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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.

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Speaker 2: Breaking news in the prosecution of Brian Coburger, charged in

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Speaker 2: the four murders of four.

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Speaker 3: Beautiful University, Idaho students.

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Speaker 2: In the last hours, we learn Coburger's mother has already

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Speaker 2: testified in front of a Pennsylvania grand jury and his

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Speaker 2: father is set to testify over their strenuous objections. What

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Speaker 2: does that have to do with, well, the murder of

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Speaker 2: a woman with three children, the youngest being aged seven,

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Speaker 2: Dana Smithers, who goes missing from the same county where

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Speaker 2: Coburger lived.

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Speaker 3: With his family.

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Speaker 2: They're in the Poconos just before he leaves for Washington

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Speaker 2: State University. Why are Coburger's parents being forced to testify

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Speaker 2: in a grand jury murder investigation in Pennsylvania. I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us

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Speaker 2: here at Fox Nation in series.

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Speaker 3: XM one eleven.

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Speaker 2: First of all, I want to go out to the

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Speaker 2: founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute, the

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Speaker 2: Starvenu podcast Zone seven, Cheryl McCollum. Cheryl, Of course, a

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Speaker 2: grand jury has two arms, investigative and charging. The charging

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Speaker 2: arm is when they indict you and hand down a

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Speaker 2: true bill or a no bill.

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Speaker 3: They don't charge you.

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Speaker 2: The investigative part is when they take a matter under consideration,

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Speaker 2: the subpoena, documents, object people, all sorts of evidence, and

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Speaker 2: then they decide if there should be a charge. We

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Speaker 2: don't know whether this grand jury is acting in a

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Speaker 2: capacity of investigating and ruling out Coburger or investigating preparing

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Speaker 2: to charge Coburger in relation to the murder of Dana Smithers.

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Speaker 3: What do you make of it?

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Speaker 4: I think they are taking out his alibi when he

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Speaker 4: says he has an airtight alibi. Let's say his parents

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Speaker 4: were his alibi. They're gonna talk to them individually and

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Speaker 4: make sure that their story lines up with his story.

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Speaker 4: I think this is absolutely investigator.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's analyze the facts as we know them

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Speaker 2: with me an all star panel to make sense of

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Speaker 2: what we know right now. To Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,

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Speaker 2: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on

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Speaker 2: Amazon at start of a Hitting You podcast Body Bags

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Speaker 2: with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, do you differ in

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Speaker 2: your opinion? What is the evidence? You have always maintained

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Speaker 2: that Coburger's first murders were not the Idaho students.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I have because it was such a flourish when

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Speaker 5: you think of it, you know that this individual would

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Speaker 5: go in and butcher these four students and at this

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Speaker 5: one time, and a lot of people will say, well,

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Speaker 5: he was just surprised. He wasn't anticipating. This guy doesn't.

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Speaker 5: This guy anticipates.

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Speaker 3: Everything, surprised about what that.

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Speaker 5: There were more than one victim, or that there were

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Speaker 5: more than one person that they were targeting, that he

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Speaker 5: was targeting. So I think that he had full awareness.

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Speaker 5: You know, he had been surveilling this area for some time.

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Speaker 5: Most of these people that start off are that have

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Speaker 5: their beginnings, you know, start off doing things like engaging

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Speaker 5: in things like peeping tommery or attempting to steal underwear

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Speaker 5: and those sorts of things. So I don't know that

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Speaker 5: it extends out to the idea that his first his

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Speaker 5: first interaction of something nefarious was necessarily a homicide. But

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Speaker 5: I think that there was certainly a dark side. Whether

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Speaker 5: or not this woman is one of his victims or

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Speaker 5: a potential victim of his, remains to be seen, because

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Speaker 5: we need more information from our autopsy.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's going to be tough because, as we know,

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Speaker 2: her remains were so decomposed, she had to be identified

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Speaker 2: through her dental records, so we also don't have a

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Speaker 2: cause of death. But speaking of underwear, to Chris mcdonna,

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Speaker 2: a direct her at the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide

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Speaker 2: detective and host of YouTube channel The Interview Room, Chris mcdonnah,

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Speaker 2: thank you for being with us along with Cheryl, Joe Scott,

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Speaker 2: and our other panelists. Speaking of underwe where I hear

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Speaker 2: where Joe Scott Morgan is going, and I agree yet

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Speaker 2: disagree with him. I can't do this is anecdotal, this

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Speaker 2: is not statistical. But I noticed in so many rate

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Speaker 2: files and murder files, if you look far back enough

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Speaker 2: into a defendants record criminal history, and you get their

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Speaker 2: juvenile records, you very often will see peeping tom trespassing,

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Speaker 2: minor offenses that were sex related, trespassing going into somebody's bedroom, trespassing,

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Speaker 2: going into their car and rifling through their lipstick and

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Speaker 2: their stuff they've got in their car. Peeping tom looking

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Speaker 2: into a woman's window while she's taking a bath or

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Speaker 2: changing clothes, or really just sitting there on the sofa

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Speaker 2: reading a book or watching TV. That's peeping Tom, and

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Speaker 2: it escalates. It progresses to stalking, to an aggravated battery,

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Speaker 2: to a rate to asdomy, to a murder.

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Speaker 3: It progresses.

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Speaker 2: Like we go from pre k to graduating college, they

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Speaker 2: go from peeping Tom to a full on quadruple murder.

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Speaker 3: That's what I'm talking about. Underwear, underwear, underwear.

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Speaker 2: Remember the incident of the neighbor in Idaho regarding her underwear.

