1 00:00:08,245 --> 00:00:14,365 Speaker 1: School of Humans. This episode discusses historical events that include 2 00:00:14,405 --> 00:00:19,925 Speaker 1: physical and sexual abuse against children. Like the rest of 3 00:00:19,925 --> 00:00:25,005 Speaker 1: the South, Alabama is a study in contradictions, a region 4 00:00:25,085 --> 00:00:29,885 Speaker 1: known for both warm hospitality and gross and justice, swelling 5 00:00:29,885 --> 00:00:35,405 Speaker 1: with pride and stricken by conscience. It's a tangle of racial, economic, 6 00:00:35,525 --> 00:00:40,485 Speaker 1: and geographic disparities. Lots of America can be like this, sure, 7 00:00:40,885 --> 00:00:46,085 Speaker 1: but Alabama's complication is legendary. On one hand, the state 8 00:00:46,205 --> 00:00:50,725 Speaker 1: is deeply conservative, teaming with good old boys and Confederate flags. 9 00:00:51,565 --> 00:00:54,165 Speaker 1: While most of the nation is celebrating the Martin Luther 10 00:00:54,285 --> 00:00:59,605 Speaker 1: King Holiday each January, Alabama celebrates King Lee Day instead, 11 00:01:00,245 --> 00:01:05,605 Speaker 1: a joint observation of Martin Luther King and Robert E. Lee. 12 00:01:05,965 --> 00:01:09,005 Speaker 1: So you'd be forgiven for thinking that a state with 13 00:01:09,045 --> 00:01:12,685 Speaker 1: this much of a racist history would be pretty white. 14 00:01:13,685 --> 00:01:17,205 Speaker 1: But Alabama is not a white state. I say this 15 00:01:17,365 --> 00:01:20,645 Speaker 1: as a Black Southerner myself, For me and my family 16 00:01:21,045 --> 00:01:24,365 Speaker 1: and over half of black people in America, the South 17 00:01:24,525 --> 00:01:28,965 Speaker 1: is home Over a quarter of Alabama's residents are black, 18 00:01:29,245 --> 00:01:32,925 Speaker 1: almost twice the national average, and Alabama has the fifth 19 00:01:32,965 --> 00:01:37,605 Speaker 1: highest black population of any state in the country. In 20 00:01:37,645 --> 00:01:40,885 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, the state's black population was even larger, 21 00:01:42,005 --> 00:01:44,165 Speaker 1: but you wouldn't have known that looking at the crowd 22 00:01:44,205 --> 00:01:49,245 Speaker 1: that surrounded Alabama's capital on January fourteenth, nineteen sixty three, 23 00:01:49,405 --> 00:01:54,525 Speaker 1: to see George Wallace sworn in as governor after an 24 00:01:54,605 --> 00:01:58,565 Speaker 1: unsuccessful run as a moderate in nineteen fifty eight. Wallace 25 00:01:58,685 --> 00:02:02,685 Speaker 1: triumphed four years later, in part by promising never to 26 00:02:02,685 --> 00:02:07,045 Speaker 1: integrate the state. It was during this inauguration speech that 27 00:02:07,165 --> 00:02:20,565 Speaker 1: Wallace made a defining statement of the era. Bag White 28 00:02:20,565 --> 00:02:24,005 Speaker 1: people have maintained power in Alabama, not just back then, 29 00:02:24,125 --> 00:02:28,645 Speaker 1: but today as well, thanks to the law. It's easy 30 00:02:28,685 --> 00:02:32,165 Speaker 1: to think of the law as being an objectively moral force, 31 00:02:32,765 --> 00:02:36,445 Speaker 1: one that is overwhelmingly fair and equal. But the law 32 00:02:36,565 --> 00:02:40,565 Speaker 1: isn't objective, nor is justice blind, and the rule of 33 00:02:40,645 --> 00:02:44,965 Speaker 1: law is not about fairness or consistency. It's about power. 34 00:02:46,085 --> 00:02:49,245 Speaker 1: The law mutates and remolds itself to serve those who 35 00:02:49,365 --> 00:02:52,445 Speaker 1: enforce it, who make it, and who benefit from it. 36 00:02:53,725 --> 00:02:57,685 Speaker 1: Everyone else is at its mercy, and no one knows 37 00:02:57,725 --> 00:03:02,725 Speaker 1: that more than black people in Alabama. I say that 38 00:03:03,085 --> 00:03:05,085 Speaker 1: to remind you that the children were talking about in 39 00:03:05,125 --> 00:03:10,445 Speaker 1: this po podcast were technically legally criminals. The law had 40 00:03:10,485 --> 00:03:14,965 Speaker 1: made that determination and so that's what they were, juvenile delinquents, 41 00:03:15,805 --> 00:03:19,325 Speaker 1: Negro lawbreakers. Never mind that the laws that they were 42 00:03:19,365 --> 00:03:23,605 Speaker 1: breaking were laws designed for them to break, implemented so 43 00:03:23,645 --> 00:03:28,005 Speaker 1: that the state could deem them criminals. These were children, 44 00:03:28,605 --> 00:03:32,365 Speaker 1: often as young as ten or eleven years old, suffering 45 00:03:32,405 --> 00:03:36,005 Speaker 1: trauma from being separated from their loved ones, taken from 46 00:03:36,005 --> 00:03:40,005 Speaker 1: their families and handed over to the state. They were children, 47 00:03:40,845 --> 00:03:43,765 Speaker 1: but to the state of Alabama, they were criminals all 48 00:03:43,765 --> 00:03:50,605 Speaker 1: the same. That is the Alabama that Lonnie Holly, Jenny Knox, 49 00:03:51,085 --> 00:03:54,565 Speaker 1: Johnny Bodley, and Mary Stevens, as well as countless other 50 00:03:54,685 --> 00:03:57,365 Speaker 1: young black children grew up in. We have viewed with 51 00:03:57,645 --> 00:04:03,805 Speaker 1: dismay the tragically slow pace of the Negros progress or 52 00:04:03,805 --> 00:04:08,925 Speaker 1: a full emancipation the state of Alabama, enforced by the 53 00:04:09,005 --> 00:04:13,005 Speaker 1: demogoguery of the racist courses in the machinery of government. 54 00:04:13,405 --> 00:04:19,685 Speaker 1: These incidents in Alabama were caused by outsiders who came 55 00:04:19,805 --> 00:04:23,645 Speaker 1: to this state seeking trouble. I felt that I was 56 00:04:23,685 --> 00:04:26,325 Speaker 1: not being treated right then that I had a right 57 00:04:26,445 --> 00:04:29,485 Speaker 1: to retain the sea that I had taken as a 58 00:04:29,525 --> 00:04:32,325 Speaker 1: passenger on the bus. The federal officers are armed with 59 00:04:32,405 --> 00:04:35,685 Speaker 1: a proclamation from President Kennedy, urging the governor to end 60 00:04:35,725 --> 00:04:38,885 Speaker 1: his efforts to prevent two Negro students from registering at 61 00:04:38,885 --> 00:04:43,605 Speaker 1: the university who are committed to a worldwide struggle to 62 00:04:43,725 --> 00:04:46,765 Speaker 1: promote and protect the rights of all who wish to 63 00:04:46,805 --> 00:04:50,885 Speaker 1: be free. You are ordered to disperse, go home, or 64 00:04:50,965 --> 00:05:03,965 Speaker 1: go to your church. This march will not confett. Montgomery, Alabama, 65 00:05:04,085 --> 00:05:09,245 Speaker 1: in the sixties was the most segregated place on the planet. 66 00:05:09,965 --> 00:05:14,405 Speaker 1: That's Denny Abbott, a former juvenile probation officer. If you 67 00:05:14,445 --> 00:05:16,685 Speaker 1: look up Mount Meg's, one of the first things that 68 00:05:16,765 --> 00:05:19,245 Speaker 1: pops up is a book called They Had No Voice, 69 00:05:19,485 --> 00:05:23,205 Speaker 1: written by Denny. In it, he tells the story of 70 00:05:23,245 --> 00:05:26,565 Speaker 1: the eleven years he spent working for Montgomery County Juvenile 71 00:05:26,605 --> 00:05:30,205 Speaker 1: Justice System as a probation officer. He's a big part 72 00:05:30,245 --> 00:05:33,445 Speaker 1: of our story, as you'll find out later. When telling 73 00:05:33,525 --> 00:05:36,445 Speaker 1: us about his childhood, he told us that his father 74 00:05:37,005 --> 00:05:39,685 Speaker 1: was an out and out racist. I heard the in 75 00:05:39,845 --> 00:05:43,365 Speaker 1: word every day from him. In fact, I think my 76 00:05:43,445 --> 00:05:46,845 Speaker 1: fathers don't remember the clan quite frankly, and growing up, 77 00:05:47,325 --> 00:05:50,645 Speaker 1: Denny lived a very segregated life. Elementary school, middle school, 78 00:05:50,765 --> 00:05:53,525 Speaker 1: high school, in college. I never went to school with 79 00:05:53,565 --> 00:05:56,645 Speaker 1: a black person, not once. Didn't know the name of 80 00:05:56,685 --> 00:06:00,605 Speaker 1: a black person until I started working after I graduated 81 00:06:00,685 --> 00:06:04,605 Speaker 1: from college, so I really had no information about the 82 00:06:04,605 --> 00:06:09,405 Speaker 1: black community. Everything was rab After graduating from Huntingdon College 83 00:06:09,405 --> 00:06:12,885 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty one, didn't he found himself married and broke. 