WEBVTT - Part One: Robert E. Lee: A Lifetime of Failure 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:10.840 Media. What mourning my Carl Weathers. This is Behind the Bastards, 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:15.400 a podcast where me and my friend Jason Petty aka 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:19.000 Prop are huge fans of the recently deceased Carl Weathers 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:22.960 prop Man exactly. Yeah, he was a fucking real one. 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:24.400 What was your favorite Carl Weathers? 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:26.600 You like you have. 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:28.240 To like pick a decade, you know what I'm saying, 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:30.560 Like that's the hard part with him. You know that 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:32.960 man had a fucking career because I mean obviously like 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:41.640 Happy Gilmore. Yeah, absolutely, it's in the pantheon screen. Yeah, yeah, 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:43.839 like that's in the pantheon. Like you can't, Yeah, you 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:46.360 can't pick a character, you know, just so important. 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:49.080 I think Happy Gilmore it was like my favorite movie 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:51.360 as a kid, Like we would paint Warhammer minies and 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:53.280 watch it every I probably saw the movie two hundred 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.319 times and yeah, he just and then fucking Predator too, and. 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:01.440 Rocky Rocky Creditor like the big old like twenty inch 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:06.920 pythons and like like looking huge, crazy dude. 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:08.280 I mean, rest in peace are real? 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:11.520 On this second day of Black History Month, matter of fact, 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:15.920 happy Black History Month. Yes, and I'll trade if I 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:19.479 could speak for the black delegation, Like I'll trade Tim 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:23.880 Scott for a let's say simply Red. 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:26.199 We're gonna call simply Red black for this month. 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:30.040 Okay, we're gonna call him black cause like we're gonna 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:32.200 call him black. Yeah, We're gonna we're gonna call him 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:34.280 black for this month. Like that that white boy has 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:34.720 some soul. 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:35.600 Wow. 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:42.800 Okay, hold and that there's no way that man ain't black. 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:44.920 We'll send out, we'll send out a letter. We'll send 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:48.560 out send it to Manchester. You know who definitely isn't black. 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:51.760 Prop Oh boy, Uh. 0:01:52.040 --> 0:02:00.160 Terrible, take hibout, bro take about I'm saying in four seasons, 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:03.840 this is yeah, like this might be this this, this 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:07.080 might be a top five top five transition. 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:08.079 Yeah we are. 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:10.840 We are doing finally the Robert E. 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:12.240 Lee episodes. 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:17.040 Yeah, which, like you know, growing up in the South 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:19.000 as I did, I'm a Texan boy, right. I think 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:21.120 that people are broadly aware of that there were like 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:25.560 three heroes who were like the canonical three male heroes 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:29.800 because everybody loves Dolly Parton and Dolly's Dolly's Dollies gym, 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:32.720 Yeah exactly, But there were there were three men that 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:36.000 were like the holy Trinity of like Southern masculinity. When 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:38.800 I was a kid, there was Dale Earnhardt, Samuel Houston, 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:39.519 and Robert E. 0:02:39.600 --> 0:02:44.360 Lee. Samuel who Samuel Houston, he's the founder, George Jackson. 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:47.000 I mean, I. 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:51.359 Was not prepared for I. 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:55.639 Wouldn't call him like an arcana Southern masculinity though, And honestly, 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:58.079 of those three, Dale Earnhardt is the only one who 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:00.800 was actually a decent person. Right, that's brought people are 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:03.880 broadly aware of that. Now, Robert E. Lee was a 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:05.919 deep at least the kind of people who listened to 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:09.000 this podcast, was not a great man, But there's still 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:11.280 this kind of attitude that like, well, yeah, he was 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:14.240 obviously fighting for an evil side, and so that says 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:17.040 bad things about him. But he was a really good general. 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:22.440 He was a great commander, and for visionist history, we 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.320 will be talking about what he was good at and 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:28.600 what he was bad at in these episodes, and we 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:30.640 will also be talking about, in addition to his life, 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:33.120 kind of the ways in which his life has been 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:37.320 distorted and deranged by the kind of media that's come 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:39.560 out in the century and a half since the. 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:40.440 First Civil War. 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:43.720 Right, Yeah, and obviously you know you'll be doing an 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:46.320 episode in our second week of these about the Lost 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:49.280 Cause mythology and how that took off. I'm going to 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:52.560 sprinkle a little bit of that in here, because, for 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.560 one thing, Roberty Lee is kind of like on his own. 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.280 He's not like Saddam Hussein. He's not threatening his high 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:00.280 school teacher with a handgun to teach him how to 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:03.200 read right. He's he is kind of the slight goodie 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:05.240 two shoes. So in order to keep it interesting, we 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:07.120 do need a kind of pepper in some of the 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:09.960 deranged things people have said about him, since that really 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:12.880 exaggerates his legacy. And a good example of this, a 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:15.880 modern example of this is the book Who Was Robert E. 