1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Annie and this is Bridget and you're 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: listening to stuff mob never told you. A couple of 3 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 1: weeks ago, we had an episode about cat calling in 4 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: Paris and how there's a new law in Paris that 5 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: is trying to tamp down on the cat calling there. 6 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: And we mentioned in the episode an episode that Kristen 7 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: and Caroline, previous host of this show, had done, called 8 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: is cat calling harassment? We kind of spoiled it the answers, yes, 9 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: but still still a good episode, um, and a great 10 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: a great primer or if you have want more examples 11 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: of cat calling after hearing that, one great episode to 12 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: listen to and it's a good dive and the research 13 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 1: around how damaging it can be, Like I learned a 14 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: lot about cat calling that I found very validating for 15 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: ways that I have felt. Yeah, and UM, I remember 16 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: at that time when they when that episode came out, 17 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: it was around the time of that video that we 18 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: talked about in the episode of the woman walking around 19 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: New York for eleven hours, and um, kind of the 20 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: response in social media from a lot of dudes was 21 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: can't you take a compliment? And at the time I 22 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: was working as the producer on the show and primarily 23 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: video and um we made a video going off of 24 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: that the Twitter kind of thread hashtag where it was 25 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: like if this happened to men, and it was so 26 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: funny to do O, hey, dude, really like your suit? 27 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: Oh man, I once accidentally cat called a man. Oh 28 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: I forgot about this. I was in I wasn't. I 29 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: was in a car and I saw who I had 30 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: just earlier, had just seen a male friend. And that 31 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: friend has a very He's very tall and has a 32 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: very particular gait about him, like he walks in a 33 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: very specific way. And in this car, I saw who 34 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: I thought from the back was my friend. Same gate, 35 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: We're in the same you know, same look. And I 36 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is gonna be funny. So I 37 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: rolled down the window and I drove up the side 38 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: him and I said pull over, that ass is too fat, 39 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:30,679 Speaker 1: and thinking thinking this is my friend and he was 40 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: going to laugh and it would be amazing, but it 41 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: wasn't him, Like what happened? I did that play out? 42 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: I think I just like murmured sorry and drow and 43 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: I feeled out. He's telling that story of like the 44 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 1: time somebody stopped their car and said, oh, pull over. 45 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: That ass is too fat. But if he's a listening 46 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: to the show, and everything's gonna make sense to him 47 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: if it if he is, I am so sorry. I 48 00:02:58,360 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: was not. That was supposed to be a joke that 49 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: did in land. I will send you a free shirt 50 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: or something. I'm so sorry. That's funny. I had something 51 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: that wasn't kind of similar happened to me, but I 52 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 1: wasn't around, so I guess it didn't happen to me 53 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: at all. But a friend of mine saw someone who 54 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: he thought was me and running on the belt line 55 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: and he was on his bike and he like pedaled 56 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 1: up behind her, and he said, what are you running from? 57 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: And it wasn't me that woman went woman called the cops. 58 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: I mean, that would have scared me as well. But luckily, 59 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: he said, she laughed like he was, like, you're not 60 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: my friend, and she started laughing. So christis averted hopefully. Well. 61 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: The examples of cat calling well here in this episode 62 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: are a little less humorous, unfortunately unfortunately, So please enjoy. 63 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: We hope you learned a lot from the gossic episode 64 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: on cat calling. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm 65 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we are revisiting a 66 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: topic that we talked about in two thousand eleven. But 67 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 1: we absolutely need to talk about it again because there 68 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: are lots of conversations going on these days about cat 69 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: calling and street harassment. Yeah, because I'm sure you guys 70 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: are familiar with the Hollyback video that just came out 71 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: not too long ago, featuring a woman she's an actress, 72 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: walking through the streets of New York for ten hours 73 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: and facing numerous cat calls and street harassment from men 74 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: on the street. The video itself attracted a lot of 75 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: controversy because of the way it was edited to edit 76 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: out a lot of white men who were doing cat 77 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: calling in various street harassment things UM to feature mostly 78 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: men of color. But that being said, the video it's 79 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: self sparked a huge conversation online between and among men 80 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: and women about what is street harassment? When is it 81 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: just complimenting, when is it something scary? And what does 82 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: it mean for all of us at large? Yeah, and 83 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: speaking of Hallaback, which is the nonprofit that UM produced 84 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: that viral video, we first talked about street harassment on 85 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: the podcast when Halliback was first gaining a lot of 86 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: Media Attention UM. It was founded in two thousand five 87 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: by Emily May and it was started specifically to attract 88 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 1: more attention to the issue of street harassment and to 89 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: facilitate bigger conversations about the frequency of street harassment and 90 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: how it very much is harassment, and also give people 91 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: tools to fight back and also connect with other people 92 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: on this issue. And the fact that pretty much any 93 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: time a woman says gender, transgender and gay men as 94 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: well leave their houses and walk down the sidewalk a 95 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: lot of times that means dealing with what we euphemistically 96 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: call cat calling. And speaking to that viral video as well, 97 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: I mean, the response to it just highlighted problems on 98 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: top of problems. For the very fact that Shoshanna Roberts, 99 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: who is the actress Senate, immediately received rape threats. She 100 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: has alerted the police in the neighborhood she lives in 101 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: that this is what's going on. She these are the 102 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: threats she's received, so in case something happens, they'll know 103 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: who she is when she calls. Yeah, And to me, 104 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: that's I mean, not to get off on a tangent, 105 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: but there's echoes of what's happening with the need of 106 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: sarches in there too, in terms of like, so you 107 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: you call out a problem, people say, no, it's not 108 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: a problem, but I'm going to threaten to kill you 109 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: or raypio or rape. Yeah, exactly. And so another issue 110 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: of course with things that this video sort of dug 111 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: up is the fact that a lot of people's response 112 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: to it is just women, this is your problem. I'm 113 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: just trying to give you a compliment. You're playing the 114 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: victim role. You just want to be the victim. You 115 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:22,239 Speaker 1: just want attention, and you know, making it more about 116 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: the woman and it being her problem than it being 117 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: a social problem at large. It's just a compliment. Learn 118 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: how to take a compliment. Um. And if you're curious 119 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: on the difference between cat calls and compliments, you can 120 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: go to stuff I've Never told U's YouTube page and 121 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: watch the video if cat calls for compliments, in which 122 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: you'll get a lot of examples of the differences between 123 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: the two. So first up, though, let's define street harassment, 124 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: and also offers some statistics so we can get a 125 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: grasp of how often this is happening. This is not 126 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: just something happening to Shoshana Roberts when she is making 127 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: a video for Hollaback. So street harassment, to define it 128 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: is the sexual harassment of typically CIS and trans women 129 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: in public spaces by typically men who are strangers, and 130 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: that includes both verbal and nonverbal behavior. It tends to 131 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: be comments on the woman's physique and her very presence 132 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: in public a lot of the time. It also has 133 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: to do with smiling. Hey, woman over there, smile, smile. 134 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: Let's see you smile. So how common is it? There 135 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 1: was a nationally representative studies sponsored by Stop Street Harassment 136 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: which found that sixty of all women and of all 137 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: men had experienced it, and among the women had been 138 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: sexually touched, had been followed, and nine percent had been 139 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: forced to do something sexual. I think that is a 140 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: different way of saying sexual assault. UM. LGBT identified respondents 141 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: were also likelier to experience it. One statistic they highlighted 142 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:04,239 Speaker 1: was it by age seventeen, seventy percent of LGBT individuals 143 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: experienced street harassment compared to of heterosexual people. And it 144 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: also happens around the world. Yeah. Um. The site medium 145 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: got into this by assigning diaries essentially to women in 146 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: cities all around the world. In New York, San Francisco, 147 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: Los Angeles, Mexico City, Berlin in Italy, in Mongolia in 148 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: tel Aviv, Nairobi in Singapore. Um And based on these 149 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: women's experiences, they found that the woman in Mexico City 150 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: experienced the worst cat calling. She had a high of 151 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: twenty nine cat calls in a single week, versus Tel 152 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: Aviv in Los Angeles, which tied for the least cat 153 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: call heavy locations with just two each. And there were 154 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: a lot of common hallmarks for this kind of behavior. UM. 155 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: It tended to happen most often during COMMU time, specifically 156 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: when women were alone, although men doing the cat calling, 157 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: We're just as likely to be alone as with other men. UM. 158 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: And the most common form of it just commanded a smile. 159 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: They just want to see a smile, Carol Lone. Yeah. 160 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: I used to get this um all the time when 161 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: I took public transportation to work. Not that I would 162 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: not continue too, It's just I moved and blah blah blah. 163 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: I just don't want you to think poorly of me. 164 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: I wish I could take it anyway. UM. Yeah, I 165 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: used to get this all the time. And what was 166 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 1: so weird is I never got it from a man 167 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: in a business suit. I always got it from homeless 168 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: men who were hanging out at the train station. I 169 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: mean that's my personal experience. I know everyone has different experiences, 170 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: but and speaking to that experience, some people have talked 171 00:10:54,280 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: about the socio economic intersections with this, because it's a 172 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: lot about not compliments, obviously, but it has a lot 173 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: to do with power and power over public spaces and 174 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 1: cat calling and street harassment. I should say, is often 175 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: used as a tool by people who might feel more 176 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: economically and socially marginalized to assert their power. And so, 177 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: in speaking to the BBC about why some men do this, 178 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: Katherine Zipple, who is a sociology professor at Northeastern University, said, quote, 179 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: oftentimes it's not really about the women. It's just about 180 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,839 Speaker 1: the men performing masculine acts for each other and establishing 181 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: a pecking order amongst themselves. What's really going on is 182 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: the dynamic among men, and in that it's so it's 183 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: so crucial to this conversation to understanding it that this 184 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: is the dynamic among men that's happening in public spaces, 185 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: right because and I mean this goes back forever as 186 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:08,239 Speaker 1: far as the conflict that occurs and has always occurred 187 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: when women enter a public sphere. I mean, this is 188 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: not cat calling and street harassment is not a new conversation. 189 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: Kristen and I read one article that was like, oh, 190 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: this is a problem that goes all the way back 191 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: to the nineties seventies, and it definitely has roots much 192 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: much deeper, and that go back much much farther when 193 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: women first left the home to begin with. Exactly pretty 194 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: much as soon as we began entering the public sphere 195 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: on a day to day basis, this issue arose. And 196 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 1: a lot of this information is coming from a self 197 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: Freedman who is a scholar in Stanford's Claimant Institute for 198 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: Gender Research, and she also wrote the book Redefining Rape, 199 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: And just speaking of some etymology when it comes to 200 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 1: cat calling, I thought it was really interesting. The term 201 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: comes from theater. It goes back to the mid seventeenth 202 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: cent a combination of cat and call, originally denoting a 203 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:10,319 Speaker 1: kind of whistle or squeaking instrument used to express disapproval. Now, 204 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: when we get into street harassment in the nineteenth century 205 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: and into the early twentieth century, it went by a 206 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: different name. It wasn't so much cat calling but mashing 207 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: and the masher, both of which also have theatrical roots. Yeah, this, 208 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: Kristen and I got so caught up in this reading 209 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: about the masters. It is fascinating stuff and it is 210 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: just further proof that the harassment of women in public 211 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: spaces is definitely not a new thing. So the term 212 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: mash comes from nineteenth century theater slang meaning a sweetheart 213 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: or a crush, typically of a male audience member on 214 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: a female actress, and for example, in eighty two a 215 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: theater guide to find mashers as quote, masculine theater goers 216 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 1: whose why I old ambition is to attract and hold 217 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: female attention. Now, the first time I heard about mashing 218 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: was actually um in reading about sort of the cultural 219 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: history of female friendship. And around the same time too, 220 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: you would describe having intensely strong, like platonically passionate feelings 221 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: for a girlfriend as a smash, and they would also 222 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: they would exchange these um mash notes to each other. 