84 00:06:13,645 --> 00:06:16,445 Speaker 1: He was just twenty one and he needed a job, 85 00:06:17,085 --> 00:06:19,845 Speaker 1: any job. I found out about an opening as a 86 00:06:19,885 --> 00:06:24,165 Speaker 1: probation officer with a montgomer Juvenile court. His title was 87 00:06:24,165 --> 00:06:28,605 Speaker 1: actually boys Counselor and interesting and actually what I find 88 00:06:28,725 --> 00:06:33,085 Speaker 1: kind of disturbing euphemism for probation officer. I was one 89 00:06:33,125 --> 00:06:36,885 Speaker 1: of like seven or eight probation officers there, and just 90 00:06:36,925 --> 00:06:39,405 Speaker 1: a few weeks into his job, he had to drive 91 00:06:39,445 --> 00:06:41,885 Speaker 1: a black child to Mount Meg's for the first time. 92 00:06:45,485 --> 00:06:50,685 Speaker 1: What I saw driving up to the institution were black 93 00:06:50,765 --> 00:06:56,285 Speaker 1: kids working in the fields, and they were wearing army 94 00:06:56,325 --> 00:07:00,405 Speaker 1: fatigue so well cast off army surplus pants and shirts 95 00:07:00,445 --> 00:07:02,885 Speaker 1: that were much too large. They had to roll them up. 96 00:07:03,365 --> 00:07:06,725 Speaker 1: Most of the kids were barefooted and that's what they 97 00:07:06,765 --> 00:07:09,245 Speaker 1: did from sun up to sundown, work in the fields. 98 00:07:09,765 --> 00:07:12,165 Speaker 1: And then I got to see a couple of the 99 00:07:12,285 --> 00:07:16,485 Speaker 1: buildings and they were all and increpit. I do remember 100 00:07:16,805 --> 00:07:20,805 Speaker 1: that there was a train for a waste, human waste 101 00:07:20,805 --> 00:07:23,525 Speaker 1: that was just outside the door and window that was open, 102 00:07:23,685 --> 00:07:28,445 Speaker 1: and just the conditions were hardle That was Denny's first 103 00:07:28,485 --> 00:07:32,245 Speaker 1: glimpse of Mount Meg's, a place he eventually drove hundreds 104 00:07:32,245 --> 00:07:34,845 Speaker 1: of kids to a place he would come to call 105 00:07:35,005 --> 00:07:42,445 Speaker 1: a slave camp. I'm Josie Duffie Rice, and this is 106 00:07:42,565 --> 00:07:47,565 Speaker 1: unreformed the Story of the Alabama Industrial School for Negro Children, 107 00:08:16,885 --> 00:08:25,205 Speaker 1: Episode two, The Arrival. If you were a kid in 108 00:08:25,325 --> 00:08:28,885 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties Alabama and you were accused of breaking the 109 00:08:28,965 --> 00:08:32,725 Speaker 1: law in some way, one of two things would probably happen. 110 00:08:33,805 --> 00:08:35,925 Speaker 1: If you were white and had the money and resources, 111 00:08:36,245 --> 00:08:39,845 Speaker 1: you'd probably get to go home, no charges, no punishment. 112 00:08:40,645 --> 00:08:43,045 Speaker 1: But if you were one of the unlucky ones, you 113 00:08:43,085 --> 00:08:47,205 Speaker 1: were sent to one of three industrial schools. There were 114 00:08:47,205 --> 00:08:49,725 Speaker 1: two near Birmingham, one for white boys and one for 115 00:08:49,805 --> 00:08:53,725 Speaker 1: white girls, but all the black kids, boys and girls 116 00:08:53,965 --> 00:08:57,445 Speaker 1: were sent to the Alabama Industrial School for Negro Children, 117 00:08:58,325 --> 00:09:02,965 Speaker 1: otherwise known as Mount Meg's. And in some cases you 118 00:09:03,005 --> 00:09:05,685 Speaker 1: could be sent to Mount Megs even when it wasn't 119 00:09:05,725 --> 00:09:09,165 Speaker 1: clear that you'd broken any law. If they ran away 120 00:09:09,205 --> 00:09:12,885 Speaker 1: from home, the juvenile court would exercise jurisdiction. If they 121 00:09:12,885 --> 00:09:15,805 Speaker 1: were incorrigible, if they didn't listen to their parents, they 122 00:09:15,805 --> 00:09:19,325 Speaker 1: could be sent to the juvenile court. That's Barry Feld. 123 00:09:19,805 --> 00:09:22,965 Speaker 1: He's a Centennial Professor of Law Emeritus at the University 124 00:09:23,005 --> 00:09:26,605 Speaker 1: of Minnesota Law School. In addition, the children who were 125 00:09:26,765 --> 00:09:31,405 Speaker 1: abused or neglected or dependent through no fault of their 126 00:09:31,445 --> 00:09:35,045 Speaker 1: own but because of their family circumstances would also end 127 00:09:35,125 --> 00:09:38,805 Speaker 1: up in juvenile court. Some of these kids were sentenced 128 00:09:38,805 --> 00:09:42,165 Speaker 1: to time at Mountmegs, but other kids, they didn't even 129 00:09:42,245 --> 00:09:46,405 Speaker 1: see a judge. They just got sent straight there, no 130 00:09:46,525 --> 00:09:52,005 Speaker 1: formal charges, no clear sentence. Once we get into the 131 00:09:52,085 --> 00:09:57,085 Speaker 1: judges chamber, he said, ma'am, I'm sentence in you a 132 00:09:57,205 --> 00:10:00,445 Speaker 1: year and six months to the Mountmegs in Dukeshire school. 133 00:10:00,605 --> 00:10:06,845 Speaker 1: Huh what why? What? I do you know? I didn't 134 00:10:06,845 --> 00:10:11,285 Speaker 1: do anything and I just cried and cried and cried 135 00:10:11,525 --> 00:10:15,565 Speaker 1: and cried because I didn't understand. I don't know. That's 136 00:10:15,645 --> 00:10:19,645 Speaker 1: Jenny Knox. Jenny was born in October in nineteen fifty two. 137 00:10:20,325 --> 00:10:23,805 Speaker 1: She adored her mother, but Leona Montgomery had her challenges. 138 00:10:24,645 --> 00:10:27,205 Speaker 1: She had many children, some of whom Jenny had no 139 00:10:27,245 --> 00:10:32,205 Speaker 1: connection to, mostly Jenny had a relationship with her older sisters, 140 00:10:32,285 --> 00:10:35,205 Speaker 1: Geraldine and Ernestine, who were close in age to her. 141 00:10:36,445 --> 00:10:39,605 Speaker 1: She lived with the two of them, her mother, her 142 00:10:39,645 --> 00:10:43,365 Speaker 1: three younger half siblings, and their father, John Montgomery Senior, 143 00:10:44,005 --> 00:10:48,365 Speaker 1: the only father that Jenny ever knew. Life with John 144 00:10:48,365 --> 00:10:51,285 Speaker 1: as their father was comfortable and the family lived in 145 00:10:51,325 --> 00:10:53,885 Speaker 1: a nice home. But we didn't have to worry too 146 00:10:53,925 --> 00:10:57,365 Speaker 1: much about anything when she was married. But when Jenny 147 00:10:57,485 --> 00:10:59,885 Speaker 1: was a young girl, John Montgomery was shipped off or 148 00:10:59,965 --> 00:11:03,445 Speaker 1: yet another military tour abroad, and she and her siblings 149 00:11:03,605 --> 00:11:07,405 Speaker 1: lived alone with their mother, alcoholic who struggled to parent. 150 00:11:08,085 --> 00:11:13,085 Speaker 1: Something had to give. She started drinking and things stought happening. 151 00:11:13,285 --> 00:11:17,165 Speaker 1: I just say life stowed happening in the process of 152 00:11:17,245 --> 00:11:21,845 Speaker 1: life happening. To her, it was at our experience as children. 153 00:11:23,845 --> 00:11:27,125 Speaker 1: When Jenny was around twelve, she and her younger siblings 154 00:11:27,125 --> 00:11:30,245 Speaker 1: were placed in a foster home, and then a different one, 155 00:11:31,045 --> 00:11:34,805 Speaker 1: and then yet a different one. Eventually, Jenny's aunt, Willie G. 156 00:11:35,005 --> 00:11:39,885 Speaker 1: Robinson became their legal guardian. Being taken in by actual 157 00:11:39,925 --> 00:11:42,485 Speaker 1: family seems like it would have been a relief, but 158 00:11:42,605 --> 00:11:45,605 Speaker 1: Jenny hated living with Aunt Willie. She made them work 159 00:11:45,645 --> 00:11:49,085 Speaker 1: in the fields picking peas and cotton. She isolated them 160 00:11:49,165 --> 00:11:53,485 Speaker 1: from family and friends. She controlled every aspect of their lives. 161 00:11:54,165 --> 00:11:56,245 Speaker 1: I really didn't want to stay with their you know, 162 00:11:56,405 --> 00:11:59,205 Speaker 1: because I didn't. I didn't feel like I was being 163 00:11:59,245 --> 00:12:01,085 Speaker 1: treated right. As a matter of fact, I didn't feel 164 00:12:01,125 --> 00:12:05,245 Speaker 1: like any of us was treated right. So Jenny ran away. 165 00:12:05,765 --> 00:12:08,525 Speaker 1: She left Aunt Willie's house with a single goal in mind. 166 00:12:09,365 --> 00:12:12,045 Speaker 1: I just wanted to be with my mom. Nothing else 167 00:12:12,205 --> 00:12:14,845 Speaker 1: really mattered to me like being with my mom. There 168 00:12:14,885 --> 00:12:18,565 Speaker 1: was nobody greater, you know, a better knew how to 169 00:12:18,605 --> 00:12:20,445 Speaker 1: take care of me and love me like my mom. 170 00:12:21,325 --> 00:12:24,125 Speaker 1: Jenny ended up staying with another aunt, who told Jenny 171 00:12:24,205 --> 00:12:26,045 Speaker 1: she was welcome as long as she did her choices 172 00:12:26,085 --> 00:12:30,965 Speaker 1: and went to school. The arrangement was working out well 173 00:12:31,085 --> 00:12:34,365 Speaker 1: until one day a school staff member came to Jenny's 174 00:12:34,365 --> 00:12:38,605 Speaker 1: class and summoned her to the principal's office. Jenny was 175 00:12:38,645 --> 00:12:41,605 Speaker 1: devastated when she saw who was waiting for her. She 176 00:12:41,805 --> 00:12:48,765 Speaker 1: was there, Oh my god, it was Aunt Willie. Even 177 00:12:48,805 --> 00:12:52,085 Speaker 1: though