WEBVTT - #42 Mark 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:06.240 Hello, Stevie Lane. 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:07.280 Hi Jonathan. 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:10.799 So you you've been a producer at the show how 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:15.080 long now? For four and a half years, and how 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:18.920 many times have you watched me strut into the studio, 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:21.799 grab hold of the microphone and thought to yourself, I 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:22.319 could do that. 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:25.079 Today is your day for all of that. 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:31.640 I am asking you to take over forever for an episode. 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:34.080 I have for you a Stevie Lane exclusive. 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:35.080 Okay. 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:38.159 It takes place in the art world, and you are 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:41.800 an artist. I make jewelry, You make ear rings. I 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:43.440 do you make regular rings? 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:44.960 I make regular rings. 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:46.200 Have you ever made a toe ring? 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:49.440 I've never made a toe ring. 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:52.120 How about a toe ring connected to a chain that 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:53.880 runs to the belly button? 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:54.120 Ring? 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:57.120 That seems that seems dangerous. 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:00.640 I hope that this has nothing to do with the 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:01.800 story you've brought me to. 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:04.520 No, No, But it's about art. It's about art. 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:07.119 Do I get to do I get to introduce the show? 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:13.280 Absolutely hit me from Gimblet Media. I'm Stevie Lane and 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:16.199 this is heavyweight. That was great. 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.920 Just maybe like a little more energy, a little brighter, 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:23.840 like you're baptizing as ship, like you're calling bingo numbers, 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:26.000 project your voice all the way to the back of 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:28.280 the room. 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:28.760 From Gimblet Media. 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:35.880 There, I'm Stevie Lane. And from Gimblet Media, I'm Stevie Lane. 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:48.360 And this is Heavyweight Today's episode Mark right after the break. 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:57.200 Whoop here, I'm here. 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:02.280 This is Mark and is Michigan, where he lives and 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:05.600 works as an artist. His studio is littered with spools 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:08.480 of wire and buckets of paint and huge paper mache 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:13.520 heads because Mark makes giant puppets. How are you doing today? 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:16.440 Better than that sharp stick in the eye. 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.120 Mark is a lot like a puppet. He's goofy and 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:25.800 enjoys joking around. He even sounds like a puppet. But 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.959 before Mark started making puppets, his dream was to be 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.000 a famous painter. It's a dream he missed out on 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:37.760 by only an inch, literally one inch. Mark's story begins 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:41.519 forty years ago. He was in college studying fine art. 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:45.040 And part of the program was that you got to 0:02:45.360 --> 0:02:48.840 go to New York City and apprentice with an artist, 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:51.400 and this was supposed to be a kind of launching 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:52.480 point for your career. 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:56.360 This would be Mark's chance to work alongside a real artist, 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:00.720 someone who would help him make connections and eventually discovered. 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.120 So the fall of his senior year, Mark set off 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:09.080 to New York City in pursuit of his dream. 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:14.000 This was nineteen eighty one and New York was just 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:17.600 almost a caricature of itself. It was like, you know, 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:21.280 I got there during a garbage strike, so when I arrived, 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:25.239 the streets were literally filled with piles of garbage ten 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:28.680 twelve fifteen feet high. Right. I remember my first day. 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:30.760 I got there and I put all my clothes in 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:33.239 the wash machine of this you know, flea bag hotel 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:35.280 they put us up in, and I went down to 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:37.600 get my clothes and they were all stolen. Right, So 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:40.280 I guess I'll be wearing these clothes I have on 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:44.800 for eternity. 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:47.880 So it wasn't these clothes that Mark showed up for 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:50.920 the first day of his apprenticeship with an artist named 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:54.360 Joe Zucker, whose art today can be found in the 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:59.080 collections at MoMA, the met and the Smithsonian. Joe's studio 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:02.000 was in a Tribeca lat where he lived with his girlfriend. 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:05.800 When I first showed up to Joe's studio, I brought 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:08.720 my portfolio with me. You know, I don't know what 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:10.760 I thought they were gonna do, Like Oh my god, 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.320 your art's so great. Here takeover for Joe. 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.960 You know, like Joe did not ask Mark to take 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.719 over for him. He didn't seem very impressed by Mark's 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.080 portfolio or by Mark. 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:24.279 From the get go. I just didn't get off on 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:26.440 a very good foot, you know, like if you go 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:29.919 into a room and you can just tell like someone's 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:32.279 told a story and it's not in your favor. 