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Speaker 1: Hello, Stevie Lane.

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Speaker 2: Hi Jonathan.

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Speaker 3: So you you've been a producer at the show how

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Speaker 3: long now? For four and a half years, and how

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Speaker 3: many times have you watched me strut into the studio,

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Speaker 3: grab hold of the microphone and thought to yourself, I

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Speaker 3: could do that.

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Speaker 2: Today is your day for all of that.

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Speaker 3: I am asking you to take over forever for an episode.

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Speaker 3: I have for you a Stevie Lane exclusive.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 3: It takes place in the art world, and you are

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Speaker 3: an artist. I make jewelry, You make ear rings. I

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Speaker 3: do you make regular rings?

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Speaker 1: I make regular rings.

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Speaker 3: Have you ever made a toe ring?

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Speaker 1: I've never made a toe ring.

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Speaker 3: How about a toe ring connected to a chain that

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Speaker 3: runs to the belly button?

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Speaker 4: Ring?

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Speaker 1: That seems that seems dangerous.

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Speaker 2: I hope that this has nothing to do with the

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Speaker 2: story you've brought me to.

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Speaker 3: No, No, But it's about art. It's about art.

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Speaker 1: Do I get to do I get to introduce the show?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely hit me from Gimblet Media. I'm Stevie Lane and

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Speaker 1: this is heavyweight. That was great.

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Speaker 3: Just maybe like a little more energy, a little brighter,

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Speaker 3: like you're baptizing as ship, like you're calling bingo numbers,

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Speaker 3: project your voice all the way to the back of

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Speaker 3: the room.

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Speaker 1: From Gimblet Media.

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Speaker 2: There, I'm Stevie Lane. And from Gimblet Media, I'm Stevie Lane.

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Speaker 2: And this is Heavyweight Today's episode Mark right after the break.

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Speaker 5: Whoop here, I'm here.

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Speaker 2: This is Mark and is Michigan, where he lives and

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Speaker 2: works as an artist. His studio is littered with spools

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Speaker 2: of wire and buckets of paint and huge paper mache

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Speaker 2: heads because Mark makes giant puppets. How are you doing today?

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Speaker 5: Better than that sharp stick in the eye.

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Speaker 2: Mark is a lot like a puppet. He's goofy and

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Speaker 2: enjoys joking around. He even sounds like a puppet. But

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Speaker 2: before Mark started making puppets, his dream was to be

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Speaker 2: a famous painter. It's a dream he missed out on

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Speaker 2: by only an inch, literally one inch. Mark's story begins

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Speaker 2: forty years ago. He was in college studying fine art.

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Speaker 5: And part of the program was that you got to

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Speaker 5: go to New York City and apprentice with an artist,

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Speaker 5: and this was supposed to be a kind of launching

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Speaker 5: point for your career.

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Speaker 2: This would be Mark's chance to work alongside a real artist,

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Speaker 2: someone who would help him make connections and eventually discovered.

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Speaker 2: So the fall of his senior year, Mark set off

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Speaker 2: to New York City in pursuit of his dream.

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Speaker 5: This was nineteen eighty one and New York was just

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Speaker 5: almost a caricature of itself. It was like, you know,

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Speaker 5: I got there during a garbage strike, so when I arrived,

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Speaker 5: the streets were literally filled with piles of garbage ten

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Speaker 5: twelve fifteen feet high. Right. I remember my first day.

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Speaker 5: I got there and I put all my clothes in

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Speaker 5: the wash machine of this you know, flea bag hotel

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Speaker 5: they put us up in, and I went down to

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Speaker 5: get my clothes and they were all stolen. Right, So

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Speaker 5: I guess I'll be wearing these clothes I have on

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Speaker 5: for eternity.

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Speaker 2: So it wasn't these clothes that Mark showed up for

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Speaker 2: the first day of his apprenticeship with an artist named

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Speaker 2: Joe Zucker, whose art today can be found in the

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Speaker 2: collections at MoMA, the met and the Smithsonian. Joe's studio

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Speaker 2: was in a Tribeca lat where he lived with his girlfriend.

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Speaker 5: When I first showed up to Joe's studio, I brought

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Speaker 5: my portfolio with me. You know, I don't know what

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Speaker 5: I thought they were gonna do, Like Oh my god,

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Speaker 5: your art's so great. Here takeover for Joe.

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Speaker 2: You know, like Joe did not ask Mark to take

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Speaker 2: over for him. He didn't seem very impressed by Mark's

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Speaker 2: portfolio or by Mark.

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Speaker 5: From the get go. I just didn't get off on

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Speaker 5: a very good foot, you know, like if you go

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Speaker 5: into a room and you can just tell like someone's

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Speaker 5: told a story and it's not in your favor.

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Speaker 2: Had they had apprentices before or were you there first?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, they made that clear. They had somebody right

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Speaker 5: before me who was great, you know, Richard, He was

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Speaker 5: the best. I can never live up to. Whoever this

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Speaker 5: mythical person was. So it was intimidating.