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Speaker 6: Yes, the underwear that was found in the car door

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Speaker 6: of the young college student next to where the victims

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Speaker 6: were ultimately discovered. Those are the types of incidents, Nancy,

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Speaker 6: that we've been talking about, where those are kind of

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Speaker 6: what we call pre incident indicators up to the big point,

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Speaker 6: up to the paint.

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Speaker 2: I need you to have a big word for it.

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Speaker 2: As I often say to Jackie, Why use one word

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Speaker 2: when you could use fifty? Okay, what did you call it?

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Speaker 2: Pre incident?

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Speaker 6: What indicators? Right? These are behaviors before I.

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Speaker 3: Call them babysteps, yes, ma'am.

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Speaker 6: And so these are behaviors that are before the crime.

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Speaker 6: And if we look at this particular incident now I

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Speaker 6: agree with Cheryl and both Scott. I mean where you

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Speaker 6: have a grand jury potentially as an investigative probe here.

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Speaker 6: But if we go back and we narrow this down

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Speaker 6: pretty quickly, if we have to give this Dana Smithers,

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Speaker 6: the woman that's been discovered there, we've got to give

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Speaker 6: her the same look as we did the four students

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Speaker 6: in Idaho. And the first thing that came to immediately

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Speaker 6: to me is the crime scene, which that's what we

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Speaker 6: call the disposal site. And it's a body dump is

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Speaker 6: what we would call it in Cheryl, and everybody here

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Speaker 6: knows what I'm talking about. It's right off of the

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Speaker 6: over a railing by a freeway entrance, and it's across

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Speaker 6: the street from a multi three story unit hotel. The

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Speaker 6: address is a Hunter Park Avenue in Bangor, Pennsylvania. And

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Speaker 6: if you go to Google Earth and you look at it,

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Speaker 6: and you look at the photographs of where the police

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Speaker 6: are searching, and then you look at this crime scene

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Speaker 6: as a whole, this area, the next thing you would

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Speaker 6: want to look at is what we call a contact site.

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Speaker 6: Where does a suspect and the victim cross paths in

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Speaker 6: relationship to where they were discovered. So, going back to

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Speaker 6: your point about the voyeurism role, here is he thinking

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Speaker 6: through you know, his fantasy, and the fantasy builds, it builds,

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Speaker 6: and he arbitrarily comes across this victim, you know, walking

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Speaker 6: or because it sounds like she left her house at

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Speaker 6: a certain point, et cetera. And so those are the

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Speaker 6: kind of things we want to look at here as

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Speaker 6: this information starts unfold further about Dana.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's talk about what we know about Dana, because

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Speaker 2: this is what I would be looking at. Let me

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Speaker 2: circle back to Cheryl McCollum before I go to Tara

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Speaker 2: Malik joining us out of the Idaho jurisdiction, veteran trial lawyer,

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Speaker 2: partner in Smith and Malik, former state and federal prosecutor.

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Speaker 2: I want to talk to her about what a grand

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Speaker 2: jury could be doing. Of course it's secret, that makes

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Speaker 2: it sound so nefarious, but all grand juries are in secret,

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Speaker 2: not just one grand jury, but all grand juries are

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Speaker 2: held in secret. Cheryl McCollum, I would be looking right

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Speaker 2: now at social media. I would be looking at whether

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Speaker 2: Coburger had any connection to her on social media. That

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Speaker 2: is how we think he first identified the four Idaho

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Speaker 2: slave victims, the girls. Anyway, that's what I would be

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Speaker 2: looking for. A similar mo modus operandi method of operation Cheryl.

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Speaker 4: That's absolutely right. One thing that I'm curious about, Nancy.

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Speaker 4: We have three potential crime scenes. So when the victim

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Speaker 4: is leaving her friend's house, which is only three doors down,

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Speaker 4: she has her cell phone in her hand. Her cell

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Speaker 4: phone is then found in her home. So was he

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Speaker 4: laying in wait? Did he bum rush her? How did

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Speaker 4: he get her out of the house. We then he

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Speaker 4: must have had a vehicle. We would think to transport

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Speaker 4: her to the body disposal site, and then the dumping

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Speaker 4: site would be our third one. I would try to

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Speaker 4: connect somebody to all three of those sites. She was

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Speaker 4: called on ring camera. Possibly he was two or.

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Speaker 3: His vehicle again, I would be combing if they still

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Speaker 3: have it.

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Speaker 2: That is coming surveillance videos from that date May twenty eight,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty two. Remember the four sleighs occurred November. See

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Speaker 2: May June, July, August, September, October, November, six months later,

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Speaker 2: coming all of these surveillance video at gas stations, at

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Speaker 2: the hotel motel that Chris mcdonnad just mentioned, and the

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Speaker 2: interstate ramps, at red lights, everywhere I could find it

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Speaker 2: to see who with whom she hooked up. Hi guys,

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Speaker 2: Nancy Grace here. Please join us now on Fox Nation

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Speaker 2: for a brand new investigation, Parallels of Evil the Bundy

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Speaker 2: and Idaho Killings. In this gripping special investigation, we bring

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Speaker 2: together an incredible panel of guests who analyze disturbing similarities

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Speaker 2: of evil between these horrible crimes. We speak with two

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Speaker 2: female Ted Bundy survivors, Karen Pryor and Cheryl Thomas, who

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Speaker 2: described their life before and after they were victims of

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Speaker 2: Ted Bundy. We also speak with the renowned private investigator

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Speaker 2: Bill Warner who worked the cases, and Ted Bundy's defense attorney,

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Speaker 2: John Henry Brown.