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:36.960 Had they had apprentices before or were you there first? 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:37.160 Yes? 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:39.920 Oh yeah, they made that clear. They had somebody right 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:43.200 before me who was great, you know, Richard, He was 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:45.440 the best. I can never live up to. Whoever this 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:48.960 mythical person was. So it was intimidating. 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:54.400 But most intimidating of all was Joe's girlfriend, Britta Levey 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:57.960 Britta LaVey, as glamorous as her name. 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:03.120 My sense was that her job was to be a 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:07.279 firewall between anybody else and Joe and his work. You know, 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:13.200 she was kind of a gatekeeper, and honestly, I don't 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:15.440 you know, I don't think she liked me. 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:22.960 At the time Mark showed up on his doorstep, Joe 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:25.320 Zucker had been hard at work for months on a 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:29.040 series of fifteen six by six foot paintings about boxing, 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:32.599 each representing a round in a match, and the fifteen 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.320 completed works were to be displayed in a solo show 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:39.440 at the Holly Solomon Gallery. The self proclaimed princess of 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:42.760 pop art, Holly Solomon launched the careers of artists like 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.040 Robert Maplethorpe and was famously the subject of an iconic 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:49.320 portrait by Andy Warhol. She was a taste maker in 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:51.880 the New York art world and had recently set her 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:53.680 sights on Joe. 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:56.760 So this was a big deal. These one person shows 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.880 could make or break you. You get plenty after that 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.360 at or could be the end of your career. 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:06.200 Joe tasked Mark with building the wooden frames that would 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:07.440 go around the paintings. 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:11.840 It was labor intensive, but completely brainless. You know, he 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:13.680 is needed something to keep me occupied. 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:17.200 A few weeks into Mark's apprenticeship, it came time for 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.400 the show at Holly Solomon's. Joe and Britta were moving 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.120 the paintings to the gallery and Mark came to help 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:24.200 pack them into the truck. 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:28.159 But when I arrived that day, there was tension in 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:31.159 the air. I could tell something wasn't right. And it 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:34.920 turns out that the paintings are too big to fit 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:42.880 down the freight elevator. You know, it's sort of like 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:45.440 we built this boat in a basement, right and then 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.719 tried to get it out, and nowhere along the way 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:51.599 did someone go, hey, you know what, that elevators about 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:54.800 the same size as these paintings. Maybe we should check 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:56.000 this out make sure they fit. 0:06:56.560 --> 0:06:57.520 How close was it? 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:01.000 My guess is they did fit before or the frames 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:01.479 were put on. 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:05.640 That is, those frames that Mark had built. They were 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:09.600 one inch thick, and they made the paintings one inch 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:15.720 two wide. The paintings were also too big for the stairwell, 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:18.880 so Mark says Joe and Britta were frantic trying to 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:20.920 figure out another way to get them down from the 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:25.400 fifth floor. They had a number of increasingly outlandish ideas, 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:28.440 like removing a window and getting a crane to lift 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:31.040 them out, or busting a hole in the side of 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:32.560 the building with a wrecking ball. 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:35.680 It was hair brained. I mean, let's just be honest here. 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:38.520 That was not a good idea. But the next idea 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:40.720 wasn't so great either, and it was my idea. 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:44.960 It turns out, while Joe and Britta argued, Mark went 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:47.920 over to the elevator. It was an old elevator, the 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:51.600 kind with caged accordion doors who had to manually shut it. 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:55.040 Didn't even have buttons, just two ropes, one for up 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:58.800 and one for down. Mark opened the cage doors and 0:07:58.880 --> 0:07:59.800 pasted out. 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.720 And I was like, wait a second, he's painting so fit. 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:05.360 We can't put all fifteen in it once, but we 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:07.280 could take him one at a time. We just got 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:10.560 to put him in on a diagonal and they stuck 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:13.680 out a little bit right, so you couldn't close the 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:17.040 accordion doors. But I saw that there were some latches 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:19.880 where if we pushed those latches it would fool the 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:21.840 elevator into thinking the doors were closed. 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:25.800 Mark laid out his plan, and to a surprise, Joe 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.360 agreed to give it a go. And how did you feel, 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:30.280 I mean, were you sort of like I was. 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:33.720 Totally triumphant, but a great idea. I saved the day. 