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:16.279 Lee? 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.880 By Bonnie Bader. Now you have seen books in the 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:22.520 Who Was? Series? These are these kids books where everybody 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:25.200 has a huge head, right, It'll be some yeah, like 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:26.440 massive head. 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:30.479 Yeah he had, Yeah. 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:32.160 Yeah, he's got one of those. And they're not from 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:34.760 what I can tell, they're not on the whole super problematic. 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:37.840 And I will say this one is not fully lost 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:41.359 cause it's more that it like absorbs some Lost Cause 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:44.279 stuff in the middle of like it's trying to be fair, 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:47.040 but it yeah, it's almost impossible unless you're actually being 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:49.360 a rigorous historian to not absorb some of that because 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:52.040 there's so much. I'm not saying that to like forgive 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:54.279 these people for doing it. But it's not like a 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.599 it's not like a pro Confederacy book, right. Yeah, the 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:00.040 cover of this is very funny that all of the 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:01.080 the covers of these are unhindered. 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:03.320 I don't know why they give It's like everybody does. 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.520 Like the Golden Eye big head sheet for the people 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:07.560 on these books, yuh yeah, like. 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:10.599 When we got the Rosa Barks one for our daughter, like, yeah, 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:12.719 we had a fend of those. I will say this though, 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:16.280 speaking to speaking to like you know, obviously like as 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:20.440 far as like American bastards like Robert E. Lee's he's 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.720 on our rushmore, Like yeah, you can't not take him 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:26.720 off the Rushmore. But to add to his mystique, like 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:30.200 I can even say me as who again, listeners are 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:32.080 not I say it all the time. You know, I'm 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:35.800 a child of a freedom fighter or you know, black militant. 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:41.240 I'm the child of one. But kudos to him, because 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:43.360 the first time I heard of the General Lee was 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:47.640 Dukes of Hazard. Yeah, and I loved the show, and 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:49.800 I had the little I had a little General Lee 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.240 hot wheels with the Confederate flag on top and shout 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:55.920 out my dad for not ruining my innocence, yeah, and 0:05:56.000 --> 0:06:00.480 letting me love this thing, having no idea. Are not 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:03.200 connecting the dots, you know what I'm saying. Why was 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:05.920 you know I'm saying, but like, I didn't connect the dots. 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:08.200 I thought it was cool seeing the car jump over 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:10.800 to you know, in the stupid eighties show they jump 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:12.800 over the ditches and yeah, the show. 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:14.599 I watched that show as a kid, right, And I 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.119 watched the I watched the reboot movie, which wasn't great, 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:21.920 and that probably I was like part of the Lost 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:25.200 Cause stuff, right, Yeah, But these like who Was books 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:27.000 that one of the things that's interesting about me is 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:29.479 the kind of dichotomy between the bits of Lost Cause 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:31.200 shit in there and the stuff that is trying to 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:34.560 be like accurate history. Like, for example, there's this paragraph 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:38.320 about the plantation system in the book that's like not bad, right, 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:41.680 and this appears this this is like a little box 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:43.360 that they put in when they say that, like the 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.440 Lee family had a plantation, it's like a plantation life 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:48.800 rich white people in the South lived on big farms 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:52.000 called plantations, where crops such as cotton and tobacco were grown. 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:54.600 Most of the workers on these plantations were slaves who 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.080 were either born in Africa or descended from people taken 0:06:57.120 --> 0:06:59.320 from there. These slaves were forced to work for free 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:01.800 from sun up to sundown. The slaves had no rights, 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:05.080 and the plantation owners grew rich. And that's like, not bad. 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:06.880 That's a pretty good way to explain that to a kid. 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:09.760 I think those are yeah, bullet points. That is correct, 0:07:09.760 --> 0:07:13.360 that's the important stuff. Yet, here's how the book summarizes 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:16.920 Lee's decision to fight for the Confederacy and fight for slavery. 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.200 When asked to lead Northern troops against the South, Robert E. 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:22.240 Lee was even more torn. How could he go to 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:24.840 war against his friends and family who lived in Virginia. 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:27.320 It was a hard choice. Robert thought about loyalty, he 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.640 thought about honor. In the end, Robert decided to fight 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:32.560 against the country that his forefathers helped to create. For Robert, 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:35.160 the most important thing was his family and his home, Virginia. 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:40.680 And that is bullshit. And yeah, we will talk. We 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:42.600 will be in the episode where we get to this. 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:44.200 We will talk more about that, but like, just as 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:46.760 a quick aside, he had multiple family members who fought 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:49.080 for the union, So like, no, it wasn't just a. 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:51.200 Matter of not wanting to fight his family, right, not 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:54.160 at all, because he did. He objectively did. 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:54.680 Yeah. 