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Speaker 3: We traveled to.

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Speaker 2: Moscow, Idaho, to speak with Washington State University students and

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Speaker 2: interview neighbors of Brian Coburger. One neighbor shares exclusive insights

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Speaker 2: about the suspect in the Idaho killings, Brian Coburger. Don't

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Speaker 2: miss Parallels of Evil the Bundy and Idaho Killings, streaming

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Speaker 2: now exclusively on Fox Stature Time Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 3: Now another thing.

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Speaker 2: Let's follow her movements, Follow her movements that evening, you know.

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Speaker 3: Let's start with our cut four five one.

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Speaker 7: Jackie neighbor, Terra Sioni says Dana Smithers came to her

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Speaker 7: home late the night of the festival. They only lived

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Speaker 7: a few houses from each other and the visit was

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Speaker 7: nothing unusual. Sioni tells Dateline that Smithers was smoking and

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Speaker 7: that was something she only saw Smithers doing when she

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Speaker 7: was nervous or on edge. Smithers invited Sioni to her home,

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Speaker 7: but Sioni declined as she was tired. Smithers went home

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Speaker 7: around eleven pm, her departure captured on Sionie's ring camera.

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Speaker 7: She had her phone in her hand. That was the

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Speaker 7: last time anyone saw Dana Smithers.

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Speaker 2: So she was at the friend's house after a local

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Speaker 2: festival and she had only her phone because she walked

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Speaker 2: to the friend's house. She's a couple of doors downroom

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Speaker 2: where she Denas Smithers lived with her seven year old

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Speaker 2: daughter and her mother. Festival What Festival Take a lit

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Speaker 2: Star cut four five zero.

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Speaker 8: Dena Smithers grew up in Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania with her sister Stacy,

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Speaker 8: who describes her sister as Gregary Yes. Stacy tells Dateline

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Speaker 8: that Smithers is fun loving with a very boisterous laugh.

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Speaker 8: Dina Smithers is a mother of three to a twenty

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Speaker 8: five year old son, a twenty three year old daughter,

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Speaker 8: and a seven year old daughter. The day she went missing,

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Speaker 8: Smithers spent the day with her youngest daughter and the

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Speaker 8: girl's father at a nearby festival. The father and Smithers

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Speaker 8: were no longer a couple, but maintained an amicable relationship

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Speaker 8: for their daughter. Back home, after the festival, Dina Smithers

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Speaker 8: went down the street to speak to her neighbor of

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Speaker 8: sixteen years, TIRACIONI.

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Speaker 2: So she Dennas Smithers is at this festival with her daughter,

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Speaker 2: seven years old, her ex They say they have an

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Speaker 2: amicable relationship. They leave for the evening. They after spending

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Speaker 2: the day there, she goes home. Her seven year old

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Speaker 2: is at home with the grandma, Dana's mother. She walks

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Speaker 2: down the street to visit with friend Tara. She leaves

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Speaker 2: Tara's home and she spotted around eleven pm on the

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Speaker 2: ring doorbell. You can see her very clearly walking away

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Speaker 2: with her phone in her hand. Here is the rub.

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Speaker 2: Her cell phone and keys and her meds that she

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Speaker 2: never fell taking are at home. So where does she

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Speaker 2: go without her cell phone? And I want to go

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Speaker 2: out to Tara Malick joining us out of the Idaho jurisdiction. Tara,

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Speaker 2: a grand jury, as I said, is investigative and charging.

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Speaker 3: What do you make of both the parents, both.

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Speaker 2: Of Coburger's parents being called to testify from that Pennsylvania

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Speaker 2: grand jury.

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Speaker 3: And I'd also like to point.

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Speaker 2: Out that the body is found in the same county

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Speaker 2: where the parents. Coburger's parents live there in the Poconos,

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Speaker 2: It's Monroe County, So that is a coincidence. It's really

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Speaker 2: hard to ignore.

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Speaker 3: Do you agree?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 9: I agree. I think it's very odd. I think their location,

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Speaker 9: their geographic location, the timing and when this occurred right

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Speaker 9: before Coburger was going off to Washington University, I think

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Speaker 9: all of that is highly suspicious and problematic for them.

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Speaker 9: What'll be interesting is, you know whether either one of

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Speaker 9: them took the fifth or fleeted the fifth during the

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Speaker 9: grand jury proceedings. Already, we've got some suspicions with Dad.

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Speaker 9: Why was he, you know, assisting Coburger as he drove

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Speaker 9: cross country back to Pennsylvania in a really weird and

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Speaker 9: circuitous kind of route. So I think it's a it's

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Speaker 9: an odd position for them to be in.

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Speaker 2: Repeat Danis Smithers the murder victim last. Although we don't

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Speaker 2: have a cause of death yet, I find it really

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Speaker 2: hard to believe she goes off to a wooded area

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Speaker 2: and just dies of natural causes. Smithers lasting alive, leaving

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Speaker 2: friends home in Monroe County, the same county where Coburger

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Speaker 2: lived with his parents in All Rights Full near all

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Speaker 2: Riceful before moving cross country to pursue a doctorate at WSU.

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Speaker 3: That move proofs.

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Speaker 2: Fatal because only nine to ten miles away from his

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Speaker 2: apartment in Pullman. There at Washington State are the four

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Speaker 2: murder victims. What more do we know about Dana smithers

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Speaker 2: disappearance that night? Take a listen to our friends at

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Speaker 2: crimeonline dot com. In four five two.