Jenny was consistently attending school, and even though she 178 00:12:52,165 --> 00:12:54,765 Speaker 1: was much happier staying with her other aunt, the judge 179 00:12:54,805 --> 00:12:58,205 Speaker 1: ruled that Jenny running away from her appointed guardian, Aunt Willie, 180 00:12:58,685 --> 00:13:02,685 Speaker 1: was an offense punishable by time served at Mount Meg's. 181 00:13:03,205 --> 00:13:07,085 Speaker 1: I wasn't out drinking, getting drunk, being loose in the 182 00:13:07,165 --> 00:13:10,925 Speaker 1: streets or whatever. I had class, not even think about 183 00:13:10,965 --> 00:13:14,245 Speaker 1: no boyfriend and all that different kind of stuff. But 184 00:13:14,325 --> 00:13:18,165 Speaker 1: I didn't understand it's still about this meat. So when 185 00:13:18,245 --> 00:13:21,965 Speaker 1: Jenny was around thirteen, she was sentenced to eighteen months 186 00:13:22,005 --> 00:13:25,765 Speaker 1: at Mount Meg's. If you're wondering why these kids didn't 187 00:13:25,805 --> 00:13:29,285 Speaker 1: push back or appeal their sentences, the answer is that 188 00:13:29,365 --> 00:13:33,285 Speaker 1: they couldn't not back then. At least they weren't entitled 189 00:13:33,285 --> 00:13:37,405 Speaker 1: to lawyers. Children didn't really have any legal rights at all. 190 00:13:38,925 --> 00:13:42,685 Speaker 1: Until just fifty five years ago, American kids were being 191 00:13:42,725 --> 00:13:46,445 Speaker 1: carted off to juvenile attention without first being afforded any 192 00:13:46,605 --> 00:13:51,525 Speaker 1: procedural rights. Rights that for kids like Jenny Knox could 193 00:13:51,525 --> 00:13:55,405 Speaker 1: have made a huge difference. And I have a lawyer. 194 00:13:56,005 --> 00:13:58,845 Speaker 1: I don't know anything about the lawyer. I don't know 195 00:13:58,965 --> 00:14:04,205 Speaker 1: I needed one. I was awarded with State Department Children's 196 00:14:04,205 --> 00:14:09,885 Speaker 1: Services had taken us from my mom several times. My 197 00:14:09,965 --> 00:14:14,405 Speaker 1: mom was still having children. Mary Stevens, who met in 198 00:14:14,485 --> 00:14:18,445 Speaker 1: her garden an episode one, has a similar story to Jenny. 199 00:14:18,805 --> 00:14:23,165 Speaker 1: My mom was needing me to work help pick continent 200 00:14:23,285 --> 00:14:27,685 Speaker 1: stuff for her to feed the children. I had to 201 00:14:27,725 --> 00:14:31,125 Speaker 1: do that, so I was missing so many days to 202 00:14:31,325 --> 00:14:35,845 Speaker 1: school and stuff and having to work that it just 203 00:14:35,965 --> 00:14:39,645 Speaker 1: got to wear. I didn't want to go to school 204 00:14:39,685 --> 00:14:42,885 Speaker 1: anymore because I was so far behind and everything. You know, 205 00:14:42,965 --> 00:14:47,325 Speaker 1: I just didn't want to go. Eventually, not going to 206 00:14:47,365 --> 00:14:52,565 Speaker 1: school led to serious consequences. We moved to Scottsboro, Alabama, 207 00:14:52,685 --> 00:14:56,005 Speaker 1: where I had skipped school one day and I got 208 00:14:56,005 --> 00:15:02,045 Speaker 1: caught why shrotzy I went to June. Somehow they decided 209 00:15:02,685 --> 00:15:08,085 Speaker 1: that I was going to go to Montgomery, and I 210 00:15:08,165 --> 00:15:11,125 Speaker 1: didn't know where I was going at the time. In fact, 211 00:15:11,285 --> 00:15:14,085 Speaker 1: Mary thought this moved to Montgomery might be good news. 212 00:15:14,845 --> 00:15:17,445 Speaker 1: She thought she might be getting a family again. I 213 00:15:17,445 --> 00:15:19,485 Speaker 1: thought I was going to be adopted because one of 214 00:15:19,525 --> 00:15:24,245 Speaker 1: my brothers was adopted. In nineteen sixty seven, at age thirteen, 215 00:15:24,845 --> 00:15:31,805 Speaker 1: Mary was sent to Mount Meg's for truancy. This is 216 00:15:31,885 --> 00:15:35,925 Speaker 1: part of the story that haunts me. Like Jenny and Lonnie, 217 00:15:36,365 --> 00:15:40,245 Speaker 1: all Mary really wanted was her mother, and instead she 218 00:15:40,365 --> 00:15:44,045 Speaker 1: was functionally sent to a juvenile prison, a place where 219 00:15:44,085 --> 00:15:57,925 Speaker 1: love and care were absent. I believe, Oh, I believe. 220 00:16:10,405 --> 00:16:14,885 Speaker 1: Across Alabama, Mount Megs was used as a boogeyman, essentially 221 00:16:15,005 --> 00:16:18,765 Speaker 1: to scare kids into good behavior. They say, you keep 222 00:16:18,805 --> 00:16:23,045 Speaker 1: being bad, You're going to Mount Megs. That's Johnny Bodley, 223 00:16:23,085 --> 00:16:26,405 Speaker 1: who you met in episode one. He's the professional musician 224 00:16:26,445 --> 00:16:30,285 Speaker 1: who lives in Selma. Growing up, Johnny heard stories about 225 00:16:30,325 --> 00:16:33,365 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's firsthand from his sister, who also went there, 226 00:16:34,245 --> 00:16:37,325 Speaker 1: but her horror stories about the place weren't enough to 227 00:16:37,405 --> 00:16:41,365 Speaker 1: keep Johnny out of there himself. Back then, when the 228 00:16:41,445 --> 00:16:44,925 Speaker 1: local paper mentioned Mount Meg's, it was always because of 229 00:16:44,965 --> 00:16:47,485 Speaker 1: a kid who was sent there after committing a more 230 00:16:47,605 --> 00:16:51,885 Speaker 1: serious crime. Lots of stories about theft, and even some 231 00:16:51,965 --> 00:16:56,165 Speaker 1: kids accused of attempted rape or assault. The paper only 232 00:16:56,165 --> 00:17:00,885 Speaker 1: ever mentioned those small minority of kids. But like Lonnie, 233 00:17:00,925 --> 00:17:03,725 Speaker 1: Mary and Jenny, there were many more kids who were 234 00:17:03,725 --> 00:17:07,365 Speaker 1: sent to Mount Meg's for tiny in fractions or really 235 00:17:07,485 --> 00:17:11,165 Speaker 1: for being poor and black. But of the four of them, 236 00:17:11,285 --> 00:17:13,685 Speaker 1: Johnny might be the closest to what the system would 237 00:17:13,685 --> 00:17:18,445 Speaker 1: consider a quote unquote delinquent today. He was caught by 238 00:17:18,445 --> 00:17:21,885 Speaker 1: the police in nineteen sixty seven. I ain't sitting in 239 00:17:21,925 --> 00:17:25,565 Speaker 1: the city jail for three months and they shift me 240 00:17:25,685 --> 00:17:31,045 Speaker 1: to Mount Megs. On July twenty second, fifteen birthday, Johnny, Lonnie, 241 00:17:31,045 --> 00:17:34,325 Speaker 1: Mary and Jenny and everyone who came to Mount Megs 242 00:17:34,725 --> 00:17:38,285 Speaker 1: got there the same way, driving down a long road 243 00:17:38,405 --> 00:17:41,765 Speaker 1: that led to the school. Everyone we talked to you 244 00:17:41,885 --> 00:17:45,605 Speaker 1: remembered that drive and how they had no idea what 245 00:17:45,765 --> 00:17:59,125 Speaker 1: awaited them. Mount Mags is about twenty miles east of 246 00:17:59,125 --> 00:18:03,605 Speaker 1: Montgomery and two hours south of Birmingham. In the nineteen sixties, 247 00:18:03,765 --> 00:18:06,485 Speaker 1: the kids were driven there by a juven no probation officer, 248 00:18:06,925 --> 00:18:10,365 Speaker 1: someone like Denny, and often they were handcuffed in the 249 00:18:10,365 --> 00:18:14,605 Speaker 1: back of the car. Lonnie, who came from Birmingham, probably 250 00:18:14,645 --> 00:18:18,725 Speaker 1: took the newly constructed State Highway sixty five, which follows 251 00:18:18,725 --> 00:18:22,445 Speaker 1: the Coosa River. On the edge of the highway, there 252 00:18:22,445 --> 00:18:26,765 Speaker 1: were farmhouses and fields rolling by. Depending on where they 253 00:18:26,765 --> 00:18:29,205 Speaker 1: were coming from, it could take hours to get there, 254 00:18:29,965 --> 00:18:33,285 Speaker 1: heading away from the life they knew, with no idea 255 00:18:33,485 --> 00:18:39,965 Speaker 1: what awaited them. But eventually they'd reached the road to 256 00:18:40,085 --> 00:18:49,085 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's. It was scary just to go down that roll, Dan, 257 00:18:50,085 --> 00:18:55,485 Speaker 1: You ride slowly down this two lines street, pale trees 258 00:18:56,165 --> 00:19:00,605 Speaker 1: on both sides. You're riding slowly. None of us know 259 00:19:01,365 --> 00:19:04,445 Speaker 1: where where we was going the gate. First of all, 260 00:19:04,965 --> 00:19:09,885 Speaker 1: taking that long ride two mountain mags. You're nervous, you 261 00:19:09,925 --> 00:19:13,525 Speaker 1: don't know what to expect, your mind running crazy or whatever. 262 00:19:14,165 --> 00:19:17,005 Speaker 1: You see this big old white house which is the 263 00:19:17,125 --> 00:19:22,165 Speaker 1: girl's home. This big building, a big long front ports. 