was going to 366 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 2: be that bit of DNA that was recovered in that DNA. 367 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: Think about this, we're talking in molecular terms, something that 368 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 2: can't be seen, something you can't see with the unaided eye. 369 00:22:54,200 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 2: That bit of biological material that was deposited on that 370 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: sheath and on that snap was the key to everything 371 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 2: else that turned this case to the point where Coburger 372 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 2: was taken off the streets. I really want to give 373 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 2: credit where credit is due. And one thing that has, 374 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 2: you know, kind of caught my eye is Dave an 375 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 2: interview that jeff Ny the prosecutor, gave in regards to 376 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 2: his involvement with Coburger's case, and you know kind of 377 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 2: how this went down for him. And he had taken 378 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 2: the lead. He's part of the prosecutorial team, and he 379 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 2: had taken the lead really of from the perspective of 380 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 2: the DNA, how was it going to be? 381 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: You know? 382 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 2: And he I think that he understood that that was 383 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 2: going to be the lynch pin, and he lays it 384 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:13,959 Speaker 2: out really well. And you know, they knew that they 385 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 2: had a sample of DNA, they knew that it was 386 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 2: existent upon upon that sheath they had recovered it from. 387 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question about that, Joe. 388 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 3: All Right, when I think of DNA, I think of 389 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 3: a liquid or some some substance that I can actually 390 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 3: see or you know, it can recognize. But when you're 391 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 3: talking about finding a knife sheath, Yeah, when you go 392 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,360 Speaker 3: to search something like that for DNA, what's the process? 393 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 3: Because it's just a leather or plastic thing that has 394 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 3: something and now it's laying there, how do you go 395 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 3: about trying to determine if there's anything on this very carefully? 396 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 2: Just you look like dusky for friends, smart alec. But yeah, 397 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 2: it's like no, no, not at all. They'll regionalize that 398 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 2: that the sheath itself. They'll literally break it down to 399 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 2: the segments. Okay, And so this is you know, one 400 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 2: of the matter of fact. Greg Hampekian, who I know 401 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 2: who is a DNA scientist at Boise State there in Idaho. 402 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 2: And I've worked with Greg before, actually years ago when 403 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 2: he was still in Georgia. Great, great guy in brilliant mind. 404 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 2: One of his problems with the Idaho case is that 405 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 2: it's the single source that was collected. And you've heard 406 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 2: about the Q tips with Q tip is actually used 407 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 2: to collect you know, to collect this and he's talking, 408 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 2: you know, one of his because DNA is so delicate, 409 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 2: he's he has opined that that bit could have been 410 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 2: picked up from another location. And there's no there's no 411 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 2: foolproof way of saying that you can. It's not like 412 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 2: drawing blood from somebody's arm. Okay, all right, you see 413 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 2: what I'm saying. You can. You can have it like 414 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 2: you sit here, fele the bottomus comes and draws a blood, 415 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 2: you know, from your arm, or you take a sample 416 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 2: blood from the finger or whatever it is that you do, 417 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 2: and you can validate that. But you've got an unknown 418 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 2: and you're introducing this Q tip into this space. Could 419 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 2: it have been drug across another surface where Coburger's DNA 420 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 2: may have been or something similarly, you know, something a 421 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 2: familial relationship in that environment, and it seems really far fetched, 422 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 2: but that's that's the scientific mind working, you know, How 423 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 2: how do you make this fool proof? And he suggests 424 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 2: that it is not a fool proof methodology. They did 425 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 2: a great job of recovering it. And I think that 426 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 2: that's one of the things that n I was looking at, 427 00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 2: you know, with this case, could he sell it? And 428 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 2: here's the problem they had. Our friends at AUTHRAM and 429 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 2: you and I talk about them all the time. I'm 430 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 2: an AUTHORAM evangelist. I guess you'd say, because I believe 431 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 2: in what they do. I'll always say that, you know, 432 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 2: because there's nothing like getting the the unidentified identified. But Dave, 433 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 2: most of the cases that AUTHORAM is involved in are 434 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 2: cold cases. As matter of fact, I think the line's 435 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 2: share of them are. And they have helped solve homicides. 