223 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: But outside of that realm and outside the theater world, 224 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: mashers became known in the late nineteenth and early twentieth 225 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: century as the aggressive male street flirt who quote were 226 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: usually depicted in newspapers and editorial cartoons as well dressed 227 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: white men whose behaviors were more irritating and comical than menacing. 228 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: And there were also men who viewed themselves as lady 229 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: killers along the lines of a Don Juan and other 230 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: Natalie dressed gentlemen, because that was another thing. They were 231 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: often very very snappy dressers. Um. And there was also 232 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: the Parisian version of the flneur, which is the detached 233 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:17,119 Speaker 1: male spectator of the urban crowd. Yeah, basically men whose 234 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: quote unquote job it is to stand around and just 235 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: watch women and provide their commentary as if they are 236 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,359 Speaker 1: at the theater, and also attract their attention through their 237 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: through their fashionable clothes like Dandy's. And I think it's 238 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 1: key to note though that in popular culture at the time, 239 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: like those editorial cartoons that Kristen mentioned, it is important 240 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: to mention that they were depicted as white. That's key 241 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: because these are snappily dressed gentlemen. They're they're mostly harmless ladies. 242 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: They're just they're just offering you a quirky kind of compliment. 243 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: They're just kind of annoying. It's no big deal because 244 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: at the time the percept shin of black men interacting 245 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: with society white society ladies was painted in an entirely 246 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: different picture at the time, of course, like even black 247 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: men making direct eye contact with a white woman would 248 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: have been considered outright sexual assault. And so when you 249 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: code nonviolent mashers as white it says a lot about 250 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: sort of racial divisions at the time. Yeah, because um, 251 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: really it was age of consent campaigns and these antimash 252 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: or initiatives that were mostly focused to white men, whereas 253 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: black men were considered violent sexual creatures, they were the rapists. 254 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: White men were only to be feared for perhaps whisking 255 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: away young woman who was too young to consent or 256 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: doing this mashing, when in reality Freeman talks about it 257 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: was native born white men because new immigrants to the 258 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: country were also lumped into us as well and considered 259 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: more deviant and more of a danger to um, white 260 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: American women, whereas it was often the white men who 261 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 1: were the worst when it came to street harassment, since 262 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: they claimed the streets as their territory. Which does that 263 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: sound familiar, Yeah, exactly, And so I mean, what's going 264 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: on here the social context that we're talking about, like 265 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: Kristen said, I mean, here are white men who have 266 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: you know, quote unquote been in charge. Then you have 267 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: this influx of women who have always been at the home, immigrants, 268 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: where did they even come from? And people just have 269 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: other classes and backgrounds. So suddenly white, these white men 270 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: that were talking about these masters, are having to assert 271 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 1: their perceived dominance over everyone around them all of a sudden, 272 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 1: for the first time in these urban spaces, you have gender, class, 273 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: and race all interacting and encountering one another in new 274 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: ways for the very time. And along with this, not 275 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: only do you just have generally women entering the public sphere, 276 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: but you also have the rise of department stores, this 277 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: whole consumer culture that would get wealthy women out of 278 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: their homes to go shopping. But also you have female 279 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: clerks who would be working at the department stores and 280 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: other jobs being open, those low level clerical jobs being 281 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: open more and more to women. And so meanwhile you 282 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: have mashing sort of being placed on the more benign 283 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: end of the sexual assault spectrum at the time because 284 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: it was less criticized and say underage sex and coercive seduction, 285 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 1: but nonetheless received national press attention right as can be 286 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 1: seen in the nineteen and six Chicago Tribune headline what 287 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 1: can be done to rid the Palmer House block of mashers? 288 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 1: And I mean this was, this was There was a 289 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: lot of editorial space dedicated to drawing attention to these, 290 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: you know, men who stood on street corners and hollered 291 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: at women and made it difficult for them to enter 292 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: and exit their buildings. Well in women's magazines also started 293 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: advising lady readers to avoid eye contact with men on 294 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: the street and from doing anything to call attention to themselves, 295 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: which also sounds awfully familiar to advice that we still 296 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: here as women today. Um. And there was a nineteen 297 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: o nine article in the New York Times, um supposedly 298 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: written by a working girl from Detroit, or maybe it 299 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: was a letter to the editor, um. And it noted 300 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: how she figured out that the blank looks on women's 301 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: faces on the subways were their quote armor against the 302 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: offensive stairs of the New York masher. I actually out 303 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: loud when I read that, said, oh yeah, oh yeah, 304 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 1: oh yeah, because don't you don't you feel your face 305 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: go dead? Well, you kind of do put on your 306 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: armor sometimes when you when you know you're about to 307 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: go into a public space. I'd do it any time. 308 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 1: I'd start as soon as I exit, I drive away. 309 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: When I'm jogging and hit the main thoroughfare, it's sort 310 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 1: of like, all right, here we go. And I mean, 311 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to