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:35.880 Yeah, I mean they were about to smash a hole 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:39.319 in this building. So Mark and Joe brought the first 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:42.319 painting into the elevator. Mark stood on one side of 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:45.640 the painting, Joe on the other. They couldn't see each 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.800 other over the top. Joe and Mark each held the 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:52.560 caged accordion doors open to accommodate the slightly too large frame. 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:55.439 Then Mark reached for the rope. 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:59.079 And we sharked to go down, and we're going down 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.839 a couple of floor and I'm like, oh, this is 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:02.440 gonna be great. 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:06.760 For the first time since starting his apprenticeship, Mark felt useful. 0:09:07.360 --> 0:09:10.000 And then and then. 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:13.360 On one of the floors, the landing stuck out just 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:16.200 a little further than the rest of the landings did, 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:20.400 and as we went down, it caught a hold of 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:24.199 the corner of this painting that was sticking out about 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:34.480 an inch right that inch, and then the elevator just 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.480 kept going and it just crushed this painting. 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:38.880 Oh my god. 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:42.760 Because the painting was like a wall in front of him, 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:46.160 Mark couldn't see anything. So most of what he remembers 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.560 about the next few moments are the sounds, the sound 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:53.480 of canvas ripping, the sound of wood splintering and cracking 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:54.800 like breaking bones. 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:57.959 But the sound I heard next, like, I didn't hear 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.400 anything on the other side of the painting for little bit, 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:05.560 and then I heard weeping. You know, I heard crying 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:15.440 on the other side, and I didn't expect that, And 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:17.680 I didn't know what to do about that. You know, 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:31.680 it was just sort of like it just it was horrible. Britta, 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:35.640 who was up three floors, was yelling through the doors 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:37.080 down into the elevator shaft. 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:41.400 What happened? What happened? What's going on down there? 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.200 And Joe's like, come on, come on, we gotta go 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:48.480 back up. We gotta go back up now. Of course 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.800 you know where this story is going, right. I got 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:55.200 the two ropes there, and all of a sudden I 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:59.000 get this like dyslexia. I know one is for up 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:01.640 an the other one is down, but I, for the 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:07.880 life of me, I'm like, I'm paralyzed, And so I 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:11.800 pull one of the ropes and it's the wrong one. 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:16.400 And if the painting wasn't crushed before, well, when we 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:22.320 dropped down another six feet, this thing was mangled. What 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:25.280 had once been a six foot painting was now crushed 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:27.679 to about two feet tall. Oh my god, it was 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:31.640 irreparable practically. At that point, it was just, you know, 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:34.040 it was just, yeah, that wasn't good. 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:39.160 That was bad. When Mark finally got ahold of the 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.000 right rope, he and Joe rode the elevator back up 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:45.440 to Brita and removed the mangled painting. Joe and Britta 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:46.079 were fuming. 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:50.360 They said, you know, you might as well go home. 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:53.720 Joe and Britta told Mark they would call. So Mark 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:57.160 returned to the Fleabag Hotel, tail between his legs and 0:11:57.240 --> 0:11:59.679 spent the next few days in his room, waiting by 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:04.120 the phone, willing Joe and Britta to reach out. But 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:04.880 they never did. 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:10.040 They just you know who could blame them, And that's 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:12.160 the last I ever saw of them. 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:16.000 For Mark, the elevator didn't just crush a painting, It 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:19.240 crushed his dream. His plan had always been to move 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.280 to New York after graduation and become a painter whose 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:26.440 work would hang in galleries or museums, basically to follow 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:31.080 in Joe's footsteps. But because of the elevator incident, Mark 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:34.000 never went back to New York. And so here is 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:35.720 the question that he's left with. 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.360 If I had not crushed a painting in the elevator, 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.439 would I be living in New York now somehow having 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.599 followed that trajectory of the life of an artist in 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:50.920 New York City? Yeah, I don't know. 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:55.640 Why have you been thinking about this again? 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:56.080 Now? 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:02.440 Okay? So I saw this thing called the Miniature Puppet 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:06.040 Theater Workshop, I think it was called, and so I 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:06.920 signed up for it. 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:11.640 The class assignment for this Miniature Puppet Theater Workshop was 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:13.960 to make a puppet show based on an event from 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:16.520 your life, and the first thing that popped into Mark's 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:21.520 head was the elevator incident, which isn't that surprising. Mark 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:23.880 has told the story a lot over the years to 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:27.199 family and friends to make them laugh, but it's only 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:29.760 in working on his puppet show this last year that 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:33.280 he's begun to think about it differently. There were two 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:39.000 people in the elevator that day, Smasher and Smashy. Mark 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:41.480 is making a Mark puppet, but he also has to 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.440 make a Joe puppet, and the Joe puppet has to 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:48.120 have something to say. And that's where Mark is stuck. 