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Speaker 8: Smithers phone, car, keys, and medication were later found at

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Speaker 8: her house. After Smithers was reported missing, the Stroud Area

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Speaker 8: Regional Police Department conducted searches about a month after her disappearance.

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Speaker 8: The Pennsylvania State Police joined the search of the park

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Speaker 8: down the street from smithers home. Cadaver dogs were also

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Speaker 8: brought in, but nothing was found. Diana is about five

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Speaker 8: feet five inches tall weighs one hundred and sixty pounds

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Speaker 8: and has brown hair and brown eyes. She was last

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Speaker 8: seen wearing a red shirt with black pants and white shoes.

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Speaker 3: What more do we know? Take a listenerw cut four

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Speaker 3: fifty four our friends at wb R E.

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Speaker 10: Forty five year old Dana Smithers has been missing for

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Speaker 10: nearly a month now. She was last seen here on

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Speaker 10: Stokes Avenue. I spoke to her daughter in law about

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Speaker 10: what Dana was doing that day and when they decided

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Speaker 10: to call police.

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Speaker 11: Someone doesn't just disappear, You don't just vanish out of

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Speaker 11: the air and are never seen again.

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Speaker 10: Briann Farino is the daughter in law of Dana Smithers,

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Speaker 10: a Straudsburg woman who's been missing.

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Speaker 11: Dana is very outgoing. She is the type of person

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Speaker 11: who will start up a conversation with you in the

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Speaker 11: grocery store and like you just made a lifelong friend.

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Speaker 11: She is very outgoing. She is very like she can

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Speaker 11: make anybody laugh and more.

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Speaker 3: In four or five five from our friend Sydney Costas, Dana.

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Speaker 10: Went to a street festival at a local restaurant with

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Speaker 10: her six year old daughter. Later that night, she walked

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Speaker 10: a few houses down to a friend's home on Stokes Avenue.

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Speaker 10: That's when she was last seen on a ring camera

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Speaker 10: after eleven PM. The next morning, her cell phone and

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Speaker 10: medication left behind at her home with no sign of Dana.

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Speaker 11: Her purse, her her car, everything that she would bring

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Speaker 11: you would bring with you anywhere you go is at

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Speaker 11: the house.

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Speaker 10: Dana's family reached out to Stroud Area Regional Police after

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Speaker 10: no one heard from her for two days. Dana was

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Speaker 10: last wearing black jeans and a burgundy shirt for Reino

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Speaker 10: says each day brings more discouragement and they need the

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Speaker 10: public's help to find her.

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Speaker 11: Someone has to know something.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 11: She has children, she has a small child, and she

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Speaker 11: deserves to have her mom in her life.

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Speaker 2: To doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist joining us out of

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Speaker 2: the Atlanta jurisdiction, you can find her at Angela Arnold

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Speaker 2: MD dot com, dottor Angie.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: And once again, when the family approaches local police to

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Speaker 2: tell them Dana is missing, they say she is a

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Speaker 2: grown woman.

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Speaker 3: She can go away for a night without calling her mother.

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Speaker 3: Why why and why.

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Speaker 12: I mean, Nancy, can't these people watch your show and

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Speaker 12: learn something right.

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Speaker 2: I don't know the answer to that, but I do

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Speaker 2: know that screwed this whole thing up?

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Speaker 6: Sure?

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Speaker 12: And can you imagine all the other things that it's

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Speaker 12: screwed up. It's just it's such an excuse and it's

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Speaker 12: not the way these things should be handled. Because, as

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Speaker 12: we have talked about time and time again on your show,

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Speaker 12: people have patterns of behavior. So if someone goes against

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Speaker 12: that pattern of behavior, then other people know it's a

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Speaker 12: problem that she's missing, and they want help as fast

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Speaker 12: as possible, and they should be able to get that help.

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Speaker 2: Patterns of behavior, patterns of behavior. Her mother and sister

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Speaker 2: go to police and they're told.

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Speaker 3: Hey, she's a grown woman.

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Speaker 2: Why don't they always say this, Cheryl? They say some

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Speaker 2: you know, derivative of she's probably off with her new boyfriend.

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Speaker 3: We I mean, stop a family.

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Speaker 4: When you look at she left behind medication that she

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Speaker 4: takes every day, She left behind her keys, she had

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Speaker 4: no money, she didn't take a wallet, she didn't take

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Speaker 4: a call, she didn't take a train to close, and

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Speaker 4: she left behind her seven year old. Those are patterns

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Speaker 4: you can't ignore.

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Speaker 10: This is not somebody that just took a powder. Is

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Speaker 10: it somebody that just wanted to start.

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Speaker 9: A new life.

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Speaker 4: That is almost never decay and we.

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Speaker 2: Have another let's just say monkey wrench in the works.

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Speaker 2: To Joe Scott Morgan, Professor, friends and death investigator, we

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Speaker 2: can't get a co D cause of death. I could

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Speaker 2: listen to our cut four or five six wn EP.

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Speaker 13: The coroner has identified the skeletal remains found last week

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Speaker 13: in the Poconawa's officials say the remains are that of

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Speaker 13: Dina Smithers from Strasbourg, who went missing last May. The

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Speaker 13: forty five year old woman was last seen on surveillance

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Speaker 13: video leaving a friend's home. As search at the time

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Speaker 13: came up empty, but last week, a decomposed body was

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Speaker 13: found in a wooded area of Stroudsburg near the on

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Speaker 13: ramp to Interstate eighty. The Monroe County Corner says more

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Speaker 13: tests needed to determine how Smithers died.

