Speaker 1: Welcome to Go, Ask Ali, a production of Shonda Land
Speaker 1: Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. When I have
Speaker 1: been with friends and that happened and I paid my pants,
Speaker 1: I did lose the room, they did leave. I saw
Speaker 1: her light up and I was like, I'm just going
Speaker 1: to work. But we are here until one of our
Speaker 1: last reps. I was just the one that was meant
Speaker 1: to take care of mamma. It's for me to remember
Speaker 1: every single day is that I always have a choice.
Speaker 1: Everyone always has a choice. Whenever somebody says no, you can't,
Speaker 1: or there's no rules for you, or you have to
Speaker 1: look like this, I go. I'll show you. I'll show you.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Go, ask Allie. I'm Alli Wentworth. You know
Speaker 1: I've talked about stories. I like to dig into this
Speaker 1: being a master class where I get to learn about
Speaker 1: people and their experiences and their stories. I had a
Speaker 1: conversation with my guest today before we started the podcast,
Speaker 1: and one of the things I talked to her about
Speaker 1: was the fact that she gets a lot of hate
Speaker 1: and people get triggered by her story. So it's important
Speaker 1: to say that within our conversation, we'll be talking about
Speaker 1: child pornography, and addiction. So I just wanted to send
Speaker 1: out a warning to all of you listeners that this
Speaker 1: conversation can be very difficult and for some people it
Speaker 1: might bring up a lot of rage and a lot
Speaker 1: of feelings. Maddie Corman is an actor, teacher, and writer
Speaker 1: and listen, if you grew up in the nineteen eighties,
Speaker 1: you definitely saw her as a teenager in Seven Minutes
Speaker 1: in Heaven in some kind of wonderful. Since then, she
Speaker 1: stayed incredibly busy in TV and film and theater on
Speaker 1: Broadway and off. Maddie also wrote and starred in a
Speaker 1: full length play based on her life called Accidentally Brave,
Speaker 1: which has been filmed by producer director Steven Soderberg, and
Speaker 1: for her play, Maddie was nominated for the Outer Critics
Speaker 1: Circle Award and when the Off Broadway Alliance Award for
Speaker 1: Best Solo Performance. So, Maddie, first of all, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: so happy to see your face. I came to see
Speaker 1: your play Accidentally Brave off Broadway, and I was so
Speaker 1: moved by it. I was so affected by it. Um,
Speaker 1: we didn't know each other before that, and after I
Speaker 1: saw the play, I stayed till the end because I
Speaker 1: wanted to hug you, and I pushed aside all your
Speaker 1: other friends so that I could get in in front
Speaker 1: of the line. Um, before we go into it, if
Speaker 1: you feel comfortable, yeah, why don't you tell the story?
Speaker 1: Is if you're telling the story of accidentally brave okay. Um.
Speaker 1: You know I'll start by saying, I've now told the
Speaker 1: story a lot of times, and yet here we are,
Speaker 1: seven years later, and I have to take a deep
Speaker 1: breath and I feel it in my stomach before I've
Speaker 1: even started. And that's just what telling this particular story is. UM.
Speaker 1: About seven plus years ago now, I was living in Westchester,
Speaker 1: living a very nice looking life, three great, difficult, hilarious children,
Speaker 1: a dog and a cat, husband who was not only
Speaker 1: sexy to me, but had a sexy job. And I
Speaker 1: worked occasionally. I'm an actress, among other things. Um. I
Speaker 1: had a semi great career where I worked but was
Speaker 1: also able to be with the kids and family and
Speaker 1: friends and all the all the things that looked really
Speaker 1: good on Facebook and Instagram. And I was summer. My boys.
Speaker 1: I have twin boys who were eleven at the time,
Speaker 1: and they had just just gotten home from sleepaway camp. Um.
Speaker 1: But I had an early morning shoot. So I was
Speaker 1: in my car, actually left the house before anybody woke up,
Speaker 1: which was very rare and very delightful. And so I
Speaker 1: was in the car and my phone rang at five am,
Speaker 1: and I was always already almost to work, and it
Speaker 1: was my daughter calling, which was very already. It was like,
Speaker 1: something's up because it's summer and it's five am. And
Speaker 1: just the scream that I heard, Um, I knew immediately
Speaker 1: something was very, very very wrong. And she let me
Speaker 1: know when I could understand her. I couldn't even understand
Speaker 1: her at first, but the police were in my house,
Speaker 1: our house, and they were I didn't I didn't understand
Speaker 1: at the time what was happening, and neither did she.
Speaker 1: I said, hang on, sweetheart, let me just call your dad.
Speaker 1: And I was like, what the hell is going on, babe?
Speaker 1: Like nothing, I honestly had no idea what could possibly
Speaker 1: be going on? And he said I can't talk, and
Speaker 1: I was like, I mean you can't talk? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean what? And then the police got on the phone
Speaker 1: with me and said, um, we have reason to believe
Speaker 1: there's material on a computer. I could barely even understand,
Speaker 1: but at that point it became clear that there was
Speaker 1: something illegal, perhaps on our computers, and they were taking them.
Speaker 1: And then it became clear that my husband was being arrested.
Speaker 1: And I still didn't understand what it was. UM. I
Speaker 1: won't go through the whole story because we don't have time,
Speaker 1: but I actually went to work. I kept going, which
Speaker 1: is a little bit insane looking back, but I didn't
Speaker 1: really understand. Still, my brother, thank god, was living really
Speaker 1: close by and came and got my kids. I sent
Speaker 1: my dad over to go help my husband and bring
Speaker 1: him to a lawyer. And I still was like, this
Speaker 1: must be some crazy kind of mistake. And uh, he
Speaker 1: was arrested for downloading images of child pornography. And that
Speaker 1: is the beginning of my story, the story, our story. UM.