be completely honest here and say that 312 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: I'm not putting on my dead face because I think 313 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: I might encounter some annoying women on the train or 314 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: some annoying women at the mall or wherever. I'm putting 315 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: on my dead face because I know that if I 316 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: make eye contact with a man in a confined space, 317 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: whether that's on a train, in an elevator, whatever, I'm 318 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: opening myself up to entering into an interaction that I 319 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 1: might not want to be a part of. Yeah, and 320 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: we talked about how there was that Guardian article we 321 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 1: saw that said women have been fighting against street harassment 322 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 1: since the nineteen seventies with the Reclaim the Night movement, 323 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: but women really started hollying back in the United States 324 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 1: at least in the nineteen tens. And we're going to 325 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: talk about some of the ways that they started fighting 326 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: back against the masher, smashing the masher. When we come 327 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:06,919 Speaker 1: right back from a wick break, So picking up in 328 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: the nineteen tens when women start hollowing back. As Kristen said, um, 329 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: they really were not going to stand for these distasteful 330 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: mashers on the street anymore, and they took matters into 331 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: their own hands. Initially, however, the press had enlisted men 332 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: to help protect women, but women were like, no, listen, 333 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 1: I'm busy fighting for the vote and fighting for equal 334 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: space and society, and I want my greater mobility. I 335 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: want my access to work and leisure activities. I'm not 336 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: going to let men interfere with my ability to give 337 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: from point A to point B. And so I'm going 338 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: to take boxing classes. I'm going to take self defense classes, 339 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: and as evidence by a photo that I found of 340 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: a woman poking a man with her hatpin, I'm gonna 341 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: learn how to defend myself in general. Yeah. In nineteen ten, 342 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 1: the Women's Equal Suffrage Association sought to confront mashers or 343 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 1: male flirts or as they called them, obnoxious all glows, 344 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: and they wanted to appoint special agents as female policemen 345 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: to patrol for mashers. And this was actually how some 346 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: of the very first female police officers were hired in 347 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: the US. I didn't know that that's when my brain exploded, Carol, 348 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: including one here in Atlanta. Yeah, but it was all 349 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: because women really wanted other women to help guide them 350 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: through the streets and keep their eyes peeled for the mashers. 351 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: But in the meantime, a number of women began taking 352 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 1: up exercise because this was also the early days of 353 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,719 Speaker 1: physical exercise becoming part of you know, the the healthy 354 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: person's regimen. But some women also took boxing lessons to 355 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: protect themselves against mashers. One this is Frank Gilbert in Cleveland, 356 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: took boxing lessons and ended up clocking a streetcar masher. 357 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: And she told the press that she wanted to form 358 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 1: a self defense quote Society for the Suppression and Annihilation 359 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: of mashers. Don't mess with Mrs Frank Gilbert. She's probably 360 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: met because no one even knows her first name. Well, 361 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: and then speaking again of hat Pins, we get other 362 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: stories of women and girls actively defending themselves against mashers, 363 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: and these really were pressed Darling's these stories people loved 364 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: reading about them. And what was so great and what 365 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 1: I think we need more of today if we're continuing 366 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: themes today, the fact that the tone was respectful, it 367 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: was admiring, it was supportive that The general overall theme 368 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: of these stories was like, yeah, good for you. Women. 369 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: Don't take that awful mashing from those awful mashers on 370 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: the street corner. You need to defend yourself. And by 371 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: twenty around three hundred female police officers had been hired 372 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: around the country at larger municipal police forces, specifically to 373 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: deal with this masher problem. Which makes me realize that 374 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: we have not done a podcast on women and police officers. 375 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: But hey, now we have our jumping off point for that. 376 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 1: And I mean, speaking of legal issues, women who were 377 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: victims of street harassment were strongly encouraged to prosecute their tormentors. 378 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 1: There were a few brave souls who really stepped up 379 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: and said, no, I'm taking this guy to court, even 380 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: though it could mean dragging your good name through the mud, 381 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: even though people could perceive it as being some type 382 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 1: of scandal or you sort of speaking out of your 383 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: feminine womanly turn. Um. There's just a lot of women 384 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: at this time saying, look, you guys, you won't give 385 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: me the vote. Well that was earlier, but I mean, 386 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 1: I'm not going to stand up for this stuff anymore. Well, 387 00:24:53,000 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 1: it was especially radical for black women to prosecute and 388 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 1: in court as well, because up to this point, I 389 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: mean and still with this too, and we talked about 390 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: this in our episode on the history of a rape 391 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: in the United States, how all of the focus on 392 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 1: mashers was more concerned and really exclusively concerned over the 393 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: safety of white women on the streets, because this is 394 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: when we have the prevailing idea that, well, sexual assault 395 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: can't really happen to black women because they're hyper sexualized 396 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: to begin with. And you also still have, you know, 397 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: the construct of the black man as the violent rapists 398 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 1: targeting white women. But there was a lot of conversation 399 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,719 Speaker 1: around street harassment in um, particularly in black newspapers, of 400 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: women talking to other women about this, and so by 401 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: the twenties you do start to see more black women too, 402 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 1: getting more directly involved in this because can you imagine 403 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: at the time, being a black woman bringing a charge 404 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: and math your charge against a white man. That would 405 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: have been I mean, I'm sure that would have been 406 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 1: scandalizing for some people. But then after women get the 407 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: vote with the nineteenth Amendment in and with the end 408 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: of World War One, we see the antimasher movement died down. 409 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it really reached this fever pitch and then 410 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: fades away as if it never happened. Almost. Yeah, but 411 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: it's I mean, the context of it fading away is 412 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: sort of ikey, because you you lose that whole idea 413 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: of chivalrous masculinity and men enlisting men to help protect 414 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: women from guys like that to the assertion of a 415 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 1: more aggressive ideal of manhood. Around the same time that 416 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: female flirtation becomes more popular and popularly depicted by actresses 417 00:26:55,240 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: on screen light Clara Bow and so you get this intimate, 418 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 1: this this prevailing notion that things like cat calling and 419 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: street harassment are almost just more comical and normalized because hey, 420 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: they want to flirt with me. Yeah, it's almost the 421 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: other side of the coin of we have the the 422 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: emergence of the new woman. We have a sexuality starting 423 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 1: to kind of become slightly more uh normalized in terms 424 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: of women expressing it as well as men. And so 425 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: with that though, it is that idea of well you 426 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 1: want this, don't you. So here you go, like, why 427 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: why would it be strange at all for me to 428 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: comment on your body if you're wearing clothes that are 429 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: more revealing than ever before and if you're wearing makeup 430 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: like an actress on the screen and you are actively 431 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: flirting with men, well then why are you Why don't 432 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: you want to be talked to and yelled out on 433 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 1: the street? And a still friedman sums up this this 434 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: transition pretty well. Uh in redefining rape, she writes. After 435 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties, the negotiation of urban space for the 436 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: purposes of wage earning, shopping, or flirtation increasingly took the 437 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: form of individual resistance rather than a social movement. For 438 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: a short period, however, the revolt against the masher provided 439 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: a political response to sexual vulnerability. Tributes to self defense, 440 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: suffragious visions of police authority, the willingness of black women 441 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: to report white men to authorities, and the reactions of 442 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 1: black men all contested white men's sexual entitlements. And I mean, 443 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: I think that goes back to what I was saying 444 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: about how great it was that newspapers back then we're 445 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: cheering women on for taking these men on. I mean, 446 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: that's on the one hand, women, you shouldn't have to 447 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: defend yourselves against these men. It shouldn't be happening. But 448 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: the fact that they are being vocal and active, physically 449 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: active about standing up to these guys and ended up 450 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: being cheered on for it. I mean, I think that's 451 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: an amazing thing. Well, and it's just so incredible to think, 452 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: in mind boggling to think about the fact that we've 453 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: been literally fighting for freedom in a public space for 454 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: a century plus now, since we've been in a public 455 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: space exactly. And so the question then is why why 456 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: now this sort of twenty one century antimash er movement revival? Um. 457 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: I think a lot of it has to do with 458 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: feminism and technology, kind of the the perfect intersection of 459 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: those two things. Because if you look in the nineteen seventies, 460 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: Second Way feminists absolutely focused on street harassment. They started 461 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: the Reclaim the Night also known as Take Back the 462 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: Night initiatives UM, which again you have the focus on 463 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: street harassment as more women entering the public and male 464 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: dominated spaces of women, you know, sort of the revived 465 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: idea of hey, we and go get jobs perhaps, um. 466 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: But then again it sort of dies down a bit 467 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: until two thousand five when Emily May starts Hollow Back, 468 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:15,479 Speaker 1: which really started, I mean an incredible movement. Yeah, And 469 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: this is it's such a product of its time in 470 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: terms of being a digital thing, and you know, you 471 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: go back to women who are taking boxing classes at 472 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: the turn of the twentieth century and saying, I'm not 473 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: going to put up with this. I'm going to learn 474 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: how to defend myself. And then you fast forward to 475 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: the two thousands and you have women who are actually 476 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: snapping cell phone pictures of the guys who are verbally 477 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: attacking them, or, in the case of the woman who 478 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: inspired hollyback efforts, she snapped a cell phone picture of 479 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: a guy who was publicly masturbating while staring at her, 480 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: which she was then able to use successfully in his prosecution. Yeah, 481 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,719 Speaker 1: because while while cat calling is not illegal in New 482 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: York City, it is in fact illegal to masturbate in 483 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,479 Speaker 1: public just f y I UM. But by taking on 484 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: street harassment from the social media approach, it has empowered 485 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: men and women to identify and call out their harassers. 486 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: And Emily May has talked before about how um the 487 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: idea evolved to not just from uh, the that initial 488 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: cell phone photo, but also in conversations with guy friends 489 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: of hers about the experience of walking around and one 490 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: of them commenting, like, you walked down a completely different 491 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: metaphorically speaking sidewalk than I do. Just like they hadn't 492 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: even realized before that experience of what street harassment feels like. 493 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: And I think that's why a lot of times, in 494 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: response to these conversations, the knee jerk deflection is it's 495 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: just a compliment. Why are you victimizing yourself? But the 496 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: fact that it typically happens when you are isolated or 497 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: possibly with other women. But I don't think I've ever 498 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: gotten yelled at when I've been with a male friend 499 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: or a boyfriend, or a brother or a father, whoever. Um, 500 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 1: it's very specific in that kind of approach. It's intended 501 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: to make you feel vulnerable, right exactly, And I mean 502 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: in terms of perspective. There was the one kind of 503 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: social experiment that we read about where a woman dressed 504 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 1: up like a man and a man dressed up like 505 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: a woman, and they sent them on their way through 506 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: the streets, and the woman felt reported that she felt 507 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,960 Speaker 1: such relief at being invisible for once, that just being 508 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: able to freaking walk down the street from point A 509 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: to point B. Whereas the man who was wearing fake 510 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: breasts and everything, I mean, he was dressed as a woman. Uh, 511 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: found himself, putting on his jacket to avoid to try 512 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: to deflect people staring at him at his fake chest, 513 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: UM and wishing that he had more clothes on because 514 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: he just felt so gross being stared up. Well, and 515 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: we heard from a gay guy not too long ago 516 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: wrote into us UM because he has long hair, he 517 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: tends to wear tighter jeans. And I believe we even 518 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: read the letter on UM a podcast episode a while back. 519 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: But he was walking down the street going home or 520 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 1: going somewhere and was aggressively yelled at by a guy 521 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: in a car who mistook him for a woman. And 522 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: he said that he was so it was so terrifying 523 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: because the person followed him for a little while and 524 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: he finally turned around and yelled back at him. But 525 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: he had never experienced that before. And the following I 526 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: don't know if you've experienced this before, Caroline, but UM, 527 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: I'll never forget being in Bushwick in New York once 528 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: with a girlfriend of mine and we were walking somewhere 529 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: and we were followed for a few blocks. It was terrifying. 