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:57.600 That said, this is a good example of like the 0:07:57.640 --> 0:07:59.720 milder and kind of the more modern side of the 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:01.400 pro lead spectrum. 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:02.160 Right, this is a. 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:04.960 Casual absorption of the of the lost Cause narratives as 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:07.239 opposed to a dedicated one. And I think it's interesting 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:09.440 to kind of look at that in addition to somebody 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:10.840 older and harder stuff. 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:14.000 Right, Yeah, I think I'm gonna, like, I'll when we 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:16.320 do the lost Cause thing, I'll probably hit this point hard. 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:19.720 But I think it's important too because it keeps coming 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:23.600 back like that, the difference between and the importance of 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.200 the difference between history and memory. 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:28.120 Yeah, and like and. 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:32.520 That memory is really more about the future and history 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:36.040 is more about the past, because I like, memory is malleable, 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:39.240 Like you can shape that memory shape's identity. It forms culture, 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:42.080 it you know what I'm saying. It, It creates narrative. 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:46.480 That's what memory does. Whereas history is the factual truth 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:50.560 of what happened, which for most of us, even now, 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.800 for most of us is rarely The point is like 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:58.480 what actually happened. It's our memory of what happened, and 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:00.440 how that shapes how I view the world world now. 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.120 And I think that he's a perfect example of that 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:05.360 in choosing to remember him a certain way. 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.240 And it's it's interesting. I think that that that dichotomy 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:12.080 between like reality and memory is especially harsh when it 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:14.240 comes to war. And I can think of a modern 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:15.960 example this from my own life. I have a couple 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:18.480 of friends who served in a marine unit in the 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:20.520 early invasion of Iraq, and I've gotten to spend some 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.120 time both with them and some o their like like 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.240 gatherings of their old unit. And one of the interesting 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:29.920 things is hearing different people tell stories about the same 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:32.000 event and then talking to others about them be like, 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.079 that is not what happened. That is apps and they 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:36.440 were all there right like that, and they have some 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:39.480 people have convinced themselves of and who knows how much 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:41.439 of it is like wanting to believe that you did 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:42.920 better than you did. Who knows how much of it 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.400 is just honestly like it's a chaotic situation, like your 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:49.160 memory gets fucked up. Trauma fucks up memory. Like, yeah, 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:51.640 it's it's super malleable. So when you get to the 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.680 history of warfare, right, Like, just even just because something 0:09:55.720 --> 0:10:00.240 is an eyewitness account doesn't mean it's fucking true. Yeah, 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:02.319 that's just the reality of the situation. But to get 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:04.440 to the truth of who Robert E. Lee was and 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:06.360 why he did what he did, we have to start 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.480 a lot further back than his own life, back in fact, 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:13.120 to the earliest Les in the historical record. Now, the 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:16.079 precise reality of his genealogy pasted a certain point is 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:19.000 up for questioning, right, given the state of record keeping. Yeah, 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:20.920 you should interpret what I'm saying is not like this 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.920 is the objective genealogical truth, but this is the family 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:26.040 lore that he was raised with, Right, So this was 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:28.680 the truth for him, which is what matters for how 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:31.880 his background affected him more than the reality of it, right. 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:32.160 Yeah. 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:35.120 And the family lore of the Lees traces their line 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:38.920 back to the Norman conquest of England. The founder of 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:43.120 the family, according to legend, was Lncelot Lee from l Dune, France. 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:46.240 He marched into England with William the Conqueror and earned 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:48.400 a name for himself in the Battle of Hastings in 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:52.079 ten sixty six. Right that that is the origin of 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:53.800 the Lee family and family lore. 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:56.760 Right, wow, as they know it. That like they formed 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:00.640 modern England. Yes, yes, that's wow, that's quite and also 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:05.240 claim from the beginning military men and aristocratic military men. 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.360 Right that is that is a high social status. And 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:11.120 his descendants have continued up to the present day. There 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:13.800 have been les in modern wars, right, descendants of his 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:16.920 family and serving at a pretty high rate. So that 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:19.520 is I think probably a mix of both the weight 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:22.440 of legacy and just like yes, some people are naturally 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:25.480 inclined to be warriors, right, Like that's just a reality 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:27.480 of history, you know. Yeah, like if all of your 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:31.079 ancestors served in various militaries, it probably means like you're 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:34.640 drawn to that kind of thing inherently. Yeah, like yeah, 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:37.680 a good bit of like nature and nurture, like you know, 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.480 that's just like I said, how this is this is 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:42.520 how we form identity. This is what the men in 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.680 our family do they yes, yes, they are violent and 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:48.240 this is this is a consistent thing for the LEAs 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:52.480 generations after Hastings and eleven ninety two, his ancestor Lional 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.480 Lee was a cavalryman in the Third Crusade, which. 