Speaker 1: I will say that within twenty four hours of finding
Speaker 1: this information out, it was in the newspaper. And just
Speaker 1: to have the worst thing that's ever happened happen in
Speaker 1: real time and have it be public and digesting that
Speaker 1: and managing that and figuring things out while the world
Speaker 1: is watching, UM is something that I don't wish upon anyone.
Speaker 1: But that's what happened, and and that began a very long,
Speaker 1: arduous process of trying to trying to keep my kids okay,
Speaker 1: trying to honestly keep my husband alive, even though in
Speaker 1: those moments I didn't know who he was or what
Speaker 1: was going to happen to our marriage or him or anything.
Speaker 1: I am maybe because I lost my own mother when
Speaker 1: I was sixteen, I just had a feeling that and
Speaker 1: I still have this feeling that where there is breath,
Speaker 1: there is hope, where someone is alive, there is room,
Speaker 1: there's a very For me, there was a very poignant
Speaker 1: point in your play. And as I said at the beginning,
Speaker 1: your play has been um filmed by Steven Soderbergh, so
Speaker 1: people will be able to if they haven't seen the play,
Speaker 1: they will be able to kind of have this journey
Speaker 1: with you when they see it. But there's a moment
Speaker 1: in the play where you go to rehab with your husband,
Speaker 1: still very conflicted, still trying to catch up with the
Speaker 1: new reality that's your life. He went to rehab, and
Speaker 1: then at one point during rehab there's something called family
Speaker 1: Week where they invite the wives to come for five days.
Speaker 1: And you said something which was very funny but yet
Speaker 1: very insightful, which was you said, I see the people
Speaker 1: that are visiting the alcoholics and the drug addicts. Why
Speaker 1: did we have to get the bad addiction? Why couldn't
Speaker 1: we get one of the cool ones? Really really, but
Speaker 1: you forget, particularly living in our culture, that addiction shows
Speaker 1: itself in many forms, and so you know, sex addiction
Speaker 1: is an addiction like alcoholism. And for me being in
Speaker 1: the audience, that sort of sort of changed the road
Speaker 1: I was going down with you. And I want to
Speaker 1: say now at this point in our conversation that he
Speaker 1: downloaded some images. He's never touched a child. There's been
Speaker 1: no so it's that's to me, that's an important distinction.
Speaker 1: It's a very important distinction. And I'd also like to
Speaker 1: say that it's a really difficult thing to talk about,
Speaker 1: and I know there are people, um who are that's it.
Speaker 1: We can't even have the discussion. It's too upsetting, it's
Speaker 1: too clearly horrible. I want to be really clear and
Speaker 1: say I think child pornography is horrible. My husband thinks
Speaker 1: child pornography is horrible. There's no one that thinks what
Speaker 1: he looked at is in any way okay or a
Speaker 1: small thing, or that there are no victims. There are
Speaker 1: actual victims of child pornography, and I think about the
Speaker 1: victims all the time. There are organizations that help, and
Speaker 1: REIGN is one of them, and I happen to now
Speaker 1: have a lot of experience learning about sex addiction. And
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I want to talk about it
Speaker 1: is because nobody does talk about it. And yes, everyone
Speaker 1: has their boundaries, and there are people who are very
Speaker 1: very quick and loud to tell me that they would
Speaker 1: never ever ever stay because spoiler alert, I am still
Speaker 1: married to my husband, UM and that seems to be
Speaker 1: the big headline in your life. Sure, that's the sexy
Speaker 1: story to talk about. But I want to be really
Speaker 1: clear before we go on. Yes, there was never any
Speaker 1: physical touching of any child or person outside of my marriage,
Speaker 1: and there was also never any contact because that's another
Speaker 1: really big thing is that it's very easy on the
Speaker 1: internet to um have intriguing with people, conversations with people
Speaker 1: that was not part of my husband's acting out behavior.
Speaker 1: And there are people who I'm not even saying that
Speaker 1: I have a judgment about people who do whatever, but
Speaker 1: in my particular case, for me, that was a very
Speaker 1: important distinction early on, and while I was in no
Speaker 1: way thrilled to hear that my husband was looking at
Speaker 1: absolutely horrifying images. And I'm still all not okay with it.
Speaker 1: There's never been anything in me that says that's okay.
Speaker 1: But that is what happened. And that was an important, um,
Speaker 1: an important thing to learn because I didn't know, quite honestly.
Speaker 1: And I do talk about this in the show, and
Speaker 1: I've talked about it with you. I didn't know my
Speaker 1: husband was looking at any pornography. And I'm not I'm
Speaker 1: not a super religious person. I live in and around
Speaker 1: New York, I'm I'm in the entertainment industry. I'm aware
Speaker 1: of a lot of things. And yet that was not
Speaker 1: a part of our marriage. That was not a part
Speaker 1: of something we talked about. It was a very very
Speaker 1: very hidden thing for my husband. And as I learned
Speaker 1: at Family Week and beyond, there is um a kind
Speaker 1: of addiction to pornography where what gave you your hit
Speaker 1: doesn't work anymore and uh. And I also learned at
Speaker 1: Family Week, which by the way, I wasn't going to
Speaker 1: go to at all because I was so furious. And
Speaker 1: I also said, my kids have been completely traumatized. Now
Speaker 1: their mom's going to take off no way, And I
Speaker 1: had very wise, wonderful people around me saying, you've got
Speaker 1: to go. You've got to go for your kids, you've
Speaker 1: got to go for yourself. This is part of the
Speaker 1: healing and you need to see what's going on. And
Speaker 1: I still wasn't going to go. And then my daughter,
Speaker 1: who was sixteen at the time, said to me, well,
Speaker 1: didn't you make a vow to love dad and sickness
Speaker 1: and in health? Dad's sick? And you know that was
Speaker 1: pretty tough to um to argue with. That's a strong statement.