530 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: We eventually ducked into a bar we happened to run 531 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: across just to be around other people. UM and and 532 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: he's taught talked about this guy, this listener in his 533 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: letter talked about how afterwards he was just so confused 534 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: and I was wondering what he had done to bring 535 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 1: it on himself. And the answer is nothing, because this 536 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: is an issue that has been going on in this 537 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: fight for safety and public spaces for so long. Yeah, 538 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: And I mean that's where that's where I mean what 539 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: you just said is where it's evident that this is 540 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: a problem of individuals. Certainly, it's a problem of the 541 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: men who choose to harass people, men and women on 542 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,760 Speaker 1: the street, but it's also part of such a huge 543 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 1: cultural issue of of women's not only women's safety and 544 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: and men's safety too, but of allowing people to just exist, 545 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 1: allowing people to go about their business in public well, 546 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 1: and we need to I want to re emphasize as well, 547 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: the fact that a lot of these conversations are focused 548 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: on usually since gender women, but trans women are at 549 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: much heightened levels not only for being at risk of 550 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: street harassment, but outright violence and attack in public spaces 551 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 1: as well. And that's something that you know needs to 552 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: be addressed too. And it's not just something that's happening 553 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: in the US, even though um, a New Zealand camera 554 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: crew conducted the same kind of social experiment as the 555 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 1: Hollyback video where they had a model, an actual model, 556 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 1: go out on the street and walk around in a 557 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: busy place and she got a key cat called zero times. 558 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,800 Speaker 1: She got stopped once for someone like asking her for directions, 559 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: And so it raised a question of, well, what's going on, 560 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 1: what's the difference here? Um, And and I don't I mean, honestly, 561 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 1: I don't know the answer, but I mean, it's certainly 562 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: been an issue, to the point that there are now 563 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: women only subway cars and taxi services in places like 564 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: India and Japan in order to shield women from street harassment. 565 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 1: But I mean, something like that causes its own problems 566 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,760 Speaker 1: because Okay, great, you're in your woman only train car, 567 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: You're you're not gonna get groped, you're not gonna get harassed. 568 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: But suddenly, um, that separates the sexes completely. So a 569 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: man who would be harassing someone when he does see 570 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: a woman, it's an even rare occurrence, and he's even 571 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: more likely to harass. Yeah, I mean, it's it's definitely 572 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: been a huge problem in Indian there's a lot of 573 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: grassroots activism going on there to tackle it, as well 574 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: as just the issue of sexual harassment more generally speaking. UM, 575 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: I thought it was really interesting that in two thousand eleven, 576 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 1: Bangladesh officially did away with the eve teasing euphemism cat 577 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: calling um was known by probably still is euphemistically known 578 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 1: as eve teasing, or I should say street harassments euphemistically 579 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: known as eve teasing, and uh, the courts did away 580 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,439 Speaker 1: with that in Bangladesh to categorize it as a form 581 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 1: of sexual harassment. And also in Nepal there was a 582 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: law pass allowing police to immediately arrest someone suspected of 583 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: street harassment without a warrant. So clearly this is I mean, 584 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: it's not just something going on in American streets. This 585 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: is a global conversation that's happening. Um. And there are 586 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: questions too in the US about laws regarding public harassment, 587 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:29,240 Speaker 1: because the thing about street harassment is that the kinds 588 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: of horror, horrifying and sexually forward things that are yelled 589 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: at women. If you say that in a public space, 590 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: if you say that at a workplace or a school, 591 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: they're already laws in place to protect people against that, 592 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,359 Speaker 1: but not so on the streets. Yeah, and so this 593 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 1: gets into the issue of what's called fighting words. Legally, 594 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 1: and in our country, we have protections against fighting words, 595 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 1: things like yelling fire in a theater or saying something 596 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 1: to another human being that create an unsafe situation. They 597 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:07,280 Speaker 1: actually got their start as a way to essentially prevent 598 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: guys from challenging each other to duels and then killing 599 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: each other over an argument. And so while that legally 600 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 1: has trickled down through the years, no such protection exists 601 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: to women or men when it comes to street harassment 602 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: and the language used when people do harass people on 603 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: the street. Yeah. I mean I have a feeling that 604 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: that's probably never going to happen, that the fighting word 605 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: its action will be amended to that, but it definitely 606 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 1: changes the way I thought about how it operates in 607 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: a public space. Um. But the thing about it is, Caroline, 608 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: there are plenty of people who aren't men who also say, 609 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this is not harassment. It's still a compliment. 610 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: And before we close out the podcast, we do need 611 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 1: to address that. Um, there was a woman or is 612 00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: a woman. She's not dead. Derrie Lawick, who kind of 613 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: became the poster gal of pro cat callers when she 614 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: wrote an op ed in the New York Posts that 615 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: went viral for kind of all the wrong reasons because 616 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: it was headlined, Hey, ladies, cat calls are flattering, deal 617 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 1: with it, and I'm not going to waste my breath 618 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,280 Speaker 1: going over um all of her reasons why she enjoyed 619 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 1: being cat called. Um. But there was a study we 620 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 1: found from the journal Sexuality and Culture from two thousand 621 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:34,720 Speaker 1: and ten looking closer at the context of cat calling 622 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 1: to dig into that question of well is it complimentary? 