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Speaker 2: And one more thing, Joe Scott Morgan take a listen

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Speaker 2: to our forensic crime online dot com.

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Speaker 7: In four five three, Danis Smithers remains were discovered by

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Speaker 7: a Stroldberg Borough employee in a wooded area near the

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Speaker 7: Interstate eighty east on off ramp at Park Avenue. A

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Speaker 7: forensic odentologist helped confirm the identity of the badly decomposed

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Speaker 7: body using dental records, and autopsy has been conducted, but

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Speaker 7: results are pending further testing.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I don't mean this in a personal way at all,

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Speaker 2: but I don't put a lot of stock in forensic idontology,

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Speaker 2: in other words, identifying a defendant by his bite mark

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Speaker 2: on a person's body, because Joe Scott, the flesh, human

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Speaker 2: flesh is movable and pliant. It's like biting into jello

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Speaker 2: and claiming, Hey, I can see a bite mark that

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Speaker 2: I can now convict somebody with. No unless you've got

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Speaker 2: a really identifiable bite mark. Like remember Ted Bundy had

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Speaker 2: this weird tooth. If you look at the bite mark,

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Speaker 2: it looks like it's coming from the eye tooth on

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Speaker 2: the right side of his mouth, right beside his front

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Speaker 2: teeth on the right it just kind of sticks out,

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Speaker 2: you know, like people have that weird.

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Speaker 3: Little toe that sticks out on the side.

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Speaker 2: No offense, Jackie, But I mean that's very identifiable. So

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Speaker 2: I don't put a lot of stock in trying to

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Speaker 2: convict somebody on foray odontology. But in this case, we're

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Speaker 2: not just talking about a bite mark. We're not talking

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Speaker 2: about a bite Mark. We're talking about identifying her on

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Speaker 2: her dental records, not some unusual tooth configuration.

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Speaker 3: Explain.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, odentology as it applies to bite Mark is more

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Speaker 5: art than it is science. It's highly subjective, that's nicely put.

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Speaker 5: But however, when it comes to identifying bodies, it is

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Speaker 5: still very reliable because you know, we we go through

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Speaker 5: stages with our teeth throughout our lives where we have fillings,

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Speaker 5: we have restorations, we have extractions, we have rotations in

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Speaker 5: our teeth, replacements, bridges, caps, all those sorts of things

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Speaker 5: that make us uniquely identifiable through our identici. So in

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Speaker 5: that sense it is still highly reliable. I would have

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Speaker 5: thought that probably their fallback position would have been to

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Speaker 5: harvest DNA potentially from a tooth. They still had viable

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Speaker 5: biological sample in order to do that. But I got

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Speaker 5: to tell you, Nancy, what I'm truly interested in in

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Speaker 5: this case is going to be, you know, the big

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Speaker 5: mystery here cod cause of death. When we think about Coburger,

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Speaker 5: and we've been talking about him relative to this, we

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Speaker 5: know for a fact what the cause of deaths were

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Speaker 5: relative to those force souls out in Idaho, and it

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Speaker 5: was sharp forced injury that sometimes it's very difficult to

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Speaker 5: determine a relative to decomposed bodies. They have to they

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Speaker 5: have to go an extra mile for this, and what

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Speaker 5: I just break it down.

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Speaker 3: Please, you're making my head heart.

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Speaker 5: Oh, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 3: When a body you're not sorry, I know you. Hold on.

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Speaker 2: Let me put it in a nutshell. You've got a

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Speaker 2: decomposed body. You can't determine cod if it's a knife wound,

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Speaker 2: and you want to compare method of death to the four.

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Speaker 3: Victims in Idaho. You're looking for a knife wound.

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Speaker 2: The only way you're going to find it on a

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Speaker 2: badly decomposed body is if the knife nicked a bone.

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Speaker 5: Well, that all depends on how far down the road

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Speaker 5: it is. As far as decomposition. You can still appreciate

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Speaker 5: knife wounds even a month down range. And from what

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Speaker 5: I'm what I'm hearing, that's the neighborhood we're in. But

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Speaker 5: obviously they didn't see that. They haven't released that information.

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Speaker 5: It's difficult. If this will say, an asphyxial death, that

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Speaker 5: can be kind of difficult to do. Gunshot wound would

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Speaker 5: be kind of evident, particularly if it was to the head.

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Speaker 5: There's a lot of evidence here because.

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Speaker 3: The bullet would go through the bank, well.

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Speaker 5: Through the ball, through the skull. Perhaps, yeah, you find

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Speaker 5: the bullet, yeah, and hopefully hopefully out there, Nancy, they

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Speaker 5: would have gone around the body with a metal detector

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Speaker 5: to Hopefully they didn't just look down and say, okay,

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Speaker 5: we've got a decomposed body. It's adjacent to a highway.

437
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 5: Maybe it's just a homeless person that was camping out.

438
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,719
Speaker 5: Hopefully that's not the tact that they took. I'm hoping

439
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 5: that they went out there and did grid search relative

440
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 5: to a metal detector to look and see if there

441
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 5: were any popped off rounds out there, any kind of

442
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 5: projectiles or spent brass that was left behind. Methodology here though,

443
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 5: is going to be key, I think, and also any

444
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 5: kind of videography relative to you guessed at this car

445
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 5: a hunday, perhaps how long how long had it been

446
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 5: did they capture all the CCT stuff, because it's not

447
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 5: like this was done in isolation out in farm farm country.