Speaker 1: She's really amazing. She's probably mad right now that I'm
Speaker 1: even mentioning her, but she's amazing. Um. I don't think
Speaker 1: she knew, but she gave me the fortitude to keep
Speaker 1: going and go and go to that place where I
Speaker 1: was able to also fall apart, quite honestly, because I
Speaker 1: had been trying to hold it together for my kids,
Speaker 1: for the world, and suddenly I was in the desert
Speaker 1: in Arizona and very privileged by the way. I understand
Speaker 1: that not everybody has that opportunity. But there was no
Speaker 1: one around except these other ladies who were married to
Speaker 1: other kinds of sex addicts, and I was like, well,
Speaker 1: what do I care? What they think. It turns out
Speaker 1: they were some of the most incredible, funny, smart, empathic, religious, interesting,
Speaker 1: just fascinating women. And that actually was incredibly important in
Speaker 1: my own you know, I don't like the word journey,
Speaker 1: but um, but being in the desert and being not
Speaker 1: around anyone who knew you, especially my kids, anyone who
Speaker 1: knew me, but also especially my kids, I just didn't
Speaker 1: want them to to see. I'm sure they did. I'm
Speaker 1: sure it wasn't as good as I think I was
Speaker 1: at holding it together, but I didn't want to scream
Speaker 1: and fall on the floor. And I did get to
Speaker 1: do that, um, And I got to feel sad and
Speaker 1: green and all the things that I just didn't have
Speaker 1: a moment to feel because there was the house was
Speaker 1: on fire. You know, there's no there's no talking about
Speaker 1: what the meaning of this is morally or financially. There
Speaker 1: was just no time I was I was actually trying
Speaker 1: to keep things from falling down. And so in the desert.
Speaker 1: The other thing I learned from not my husband telling me,
Speaker 1: because I don't think I could have ever believed him
Speaker 1: or listened, but very trained doctors saying talking about addiction,
Speaker 1: which I know about, and I believe, but I didn't
Speaker 1: believe in sex addiction because that just felt like a
Speaker 1: really it felt like a joke or an excuse for
Speaker 1: bad behavior. But here were these doctors saying, listen, we
Speaker 1: believe that addicts are sick people, not bad people, and
Speaker 1: that the worst thing you've done is not what defines you,
Speaker 1: and the worst thing you've looked at in terms of
Speaker 1: pornography is not necessarily what you actually want to do
Speaker 1: in real life. And these were things that I needed
Speaker 1: to hear in order to even begin to consider being married.
Speaker 1: And they also said to me, along with a very
Speaker 1: wise therapist, let's not figure out whether you're staying married
Speaker 1: or not right now, because the last thing you have
Speaker 1: the you can't even wrap your head around Wednesday. Let's
Speaker 1: just put a pin in that and try to get
Speaker 1: through the next six months and then we'll we'll meet again.
Speaker 1: It's not you're It wasn't like I was going to
Speaker 1: go on the dating sites, you know, in the next
Speaker 1: ten minutes. And I had a really long, mostly good
Speaker 1: marriage that had been happening for twenty years, and three
Speaker 1: kids who loved and love their dad very very much,
Speaker 1: and our families very in meshed I don't think that
Speaker 1: allows you to stay no matter what, but it certainly
Speaker 1: gave me pause when I didn't know what I wanted.
Speaker 1: I knew I didn't want I didn't want to to aside,
Speaker 1: and then maybe I stayed for another part of that,
Speaker 1: for the kids to be to get their feet on
Speaker 1: the ground, and then I got some extra time to
Speaker 1: see what was happening, to see what this man that
Speaker 1: I loved so much, so much, who was he? Was
Speaker 1: that all a lie or was there an actual compulsion
Speaker 1: that could be treated? Well. It's interesting because if I
Speaker 1: told your story to somebody on the street, their initial
Speaker 1: reaction would be, well, she left him, right, And there's
Speaker 1: there's an anger that comes out when people go, well,
Speaker 1: why didn't she leave him? Which is to me, the
Speaker 1: reason our culture gets so stunted and so uh polarized
Speaker 1: because we all jumped to conclusions and say, well, she
Speaker 1: should have left him. I have no sympathy for her
Speaker 1: because she stayed. But to me, the story of all
Speaker 1: of this is the fact that you didn't leave your
Speaker 1: husband because it's much easier to leave any situation. Let's
Speaker 1: take a quick break and we're back. So you have
Speaker 1: stayed in this marriage I have, and it has been
Speaker 1: incredibly difficult. You have a partner who can't go to
Speaker 1: birthday parties, can't walk the kids to school, all of
Speaker 1: all the limitations that come with that kind of arrest.
Speaker 1: And one of the things that you say is yes,
Speaker 1: I'm still married today. Yeah, they do say that, and
Speaker 1: we have a very different kind of marriage. I would
Speaker 1: say we have a better marriage. We have a marriage
Speaker 1: without secrets. We have a marriage that's authentic. We have
Speaker 1: a marriage where I shouldn't have taken this for me
Speaker 1: to learn certain things about myself. But UM, I don't
Speaker 1: wish this certainly on anyone, but there is something about
Speaker 1: having your life blow up that gives you an opportunity
Speaker 1: to really look at yourself. And UM, I'm not a martyr.
Speaker 1: I'm not a person that says, well, life's over, but
Speaker 1: I'll stick it out for the kids. I actually, um,
Speaker 1: I actually have allowed this person that I love to
Speaker 1: get well and get better. And I just want to
Speaker 1: make that clear. The reason maybe you've heard me say
Speaker 1: I'm married today and I have a marriage and recovery
Speaker 1: is that I don't have an interest in being with
Speaker 1: a person who says, you know what, So what all
Speaker 1: guys look at that, or yeah, I made a mistake,
Speaker 1: So what That's not who I'm married to, and that's
Speaker 1: not what I believe either. Um. I gave a person
Speaker 1: who I believe is a good person an opportunity and
Speaker 1: he has taken that opportunity. And you know, it's been
Speaker 1: seven years when I wrote the show. I wrote it
Speaker 1: really soon after, which seems a little bananas now, but
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I wrote it was there wasn't
Speaker 1: anybody talking about this and it was the loneliest time.