264 00:19:22,245 --> 00:19:24,405 Speaker 1: It was a pretty building, but it look kind of 265 00:19:24,445 --> 00:19:30,125 Speaker 1: like a plantation house. And then when you get on 266 00:19:30,285 --> 00:19:34,685 Speaker 1: up to the building, you see young ladies out in 267 00:19:34,765 --> 00:19:40,485 Speaker 1: the field, open field, and they was literally bent over, 268 00:19:41,725 --> 00:19:46,685 Speaker 1: you know, with their hands picking, pulling grass. And then 269 00:19:46,765 --> 00:19:49,645 Speaker 1: let me know that this is a horrible vision. The 270 00:19:49,765 --> 00:19:55,365 Speaker 1: boys side was further on down the road from us. 271 00:19:55,885 --> 00:20:02,445 Speaker 1: We go through this gate where the gatekeeper were vehicle stopped. 272 00:20:03,485 --> 00:20:08,925 Speaker 1: He gives him man and signing man. Then we moved 273 00:20:09,005 --> 00:20:14,885 Speaker 1: slowly on down that road. Then you start seeing all 274 00:20:14,885 --> 00:20:22,765 Speaker 1: of these cottages, rick buildings with bars and things on 275 00:20:22,765 --> 00:20:27,765 Speaker 1: the windows, just awful looking buildings, block up buildings called 276 00:20:27,765 --> 00:20:31,445 Speaker 1: to see Cottie J cottage D. I've seen all these boys. 277 00:20:31,925 --> 00:20:35,445 Speaker 1: It's out on the yard just walking around, just just 278 00:20:35,565 --> 00:20:38,005 Speaker 1: doing nothing. You know. All of them looked deadly, all 279 00:20:38,005 --> 00:20:42,485 Speaker 1: of them looked mean. I remember the rock pile. It's off. 280 00:20:42,565 --> 00:20:45,245 Speaker 1: I mean, it's like in this big, this big yard, 281 00:20:45,605 --> 00:20:48,565 Speaker 1: and all of this dirt and all these big, these 282 00:20:48,605 --> 00:20:52,885 Speaker 1: big square rocks painted white. The pile of white rocks 283 00:20:52,965 --> 00:20:58,245 Speaker 1: looked ominous, a dramatic but kind of curious centerpiece on 284 00:20:58,325 --> 00:21:01,605 Speaker 1: the flat pastoral landscape that Lonnie and Johnny came to 285 00:21:01,685 --> 00:21:05,965 Speaker 1: understand all too well. When Lonnie arrived, the hard pulled 286 00:21:06,005 --> 00:21:09,485 Speaker 1: up to this old big house on the campus, and 287 00:21:09,605 --> 00:21:15,445 Speaker 1: out came the superintendent, Elias Brown Holloway, otherwise known as EB. 288 00:21:17,365 --> 00:21:21,405 Speaker 1: Mister Holloway came out, and he was huge and big, 289 00:21:22,285 --> 00:21:26,125 Speaker 1: and he would stand up and look at all of us, 290 00:21:27,005 --> 00:21:31,325 Speaker 1: and then from that he tells us about the place 291 00:21:32,205 --> 00:21:37,245 Speaker 1: and tells us that we should never try to run away. 292 00:21:37,605 --> 00:21:45,805 Speaker 1: There is no escaped in now. Please, Lonnie still shutters 293 00:21:45,805 --> 00:21:48,285 Speaker 1: at the memory of Holloway. You may remember that just 294 00:21:48,365 --> 00:21:51,005 Speaker 1: days before this, Lonnie and some other boys had tried 295 00:21:51,005 --> 00:21:55,285 Speaker 1: to escape from Birmingham Jail. But the minute he saw Holloway, 296 00:21:55,605 --> 00:21:58,885 Speaker 1: he knew that escaping from this place would be much harder. 297 00:22:02,565 --> 00:22:07,045 Speaker 1: After arriving boys were given standard issue military fatigues. This 298 00:22:07,165 --> 00:22:10,325 Speaker 1: was the only clothing that they had. It's the same 299 00:22:10,325 --> 00:22:12,645 Speaker 1: thing that Denny saw the kids wearing when he showed 300 00:22:12,685 --> 00:22:15,725 Speaker 1: up to Mount Meg's for the first time. You take 301 00:22:15,765 --> 00:22:20,165 Speaker 1: all value surveying cloth, you turn now me in, you 302 00:22:20,285 --> 00:22:22,965 Speaker 1: turn in any properties or ended tying your head in 303 00:22:23,005 --> 00:22:27,285 Speaker 1: your pockets. The campus had several buildings, a chapel, a barn, 304 00:22:27,565 --> 00:22:31,205 Speaker 1: a cannery, a nurse's station that was almost always empty, 305 00:22:31,805 --> 00:22:34,245 Speaker 1: in a schoolroom that a lot of kids never saw 306 00:22:34,285 --> 00:22:38,525 Speaker 1: the inside of. The boys slept in buildings called cottages. 307 00:22:40,045 --> 00:22:43,365 Speaker 1: Johnny was at first assigned a cottage d, a residence 308 00:22:43,405 --> 00:22:46,805 Speaker 1: known for being unlocked down twenty four hours a day. 309 00:22:47,365 --> 00:22:51,045 Speaker 1: The cottages were overseen by counselors, and during Lonnie's time 310 00:22:51,045 --> 00:22:53,685 Speaker 1: at Mount Meg's he remembers one of the councilors supervising 311 00:22:53,725 --> 00:22:59,125 Speaker 1: his cottage had been convicted of serious violent crimes, and 312 00:22:59,245 --> 00:23:03,125 Speaker 1: the cottages were packed full of kids. In some years, 313 00:23:03,325 --> 00:23:07,285 Speaker 1: three kids slept on one cot The barely stuffed mattresses 314 00:23:07,365 --> 00:23:11,805 Speaker 1: reeked of urine. The conditions and facilities were disgusting to 315 00:23:11,845 --> 00:23:17,485 Speaker 1: the point of hazardous. Mount Meg's was virtually unlivable. There 316 00:23:17,525 --> 00:23:20,885 Speaker 1: was an open sewer full of fieces and trash that 317 00:23:21,005 --> 00:23:25,605 Speaker 1: became a cesspool for mosquitos. The outhouse was just a 318 00:23:25,685 --> 00:23:29,645 Speaker 1: long board with multiple holes cut out of it. In 319 00:23:29,725 --> 00:23:35,325 Speaker 1: the buildings, dilapidated and poorly constructed, were extreme fire hazards. 320 00:23:36,765 --> 00:23:39,165 Speaker 1: For at least one stretch of time, there was no 321 00:23:39,245 --> 00:23:43,765 Speaker 1: clean water at the facility at all. The kids never 322 00:23:43,845 --> 00:23:47,565 Speaker 1: had enough to eat, and what they had was barely edible. 323 00:23:48,485 --> 00:23:51,445 Speaker 1: After all, the kitchen was full of roaches and other vermin, 324 00:23:52,925 --> 00:23:56,685 Speaker 1: but they were so hungry they'd eat anything. In one story, 325 00:23:57,125 --> 00:24:00,285 Speaker 1: when a kid vomited all over his food, another boy 326 00:24:00,365 --> 00:24:04,525 Speaker 1: was so hungry that he ate it. One survivor said 327 00:24:04,565 --> 00:24:07,925 Speaker 1: he often saw boys pick corn out of kalmaneure to eat. 328 00:24:09,725 --> 00:24:12,805 Speaker 1: The kids were assigned jobs, manual labor that they had 329 00:24:12,845 --> 00:24:16,165 Speaker 1: to do to maintain them Mount Meg's campus. There were 330 00:24:16,245 --> 00:24:18,765 Speaker 1: chores like working in the kitchen or milking the thirty 331 00:24:18,765 --> 00:24:23,085 Speaker 1: five cows, but all of them were expected to work 332 00:24:23,125 --> 00:24:27,805 Speaker 1: in the fields. Mount Meg's was surrounded by miles of farmland. 333 00:24:28,365 --> 00:24:31,565 Speaker 1: There were fifteen hundred acres. They were filled with fruit trees, 334 00:24:32,325 --> 00:24:38,165 Speaker 1: row upon row of vegetables, but mostly cotton. It looked 335 00:24:38,165 --> 00:24:42,765 Speaker 1: at dislike slavery. Can I mean? They would land us 336 00:24:42,885 --> 00:24:44,845 Speaker 1: up in the morning and all the boys would have 337 00:24:44,885 --> 00:24:46,845 Speaker 1: to hold it holes up in the air, and when 338 00:24:46,845 --> 00:24:48,565 Speaker 1: we get ready to go to something that we would 339 00:24:48,565 --> 00:24:50,845 Speaker 1: sea it would say chopped down. All of these boys 340 00:24:51,245 --> 00:24:55,085 Speaker 1: would madge to a field about fast six seven miles 341 00:24:55,085 --> 00:24:59,605 Speaker 1: away to work. Sometime. They ran to the field every 342 00:24:59,685 --> 00:25:04,565 Speaker 1: day from dawn until dusk. There they were black children 343 00:25:04,725 --> 00:25:15,525 Speaker 1: out in the alle Obama fields picking cotton. These kids 344 00:25:15,525 --> 00:25:20,845 Speaker 1: were being worked to the absolute bone. These were kids, 345 00:25:20,885 --> 00:25:24,885 Speaker 1: usually from cities like Birmingham or Montgomery. They were told 346 00:25:24,925 --> 00:25:28,365 Speaker 1: this was training, but training for what, and even for 347 00:25:28,445 --> 00:25:31,565 Speaker 1: the kids that did have farming experience, was close to 348 00:25:31,605 --> 00:25:35,485 Speaker 1: impossible to pick that much cotton every single day. When 349 00:25:35,485 --> 00:25:38,245 Speaker 1: I first got day, I didn't know nothing about picking cotton. 