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Speaker 2: But most intimidating of all was Joe's girlfriend, Britta Levey

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Speaker 2: Britta LaVey, as glamorous as her name.

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Speaker 5: My sense was that her job was to be a

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Speaker 5: firewall between anybody else and Joe and his work. You know,

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Speaker 5: she was kind of a gatekeeper, and honestly, I don't

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Speaker 5: you know, I don't think she liked me.

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Speaker 2: At the time Mark showed up on his doorstep, Joe

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Speaker 2: Zucker had been hard at work for months on a

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Speaker 2: series of fifteen six by six foot paintings about boxing,

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Speaker 2: each representing a round in a match, and the fifteen

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Speaker 2: completed works were to be displayed in a solo show

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Speaker 2: at the Holly Solomon Gallery. The self proclaimed princess of

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Speaker 2: pop art, Holly Solomon launched the careers of artists like

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Speaker 2: Robert Maplethorpe and was famously the subject of an iconic

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Speaker 2: portrait by Andy Warhol. She was a taste maker in

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Speaker 2: the New York art world and had recently set her

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Speaker 2: sights on Joe.

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Speaker 5: So this was a big deal. These one person shows

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Speaker 5: could make or break you. You get plenty after that

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Speaker 5: at or could be the end of your career.

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Speaker 2: Joe tasked Mark with building the wooden frames that would

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Speaker 2: go around the paintings.

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Speaker 5: It was labor intensive, but completely brainless. You know, he

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Speaker 5: is needed something to keep me occupied.

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Speaker 2: A few weeks into Mark's apprenticeship, it came time for

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Speaker 2: the show at Holly Solomon's. Joe and Britta were moving

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Speaker 2: the paintings to the gallery and Mark came to help

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Speaker 2: pack them into the truck.

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Speaker 5: But when I arrived that day, there was tension in

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Speaker 5: the air. I could tell something wasn't right. And it

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Speaker 5: turns out that the paintings are too big to fit

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Speaker 5: down the freight elevator. You know, it's sort of like

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Speaker 5: we built this boat in a basement, right and then

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Speaker 5: tried to get it out, and nowhere along the way

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Speaker 5: did someone go, hey, you know what, that elevators about

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Speaker 5: the same size as these paintings. Maybe we should check

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Speaker 5: this out make sure they fit.

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Speaker 2: How close was it?

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Speaker 5: My guess is they did fit before or the frames

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Speaker 5: were put on.

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Speaker 2: That is, those frames that Mark had built. They were

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Speaker 2: one inch thick, and they made the paintings one inch

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Speaker 2: two wide. The paintings were also too big for the stairwell,

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Speaker 2: so Mark says Joe and Britta were frantic trying to

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Speaker 2: figure out another way to get them down from the

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Speaker 2: fifth floor. They had a number of increasingly outlandish ideas,

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Speaker 2: like removing a window and getting a crane to lift

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Speaker 2: them out, or busting a hole in the side of

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Speaker 2: the building with a wrecking ball.

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Speaker 5: It was hair brained. I mean, let's just be honest here.

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Speaker 5: That was not a good idea. But the next idea

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Speaker 5: wasn't so great either, and it was my idea.

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Speaker 2: It turns out, while Joe and Britta argued, Mark went

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Speaker 2: over to the elevator. It was an old elevator, the

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Speaker 2: kind with caged accordion doors who had to manually shut it.

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Speaker 2: Didn't even have buttons, just two ropes, one for up

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Speaker 2: and one for down. Mark opened the cage doors and

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Speaker 2: pasted out.

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Speaker 5: And I was like, wait a second, he's painting so fit.

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Speaker 5: We can't put all fifteen in it once, but we

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Speaker 5: could take him one at a time. We just got

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Speaker 5: to put him in on a diagonal and they stuck

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Speaker 5: out a little bit right, so you couldn't close the

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Speaker 5: accordion doors. But I saw that there were some latches

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Speaker 5: where if we pushed those latches it would fool the

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Speaker 5: elevator into thinking the doors were closed.

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Speaker 2: Mark laid out his plan, and to a surprise, Joe

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Speaker 2: agreed to give it a go. And how did you feel,

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Speaker 2: I mean, were you sort of like I was.

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Speaker 5: Totally triumphant, but a great idea. I saved the day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they were about to smash a hole

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Speaker 2: in this building. So Mark and Joe brought the first

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Speaker 2: painting into the elevator. Mark stood on one side of

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Speaker 2: the painting, Joe on the other. They couldn't see each

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Speaker 2: other over the top. Joe and Mark each held the

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Speaker 2: caged accordion doors open to accommodate the slightly too large frame.

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Speaker 2: Then Mark reached for the rope.

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Speaker 5: And we sharked to go down, and we're going down

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Speaker 5: a couple of floor and I'm like, oh, this is

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Speaker 5: gonna be great.

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Speaker 2: For the first time since starting his apprenticeship, Mark felt useful.

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Speaker 2: And then and then.