Speaker 1: And I already mentioned that I lost my mom when
Speaker 1: I was sixteen, which you can imagine was pretty lonely.
Speaker 1: So I had I had a place of of trauma
Speaker 1: and loneliness already, but this was a whole other level
Speaker 1: because I just didn't think anybody had ever been through
Speaker 1: this or could even possibly understand. And did you write
Speaker 1: it to be as a like cathartic exercise? I mean,
Speaker 1: why in that form? Why not dear diary? I mean,
Speaker 1: why did you decide to write in a play for
Speaker 1: when I was on the floor of my bathroom, you know, moaning, sobbing, screaming. Um,
Speaker 1: I was really lost, and someone reached out to me,
Speaker 1: who I did not know. And she had read about
Speaker 1: my story in the newspaper, in the New York Post,
Speaker 1: and thank you New York Post, um, including details that
Speaker 1: weren't actually true. But that's a New York Post. That's
Speaker 1: and and by the way, I now know that, I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh wow, not everything is true. Um. And she had
Speaker 1: was working with a friend of mine and somehow figured
Speaker 1: out how to get like she found me. This is
Speaker 1: your angel, as you call her in the place, this
Speaker 1: is my angel. And she said hi. And I just
Speaker 1: fell to my knees and said hi. And she said,
Speaker 1: my story is not the same as yours, but it's
Speaker 1: close enough. And I'm telling you your kids are going
Speaker 1: to be okay. You're gonna be okay. It's possible. Your
Speaker 1: husband's even gonna be okay. And I'm here and I
Speaker 1: don't feel so sorry for you. I feel sorry with you.
Speaker 1: And in that moment everything felt possible. And in the
Speaker 1: ensuing months, as I got up off the floor, I
Speaker 1: would say to her, what can I ever do? And
Speaker 1: she said, just pay it forward, just do it for
Speaker 1: someone else. And I think that's when I started writing.
Speaker 1: I just knew and I didn't I'm not a good
Speaker 1: enough writer. It turns out I'm a good writer. I
Speaker 1: kind of knew that, but I'm not a good enough
Speaker 1: writer to express what I wanted to express and I
Speaker 1: I want. I trusted myself to be able to somehow
Speaker 1: tell the story on a stage, because I wanted just
Speaker 1: to show the messy parts, and I wanted to be
Speaker 1: of service. I really did. As corny as that sounds,
Speaker 1: I wanted to tell my story for all the people
Speaker 1: who I thought needed to hear it. What was a
Speaker 1: surprise to me was the people like you, and very
Speaker 1: very many others whose stories were nothing like mine, who
Speaker 1: came up to me after the show and said, my
Speaker 1: sister died in a car accident, and overnight my life changed.
Speaker 1: My brother is a drug addict. Overnight we got a
Speaker 1: call that changed our life. You know, in a in
Speaker 1: a second, what was my foundation fell out from under me.
Speaker 1: And it was helpful for me to hear that that
Speaker 1: happened to you too. It was helpful for me to
Speaker 1: hear you didn't think you would ever laugh again, because
Speaker 1: when stuff like this happens, you're supposed to be earnest
Speaker 1: and thoughtful all the time. It was helpful to me
Speaker 1: to hear that you found a higher power, because even
Speaker 1: my angel was not able to make this better, like
Speaker 1: I actually did need something deeper and stronger. So that's
Speaker 1: there too. So I can't tell you exactly when the moment.
Speaker 1: I mean, I certainly wasn't like this would make a
Speaker 1: great show, but there was some part of me that
Speaker 1: felt compelled to share it in a way. And I
Speaker 1: have a very good friend who you know, one of
Speaker 1: my best friends, who's a writer, a really good writer,
Speaker 1: and she saw a very early reading and she said,
Speaker 1: you know, it's beautiful and good for you, and I'm
Speaker 1: proud of you. And you know you don't have to
Speaker 1: be up there on that stage alone. You could add
Speaker 1: almost like a Greek chorus, who plays because I kind
Speaker 1: of play some of the other characters, and somebody could
Speaker 1: play your husband, and some of the doctors and the neighbors.
Speaker 1: And I said, and she's so brilliant. And I was
Speaker 1: far be it from me to not take a note
Speaker 1: from my wonderful writer friend. And I said, I know
Speaker 1: that's not right. I know that part of and I
Speaker 1: hate solo shows. They're so like, come down and see
Speaker 1: me sing and dance about my midlife crisis, but I
Speaker 1: just knew that being on the stage alone represented what
Speaker 1: it felt like absolutely. So how did your family feel
Speaker 1: about it? Uh? Huh, Well, I think my husband lost,
Speaker 1: you know, the right to have too much say. But
Speaker 1: that being said, he and I both very strong. We
Speaker 1: feel that we're as sick as our secrets, and that
Speaker 1: it's important to shine a light on things that are
Speaker 1: in the dark and and the scary things and the
Speaker 1: things that people don't want to talk about. In fact,
Speaker 1: I believe that. Look in my experience and now I
Speaker 1: have a lot of experience being around people with sex
Speaker 1: addiction and various kinds. There's a lot of childhood trauma.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of childhood abuse. And so if we
Speaker 1: just throw people away and say, well, that person did that,
Speaker 1: so they must be no good. Let's get rid of them,
Speaker 1: and then we're we've solved the problem, Like we haven't
Speaker 1: solved the problem of child pornography by my husband being
Speaker 1: punished for that. I I am. I believe in punishing
Speaker 1: people who participate in any way in child pornography, but
Speaker 1: it's not going away because we shame people and out people.
Speaker 1: There's a really, really big part of our society that
Speaker 1: we need to talk about UM. So my husband was
Speaker 1: down with UM. And he's also an artist. Although he's
Speaker 1: he never worked another day as a director, producer after that,
Speaker 1: but he is. He comes from a world of believing
Speaker 1: that we take our pain and we make it into art.