350 00:25:38,845 --> 00:25:45,565 Speaker 1: I'll just pull the whole stalcon everything. After filling up 351 00:25:45,725 --> 00:25:48,965 Speaker 1: large sacks with cotton, a truck would drive by with 352 00:25:49,085 --> 00:25:52,285 Speaker 1: a way station, making sure that the kids had met 353 00:25:52,325 --> 00:25:56,485 Speaker 1: their quotas. One time, Lonnie and some other boys tried 354 00:25:56,485 --> 00:25:59,285 Speaker 1: to outsmart the scale by adding stones to the bottom 355 00:25:59,325 --> 00:26:03,285 Speaker 1: of the bag. It was stupid for us to do that. 356 00:26:03,285 --> 00:26:07,485 Speaker 1: That led to serious punishment, punishment that the kids at 357 00:26:07,485 --> 00:26:12,645 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's were all too familiar with. If you didn't 358 00:26:12,645 --> 00:26:14,685 Speaker 1: pick a hundred pounds or caught in today, I don't 359 00:26:14,685 --> 00:26:17,325 Speaker 1: care how old you would, they would beat you. They 360 00:26:17,325 --> 00:26:20,685 Speaker 1: would punish you if you didn't pick a certain amount 361 00:26:20,725 --> 00:26:23,645 Speaker 1: of watermelons, if you didn't pick a certain amount of cucumbers. 362 00:26:23,725 --> 00:26:26,125 Speaker 1: In Mount Maigs, they would punish you. If you was 363 00:26:26,245 --> 00:26:28,445 Speaker 1: running to the field and you got sick, they would 364 00:26:28,445 --> 00:26:33,045 Speaker 1: punish you for that, quote unquote. Discipline at Mount Meg's 365 00:26:33,325 --> 00:26:37,405 Speaker 1: was relentless, and you could get punished for almost nothing, 366 00:26:38,005 --> 00:26:42,005 Speaker 1: or for things completely out of your control, like this 367 00:26:42,085 --> 00:26:44,525 Speaker 1: one time that Johnny and some other boys were riding 368 00:26:44,565 --> 00:26:47,045 Speaker 1: in the front seat of a truck after the fields 369 00:26:48,205 --> 00:26:50,885 Speaker 1: when the driver of the car suddenly slammed on the brakes. 370 00:26:51,205 --> 00:26:54,245 Speaker 1: The boys were thrown forward and the windshield was shattered, 371 00:26:54,405 --> 00:26:56,925 Speaker 1: and mister Glover took each boy down out of the 372 00:26:57,005 --> 00:27:00,045 Speaker 1: trunk and beat him right there, as if it was 373 00:27:00,205 --> 00:27:04,005 Speaker 1: our fault. Mister Glover was the man who oversaw the 374 00:27:04,045 --> 00:27:07,965 Speaker 1: boys work, watch their every move in the fields. Mister 375 00:27:08,045 --> 00:27:11,205 Speaker 1: Glove was an older man. Whatever part of the military 376 00:27:11,285 --> 00:27:15,245 Speaker 1: that he was in had lamed him because he mostly 377 00:27:15,285 --> 00:27:19,445 Speaker 1: sit down everywhere he went. Despite his disability, mister Glover 378 00:27:19,565 --> 00:27:23,165 Speaker 1: had a reputation for beating kids with a particular intensity. 379 00:27:23,605 --> 00:27:26,725 Speaker 1: John Henry, but that's the name of his stick, and 380 00:27:26,845 --> 00:27:29,685 Speaker 1: John Henry the oak stick isn't mister Glover's only signature. 381 00:27:30,285 --> 00:27:32,685 Speaker 1: Mister Glover usually sit in his chair and beat you, 382 00:27:33,165 --> 00:27:34,845 Speaker 1: and you dan hire on the ground. He would beat 383 00:27:34,885 --> 00:27:37,325 Speaker 1: you while he's sitting in his chair. For the boys 384 00:27:37,445 --> 00:27:39,805 Speaker 1: who failed to complete all their cotton picking on his watch, 385 00:27:40,365 --> 00:27:44,445 Speaker 1: mister Glover has an especially disturbing punishment. He would take 386 00:27:44,485 --> 00:27:48,565 Speaker 1: his oak stick and drill a hole in the ground. 387 00:27:50,205 --> 00:27:52,485 Speaker 1: He would say, you see that hole in the ground, boy, 388 00:27:52,485 --> 00:27:54,285 Speaker 1: and you would have to say, yes, I'm mister Glover. 389 00:27:55,605 --> 00:27:58,525 Speaker 1: He was here. Put you your private part in it. 390 00:27:59,125 --> 00:28:02,565 Speaker 1: Put your dick in the hole, not literally pull yourself 391 00:28:02,565 --> 00:28:05,445 Speaker 1: out of the clothes. What deathway you laid on top 392 00:28:05,525 --> 00:28:09,445 Speaker 1: for that whole and he began to whoop you. Every 393 00:28:09,485 --> 00:28:13,085 Speaker 1: time he whoop you, he hits you, and then here 394 00:28:13,085 --> 00:28:17,325 Speaker 1: a grunt with the stick. And Danny'll keep on hitting 395 00:28:17,365 --> 00:28:20,765 Speaker 1: you with the stick each time, and he grunt, and 396 00:28:20,885 --> 00:28:24,405 Speaker 1: your fast swell up and pretty soon you walking with 397 00:28:24,445 --> 00:28:30,045 Speaker 1: a limp. That's just how bad Mountmaids were. There were 398 00:28:30,045 --> 00:28:32,325 Speaker 1: a number of other adults who ran the facility in 399 00:28:32,325 --> 00:28:37,685 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties. Mister Reddy was another infamous punisher mister Reddy. 400 00:28:38,605 --> 00:28:43,805 Speaker 1: He was a shell shocked person. Man. He was wow 401 00:28:44,605 --> 00:28:48,405 Speaker 1: we call him wild ch out like God damn it. 402 00:28:48,485 --> 00:28:51,685 Speaker 1: He would cross all the time. If he caught you 403 00:28:51,805 --> 00:28:55,365 Speaker 1: doing something, God damn it, you want to be a 404 00:28:55,445 --> 00:28:59,365 Speaker 1: fucking bullet, don't you here? A run over? And just 405 00:28:59,445 --> 00:29:02,125 Speaker 1: stopped beating on you and beat on you and beat 406 00:29:02,165 --> 00:29:05,085 Speaker 1: on you and beat on you until he felt that 407 00:29:05,125 --> 00:29:08,605 Speaker 1: he was satisfied. But it wasn't just the staff that 408 00:29:08,685 --> 00:29:11,805 Speaker 1: the boys had to look out for. In an essay 409 00:29:11,805 --> 00:29:14,725 Speaker 1: about his experience at Mount Meg's, Johnny wrote that on 410 00:29:14,765 --> 00:29:17,805 Speaker 1: the first night there, he stayed awake until morning for 411 00:29:17,845 --> 00:29:21,685 Speaker 1: fear of being sexually assaulted. And not just by the staff, 412 00:29:22,165 --> 00:29:24,925 Speaker 1: but by the other boys. You know, all of them 413 00:29:24,925 --> 00:29:27,325 Speaker 1: look deadly, all of them trying to put fearing you. 414 00:29:28,005 --> 00:29:31,365 Speaker 1: For Johnny, it's impossible to talk about Mount Meg's without 415 00:29:31,405 --> 00:29:35,365 Speaker 1: touching upon the rampant sexual abuse that openly took place. 416 00:29:35,885 --> 00:29:38,725 Speaker 1: I mean, boys got raped all the time in Mount Megs, 417 00:29:39,245 --> 00:29:41,485 Speaker 1: and if a boy reported to a counselor that they'd 418 00:29:41,525 --> 00:29:46,765 Speaker 1: been assaulted, nothing happened. So for blood of them, did 419 00:29:46,845 --> 00:29:49,605 Speaker 1: they got raped? They would do nothing a bad day. 420 00:29:50,045 --> 00:29:52,525 Speaker 1: Boys would often stick together in groups based on where 421 00:29:52,565 --> 00:29:56,405 Speaker 1: they were from. All the Birmingham Boys together Montgomery Boys. 422 00:29:57,485 --> 00:29:59,565 Speaker 1: When Johnny was there, there were just a couple other 423 00:29:59,605 --> 00:30:03,445 Speaker 1: boys from Selma, and Johnny quickly learned that even among 424 00:30:03,485 --> 00:30:07,405 Speaker 1: those groups there were divisions. There were guys known as 425 00:30:07,445 --> 00:30:12,085 Speaker 1: scrubs and there were guys known as ikes. Ikes were tough. 426 00:30:12,645 --> 00:30:15,525 Speaker 1: Scrubs were sort of like the suckers. Many of the 427 00:30:15,565 --> 00:30:19,125 Speaker 1: Ikes become charge boys, meaning it becomes their job to 428 00:30:19,285 --> 00:30:23,005 Speaker 1: keep their peers in line. But even though they're all 429 00:30:23,005 --> 00:30:25,285 Speaker 1: the same age, the charge boys have a lot of 430 00:30:25,285 --> 00:30:28,725 Speaker 1: power over the others. All they had to say that 431 00:30:28,805 --> 00:30:31,965 Speaker 1: you left from Cotton when your rope, and they would 432 00:30:32,005 --> 00:30:34,485 Speaker 1: take you up to the overseer of mister Glover. The 433 00:30:34,525 --> 00:30:36,525 Speaker 1: other thing about Mount Mags is that it was a 434 00:30:36,605 --> 00:30:40,645 Speaker 1: school without any schooling. None of the boys can recount 435 00:30:40,685 --> 00:30:44,285 Speaker 1: getting a real education there or taking any real classes. 436 00:30:45,325 --> 00:30:50,245 Speaker 1: It was a labor farm basically. The girls they seem 437 00:30:50,325 --> 00:30:55,405 Speaker 1: to have some instruction, but not much. Miss Alexander was 438 00:30:55,525 --> 00:31:03,685 Speaker 1: our weaken night supervisor. I think Harris was fun was 439 00:31:03,805 --> 00:31:09,045 Speaker 1: I was so in teacher Miss Wright for cosmetology. Mister 440 00:31:09,125 --> 00:31:12,965 Speaker 1: Dubos was over the feet. That was Jenny. You can 441 00:31:13,005 --> 00:31:15,365 Speaker 1: hear just how worked up she is. Even when she's 442 00:31:15,405 --> 00:31:20,125 Speaker 1: just talking about who was on staff. It's still difficult 443 00:31:20,165 --> 00:31:23,125 Speaker 1: for her to talk about Mount Meg's. As she recalled 444 00:31:23,125 --> 00:31:27,845 Speaker 1: her experience there, she cried and cried. When Jenny first arrived, 445 00:31:27,925 --> 00:31:30,965 Speaker 1: she was taken to the dining hall, everybody together around 446 00:31:31,005 --> 00:31:34,805 Speaker 1: the wall that you introduced me to the stabs in 447 00:31:34,885 --> 00:31:42,005 Speaker 1: the ladies and and make you undressed in front of everybody. 