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Speaker 5: On one of the floors, the landing stuck out just

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Speaker 5: a little further than the rest of the landings did,

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Speaker 5: and as we went down, it caught a hold of

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Speaker 5: the corner of this painting that was sticking out about

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Speaker 5: an inch right that inch, and then the elevator just

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Speaker 5: kept going and it just crushed this painting.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: Because the painting was like a wall in front of him,

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Speaker 2: Mark couldn't see anything. So most of what he remembers

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Speaker 2: about the next few moments are the sounds, the sound

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Speaker 2: of canvas ripping, the sound of wood splintering and cracking

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Speaker 2: like breaking bones.

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Speaker 5: But the sound I heard next, like, I didn't hear

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Speaker 5: anything on the other side of the painting for little bit,

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Speaker 5: and then I heard weeping. You know, I heard crying

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Speaker 5: on the other side, and I didn't expect that, And

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Speaker 5: I didn't know what to do about that. You know,

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Speaker 5: it was just sort of like it just it was horrible. Britta,

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Speaker 5: who was up three floors, was yelling through the doors

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Speaker 5: down into the elevator shaft.

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Speaker 6: What happened? What happened? What's going on down there?

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Speaker 5: And Joe's like, come on, come on, we gotta go

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Speaker 5: back up. We gotta go back up now. Of course

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Speaker 5: you know where this story is going, right. I got

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Speaker 5: the two ropes there, and all of a sudden I

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Speaker 5: get this like dyslexia. I know one is for up

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Speaker 5: an the other one is down, but I, for the

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Speaker 5: life of me, I'm like, I'm paralyzed, And so I

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Speaker 5: pull one of the ropes and it's the wrong one.

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Speaker 5: And if the painting wasn't crushed before, well, when we

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Speaker 5: dropped down another six feet, this thing was mangled. What

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Speaker 5: had once been a six foot painting was now crushed

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Speaker 5: to about two feet tall. Oh my god, it was

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Speaker 5: irreparable practically. At that point, it was just, you know,

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Speaker 5: it was just, yeah, that wasn't good.

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Speaker 2: That was bad. When Mark finally got ahold of the

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Speaker 2: right rope, he and Joe rode the elevator back up

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Speaker 2: to Brita and removed the mangled painting. Joe and Britta

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Speaker 2: were fuming.

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Speaker 5: They said, you know, you might as well go home.

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Speaker 2: Joe and Britta told Mark they would call. So Mark

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Speaker 2: returned to the Fleabag Hotel, tail between his legs and

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Speaker 2: spent the next few days in his room, waiting by

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Speaker 2: the phone, willing Joe and Britta to reach out. But

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Speaker 2: they never did.

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Speaker 5: They just you know who could blame them, And that's

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Speaker 5: the last I ever saw of them.

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Speaker 2: For Mark, the elevator didn't just crush a painting, It

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Speaker 2: crushed his dream. His plan had always been to move

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Speaker 2: to New York after graduation and become a painter whose

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Speaker 2: work would hang in galleries or museums, basically to follow

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Speaker 2: in Joe's footsteps. But because of the elevator incident, Mark

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Speaker 2: never went back to New York. And so here is

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Speaker 2: the question that he's left with.

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Speaker 5: If I had not crushed a painting in the elevator,

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Speaker 5: would I be living in New York now somehow having

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Speaker 5: followed that trajectory of the life of an artist in

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Speaker 5: New York City? Yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Why have you been thinking about this again?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 5: Okay? So I saw this thing called the Miniature Puppet

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Speaker 5: Theater Workshop, I think it was called, and so I

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Speaker 5: signed up for it.

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Speaker 2: The class assignment for this Miniature Puppet Theater Workshop was

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Speaker 2: to make a puppet show based on an event from

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Speaker 2: your life, and the first thing that popped into Mark's

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Speaker 2: head was the elevator incident, which isn't that surprising. Mark

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Speaker 2: has told the story a lot over the years to

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Speaker 2: family and friends to make them laugh, but it's only

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Speaker 2: in working on his puppet show this last year that

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Speaker 2: he's begun to think about it differently. There were two

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Speaker 2: people in the elevator that day, Smasher and Smashy. Mark

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Speaker 2: is making a Mark puppet, but he also has to

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Speaker 2: make a Joe puppet, and the Joe puppet has to

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Speaker 2: have something to say. And that's where Mark is stuck.

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Speaker 2: He's struggling with writing the Joe puppets lines.

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Speaker 5: I feel like half of this is missing without knowing

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Speaker 5: Joe's perspective. It's like I'm going back to the scene

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Speaker 5: of the crime, and I need the witnesses, the other witnesses.

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Speaker 5: Otherwise I'm just I'm just rehearsing the same old lines

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Speaker 5: in my head I've had for forty years.

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Speaker 2: What about Joe? What about the show at Holly Solomon's.

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Speaker 2: The last time Mark saw Joe, he was weeping in

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Speaker 2: an elevator.