436 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 2: We've covered them on this show, have we or have 437 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 2: we have? And it's not just unidentified bodies. They've gotten 438 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 2: involved with old homicide cases that haven't been cleared and 439 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 2: they've found solutions. There's people that have gotten they've gotten 440 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 2: a conviction based upon this IgG the investigative genetic genealogy 441 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 2: process that they've developed. But here's the thing. Authors in 442 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 2: the middle of this thing, and this is kind of 443 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 2: behind the scenes. Look at this, authors in the middle 444 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 2: of doing their examination based upon those open source DNA 445 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 2: databases that we've heard a lot about that that authorm uses. Okay, 446 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 2: they're not going to go into a pay set. You know, 447 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 2: these closed these closed organizations, you know to get it. 448 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 2: And look, this is one of the big things that 449 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 2: people fear. I'll fear it. Man, all right, where if 450 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: you donature, are you submitted DNA sample? You know, and 451 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,719 Speaker 2: it's a closed loop where nobody else can get access 452 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 2: to it. You know, you're worried that if this creeps out, 453 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 2: they're going to be able to find information about me. 454 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 2: And you'd made we had this conversation. I'd like you. 455 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 2: I take an issue with anybody that says that, you know, 456 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 2: if you have nothing to hide, if you have nothing 457 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 2: to hide, you shouldn't you know, Well, you can take 458 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 2: your logic and stuff it, because it's I don't believe 459 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 2: in that. 460 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: There's always a marked Ferman in the hood. 461 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 3: There's always a marked Furman behind it brush somewhere with 462 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 3: a bloody glove to drop on you. 463 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I look at it that way, and 464 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 2: I look at it from the perspective of it's not 465 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 2: just that bit of DNA knowledge that could, you know, 466 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 2: attach somebody to a crime. I'm thinking about all the 467 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 2: other things that it can be used for. Looking at you, 468 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 2: insurance companies. You know, if I have a predisposition to 469 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 2: some kind of genetic problem, you know, relative to a 470 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 2: particular type of cancer. You're going to deny any care. 471 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 2: You know, you get off into all this esterica. It's 472 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 2: not really esterica. I think this is legitimate. So the 473 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 2: author wasn't doing anything wrong. They're doing their same process. Well, 474 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 2: the FBI inserts himself into this, and even though it's 475 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 2: clearly stated in their handbook and in press releases that 476 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 2: they are not going to use non open source methods 477 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 2: of doing you know, investigative genetic genealogy, guess what they did. 478 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 2: They did in this case, and that was with Nie 479 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 2: the prosecutor. That was the big bugaboo for him that 480 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 2: he had to get this past the court and argue 481 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 2: this thing before the judge, because you know, he had 482 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 2: plainly stated that if Hipler the judge had shot this 483 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 2: bit of evidence down, then this was a house of 484 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 2: cards that would fall relative to this evidence. That this 485 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 2: evidence that they're trying to build out. That's the reason 486 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 2: I said the cellbright stuff, okay, because it's from that 487 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 2: one bit of DNA that you find on the button 488 00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 2: snap that they may have suspected coburger, but it was 489 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 2: confirmatory to them. So once that's confirmed through, let's just 490 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 2: face it these astronomical numbers that you come back with 491 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 2: with a DNA fingerprint. It's from that point that they 492 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,479 Speaker 2: begin going back and pulling cell logs, and they're tracking 493 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 2: this guy now and Celebright. Thing may have never happened. 494 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 2: It may have. I don't know. There's no way to 495 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 2: predict it, but you can see how it could fall. 496 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: It could all circumstantial. 497 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,959 Speaker 3: I've always wondered about a circumstantial case, you know, because 498 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 3: you've got you mentioned Celbright. Let's just stay for the 499 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 3: sake of argument. If they don't have that DNA on 500 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 3: that on that knife sheath, then they don't get him. 501 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 3: Six weeks later at home, they don't get They don't 502 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 3: follow him and see that he's actually touching garbage with 503 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 3: gloves on and putting it in baggies and zipping it 504 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 3: and putting in other people's trash cans. They don't have 505 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 3: all of this behavior that is really suspect. They don't 506 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 3: have all of the things that they were able to 507 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 3: put together on this guy. Remember remember when his dad 508 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 3: flew to Idaho, drives it with him back from Idaho 509 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 3: to Pennsylvania. Olberger had already lost all of his funding. 510 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 3: He'd already had his PhD funding pull because of the 511 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 3: jerk that he was nothing to do with this case. 512 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 3: He wasn't publicly mentioned at that point. He lost that 513 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 3: on December nineteenth, had his funding pull. He was no 514 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 3: longer going to be a TA. He had lost his PA. 515 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: He was done. He was actually going home for good. 516 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: He wasn't coming back. 517 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 2: It wasn't no comeback, I don't think. I mean, maybe 518 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 2: he was going to come back and collect some of 519 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 2: his things, but you know, his academic life at that 520 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 2: point was dead. At in the state. They wouldn't touch 521 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 2: him with a vaccinated crowbar. No, I'm serious, No, I'm 522 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 2: just saying the staff there because this guy, this guy 523 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,959 Speaker 2: is you talk about throwing a wrench into the system. 524 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 2: You know that that whole ecosystem of the PhD environment 525 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 2: can be thrown into total and complete chaos with somebody. 526 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 2: They're not going to take a chance on this guy 527 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 2: any longer. 