623 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:40,880 Speaker 1: Because you do find, like in pretty much anything you 624 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 1: read about it, there's always a subset of people saying, well, 625 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: I kinda like it. I gotta like hearing that I 626 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:51,799 Speaker 1: look good. Yeah, And there were, for instance, there were 627 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 1: a lot of comments under the video of the actors 628 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 1: who was walking through New York. There were a lot 629 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: of comments um, calling her a lot of dirty words 630 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 1: and saying it's women like this that are the reason 631 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,760 Speaker 1: that men are afraid to come talk to me and 632 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:09,840 Speaker 1: tell me I look nice. Like what's wrong with a 633 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: man uh coming in saying hello and giving me his 634 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: number whatever? And it's like, WHOA. These are different things, 635 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 1: but it is important to discuss context well. And also, Caroline, 636 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,839 Speaker 1: there's the risk of forgetting to smile some days if 637 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,359 Speaker 1: people don't tell you to. You know, I forget all 638 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 1: the time. It's not until I walk into work and 639 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: Kristin yells at me from across the room to smile 640 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:35,280 Speaker 1: that I even remember. Yeah, I'm just trying to compliment 641 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: you girl, I know. But yeah. So this this study 642 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 1: that Kristen is talking about found that lower contextual threat 643 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: levels do have a bearing on how women perceive the 644 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: cat calling, the harassment, the the eye contact, whatever it 645 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,799 Speaker 1: may be. Yeah, because there's this whole thing of harassment 646 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: is in the eye of the whole older in terms 647 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 1: to how um threatening it feels. And so this study 648 00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 1: conducted a lot of experiments and highlighted perception variables. In 649 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:18,319 Speaker 1: other words, the key things sort of influence that threat level, 650 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 1: and that includes age, marital status, sex attractiveness, familiarity status, 651 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 1: job status of the perpetrator, demographic sexual identity, and attitudes 652 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: toward women of the observer. So that's also looking at 653 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,880 Speaker 1: how we as outsiders perceived the people watching the video 654 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 1: of the woman walking through New York for ten hours, 655 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,719 Speaker 1: how we perceive that and whether that is or is 656 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 1: not harassment, And it really focused in on the attractiveness 657 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:50,280 Speaker 1: and age of the harasser, as well as being alone 658 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: or with friends, as the major context factors for how 659 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 1: fearful a woman was at the prospect of these different 660 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: street harassments and areas they were presented with. Because there 661 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,920 Speaker 1: is a sticky question of well, if he's young and hot, 662 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,360 Speaker 1: maybe maybe it's maybe it is more of a compliment 663 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 1: than harassment. Yeah, but I mean when you when you 664 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,920 Speaker 1: mix and match all of these perception variables, I mean, 665 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:19,279 Speaker 1: that has a lot to do with it. I don't 666 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,600 Speaker 1: care how hot the guy is, if he is, like physically, 667 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: if he's following me down the street yelling at me, 668 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,760 Speaker 1: I mean, that's still going to be a high threat 669 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 1: situation that I'm going to perceive. You know. Yes, there 670 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: are so many different variables to take into account. But 671 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: um and and I don't discount that a lot of 672 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 1: people will say, well, it's not as threatening if he's 673 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,279 Speaker 1: good looking, or if he's rich, or if he's driving 674 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: a Bentley or whatever, um as opposed to if he's 675 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,760 Speaker 1: a guy sitting sitting on a stoop outside of his apartment. 676 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: But there's still I don't know, there's just so many 677 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,520 Speaker 1: contextual threat things to take into account, because well that 678 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: was the thing too in all of these studies that 679 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: they conducted, even when sort of playing around with those 680 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:12,839 Speaker 1: different variables, it never found like nothing completely mitigated all 681 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,800 Speaker 1: the negative impacts on the recipient in terms of feelings 682 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:20,360 Speaker 1: of self objectification, feelings of safety. There was never a 683 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,920 Speaker 1: perfect scenario when it was like a guy saying something 684 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:30,879 Speaker 1: lude or threatening or inappropriate and the recipient was like, 685 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:34,800 Speaker 1: and I feel great, and I feel like a strong 686 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,279 Speaker 1: and powerful person walking through the streets. There is there's 687 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 1: no no way you slice and dice it. Does it 688 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: not have a negative outcome, even if it's a small one. Yeah, exactly. 689 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,720 Speaker 1: And also as I was reading all of this too 690 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 1: and thinking about the kinds of especially the more lewd 691 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,759 Speaker 1: things that are said on or even just the lewd 692 00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 1: implications that are made in very but mine statements, um, 693 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,799 Speaker 1: and even just in the looks, you can just be 694 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,799 Speaker 1: looked up and down and feel as violated as you 695 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: would if a guy propositioned you for sex right then 696 00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 1: and there. And I feel like it says also so 697 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 1: much about in many ways how sexually backward our society 698 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: is when this kind of sexual communication in a public 699 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:30,839 Speaker 1: space is often deemed complimentary and benign, whereas we still 700 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 1: can't get sexual consent in communication between two people in 701 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,920 Speaker 1: private spaces, like straightened out, Like why is that? I mean, 702 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,400 Speaker 1: there's so many there's so many layers. And also I 703 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,440 Speaker 1: feel like too, the whole thing of well, if he's attractive, 704 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,200 Speaker 1: then it's a compliment also leads to the question of well, 705 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,399 Speaker 1: why is being called hot by a stranger like the 706 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,319 Speaker 1: the best most validating thing for a woman, you know? 707 00:44:55,000 --> 00:45:00,839 Speaker 1: Like why is being called beautiful the the most coveted 708 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,719 Speaker 1: kind of compliment a woman can receive in our society too? 709 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,080 Speaker 1: There are lots of layers to this, so I mean, yeah, exactly. 710 00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:12,120 Speaker 1: And I think that the historical context of all this 711 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 1: is so important to take into account, especially if you 712 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: do argue that cat calling is totally benign because it's 713 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:28,720 Speaker 1: actually not well, because it's not about compliments. It's about power. 