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Speaker 5: I wasn't thinking this at the time. I was thinking

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Speaker 5: only about myself. But now, years later, I hope, you know,

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Speaker 5: I hope that me crushing his painting didn't derail him

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Speaker 5: in any way. I could just track him down, get

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Speaker 5: his phone number, call him up right, But a little

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Speaker 5: bit of me scared.

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Speaker 2: Mark doesn't think Joe and Britta have necessarily softened in

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Speaker 2: the intervening years. Case in point, Mark read in Hampton's

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Speaker 2: Cottages and Gardens magazine about the dream house Joe and

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Speaker 2: Britta built after moving out of the city.

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Speaker 5: It contained no guest room.

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Speaker 2: In the magazine, Britta is quoted as saying, guests are

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Speaker 2: completely out of the question. It makes it easier, so

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00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,080
Speaker 2: they're not like the warmest. If we take their house

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Speaker 2: as a metaphor.

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Speaker 5: For who builds a house without a guest room. If

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Speaker 5: you're building it and designing, you I mean.

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Speaker 2: Someone who doesn't want any disturbances, which is exactly what

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Speaker 2: Mark wants me to be.

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Speaker 5: It's all in your hands now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I'm not used to being the puppet master.

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Speaker 5: Just we'm going to pull the right strings exactly.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna label them up and down. I'll tell you

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Speaker 2: that much. After the break, I roll down my sleeves

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Speaker 2: and get up to business. No wait wait, I roll

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Speaker 2: up my sleeves and get down and get down to business. Right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry.

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Speaker 2: I roll up my sleeves and get down to the business.

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Speaker 2: After the beating page, I've never fun owned a famous artist,

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Speaker 2: and on the whole they strike me as a pretty

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00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:09,080
Speaker 2: scary bunch, cutting off their ears, collecting mommafied feet, living

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Speaker 2: in addicts, and murdering people on tennis courts. So to

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Speaker 2: calm my nerves, I remind myself why artists make art

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Speaker 2: in the first place. They're sympathetic to the human condition,

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00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,440
Speaker 2: I say aloud as I pick up the phone. They're

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Speaker 2: sensitive to the struggles of their fellow man. I take

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Speaker 2: a deep breath and dial.

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Speaker 7: Hell.

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Speaker 2: Already, I feel like the call is going poorly. Hi there,

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Speaker 2: I'm calling for a mister Joe Zucker. Is this the

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Speaker 2: right number?

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Speaker 8: Yeah?

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00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:43,680
Speaker 2: Oh, hi, mister Zucker.

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Speaker 8: Why are your call?

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Speaker 2: It's a good question, I guess to ask a famous

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Speaker 2: artist to be on my internet radio show to talk

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Speaker 2: to an apprentice who mashed his painting in an elevator

300
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Speaker 2: and is now immortalizing the incident in a puppet show.

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00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,760
Speaker 2: My name is Stevie Lane, and I actually wrote you

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00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,560
Speaker 2: in a voice that sounds like a small dog rolling

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Speaker 2: onto its back and exposing it's vulnerable underbelly. I explained

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00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,680
Speaker 2: to Joe who I am and why I'm calling. I

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Speaker 2: am a producer of a podcast.

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Speaker 8: I'm not. Don't do things like that. I've got enough problems.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I just want to make sure this you do.

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Speaker 2: You remember you did have apprentices forty years ago when

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00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,320
Speaker 2: you were Yes, okay, so this is with regards to

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00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,080
Speaker 2: one of your old apprentices who who wanted to get

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Speaker 2: back in touch with you?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 8: Is that one of.

314
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Speaker 2: His name is Mark.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to.

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Speaker 8: Deal with him. These sounds are the person that I

317
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Speaker 8: had a problem.

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Speaker 2: Talking to Joe. I learned that he and Britta had

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Speaker 2: a number of apprentices, the majority of whom Joe says

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Speaker 2: were great. In fact, he and Britta are still in

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00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,520
Speaker 2: touch with one I assume Richard to this day.

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Speaker 8: But one of them and sounds like Jim loved to

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Speaker 8: jerk talk to my wife about us. She handles all

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Speaker 8: of the things that I do TV interviews, right shows.

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Speaker 8: I just do the work.

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Speaker 6: So if you call her.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, hi, hi, Hi, suddenly out of nowhere, Britta Levy, Hi, Hi,

328
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Speaker 2: is this miss LaVey?

329
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Speaker 3: Yeah?

330
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Speaker 1: And you are.

331
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Speaker 2: An absolute nobody. I feel like saying Britta is Kurt.

332
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,480
Speaker 2: She sounds like someone who has better things to do,

333
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,320
Speaker 2: like dog nap one hundred and one Dolmatians for a

334
00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,680
Speaker 2: fur coat. But I finally muster the courage to tell

335
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,160
Speaker 2: her about Mark, though not quite enough courage to get

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00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,440
Speaker 2: into the details of the elevator incident. I keep things

337
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:23,359
Speaker 2: pretty vague. He would like to reconnect with mister Zucker

338
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:28,359
Speaker 2: to sort of like understand, and before I know it,

339
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 2: this pops out to apologize for the way things went. Huh.