448 00:31:42,685 --> 00:31:46,045 Speaker 1: The staff forced the new girls to bend over naked 449 00:31:46,285 --> 00:31:49,605 Speaker 1: and spread their legs for inspection. They said it was 450 00:31:49,645 --> 00:31:53,045 Speaker 1: for safety, but the girls suspected the real reason was humiliation, 451 00:31:53,845 --> 00:31:57,485 Speaker 1: to make sure that they knew their place. It affects 452 00:31:57,565 --> 00:32:03,365 Speaker 1: your privacy, it the grady. Nothing like this had ever 453 00:32:03,445 --> 00:32:07,845 Speaker 1: happened to Jenny before, and even now, sixty years later, 454 00:32:08,325 --> 00:32:12,325 Speaker 1: it still haunts her. And that was just day one. 455 00:32:13,245 --> 00:32:17,325 Speaker 1: It was only the beginning. On the girl's side. They 456 00:32:17,365 --> 00:32:20,685 Speaker 1: all supped in one dormitory, that big white building that 457 00:32:20,765 --> 00:32:23,645 Speaker 1: looked like a plantation house. You can't talk about Mount 458 00:32:23,725 --> 00:32:28,085 Speaker 1: Meg's in the nineteen sixties without talking about Fanny B. Matthews, 459 00:32:28,125 --> 00:32:33,325 Speaker 1: the girl's matron. When Mary first arrived at Mount Meg's, 460 00:32:33,365 --> 00:32:37,405 Speaker 1: though she thought she was safe because I was relieved, 461 00:32:38,005 --> 00:32:44,365 Speaker 1: because everybody was my complation, and you know that Patty 462 00:32:44,485 --> 00:32:48,125 Speaker 1: was going to be okay. Everyone who worked or was 463 00:32:48,205 --> 00:32:52,045 Speaker 1: locked up at Mount Meg's was black. When she first arrived. 464 00:32:52,085 --> 00:32:54,965 Speaker 1: This provided a false sense of security to Mary, and 465 00:32:55,085 --> 00:32:57,805 Speaker 1: she thought she'd been brought to Mount Meg's to be adopted. 466 00:32:58,525 --> 00:33:01,685 Speaker 1: And when we got there in the driveway and went in, 467 00:33:02,045 --> 00:33:06,205 Speaker 1: I met my fan to b Matthews, and she greeted 468 00:33:06,245 --> 00:33:09,245 Speaker 1: me and I asked, Gressa, are you gonna adopt me? 469 00:33:10,445 --> 00:33:14,285 Speaker 1: I did, and I was there to be get dapped. 470 00:33:14,365 --> 00:33:17,965 Speaker 1: I didn't know, but Fanny Matthews was no mother to 471 00:33:18,045 --> 00:33:22,965 Speaker 1: those girls. Missus Matthews was a tall, middle aged black 472 00:33:23,005 --> 00:33:25,685 Speaker 1: woman who wore a wavy cropped salt and pepper wig. 473 00:33:26,605 --> 00:33:30,045 Speaker 1: She was the mastermind of the complex system of psychological 474 00:33:30,165 --> 00:33:33,765 Speaker 1: and physical punishments she and her staff dolled out to 475 00:33:33,805 --> 00:33:38,845 Speaker 1: the girls. She had a very strong voice, very strong voice. 476 00:33:39,885 --> 00:33:43,685 Speaker 1: She didn't have to raise this. She was loud her demeanor, 477 00:33:44,165 --> 00:33:50,565 Speaker 1: voice and facial expressions, and her walk was fierce. And 478 00:33:50,765 --> 00:33:55,405 Speaker 1: she always carried a thick, great wooden paddle in her hand, 479 00:33:56,085 --> 00:33:58,765 Speaker 1: and she would carry that paddle in a poton in 480 00:33:58,845 --> 00:34:03,365 Speaker 1: a purse on her shoulder. The paddle was a constant 481 00:34:03,405 --> 00:34:07,005 Speaker 1: threat and reminder that Fanny Mathews would not hesitate to 482 00:34:07,085 --> 00:34:10,485 Speaker 1: beat any student. And I've gotten in hitting in the 483 00:34:10,565 --> 00:34:14,165 Speaker 1: head by miss Matthews several times with these with this baton. 484 00:34:15,245 --> 00:34:20,125 Speaker 1: Been over and give her a real hump in your back, 485 00:34:20,965 --> 00:34:24,565 Speaker 1: touch your toes and she comes down on your back 486 00:34:24,605 --> 00:34:28,085 Speaker 1: as hard as she can, but every ounce of strength 487 00:34:28,165 --> 00:34:31,885 Speaker 1: in her. And when you do, it feels like you 488 00:34:32,045 --> 00:34:35,685 Speaker 1: just went through a shop treatment because it hurts that bad. 489 00:34:35,765 --> 00:34:38,365 Speaker 1: And I feel like you're going through the floor when 490 00:34:38,405 --> 00:34:43,765 Speaker 1: she hits you like that. Danny Matthews was relentless. If 491 00:34:43,765 --> 00:34:46,445 Speaker 1: she heard any girls making noise at night, she'd line 492 00:34:46,485 --> 00:34:49,245 Speaker 1: up everyone in the hallway, going down the line and 493 00:34:49,365 --> 00:34:53,925 Speaker 1: hitting girls in the head with that baton. As a punishment, 494 00:34:54,165 --> 00:34:57,165 Speaker 1: Jenny had to manually dry clothes and sheets, meaning she 495 00:34:57,205 --> 00:35:02,005 Speaker 1: had to stand up all night and shake them dry. Mostly, 496 00:35:02,125 --> 00:35:05,885 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's was a torture sight, a place where children 497 00:35:05,965 --> 00:35:11,125 Speaker 1: just endured unbelievable abuse, but there were some good moments, 498 00:35:12,325 --> 00:35:14,365 Speaker 1: some moments when the kids could feel like they were 499 00:35:14,405 --> 00:35:18,805 Speaker 1: actual children and not inmates. There were a couple of 500 00:35:18,805 --> 00:35:22,765 Speaker 1: extracurricular activities that Jenny got involved in that did become 501 00:35:22,805 --> 00:35:27,085 Speaker 1: a part of the choir out there. I became a cheerleader. 502 00:35:28,365 --> 00:35:31,725 Speaker 1: While I was out there, she even met a boy 503 00:35:31,965 --> 00:35:35,965 Speaker 1: nicknamed Chick. Chick was fifteen years old when he and 504 00:35:36,045 --> 00:35:39,405 Speaker 1: Jenny met at Mount Meg's. He was serving time down 505 00:35:39,405 --> 00:35:41,725 Speaker 1: the road on the boy's side, and on the rare 506 00:35:41,765 --> 00:35:44,085 Speaker 1: occasion that it was his job to drive the tractor 507 00:35:44,125 --> 00:35:46,605 Speaker 1: near the fields where the girls lived, he would get 508 00:35:46,605 --> 00:35:48,965 Speaker 1: a chance to see them. I think Chick used to 509 00:35:48,965 --> 00:35:54,765 Speaker 1: always come to the girls home and you know, drive attractors, 510 00:35:55,525 --> 00:35:59,605 Speaker 1: and you know, I guess he got turned on by 511 00:35:59,645 --> 00:36:05,165 Speaker 1: seeing me and wanted to know who I word. Their 512 00:36:05,205 --> 00:36:09,805 Speaker 1: court ship was sweet, innocent. We just slipped letters to 513 00:36:09,885 --> 00:36:12,405 Speaker 1: one another, and if we was caught slipping letters to 514 00:36:12,485 --> 00:36:15,925 Speaker 1: each other, we would get in trouble. But these few 515 00:36:15,925 --> 00:36:20,325 Speaker 1: opportunities to be normal American teenagers were brief. There were 516 00:36:20,365 --> 00:36:23,925 Speaker 1: some good things that went on. They didn't last long, 517 00:36:24,045 --> 00:36:25,725 Speaker 1: but there were some good things that I was in 518 00:36:25,725 --> 00:36:28,765 Speaker 1: the choir, you know, I was on the football team, 519 00:36:29,725 --> 00:36:32,045 Speaker 1: was a kitchen boy, worked in the kitchen, and all 520 00:36:32,045 --> 00:36:38,325 Speaker 1: of those things were privileged positions. No, but as I said, 521 00:36:38,325 --> 00:36:41,685 Speaker 1: it was David brutal and if you made it out 522 00:36:41,685 --> 00:36:45,885 Speaker 1: of laugh, he was blessed. You may be wondering how 523 00:36:45,925 --> 00:36:49,405 Speaker 1: anyone got out of Mount Meg's alive, and the truth 524 00:36:49,525 --> 00:36:52,685 Speaker 1: is that many didn't, or at least that's the consensus. 525 00:36:53,685 --> 00:36:55,925 Speaker 1: We don't have records that tell us just how many 526 00:36:56,005 --> 00:37:00,125 Speaker 1: kids died because of abuse or starvation or being worked 527 00:37:00,125 --> 00:37:05,125 Speaker 1: to death. But there were kids who disappeared. And there 528 00:37:05,125 --> 00:37:07,925 Speaker 1: are memories of children who were beaten within an inch 529 00:37:08,005 --> 00:37:11,125 Speaker 1: of their life and then never seen again. And they 530 00:37:11,245 --> 00:37:15,125 Speaker 1: have him a couple of times. We know that they 531 00:37:15,205 --> 00:37:17,885 Speaker 1: mout they had to die, they ain't. No amulans came 532 00:37:18,005 --> 00:37:22,405 Speaker 1: down through them. Some even have memories of a makeshift graveyard. 