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:56.880 Sh ended well, I think right. 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:00.960 One of the things about the Lee is that, firstly, 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:03.360 who picked the Norman side is like the best of 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:04.959 them at deciding what side. 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:12.040 They're pretty much yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe two maybe two. 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:13.800 Well, well we'll talk about it the other world. Yeah. 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:14.000 OK. 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:18.040 Centuries of service though to the crown and expanding wealth 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:21.080 eventually kind of culminates in Sir Henry Lee. And he 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:23.480 is a Knight of the Garter under Queen Elizabeth. But 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.240 he's also a young son, so he's not going to 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:28.360 inherit any of the family money. If you know anything 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:31.960 about the colonization of the Americas, a lot of it 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:34.440 was done by like second third fourth, a lot of 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:38.080 like the leadership right would have been these these second third, fourth, 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:41.280 fifth whatever sons of wealthy families who like, I'm not 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:45.000 going to get anything unless I go take part in this. Right, 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:47.680 my family name can secure me a position, but like, 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:48.640 I'm not going to. 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:49.320 Inherit, you know. 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:51.959 Yeah, And that's what Sir Henry Lee does, and that's 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:53.960 why he winds up moving to America to be the 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:58.760 Colonial Secretary of the Virginia Colony under Governor William Berkeley. 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:00.559 One of my. 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.480 Sources for this is the very dishonestly named memoir of 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:05.720 Robert E. Lee, which is like it's build as his 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:09.240 autobiography that he never finished, so like other people put 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:12.440 it together based on interviews and notes, it's a biography. 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:16.480 It's a very cloying positive biography. But they call it 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:19.600 a memoir, which should let you know how reputable it is. 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:22.360 But it's interesting how it describes some things. And this 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:25.319 is how it describes Sir Henry Lee, the first Americanly 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.160 he was possessed of a handsome person, fine talents, and 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.199 popular manners, and by these qualities was enabled to secure 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:37.440 influence over the colonists. Now, when I say influence, what 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:41.680 that means is like the Virginia Colony is a corporate monopoly, right, 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:45.000 it is a corporation, and it is it is a 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:48.280 dangerous thing, like going there, you don't have a high 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:50.840 odds of surviving. About sixty five percent of immigrants to 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:52.880 the colony in the period that he came over died 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:56.240 soon after moving there, So this is a dangerous gig. 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:00.000 I'd also say too, like you know, to interrupt your 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:04.320 real quick is like, yeah, the the like telling of 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:07.320 it's it's man, it's just it keeps coming up. But 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:10.479 like the telling of even just the founding of America 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:14.559 that these it was these like lofty ideas of these 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:21.760 like extremely pious people searching for freedom to practice their 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:26.960 faith freely. Is like it's like, well, that's one way 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:27.640 to tell it, you know. 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:28.800 Another way to. 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:32.400 Tell it is kind of what was the majority of it, 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:34.560 which was like you said, it's like people that ain't 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:37.000 gonna get no inheritance, why I'm gonna go try to 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:38.880 get some land and we're gonna go make some money. 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:43.160 This was a financial move for the vast majority of 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:44.920 people that came over here. It was a money move. 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:49.680 It wasn't like that's one group of and according to 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:52.360 the rest of the the rest of the year, like 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.520 the colonists coming from from Britain, like the pears Is 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:59.760 were weirdos, Like yeah, like y'all are y'all are religious weirdos? 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:01.440 Like we are here trying to get this bread. 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:03.280 You know, it's a fight. 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:05.080 Yeah, yeah, it's like you said. 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:08.280 Virginia was like yeah, no, We're like we try to 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:10.000 get this bread, like that's what we're here for. 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.960 Yeah, yeah, And that's what Dicky Lee is there for, right, 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:16.360 And he does pretty well in this position. He's able 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:18.800 to buy up huge tracts of land, which he works 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:22.640 with enslaved people. By his death in sixteen sixty four, 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.640 he presided over an empire for about sixteen thousand acres 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:29.240 in the northern Neck of Virginia. And this Lee is 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:31.360 the very first in his family line to serve during 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:33.880 a civil war, right, this is the English Civil War. 