340
00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,879
Speaker 2: Although Mark hadn't explicitly charged me with promising an apology

341
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:43,280
Speaker 2: per se, he did say he wanted Joe's perspective that

342
00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,960
Speaker 2: he felt bad about how things ended. It's not that

343
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,080
Speaker 2: big a leap anyway. I got flustered at the mention

344
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,760
Speaker 2: of a carte blanche apology, though brittish tone shifts.

345
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Speaker 9: Yeah, well, if that's how he feels, you know, one

346
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 9: certainly wouldn't all object to that. I'm sure we can

347
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:03,119
Speaker 9: figure this out.

348
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:08,520
Speaker 2: Forty years later, Britta is still Joe's gatekeeper, and just

349
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 2: like that, the gate swings open.

350
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:18,920
Speaker 1: Hello.

351
00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,640
Speaker 10: Hello, that's a journal.

352
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,960
Speaker 2: You're right back yet you got me there. I was

353
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,160
Speaker 2: like talking to you as though you were there. Hey,

354
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Speaker 2: it's Stevie. I just want to let you know that.

355
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Speaker 4: We're on Hi.

356
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:32,920
Speaker 5: What does Stevie want to talk about now?

357
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,720
Speaker 2: Stevie wants to talk about the upcoming conversation with Joe

358
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,440
Speaker 2: and Britta and the apology I promised I outlined from

359
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 2: Mark the terms of our parlay. I ease into it.

360
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:45,359
Speaker 2: I mean, I hope it doesn't. I hope it's not

361
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:46,640
Speaker 2: what you don't want to say. I mean, I think

362
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 2: my impression from like the last time we spoke was

363
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,720
Speaker 2: that it in part it is. But I think, and

364
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Speaker 2: I'm not saying this, I mean, you know, I understand

365
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Speaker 2: like accidents happen and stuff, and you know I'm on

366
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Speaker 2: your side. But I think in terms of like sort

367
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:07,240
Speaker 2: of like setting this late clean for the conversation, my

368
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 2: impression is that a sort of like an apology would

369
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 2: be something that they would, you know, I think that

370
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:16,400
Speaker 2: would just be a nice thing.

371
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 5: Sure, I mean, and I can see.

372
00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 2: That Mark is happy to apologize, but having to apologize

373
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,360
Speaker 2: it makes him realize that Britta and Joe still harbor resentment,

374
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Speaker 2: which makes him nervous.

375
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Speaker 5: I'm getting that feeling in my stomach like I used

376
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,040
Speaker 5: to get. You know, what was it not? Trepidation?

377
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 2: Dread?

378
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 5: Dread? I have a little dread here.

379
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, if you feel like you can't

380
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 2: do this, then we should have that conversation.

381
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Speaker 5: Do you have friends, Is this is what you do to them?

382
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 1: No?

383
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:01,879
Speaker 4: I have.

384
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Speaker 5: I have crushed paintings before my life. I can do this. Yeah,

385
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 5: we're gonna crush this.

386
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:17,119
Speaker 2: We're gonna Scheduling for Joe goes through Britta, and in

387
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 2: the coming days, I'm on the phone with her frequently,

388
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,360
Speaker 2: more frequently than anyone else in my life. I sort

389
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 2: of feel like Britta Leave is my new best friend. Hello, Hi, Britta,

390
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 2: how are you?

391
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,360
Speaker 6: Oh Stevie, how are you?

392
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 2: I'm fine. Britta's working on a documentary about Joe, a

393
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 2: book of Joe's work, organizing Joe's archives. Never once when

394
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:42,879
Speaker 2: I call is she just sitting at home relaxing.

395
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 10: I'm driving around and everybody's going off to the beach,

396
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 10: and I thought.

397
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 1: What the fuck about me?

398
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 6: Where am I going to the beach?

399
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 11: You know?

400
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 2: But as busy as she is, she always picks up

401
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,959
Speaker 2: when I phone, even if she's in the woods.

402
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 1: I was trying to dig out some swamp plant.

403
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 2: Wait, it's a week You're literally out in the woods

404
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 2: with a shovel.

405
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 10: Like yep, and was almost arrested because some asshole drove

406
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,199
Speaker 10: by on her bicycle and you saw me it was

407
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:13,959
Speaker 10: the big shovel.

408
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to call the police. Don't you have anything

409
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 1: better to do?

410
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 2: Britta has strong opinions and isn't afraid to call people out,

411
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,400
Speaker 2: like at one point, she tells me about another apprentice

412
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 2: of Joe's, and keep in mind this is one that

413
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 2: she actually liked.

414
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 9: He was totally useless, and it was very sad to

415
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 9: see this young, untrusted man child, you know, trying to

416
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 9: find a place in Joe's studio.