528 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: So what happens with this Joe. 529 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 3: You got the DNA and you've got the proof on 530 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 3: the sheath. They had to pull in help from AUTHORAM 531 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 3: to do the genetic genealogy that you. 532 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and initially they had them working on this. Okay, 533 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 2: just But then the FBI steps in and they are 534 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,520 Speaker 2: using their wanting to use the non open source DNA, 535 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 2: and that's that's how you know it led to this apparently, 536 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 2: and or it's one of the elements that Jeff n 537 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 2: I was considering, you know, when he's he's making this 538 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 2: argument before Judge Heppler, because he knew that this thing 539 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 2: would implode. Perhaps if look, if he if the judge 540 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 2: says no, you can't do this, you can't do this, 541 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 2: everything else collapses around it. And that's isn't it amazing? 542 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: How goodness? 543 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 2: Maybe I'm being dramatic here, but this one bit of 544 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 2: molecular or material all right, that most people don't even 545 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 2: give a thought of a thought to, and it's hard, 546 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 2: it's even hard many times for me to understand. They 547 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 2: if it wasn't for that little bit, none of the 548 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,759 Speaker 2: rest of it would happen in the sequence in which 549 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 2: it did happen. Maybe at some point in time they 550 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 2: would have caught him based upon other evidence it was developed, 551 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 2: or whatever the case might have been. But this little twist, 552 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 2: and we're kind of an interesting crossroads legally, Dave, you know, 553 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 2: moving forward, because the investigative genetic genealogy is game changer. 554 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 2: We know this, you know, just going back to you know, 555 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 2: to Golden State with the Golden State Killer. I mean, 556 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 2: we knew that that was a game changer, just simply 557 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 2: based on that, and how many of these other cases 558 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:02,919 Speaker 2: now after, you know, And I remember several years ago 559 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 2: when I was at crime Con, I was actually on 560 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:13,720 Speaker 2: a panel with four of the surviving members of Golden 561 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 2: State Killer and the daughter of the girl that was 562 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 2: spending the night away. I don't know if you remember 563 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 2: the story. She was spending the night away and both 564 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 2: her her mother and her mother's boyfriend were murdered that night. 565 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 2: I was on a panel with them, and I've got 566 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 2: this great photo of them that I took at crime Con, 567 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 2: and they've all got their backs to the camera and 568 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 2: they're all hanging a bird at the picture of of 569 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 2: they had an image hanging there. This is after they 570 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 2: had caught it an adjudicated thing, and all these victims, 571 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 2: victims are shooting a bird at the image of the 572 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 2: Golden State Killer. It's like this classic image that happened 573 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 2: to capture at that moment time. But going all the 574 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 2: way back to then, we knew that the playing field 575 00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 2: had changed. But I tell you, with the the the 576 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 2: FBI kind of changing their rules midstream with this case, 577 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 2: and they really haven't talked about it a lot. They 578 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 2: really haven't at this point about what they did. We 579 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 2: know that there there are internal standards that they have 580 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 2: at the lab where you know, they say, we're not 581 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 2: going to do this, but yet here we are. You 582 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,839 Speaker 2: know they did and co workers. Coburger is no longer 583 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 2: among us, you know, you know, he's out living out 584 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 2: his days out there, you know, waiting for whatever come. 585 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: What may. 586 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 2: You know, I'll put to you this way, I would 587 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 2: not want to be receiving. Uh. I think we were 588 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 2: on the air the other day with the warden guy, 589 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 2: that's the esteemed warden that that the penologist guy, the 590 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 2: PhD guy, forgive me, I can't remember his name, and 591 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 2: they were talking about the special meal that he might 592 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 2: get because prisoners are making the meals. And you know, 593 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,800 Speaker 2: he's he's considered now snitch because he's ratting on everybody 594 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 2: that you know, he's complaining. You keep your mouth shut, 595 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 2: you keep a real low profile. And he's he's done 596 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 2: completely the opposite at this point in time, and he 597 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 2: finds himself in a very precarious position. But either way, 598 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:21,800 Speaker 2: he's he's he's now there. And look, I think that, 599 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 2: you know, one of the one of the requirements for 600 00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 2: this plea deal was that he can't appeal, you know, 601 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 2: and I know, you know what, I know that it's 602 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 2: it's coming. You know, that's something something will put up there. 