533 00:37:22,885 --> 00:37:25,405 Speaker 1: When you're a rabbit Mount Me, you'll see these graves 534 00:37:26,045 --> 00:37:28,645 Speaker 1: over to the side and you don't know what's up. 535 00:37:28,925 --> 00:37:30,605 Speaker 1: But a lot of boys didn't even make it out 536 00:37:30,605 --> 00:37:34,165 Speaker 1: of Mount Me and they said that was not such 537 00:37:34,165 --> 00:37:37,565 Speaker 1: a graveyard. But I think that was the cover of 538 00:37:39,325 --> 00:37:43,725 Speaker 1: because that mouth they have been. And of course all 539 00:37:43,765 --> 00:37:48,085 Speaker 1: of this, the beatings, the abuse, the sexual assault, the 540 00:37:48,125 --> 00:37:53,405 Speaker 1: cotton quotas, the strip search, the starvation, the deaths, the graveyard, 541 00:37:54,245 --> 00:37:59,885 Speaker 1: the infinite never ending punishments were condoned, if not outright 542 00:38:00,005 --> 00:38:17,605 Speaker 1: encouraged by the school's superintendent, Eb Holloway. You can't talk 543 00:38:17,605 --> 00:38:20,805 Speaker 1: about Mount max in the nineteen sixties without talking about 544 00:38:20,805 --> 00:38:25,605 Speaker 1: Eb Holloway. For eighteen years he ran the institution, and 545 00:38:25,765 --> 00:38:28,565 Speaker 1: of all the adults who were directly responsible for what 546 00:38:28,645 --> 00:38:33,445 Speaker 1: those children endured as a superintendent, Holloway was arguably the 547 00:38:33,525 --> 00:38:36,165 Speaker 1: most to blame. He was staying in the Beith House 548 00:38:36,285 --> 00:38:39,845 Speaker 1: and Mount Meigs, so he was treated like a king. 549 00:38:41,285 --> 00:38:44,125 Speaker 1: You know, I had the Gills come down and do 550 00:38:44,285 --> 00:38:48,445 Speaker 1: all of the housework and stuff like that. It was 551 00:38:48,765 --> 00:38:55,725 Speaker 1: he was almost like the master of the plantation. There's 552 00:38:55,765 --> 00:38:59,085 Speaker 1: one specific and chilling detail that stays with Johnny about 553 00:38:59,085 --> 00:39:04,165 Speaker 1: Holloway even now. You know he larned everybody else, and 554 00:39:04,285 --> 00:39:09,285 Speaker 1: he always smiled. He'll be being you to death if 555 00:39:09,325 --> 00:39:15,645 Speaker 1: he be smad. I keep thinking about the adults who 556 00:39:15,685 --> 00:39:19,245 Speaker 1: are running the school back then, mister Glover, mister Reddy, 557 00:39:19,365 --> 00:39:23,885 Speaker 1: Fannie Matthews, and especially Evie Holloway. Who were they and 558 00:39:24,005 --> 00:39:27,085 Speaker 1: why did they treat these kids, these children who were 559 00:39:27,125 --> 00:39:31,245 Speaker 1: in their care so violently. The truth is we don't 560 00:39:31,285 --> 00:39:33,405 Speaker 1: know too much about what was going on internally at 561 00:39:33,445 --> 00:39:37,765 Speaker 1: Mount Meg's back then. We search state archives and people's 562 00:39:37,805 --> 00:39:42,285 Speaker 1: personal documents. We sent in public records requests, but we 563 00:39:42,365 --> 00:39:47,325 Speaker 1: haven't found or received any personnel records. But what we 564 00:39:47,445 --> 00:39:49,645 Speaker 1: do know is that no one really seemed to be 565 00:39:49,685 --> 00:39:54,085 Speaker 1: penalized for what was going on. The Department of Social 566 00:39:54,125 --> 00:39:57,405 Speaker 1: Welfare and the Department of Pensions in Alabama, they did 567 00:39:57,405 --> 00:40:01,005 Speaker 1: these annual reports every year. They came to the school 568 00:40:01,045 --> 00:40:03,565 Speaker 1: and they examined the grounds and they typed up these 569 00:40:03,605 --> 00:40:06,765 Speaker 1: perfunctory reports that are based basically the same every year, 570 00:40:07,805 --> 00:40:10,485 Speaker 1: and they just don't mention the violence that these kids 571 00:40:10,485 --> 00:40:14,085 Speaker 1: were enduring and the couple of times that it is 572 00:40:14,285 --> 00:40:18,725 Speaker 1: like alluded to. It's framed as fair punishment. It's framed 573 00:40:18,725 --> 00:40:24,165 Speaker 1: as reasonable. And it wasn't just that Holloway faced no backlash. 574 00:40:24,245 --> 00:40:27,005 Speaker 1: It was also that he was celebrated. He was praised 575 00:40:27,085 --> 00:40:31,685 Speaker 1: across the state. In fact, if you judged Holloway based 576 00:40:31,685 --> 00:40:33,925 Speaker 1: on what was written about him in the newspapers, you 577 00:40:33,965 --> 00:40:37,405 Speaker 1: would honestly think this guy was a hero, a champion 578 00:40:37,445 --> 00:40:40,685 Speaker 1: for kids, finding tooth and nail to secure adequate resources 579 00:40:40,725 --> 00:40:44,005 Speaker 1: and funding for them from the state of Alabama. And 580 00:40:44,085 --> 00:40:46,205 Speaker 1: this is an important thing to keep in mind here too, 581 00:40:46,325 --> 00:40:49,765 Speaker 1: because it wasn't just the abuse that was the problem. 582 00:40:49,885 --> 00:40:52,485 Speaker 1: Some of Mount Mex's problems couldn't have been solved even 583 00:40:52,485 --> 00:40:54,205 Speaker 1: if they had had the best staff in the world. 584 00:40:55,285 --> 00:40:59,285 Speaker 1: It was a chronically underfunded school. It won't be surprising 585 00:40:59,325 --> 00:41:02,205 Speaker 1: to know that the white industrial schools in Alabama had 586 00:41:02,325 --> 00:41:06,845 Speaker 1: far higher budgets while housing fewer kids and out Mount Megs. 587 00:41:06,845 --> 00:41:09,365 Speaker 1: You know, there was this double standard. A judge in 588 00:41:09,405 --> 00:41:11,245 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties said that he did not want to 589 00:41:11,245 --> 00:41:13,805 Speaker 1: approve more money for Mount Megs because they could just 590 00:41:13,805 --> 00:41:16,885 Speaker 1: sell the crops they grew to fund themselves. At the 591 00:41:16,885 --> 00:41:18,845 Speaker 1: white schools, no one was telling them to make their 592 00:41:18,885 --> 00:41:22,445 Speaker 1: own money off of crop yield. But at Mount Megs, 593 00:41:22,685 --> 00:41:25,125 Speaker 1: the state just kind of expected the black people to 594 00:41:25,205 --> 00:41:29,765 Speaker 1: make it work. Here's the other thing about Ebe Holloway. 595 00:41:30,125 --> 00:41:33,285 Speaker 1: He was technically never qualified to run Mount Megs. He 596 00:41:33,405 --> 00:41:37,165 Speaker 1: had no real background as an educator, had never worked 597 00:41:37,165 --> 00:41:40,285 Speaker 1: at a school like this, So why did the state 598 00:41:40,325 --> 00:41:45,085 Speaker 1: of Alabama hire him. Holloway was born in nineteen oh 599 00:41:45,165 --> 00:41:48,765 Speaker 1: six in South Carolina. He moved to Alabama to attend 600 00:41:48,765 --> 00:41:53,005 Speaker 1: the Tuskegee Institute founded by Booker T. Washington, an institution 601 00:41:53,085 --> 00:41:55,765 Speaker 1: that becomes an important part of our story. We'll get 602 00:41:55,765 --> 00:42:00,965 Speaker 1: to that next episode. Holloway went into agriculture, not education, 603 00:42:01,525 --> 00:42:03,765 Speaker 1: but he started gunning for the job at Mount Megs 604 00:42:03,765 --> 00:42:08,285 Speaker 1: in nineteen forty four, before the previous superintendent, JR. Wingfield 605 00:42:08,365 --> 00:42:12,525 Speaker 1: had even retired. Wingfield spent twenty seven years on the 606 00:42:12,605 --> 00:42:15,805 Speaker 1: job and was a prominent black figure in the community, 607 00:42:16,245 --> 00:42:21,325 Speaker 1: considered part of the upper echelon of black society. Starting 608 00:42:21,325 --> 00:42:25,085 Speaker 1: before Wingfield even retired, Holloway wrote letters to the governor 609 00:42:25,165 --> 00:42:28,645 Speaker 1: asking for the job, and then the governor quickly received 610 00:42:28,685 --> 00:42:32,405 Speaker 1: a flurry of other letters from Alabamians recommending Holloway for 611 00:42:32,405 --> 00:42:36,245 Speaker 1: the position, including from white men, some of whom Holloway 612 00:42:36,285 --> 00:42:39,885 Speaker 1: barely knew. It became clear that he was asking anyone 613 00:42:39,965 --> 00:42:43,645 Speaker 1: he could to recommend him, despite not being qualified for 614 00:42:43,685 --> 00:42:48,325 Speaker 1: the role. But even with all those recommendations, Holloway didn't 615 00:42:48,365 --> 00:42:52,765 Speaker 1: get the job. The governor appointed as superintendent another black 616 00:42:52,805 --> 00:42:57,845 Speaker 1: man with more experience, named Amos Parker. Holloway instead was 617 00:42:57,925 --> 00:43:03,245 Speaker 1: hired to oversee the agriculture at Mount Meg's, but Holloway 618 00:43:03,285 --> 00:43:06,725 Speaker 1: didn't give up. He still wanted to be superintendent and 619 00:43:06,805 --> 00:43:09,965 Speaker 1: seemed willing to sabotage Parker in order to get the 620 00:43:10,045 --> 00:43:16,725 Speaker 1: job in nineteen fifty one. Five years later, the governor 621 00:43:16,805 --> 00:43:19,445 Speaker 1: got another letter about