448
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 5: You know, Chris had mentioned that this is adjacent to

449
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 5: an interstate, this is a dump site, and he's right

450
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 5: on the money with that this is in fact a

451
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 5: dump site, not a lot of care was taken here.

452
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 5: No effort apparently was taken to bury a body here,

453
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 5: which you know that takes time and it takes tools.

454
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 5: There's no indication of that this is a surface recovery

455
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:25,880
Speaker 5: that they have out there.

456
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: Hey, Nancy, Yeah, I want to clarify something, Dave Matt

457
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, wasn't Dennis Smithers's.

458
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 3: Body found more like a year later, not a month later.

459
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 6: It was a year later. She went missing. Last time

460
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 6: she was seen April twenty eighth and a year ago,

461
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 6: and then she was just recovered.

462
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 3: Okay, Cheryl McCollum jump in.

463
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 4: I was just going to say, depending on the weather

464
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 4: and things like that, her clothing could still be somewhat intact,

465
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 4: and her shirt could have you know, shown potential stuff.

466
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,199
Speaker 4: For sure, it would have injuries indicatively about it. You know.

467
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 2: Another issue that we keep hearing is that they're different

468
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 2: mos this was this occurred outdoors. We don't know that

469
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 2: Dana Smothers was killed outdoors. We believe this could have

470
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 2: been a dump.

471
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: Side time stories with Nancy Grace, I'm trying to.

472
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 3: Make comparisons and also distinguish.

473
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 2: Dana Smithers' death from the Idaho Students' murders.

474
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 3: So we're looking very carefully.

475
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 2: At the mos We don't know Smithers was killed outside. Again,

476
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 2: that was most likely a dump site. She may have

477
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 2: been killed inside at what structure, maybe the hotel that

478
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: we hear Chris mcdonna describe speaking of similarities, What about it, Chris.

479
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 6: You know, Nancy. One other thing to consider also, just

480
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 6: to kind of jump hill on all the conversations, here

481
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 6: is right where this body is found, there is a

482
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 6: bank right next door, and if you look closely on

483
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 6: Google Earth, you can see what appears to be two

484
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 6: exterior video cameras, and then across the street is a

485
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 6: Sneco gas station, and then we have the hotel. So

486
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 6: to Scott's point earlier in Cheryl's, those are solid points

487
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 6: because thus the suspect, this individual wants to lower their risk.

488
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 6: If we talk about Coberger, because he just graduated hypothetically

489
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 6: with this degree in technology, and he went through so

490
00:29:54,800 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 6: many steps in the Idaho case, if it's him to

491
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 6: cover that track, it would really be a character for

492
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 6: him to kind of, you know, just go to this

493
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 6: step where you know he kills this individual at a

494
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 6: different location, which is one crime scene, then moves it

495
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 6: to a secondary crime scene, the body and dumps her

496
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 6: over the railing here just before he gets onto the freeway, hypothetically.

497
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 6: So I don't know if this is fitting him as

498
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 6: much as the behavior that we already know about and

499
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 6: it's in evidence, and this behavior that we're seeing here

500
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 6: with that hotel across the street. In my mind, it

501
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 6: opens up a variety of other options.

502
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 2: Okay, one thing, I want to know if this changes

503
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 2: anyone's opinion, Everybody jump in, not just Joe Scott Morgan,

504
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 2: although you did bring it up, Joe Scott, the time

505
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 2: of discovery of Dennis Smithers was a year later, not

506
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: a month later. Does that change your opinion regarding the

507
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 2: degree of composition of her body?

508
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it does, And I misspoke. She would be

509
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 5: in an advanced state of decomposition and so there would

510
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 5: be little or no soft tissue left exactly.

511
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,239
Speaker 2: So the dental records are a must unless you want

512
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: to extract DNA from you know, ali nuclei have.

513
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 3: A hair or the tooth, or as Cheryl.

514
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: Pointed out, we may be able to get something off

515
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 2: the clothing. I don't know it's been out. The body

516
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 2: and the clothing have been outside for so long, I'd

517
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: be curious.

518
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 3: Is she still clothed or was she unclothed.

519
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 2: We're trying to also establish where was Coburger on the

520
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 2: day she goes missing May twenty eight. Everybody jump in

521
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 2: with your knowledge. Okay, I need everybody we know. Jackie

522
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: pulled up his actual graduation program and he got his

523
00:31:55,360 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: major in criminology, not IT or tech, but monology. He

524
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 2: steeped in criminal behavior. He graduated May twenty one, twenty

525
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 2: twenty two at Dessales. Okay, then he goes across the

526
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 2: country to Washington State University and ultimately to Idaho. Now,

527
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: had he already left by May twenty eight to go

528
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 2: stake out a new apartment or even move to Washington

529
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 2: State University? He was already admitted, but his classes there

530
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 2: did not start until August. So what is his so

531
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 2: called air tight alibi? Also regarding m yes, we look

532
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 2: for the same fingerprint type of murder. But I mean,

533
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 2: let's look at Ted Bundy, Okay, because the comparisons which

534
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 2: you can see on our new investigation on Fox Nation,

535
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 2: parallels of evil between Bundy and and Coburger to surviving

536
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 2: female victims.

537
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 3: Speak to us.

538
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: We believe Bundy had at least three surviving victims. We

539
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 2: know that it was in a college town and a

540
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 2: structure of a house as opposed to an apartment or

541
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: a high rise. The use of violent force female victims

542
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 2: in the dark of night. I mean, my list of

543
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: comparisons goes on and on and on. Stalking both getting

544
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 2: their grad degree, just always thinking are smarter than everybody else.