Speaker 1: So he saw the service in it. I think, my kids,
Speaker 1: you'd have to speak to them. I tried to have
Speaker 1: integrity and not and I say in the in the play,
Speaker 1: I say, you know, this is my story to tell.
Speaker 1: I'm trying not to tell their stories. I don't know
Speaker 1: how to tell my story without including the fact that
Speaker 1: I have three children, because that's a huge part of
Speaker 1: the story. Yes it is. It's a whole other world,
Speaker 1: and you're not telling it through their eyes, but you
Speaker 1: have to. You are a woman with three kids and
Speaker 1: this happened to and it imploded all of your lives absolutely,
Speaker 1: And every choice that I've made has been based on
Speaker 1: being a mother, every choice that I've made, and doing
Speaker 1: this show was really hard and my um for them
Speaker 1: and I will I think it's okay for me to
Speaker 1: say that my daughter really did not want me to
Speaker 1: do it, and it was a very difficult thing and
Speaker 1: it was part of I don't think I had ever
Speaker 1: done anything honestly that my kids didn't like I mean anything,
Speaker 1: And um, I mean, of course they were annoyed by
Speaker 1: me all the time, you know, but but really this
Speaker 1: was a very big thing and we had to talk
Speaker 1: about We had to talk about shame. And you know,
Speaker 1: if shame is the reason not to do something, I
Speaker 1: don't know that I agree with that. I believe that
Speaker 1: telling this story is a love story about a family,
Speaker 1: and I believe that telling the story ultimately helps my family.
Speaker 1: If I actually believe that it would hurt my kids
Speaker 1: to tell this story, I wouldn't do it. But that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that they agree with that. Now, my daughter,
Speaker 1: you know, all my kids, My boys were eleven and
Speaker 1: now they're eighteen. My daughter was sixteen and now she's
Speaker 1: twenty three. So everybody's everybody changes, but our family is
Speaker 1: really strong now. And I would like to think that
Speaker 1: I have kids who are empaths, who have less judgment,
Speaker 1: who understand nuance, and who will give people in their
Speaker 1: life a chance to redeem themselves, not be walked over,
Speaker 1: not be abused, but who might see an opportunity for
Speaker 1: grace and radical acceptance. Yeah, I mean radical acceptance with boundaries.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of therapy, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of talking. Um. We talked about things that I don't
Speaker 1: think I ever would have talked about, but I'm glad
Speaker 1: to talk about them. I think every mom should be
Speaker 1: talking to their kids about pornography. I don't know that
Speaker 1: I would have I had to, And of course this
Speaker 1: is extreme, but it also put me in front of
Speaker 1: a world that I was in some denial about. Um,
Speaker 1: not just in my own household, but in the in
Speaker 1: the world. Did your husband see the show? Yes? Early on, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he told me that he was going to see it
Speaker 1: and that he wasn't going to tell me when I
Speaker 1: asked if he wanted to read the script, and he
Speaker 1: said no. And one night I got home from doing
Speaker 1: a two show day, which was extremely It was really
Speaker 1: it was really exhausting. We were in previews still and
Speaker 1: and I came home. It was a Wednesday, and I
Speaker 1: was talking about somebody who had been there that night
Speaker 1: and some blah blah blah, and you know, one of
Speaker 1: the projections didn't work and this and that, and then
Speaker 1: when I finished my monologue, he said, I saw the
Speaker 1: show this afternoon, and I just took my breath away
Speaker 1: because I was like, oh my god, is he okay?
Speaker 1: Was kind of my first thought actually, And I said,
Speaker 1: how you do it? And he said, it's really beautiful
Speaker 1: and it was really hard, and I have a couple
Speaker 1: of notes and I said, thank you very much, I
Speaker 1: don't want your notes. And we went to bed that night,
Speaker 1: and in the middle of the night, I was like,
Speaker 1: what are your notes? Um, Because you know, he's a
Speaker 1: good director. Must have been hard, hard for him to watch.
Speaker 1: But also I'm glad he saw it. I mean, we
Speaker 1: don't get the opportunity to be so raw and speak
Speaker 1: our truth and sort of show strangers and non strangers
Speaker 1: what we went through. You know, we're not all performers
Speaker 1: that way. So yeah, I think I wanted to do
Speaker 1: that for the partners of I mean for the partners
Speaker 1: of anybody, because it's easy to look at me and
Speaker 1: go she stayed. And then it's like, and believe me,
Speaker 1: in ninety minutes you don't fully understand why. But there's
Speaker 1: a lot more to it, and there's it's not like
Speaker 1: and I never thought about leaving. It's like, no, I
Speaker 1: thought about leaving every second, And no, I was incredibly
Speaker 1: hurt and angry and scared and disgusted and all of
Speaker 1: the things that you think I might be. But I'm
Speaker 1: not going to be able to say that to you
Speaker 1: in a seven minute meet and greet on the street
Speaker 1: or the course of you or wherever I go. But
Speaker 1: I also think there's a real issue in this world.
Speaker 1: And I think women have this more than anyone. You know,
Speaker 1: I am. I'm a real fan of twelve Step, and
Speaker 1: it's free, and it's incredibly helpful for me in my life,
Speaker 1: and you're not really supposed to talk about it, so
Speaker 1: I won't get into the details, but I will say
Speaker 1: that it has saved my life. And I will say
Speaker 1: that the twelve Step programs that help partners, spouses, brothers, sisters, mothers,
Speaker 1: fathers of people who struggle with addiction, you know, the
Speaker 1: Alanan's and a c s, and the people who struggle
Speaker 1: with someone else in their life and then need to
Speaker 1: get help for themselves but don't want to talk about
Speaker 1: their partner or their son or their mother, so then
Speaker 1: they're keeping the secret and then they're getting sick, you know.