Mount Megs, this time from a 622 00:43:19,445 --> 00:43:23,525 Speaker 1: white county judge. The judge asked that Amos Parker be 623 00:43:23,605 --> 00:43:27,685 Speaker 1: replaced as superintendent because of the hotbed of Negro political 624 00:43:27,725 --> 00:43:32,445 Speaker 1: activity in Montgomery. The judge insisted in his letter that 625 00:43:32,565 --> 00:43:36,365 Speaker 1: Parker belonged to the radical element that is causing much 626 00:43:36,405 --> 00:43:42,885 Speaker 1: trouble through agitation, unrest, and scheming. The judge recommended Holloway 627 00:43:42,965 --> 00:43:47,445 Speaker 1: as Parker's replacement because, in the judge's own writing, Mount 628 00:43:47,485 --> 00:43:51,045 Speaker 1: Megs is in great need of some white oversight, and 629 00:43:51,205 --> 00:43:54,365 Speaker 1: Holloway seems to be a good Negro. He is educated 630 00:43:54,605 --> 00:43:59,685 Speaker 1: and doesn't dabble in political activities. The governor wrote back 631 00:43:59,805 --> 00:44:02,565 Speaker 1: and said that the judge had bad information that Parker 632 00:44:02,605 --> 00:44:05,965 Speaker 1: didn't have radical tendencies, and it was true that as 633 00:44:05,965 --> 00:44:09,765 Speaker 1: far as we know, Parker wasn't particularly radical, but he 634 00:44:09,885 --> 00:44:12,765 Speaker 1: was more willing to speak out about what Mount Meg's needed. 635 00:44:13,765 --> 00:44:15,685 Speaker 1: In March of nineteen fifty one, he went to the 636 00:44:15,725 --> 00:44:18,205 Speaker 1: state legislature and he told them that the conditions at 637 00:44:18,205 --> 00:44:21,645 Speaker 1: the school were deplorable. He said the kids were using 638 00:44:21,645 --> 00:44:24,765 Speaker 1: fertilizer sacks, for towels, and that many of them didn't 639 00:44:24,805 --> 00:44:28,725 Speaker 1: even have shoes. It's not radical to say that kids 640 00:44:28,725 --> 00:44:31,725 Speaker 1: should have shoes to wear, but it was bold. It 641 00:44:31,885 --> 00:44:36,605 Speaker 1: made the news, and eventually the governor decided that Parker 642 00:44:36,685 --> 00:44:40,205 Speaker 1: was more trouble than he was worth. In nineteen fifty two, 643 00:44:40,365 --> 00:44:44,365 Speaker 1: it became official. The governor fired Parker and made eb 644 00:44:44,565 --> 00:44:50,685 Speaker 1: Holloway the new superintendent of Mount Meg's. Every superintendent up 645 00:44:50,765 --> 00:44:55,085 Speaker 1: until and including Holloway was black. In fact, Mount Megs 646 00:44:55,125 --> 00:44:59,245 Speaker 1: was operated exclusively by black people for a long time. 647 00:44:59,285 --> 00:45:02,725 Speaker 1: That was mandated by law. Black children were not allowed 648 00:45:02,765 --> 00:45:06,205 Speaker 1: to be taught by white teachers, but even after the 649 00:45:06,285 --> 00:45:12,045 Speaker 1: law changed, the pattern continued. Still, state officials were specific 650 00:45:12,085 --> 00:45:14,645 Speaker 1: about what kind of black people they wanted in the job. 651 00:45:15,365 --> 00:45:18,965 Speaker 1: It seemed the State of Alabama preferred staff members who 652 00:45:18,965 --> 00:45:27,245 Speaker 1: were ambivalent to the black quote unquote cause timpt Timpta ride, timpte, 653 00:45:27,485 --> 00:45:30,965 Speaker 1: cities want to check lime light, oh bo, and little 654 00:45:31,045 --> 00:45:39,405 Speaker 1: minds oh bo a little line. By the time Denny 655 00:45:39,445 --> 00:45:42,365 Speaker 1: Abbott started working as a juvenile probation officer in nineteen 656 00:45:42,445 --> 00:45:45,485 Speaker 1: sixty one, it was clear that Holloway's allegiance wasn't to 657 00:45:45,565 --> 00:45:48,965 Speaker 1: the kids, but to the white board members. He would 658 00:45:49,005 --> 00:45:52,805 Speaker 1: do whatever the white authorities are, those board of trustees 659 00:45:53,605 --> 00:45:56,725 Speaker 1: told him to do. They raised some pigs and other 660 00:45:57,165 --> 00:45:59,645 Speaker 1: chickens and things like that at Mountain Mason. So when 661 00:45:59,685 --> 00:46:03,045 Speaker 1: they slaughtered them for the meat, guess what happened. The 662 00:46:03,165 --> 00:46:06,605 Speaker 1: white trustees pulled up in their brand new cars and 663 00:46:06,965 --> 00:46:09,045 Speaker 1: all of the meat was put into the trunks of 664 00:46:09,125 --> 00:46:11,925 Speaker 1: their cars and they left and the kids had nothing. 665 00:46:13,485 --> 00:46:18,165 Speaker 1: You had a battle and shake balls put a captain, 666 00:46:19,365 --> 00:46:22,445 Speaker 1: And Denny says that despite Mountain Magsi's charter that saved 667 00:46:22,525 --> 00:46:25,485 Speaker 1: three seats on the board for black people, all the 668 00:46:25,525 --> 00:46:30,005 Speaker 1: trustees in the nineteen sixties were white, safe for one Holloway, 669 00:46:30,965 --> 00:46:33,925 Speaker 1: and many of the board members had land surrounding Mountain Megs. 670 00:46:34,485 --> 00:46:36,605 Speaker 1: So when it came time to get their crops harvested, 671 00:46:37,045 --> 00:46:39,325 Speaker 1: guess who did the work. They would pick up the 672 00:46:39,365 --> 00:46:42,805 Speaker 1: phone and call the superintendent, and the sup the kids 673 00:46:42,885 --> 00:46:46,165 Speaker 1: over there in their truck. Did they get any compensation 674 00:46:46,245 --> 00:46:49,725 Speaker 1: for that? No, all I got was beatings when they 675 00:46:49,805 --> 00:46:53,205 Speaker 1: didn't do enough work or the overseers didn't think they 676 00:46:53,285 --> 00:46:57,325 Speaker 1: picked enough cotton, and they were physically beaten every day 677 00:46:57,365 --> 00:47:00,405 Speaker 1: in the field. So I don't know how much more 678 00:47:01,405 --> 00:47:05,085 Speaker 1: you could describe a slave camp than that tell them 679 00:47:05,125 --> 00:47:08,205 Speaker 1: to read in chemn tay right the cheven two ties 680 00:47:08,205 --> 00:47:14,525 Speaker 1: want to check line right before. In some ways nineteen sixties, 681 00:47:14,525 --> 00:47:16,645 Speaker 1: Mount Megs was like an early prototype of the for 682 00:47:16,845 --> 00:47:21,645 Speaker 1: profit prison, but it certainly wasn't designed that way. When 683 00:47:21,685 --> 00:47:24,685 Speaker 1: a black woman and student of Booker T. Washington named 684 00:47:24,725 --> 00:47:28,165 Speaker 1: Cornelia Bowen founded Mount Megs in nineteen oh eight, she 685 00:47:28,405 --> 00:47:31,405 Speaker 1: envisioned a safe haven for black kids who weren't being 686 00:47:31,485 --> 00:47:35,445 Speaker 1: served by the state of Alabama. She believed in reform 687 00:47:35,645 --> 00:47:41,765 Speaker 1: through industrial education, and often she was successful, and without her, 688 00:47:41,885 --> 00:47:44,685 Speaker 1: America might not have had one of its most legendary 689 00:47:44,765 --> 00:47:51,885 Speaker 1: black athletes, baseball player Satchel Page. That's next time, Unreformed. 690 00:47:54,845 --> 00:47:57,925 Speaker 1: Unreformed The Story of the Alabama Industrial School for Negro 691 00:47:58,125 --> 00:48:00,845 Speaker 1: Children is a production of School of Humans in iHeartMedia. 692 00:48:01,405 --> 00:48:03,765 Speaker 1: This episode was written by me Josie Duffie, Rice and 693 00:48:03,845 --> 00:48:07,445 Speaker 1: Taylor von Laslie. Script supervisors Florence Burrow Adams, and our 694 00:48:07,485 --> 00:48:10,485 Speaker 1: producer is Gabbie Watts, who had additional writing and production 695 00:48:10,525 --> 00:48:14,285 Speaker 1: support from Sherry Scott. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott, Elsie 696 00:48:14,325 --> 00:48:17,445 Speaker 1: Crowley Brandon Barr, Matt Arnette and me. Sound design and 697 00:48:17,525 --> 00:48:20,485 Speaker 1: mix is by Jesse Niswanger. Music is by Ben Soli. 698 00:48:20,725 --> 00:48:24,205 Speaker 1: Additional recordings are courtesy of the Alabama Center for Traditional Culture. 699 00:48:24,525 --> 00:48:26,645 Speaker 1: The song's featured in this episode of From Vire Hall, 700 00:48:26,805 --> 00:48:31,125 Speaker 1: Mary lou Bendoff with seb Petway and Richard Amerson. Special 701 00:48:31,205 --> 00:48:34,045 Speaker 1: things to the Alabama Department of Archives and History, Michael Harriet, 702 00:48:34,165 --> 00:48:36,445 Speaker 1: Floyd Hall, Kevin Nutt, Van Newkirk, and all of the 703 00:48:36,525 --> 00:48:40,245 Speaker 1: survivors of Mountmeg's willing to share their stories. If you 704 00:48:40,325 --> 00:48:42,085 Speaker 1: are someone you know attendant Mount Megs and would like 705 00:48:42,125 --> 00:48:45,285 Speaker 1: to be in contact, please email Mountmegs Podcast at gmail 706 00:48:45,365 --> 00:48:49,005 Speaker 1: dot com. That's Mt m e i g S Podcast 707 00:48:49,125 --> 00:49:07,525 Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. School of Humans