417
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 2: I'm the kind of person who will go to absurd

418
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 2: lengths to avoid hurting someone's feelings. Once on a date,

419
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 2: I made up a whole fake roommate and that fake

420
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 2: roommate's fake sister, Lillian, who lived in Virginia Med School

421
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 2: second year. But I was visiting and locked out of

422
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:03,679
Speaker 2: our apartment and needed my key, so I had to

423
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 2: go just to avoid telling the guy I was bored.

424
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 2: When I got back to my apartment, I half expected

425
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 2: Lillian to be there, so I let Britta know that

426
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 2: I admire her honesty. It's not so much that I'm honest,

427
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,880
Speaker 2: she says, but that I'm fearless. I've been that way

428
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 2: since I was a young girl. Britta's father was wounded

429
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 2: in World War Two and left with facial scars. People

430
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 2: would gok, and even as a child, Britta would stare

431
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 2: them down, unafraid, which is all to say. Though I

432
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 2: admire Britta, I worry that when meeting Mark, she may

433
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 2: be overly fearless and underly sensitive.

434
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 5: Okay, my hands are a little clammy. I don't know why.

435
00:24:58,280 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 5: Why am I like twenty one?

436
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 2: All of a sudden again, on a Friday after work,

437
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 2: Mark and I get into a video call. Mark is

438
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 2: in his basement, his son's drum kit behind him. His

439
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 2: beard looks freshly trimmed. Britta and Joe arrive right on time. Well,

440
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: it looks like Britta's entered the room. I think I'm

441
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 2: going to admit her.

442
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 4: You ready.

443
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:26,120
Speaker 2: Whenever you are countdown like three, two, one, So they're connecting.

444
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 6: Hello, Hello, Hi Hello.

445
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 2: In the frame, Britta and Joe are seated side by side.

446
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 2: Britta has greta garbo eyebrows rounded like question marks punctuating

447
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 2: the question, and you are. Joe is in his early

448
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 2: eighties now. He has artsy glasses, and, like Mark, a

449
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 2: gray mustache and goatee.

450
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 5: Hi Mark, Hello, Britta, Hi Joe. Been a while, no

451
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 5: forty years? You guys look great. You look as young

452
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 5: as you ever did it.

453
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 11: Flattery gets you every So.

454
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 2: Joe remembered Mark's name on the phone, he doesn't seem

455
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 2: to remember Mark's face.

456
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 12: You were from the great Lyrics Hard Association, That's right, Yes, yeah?

457
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 10: Did you get to pick Joe's studio?

458
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 5: I don't think I did you. You probably didn't get

459
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 5: to pick me either.

460
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 6: No, no, we didn't. We just got what we got.

461
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 2: After exchanging a few more semi pleasantries, Mark dives in.

462
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 5: First of all, I want to just say thank you

463
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 5: so much for offering to be here today. I'm so glad.

464
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 2: Then he doesn't bring up the crushed painting. He doesn't

465
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 2: make the apology, I promised. Instead, he makes the artistic

466
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 2: choice to begin with a flashback. A flash way back.

467
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 5: Okay, so I grew up in Rotlan, Vermont, and.

468
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 2: I was you know, no sooner than he gets started,

469
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 2: and Mark is already getting sidetracked, talking about going to

470
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 2: a museum for the first time when he was nineteen,

471
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 2: about a job he had as a caddie when he

472
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 2: was a kid.

473
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 5: And I pulled the cart across the green didn't know

474
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 5: you weren't supposed to do that.

475
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 2: To be honest, there are moments when I just have

476
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 2: no idea what he's talking about.

477
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 5: Pretty nice now I've walked by them. They're lovely condos now.

478
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 2: But in that time, I feel like I'm watching a

479
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 2: filibuster on c SPAN. As puppet master. I wish I

480
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 2: could stick my hand up his butt like the open

481
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 2: end of a sock puppet and make his mouth say

482
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I'm growing impatient. And it seems Joe is too.

483
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 5: Laurie Anderson, she just was coming out with her first

484
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 5: album that year, nineteen eighty one.

485
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 12: What event are we talking about? The serve a specific

486
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 12: event that you can nailed down.

487
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I seize the opportunity. I feel like there's

488
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 2: this elephant in the room, the thing that we're not

489
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 2: talking about, which is really the reason why we're here. Mark,

490
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 2: if you want to remind Joe and Britta why you

491
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 2: know you were thinking about them again.

492
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 5: So I was in your studio the last day. I

493
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 5: was in your studio actually.

494
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 2: And so finally Mark gets to it, bringing it back

495
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 2: to the elevator incident.

496
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 5: And there was this two rope system, one rope to

497
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 5: go up and another one to go down. Well, you

498
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 5: know what rope I pulled right, the wrong rope.

499
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 2: I've heard Mark tell this story a lot, and every

500
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: time it makes me laugh. But listening with Britta and

501
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 2: Joe is like sitting through your favorite movie with your parents,

502
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: seeing it for the first time through their eyes. The

503
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: funny parts seem kind of crass, the raunchy parts cringe worthy.