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:51.120 He's struggling with writing the Joe puppets lines. 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:55.640 I feel like half of this is missing without knowing 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:58.920 Joe's perspective. It's like I'm going back to the scene 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:02.359 of the crime, and I need the witnesses, the other witnesses. 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:05.839 Otherwise I'm just I'm just rehearsing the same old lines 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:08.040 in my head I've had for forty years. 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:12.319 What about Joe? What about the show at Holly Solomon's. 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:15.480 The last time Mark saw Joe, he was weeping in 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:16.239 an elevator. 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:18.800 I wasn't thinking this at the time. I was thinking 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:22.920 only about myself. But now, years later, I hope, you know, 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:28.000 I hope that me crushing his painting didn't derail him 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:37.760 in any way. I could just track him down, get 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.880 his phone number, call him up right, But a little 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:41.840 bit of me scared. 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:46.200 Mark doesn't think Joe and Britta have necessarily softened in 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:50.920 the intervening years. Case in point, Mark read in Hampton's 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:54.360 Cottages and Gardens magazine about the dream house Joe and 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:56.360 Britta built after moving out of the city. 0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:59.440 It contained no guest room. 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:03.880 In the magazine, Britta is quoted as saying, guests are 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:07.760 completely out of the question. It makes it easier, so 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.080 they're not like the warmest. If we take their house 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:11.280 as a metaphor. 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.640 For who builds a house without a guest room. If 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:15.760 you're building it and designing, you I mean. 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:21.880 Someone who doesn't want any disturbances, which is exactly what 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:23.040 Mark wants me to be. 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:25.560 It's all in your hands now. 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:28.280 Yeah, you know, I'm not used to being the puppet master. 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:32.400 Just we'm going to pull the right strings exactly. 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:35.280 I'm gonna label them up and down. I'll tell you 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:39.920 that much. After the break, I roll down my sleeves 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:43.800 and get up to business. No wait wait, I roll 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:47.560 up my sleeves and get down and get down to business. Right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry. 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:50.440 I roll up my sleeves and get down to the business. 0:15:50.480 --> 0:16:01.160 After the beating page, I've never fun owned a famous artist, 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:03.840 and on the whole they strike me as a pretty 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:09.080 scary bunch, cutting off their ears, collecting mommafied feet, living 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:12.760 in addicts, and murdering people on tennis courts. So to 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:16.000 calm my nerves, I remind myself why artists make art 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:19.520 in the first place. They're sympathetic to the human condition, 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.440 I say aloud as I pick up the phone. They're 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:26.080 sensitive to the struggles of their fellow man. I take 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:28.120 a deep breath and dial. 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:32.200 Hell. 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:36.720 Already, I feel like the call is going poorly. Hi there, 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:39.960 I'm calling for a mister Joe Zucker. Is this the 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:40.640 right number? 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:42.480 Yeah? 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:43.680 Oh, hi, mister Zucker. 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:46.000 Why are your call? 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:51.200 It's a good question, I guess to ask a famous 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:54.560 artist to be on my internet radio show to talk 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.440 to an apprentice who mashed his painting in an elevator 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:00.720 and is now immortalizing the incident in a puppet show. 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:04.760 My name is Stevie Lane, and I actually wrote you 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:07.560 in a voice that sounds like a small dog rolling 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:11.720 onto its back and exposing it's vulnerable underbelly. I explained 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:14.680 to Joe who I am and why I'm calling. I 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:16.760 am a producer of a podcast. 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:21.640 I'm not. Don't do things like that. I've got enough problems. 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:27.920 Okay, I just want to make sure this you do. 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:32.200 You remember you did have apprentices forty years ago when 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:36.320 you were Yes, okay, so this is with regards to 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:39.080 one of your old apprentices who who wanted to get 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:40.000 back in touch with you? 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:41.320 Oh? 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:42.720 Is that one of. 0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:45.200 His name is Mark. 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:48.800 I don't want to. 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:53.600 Deal with him. These sounds are the person that I 0:17:54.400 --> 0:18:01.520 had a problem. 