603 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 2: My question is, I think one of my questions is 604 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 2: is the DNA going to enter into that that thought process, 605 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 2: you know, with whatever legal mind decides to take this on. 606 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,799 Speaker 2: Because there are plenty of attorneys out there that see 607 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 2: this truly, they see this case as a challenge, an 608 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,879 Speaker 2: intellectual challenge for them. It doesn't mean that they don't 609 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,720 Speaker 2: have sympathy for the families and all that, but lawyers 610 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 2: are going to lawyer. Lawyers do what lawyers do, and 611 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 2: it'll be very interesting to follow this going forward. And 612 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm I'm I'm kind of interested, you know, 613 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 2: kind of watching, you know, kind of stepping back and 614 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 2: watching this thing developing the wake of the sentencing and everything, 615 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 2: and seeing how how many more data dumps are going 616 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:21,920 Speaker 2: to come about, you know, what else is going to 617 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 2: be out there. I'm sure that this is kind of 618 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,839 Speaker 2: a slow release. I was kind of and I'd love 619 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 2: to get your feelings about this. I was kind of 620 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 2: encouraged that they blocked any further images or they've got 621 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 2: to uh what do they call it. They've asked the 622 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 2: judge to put a hold on that for right now 623 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 2: where the police department could release any other images. And 624 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,479 Speaker 2: I think it was actually Mattie's mom that was really 625 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,920 Speaker 2: the tip of the spear with that. I don't I 626 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 2: don't know that it serves any purpose for for any 627 00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 2: of us to see those images, any of us, you know, 628 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 2: I don't know, but I was I was really curious 629 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 2: about what you thought about that. 630 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,120 Speaker 3: You know, Joe, I'm with you that I don't want 631 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 3: to hear about this guy anymore. But I think this 632 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:15,279 Speaker 3: show today is very important because the FBI did something 633 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 3: they've said along they wouldn't do, and they did it. 634 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,839 Speaker 3: As for the pictures of the victims, I don't think 635 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 3: if they serve a purpose in helping to solve future crimes, 636 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,359 Speaker 3: I would understand it. Other than that, I cannot see 637 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 3: other than preorian interest to see something. I mean, look, man, 638 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,719 Speaker 3: there are plenty of images of people who have been 639 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:41,839 Speaker 3: destroyed one way or another. 640 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: I just don't think we need any more of them, 641 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 1: but I do. It's funny. 642 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 3: I believe in a free society, and so I'm kind 643 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 3: of like, whatever, float your boat, man, if you want 644 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 3: to look at those pictures. It's just at a certain 645 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 3: point you have to have some kind of feeling for 646 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 3: the families. And I just thought of them having to 647 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 3: wake up and see more come on, I just hate 648 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 3: I hate it for them. And then you see something 649 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 3: that this come out. 650 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 2: And yeah, and these these kids, uh, you know, they 651 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,879 Speaker 2: they've had the spotlight thrown on their lives. They didn't 652 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 2: ask for it. I mean, they really didn't. It's it's 653 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 2: it's really a shame. I think back to Dale Earnhardt's 654 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 2: death and the efforts his his wife made down in 655 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:31,839 Speaker 2: Florida because she was she was bounded, determined that none 656 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 2: of none of his autopsy photos were going to be released. 657 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 2: They didn't want dada to come out of that autopsy. 658 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 2: And I think that she wound up achieving the ability 659 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 2: to get or they I think that they actually did 660 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,799 Speaker 2: create a law relative to that. And yeah, I mean 661 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 2: from an educational standpoint, you know, I teach at the university, 662 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:59,959 Speaker 2: I teach death investigation, at the university, and I don't 663 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 2: need those images in order to further myself academically, you know, 664 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 2: I mean, I know what I've been told about them. 665 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 2: The case is adjudicated. Why why are they out there 666 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,359 Speaker 2: and or why would you want to put them out 667 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 2: there too? 668 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:20,400 Speaker 3: What? 669 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,560 Speaker 2: What are you trying to satisfy by doing this? I 670 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 2: think it is the big thing. They just serve. They 671 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 2: serve no purpose. But there are a lot of ghastly 672 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,320 Speaker 2: things out there that we'd rather not see, you know, 673 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 2: But they're out there, and that that's my and I 674 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:42,959 Speaker 2: guess the cynic in me knows that that it'll it'll 675 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 2: come about. Uh, you know, years ago in my in 676 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 2: my practice in Atlanta, actually had a guide that was beheaded, uh, 677 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 2: fell off of a bridge overpass and being chased by 678 00:41:55,640 --> 00:42:04,759 Speaker 2: the police and was impaled on a post. And those 679 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,319 Speaker 2: images came out and they weren't the images I took. 680 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,840 Speaker 2: There were images from an Atlanta firefighter and they were 681 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 2: found on a German website. So it does happen. It 682 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 2: does happen. But with all of that said, hopefully we'll 683 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 2: be able to shut the door on this chapter and 684 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,200 Speaker 2: put it to rest, because we now know that a 685 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 2: monster is no longer among us. He's secure, he's not 686 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,400 Speaker 2: going to harm anybody any longer. We just hope that 687 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 2: the families can heal. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 688 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 2: is Bodybags