504
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 5: And I crushed your painting, Joe, And that is what

505
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 5: I'm here, is what I'm here to apologize about.

506
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 2: On the screen, Joe and Britta look confused, even more

507
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: confused than a few minutes ago when Mark was monologuing

508
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 2: about the vagaries of Manhattan real estate.

509
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 5: What I realized over the years was you gotta go back,

510
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 5: you gotta say you're sorry.

511
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 11: You know, no, why are we talking about that paint

512
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 11: because that's the painting he smashed in the elevator.

513
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 6: Remember, I didn't even know that he did it.

514
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 12: I thought somebody who was taking it going to take

515
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 12: it to the Delaware broke the penict In the all

516
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 12: of it, I.

517
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 6: Didn't even know that it was Mark.

518
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 12: I never remember him doing the damage to the pain.

519
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 2: In fact, when Joe thinks of the damage to the

520
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 2: boxing paintings, it's not the elevator story that sticks in

521
00:29:59,200 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 2: his mind at all.

522
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 4: Really.

523
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 2: Right before the opening at Holly Solomon's, it came time

524
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 2: for Joe to sign his work.

525
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 12: I forgot the I was used and felt tip marker

526
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 12: where she goes through canvas, and when I signed the paintings,

527
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 12: it came through felt tip marker.

528
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 6: Was the cultra.

529
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 2: Joe's signature bled through to the front of the painting,

530
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 2: So just days ahead of the opening, Joe and Bretta

531
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 2: had to find an art restore to fix it, which

532
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 2: is also what they did to fix the painting Mark

533
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: had mashed, and as it turns out, that painting made

534
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 2: it into the show. Was there to complete the series

535
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 2: as Joe intended, no one could tell it had practically

536
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 2: been through a garbage compactor, in other words, no derailment.

537
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 2: In fact, in a review of the opening, one critic

538
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: even claimed that the power of the paintings lay in

539
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 2: their hidden violence, if only she knew how violent their

540
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 2: creation really was.

541
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 6: It was an accident. There's no sense to fix things

542
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 6: like that. Happen.

543
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 10: Stuff happens, you know, yeah, and you know, no apology necessary.

544
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: But if it wasn't about the painting, what was it

545
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 2: that made Mark quote the one Joe had problems with.

546
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 2: What did Mark have to apologize for?

547
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 6: It was mostly out of too He didn't like this.

548
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 6: He didn't like that.

549
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 2: Mark didn't like being told what to do, didn't like

550
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 2: taking things too seriously. Mark admits that he made glib jokes,

551
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 2: which annoyed Britta and Joe.

552
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 5: I was trying to act like I was cool and sophisticated,

553
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 5: and I think I was on the defensive at first.

554
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 2: And the thing that really bothered Joe, it seems, is

555
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 2: that after the elevator incident, Mark disappeared after forty years.

556
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 2: The specifics are fuzzy, but here's what I gets from

557
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: Mark's perspective. When Joe and Britta said we'll call you,

558
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 2: it meant we'll call you and don't come back until

559
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 2: we do. But from Joe and Britta's perspective, we'll call

560
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 2: you was more of a this is a nightmare. We

561
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 2: don't need you here right now, but see you tomorrow.

562
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 12: You have to realize I was dealing with Holland Solemon,

563
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 12: which is an added part of the whole misery, because

564
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 12: she was very difficult.

565
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 2: Holly was to Joe what Joe was to Mark, someone

566
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 2: who could make or break him. Joe and Britta weren't

567
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 2: thinking about Mark when they had Holly to worry about,

568
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 2: so they weren't thinking about how Mark was feeling, but

569
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 2: today they are.

570
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 10: I'm really sorry we didn't have the where was all

571
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 10: to see that the student had issues, had problems, you know, yeah,

572
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 10: And I mean I would have been devastated if I

573
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 10: would have ruined some artists work. That would have been

574
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 10: very difficult to overcome. So I'm really sorry that happened.

575
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 2: Britta isn't afraid to call people out, including herself, and

576
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 2: as always, Mark isn't afraid to make jokes.

577
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 5: And I'm sorry that I crushed a painting in the elevator.

578
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 5: So I guess we're even. I was imitating a lot

579
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 5: of stuff, you know, because I was young, and I.

580
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 10: Think I think we need to stop.

581
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 2: About an hour into the conversation, Britta interrupts Mark. On screen,

582
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 2: Joe takes a hold of his walker and slowly rises

583
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 2: to his feet. He turns away from the camera, calling

584
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 2: out goodbyes as he moves down the long hallway behind them.

585
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: Britta looks concerned.

586
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 10: Because Joel had hip surgery and I can see he's

587
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 10: not sick, feeling well.

588
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 6: I needs to laid down.

589
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 5: Well, thank you Joe so much for the time that

590
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 5: you were able to spend with us, and maybe we

591
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 5: can do this again.

592
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, I think that might be a nice idea. Mark,

593
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 10: please be in touch.