Speaker 1: And so I think I wanted to do this. There's
Speaker 1: even a lot of help for men who are and
Speaker 1: and there are women as well, but mostly in my experience,
Speaker 1: men who are sex addict and poor an addict, and
Speaker 1: there's very very few people talking about help for the
Speaker 1: betrayed partner. And if my husband wants to go to
Speaker 1: a meeting, well this is pre COVID, but even still
Speaker 1: on zoom um form a sex addiction twelve step meeting,
Speaker 1: and we live around the New York area, I would
Speaker 1: say there are a hundred meetings a week that he
Speaker 1: could choose from, and I would say for the partners,
Speaker 1: there's about two. And I know that all those people
Speaker 1: going to the other meetings many of them have partners.
Speaker 1: So it's not that there's not people affected by this,
Speaker 1: but there's so much shame, Like we all have these
Speaker 1: same feelings, whether our stories are the same or not,
Speaker 1: and with sex addiction it is not the same, Like
Speaker 1: there's just something about this. But even if it's not
Speaker 1: an illegal sex addiction acting out, the shame that the
Speaker 1: women feel about staying or even just carrying it is
Speaker 1: so exhausting that it becomes this really lonely world where
Speaker 1: these badass, brilliant women either they leave but they don't
Speaker 1: really want to leave, or they leave but they haven't
Speaker 1: gotten the help they need, or they stay but they're
Speaker 1: so angry, and they're like, I'm going to punish you
Speaker 1: for the rest of our days, but I'm gonna let
Speaker 1: you stay. And that's no life for anybody. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying I feel sorry for the guys. I'm saying these
Speaker 1: women are like, they want so badly to kind of
Speaker 1: move forward, but their friends don't know their secrets, and
Speaker 1: their husbands are being punished because they're so scared to
Speaker 1: not be angry. I've been that person. I'm scared to
Speaker 1: not be angry. And you know, that same angel said
Speaker 1: to me early days, Oh, you're so lucky that your
Speaker 1: story was in the newspaper. And I was like, um, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not. It is really not a good thing. And
Speaker 1: everyone's looking at me, and everyone's looking at my kids,
Speaker 1: and everyone knows, and and she said here's why. She said,
Speaker 1: it's not your job or the kid's job to do
Speaker 1: the dance of keeping this a secret. And if you
Speaker 1: had been given that choice, you would have And I agree,
Speaker 1: I would not have done the show. I don't think.
Speaker 1: I mean, who the hell knows, but my story, you know,
Speaker 1: the show is called accidentally brave, because I'm not that brave.
Speaker 1: But it was already and it was already out there.
Speaker 1: I don't know that I would be going, hey, um,
Speaker 1: you may not know this, but let me tell you
Speaker 1: what happened. So the good news is about my kids
Speaker 1: is that they're doing really well right now and their kids,
Speaker 1: you know, and every time anything happens or they have
Speaker 1: a feeling or an emotion, or a bad day or
Speaker 1: a bad month, I am going to probably forever ask
Speaker 1: the question, was it because of the thing? Was it
Speaker 1: because of the trauma? And then I talked to my
Speaker 1: friends who have had, you know, no issues. Their lives
Speaker 1: are great, and their kids are also having anxiety and
Speaker 1: all kinds of other issues that you know we all
Speaker 1: deal with. But but um, but really we have had
Speaker 1: moments of of joy and togetherness. And you know, my
Speaker 1: husband has worked and continues to work at his own
Speaker 1: recovery and wants to do right by the world and
Speaker 1: right by me and his family and and many many,
Speaker 1: many many people that he let down. Um, it's not
Speaker 1: an easy thing to walk through the world with the
Speaker 1: very worst thing that you've ever done, that everyone knows
Speaker 1: that you did, that you're wearing the T shirt every day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And you know, like I said, I it's hard to
Speaker 1: talk about this because it's a certain kind of His
Speaker 1: behavior was so aberrant and so horrible and scary that
Speaker 1: a lot of people just can't see past that. And
Speaker 1: I had to I didn't have to say it was okay,
Speaker 1: but it happened. So it put me in a land
Speaker 1: where I felt that in order to go forward, I
Speaker 1: needed to learn and educate myself in order to make
Speaker 1: good decisions. Of course, you know, listening to you talk
Speaker 1: about it, you can't help but think yourself, what would
Speaker 1: I do? What would you know? I mean, and I've
Speaker 1: been married for over twenty years and I love my husband.
Speaker 1: I I can't fathom it. But it would be easier
Speaker 1: to especially if it wasn't in the paper. It would
Speaker 1: be easier to run away, you know, like moved to
Speaker 1: outside Reno and just pretend it never happened and start
Speaker 1: a new life. But as you said before, and the
Speaker 1: unfortunate thing about our culture is that just perpetuates the problem.
Speaker 1: And if we don't talk about it, and if we
Speaker 1: don't hear other people's stories, we will always slam the
Speaker 1: door shut on even the subject of it. And the
Speaker 1: porn industry is a multibillion dollar industry. So let's be
Speaker 1: honest about that. That's right, let's take a short break.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Go Gali. I'm curious why, you know,
Speaker 1: when you think about opiods and drugs that ultimately human
Speaker 1: beings blame the drug industry, right, like you think now
Speaker 1: after with all these opiods and dope sick and everything,
Speaker 1: it's like, how dare these pharmaceuticals, you know, with cigarette smoking?
Speaker 1: How dare these big companies. Why isn't everybody going, how
Speaker 1: dare these pornography billion dollar things? H And because what
Speaker 1: they do is they blame. They blame the person that's watching.
Speaker 1: You know, there's something wrong with him. And let's round
Speaker 1: up the guys. Somebody's feeding all these people. It is insane, right,
Speaker 1: that's the big lie in a sense. Yeah, but it is.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, pornography is being fed by the
Speaker 1: way through Fortnite to young boys. I mean, so why
Speaker 1: are we looking at this? Why are we just going, Oh,
Speaker 1: he's gross, you know, put him in jail for two years.