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:03.679 Talking to Joe. I learned that he and Britta had 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:07.240 a number of apprentices, the majority of whom Joe says 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:10.520 were great. In fact, he and Britta are still in 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:13.520 touch with one I assume Richard to this day. 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:19.240 But one of them and sounds like Jim loved to 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:31.760 jerk talk to my wife about us. She handles all 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:38.080 of the things that I do TV interviews, right shows. 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:39.680 I just do the work. 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:41.680 So if you call her. 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:51.360 Okay, yeah, hi, hi, Hi, suddenly out of nowhere, Britta Levy, Hi, Hi, 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:52.359 is this miss LaVey? 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:53.800 Yeah? 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:54.800 And you are. 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:02.840 An absolute nobody. I feel like saying Britta is Kurt. 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:05.480 She sounds like someone who has better things to do, 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:08.320 like dog nap one hundred and one Dolmatians for a 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.680 fur coat. But I finally muster the courage to tell 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:15.160 her about Mark, though not quite enough courage to get 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:18.440 into the details of the elevator incident. I keep things 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:23.359 pretty vague. He would like to reconnect with mister Zucker 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:28.359 to sort of like understand, and before I know it, 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:33.800 this pops out to apologize for the way things went. Huh. 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:38.879 Although Mark hadn't explicitly charged me with promising an apology 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:43.280 per se, he did say he wanted Joe's perspective that 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:45.960 he felt bad about how things ended. It's not that 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:50.080 big a leap anyway. I got flustered at the mention 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:53.760 of a carte blanche apology, though brittish tone shifts. 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:57.840 Yeah, well, if that's how he feels, you know, one 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:02.280 certainly wouldn't all object to that. I'm sure we can 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:03.119 figure this out. 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:08.520 Forty years later, Britta is still Joe's gatekeeper, and just 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:10.760 like that, the gate swings open. 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:18.920 Hello. 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:21.640 Hello, that's a journal. 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:24.960 You're right back yet you got me there. I was 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:27.160 like talking to you as though you were there. Hey, 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:28.800 it's Stevie. I just want to let you know that. 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:30.640 We're on Hi. 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:32.920 What does Stevie want to talk about now? 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:36.720 Stevie wants to talk about the upcoming conversation with Joe 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:40.440 and Britta and the apology I promised I outlined from 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:43.760 Mark the terms of our parlay. I ease into it. 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:45.359 I mean, I hope it doesn't. I hope it's not 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:46.640 what you don't want to say. I mean, I think 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:49.280 my impression from like the last time we spoke was 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:53.720 that it in part it is. But I think, and 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.320 I'm not saying this, I mean, you know, I understand 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:58.600 like accidents happen and stuff, and you know I'm on 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:02.880 your side. But I think in terms of like sort 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:07.240 of like setting this late clean for the conversation, my 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:12.240 impression is that a sort of like an apology would 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.240 be something that they would, you know, I think that 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:16.400 would just be a nice thing. 0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:19.560 Sure, I mean, and I can see. 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:24.720 That Mark is happy to apologize, but having to apologize 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:28.360 it makes him realize that Britta and Joe still harbor resentment, 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:30.399 which makes him nervous. 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:33.720 I'm getting that feeling in my stomach like I used 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:36.040 to get. You know, what was it not? Trepidation? 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:37.720 Dread? 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:41.760 Dread? I have a little dread here. 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:49.280 I mean, you know, if you feel like you can't 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:51.240 do this, then we should have that conversation. 0:21:55.440 --> 0:22:00.200 Do you have friends, Is this is what you do to them? 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:01.240 No? 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:01.879 I have. 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:06.640 I have crushed paintings before my life. I can do this. Yeah, 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:07.760 we're gonna crush this. 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:17.119 We're gonna Scheduling for Joe goes through Britta, and in 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:19.359 the coming days, I'm on the phone with her frequently, 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:23.360 more frequently than anyone else in my life. I sort 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:28.560 of feel like Britta Leave is my new best friend. Hello, Hi, Britta, 0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:29.240 how are you? 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:31.360 Oh Stevie, how are you? 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:36.000 I'm fine. Britta's working on a documentary about Joe, a 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:40.280 book of Joe's work, organizing Joe's archives. Never once when 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:42.879 I call is she just sitting at home relaxing. 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:46.399 I'm driving around and everybody's going off to the beach, 0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:47.120 and I thought. 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:48.000 What the fuck about me? 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:50.639 Where am I going to the beach? 0:22:50.880 --> 0:22:51.119 You know? 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:55.000 But as busy as she is, she always picks up 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:58.959