594
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 2: Bretta rushes to Joe's aid. As gatekeeper, she has spent

595
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 2: years protecting Joe's art. Now it seems her main job

596
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:33,399
Speaker 2: is protecting Joe by everybody. I'm with that the gate

597
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 2: swings shut. Can you move the mic a little closer? Oh,

598
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, that's much better. After the conversation with Joe

599
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 2: and Bretta, Mark and I debrief.

600
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 5: If you go back to the scene of the crime

601
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,280
Speaker 5: and the victims don't remember, and you say you're sorry

602
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 5: to them, You know, what are you really doing? You're

603
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,959
Speaker 5: just sort of assuaging your own guilt. But I don't

604
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 5: think it was really doing anything them because they couldn't

605
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 5: remember it.

606
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 2: Joe seemed angrier at the Felt tip marker than he

607
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 2: was at Mark, maybe because the marker was in his

608
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 2: own hand. Those are the mistakes that are hardest to

609
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 2: forget our own.

610
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 5: So in some ways I think that you know, the

611
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 5: person I should be saying I'm sorry to was my

612
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 5: younger self.

613
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 2: In fact, the puppets Mark has been making for that

614
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 2: puppet show. He made the Mark puppet to look like

615
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 2: himself around age twenty, but the Joe puppet doesn't look

616
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 2: like Joe. Instead, Mark made it to look like himself

617
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 2: now at age sixty. So in the scenes where the

618
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 2: Joe puppet is yelling at the Mark puppet making him

619
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 2: feel like he's no good, chastising him for crushing the painting,

620
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 2: it's actually present day Mark yelling at his younger.

621
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 5: Self, that little twenty year old Mark. I think my

622
00:35:55,600 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 5: older self blamed him for a road that I didn't

623
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 5: I didn't take, didn't travel down.

624
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 6: And then maybe my younger Mark can.

625
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 5: Let the older Mark off the hook too.

626
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 2: What would the younger Mark be letting the older Mark

627
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 2: off the hook for?

628
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 5: Well, I think for you know, maybe a dream that

629
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 5: I didn't follow through on.

630
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

631
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 5: But you have to make sacrifices if you're going to

632
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 5: be a kind of blue chip elite artist in New York,

633
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 5: which was a dream of mine. But I would have

634
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 5: given up so much to do that. I had to

635
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 5: give it up so much to do that.

636
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 7: Like what, Oh my god, I have my family, you

637
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 7: mean yeah.

638
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 2: Mark grows quiet, looks down.

639
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 5: I am so lucky that the art I ended up

640
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 5: doing could involve my own family.

641
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,240
Speaker 2: Mark got to share his art with his three sons

642
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 2: as they grew up. He helped them with elaborate Halloween costumes.

643
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 2: He hosted birthday parties for them in his studio, surrounded

644
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 2: by all his giant puppets. His sons participate in an

645
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 2: annual street puppet festival Mark founded fifteen years ago called Festivals.

646
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 2: One Son is a playwright. Might even help him with

647
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 2: the Elevator puppet show, of which.

648
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 5: Holly I told her before not to send these philistines

649
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 5: to my studio while I'm in the middle of working

650
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 5: on a show, a show for you.

651
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 2: When Mark first reached out to me, he was struggling

652
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 2: with his puppet show. But since the conversation with Joe,

653
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 2: he's made progress. He's writing new scenes, new dialogue, and

654
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: he's made another puppet.

655
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 5: We have a new character too that we were going

656
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:54,720
Speaker 5: to introduce today.

657
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 2: Can you guess who?

658
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:57,280
Speaker 6: Okay?

659
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 5: Now who? The microphone just said little bit? Okay, do

660
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 5: you want to say, like, you know, maybe you're sorry.

661
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,240
Speaker 4: Or something anything?

662
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 6: Okay, let's just take it again.

663
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 4: From now that the Fernitures returning.

664
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 2: To it's good Will home.

665
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 4: Now that's the lash. Monstrand is scheming with the damage

666
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 4: to take this moment.

667
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: To do so, if we ment, if we track.

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Speaker 4: Felt around for far too.

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Speaker 2: Acid. This episode of Heavyweight was produced by me Stevie Lane,

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00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 2: along with Mohemy mcgauker and Jonathan Goldstein. Our senior producer

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00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 2: is Khalila Holt. Special thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Bloomberg,

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Speaker 2: Phoebe Flanagan, Rayhan Harmancy, Andrea B. Scott, and Bobby Lord.

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Speaker 2: Bobby Lord also mixed the episode with original music by

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Speaker 2: Christine Fellows, John K. Sampson, Michael Hurst Sean Jacoby and

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Speaker 2: he himself Bobby Lord. Additional music credits can be found

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Speaker 2: on our website, gimlimedia dot com slash Heavyweight. Our theme

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00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 2: song is by The Weaker Thens, courtesy of Epitaph Records.

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Speaker 2: Follow us on Twitter at Heavyweight or email us at

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Speaker 2: Heavyweight at gimlipmedia dot com. Jonathan will be strutting back

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Speaker 2: into the studio for our season finale next week