545
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 2: Coburger and Bundy both notorious for that. But for the

546
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 2: purposes of our conversations today, Ted Bundy murdered people in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Utah, Colorado.

547
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 2: So the disparate murder scenes do not concern me at all.

548
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 2: With Coleburger Pennsylvania, He's found in this same county where

549
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 2: his parents live before he moves to Washington State, That's

550
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 2: not a concern at all. Take a listen to our

551
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 2: cup four five seven regarding Ted Bundy's emo.

552
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 8: Serial killer Ted Bundy admitted to killing more than thirty

553
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 8: young women and girls in a cross country spree that

554
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 8: spanned four years. That number is thought to be higher.

555
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 8: Bundy's victims came from several states, Washington, Colorado, Utah, Oregon, Florida, Idaho,

556
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 8: and California. It's not known when Bundy began committing crimes,

557
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 8: but Karen Sparks of Washington was brutally beaten and sexually

558
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:46,280
Speaker 8: assaulted with a metal rod in nineteen seventy four. That year,

559
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 8: about one woman a month disappeared, many were college students.

560
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 8: In August nineteen seventy four, Bundy attended the University of

561
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 8: Utah Law School, and a number of the murders happened

562
00:34:58,000 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 8: around that time.

563
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 2: And it brings to mind another serial killer, Israel Keys,

564
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 2: who murdered people all across the country. He actually kept

565
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 2: kill kits hidden across the country that he could use

566
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 2: to commit murders and hide evidence. Take ust in our

567
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 2: cut sixteen our friends at ABC.

568
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 14: Key's traveled the country from Alaska to Vermont, looking for

569
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 14: people to kill totally at random, and funding his crimes

570
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 14: by robbing banks. The FBI has now retraced his steps

571
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 14: a long list of dates and locations since two thousand

572
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 14: and one, when they believe he may have killed repeatedly.

573
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 14: They so far have eight confirmed murders and rapes, including

574
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 14: a couple in Essex, Vermont. Four others in Washington State,

575
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 14: and one more on the East coast, with the body

576
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 14: hidden in New York.

577
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 2: Israel Ky's got on my radar when he kidnapped and

578
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 2: murdered a young Alaskan barista, Samantha Koenig, by forcing her

579
00:35:55,640 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 2: out of her coffee stand and sex is her brutally,

580
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 2: and then murdering her after a failed ransom attempt. Take

581
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: a listener cut eighteen from Investigation Discovery Dark Minds.

582
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 15: His usual system was to travel far away from his home,

583
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 15: use cash to turn his phone off, leave no record

584
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 15: of his presence, and usually a small town where no

585
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 15: one knew him, to abduct, kill, and then to leave

586
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 15: to be hundreds of miles away from the scene by

587
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 15: the time that local authorities even knew that anyone was missing.

588
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 16: The Courier murders Keys flew from Anchorage to Chicago, then

589
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 16: drove a rental car a thousand miles to Vermont. After

590
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,439
Speaker 16: killing them, he drove another few hundred miles to dump

591
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 16: the murder weapon in a lake. Then he backtracked to

592
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 16: Chicago and flew home to Alaska.

593
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 2: I chose that sound for a significant reason, and that

594
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 2: is Coburger studied these serial killers and years of saturating

595
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 2: himself and the criminal minds of killers, of serial killers

596
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 2: like Bundy, like Israel Keys. So committing a murder in

597
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 2: one jurisdiction and then going two thousand miles like Israel

598
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 2: Keys did to Washington State would not surprise me at all.

599
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 2: Think about it, Cheryl McCollum anty.

600
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 4: Not only did he study it, he seemed to mimic

601
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 4: at least some of what we're you know, witnessing. Where

602
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 4: he might have waited until he got to you know,

603
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 4: his new home in Washington State to commit the murders

604
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 4: in Idaho. We know he also, you know, had a

605
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:50,240
Speaker 4: potential chance to really study Bundy. He followed Bundy Washington State,

606
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 4: then Idaho.

607
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:52,879
Speaker 9: That's something we know Bundy did.

608
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 4: We know Israel Keys study Bundy. We know that he

609
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 4: had access to, you know, get to the point of

610
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 4: having a pH d. That not only did he study

611
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 4: these folks, he went as far as to have the

612
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 4: questionnaire about what it felt like, how did you choose

613
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,879
Speaker 4: a victim? How did you you know, drive away? All

614
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 4: of those things. He's he's getting ready. It seems like

615
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 4: he's preparing and has knowledge on a much different level

616
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,959
Speaker 4: than most people would even in a PhD program. He's

617
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 4: studying something very specific. So you know, choosing your victim,

618
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 4: how did it make you feel and how did you

619
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 4: get away?

620
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 2: And to you Justicin's got Morgan, Professor Forensics at Jacksonville

621
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 2: State University, Death Investigator. I agree with what Cheryl just

622
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:41,879
Speaker 2: said and I want to point out that Coburger. We

623
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 2: know that Brian Coburger knew to travel to cover his tracks.

624
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: Remember the night of the murders, he drove a long, winding,

625
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 2: circuitous route. I know because I drove the exact route

626
00:38:55,600 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 2: at night when he could have just driven not minutes

627
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 2: to his home in a pullman, he drove all the

628
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 2: way around and it's dark, there's nobody there. You go

629
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,800
Speaker 2: for you know, twenty minutes without seeing a single light.