Speaker 1: He's gross and he did that. They well, what are
Speaker 1: you watching? What porn are you watching? Because if you're
Speaker 1: watching something and you're saying that girl's eighteen, but she's
Speaker 1: playing a thirteen year old, Like is that better? Like
Speaker 1: it's all terrible, or she's twenty, but we're tying her
Speaker 1: up and you know, whatever it is. But you know, look,
Speaker 1: I am not making any excuses for my husband, and
Speaker 1: he has been punished severely and continues to be punished
Speaker 1: by society, by the law, financially, everything else. That being said,
Speaker 1: I think the number one search in porn sites is babysitter,
Speaker 1: porn and I and that's not okay either. And by
Speaker 1: the way, now it's not just porn. If you're on
Speaker 1: the porn sites, you can click and then you're talking
Speaker 1: to someone and then click and then you're meeting someone
Speaker 1: and it's it's just it's it's so easy. But like
Speaker 1: we just want to shame the guys. And I get it.
Speaker 1: And anyway, you know, I've learned a lot about pornography
Speaker 1: and I think it's really dangerous. And I'm talking about
Speaker 1: legal pornography. Um, I think our kids are learning sex
Speaker 1: ed from it. And it is free, and it is accessible,
Speaker 1: and it is anonymous, and it is a real issue
Speaker 1: and there are a lot of good men who are
Speaker 1: trying to actually not cheat, and that is allowed. Like,
Speaker 1: is pornography cheating And that's a whole other I mean,
Speaker 1: we could talk about that for us, but yes, is
Speaker 1: it cheating. But but also we live in a world
Speaker 1: now with the Internet where a seven year old boy
Speaker 1: can type in boobies and get to the dark Web
Speaker 1: and no time. So guess what a seven year old
Speaker 1: boy can type in the White House and get to pornography.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really, really, it's a hugely complicated subject
Speaker 1: and I am certainly not here to say I know
Speaker 1: the answer, but I do know that it's harder for
Speaker 1: a kid to get a beer than it is to
Speaker 1: get to hardcore pornography. And I do believe from my
Speaker 1: experience that pornography is addictive, and not everybody, just like
Speaker 1: not everybody gets addicted to gambling, and not everybody gets
Speaker 1: addicted to binging and purging and all other kinds of things.
Speaker 1: There are people who that is their numbing out and
Speaker 1: then it stops working, And then what do you do
Speaker 1: when your drug stops working? Um, you know, whenever I
Speaker 1: talk about this, I hear this voice in the back
Speaker 1: of my head going, Maddie there's going to be people
Speaker 1: saying you're making an excuse, You're an idiot, you know,
Speaker 1: but so be it. I just really want to I
Speaker 1: want to talk about it because it needs to be
Speaker 1: talked about, I think, and I want there to be
Speaker 1: some hope. I also think that my story maybe provides
Speaker 1: some hope to men, because I think a lot of
Speaker 1: men are keeping this all kinds of secrets because they
Speaker 1: believe if they tell the secret, then their life will
Speaker 1: fall apart and their family will fall apart. And then
Speaker 1: in keeping the secret, it can get more shameful and
Speaker 1: spiral down. And I'm not guaranteeing anything, but I wish.
Speaker 1: I wish that my husband had looked for help. He
Speaker 1: was in therapy, He had a wife that loved him
Speaker 1: and was seemingly an understanding person, but he would say
Speaker 1: he was so ashamed. Of course, like I think it's
Speaker 1: easy and I love you and this is no offense
Speaker 1: to you. I think it's easy to ask about the
Speaker 1: marriage and to go, well, how did you stay and
Speaker 1: why did you stay? Just like people say, did you
Speaker 1: lose friends? Yes, I lost friends, But another question is
Speaker 1: did you gain friends? And who are your real friends?
Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, look who my freaking friends like. I
Speaker 1: have a really really beautiful, intense, difficult life, but it's
Speaker 1: authentic and the people in my life are there and
Speaker 1: they know me. And I never want you to know
Speaker 1: my messiest parts. Ever, I wanted you to know just
Speaker 1: the little bit of the mess enough that it would
Speaker 1: be adorable. But this is not adorable. I get it.
Speaker 1: I would want to know the same question. I would
Speaker 1: want to talk about it and look at it and
Speaker 1: ask all the questions. But I think what is also
Speaker 1: interesting and important is that there are all these women
Speaker 1: out there who thought that their husband and I can
Speaker 1: only speak for myself, so I will. My husband became
Speaker 1: my higher power. When I was anxious, he calmed me down,
Speaker 1: when I was happy. He was who I told the
Speaker 1: good news too. When I had any kind of problem,
Speaker 1: I knew he would be there for me, and suddenly
Speaker 1: that was gone. And that happens for all different kinds
Speaker 1: of reasons. So I think what I would like to
Speaker 1: give to people is just a toolkit for how I
Speaker 1: got from there to here, and not because my husband's okay,
Speaker 1: because I had to learn to be okay, because I
Speaker 1: had to make friendships that were stronger than what they
Speaker 1: ever had had to be because I had to learn
Speaker 1: how to stand on my own two feet and then
Speaker 1: say I choose to be in this marriage or not
Speaker 1: that I don't need to be, and not to sound
Speaker 1: a holier than now because I'm not. I loved having
Speaker 1: someone else be the person that answered the questions and
Speaker 1: took care of me. I was exhausted, even at twenty
Speaker 1: three years old. When I met him, I was like, finally, finally, finally,
Speaker 1: and it broke, you know, broke my heart a million
Speaker 1: pieces when he in my when he betrayed me, when
Speaker 1: he betrayed that trust, I was completely shattered. And I'm
Speaker 1: not unshattered now. I'm still I'm still working on that,
Speaker 1: you know. But but I learned, I learned a lot.