714 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,520 Speaker 1: It's all about power in the same way that rape 715 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,719 Speaker 1: is not about sex, it's about power. And and am 716 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 1: I saying that all men who tell women to smile 717 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,840 Speaker 1: are rapists? No? But it's still it is a fact 718 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,360 Speaker 1: of it's an issue of power. Yeah, because I have 719 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,080 Speaker 1: a hard time thinking that the men who yelled at 720 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,400 Speaker 1: me to smile, we're yelling at other men to smile. 721 00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,400 Speaker 1: I have a hard time believing that it was just like, gosh, 722 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 1: darn it, you guys, I just want the world to 723 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:58,879 Speaker 1: be a happier place at this train, but just see 724 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,080 Speaker 1: more smiles. Yeah, And and so I mean when you, 725 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,520 Speaker 1: when you look at that, look at things in the 726 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: context of that, I think that says a lot too. 727 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:13,279 Speaker 1: And so it's really important to not just have this 728 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:17,560 Speaker 1: conversation with adults and fellow people in the world who 729 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 1: get cat called and harassed on the streets in public 730 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:22,960 Speaker 1: against their will. I think it's important to talk to 731 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,560 Speaker 1: kids about these issues too, maybe not go into so 732 00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:31,920 Speaker 1: many gruesome details, perhaps, but to discuss issues of consent 733 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 1: and what is and is not appropriate. And we want 734 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: to acknowledge to before we close out that this is 735 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:43,160 Speaker 1: we're talking about a very slim minority of men who 736 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:47,120 Speaker 1: are doing this. But the reaction of that slim minority 737 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:52,240 Speaker 1: behavior to the you know, the majority's reaction to it 738 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:54,239 Speaker 1: says a lot. Yeah. But now we want to hear 739 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:56,800 Speaker 1: from our listeners because I have a feeling that lots 740 00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:58,600 Speaker 1: of people have lots of things to say, and we 741 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,760 Speaker 1: want to hear from every body on this because everybody 742 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:03,640 Speaker 1: has a stake in this, because at some point we 743 00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:08,880 Speaker 1: probably all exist in public spaces. So mom Stuff at 744 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,480 Speaker 1: house stuffworks dot Com is our email address. You can 745 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:15,200 Speaker 1: also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast and messages on Facebook, 746 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:17,239 Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of messages to share with you. 747 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 1: So I've got a letter here from someone who would 748 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:28,440 Speaker 1: like to remain anonymous about our episode on Lady Lawyers, 749 00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,520 Speaker 1: and she writes, as a practicing lawyer, I can tell 750 00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,880 Speaker 1: you that shaming does happen in court. Early in my career, 751 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,800 Speaker 1: I was at a federal court hearing with senior partners, 752 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:39,640 Speaker 1: and because I had forgotten to drop off my dry 753 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,040 Speaker 1: cleaning after work, I had to wear a royal blue 754 00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:47,120 Speaker 1: pinstripe skirt suit to court. I was the only person 755 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,520 Speaker 1: not wearing black or gray, while not a single one 756 00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,520 Speaker 1: of the male partners who I worked with ever made 757 00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:55,040 Speaker 1: a comment about it. At the end of the hearing, 758 00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:57,880 Speaker 1: a thirty five to forty five year old male Department 759 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,320 Speaker 1: of Justice attorney walked around to our two able to 760 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,960 Speaker 1: the opposite side where I was standing, came up, stood 761 00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 1: right behind me, leaned in and whispered nice suit. Needless 762 00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,480 Speaker 1: to say, I vowed that I would never again wear 763 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,399 Speaker 1: anything but black or gray to court. While I still 764 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,319 Speaker 1: wouldn't wear a royal blue suit to federal court. There 765 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,680 Speaker 1: is a lot of theater involved in going to court, 766 00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:21,719 Speaker 1: and part of the show is playing to your audience. 767 00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,640 Speaker 1: I have friends who single male colleagues put on wedding 768 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,160 Speaker 1: bands before trials because studies have shown that juries trust 769 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,640 Speaker 1: married men more than single men. Like Michael J. Fox's 770 00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:35,160 Speaker 1: character on The Good Wife, I think most lawyers would 771 00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:39,280 Speaker 1: gladly alter their appearance or exaggerate a disability to sway 772 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,600 Speaker 1: the jury or the judge in their client's favor. In 773 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:44,920 Speaker 1: response to your question about how big this problem is, 774 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,920 Speaker 1: it isn't a big problem because, unlike TV, most lawyers 775 00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,480 Speaker 1: and don't go to court so often. So thanks for 776 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,760 Speaker 1: that insight. So I have a letter here from Lauren 777 00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,920 Speaker 1: uh in response to our Lady Lawyer's dress code episode. 778 00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,640 Speaker 1: She might not agree with the author of that last letter, 779 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:06,480 Speaker 1: Christian in terms of staying true to just black and gray. 780 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,080 Speaker 1: She says, as a lady lawyer, I am very conscious 781 00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:11,279 Speaker 1: of what I wear at the court. I'm a Midwestern, 782 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,080 Speaker 1: middle class raised gal, but at thirty five, I became 783 00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,920 Speaker 1: a named partner in a Boston law firm through sheer, 784 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,319 Speaker 1: hard work and a few smarts. As unfortunate as it is, 785 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:22,239 Speaker 1: women in the courtroom do need to think about what 786 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,440 Speaker 1: they wear and how they wear it, much more than 787 00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:28,239 Speaker 1: our male counterparts. However, this does not mean that women 788 00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,719 Speaker 1: should shirk their individuality. Wear a skirt suit that hits 789 00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,160 Speaker 1: just below the knee and a modest button up shirt, 790 00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,600 Speaker 1: but make the suit red. I've found that so long 791 00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,200 Speaker 1: as the length and neckline are appropriate and what comes 792 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,319 Speaker 1: from your mouth is intelligent, judges and fellow lawyers will 793 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:46,360 Speaker 1: respect you. I never wear black suits and I always 794 00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,960 Speaker 1: wear stiletto heels. Ask anyone in my court house and 795 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,120 Speaker 1: they will tell you I am a force to be reckoned. 796 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,879 Speaker 1: With lots of love to you, ladies, and if any 797 00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:58,480 Speaker 1: lady lawyer or hopeful lady lawyers in the Boston area, 798 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:00,480 Speaker 1: I would love to help her six eed in any 799 00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,200 Speaker 1: way I can. So thank you, Lauren, and thanks to 800 00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:05,960 Speaker 1: everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff at how stuff 801 00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:08,680 Speaker 1: works dot com is our email address, and for links 802 00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:10,319 Speaker 1: to all of our social media as well as all 803 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,600 Speaker 1: of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this one with 804 00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,840 Speaker 1: links to our sources so you can read all about 805 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:20,400 Speaker 1: the history of smashing the mashers. Head on over to 806 00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:27,759 Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more on 807 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,280 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff 808 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:37,880 Speaker 1: Works dot com.