630
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 2: He chose to do that to you know, distance himself

631
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 2: from the murder scene. So we know that he is

632
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 2: again steeped in the study of serial killers.

633
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,280
Speaker 5: Is and you know the infamous loop that you mentioned

634
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 5: where CCTV, you know, images were captured and again we

635
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,320
Speaker 5: go back to the Hyundai that is part and parcel

636
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 5: of what they do. You know, you even go back

637
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 5: to Sam Little, the infamous serial killer who traveled all

638
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 5: over the country, Nancy, as you well know, to avoid.

639
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,720
Speaker 5: And it seems counterintuitive because a lot of these people,

640
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 5: when you hear about them, you know, they always say,

641
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 5: you know, the kind of the rote statement is always

642
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 5: they hunt in the areas that they know best, you know,

643
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 5: And that's kind of a Hollywood thing that's thrown out there.

644
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 5: And many of them do, but many of them don't either.

645
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 5: You can't apply that logic to every single case. Again,

646
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 5: I go back to this is.

647
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 3: An area that with which he was familiar.

648
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was an area that that he was very

649
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 5: familiar with. And so but you know, we begin to

650
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,919
Speaker 5: think about, you know, Idaho and out when he got

651
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 5: this appointment to wazoo out there, how familiar was he

652
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 5: with that area? Well, you got his phone pinging all

653
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 5: over the place, you know, prior to that. And let

654
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 5: me tell you one more thing. If he's a PhD student,

655
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,320
Speaker 5: he's he's in his first semester out there. It needsy

656
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 5: when you're a PhD student, it's like being in an

657
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 5: indentured servitude state. How in the world he had time

658
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 5: to go and leave that campus and then cruise around

659
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 5: another university. It doesn't it doesn't go to this idea

660
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 5: of this kind of scholarly pursuit where you kind of

661
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 5: live this monacre stick existence, particularly first semester, because all

662
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 5: eyes are on you. So what's the focus here? The

663
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:12,720
Speaker 5: focus is perhaps perhaps to target somebody, to target multiple people,

664
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 5: to learn how they live, where they live, what are

665
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 5: their activities going forward, and to begin to understand them,

666
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:19,959
Speaker 5: particularly if you're a hunter.

667
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:24,399
Speaker 2: Well put very well put out Tara Malick joining us

668
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: high profile lawyer out of the Idaho jurisdiction at Smith

669
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 2: and Malick. Tara, let's just get right down to it.

670
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 2: My interest as it stands right now in the Dennis

671
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 2: Smithers case, of course I want to find her killer

672
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 2: if in fact.

673
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 3: She was a murder.

674
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 2: Of course, that goes about saying, but how it relates

675
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 2: to Brian Coburger. What is the law on the use

676
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: of similar transactions in Idaho as it relates to a

677
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:53,240
Speaker 2: murder trial.

678
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 9: Well, there's a four H four B rule, which is

679
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 9: other wrong crimes and acts, and with advance notice, the

680
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:03,840
Speaker 9: state can file what's called a four O four bmotion

681
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 9: and say judge, we've got we've got evidence of you know,

682
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 9: a similar act or crime and they'll try and bring

683
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 9: this information. But depending on how this grand jury testimony

684
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 9: goes by the parents and what the grand jury finds,

685
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 9: I would expect to see emotion by the state to

686
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 9: introduce some of that evidence in and show similarities in

687
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 9: show patterns. I mean, the state here is going to

688
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 9: try and show that this was not you know, nothing

689
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 9: about what Coburger did was a mistake. You know that

690
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 9: perhaps with this woman, and we don't know enough yet,

691
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 9: there may be evidence that he was hunting her. I mean,

692
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 9: certainly she's close enough to his parents geographically that it

693
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 9: would be possible. The other thing that came to mind,

694
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 9: you know, and I had to go back and check

695
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 9: dates on this, but Coberger was shopping for knives as

696
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 9: of April twenty twenty two online on Amazon.

697
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 6: You know.

698
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 9: The timing as well with this woman disappearing May twenty

699
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 9: eighth is also another piece that's curious to me and

700
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 9: certainly suspect.

701
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 12: Here.

702
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: Let's hypothesize, and again this is hypothetical. If Danis Smithers

703
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 2: was killed by Brian Coburger, there's one way that his

704
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 2: defense lawyer, a tailor, could keep that evidence out of

705
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 2: the Idaho trial, and that is by filing a speedy

706
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 2: demand for trial under the constitution, he's got to get

707
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 2: a speedy trial if he sticks with a demand. There's

708
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 2: no way that they're going to get the evidence together

709
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 2: in the Dana Smithers investigation in time to beat that

710
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: speedy trial demand. And as of right now, we believe

711
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,240
Speaker 2: the defense is sticking with a speedy child demand.

712
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 3: It's unclear.

713
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 2: One last question to doctor Angela Arnold the stress of

714
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 2: starting a PhD program, the stress of moving. Does high

715
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 2: stress intensify a killer's desire to strike?

716
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 12: You know, Nancy, I think we have to question whether

717
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 12: he was stressed. I think this was a plan on

718
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 12: his part to go out there and study. And I

719
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 12: believe he was hiding behind the PhD program. And he

720
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 12: was so arrogant and self assured that he didn't feel

721
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 12: like he had to be in class. He could remember

722
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 12: he got very high reviews to go to this program.

723
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 12: People thought very highly of him. He was hiding behind

724
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,879
Speaker 12: this PhD program, and I don't believe he was stressed

725
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 12: by the actual PhD program.

726
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 3: Wait as Justice and false Goodbye friend,