Speaker 1: I've learned a lot. I'm out of my marriage. I'm
Speaker 1: not just proud of myself. I'm proud of my kids.
Speaker 1: I'm proud of my husband. My dog was the best
Speaker 1: and never wavered, you know. But I am. I think
Speaker 1: in some ways, Ali, I am. I do think I
Speaker 1: did a good thing for my family. I think in
Speaker 1: some ways I like held the car up. You know,
Speaker 1: they say the moms can hold the car up. And
Speaker 1: now what I'm dealing with is my kids have gone
Speaker 1: out from under the car. They're okay, they're like off
Speaker 1: living their lives. They've told their friends, are not told
Speaker 1: that they've got their own stuff. And I'm still holding
Speaker 1: up the car because I'm not sure how so I
Speaker 1: in my own PTSD, I'm going, is it okay to
Speaker 1: set the car down? And then what you know? And
Speaker 1: I feel like in some ways I've got like a
Speaker 1: year and a half of let down to go. Maybe,
Speaker 1: but I just dropped both my boys at college, so
Speaker 1: maybe this is the time. So you're an empty nest
Speaker 1: or now right? I mean ish, you know, like the
Speaker 1: minute the nest is. And that's another thing with my
Speaker 1: story being so public. I had someone say to me
Speaker 1: just the other day, well, now you can get divorce. Wow.
Speaker 1: And you know, I don't think anybody would say that
Speaker 1: somebody else other than me, but um, I kind of
Speaker 1: hurt my feelings and it took my breath away for
Speaker 1: a minute. And but it was just an opinion of like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: you stayed for the kids, and you know, like I
Speaker 1: said that that may have been a truth at the beginning,
Speaker 1: and we do share three children. That's not nothing that's
Speaker 1: that's forever. That's whether you stay married or not. I'm
Speaker 1: sure you received a lot of opinions over the past
Speaker 1: seven years, all kinds of opinions. And one of the
Speaker 1: reasons that I wanted you on and one of the
Speaker 1: reasons that when accidentally Brave comes out and in the
Speaker 1: meantime someone can listen to it on audible, is there's
Speaker 1: a story here, a bigger story that can help all
Speaker 1: kinds of people, like we've been talking about. And that's
Speaker 1: why I was so moved and and why I feel
Speaker 1: like it's a story that has nothing to do and
Speaker 1: yet everything to do with addiction. But it's about a family.
Speaker 1: As you said. Yeah, so Mattie, where are you now?
Speaker 1: I mean my room? Um I am let's see seven
Speaker 1: years later, Um, I am writing more, i am healing more.
Speaker 1: I'm still acting, I'm still mothering. I am still looking
Speaker 1: at my own part of everything and trying to be
Speaker 1: a decent person with integrity, authenticity, some boundaries, and a
Speaker 1: little bit of humor and even a tiny bit of delight.
Speaker 1: That's sometimes that's where I am all within forty seven minutes.
Speaker 1: But um, I'm just a work in progress. But it's
Speaker 1: it's it's not done. And you know, when my mom
Speaker 1: died and I was like, okay, it's been a year,
Speaker 1: it's time to it's no one wants to hear about
Speaker 1: this anymore, and it's time to be okay. And of
Speaker 1: course I look back at that seventeen year old girl
Speaker 1: and say, well, poor you. You know that was crazy.
Speaker 1: But in a way, I'm here to tell you today that,
Speaker 1: like I said, I can also today talk about mascara
Speaker 1: and other things whereas I couldn't, you know, in the
Speaker 1: throes of everything. But it still affects me, um, and
Speaker 1: my heart is still healing. It's and I'm scared of
Speaker 1: what you'll think. Yeah, of course, yeah, yeah, But I
Speaker 1: want to tell you that I'm very thankful and grateful
Speaker 1: that you came on and talked about it. I just am.
Speaker 1: I love you so much. I think it's important. You know,
Speaker 1: it's it's uncomfortable for me to talk about It's uncomfortable
Speaker 1: for me, but yet I know, yeah, we got to
Speaker 1: have these conversations. We do. I know, and you do.
Speaker 1: I think you're an incredibly courageous woman. Well, I am
Speaker 1: grateful for your support, accidentally, brave, thank you for listening.
Speaker 1: To go ask Ali if you are someone who knows
Speaker 1: experiencing sexual abuse or trauma. Contact rain are a I
Speaker 1: n N the Rate Abuse and Incest National Network at
Speaker 1: one eight hundred six five six hope. That's one eight
Speaker 1: six five six four six seven three. Just to be clear,
Speaker 1: is an ongoing debate in the mental health field about
Speaker 1: sex and pornography addiction. While some therapists may refer to
Speaker 1: compulsive behaviors as sex quote unquote addiction, strictly speaking, the
Speaker 1: struggles are not officially considered a disorder or an addiction.
Speaker 1: Other therapists believe the behaviors are actually symptoms of personal
Speaker 1: or psychological problems. But luckily, while the experts figure it out,
Speaker 1: treatments like cognitive behavioral therapy are available and effective. For
Speaker 1: more info and what you've heard in this episode, including
Speaker 1: the link to Mattie's play Accidentally Brave and Audible, check
Speaker 1: out our show notes. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review,
Speaker 1: Go ask Alli, and follow me on social media on
Speaker 1: Instagram at the Real Alli Wentworth Now. If you'd like
Speaker 1: to ask me a question or suggest a guest or
Speaker 1: a topic to dig into, I'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 1: And there's a bunch of ways you can do it.
Speaker 1: You can call or text to me at three to
Speaker 1: three three six four six three five six, or you
Speaker 1: can email a voice memo right from your phone them
Speaker 1: to go ask Alli podcast at gmail dot com and
Speaker 1: if you leave a question, you just might hear it.
Speaker 1: I'm Go Ask Allie, Go Ask Gali is a production
Speaker 1: of Shonda land Audio and partnership with I heart Radio.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I heart
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Speaker 1: favorite shows.