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:37.520 This is Cromwell versus the cavaliers. I think they're known 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:41.560 as right and obviously Cromwell wins. Unfortunately, one of we'll 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:43.880 be doing him. He's one of the very worst people 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:48.240 who ever lived. And kind of how this Lee makes 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:50.760 his name very differently from the last Roberty Lee, right, 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:53.880 who picks a side right away. This Lee's job, his 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:56.320 influence over the colonists, is to stop them from picking 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:58.720 a side until it's over. Basically, just like fucking we're 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:00.600 sitting there, we are about making money. We don't need 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:03.160 to get picking a sign we're not going to help 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.240 us and tell and then as soon as it becomes 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.040 clear Cromwell's winning, he's basically like, yeah, we thought you 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:10.640 were you were the tits this whole time, bro, congrats, 0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:14.080 you know. And in return Cromwell didn't kill everybody, which 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:17.600 was his his general move right. So when the war ends, 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:20.240 Lee had to like he had acquired this land during 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:22.320 the English Civil War, but like he hadn't been able 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.120 to actually like lock it in as a legal purchase 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.440 because you couldn't do that while the war was going on. 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:31.160 So after the war, he and his descendants, in order 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:34.680 to basically lock in their inheritance have to make friends, 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.440 make themselves into the patsies of the most powerful man 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.520 in the area or powerful family in the area, the Fairfaxes. 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:43.280 And they basically do this by becoming their tax collectors. 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:44.560 Right. That's the Lees. 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.880 Are like musclemen for the biggest guy in the Virginia 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:49.160 planter aristocracy. 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:49.720 Wow. 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:53.480 Yeah, and you know that they become in the generations 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:56.760 after Dickie Lee, they become like one of the biggest 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.480 families in terms of like wealth in the area. There 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:03.080 are about seven thousand tax paying white citizens in the neck. 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:05.880 That means men, right, we're saying men, there's more white 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:09.920 people than that. By the late seventeen hundreds, and basically 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:12.640 none of them owned significant land. Only one percent had 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:14.880 more than three hundred acres. So the Lees are part 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:20.000 of that one percent. Like most yeah, very rich, and 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:23.080 like most generationally wealthy families, the Lees are kind of 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:24.000 full of themselves. 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:24.960 You can see some. 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:27.719 Of this from the fact that our Robert's grandfather, his 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:30.720 thirty five hundred acre estate is named Lee's Sylvania. 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:34.160 Oh they love there's a good bit. 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:38.200 Actually there's seriously, that's like the lamest thing I've ever heard. Yeah, 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:42.120 my god, there's that movie, that musical seventeen seventy six. 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:43.840 I haven't watched it since I was a kid, but 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:47.719 it stars it stars mister Feene from a. 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:49.800 World to My high teacher made us watch it. 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:52.919 Yep, ye one of the I'm sure that movie's got 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:55.240 some problematic things, but one thing it does get accurate 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:57.720 is it it portrays Robert E. Lee's dad in this 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.520 and he's like naming everything after he has a whole 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:04.320 song where like everything is Lee, and that does seem 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.320 to be the family's thing, right, It's like we are 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:08.800 obsessed with ourselves. 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:10.399 That's hilarious. 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:14.480 Yeah, now that said Robert's father, who's going to be 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:18.120 Henry Lee is not. He's again kind of like their 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:20.679 first ancestor in the Americas. He's not one of the 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.760 wealthy Lees. Like his family is wealthy, but he's not 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:25.520 going to get a bunch of money on his own 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:27.879 because of I think just his position, Like he doesn't 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:29.520 get you can tell this. He doesn't get sent to 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:33.000 England to be educated like his cousins in Stratford. The 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:35.760 Stratford Les send their kids to England to be educated, 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:38.679 but Robert E. Lee's dad doesn't get that. 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:39.840 So yeah, we're. 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.600 Clearly we're talking like patrilineal, we're talking dad side of 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:43.000 the family. 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:44.440 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:47.119 So it's again, he's wealthy for normal people's standards, but 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.240 from the standards of the aristocracy, Robert E. Lee's dad 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:52.959 on his own isn't going to get the big payday 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.520 right now. The Lees put a lot of stock in 0:18:55.560 --> 0:18:58.200 being farmers. That is how they identify and it is 0:18:58.240 --> 0:19:01.080 important to note that when rich white people in this 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.320 period talk about being farmers, they are not doing any 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:08.280 real far out right no, absolutely not. And one of 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:11.119 the major sources for this episode is an excellent biography 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:13.840 of Lee by Alan Guelzo, And I'm going to read 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:16.680 a quote from that now talking about the degree to 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.000